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Behold_the_Void
2007-11-25, 06:53 PM
I've not seen this come up too often on this scale, so if this is a duplicate thread I'd like to apologize.

And of course, if you hate anime I don't particularly care, please don't bother commenting.

Anyway, I'm interested in people's takes on their favorite anime characters' alignments, and the reasoning behind it. I'll start the ball rolling with a few of my favorites.

Kamina (Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann)

Kamina is, I would say, fairly Chaotic Good. Goes forth, does the right thing, fights for the good of humanity and looks damn good doing it.

I'd say Kamina shares an alignment with a good number of Shounen characters. They all seem to have the basic screw the rules, do the right thing mentality going on.

Yagami Light (Death Note)

Light is an interesting character, I'd say he has an alignment that progresses "down" the further the series goes on.

In the beginning, we have Light as a fairly neutral dude, just going along and being bored. Then, he gets the Death Note. Suddenly, he has power. He can destroy the evil in his world. From this point, I'd say Light shifts to Lawful evil. He has a code. He's going at it for the betterment of society. But he's still committing a sort of genocide to do it. Note, one can argue at this point he might be Lawful Neutral, he passes judgment on those who have committed nefarious crimes, but I'd say he's sliding down the slope.

As the series progresses, he shifts down to Neutral, and then finally to Chaotic Evil as he becomes more consumed with winning and becomes more willing to sacrifice those who don't fall into the category of "the wicked" to achieve his ends. During this period he becomes pretty heavily unbalanced, slipping finally into Chaotic Evil during the end of the series.

Lina Inverse (Slayers)

Chaotic Evil. Seriously. She's greedy, selfish, and willing to explode entire cities in order to meet her own ends. Sure, she saves the world, but usually she's either a) looking out for number one (or one of her friends, even evil people can have friends, remember) or b) someone she's afraid of told her to do it.

Those are a few I can think of to get the ball rolling. What think you all?

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-25, 07:17 PM
First: everyone, let's see if we can have fun with this without degenerating into a flame war, okay? On with the show

Well, Lina is just a stereotypical hack-and-slash D&D player character in the first place. I'm guessing she's one of those characters whose sheet says Chaotic Neutral, but in practice...

And to counter her, I'd say Gourry Gabriev (Slayers) is probably Neutral Good, or maybe LG and just really ineffectual at the Lawful part.

Gendo Ikari (Evangelion) is Neutral Evil. I really don't think I have to explain this one. His SEELE superiors are more Lawful Evil, in the Utopia Justifies the Means kind of way. Most of the rest of the named cast hovers around Neutral due to being so massively self-absorbed, yet still willing to fight for what they think is a good cause.

Vash the Stampede (Trigun) one of the few non-annoying Exalted characters I've ever seen. Tough to say whether he's LG (due to inflexible personal code) or CG (due to his rejection of social preconceptions). Knives is a Chaotic Evil sociopath. I get why, but he still is.

SurlySeraph
2007-11-25, 07:17 PM
The only one of those I'm familiar with is Light. I'd say he starts Neutral, then is briefly LG, then LN, and then slips down through LE and CE as you said.

Alucard (Hellsing)
Neutral Evil. He would be trying to escape Hellsing's control if he were Chaotic, and he's too uncaring and casual to be Lawful. I refuse to consider giving anyone who takes as much pleasure as he does in unnecessary killing a non-evil alignment, so NE it is.

Alexander Anderson (Hellsing)
Lawful Evil. He's a paladin, which points to LG. But he's long since stepped over the Gray Guard line of doing evil for the greater good into doing evil to kill everyone who doesn't think like he does. Gleefully massacring vampires just for being vampires is arguably good. Gleefully massacring Protestants just for being Protestants? Definitely not.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-11-25, 07:54 PM
Alucard (Hellsing)
Neutral Evil. He would be trying to escape Hellsing's control if he were Chaotic, and he's too uncaring and casual to be Lawful. I refuse to consider giving anyone who takes as much pleasure as he does in unnecessary killing a non-evil alignment, so NE it is.

Actually I think uncaring and casual CAN fit into Lawful, but I think you hit that one pretty much on the head there.

Alexander Anderson (Hellsing)
Lawful Evil. He's a paladin, which points to LG. But he's long since stepped over the Gray Guard line of doing evil for the greater good into doing evil to kill everyone who doesn't think like he does. Gleefully massacring vampires just for being vampires is arguably good. Gleefully massacring Protestants just for being Protestants? Definitely not.[/QUOTE]

Ehhh...I wouldn't be so harsh as to saw Lawful Evil. I mean, he DOES have good intentions behind what he's all doing. Is a paladin only in name (Arguably). As for Protestants...well he doesn't go out of his way to murder them. The only ones I've seen him kill were a direct threat or in his way....but yeah he does take a bit too much glee in killing.

thorgrim29
2007-11-25, 07:58 PM
The major: Hellsing....

Well this one is pretty easy, he wants to see Alucard fight at 100% and is more then willing to destroy the world as we know it to do so....... Chaotic Evil.

yoshi927
2007-11-25, 08:05 PM
As for Light, I'd say he starts out NG, then slips to LE, and finally to CE. I'm not familiar with any of the others.

Kojiro Kakita
2007-11-25, 08:14 PM
The major: Hellsing....

Well this one is pretty easy, he wants to see Alucard fight at 100% and is more then willing to destroy the world as we know it to do so....... Chaotic Evil.

HUGE SPOILER ALERT

Major (Hellsing). I have to disagree with your opinion about the Major. While he is evil, I believe he is more Neutral Evil since he has a single goal, the death of Arucard.
As seen in the recent chapters, he did not destroy London for the sake of destroying London, no he did it to defeat Arucard, because he knew that Arucard would take the opportunity to suck up all the blood of London, including the poisoned blood of the Warrant Officer (Cat dude).
Furthermore, if the major was chaotic, why would he turn down the powers of being a Vampire, after all, like he says, he is still human.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-25, 08:18 PM
Oh,

Haruhi Suzumiya is pretty solidly Chaotic Neutral. She's pretty much as self-centered as they come, but lacks the actual malice needed to be Evil. The Chaos part should be obvious.

It's tough to call the rest of the cast, as they're all very good at concealing their real motives. I suppose Kyon is Neutral. He certainly tries to be.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-11-25, 08:19 PM
Major (Hellsing). I have to disagree with your opinion about the Major. While he is evil, I believe he is more Neutral Evil since he has a single goal, the death of Arucard. As seen in the recent chapters, he did not destroy London for the sake of destroying London, no he did it to defeat Arucard, because he knew that Arucard would take the opportunity to suck up all the blood of London, including the poisoned blood of the Warrant Officer (Cat dude).
Furthermore, if the major was chaotic, why would he turn down the powers of being a Vampire, after all, like he says, he is still human.

...That is something that should most definitly be in spoiler tags. x.x

hanzo66
2007-11-25, 08:19 PM
Ohh, goody. I like this thread...

OK, let's get some obvious ones out of the way...

Most Shonen Protagonists:
Chaotic Good
Most of them tend to be rebellious and determined to fight evil, even against all common sense just because of some moral code. Kamina is an uber-example, having seemingly no common sense whatsoever (Kick reason to the curb) and is fueled by pure will.

Mayuri Kurotsuchi (Bleach)
Neutral Evil
No ethical boundaries. Will follow orders from superiors but probably not completely loyal.

Kenpachi Zaraki
Chaotic Neutral
Highly chaotic as far as ethics go (no common sense). Doesn't seem to be a fighter for good yet does not seem to be utterly destructive to those around him, only looking for epic fights.

Warhammer equivalent would be the Orks.

Kaname Tousen
Lawful Neutral
Somewhat reminds me of Miko. Thinks of self as Lawful Good when really just mostly Lawful and hates Kenpachi, who is highly Chaotic (which he regards as evil). Believes in a greater good in his actions and claims that he despises bloodshed. Similar to the Tau in WH40K.


I'll see if more comes to mind...

Lord Iames Osari
2007-11-25, 08:19 PM
Char Aznable (UC Gundam)
I'd say he starts out as LN - in the first series, he's not really malicious; he's just a soldier. His betrayal of Garma is pretty evil, but that's just one act.

Then in Zeta, helping the AEUG fight against the Titans and the Axis Zeons, I'd say he moved to being LG.

Finally, in Char's Counterattack, he's LE. He's trying to plunge the Earth into a nuclear winter, for God's sake!

Shiro Amada (08th MS Team)
Textbook NG, IMO. Willing to fight evil, but keeps in mind that his enemies are people and tries to minimize unnecessary death and destruction.

Dorizzit
2007-11-25, 08:20 PM
Hellsing:

Alucard: Neutral Evil. Takes a great deal of joy in killing. Doesn't really care about his bondage to Hellsing, indicating that he isn't Chaotic, and doesn't really think about the future, indicating that he isn't lawful.

Anderson: Lawful Neutral. Religious Fanatic, takes great joy in killing those opposed to him, but doesn't go out of his way to kill them, and rarely initiates conflicts (except against vampires or protestants getting in his way).

