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Fiery Diamond
2007-11-19, 06:25 PM
I got to thinking about the Weapon Finesse feat a long time ago. I decided that it left something to be desired. It uses Dex to replace Str for an attack roll, but doesn't help at all for damage rolls. Now, while this makes perfect sense, wouldn't it also make sense, flavorwise, if a character could use Dex on the damage roll? The amount of damage inflicted by an attack isn't always dependent on how hard the attack is, after all - look at the whole concept of sneak attacks and crits; they are based on precision rather than force. So, in my thoughts, it makes sense for someone to be trained in fighting in that method - focusing entirely on precision and not on force at all. For that purpose, I developed a new feat. Since I have recently joined (though I've been reading for years) I will now post that feat for review.:smallsmile:

Weapon Artistry
You have trained in the use of melee weapons which can benefit from Dexterity extensively. You focus entirely on attacking precisely to hit more vulnerable spots instead of using brute force.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1, Weapon Finesse
Benefit: Any weapon with which Weapon Finesse would work also works with Weapon Artistry. With such weapons, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on damage rolls as well as attack rolls. This cannot be used if you carry a shield.
Normal: Dexterity is not applied to damage rolls.
Special: A fighter may select Weapon Artistry as one of his fighter bonus feats.

I've used this created feat for a while, and I want to know what you people think - good:smalltongue: , bad:smallannoyed: , neutral:smallconfused: , and why.

- Fiery Diamond

shadow_archmagi
2007-11-19, 06:28 PM
Looks good to me. I too, have been bothered by the impossiblity of making a speed/style based fighter, rather than brute strength.

Fiery Diamond
2007-11-19, 06:34 PM
Thanks!:smallbiggrin: I'm glad to have a response, and not only that, a positive one! Please, welcome one, welcome all, make comments!

- Fiery Diamond

levi
2007-11-20, 06:38 AM
I've homebrew a feat that's basically the same exact thing. I called it Improved Weapon Finesse, you came up with a better name.

A few critques though. The restriction on using a sheild should be dropped. Using a sheild is already a suboptimal choice of fighting style in DnD, there is no need to penalize it further. (Heck, it should be dropped from WF as well.) Also, the requirement of a +1 BAB is unneeded, because Weapon Finesse implies that you have it already.

The wording could be cleaned up. I suggest the following:

With a weapon you may apply the Weapon Finesse feat to, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strenght modifier on damage rolls.

Also, the normal section is not required, because, like Weapon Finesse, the benifit section clearly explains the normal rules.

One thing I never considered with this feat until now is how it works when you weild a weapon two handed or in your off hand. Should you only get half your Dex mod on off hand attacks and one and a half your Dex mod on two handed attacks? I can see good arguments for doing it that way from both a fluff and cruch perspective.

Fluff wise, with two hands, you have more control, wereas your off hand tends to be less coordinated. Crunch wise, it works just like your Str bonus would, which is a good baseline to balance it from.

What do you think?

Riffington
2007-11-20, 06:56 AM
It's actually a fine feat, but be aware that it's campaign-changing.
The presence of this feat means that smaller races are reasonably powerful in combat, but will rarely bother with Strength. After all, they can have a single attribute govern AC, to-hit, and Damage. And they get the smaller-size bonus to hit/AC.

To fight them, larger strength-based fighters will basically need to use the strength tricks (disarm, trip, grapple)

The truly bizarre part of this is that it means Dex-based fighters are better suited to "run up and bash it" and that Strength-based fighters are better suited to situational special tricks.

Triaxx
2007-11-20, 08:54 AM
This certainly suits characters who might choose whips as weapons. I like it.

wadledo
2007-11-20, 12:45 PM
*cough*

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.
*cough*you need something like this*cough*

AstralFire
2007-11-20, 12:59 PM
Bad idea.

The problem with making a Dex-based Fighter lies in the Fighter's class design, not Str/Dex balancing. Dex is by far the better stat as it is, and this feat not only lets someone ignore Strength, it makes Dex so good it's broken.

