Harry Potter 1: flaw?

[Icewalker]

Something that seems obvious that I never noticed before. It appears to be a pretty notable flaw in the first Harry Potter book.

It isn't a very large flaw, but storywise it would have caused a bit of a dead-end.


They go through all these challenges at the end, yadda yadda, logic puzzle, plants which Hermione figures out and gets through, catching keys, not necessarily in this order, etc.

But there is the chess game. One would assume, being that this is supposed to keep others out, that the chess game would be hard to beat. So one could assume that...whatever is playing the other pieces would be extremely good at chess, so as to stop people from getting through. So how is it beaten by a 10-year old? :smalleek:

I'm guessing either this is just a flaw, or I'm missing something, having not read the book in a while. Was there some reason people were supposed to be able to get through? Is Ron actually an insanely skilled chess prodigy who somehow never drew enough attention to actually compete or anything?

[Destro_Yersul]

I think the point was that Ron was just really good at chess. That and they had three people playing, instead of just one. Bet you the other pieces were supposed to not only win, but try and incapacitate the human element while doing so.

[Dhavaer]

Ron would actually be 12 by the time of the giant chess game, but yes, he is very, very good at chess.

[Icewalker]

Nonetheless, it seems like setting up a chess game that can be beaten by a pre-teen who is anything short of a genius or prodigy seems odd to me.

And, although I'm not sure about Harry, doesn't Hermione go on earlier in the book on how she doesn't know anything about chess?

If the opposing side was trying to attack the human element in particular, then it makes more sense. Another disadvantage and much, much harder programming to that side.

[Dhavaer]

Harry seems to be average at chess, and Hermione is never seen to play. It's possible she doesn't know how.

The chess board seemed to be stuck in an extremely aggressive playstyle, as well, so it wouldn't be too difficult to out-think it.

[Icewalker]

Makes sense.

Nonetheless, if 11/12 year olds, even really good 11/12 year olds can get past it, it doesn't seem like much of a challenge. I suppose the idea that a single person was expected and it would kill/stop them regardless may make sense though.

[Dhavaer]

It would have been a challenge for anyone not particularly good at chess, that being most people. Of course, the why you wouldn't just have the pieces smash anyone who tried getting through the door without a password or something escapes me.

[Exeson]

one of the guys at my school is the international chess champion, he is 11 or twelve I think and he plays and regularly wins against people who are 18 and play for the school team. He also started playing chess since he was 3, well learning how the pieces moved, so I would not say it is a flaw.

[Glaivemaster]

It may also be that the skill of the chess pieces is based on the skill of the caster of the magic. If Professor McGonagal (or however it's spelled) isn't brilliant at chess, or not as good as Ron, then that would explain why Ron can beat the game

[factotum]

Well, in that case why would they set up a trap using one of their weaker skills? They'd have to KNOW that someone would eventually come along who would outplay it.

Having said that, it is entirely possible for children of age 12 to be Chess Grand Masters or equivalent...maybe Ron counts as one. If he wasn't a wizard, he might be playing international chess championships or something!

[WillWolf]

The other thing is that the game must be able to be beaten by someone of at least average to slightly above average inteligence in general, after all I highly doubt that Flitwick, bless his tiny soul, would be able to defeat it.

Other solutions are that the spell potency itself was weakened after Voldemort played it and won.

And it's entirely possible that he is a bit of a chess prodigy as well. In a world full of people who can cast so much magic, I'd highly doubt that anyone would really care about somone able to play chess very well. Nor would he be picked up by the muggle circuit as I'm sure that the family wants to be more or less underwraps in general.


In general the spells are meant to be a sort of Jack-of-all-trades thing to prevent a gifted chess player from defeating the one and only problem, but to slow everyone down as they continued through. Thus as a general rule a person should just be good at whatever they do not specifically enhanced in one area.

[WarriorTribble]

Maybe Slytherins just have a pathological hatred for Chess? :smalltongue: But ya it doesn't make any sense at all. The only excuse I can think of is from the HunterXHunter series where if you give your opponent the chance to enter your barrier, the actually strength of the barrier itself increases as a psychosomatic result. Course there's no canon proof of this.

[Dervag]

Nonetheless, it seems like setting up a chess game that can be beaten by a pre-teen who is anything short of a genius or prodigy seems odd to me.There may be a practical limit on how smart you can design the spell. What examples do we have of intelligent spells in the Harry Potter setting?

[factotum]

There may be a practical limit on how smart you can design the spell. What examples do we have of intelligent spells in the Harry Potter setting?

If it's a limitation of the spell then that just takes us back to the basic question--WHY make a trap that is so easy to get past? If you can animate full-size chess pieces, you might as well just animate a whole load of Knights and command them to spear anyone who walks in without wearing an appropriate sign. (But of course the Harry Potter series would have been rather shorter if the trap had worked that way, since Harry, Hermione and Ron would all be skewered right sharpish :smallbiggrin: ).