Walter: Lawful Awesome. The dude rocks.

Seras: Neutral Good. Innocent (at first) and fairly naive.

Sir Integral Hellsing: Lawful Good. Runs the Hellsing organization and has a strong sense of right and wrong.

The Major: Chaotic Evil. A skilled planner, but ultimately lives for war.

Guts
2007-11-25, 08:20 PM
Since we are started helsing, what about intergra, schrodinger(the catboy), seras, pip and the captain (poor wolfie why did 'Balloons-fer-Boobs' and her man kill you with a friginng tooth/tooth filling. Damn Hirano!!!:smallfurious: ) and the original Van helsing, Walter (b4 and after betrayal) and the Doctor?

Behold_the_Void
2007-11-25, 08:26 PM
Kenpachi Zaraki
Chaotic Neutral
Highly chaotic as far as ethics go (no common sense). Doesn't seem to be a fighter for good yet does not seem to be utterly destructive to those around him, only looking for epic fights.

Warhammer equivalent would be the Orks.

Kaname Tousen
Lawful Neutral
Somewhat reminds me of Miko. Thinks of self as Lawful Good when really just mostly Lawful and hates Kenpachi, who is highly Chaotic (which he regards as evil). Believes in a greater good in his actions and claims that he despises bloodshed. Similar to the Tau in WH40K.


I'll see if more comes to mind...

I'd have to disagree on both counts (we actually statted both of those characters in the Bleach D20 with the following alignments I'll be detailing here).

I say Zaraki Kenpachi is Chaotic Evil because he's perfectly willing and happy to kill dudes. He likes to fight and kill people who aren't stronger than he is. That's pretty evil to me.

Tousen pretty much has to be evil if he's party to a plot that will kill thousands of innocents for the mere personal gain of his liege.

Kojiro Kakita
2007-11-25, 08:26 PM
Hellsing:

Alucard: Neutral Evil. Takes a great deal of joy in killing. Doesn't really care about his bondage to Hellsing, indicating that he isn't Chaotic, and doesn't really think about the future, indicating that he isn't lawful.

Anderson: Lawful Neutral. Religious Fanatic, takes great joy in killing those opposed to him, but doesn't go out of his way to kill them, and rarely initiates conflicts (except against vampires or protestants getting in his way).

Walter: Lawful Awesome. The dude rocks.

Seras: Neutral Good. Innocent (at first) and fairly naive.

Sir Integral Hellsing: Lawful Good. Runs the Hellsing organization and has a strong sense of right and wrong.

The Major: Chaotic Evil. A skilled planner, but ultimately lives for war.

I agree with most of the above except for your opinions on Walter and the Major. As I argued earlier, the Major should be lawful evil, since he has a single goal, the death of Arucard and refused to become a vampire.

As for Walter: Lawful Evil He betrays the organization for personal gain, the ability to be a vampire. How is that not lawful evil

Fiery Diamond
2007-11-25, 08:33 PM
Inuyasha (Inuyasha)
Chaotic Good. Starts off as sort of a Chaotic Neutral, but definitely shows his goodness in the few instances when he volunteers to help people.

Sesshomaru (Inuyasha)
Definitely Lawful Evil. He's got a compassionate side (His attitude toward Kagura and Rin come to mind) but his has no qualms about murdering anyone in his way. He is cool and collected, and he always warns foes that he will kill them.

- Fiery Diamond

Dorizzit
2007-11-25, 08:37 PM
As for Walter: Lawful Evil He betrays the organization for personal gain, the ability to be a vampire. How is that not lawful evil

Be that as it may, he's still awesome.

I left his moral alignment open specifically because it changes and some people might not have known about it.

Cubey
2007-11-25, 08:39 PM
More Evangelion characters:
Shinji - really tough call. Most of his actions are motivated by peer pressure (either real or perceived), but he is a good kid, who had a chance to quit piloting the Eva but ultimately didn't. I'd say he's NG, the neutral part being a balance between his inconsistency (Chaotic) and liking a simple life without much stuff happening (Lawful).
Asuka - she is so brash and undisciplined that she has to be Chaotic. She pilots the Eva mostly to prove herself as the best, and saving the world from angels comes second, however I'd put her more as CG than CN. This is because...

In both examples above, I assumed that even though reasons on why they do what they do may be ultimately egocentric, the fact that being an Eva pilot is so dangerous and often traumatic, adding it to that they can quit anytime, makes the fact that the kids pilot Evas against the angels Good in itself. And if you do not consider motivations, the act's consequences themselves are even more obviously Good. Of course, it didn't end very well, but it'd be much worse if any angel was successful...

Rei - Do constructs have an alignment?:smalltongue: On a more serious tone, LN, perhaps with LG leanings as per above. The Lawful part is obvious, Neutral is because she basically does everything Gendou tells her to do. I have a feeling she'd even commit murder if instructed to.

Misato - obviously CG. Her Chaotic nature is as obvious as Rei's Lawfulness. She is probably the most Good character from the series, despite her small sins (that everyone in Evangelion has, but hey - it's that kind of an anime) she is the one most willing to risk her life when she is not required to do so (the episode with Jet Alone) or to try to find the real truth behind it all.

Fuyutsuki - he is obviously LG in the flashbacks, with a strong moral backbone. At the present time of the show, he knows so much about the truth that he simply cannot be considered good anymore if he rolls with it. I'd say he simply does not care anymore about anything else than having the mission of stopping the angels done, but still has enough basic morality not to be Evil. Probably LN.

Ritsuko - as above, but she strikes me as less Lawful. Probably NN, but it's a tough call for me. Anyone up for the challenge?


For non-Evangelion examples, this post is long enough but I'll give some examples for others to think over:
Scar from FMA
Haruhi from Melancholy of... oh heck. EVERYONE from Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya! EDIT: Curses for multi-ninjaying and long posts
The Major (Matoko Kusanagi) from Ghost in the Shell
Batou, as above
Haruko, from FLCL

Kojiro Kakita
2007-11-25, 08:39 PM
Be that as it may, he's still awesome.

I left his moral alignment open specifically because it changes and some people might not have known about it.

As to awesome, well I will concede that point, especially after reading Helsing:the Dawn.

hanzo66
2007-11-25, 08:51 PM
I'd have to disagree on both counts (we actually statted both of those characters in the Bleach D20 with the following alignments I'll be detailing here).
Really? Must have missed it on the Bleach D20 Thread. What page was that part on again?

thorgrim29
2007-11-25, 08:58 PM
Hellsing:

Seras: Neutral Good. Innocent (at first) and fairly naive.

Sir Integral Hellsing: Lawful Good. Runs the Hellsing organization and has a strong sense of right and wrong.


Wow.... you may be right about pre-Pip's death Seras, but I have to strongly dissagree about Integral. No way she's good after ordering so many innocents to their deaths (remember elevator action?). She's lawfull neutral as far as I'm concerned.

And most of the "paladins" are lawfull neutral as well, exept Maxwell, he's a crazy bastard.

Cubey
2007-11-25, 09:11 PM
Zaraki and Tousen are both evil.

Kenpachi: One of the ways of becoming a captain was to defeat a current captain, which isn't evil in itself. Kenpachi, however, not only defeated the previous 11th squad leader but KILLED him, and that is Evil. Get in his way and he'll kill you - that's Zaraki's way.

Tousen: A case of sketchy self-philosophy, spoilered for your pleasure. Note that he is LE but perceives himself as LG, as below:
There is no justice in the world -> Someone has to become an agent of justice -> I became an agent of justice -> (most important part) everything I do is just

Other Shinigami captains:
Yamamoto-Genryusai - LN, status quo is king for him and must be upholded by all means
Soifon - LN with Evil tendencies, duty is the single priority for her. She is not without a sense of justice, but is quick to anger and act brutally over those whom she considers inferior or traitors.
Ichimaru Gin - NE. Evil is obvious, he doesn't strike me as neither Lawful nor Chaotic in his actions.
Unohana - pretty much one of the archetypes of LG.
Aizen - LE to the bone, and a Magnificent Bastard to that.
Byakuya - LN, tradition and law are sacred for him and a priority.
Komamura - loyal and honorable, he is probably LG but I wouldn't be surprised if he was LN either.
Kyoraku - obviously CG, with a strong sense of what is right but lazy, undisciplined and more than willing to break the rules to achieve his goals.
Hitsugaya - a kid paladin with Edward Elric's seiyuu, he has to be LG. The seiyuu part has nothing to do with it however.
Ukitake - LG. Honorable and just, he is a living embodiement of an ideal samurai.

averagejoe
2007-11-25, 10:18 PM
Yagami Light (Death Note)

Light is an interesting character, I'd say he has an alignment that progresses "down" the further the series goes on.

In the beginning, we have Light as a fairly neutral dude, just going along and being bored. Then, he gets the Death Note. Suddenly, he has power. He can destroy the evil in his world. From this point, I'd say Light shifts to Lawful evil. He has a code. He's going at it for the betterment of society. But he's still committing a sort of genocide to do it. Note, one can argue at this point he might be Lawful Neutral, he passes judgment on those who have committed nefarious crimes, but I'd say he's sliding down the slope.