The Swashbuckler isn't the best class ever, but its Int-to-damage which doesn't work on things immune to crits is a much better mechanic.

prufock
2007-11-20, 01:23 PM
I'm going to disagree with some of levi's criticisms. I'll explain:


Also, the requirement of a +1 BAB is unneeded, because Weapon Finesse implies that you have it already.
That's just convention in the way feats are written. See the Power Attack chain - they all list "Str 13" as a prerequisite, even though you can assume the character already has it since it's needed for Power attack.


The wording could be cleaned up. I suggest the following:

With a weapon you may apply the Weapon Finesse feat to, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strenght modifier on damage rolls.
Dude, do you really want to end the first phrase with a preposition?


One thing I never considered with this feat until now is how it works when you weild a weapon two handed or in your off hand. Should you only get half your Dex mod on off hand attacks and one and a half your Dex mod on two handed attacks? I can see good arguments for doing it that way from both a fluff and cruch perspective.

Fluff wise, with two hands, you have more control, wereas your off hand tends to be less coordinated. Crunch wise, it works just like your Str bonus would, which is a good baseline to balance it from.

One at a time:
I think off-hand penalties for dexterity-based attacks should be analogous to those with strength-based attacks. You're right, the lack of coordination with your off-hand should mean half your dexterity bonus to damage.
Two-handed fighting with Weapon Artistry, though, seems outside the flavour of the idea. The weapons that the feat applies to are light weapons and weapons that traditionally are used one-handed. I don't think two-handed wielding should affect the dexterity bonus. You don't really use whips, rapiers, daggers, or nunchuku two-handed.

So, on the topic of rewording:

Weapon Artistry [General]
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1, Weapon Finesse
Benefit: With any weapon to which Weapon Finesse applies, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. You apply half your Dexterity modifier to attacks made with your off hand. Your Dexterity bonus is not multiplied when wielding a weapon with two hands.
Special: A fighter may select Weapon Artistry as one of his fighter bonus feats.

levi
2007-11-20, 05:12 PM
That wording is better than mine. The rearangement to place the preposition in the proper location makes it flow a lot smoother. Honestly, grammer sometimes isn't my strongest suit. I was basically cribing the text of the text of Weapon Finesse and when I replaced the weapon list, I did so ungramatically. I was more conserned with consistancy with other feats than grammer, so I ended up making a poor choice. Nice that you caught it, thanks.

As for the +1 BAB, I know that ability scores and some other prereqs are repeated even when not strictly neccessary. However, in the case of BAB specifically, I looked at the Weapon Focus tree. This is the only core tree that has a BAB requirement on the first feat. The later feats in the tree don't have the BAB req listed. Perhaps it's just a bug?

I can agree with the restrictions on weilding two handed. After thinking about it some more, there is no core weapon that can be Finessed and weilded two handed for extra damage. Light weapons cannot be wielded two handed for extra damage and the rapier has a special rule that says it cannot be. Spiked chains are a double weapon, so they can't be either. Whips are so odd, I'm not sure what to think. Outside of core, there is the Elven Thinblade, but I'll pretend that doesn't exist (like I always do).

Therefor, even without the clarifing text, I don't think that it'd be possible to get one and half Dex mod to damge. (The reason being that you can't get one and a half Str to damage whith a Finessable weapon.) Of course, the clarifications are a good addition. Nice work all around.

As for all the moaning about how this makes Dex broken and stuff, I have to disagree. Admitedly, Dex is a good stat. It governs many things and could be considered to be a bit unbalanced. However, I don't think this feat would be the straw that breaks the chocobo's back. While it does basically allow dumping Str, there are a lot of feats and other things that allow for applying this mod to that roll and so forth. Perhaps the whole idea of using a stat other than the "proper" one for various things is wrong, but we didn't start the idea, we simply used it.

Besides which, I think the actual effect on damage output is being overestimated. With finesse weapons, damage output is inherently lower than with non-finesse weapons. They are smaller, which means that thier damage die is smaller. They also cannot be used two handed for a 2-for-1 power attack. I don't think the few extra points gained from this feat will push them over the top. Weapon Finesse is probably a stronger feat than this one.