[Xect]

It's just one of those "for plot reasons" things. HP is riddled with them.

- Why can a group of teenage wizards do things that most masters would consider impossible?

- Why doesn't the same group of teenage wizards, of whom two have lived most of their lives among non-magical people, decide to drop the tradition of sending owls and use cell-phones when the whole world is at stake?

- Why does a muggleborn elite student still use a quill, not a pen, when taking her notes?

- Why is HP hailed as an impressive wizard in the end of every book when he really is mediocre with regards to his magical skills, his judgment and his temper and very few of 'his' achievements can be accredited to him?

- Now that HP is hailed as an impressive wizard, who does no one take him seriously for the first 3/4ths of the next book when checking the validity of his claims would be a minor thing?

- Who selects the minister for magic, and why are they so incompetent?

- Why does even a muggle-interested wizard know so little about muggles? It's not like the muggles are hiding their existence from the wizards.

All in all, the Harry Potter books present an impressive piece of storytelling, but it can't be credited for a great deal of consistency or logic. The universe is thin as a sheet of paper.

[Tirian]

The chess game is just one part of the gantlet that you have to run to get to the Stone. To meet the entire challenge, you need basic appreciation of wizard chess plus you need to be a talented seeker, familiar with magical flora and fauna, and Socratic logic (which, for all I know, doesn't come up in the general wizarding curriculum). Once you do all of that, you're standing in front of the Mirror of Erised, which is a sufficiently challenging problem to stand alone, plus somewhere along the line Dumbledore was alerted to your presence in the gantlet.

And the other thing about the chess game is Ron required a sacrifice (namely himself) in order for the others to proceed, which is probably not the designed solution if we want to assume that Dumbledore wished at some point to cross the chamber alone. If Voldemort didn't want to acquire another henchman at this point, he would have needed to be a much better thinker than Ron. And as someone upthread suggested, it is likely that senior Death Eaters do not concern themselves with trivial aspects of wizarding culture. Perhaps it would have amused Dumbledore to force Tom Riddle to master wizard chess?

The thing that always disgusted me about the climax is that the Stone was perfectly safe from Voldemort until Harry callously disregarded everyone's orders and acquired it himself, yet he was rewarded for his foolishness by being the savior of the House Cup. In one of the final books, I believe there was the offhand suggestion that Dumbledore created all of the challenges to test Harry rather than Voldemort, so as to prepare him for the time when the prophecy would come to fruition. If that is the case, then perhaps Ron found the intended solution after all, and the point was to teach Harry that part of his strength was the intelligence and dedication of his friends.

[PsyBlade]

Above poster makes sense.

[Sir_Norbert]

Let's face it -- the chess game is there for drama and not as something that's meant to be analysed. JKR famously and repeatedly said she's no good at maths each time someone pointed out a maths-related problem, and I'm guessing she's not much good at chess either. So let's not try to analyse it.

Ron was giving himself an enormous handicap -- he had to keep Harry and his king safe from capture (and himself and Hermione, at least until the very end) while the other side only had to protect their king. Just try playing a real game of chess with those odds and, unless your opponent is a lot weaker than you, you'll get trounced. So we have to assume McGonagall was a very weak player indeed....

...and Ron can't be a much better one, or he would have realised that the obvious thing to do was to make Harry the king. There is actually no possible chess reason why he should have made the choices he did about who should be which piece; that was just part of the drama.

[....]

Nonetheless, it seems like setting up a chess game that can be beaten by a pre-teen who is anything short of a genius or prodigy seems odd to me.

Uh, the Harry Potter crew regularly beats much more skilled wizards with a combination of spunk and moxie.

Its like a bad anime, where the power of friendship and love always suceeds.

[Leper_Kahn]

I think the game was designed to be just hard enough that people would have trouble getting in, but easy enough so that the owner of the Stone-thing could get in. A.K.A. The most unoriginal theft plot device.

(I also it's funny that "Wizards Chess" is the same as normal chess, but with moving pieces. Another reason I think that J.K. Rowling isn't such a great writer.)

P.S.

This:

Uh, the Harry Potter crew regularly beats much more skilled wizards with a combination of spunk and moxie.

Its like a bad anime, where the power of friendship and love always suceeds.

Is also 100% right..

[Sir_Norbert]

- Who selects the minister for magic, and why are they so incompetent?
The general wizarding population selects them, which is why they are so incompetent. Same as real-life politicians. :elan:

[Jannex]

The logical snag that made me really beat my head against the wall occured several books later...

In book 5, after the whole Umbridge incident and the fiasco at the Ministry of Magic, we "discover" (read: had largely suspected from the beginning) that if Harry hadn't been such a petulant brat during the summer and had opened his birthday present from Sirius (y'know, the one about which Sirius pretty much said, "use this if you need to complain to me about Snape"?), he could have rather neatly avoided the whole mess. That isn't even the bad part; we can forgive the boy for allowing this to slip his mind in the heat of the moment. The bad part is that, upon discovering this fact, Harry doesn't seem to react to the fact, or even realize, that his need to wallow in teenage angst earlier that year resulted directly in the climax of book 5 blowing up rather spectacularly in his face.