As the series progresses, he shifts down to Neutral, and then finally to Chaotic Evil as he becomes more consumed with winning and becomes more willing to sacrifice those who don't fall into the category of "the wicked" to achieve his ends. During this period he becomes pretty heavily unbalanced, slipping finally into Chaotic Evil during the end of the series.

I would argue that he was LE the whole time, it's just that he lacked the means or opportunity before finding the titular object. I also don't see his morality changing much through the series. He gets a bit more crazy, but that doesn't make him any less lawful.

I wouldn't care to nail down their alignments on the good/evil axes, but the central conflict, the one between Mugen and Jin in Samurai Champloo pretty much exemplifies the law vs. chaos conflict. In fact, it's the most common example I use to introduce people to the law/chaos axis, since conflicts tend to be more useful than isolated examples. I hope I don't have to say which is which.

Behold_the_Void
2007-11-25, 10:26 PM
I would argue that he was LE the whole time, it's just that he lacked the means or opportunity before finding the titular object. I also don't see his morality changing much through the series. He gets a bit more crazy, but that doesn't make him any less lawful.

That is a good point, but I'd like to point out that he struggles with the issue for awhile, before finally deciding it's the right course of action. He has some inner turmoil before he finally decides to do what he does, which is when I'd say he shifts, as opposed to always having been like that (in which case, he wouldn't have had that turmoil).

DarthArminius
2007-11-25, 10:40 PM
Ryoko: Chaotic neutral: She seemed to be evil sometimes, but generally turned herself towards being helpful to protecting the universe.

Ashram: Lawful neutral with evil tendencies. Yes Katshue killed Beld with a dishonorable move, but he saved all of Lodoss from evil rule. Ashram doesn't care, and presumably thinks Katshue is worthless. Not to mention trying to get the Sceptre of Domination, endangering all life in the world.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-25, 10:50 PM
I can think of three Ryokos off the top of my head (two CN and one...NE or CE. Whatever you'd call a Rampant AI). I assume you mean the Tenchi one?

averagejoe
2007-11-25, 11:00 PM
That is a good point, but I'd like to point out that he struggles with the issue for awhile, before finally deciding it's the right course of action. He has some inner turmoil before he finally decides to do what he does, which is when I'd say he shifts, as opposed to always having been like that (in which case, he wouldn't have had that turmoil).

Well, putting aside that he doesn't really struggle with it for even the length of the episode (unless my memory has betrayed me), and ignoring the multitude of reasons he might have had for being indecisive, indecisiveness doesn't make him not evil. Everyone has doubts and qualms, but alingnment represents the core of who one is. For example, in mini arc of Fullmetal Alchemist where Ed and Al break into laboratory 5, Ed doesn't suddenly turn evil when he struggles with the idea of sacrificing those people to create a philosopher's stone, and then go back to being good in the next episode. He remained, at his core, a good person even if he was misguided for awhile. It's the same with Light; he might have had trouble making the choice, but in the end the choice he made marked him as evil.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-11-25, 11:22 PM
Char Aznable (UC Gundam)
I'd say he starts out as LN - in the first series, he's not really malicious; he's just a soldier. His betrayal of Garma is pretty evil, but that's just one act.

Then in Zeta, helping the AEUG fight against the Titans and the Axis Zeons, I'd say he moved to being LG.

Finally, in Char's Counterattack, he's LE. He's trying to plunge the Earth into a nuclear winter, for God's sake!

I'd agree with a lot of these, sorta, but I really never thought of Char as Lawful. He seems to side with Zeon not because they're the law, but because he agrees with them. Similarly, he switches sides in Zeta because he now agrees with AEUG. While not altogether Chaotic, he's pretty self-determinant. He follows order, but he doesn't just blindly follow the Zeon name as a true Lawful might.

AverageJoe:
Light actually joins the investigation against Kira when he briefly loses the deathnote, forgetting entirely what he had done. Power's corruption is a big theme in the show. He was a good guy until he got the power to force his good on others, which is when he became evil. You could, I guess, argue he would've done it without the deathnote if he had some other wide scale of power, but I got the feeling from it the deathnote had something of a corrupting influence on him, otherwise even when he didn't remember that he was Kira, he would've agreed with Kira, instead of tried to stop him.

Kojiro Kakita
2007-11-26, 12:01 AM
AverageJoe:
Light actually joins the investigation against Kira when he briefly loses the deathnote, forgetting entirely what he had done. Power's corruption is a big theme in the show. He was a good guy until he got the power to force his good on others, which is when he became evil. You could, I guess, argue he would've done it without the deathnote if he had some other wide scale of power, but I got the feeling from it the deathnote had something of a corrupting influence on him, otherwise even when he didn't remember that he was Kira, he would've agreed with Kira, instead of tried to stop him.

You have to remember the reason why Ryuk brought the Death Note with him to earth. That may explain part of the corruption or if Light was always a bit LE.

Haruki-kun
2007-11-26, 12:02 AM
A few of mine:

Edward Elric: (FullMetal Alchemist)
Chaotic Good.
He never had any evil intentions in mind, even if he considered killing a bunch of people. He had no choice at that point. Heborthers on CN, though.

The Chaoticness I don't think many people can argue with.

Lucy (Elfen Lied):
Chaotic Evil
OK, so she kills every single human she meets except Kohta, destroys everything in her path, rips the head off some secretary and uses her body to hide behind bullets.................

Come on! She's clearly Evil! It doesn't matter that she had a harsh past. Evil characters aren't necessarily the Spawn of Hell. She's a person with feelings, but that doesn't justify her actions.

Shana (Shakugan no Shana):
Neutral Good.
Absolutely no evil intentions in mind. She wanted to save Yuuji and she tried to preserve the natural order of things. She doesn't mind bending the rules, but sticks to them usually........ NG.

SouginTou: (Rozen Maiden)
True Neutral
Ironically, I consider SouginTou to be more good than Shinku ever was. Shinku ended up doing exactly the same things SouginTou wanted to do, only Shinku had barely any motive. Besides, wasn't Shinku the one who kept calling her "Junk" all the time? Now THAT's mean.

SouginTou Follows no rules at all, but isn't intending to break them. She follows her own rules, and the Rules of the Alice Game. And she does what she does out of necessit, the Alice Game again. If she could have become Alice without killing her six siters, she wouldn't have tried it. It wasn't spite and it wasn't evil, it was more of a procedure.

Kojiro Kakita
2007-11-26, 12:11 AM
A few of mine:
Lucy (Elfen Lied):
Chaotic Evil
OK, so she kills every single human she meets except Kohta, destroys everything in her path, rips the head off some secretary and uses her body to hide behind bullets.................

Come on! She's clearly Evil! It doesn't matter that she had a harsh past. Evil characters aren't necessarily the Spawn of Hell. She's a person with feelings, but that doesn't justify her actions.

Shana (Shakugan no Shana):
Neutral Good.
Absolutely no evil intentions in mind. She wanted to save Yuuji and she tried to preserve the natural order of things. She doesn't mind bending the rules, but sticks to them usually........ NG.


I am going to have to disagree with your assumption of Lucy.
I don't think she would classify as Chaotic Evil, more Chaotic Neutral.
IF you look at her actions

She really isn't killing out of pure joy, she is killing for revenge. As to the reason why she killed the secretary, she did it for revenge, since the secretary's boss killed one of Lucy's good friends. Furthermore, if you want Chaotic Evil, look at the leader of the organization. Turns his own daughter into a weapon.

As to shana, I am going to say chaotic good

She is a Flame Haze, and as a Flame Haze she should have taken out Yuji since it would have prevented the return of Snake of the Festival (I got to admit though Snake of the Festival/Yujii has style. Seducing Shana in the form of Yuji and then kidnapping her.) However due to her feelings she spares him.
Finally you have to remember what kind of character she is....TSUNDERE. If that doesn't make Chaotic I do not know what does.

Cubey
2007-11-26, 01:14 AM
I am going to have to disagree with your assumption of Lucy.
I don't think she would classify as Chaotic Evil, more Chaotic Neutral.
IF you look at her actions

She really isn't killing out of pure joy, she is killing for revenge. As to the reason why she killed the secretary, she did it for revenge, since the secretary's boss killed one of Lucy's good friends. Furthermore, if you want Chaotic Evil, look at the leader of the organization. Turns his own daughter into a weapon.


Revenge is evil to start with. Lawful, if your character adheres to "eye for an eye" morality, but still evil. Besides, if she had something against the boss, then the revenge should be pointed at the boss too, and not his subordinates.