Charlie Kemek
2007-11-20, 05:28 PM
You should add the following prestiqute: Dexterity 13/15, etc, what ever you want. I think you should make a feat (actually, i'll make it) like:
Extended weapon finense [general]
prestiquets: weapon finnense, weapon focus with the chosen weapon, Dex 13, (weapon artistary?), BAB +1.
Benifits: choose a weapon you have chosen weapon focus with. you may now use weapon finnense with that weapon, and any feats releated to it.
Normal: you may not use weapon finninse with that weapon

any opinions? sorry if i took away your spotlight.:smallbiggrin:

Riffington
2007-11-20, 08:28 PM
Therefor, even without the clarifing text, I don't think that it'd be possible to get one and half Dex mod to damge. (The reason being that you can't get one and a half Str to damage whith a Finessable weapon.) Of course, the clarifications are a good addition. Nice work all around.


Spiked Chain, good sir.
Note that I'm not saying it's too powerful. Three feats to be able to make a fighter who relies on only one attribute is good. But it's weird that the main disadvantage of this style is that Strength fighters get more special tricks against them, like trip/etc.

prufock
2007-11-20, 09:24 PM
As for the +1 BAB, I know that ability scores and some other prereqs are repeated even when not strictly neccessary. However, in the case of BAB specifically, I looked at the Weapon Focus tree. This is the only core tree that has a BAB requirement on the first feat. The later feats in the tree don't have the BAB req listed. Perhaps it's just a bug?

Good point. I think it's because "fighter level 4th" is listed as a prerequisite, which is more specific than "base attack bonus +4" but includes it. In that case, fighter level would trump the BAB requirement.

Either way, I guess it isn't really important since - whether you state it explicitly or not - the BAB requirement is covered anyway.

AstralFire
2007-11-20, 09:26 PM
A rapier held in two hands.

Riffington
2007-11-20, 09:32 PM
A rapier held in two hands.

That one doesn't work (with Strength at least), because it's a light weapon. I don't know offhand of any finessable nonlight weapons other than spiked chain. Which, incidentally, it's possible to get Dex added to damage with already, since it's a Shadow Hand weapon. Just not x1.5 for the 2handedness.

Dullyanna
2007-11-20, 10:08 PM
@AstralFire: It's explicitly stated that the rapier is a finessable one-hander, and it's also explicitly stated that you can't wield it in two hands like you could with a longsword. In other words, it's a light weapon in all but name (Except when it comes to TWF).

levi
2007-11-22, 03:16 AM
Dullyanna is correct. (Nice avatar BTW.) The rapier is only psudo-light.

As for the BAB thing, that does make sense. It should proably be listed explicitly.

Rowanomicon
2007-11-22, 03:59 AM
I'd just like to say that I like both the feats in this thread and I don't think that either of them is over-powered.

Of course I may be bias because I love Dex based melee combatants, but I doubt it.:smallwink:

Ceiling009
2007-11-22, 10:58 PM
The only finesseable two handers come from the Races of the Wild book, the Elven Courtblade, and the much better blade from Iron Kingdoms, the Nyss Claymore. In fact, in IK there's a racial (Nyss) only feat that lets you use dex for damage with the claymore. I always figured you'd do it like strength, and multiply the damage by 1.5, cause instead of using sheer power to add more damage, you're more or less gouging or at least moving the blade in such a way that it just hurts more.

Heliomance
2007-11-23, 03:31 AM
Quarterstaff can be wielded two-handed and finessed.

Charlie Kemek
2007-11-23, 12:09 PM
as can all the simple weapons, and the spiked chain:smalltongue:

Xyk
2007-11-23, 12:13 PM
Quarterstaff can be wielded two-handed and finessed.
no, it can't. And i quote


Quarterstaff: The quarterstaff is the favorite weapon of many
characters, from travelers, peasants, and merchants to monks,
rangers, and wizards. A quarterstaff is a double weapon. You can
fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur
all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two
weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light
weapon (see Two-Weapon Fighting, page 160). You can also strike
with either end singly, a fact that allows you to take full advantage of
openings in your opponent’s defenses. A creature wielding a
quarterstaff in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one
end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
The quarterstaff is a special monk weapon. This designation gives
a monk (see Chapter 3: Classes) wielding a quarterstaff special
options straight from the book.