Gah. [/rant]

[warty goblin]

Well, there's also the massive and festering continuity error about underage magic. It goes from "the ministry can detect what magic is cast, but not who casts it" to "The ministry knows if someone under 17 casts a spell". What's really amazing about this is that even changing the detection methods around like this doesn't solve any of the problems it set out to avoid. If the Ministry can in fact detect what magic is cast, then in Book 6 it should have been glaringly obvious that Tom Riddle messed with Morphin, since the Ministry would have picked up a really high power memory charm where there was no reason to be one. I'm forced to assume further Ministry incompitance.
Also, if under the earlier interpretation the Ministry can detect what magic is cast, how on earth did Voldemort ever manage to hide out for so long, given his tendancy to use illigal and dark magic?

Apparently the Ministry of Magic operates a "Magical Plot Device Center", also called the Department of Mysteries, or "Applied Phlebotinum 'Secure' Storage".

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Well, there's also the massive and festering continuity error about underage magic. It goes from "the ministry can detect what magic is cast, but not who casts it" to "The ministry knows if someone under 17 casts a spell". What's really amazing about this is that even changing the detection methods around like this doesn't solve any of the problems it set out to avoid. If the Ministry can in fact detect what magic is cast, then in Book 6 it should have been glaringly obvious that Tom Riddle messed with Morphin, since the Ministry would have picked up a really high power memory charm where there was no reason to be one. I'm forced to assume further Ministry incompitance.
Also, if under the earlier interpretation the Ministry can detect what magic is cast, how on earth did Voldemort ever manage to hide out for so long, given his tendancy to use illigal and dark magic?

Apparently the Ministry of Magic operates a "Magical Plot Device Center", also called the Department of Mysteries, or "Applied Phlebotinum 'Secure' Storage".

well, we also know that if noone can tell who does the magic, then noone knows who did a memory charm there, just that an underage wizard preformed magic at that location...their records would have indicated that an underage wizard also went and killed the Riddles...oops...after the trace was gone, he could have cast magic with impunity and noone would have been able to tell if magic was performed without investigating the site. Though...I think they said the trace was more like...if anyone uses magic in the vicinity of an underage wizard it shows up on the trace...that is why they didn't use magic to transport Harry in the last book, if they did, any use of magic would have dinged their location, not who...just their location.

In the 2nd book, they picked up the hover charm and assumed it was harry since he was the only wizard in the house as far as their records could tell. How they didn't also pick up the apperation and disapperation of Doddy is unknown, but could be part of the magic of house elves since they can apparently apperate and disapperate out of warded areas with ease and even bring in and out humans.

Which leads to the biggest hole in book 7 that I could find really...

Bill is 'Secret Keeper' for Shell Cottage...only Bill can give away the location of the place...the rest of the trio don't see Bill until after they arrive while escaping the Malfoy Mannor. Ron tells Doddy where the cottage is (not sure if it would have been possible to also make Ron a secret keeper after the fact, but unlikely) but tels him very vaguely....Dobby is then able to teleport people there onto the cottage grounds.

If house elves could do that...why didn't they just use Dobby or any other house elf to take them into warded areas before? Hell, why didn't they just have kreecher take them to Hogwarts, why not use dobby to fetch Harry from Privett drive...the apperation of House elves is obviously untracable...

Ok, I know when dealing with magic, anything is possible...there could be minor incantatons that block detection, other ways of hiding...but some of the screwy things left minor logical goofs that just leave you scratching your head.

[YPU]

I can be wrong on this one, but wasn’t the point that they were pure of hart and had pure intensions, that being the reason why they were capable of passing the tests, the chess tests was supposed to show somebody’s personality.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

I can be wrong on this one, but wasn’t the point that they were pure of hart and had pure intensions, that being the reason why they were capable of passing the tests, the chess tests was supposed to show somebody’s personality.

heh...no, the tests were designed to prevent people from reaching the stone...the test of the stone itself was such that it tested the intentions of the seeker. Since Harry's intentions were 'pure' to gain the stone, but not use it, he was able to retrieve the stone...however, if he had not gone down after the stone, there would have been no danger at all since Voldy would have been unable to retrieve it unless he could have deciphered the spell and unravled it.

What got me about the tests was this...why didn't they just kill the dog? Why the subterfuge, if you were going to just bypass everything and strike when Dumbledore wasn't there...why not just kill fluffy...would seem easy enough to shoot him from the hall with stunners or a few killing spells where he couldn't go since he was chained down...easy pickings.