But why are we discussing this? Even excluding this one example, Lucy killed a lot of random bystanders for no reason other than flipping out. She's as obvious as CE as Belkar - that is, some people argue with that for some strange reason which I cannot comprehend.

averagejoe
2007-11-26, 01:15 AM
AverageJoe:
Light actually joins the investigation against Kira when he briefly loses the deathnote, forgetting entirely what he had done. Power's corruption is a big theme in the show. He was a good guy until he got the power to force his good on others, which is when he became evil. You could, I guess, argue he would've done it without the deathnote if he had some other wide scale of power, but I got the feeling from it the deathnote had something of a corrupting influence on him, otherwise even when he didn't remember that he was Kira, he would've agreed with Kira, instead of tried to stop him.

That's the point, though. You say, "He was a good guy until he got the power to force his good on others, which is when he became evil." but the thing is that if one doesn't have the power to force his will on others, one pretty much has to be a good guy. One cannot be good unless one has the opportunity to commit evil. To say that Light was good until he had the opportunity to be evil is nonsense.

Kojiro Kakita
2007-11-26, 01:24 AM
Revenge is evil to start with. Lawful, if your character adheres to "eye for an eye" morality, but still evil. Besides, if she had something against the boss, then the revenge should be pointed at the boss too, and not his subordinates.

But why are we discussing this? Even excluding this one example, Lucy killed a lot of random bystanders for no reason other than flipping out. She's as obvious as CE as Belkar - that is, some people argue with that for some strange reason which I cannot comprehend.

I bid you remember the ending of the manga though and you may understand my belief. (The anime does not due justice to Lucy in my opinion but, what can you do)

At the end we seen the two reincarnations of Lucy. The smiling twin can be presumed to Nyu while the sullen one can be presumed to be Lucy. However, at the end they both seem to forgive Kouta, and even befriends his daughter. If Lucy was chaotic evil then it would be reasonable to say that her reincarnation (who also appears to have all of Lucy's memories) would also be chaotic evil. However, since she is not, then one could say that Lucy was more chaotic neutral because she only fought to rid the people who tortured her. Furthermore if she was truly chaotic evil why did she feel remorse for killing Kouta's sister. Although, I will concede that the Diclonious virus may cause madness, thus explaining why Lucy seems to be Chaotic Evil at times.

Xuincherguixe
2007-11-26, 01:39 AM
I see Lina Inverse as Chaotic Neutral. She's way too selfish to be good, but I don't think quite selfish enough to be Evil. But she's getting there. She also isn't trying to blow up all those towns, bad things just keep happening around her, and she has some lapses in judgment.

Also, in the context of the series itself, stuff is supposed to blow up all the time.

If Lina was evil, she probably would have sided with all the evil stuff instead of blowing it up too.


As for Kenpatchi. The impression I got is that he's Evil, but he isn't pure Evil. He likes to fight. Way, way too much. He'd kill people stronger than him too if he had the chance, it's just that there aren't too many of those around. He also seems perfectly happy with dying at the hands of someone else, as long as he had a good fight.

DarthArminius
2007-11-26, 01:51 AM
I can think of three Ryokos off the top of my head (two CN and one...NE or CE. Whatever you'd call a Rampant AI). I assume you mean the Tenchi one?

Yeah Tenchi

Behold_the_Void
2007-11-26, 01:54 AM
I see Lina Inverse as Chaotic Neutral. She's way too selfish to be good, but I don't think quite selfish enough to be Evil. But she's getting there. She also isn't trying to blow up all those towns, bad things just keep happening around her, and she has some lapses in judgment.

Also, in the context of the series itself, stuff is supposed to blow up all the time.

If Lina was evil, she probably would have sided with all the evil stuff instead of blowing it up too.


As for Kenpatchi. The impression I got is that he's Evil, but he isn't pure Evil. He likes to fight. Way, way too much. He'd kill people stronger than him too if he had the chance, it's just that there aren't too many of those around. He also seems perfectly happy with dying at the hands of someone else, as long as he had a good fight.

That's the point. Lina is evil with a lowercase "e", just like Zaraki is. Neither of them are the big bad Machiavellian world-destroyers, but they're not the nicest people in the world either. They are willing to kill/explode/whatever innocents for their own personal gain, that's pretty evil in my book.

Kojiro Kakita
2007-11-26, 02:09 AM
That's the point. Lina is evil with a lowercase "e", just like Zaraki is. Neither of them are the big bad Machiavellian world-destroyers, but they're not the nicest people in the world either. They are willing to kill/explode/whatever innocents for their own personal gain, that's pretty evil in my book.

This too is debatable. Since Lina may contain part of an evil deity in her soul, is it not reasonable to presume that it has some influence on her actions. Hell, the easiest thing (sarcasm) would be to find the DnD campaign Slayers is supposedly based on. Maybe that would tell us more info.

turkishproverb
2007-11-26, 02:11 AM
Char Aznable (UC Gundam)
I'd say he starts out as LN - in the first series, he's not really malicious; he's just a soldier. His betrayal of Garma is pretty evil, but that's just one act.

Then in Zeta, helping the AEUG fight against the Titans and the Axis Zeons, I'd say he moved to being LG.

Finally, in Char's Counterattack, he's LE. He's trying to plunge the Earth into a nuclear winter, for God's sake!

Shiro Amada (08th MS Team)
Textbook NG, IMO. Willing to fight evil, but keeps in mind that his enemies are people and tries to minimize unnecessary death and destruction.


Hmm.. I'd probably agree with this, only because I've watched Zeta through enough times to recognise Char's lawful behaviors in it.

As for shiro, I'd agree, but not for reason of his trying to minimise Casualties or remember the enemies humanity. A LG person could do that too. Rather, it's his tendancy to change his stance on things and do what is right reguardless in his opinion which would lead to it.



A more interesting question, however, comes in the form of Haman Kahn. Despite being her countries ruler, I'm strangely tempted to think of ehr as an evil Shojo. Constantly subverting the rules to get what she wants.

Behold_the_Void
2007-11-26, 02:16 AM
This too is debatable. Since Lina may contain part of an evil deity in her soul, is it not reasonable to presume that it has some influence on her actions. Hell, the easiest thing (sarcasm) would be to find the DnD campaign Slayers is supposedly based on. Maybe that would tell us more info.

Ah, but then that begs the question of whether the Lord of Nightmares him/herself is evil. It is the creator and overdiety of the setting, after all. His/her title is the "Sea of Chaos" and while capricious, he/she did refrain from obliterating everything when Lina botched Giga Slave like he/she would apparently do if the spell did go awry.

Plus I'd say Lina's more of someone who's curried the Lord of Nightmare's interests as opposed to a full-time avatar.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-26, 02:16 AM
This too is debatable. Since Lina may contain part of an evil deity in her soul, is it not reasonable to presume that it has some influence on her actions. Hell, the easiest thing (sarcasm) would be to find the DnD campaign Slayers is supposedly based on. Maybe that would tell us more info.
Ah, you're confusing it with Record of Lodoss War. Slayers is based on a serialized comic in the Japanese version of Dragon magazine, which took plenty of liberties with the rules...

Yeah, that's right. Slayers is the Japanese proto-OotS. Fear it.

My point is, Lina Inverse was never an RPG character, she was a parody of them. However, there's a Slayers d20 book out there, and she may be statted in it...

turkishproverb
2007-11-26, 03:27 AM
Yeah, that's right. Slayers is the Japanese proto-OotS. Fear it.

Sigging this

Tengu
2007-11-26, 06:43 AM
I'd post in this topic but it gives me too huge of a fanboygasm. I might write something when it passes, though.

Setra
2007-11-26, 09:41 AM
Takamachi Nanoha (Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha)
Neutral Good
Not going in depth, I'll just say she's a character who just does her very best to do good, neither being very Lawful, or Chaotic.

I haven't seen StrikerS yet, so my opinion might change when I do.

SITB
2007-11-26, 02:45 PM
That's the point, though. You say, "He was a good guy until he got the power to force his good on others, which is when he became evil." but the thing is that if one doesn't have the power to force his will on others, one pretty much has to be a good guy. One cannot be good unless one has the opportunity to commit evil. To say that Light was good until he had the opportunity to be evil is nonsense.

He could still act maliciously without the Death Note. I'd argue that when he got the Death note and finally realized how he can and will change the world he became evil (My guess is, he knew he was doing evil and thus deserved to write himself in the notebook; but found a way around that by declaring himself a god). Having latent evil tendecies doesn't make you evil.

In my opinion, before he got the Death Note he started as Apathetic Lawful Natural

Piedmon_Sama
2007-11-26, 03:03 PM
Vash the Stampede (Trigun) one of the few non-annoying Exalted characters I've ever seen. Tough to say whether he's LG (due to inflexible personal code) or CG (due to his rejection of social preconceptions). Knives is a Chaotic Evil sociopath. I get why, but he still is.

I'd disagree with this. Vash's actions seem to me more dedicated by his desire for good than to uphold order or freedom. I'd peg him as Neutral Good.


I wouldn't care to nail down their alignments on the good/evil axes, but the central conflict, the one between Mugen and Jin in Samurai Champloo pretty much exemplifies the law vs. chaos conflict. In fact, it's the most common example I use to introduce people to the law/chaos axis, since conflicts tend to be more useful than isolated examples. I hope I don't have to say which is which.