Xyk
2007-11-23, 12:19 PM
no, it can't. And i quote[QUOTE]Quarterstaff: The quarterstaff is the favorite weapon of many
characters, from travelers, peasants, and merchants to monks,
rangers, and wizards. A quarterstaff is a double weapon. You can
fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur
all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two
weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light
weapon (see Two-Weapon Fighting, page 160). You can also strike
with either end singly, a fact that allows you to take full advantage of
openings in your opponent’s defenses. A creature wielding a
quarterstaff in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one
end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
The quarterstaff is a special monk weapon. This designation gives
a monk (see Chapter 3: Classes) wielding a quarterstaff special
options

and no, simple weapons cannot be finessed. The feat says, with a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category.

All of this is straight from the phb. edit: and i accidentally hit quote instead of edit, sorry guys.

Charlie Kemek
2007-11-23, 12:34 PM
oops, my bad, i mixed up light weapons and simple weapons, sorry:smallredface:

truemane
2007-11-23, 01:07 PM
As for the +1 BAB, I know that ability scores and some other prereqs are repeated even when not strictly neccessary. However, in the case of BAB specifically, I looked at the Weapon Focus tree. This is the only core tree that has a BAB requirement on the first feat. The later feats in the tree don't have the BAB req listed. Perhaps it's just a bug?

Remember that different races and classes can gain access to feats without meeting the prereq's, and that those feats can be used to meet the pre-req's of other feats. By repeating the Str 13 requirement (for example) on all the feats in the chain, the game reinforces that, just because you can Power Attack doesn't mean you can Cleave, you STILL need 13 Str, even you got Power Attack from other source.

Like an item, or an enchantment, or whichever.

As such, I would certainly keep the +1 requirement, just in case some 1st level Monk acquires Weapon Finesse from some odd source.

Otherwise, great feat.

SoD
2007-11-23, 01:08 PM
In regards to how some people have been talking about how there's no need for strength, and how the tiny people will suddenly be uberpowerful, maybe if you only add ½ your dex modifier or something like that? Or 3/4 or something?

Heliomance
2007-11-23, 01:12 PM
no, it can't. And i quote

~snip~You can also strike
with either end singly, a fact that allows you to take full advantage of
openings in your opponent’s defenses.~snip~

straight from the book.
You can use either end singly, only attacking once. You are holding it in two hands. I'd say that's using it as a two handed weapon.

truemane
2007-11-23, 01:20 PM
In regards to how some people have been talking about how there's no need for strength, and how the tiny people will suddenly be uberpowerful, maybe if you only add ½ your dex modifier or something like that? Or 3/4 or something?

That's not necessary. It's a self-correcting issue. Sure the smaller races can become powerful melee combatants without Strength, but they need to have two feats to do it.

So, yes, a 1st level Halfling Fighter gets to use Dex on damage, but the same 1st level Half-Orc Fighter with a high strength can use Power Attack and have an additional +1 to hit with his longsword (Weapon Focus), thereby giving the human the advantage.

Fiery Diamond
2007-11-24, 12:44 AM
Thanks for all the comments! I really like the reviews. I agree with what truemane says as far as why this doesn't overpower the little guy to be better than the big guy. Yeah, I really appreciate all this feedback. I feel validated now.:smallbiggrin:

- Fiery Diamond

RTGoodman
2007-11-24, 12:55 AM
A few critques though. The restriction on using a sheild should be dropped. Using a sheild is already a suboptimal choice of fighting style in DnD, there is no need to penalize it further. (Heck, it should be dropped from WF as well.)

I don't know about that. The most over-looked part of Weapon Finesse (that I just found out about a few months ago) is bolded here:


WEAPON FINESSE [GENERAL]

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.


I think adding the same thing to your feat would be better than just saying you can't use the feat if you have a shield.

Otherwise, looks good.

levi
2007-11-28, 12:14 AM
Well, I'm aware of the penalty for sheild use on Weapon Finesse. However, I suggested dropping the related restriction for Weapon Artistry, because sheild use, in general, is suboptimal, so penalizing a character for it is silly. Thus I also suggested dropping it from Weapon Finesse.