The devil's snare was easy enough since many would just blast it away anyways, several ways out of it...flames, reducto, immobilization...good swordwork...

the key could just have easily been grabbed by an animated glove/object flying around, or a good enough summons spell. Or one could simply have another key.

the chess game is easy...confund the board...suggest that it surrender, walk on by...if one is capable of hoodwinking artifacts, then it proves that it is possible to fool lasting 'AI' enchantments...thus, the game can be confunded...might also explain why Ron beat it...one, he was good, but he might have also had the help of a board that was hit with the stupid stick.

the logic game...easy...if you knew the nature of the other traps, this is cake...be able to supress the flames with some other spell, or mix potions that will protect you, same as the ones in the room...

[The Extinguisher]

Why didn't they just eat Gilligan?

[Solo]

Why didn't they just eat Gilligan?

Cause then there wouldn't have been a story to write about.

[....]

A lot of the errors make it very, very clear that the books were not planned in advance. At all.

Which is fine, most writers don't know everything thats going to happen, but a lot of people seem to think that Rowling put more effort into world building than Tolkien did.

And the most annoying thing to me was how hard it was for wizards to 'get' muggles. Like its SO hard to realize you should wear jeans and a shirt and shoes on your feet?

[Dervag]

(I also it's funny that "Wizards Chess" is the same as normal chess, but with moving pieces. Another reason I think that J.K. Rowling isn't such a great writer.)Maybe it's the other way around, and normal chess is the same as wizards' chess, only with stationary pieces.


The bad part is that, upon discovering this fact, Harry doesn't seem to react to the fact, or even realize, that his need to wallow in teenage angst earlier that year resulted directly in the climax of book 5 blowing up rather spectacularly in his face.

Gah. [/rant]This is by no means unusual behavior even among relatively intelligent teenagers.


Also, if under the earlier interpretation the Ministry can detect what magic is cast, how on earth did Voldemort ever manage to hide out for so long, given his tendancy to use illigal and dark magic? Perhaps there are screening techniques?

A lot of the errors make it very, very clear that the books were not planned in advance. At all.

Which is fine, most writers don't know everything thats going to happen, but a lot of people seem to think that Rowling put more effort into world building than Tolkien did.The problem is that a lot of Tolkien's world building is subtextual- little references that don't stick in the average reader's mind. You know that the heroes run around referencing this mythology about elven heroes; you don't know that Tolkien actually wrote all that mythology over a five or ten year period

Whereas with Rowling, there are an enormous number of things in the world. Many people mistake depth of world building for the number of interesting things to be found in that world, that leads them to think that Rowling built a deep world.

Also, the serial nature of the books (the last one only just came out recently, after all) means that you don't have so many people who read all the books in rapid succession and noticed the inconsistencies. A generation from now more people will have noticed that, I think.

[....]

Also, the serial nature of the books (the last one only just came out recently, after all) means that you don't have so many people who read all the books in rapid succession and noticed the inconsistencies. A generation from now more people will have noticed that, I think.

The thing that always sticks in my mind is that in book 1 the thing Dumbledore uses to extinguish the lights is called a 'Put-Outer'.

In the last book they call it a 'Deluminator'.

Dumbledore didn't strike me as a guy who'd use the wrong name for a magical device.

[Rutee]

My wall banger was in book 4, and it goes by two words; Veritas Serum.

Somehow the thought of giving it to Sirius when he says "Seriously doods, it wasn't me!" never comes to anyone's mind. Even when they're actively trying to prove his innocence, and know that a drug that can reliably force people to tell the truth would work /wonders/ would do the trick. Never you mind the idiocy of a government not having a ready supply of it to at /least/ use if either A: The defendant is willing to pay the expense of creation or B: In ridiculously important, high-profile cases. Like, I don't know, every single Death Eater Trial. Ever. I sincerely doubt that any sum of cash would have protected what's-his-face Malfoy's father if he was on record as saying "Yeah, no, I did it all on purpose and I'd do it again in a minute! Mwahahahahaha!"

Just, /gah/.

As to the OP's flaw, I assumed that the chess set was designed to be beatable in the first place. It's a test, not an impenetrable hazard. Assuming they weren't smacked by plot-induced stupidity (See above), they could have made much better ways to actually keep people out. Or just outright destroyed it. It was supposed to be retrievable (For some reason or other), but really freaking hard to retrieve.

[EvilElitest]

Nonetheless, it seems like setting up a chess game that can be beaten by a pre-teen who is anything short of a genius or prodigy seems odd to me.

And, although I'm not sure about Harry, doesn't Hermione go on earlier in the book on how she doesn't know anything about chess?

If the opposing side was trying to attack the human element in particular, then it makes more sense. Another disadvantage and much, much harder programming to that side.

I think the chess game is just ment to slow down any attacker, not activlly defeat them. Most wizards aren't very logical, and one who is not good at chess would be stumped here anyways
from,
EE

[Fuzzy_Juan]

My wall banger was in book 4, and it goes by two words; Veritas Serum.