Hm, interesting you consider Jin lawful. To me, he seemed like the textbook example of Chaotic Good from episode one.

Basically, Jin is living on the run because he killed his own master. He never tries to explain the circumstances to his fellow students (that he was attacked) but merely duels them when confronted. An important facet of his character is that Jin is a Ronin because he considers no lords worthy of his sword. Sure, he's stoic and disciplined, but it's SELF-discipline. He's wholly unconcerned with society and its limits, and merely acts as his conscience dictates.

As far as Mugen goes, he's a former buccaneer and an unrepentant one. He fights and kills for fun, deliberately drawing out someone's suffering in order to get a challenging fight like he wants in the first episode. Mugen resorts to robbery when he's down on his luck and had no qualms about hacking his way through his "allies" when he worked for the Yakuza. What I'm getting at is I actually think for at least the first half of the series, Mugen is Chaotic Evil. It's possible he mellows to Neutral by the end, but simply because he begins to care for Fuu and Jin doesn't necissarily change the way he treats the rest of the world.

Indon
2007-11-26, 03:30 PM
I'd disagree with this. Vash's actions seem to me more dedicated by his desire for good than to uphold order or freedom. I'd peg him as Neutral Good.


Vash's personal philosophy is completely about granting individuals the freedom to perform their own moral choices (and then hoping they choose good). While he adheres to it with the zealotry expected of Law, his code itself is very reliant on personal morality, which is Chaotic in nature.

If I think of any interesting cases, I'll note them, but a lot of what I would have said has already been brought up.

Wraithy
2007-11-26, 03:38 PM
Hm, interesting you consider Jin lawful. To me, he seemed like the textbook example of Chaotic Good from episode one.

Basically, Jin is living on the run because he killed his own master. He never tries to explain the circumstances to his fellow students (that he was attacked) but merely duels them when confronted. An important facet of his character is that Jin is a Ronin because he considers no lords worthy of his sword. Sure, he's stoic and disciplined, but it's SELF-discipline. He's wholly unconcerned with society and its limits, and merely acts as his conscience dictates.

As far as Mugen goes, he's a former buccaneer and an unrepentant one. He fights and kills for fun, deliberately drawing out someone's suffering in order to get a challenging fight like he wants in the first episode. Mugen resorts to robbery when he's down on his luck and had no qualms about hacking his way through his "allies" when he worked for the Yakuza. What I'm getting at is I actually think for at least the first half of the series, Mugen is Chaotic Evil. It's possible he mellows to Neutral by the end, but simply because he begins to care for Fuu and Jin doesn't necissarily change the way he treats the rest of the world.
I agree with your assesment of Mugen, he's relatively evil, certainly chaotic. However your assesment of Jin's alignment, I can't agree with on the terms of my definition of alignment. I see personal code and self-discepline as a core piece of being lawful, although he has broken the law on several occasions throughout the series, he never broke his personal code, and it allways felt (to me) that he never broke the law on a whim, it was allways either him being forced to do it orwhen he felt great injustice had occured. Lawful doesn't necesarrily mean obeys the law.
I agree on the good aspect of Jin's alignment, the prossie incident confirms it (although there may have been a large amount of personal interest there:smallwink: ) I'd finally place Jin somewhere between NG and LG, but its just my interpretation of it.

bluish_wolf
2007-11-26, 03:52 PM
Revenge is evil to start with. Lawful, if your character adheres to "eye for an eye" morality, but still evil. Besides, if she had something against the boss, then the revenge should be pointed at the boss too, and not his subordinates.

But why are we discussing this? Even excluding this one example, Lucy killed a lot of random bystanders for no reason other than flipping out. She's as obvious as CE as Belkar - that is, some people argue with that for some strange reason which I cannot comprehend.

Plus, I think she says at one point, "I'm running low on food, better go kill someone." She pretty much solves all her problems with violence.


Ah, you're confusing it with Record of Lodoss War. Slayers is based on a serialized comic in the Japanese version of Dragon magazine, which took plenty of liberties with the rules...

Yeah, that's right. Slayers is the Japanese proto-OotS. Fear it.

My point is, Lina Inverse was never an RPG character, she was a parody of them. However, there's a Slayers d20 book out there, and she may be statted in it...

I'm rather certain that the only thing the US Dragon Magazine and the Japan Dragon Magazine share are the name... they don't have any connection to TSR or Dungeons and Dragons.


Finally you have to remember what kind of character she is....TSUNDERE. If that doesn't make Chaotic I do not know what does.


Shana's particular brand of tsundere...ness is more about not being honest about her own feelings then anything else. It has little to do with the law/chaos axis in D&D. Actually, it's kind of lawful because Hazes aren't supposed to develop feelings for Mystes, they're just objects after all.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-11-26, 04:02 PM
Ryuhou and Kazuma in Scryed are a good example of CN and LN not getting along.

Lucy isn't evil, she doesn't kill out of malice or for pleasure, she kills out of disgust and force of habit. Her dialogue in the orphanage reveals that she has very high standards of right and wrong. She's not that chaotic either as she keeps her promise not to kill Kuruma and never acts on a whim. By the time the story begins she's got so used to killing any human in front of her that by the time she's decided whether or not to kill someone that person is already dead.

Is she good? Of course not, but the D&D alignment system doesn't really work for her. I might call her true neutral. You might call her Neutral evil if she was more out for herself, but wanting to survive isn't really an evil impulse so ruthlessly slaughtering people in self defence isn't really evil. If she tortured everyone and got pleasure out of it I'd agree that she was evil, but she only tortures that army guy and that was in direct repricocity for what he wanted to do to her. She could be said to torture Kuruma as well but that's also out of revenge. Revenge can be thought of as evil but it's a base instinct rather than malice. This form of 'eye for an eye' behavoir is lawful. She instantly kills people who threaten her and torments people who torment her. If she was chaotic then she's sometimes torment people who just threaten her and sometimes quickly kill people who torment her, but she always acts in response to how she's treated, even if her response is out of proportion with the way normal people do things she has her own sense of proportion where it is justified to her.

Too much of what she does is simple animalistic behavior mixed with misanthropy so I can't say she's much more than true neutral.

Scar is probably LN. He does bad things but it's all based off a religious moral code imparted by his society. He acts like an impartial judge, which is a lawful neutral archetype as well as a trait assigned to god in Judo-Christian mythology, which his fictional religion is inspired by. He doesn't go out of his way to hurt or harm random people like a good or evil person should, he just focuses on dispensing what he sees as his god's justice.

Light in my opinions goes LG -> LE in the first episode, then reverses that with him wiping/regaining his memory, then goes from LE -> CE when he becomes over confident and fully corrupt. One could argue that he never becomes CE and stays Lawful to the end though, even though his ideals are completely perverted at the end he still has them.

Jin is lawful and Mugen is chaotic. Both are neutral. Mugen has a lot of evil traits like enjoying violence and lack of sympathy with others but never fully goes over the edge. He never takes violence out of context and never actively seeks out people to inflict pain upon. Jin is kind to women all the time but is too proud and disciplined to be good.

Both are influenced by the laws of feudal Japanese society though. Mugen lives a bohemian lifestyle but still has a sense of honour, even if his honour is something gained only through the chaos of battle. Text book chaotic characters are hard to find in anime due to the nature of Japanese society. There are still plenty of chaotic characters but there are few paragons of randomness. I can't think of any anime character off the top of my head a discordian would completely agree with. The most chaotic anime characters are the truly insane ones such as Dilandau in Escaflowne, but even he uses a mockery of Samurai honour and loyalty to chanel his joy of random violence against people his master needs dead.

BlackStaticWolf
2007-11-26, 04:06 PM
I'm rather certain that the only thing the US Dragon Magazine and the Japan Dragon Magazine share are the name... they don't have any connection to TSR or Dungeons and Dragons.

I think he meant version in the sense of the magazine's Japanese equivalent, not version in the sense of shared titles.



As far as the whole alignment of Yagami Light goes... he's lawful evil the entire time. The fact that he obeys the rules of society and generally acts in a "nice" fashion prior to acquiring the Death Note is pure manipulation on his part. The second he gains the opportunity to enforce his will upon the world, he makes very liberal use of it. Keep in mind that his goal isn't just eliminate evil... it's to rule the new world as its god. In my view, eliminating behavior he happens to dislike is simply a means to an ends for him.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-11-26, 04:07 PM
Scar is probably LN. He does bad things but it's all based off a religious moral code imparted by his society. He acts like an impartial judge, which is a lawful neutral archetype as well as a trait assigned to god in Judo-Christian mythology, which his fictional religion is inspired by. He doesn't go out of his way to hurt or harm random people like a good or evil person should, he just focuses on dispensing what he sees as his god's justice.

Not that I necissarily disagree with you (I wouldn't be sure what alignment applies to Scar), but I'd like to point out Scar acts without the permission or sanction of Ishbalan society. Elders in the refugee camps counsel him several times to cease his mission. He considers Alchemy blasphemy against God, but I think his motives are much more personal (State Alchemists killed his family) and the religious rhetoric is just a gloss on that.

Dorizzit
2007-11-26, 04:14 PM
I'd still say he's Lawful Neutral, just obsessive and fanatic about his mission.

bluish_wolf
2007-11-26, 04:42 PM
I think he meant version in the sense of the magazine's Japanese equivalent, not version in the sense of shared titles.


It was originally serialized in Dragon magazine, though. Look:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gekkan_Dragon_Magazine

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-26, 04:57 PM
Okay, fine, it's from a fiction mag and not a gaming mag. It's still a D&D parody, though.

Behold_the_Void
2007-11-26, 07:16 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with Scar's alignment on the grounds that he's out there killing a bunch of people who may or may not have some kind of vague link to the torment he suffered in the past. In this context, innocents. He's not a very good person, although the later part of the anime does seem to show him moving towards some sort of redemption.

averagejoe
2007-11-26, 07:35 PM
He could still act maliciously without the Death Note. I'd argue that when he got the Death note and finally realized how he can and will change the world he became evil (My guess is, he knew he was doing evil and thus deserved to write himself in the notebook; but found a way around that by declaring himself a god). Having latent evil tendecies doesn't make you evil.

In my opinion, before he got the Death Note he started as Apathetic Lawful Natural

That he could still act maliciously without the death note means nothing. He could have acted maliciously with the death note, but he really doesn't. He doesn't really change at all, except that he mass murders people, not even out of malice, but with a higher goal in mind. I couldn't see Light stoop to petty malice at any point in the series. It's why paladins aren't supposed to just smite anyone with an evil aura; just because they register as evil doesn't mean they've done evil, and if they haven't done evil it's probably because they lack the means or opportunity. Sure, Light could have gotten away with murder withough the death note, but why would he want to murder anyone?


Hm, interesting you consider Jin lawful. To me, he seemed like the textbook example of Chaotic Good from episode one.

Basically, Jin is living on the run because he killed his own master. He never tries to explain the circumstances to his fellow students (that he was attacked) but merely duels them when confronted. An important facet of his character is that Jin is a Ronin because he considers no lords worthy of his sword. Sure, he's stoic and disciplined, but it's SELF-discipline. He's wholly unconcerned with society and its limits, and merely acts as his conscience dictates.

As far as Mugen goes, he's a former buccaneer and an unrepentant one. He fights and kills for fun, deliberately drawing out someone's suffering in order to get a challenging fight like he wants in the first episode. Mugen resorts to robbery when he's down on his luck and had no qualms about hacking his way through his "allies" when he worked for the Yakuza. What I'm getting at is I actually think for at least the first half of the series, Mugen is Chaotic Evil. It's possible he mellows to Neutral by the end, but simply because he begins to care for Fuu and Jin doesn't necissarily change the way he treats the rest of the world.

Well, good and evil aside, that Jin cares little about society is rather the point, and the thing most people get wrong about law/chaos. Jin has a lawful nature to him, or, if you prefer, "ordered" nature. I mean, it was pretty much the source of emnity between Jin and Mugen, on Jin's side at least. That's what Jin said in the first episode when they were both captured, and Jin was commenting on Mugen's fighting style, and he said (essentially) that Mugen's chaotic nature makes him one of the worst human beings. (I don't remember exactly what he said.) Law vs. chaos is there in their very manners and reactions, not their reaction to the law.

SurlySeraph
2007-11-26, 10:42 PM
That he could still act maliciously without the death note means nothing. He could have acted maliciously with the death note, but he really doesn't. He doesn't really change at all, except that he mass murders people, not even out of malice, but with a higher goal in mind. I couldn't see Light stoop to petty malice at any point in the series. It's why paladins aren't supposed to just smite anyone with an evil aura; just because they register as evil doesn't mean they've done evil, and if they haven't done evil it's probably because they lack the means or opportunity. Sure, Light could have gotten away with murder withough the death note, but why would he want to murder anyone?

And you don't think killing lots of people constitutes a major change in his behavior? He definitely becomes malicious when he starts killing innocent people and then even other people who fight criminals. I mean, he arranges L's death. L is the greatest detective in the world, and could have done a huge amount to wipe out crime had Light led him live. Light probably wouldn't have tried to remake the world in his own image if the Death Note hadn't made it so easy, but he did want to remake the world in his own image, and he would have killed for that. Light obviously had good goals, but he undeniably did tremendous evil.

averagejoe
2007-11-27, 12:56 AM
And you don't think killing lots of people constitutes a major change in his behavior? He definitely becomes malicious when he starts killing innocent people and then even other people who fight criminals. I mean, he arranges L's death. L is the greatest detective in the world, and could have done a huge amount to wipe out crime had Light led him live. Light probably wouldn't have tried to remake the world in his own image if the Death Note hadn't made it so easy, but he did want to remake the world in his own image, and he would have killed for that. Light obviously had good goals, but he undeniably did tremendous evil.

Yes, mass murder was a major change in his behavior, but it was a change that was brought on by the presence of an external, physical object, not a sudden change in his moral outlook.

As for the rest... I don't know, you seem to be agreeing with me, which leads me to believe that I may be misunderstanding it.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-27, 02:56 AM
I thought the point was that the Death Note corrupted him, One Ring-style, from a basically decent guy into a serial killer.

Don't look at me though, I never watched the show.

Xefas
2007-11-27, 03:14 AM
I'd be interested to know someone's thoughts of the FLCL characters' various alignments.

I mean, they all appear to be some kind of Chaotic Bat****, but is there anything deeper than that?

Behold_the_Void
2007-11-27, 03:16 AM
I thought the point was that the Death Note corrupted him, One Ring-style, from a basically decent guy into a serial killer.

Don't look at me though, I never watched the show.

It's theorized within the show, but never proven one way or another. However, L has it under lock for awhile and he never seems to have any compulsion to use it. Light's father outright refuses to use the Death Note at all, but of course Souichiro Yagami is VERY Lawful Good.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-11-27, 03:32 AM
I thought the point was that the Death Note corrupted him, One Ring-style, from a basically decent guy into a serial killer.

Don't look at me though, I never watched the show.

It's not the book itself, it's the power it gives that corrupts. The one ring works the same way really but there's some confusion over that due to its sentience (or Sauron's sentience).

It may have been that Light was meant to be corrupted by power but I don't think the author showed that very well. Light must have been the kind of person who wanted to kill criminals before he had the power to do so or he would have taken longer to go all mass murderer.

Tengu
2007-11-27, 04:50 AM
I'd be interested to know someone's thoughts of the FLCL characters' various alignments.

I mean, they all appear to be some kind of Chaotic Bat****, but is there anything deeper than that?

Let's see...

Most adults are Chaotic Neutral.
Most kids (including Naota) are Neutral.
Mamimi is borderline kid and borderline adult, but she's more chaotic neutral than just neutral. Ninamori's complete disregard of rules probably makes her chaotic too.
Canti is Neutral Good or Lawful Good.
Haruko is AD&D-style Chaotic Neutral or just plain Chaotic Evil.
She doesn't care how many worlds get destroyed on the way as long as she gets Atmosks' powers, and she's bat**** insane even for FLCL's standards.
Big Eyebrows and that brown skinned girl are probably Neutral Good (working for an organization whose sole purpose is to counter the movement of another, evil organization).

Talk about a series where the most mentally stable character is a robot.

And now there's something completely different.

Seto Kaiba - chaotic evil. "Screw the rules, I have money!"

Piedmon_Sama
2007-11-27, 04:53 AM
I'd be interested to know someone's thoughts of the FLCL characters' various alignments.

I mean, they all appear to be some kind of Chaotic Bat****, but is there anything deeper than that?


I'll bite.

Naota is True Neutral. He's a child, meandering through life, with no real sense of purpose or drive. He has a vague discontent with the state of things, indicating a lean towards chaos, but he doesn't have the drive to change anything on his own. He's also very studious out of habit, and tends to be very passive socially. At the end of the series, he passes out of boyhood into manhood and presumably becomes more assertive and individualist. He may eventually go Chaotic Neutral, but I can't recall well enough to say for sure.

Mamimi is the other character who goes through a complete arc in the series. But like Naota, it's a change to a more individualistic nature rather than an ethical growth. She starts out detatched, bitter over the loss of her boyfriend (Naota's older brother) interested only in video games... also, she caused at least one major disaster with no apparent remorse, but seemingly just because she's so out of it. I'd make a guess at Mamimi being Neutral, just because she seems so lost. In the very end she makes an Existential leap but we don't see enough of it for me to guess what her final Alignment is.

Haruko is.... I think this is going to raise a few eyebrows and my reasoning kind of gives away the series, so I'll put it in spoilers.