Somehow the thought of giving it to Sirius when he says "Seriously doods, it wasn't me!" never comes to anyone's mind. Even when they're actively trying to prove his innocence, and know that a drug that can reliably force people to tell the truth would work /wonders/ would do the trick. Never you mind the idiocy of a government not having a ready supply of it to at /least/ use if either A: The defendant is willing to pay the expense of creation or B: In ridiculously important, high-profile cases. Like, I don't know, every single Death Eater Trial. Ever. I sincerely doubt that any sum of cash would have protected what's-his-face Malfoy's father if he was on record as saying "Yeah, no, I did it all on purpose and I'd do it again in a minute! Mwahahahahaha!"

Just, /gah/.

As to the OP's flaw, I assumed that the chess set was designed to be beatable in the first place. It's a test, not an impenetrable hazard. Assuming they weren't smacked by plot-induced stupidity (See above), they could have made much better ways to actually keep people out. Or just outright destroyed it. It was supposed to be retrievable (For some reason or other), but really freaking hard to retrieve.

they did mention that there were a myriad of ways to fool veritas serum, but when administered properly and when the subject had no time to prepare, it would work just fine.

As far as Rowling planning things out in advance...she did...in fact, she has shelves full of background material on every single character and had the main plot points worked out from the beginning. It was just the various details that fleshed out each story that weren't done until the books were written...during that process and the editing were a few things added and snipped.

Arthur Weasley is a great example of something major changing...slotted to die in book 5, gets a reprieve. Jo just can't kill him...as nearly an afterthought, and just to make more of an impact, two deaths were added to the final book...it is pretty obvious that the deaths were kinda last minute adds...but there you go.

remember...even if the whole story is planned out in outline...things can radically change...J. Michael Strazynski wrote all 5 years of Babylon 5 in outline with the episodes pretty much planned out...and had to make some major changes that compressed years 4 and 5 into year 4, slapped the 'real' end into the middle of season 3 and made year 5 actually year 6 in the story but oops...year 5 we'll call it.

[WarriorTribble]

Well since the discussion has turned to plot holes in the HP series, I'd like to ask why the Ministry was so damn stingy over using the magic nullifying waterfall throughout the entire series. It's like magical artifacts only exist to help or hinder the main characters, before then they're just... forgotten.

[Manga Shoggoth]

It's just one of those "for plot reasons" things. HP is riddled with them.

Off the top of my head:


- Why can a group of teenage wizards do things that most masters would consider impossible?

Plot. It's a children's story. Children's stories tend not to be about adults.


- Why doesn't the same group of teenage wizards, of whom two have lived most of their lives among non-magical people, decide to drop the tradition of sending owls and use cell-phones when the whole world is at stake?

Documented in story - technological artefacts do not work in Hogwarts. Also most magical people (mostly the ones that need to be reached) don't have mobiles. Have you noticed how owls have better coverage than most mobile operators?


- Why does a muggleborn elite student still use a quill, not a pen, when taking her notes?

I still use a fountain pen, which is basically a quill with an ink tank. My father frequently used a quill when doing proper caligraphy.


- Why is HP hailed as an impressive wizard in the end of every book when he really is mediocre with regards to his magical skills, his judgment and his temper and very few of 'his' achievements can be accredited to him?

His reputation comes from the initial defeat of Voldemort (before the book starts). The wizarding cummunity at large do not know how this happened, so the natural assumption is that he was a powerful wizard from birth. The people who know him do not credit him as such.

(When the Malfoys are doing it it is sarcasm, by the way...)


- Now that HP is hailed as an impressive wizard, who does no one take him seriously for the first 3/4ths of the next book when checking the validity of his claims would be a minor thing?

Such as whom? Many of the adults who know him do take him seriously. Note the discussion about Sirius' fate at the end of book 3.


- Who selects the minister for magic, and why are they so incompetent?

Who said they were incompetent? We only see a small aspect of their work, when they are essentially up against Voldemort.

Besides, this is a common stereotype of UK Parlimentary ministers - watch "Yes Minister" for more...


- Why does even a muggle-interested wizard know so little about muggles? It's not like the muggles are hiding their existence from the wizards.

No, but the Wizards are generally in a small close-knit community. You always get funny ideas about outsiders in such communities.

(When I was working out in the states I met several people who were convinced that England was well out in the sticks. I had to politely explain to them that yes, I knew what coffee was, and in England we drink tea properly* - hot, with milk)

* If I remember correctly, originally Coffee was eaten, rather than drunk...


All in all, the Harry Potter books present an impressive piece of storytelling, but it can't be credited for a great deal of consistency or logic. The universe is thin as a sheet of paper.

Most fictional universes are. The Harry Potter ones are remarkably consistent given how long they took to write. A lot of the story threads are consistent across the series of books.

[Dhavaer]

The thing that always sticks in my mind is that in book 1 the thing Dumbledore uses to extinguish the lights is called a 'Put-Outer'.

In the last book they call it a 'Deluminator'.

Dumbledore didn't strike me as a guy who'd use the wrong name for a magical device.