Neutral Evil. Sure, she acts like the carefree, winsome lass of a geek's fantasy, but that's what it is: an act. She's manipulating Naota the whole series, not to mention his dumbstruck father, to unknowingly aid her as she searches for Atomsk. She first says she wants to apprehend Atomsk as a member of the Space Police, then later that she "loves" him but the only thing she wants is Atomsk's power. She's utterly driven to get it; she smashes her way through anyone who obstructs her. Ultimately, she didn't care what happened to Naota as long as he did his part in unleashing Atomsk. Most of all, she was willing to let everyone on earth be mindwiped to get the power ("what do I care? They'll all have to learn to think smooth, I guess.") Amurao was a jerk, but he was genuinely trying to protect the earth from Medical Mechanica, which Haruko was willing to give free reign to.

I saw her friendly farewell as just another part of the act. She was trying to leave as little hostility behind her as possible. Then again, maybe she was genuinely blase about the fate of earth once Atomsk was out of her grasp. Nevertheless, she's an incredibly selfish character and Neutral Evil with a strong bent towards chaos describes her well.

As for Amurao... we don't see enough of him for me to form a judgement. He's a posturing, macho jerk but that's a facet of personality, not alignment. He's trying to protect earth, but it's a self-preservatory act just about anyone would do. Same for the Father. He's an absurd old horndog, doesn't really suggest his alignment except his behavior towards his son might indicate some kind of Neutral.

EDIT: on second thought, I'd peg the father as Chaotic Neutral. He's flighty, inconsistent, appears to have a very short attention span and devotes himself to absurd exercises like battling his son in a Panzer Tank. It's not the way the Alignment is usually played in D&D, but that's what I think it is.

Xefas
2007-11-27, 05:14 AM
Seto Kaiba - chaotic evil. "Screw the rules, I have money!"

Interesting aside about this. The manga has a whole lot more chaotic evil characters that they really really changed for the anime.

Anime Marik: I want to take over the world via card game!
Manga Marik: I want the protagonist to suffer and then I'll kill everyone.

Also the original Yugi was quite the bastard. "You totally just mildly bullied that guy! Time to rape your mind until you're the equivalent of a brain-dead vegetable and then laugh maniacally in my self-assurance that what I'm doing is righteous!"

Dorizzit
2007-11-27, 06:28 AM
Yugioh Manga = Fairly Dark and Awesome

Yugioh Anime = Censoring overload:smalleek:

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-27, 08:28 AM
Seto Kaiba - chaotic evil. "Screw the rules, I have money!"
Really, he struck me as more of a scheming, arrogant, Lawful Evil type when I watched the show as a kid.

However, I think every Abridged Series version of a character is either CE or too stupid to know the difference (Tristan), so there's that.

Xefas
2007-11-27, 08:49 AM
Really, he struck me as more of a scheming, arrogant, Lawful Evil type when I watched the show as a kid.

However, I think every Abridged Series version of a character is either CE or too stupid to know the difference (Tristan), so there's that.

I don't think anyone who spends inordinately large amounts of money time and again simply to settle a petty grudge over a card game can be Lawful.

Serious, eventually he's just yelling "And when I beat you this time, then it'll mean I'm the best! Y'know...even though I'm 0-3 so far...THIS is the time that counts."

Although...I suppose he shows some Lawful Stupid streaks, considering nothing ever convinces him of anything. He's like the Monty Python black knight.

"There's no such thing as magic"
"I just pulled you back in time. You saw me do it. We're here."
"No we aren't"
"I'm zapping you with ancient Egyptian laser beams as we speak."
"That's just a trick."
"You're lapsing into a coma!"
"Well, I meant to do that."

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-27, 09:12 AM
I don't think anyone who spends inordinately large amounts of money time and again simply to settle a petty grudge over a card game can be Lawful.
Ridiculous obsessions over petty rivalries aren't Lawful?

Also, and I stopped watching the original show around the time they explained this, so I'm cribbing from the Abridged Series, but aren't Yugi and Kaiba reincarnations of some archetypal rivals, destined to play card games against each other for all eternity? Following one's destiny is pretty Lawful, regardless of how incredibly inane that destiny is.

Xefas
2007-11-27, 09:26 AM
Ridiculous obsessions over petty rivalries aren't Lawful?

Also, and I stopped watching the original show around the time they explained this, so I'm cribbing from the Abridged Series, but aren't Yugi and Kaiba reincarnations of some archetypal rivals, destined to play card games against each other for all eternity? Following one's destiny is pretty Lawful, regardless of how incredibly inane that destiny is.

It's not the obsession itself, but rather the self-destructive ends he's willing to go to sate his obsession. Sure, a Lawful Evil baron might spend a few thousand gold every month on his assassination budget on the off chance it nets him a huge boost in political power, but he isn't going to say "Well, alright, that guy beat me in a game of cricket, time to spend 70% of our revenues this year designing elaborate ways to get him back!"

Does that sound more Formian-like or more Slaad-like?

And yes, that is their destiny. It's a **** destiny, and Kaiba basically says straight up that it's a **** destiny and tries as hard as possible to defy it (and fails). The best part of the destiny being that the final climax has absolutely nothing to do with it. They basically spend the entire anime/manga saying that it's the most important thing ever, and then BAM, right at the end, Bakura is like "Yeah, I realize I didn't actually do anything for this entire series, but surprise, I'm actually the main antagonist! Guess that's the reason why I was included at all!"

As a consolation, however, the manga version of Bakura plays Pen&Paper RPGs, and actually DMs some HeroQuest-esque game way at the beginning for everyone, so that kinda makes him awesome.

Tengu
2007-11-27, 11:02 AM
Wait, there exists any Yu-Gi-Oh other than the Abridged Series?

And a note to FLCL characters - I realized that there aren't really that many kid characters there, so putting them together won't be really useful. Especially that when you exclude Naota, Ninamori and Mamiri, only those two guys (whose names I forgot) remain - and we don't see enough of them to really judge their alignments, though the one in glasses is probably more chaotic than neutral ("chuu chuu chuu!!").

Setra
2007-11-27, 11:13 AM
Not gonna go in-depth on any of these, too lazy right now.

Himura Kenshin
Neutral Good

The Gundam Wing guys

Heero
Lawful Neutral

Duo
Chaotic Good

Trowa
True Neutral(?)

Quatre
Neutral Good

Wu Fei
Chaotic Neutral

Milliardo
Lawful Evil

ZebulonCrispi
2007-11-27, 12:19 PM
I think we can all agree that Haruko is Something Evil Funky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55828).

Actually, almost everyone in FLCL is slanted towards the Funky end. Except for Amarao, because he's such a dork.

Xefas
2007-11-27, 12:32 PM
I think we can all agree that Haruko is Something Evil Funky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55828).

Actually, almost everyone in FLCL is slanted towards the Funky end. Except for Amarao, because he's such a dork.

Hey, nori eyebrows aren't dorky! They're manly.

And while they were really easy to make, I'm not entirely sure how to keep them on without actually gluing them to my real eyebrows, which probably isn't a good idea.

ZebulonCrispi
2007-11-27, 02:31 PM
Hey, nori eyebrows aren't dorky! They're manly.

And while they were really easy to make, I'm not entirely sure how to keep them on without actually gluing them to my real eyebrows, which probably isn't a good idea.

If I recall, the eyebrows in the show tended to have trouble staying attatched to people's faces.

You have to give Amarao credit: He really tries to be cool. Whether or not it works is debatable, but his desperation to be awesome is kind of endearing either way.

Tengu
2007-11-27, 03:40 PM
Hey, nori eyebrows aren't dorky! They're manly.

And while they were really easy to make, I'm not entirely sure how to keep them on without actually gluing them to my real eyebrows, which probably isn't a good idea.

What about some glue that dissolves in sweat? Amarao seems to lose his eyebrows in nervous situations, so that kinda makes sense.

F.H. Zebedee
2007-11-28, 01:49 AM
I think that Zaraki started out before the series as heavily Chaotic Evil, and upon entry, was still Chaotic Evil. Still, I think that between Ichigo and Yachiru and such, he's SLOWLY creeping towards Chaotic Neutral. Maybe by the next time we get a good glimpse of him he'll be in the CN with evil tendencies side of things, not CE with some neutral tendencies.

Tousen, I think that he may be hoping to play Aizen or somehow otherwise act as damage control (at least, that's what I'm guessing he means by "path of least bloodshed"), though it's very unclear with his whole act. Depending on what he does towards the end, he may be LN or LE, though his present depiction is LE.

The protagonists?
-Ichigo: CG, very muchly so. Altruistic and loyal, but sees no problem with breaking any rule that gets in his way.
-Orihime: CG or NG, depending. She's random and disorganized, but heavily favors following rules as long as they are somewhat towards Good.
-Chad: LG, definately. I'd say he's bordering on a paragon of it, with the "Only using violence to protect others" and such.
-Uryu: LG, though he wants everybody to think he's LN
-Ganju: CN, maybe CG. Either way, has tendencies towards the other one.
-Rukia: Starts as LN (Or LG trying to be LN), and slowly progresses toward NG.
-Renji: CG, with a very strong C.
-Hanataro: LG, clearly.
-Yoruichi: CG most likely, though CN or NG wouldn't surprise me too much.
-Kisuke: CN to the extreme. Possibly a magnificent bastard while still being chaotic, no mean feat.