Dumbledore never actually named it in the first book; 'Put-Outer' was a purely descriptive term used by the narrator.

[Wraith]

There are NO plot holes in Harry Potter.

If there is something you didn't understand; a Wizard did it.

:smallbiggrin:

[TheRiov]

It's just one of those "for plot reasons" things. HP is riddled with them.

- Why can a group of teenage wizards do things that most masters would consider impossible?

daring counts for a lot. No one expected gringotts to be assaulted. They were also clearly identified and already on the run, something Quirrell managed to avoid


- Why doesn't the same group of teenage wizards, of whom two have lived most of their lives among non-magical people, decide to drop the tradition of sending owls and use cell-phones when the whole world is at stake?

Magic tends to fritz up technology. Clearly stated in book 4.


- Why does a muggleborn elite student still use a quill, not a pen, when taking her notes?

The quills used have spell checking, are self inking, etc. This is mentioned in several places. The use of parchment over notebook paper is a bit baffling but one assumes the paper is enchanted too with anti-cheating spells, etc.


- Why is HP hailed as an impressive wizard in the end of every book when he really is mediocre with regards to his magical skills, his judgment and his temper and very few of 'his' achievements can be accredited to him?

Gildroy Lockhart was famed too. But I think the whole point is not that Harry did things others COULDN'T do, but that he did the thing that others WOULDN'T do. He took responsiblity to do what no others were willing to do. His primary skills (quick reflexes, operates well under pressure, excellent flyer) served him well, past a certain threshold raw power and overarching knowledge of spells isnt the determining factor. In the end, Voldemort & Harry's confrontation came down to a spell they learn in 2nd and 4th years respectivly (disarming & killing curse). Anyone beyond a certain point can cast a killing curse. This is no differnt than any other hero though. Hermonie is their 'tech wiz' --she has the more advanced encyclopedic spell knowledge, but she's not the Hero.


- Now that HP is hailed as an impressive wizard, who does no one take him seriously for the first 3/4ths of the next book when checking the validity of his claims would be a minor thing?
which book?

- Who selects the minister for magic, and why are they so incompetent?

presumabably the Wizengamott (sp)


- Why does even a muggle-interested wizard know so little about muggles? It's not like the muggles are hiding their existence from the wizards.

Yeah the lack of muggle knowledge is a bit wierd. (particularly the bit about wizards not being able to find suitable clothing.)

[Rutee]

Documented in story - technological artefacts do not work in Hogwarts. Also most magical people (mostly the ones that need to be reached) don't have mobiles. Have you noticed how owls have better coverage than most mobile operators?

No, it's documented for Hogwarts; The lion's share, but not all of, the story takes place there. Personally, owls seem to lose out over /my/ cell company, since I very consistently have bars; Therefore, news would reach me quicker :P

Granted, Harry doesn't have much muggle money (Though he could convert wizard's money), Ron is a bigger idiot then his father about muggle tech, and Hermione...

...Well that one actually.. is the UK as big on cell phones as Japan or the US? Because they seem like worryworts, which is one of the predominant reasons I've seen parents get their kids cell phones.



Such as whom? Many of the adults who know him do take him seriously. Note the discussion about Sirius' fate at the end of book 3.
Books 4 and 5; In the former, it's assumed by many, seemingly, that he cheated his way into the contest, and in the latter, well. Everyone in the Ministry of Magic (I refuse to take his angsting over the Order of the Phoenix seriously. When you're a secret society, you do in fact withhold information from members). Golly how, they sure do change their tune from savior to lunatic when he has bad news.

[Serenity]

Book 4: Dumbledore believes him. Mad Eye Moody believes him (well, it turns out he had inside knowledge, but...) The Headmasters of the other schools were from other countries where Harry was less famous--Voldemort was a primarily English Dark Lord, just like Grindelwald was mostly German. All they saw was Hogwarts breaking the rules of the tournament. After the initial complaints, Ron's pretty much the only one complaining, and he stops after the first challenge.

Book 5: The whole point was that Barty Crouch was using all his power as the minister to paint Harry as a lunatic so he didn't have to deal with the reality of Voldemort's return. The very fact that there were a number of ministers in the Wizengamot who voted to let Harry off demonstrates that there were plenty willling to listen to reason.

Besides, the behavior is hardly unrealistic. The pervasiveness of tabloids alone demonstrates the great love people have for watching celebrities fall from grace.

Why should Wizard's Chess be so different from Muggle Chess? I think the problem would be if it was a very different game, and still called Wizards Chess rather than an original name.

With cell phones, who would they call? The main trio is very rarely split up in any situation in which cell phones would be usable, and few of the other wizards they might want to contact would have cell phones.

[....]

Why don't the wizards carry guns?

Sure, you say magic disrupts technology, but gunpowder firing a bullet isn't exactly high tech... its a chemical reaction and the laws of physics. Pretty convienient that magic dampens just those laws no matter what, isn't it?

[factotum]

Why don't the wizards carry guns?

Sure, you say magic disrupts technology, but gunpowder firing a bullet isn't exactly high tech... its a chemical reaction and the laws of physics. Pretty convienient that magic dampens just those laws no matter what, isn't it?

And how do you know that magic DOESN'T disrupt the laws of physics? Certainly a creature the size of a dragon shouldn't be able to fly, for a start, yet they do; a boy flying around on a broomstick isn't something normal physics would allow either.

In any case, the Harry Potter books are set in England, and guns aren't that easy to get hold of here; in addition, the few wizards who MIGHT have some urge to use the things (Voldemort, for example) are generally so contemptuous of Muggle technology that it would never occur to them that a gun is generally more effective than a wand at killing people at long range.

[Solo]

Why don't the wizards carry guns?

Sure, you say magic disrupts technology, but gunpowder firing a bullet isn't exactly high tech... its a chemical reaction and the laws of physics. Pretty convienient that magic dampens just those laws no matter what, isn't it?

"Just a little to the right."

"What, here?"

"Just a little more."

"I don't see anybody..."

"Ok guys, ready? SHOOT HIM! SHOOT HIM!"

[puppyavenger]

Magic tends to fritz up technology. Clearly stated in book 4.

)

Question at what pint of advancment is it considered tec? levers, gas lamps, electricity,? They're all just utilising natural laws just like are body does, human biolagy seems to work in hogwarts, no?

[Castaras]

...Well that one actually.. is the UK as big on cell phones as Japan or the US? Because they seem like worryworts, which is one of the predominant reasons I've seen parents get their kids cell phones.

Worryworts? Meh.

Everyone I know has a mobile phone. Even the kids that are 8 or 9...Although the youngest I've seen with a mobile is 7ish, I think....

[....]

And how do you know that magic DOESN'T disrupt the laws of physics? Certainly a creature the size of a dragon shouldn't be able to fly, for a start, yet they do; a boy flying around on a broomstick isn't something normal physics would allow either.

Yeah, but those things have the magic designed for them to work.

Its awefully useful for magic to have the completely unintentional side effect of rendering all modern tech useless, isn't it?

I prefer Discoworld, where they had a gun, and everyone realized how horrible it was and made sure to destroy it and never let anyone get ahold of another one.

[Arakune]

Yeah, but those things have the magic designed for them to work.

Its awefully useful for magic to have the completely unintentional side effect of rendering all modern tech useless, isn't it?

I prefer Discoworld, where they had a gun, and everyone realized how horrible it was and made sure to destroy it and never let anyone get ahold of another one.

By horrible you mean very, very, very effective way to kill someone much more stronger than you?

[Solo]

By horrible you mean very, very, very effective way to kill someone much more stronger than you?

Clearly the gun was far more horrible than, say, poison, crossbows, swords, or explosive magic spells. Because, um, it... shot balls of lead at someone really fast. Yeah. That makes it horrible.

[Glaivemaster]

Clearly the gun was far more horrible than, say, poison, crossbows, swords, or explosive magic spells. Because, um, it... shot balls of lead at someone really fast. Yeah. That makes it horrible.

Because it was too efficient. They didn't want to live in a world where murder was so easy for everyone and anyone who has the inclination

[....]

Because it was too efficient. They didn't want to live in a world where murder was so easy for everyone and anyone who has the inclination

Exactly.

The power of guns, and all the things that branch from them, isn't that they kill people all that better than swords or bows... its that you can make fifty of them, hand them to fifty pesants, and then mow down five hundered men in armor and armed with swords. (okay, maybe not 500, but you get the point)

I'd lump explosives in with guns.

And everyone knows that Wizards never use magic to kill. They would, but all wizards walk around with so many anti-magic protection spells on its pointless. And other than other wizards, wizards have no inclination to kill people... or even use magic at all because, like the gun, its far to horrible to actually try and use.

[lipe44]

Guns wouldnt work in Hogwarts? Im fine with things like a helicopter not work but a gun is so simple that how it cannot work?

[....]

Guns wouldnt work in Hogwarts? Im fine with things like a helicopter not work but a gun is so simple that how it cannot work?

Because killing people via headshots isn't family friendly.

Destroying them via a direct attack on their soul is okay, though. At least then there's no blood.

[Solo]

Because killing people via headshots isn't family friendly.

Destroying them via a direct attack on their soul is okay, though. At least then there's no blood.

Bullying people is wrong. Mindcrushing is A-ok!



Because it was too efficient. They didn't want to live in a world where murder was so easy for everyone and anyone who has the inclination

But by that logic, you'd have to get rid of swords too, as murdering someone with a sword is vastly easier than killing them with your bare hands.

[Mr. Mud]

Short and Sweet:


The power of Plot my friend. :smallsmile:

[....]

But by that logic, you'd have to get rid of swords too, as murdering someone with a sword is vastly easier than killing them with your bare hands.


They didn't have the chance.

But with the gun, there was only one of them around, and the only 'blueprints' were the gun itself, locked away in the Assassin's Guild. Vimes and Carrot had a chance to stop the prolifiration of guns before they got started, and thus did.

[Selrahc]

But by that logic, you'd have to get rid of swords too, as murdering someone with a sword is vastly easier than killing them with your bare hands.

They got rid of the Gonne(Gun) in Ankh Morpork for the same reason as they got rid of the giant army of golems, and the same reason Vetinari didn't create any of the incredible instruments of death designed by Leonard DaQuirm(Which I guess includes the Gonne).

If Ankh Morpork has guns, and everyone else doesn't, some fool is going to want to use those guns to take over the world. And Vetinari doesn't want that. Best to hush it up before it gets started.

Also, to clarify. This is something a damn sight better than early firearms in our world, it doesn't explode, it had an actual clip rather than the complex mechanism used by early hand cannons, similarly it doesn't have the crappy range of early guns, this thing shoots further than most longbows could, and it has enough power to punch straight through plate mail and several inches into solid rock. Thats a gun thats almost on the level of modern firearms, being compared to a longbow or crossbow. Top that off with ease of use, and ease of manufacture and you've got a weapon that could rock the world if a major nation like Ankh Morpork outfitted its regiments with them... or could get Ankh Morpork sacked and looted if its enemies get ahold of them. Either way, it spells big change, unwanted change.

Oh, and it seems to be possesed of an evil spirit that urges you to go and kill.

[Chronos]

The chess set played superbly well, and reached exactly the conclusion it was supposed to reach. Remember, that test was set up by the head of the house which values bravery, so only a brave person would be able to pass the test. The set deliberately played itself into a position where the player could win, but only by making a sacrifice. Ron was brave enough to be willing to make that sacrifice, and so he won.

As for cell phones, Harry, Ron, and Hermione didn't have them for the same reason that none of the Muggles had them. Remember, the books take place from 1991 to 1998: There might have been coverage in London, but certainly not in the backwaters of Scotland, and the phones all needed to be plugged into a car, because the batteries were too big to easily carry.

[Wizzardman]

Oh, and it seems to be possesed of an evil spirit that urges you to go and kill.

Yeah, but that was mostly a mixture of the user going power-mad and Pratchett making a "guns DO kill people" joke.

[Eita]

Biggest flaw?

Adult Wizards who presumably went to Hogwarts not knowing how to dress like a Muggle.

You went to Hogwarts! You need to dress like a Muggle for the train ride!

[Dervag]

Because it was too efficient. They didn't want to live in a world where murder was so easy for everyone and anyone who has the inclinationRemember, the main points of view on the 'gonne' was that of the Assassins' Guild and of the City Watch. And they don't like guns because they have professional standards that restrict their activities. And (though they'd never admit this), there's a good reason for their standards. It gives the people who might be targeted by assassins a list of things they can reasonably expect to do to defend themselves, and it keeps random ordinary people from ending up as collateral damage in an assassination: one of those 'standards' is that they won't go after anyone incapable of defending themselves, though anyone with enough money is presumed capable of defending themselves or hiring someone who can.

To the Assassin's Guild, guns are a terrible idea. They don't fit into the prescribed methods that assassins use to kill their targets, and if assassins started using guns they would be seen as much more of a threat by the community and would therefore be much more likely to end up being destroyed by public outrage.

From the City Watch's point of view, guns are a terrible idea because... do I really need to explain this?


Pratchett doesn't have random ordinary citizens thinking the gun is a weapon too dreadful to use. He has the Guild of Assassins discovering that the first such weapon in the world has just been invented. Lord Vetinari tries to suppress it by giving it to the Assassins to keep, which would be a great idea except that one of the assassins goes bughouse nuts and decides to start using it.

At this point, even the other assassins are after this guy. Not because the gun is seen as evil, but because it upsets the balance of power that they need to maintain their position safely.


Also, to clarify. This is something a damn sight better than early firearms in our world, it doesn't explode, it had an actual clip rather than the complex mechanism used by early hand cannons, similarly it doesn't have the crappy range of early guns, this thing shoots further than most longbows could, and it has enough power to punch straight through plate mail and several inches into solid rock. Thats a gun thats almost on the level of modern firearms, being compared to a longbow or crossbow.I'd put it on about the same level as, say, the lever-action Winchester from the mid- to late-1800s.


Oh, and it seems to be possesed of an evil spirit that urges you to go and kill.That's mostly because of the fact that in the Discworld, ideas and spirits are floating around all the time waiting to attach to something. The boundaries between reality, symbolism, myth, and belief are very thin and very flexible on the Discworld. So when the very first of the most powerful weapon in the world is made, it shouldn't be a surprise that it ends up carrying some metaphysical baggage.

[Greebo]

All the flaws in all the Harry Potter books and the chess game is the one that sticks in your mind?

Huh... ;)