Hmmm... I think I'll cover Big O and Paranoia Agent tomorrow. They've got some fun ones.

ZebulonCrispi
2007-11-28, 02:49 AM
I'd call Hanatarô NG. Remember, he stole the key to Rukia's cell.

Ceska
2007-11-28, 02:57 AM
Following one's destiny is pretty Lawful, regardless of how incredibly inane that destiny is.
But he's actually trying to defy his destiny, he just fails utterly.

turkishproverb
2007-11-28, 03:36 AM
Not gonna go in-depth on any of these, too lazy right now.

Himura Kenshin
Neutral Good

The Gundam Wing guys

Heero
Lawful Neutral

Duo
Chaotic Good

Trowa
True Neutral(?)

Quatre
Neutral Good

Wu Fei
Chaotic Neutral

Milliardo
Lawful Evil


Funny, I'd think differetn on the gundam Wing characters

Wu Fei:
Lawful Neutral (everything is about his bizzare code of Justice

Quatre:
Lawful Good (same) Follows his particular sense of ethics whenever possible, focused on saving lives. Basically, a Hijo style paladin.

Duo:
Chaotic Good (no disagreement)

Trowa:
He's hard. takes orders, but does things, however underhanded, to save lives (SEE enldess waltz) Probably Neutral Good.

Heero:
Neutral (Orders are everything, even if violate ethics, up until they stop coming, however, everything for him is about having a purpose. Switches sides to charismatic leaders a couple times, particularly relena, in the end, focused primarily on a good goal, but for possible selfish/legacy reasons (episode Zero: we discover the man who raised him assasinated the origional Heero Yuy) Chaotic means to accomplish lawful ends, and Lawful menas to accomplish chaotic ends. Both neutral.

Milliardo
Neutral Evil: Its all about revenge for him, simply expanding as his origional target goes away.

Tengu
2007-11-28, 03:49 AM
I'd call Hanatarô NG. Remember, he stole the key to Rukia's cell.

That's just a single act of chaos. He's pretty much lawful otherwise.

And I think that Renji started CN, but turned CG when he joined the ranks of good guys (when he was fighting with Byakuya he was already good) - he wanted to kill Ichigo after all, not a very good act in my book. Though he might have been just acting and thinking desperately.

Behold_the_Void
2007-11-28, 03:52 AM
That's just a single act of chaos. He's pretty much lawful otherwise.

And I think that Renji started CN, but turned CG when he joined the ranks of good guys (when he was fighting with Byakuya he was already good) - he wanted to kill Ichigo after all, not a very good act in my book. Though he might have been just acting and thinking desperately.

He didn't just steal the key, he actively collaborated with the ryoka to save Rukia. Really, despite his general weakness, Hanatarou was trying to do what he felt was right as best he could. Seems pretty NG to me.

Tengu
2007-11-28, 03:59 AM
And how a Lawful Good character would act on his place? I don't buy the "Neutral Good is more good than Lawful Good or Chaotic Good because it's not bound by neither law nor chaos" theory. LG and CG characters will not stop performing good deeds when law/freedom get in their way.

But hey, it's just an anime character. But I still think LG is more fitting than NG for him.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-28, 05:00 AM
But he's actually trying to defy his destiny, he just fails utterly.
Well, like I said, I stopped watching the show around the start of season two (either they changed the time slot or I aged past 12 years old). I was just going by his "Best. Destiny. Ever." quote in the Abridged series, which apparently was completely the opposite of his actual attitude.

AslanCross
2007-11-28, 06:02 AM
Code Geass (Am I the only one who watched this here?)

Lelouch Lamperouge

aka Prince Lelouch vi Britannia. This guy has been living for revenge since he was a kid. He wants to destroy the Britannian empire, which he believes is responsible for the death of his mother, Queen Marianne, and the crippling of his sister. He wants to create the "perfect world" where he and his sister can live peacefully. However, this seemingly altruistic vision seems to exclude everyone else. He might be Neutral Evil.

However, Lelouch is extremely methodical in everything he does for most of the series. (Later on he simply becomes a victim of circumstance as his intricate plans begin to collapse around him because of his own hubris). On the other hand, this involves a lot of double-crossing, including his own friends. To his credit, he attempts to save his best friend and convince him to join his crusade, but the best friend is too LG to agree. After that he simply thinks his friend is a nuisance. He still won't kill him outright, but he probably would if he had to.

Most likely neutral evil.

Suzaku Kururugi
Lelouch's childhood friend. Suzaku is thoroughly LG. He's compassionate, self-sacrificing, and valiant in battle. He firmly believes that what he does will make the world better. He works within the system even if he knows that the system is oppressive.

He seems Lawful Stupid because he often blindly follows orders. Even when he is offered a chance to join his best friend (who he doesn't know is his enemy yet), he turns it down and attempts to trap Lelouch as his own allies fire a missile strike at him, hoping to kill Lelouch.

On the other hand, the reason for his Lawful Stupidity might be that he has a deathwish. Having killed his own father, he feels that he doesn't deserve to live and should die in the most valiant way possible. It may be actual repentance, or simple vanity. We may never know. (I do think he's sincerely good, though)

Kallen Statfeld
Freedom fighter. Hot temper. Chaotic Good, no doubt.

Millay Ashford
CG. Albeit being the student president of her father's school, she's capricious and likes harassing Shirley. However, she has always shown care and compassion for her fellow students, especially the younger ones.

Shirley Fenette
She's one of the ultimate victims in this series. She was only a normal student who had a crush on Lelouch, but got drawn so far into the twisted web of intrigue that she suffered a lot more than she deserved. NG.

Rivaltz
Lelouch's partner in crime when playing hooky. CN, but possibly CG. Not really an important character.

Nina
She's another victim here, but she's made of stronger (or less stable) psychological stock than Shirley. She only had a crush on Princess Euphemia, but when Euphemia died, she was perfectly willing to blow the entire school sky-high with a nuke if Lelouch didn't show up. NG, rendered CE by insanity and heartbreak.

C.C.
An immortal, mysterious being who doesn't even know what her true identity and nature are. She's gone through a cycle of loss as long as she can remember. For most of the series, she's TN as she loves nothing but pizza.
When she finally opens up to Lelouch, however, she seems to have fallen in love with him and is willing to sacrifice herself for him. Still TN, maybe, but with NG tendencies.

Ougi
This guy wants a free Japan, but doesn't really seem to have it in him to fight a lot. He is extremely loyal to Lelouch as he believes Lelouch to be a savior-figure for Japan, without knowing his true intentions. He was a schoolteacher in his past and is known for compassion. I'd say NG.

Diethard
TN, no doubt. He's a Britannian who betrayed his own nation because he saw the potential Lelouch has to create the most sensational story of the century. He's in it for himself, but he doesn't seem to have willingly murdered anyone out of cold blood.

Lloyd
He's only concerned with his research. TN.

Laksharta
See Lloyd. TN.

Jeremiah Gottwald
Orange-kun used to be Lawful Evil at his prime. He was a knight of the empire and adhered strongly to the Purist Faction, which refused to let naturalized non-Britannians into the army, let alone the knighthood. However, after he got smacked so hard by Kallen, he became unbalanced and thoroughly insane. At the end of the series, he ends up as CE, living only to kill Lelouch.

Viletta Nu
She's as much of a Purist as Orange-kun, and probably more ambitious. She wants more than knighthood. LE. When she lost her memory and became one of the hottest characters ever in Code Geass, she showed a sweet and compassionate side that only wanted peace. NG, though this didn't last long, much to poor Ougi's disappointment.

Clovis La Britannia
Although he was known to the Britannian Imperial family as a gentle scholar and patron of the arts, Prince Clovis seemed to be thoroughly concerned with his position in the Imperial Family. He ordered the massacre of an entire Japanese ghetto just to cover up the stupidity of his lackeys. He is inconsistent although not capricious. A weak and cowardly man, but NE nonetheless.

Cornelia Li Britannia
LE, albeit tempered by her love for her little sister. She is more than willing to squash and oppress the Japanese. She believes in the supremacy of her race, although she did not order pogroms like Clovis did, but was still dedicated to stamping out the resistance. No doubt she's LE.

Euphemia Li Britannia
Princess Euphie was courageous against oppression of any kind, but her actions were mostly rash and seemingly unwise. She was bad at politics, although she did her best to use her position (ultimately sacrificing her nobility) for a free Japanese state. Neutral Good.

…until, of course, she was Geassed by Lelouch and she ordered a massacre of the Japanese people at the very ceremony meant to proclaim their freedom.

Schneizel El Britannia
The White Prince is thoroughly enigmatic. He is definitely pursuing his own agendas, but his relationship with his father seems uncertain. His agendas are as of yet not revealed. (Darn it, I want Season 2!) I'd like to say NE, but it's too soon.

Emperor Britannia
A tyrannical old man who believes in racial supremacy. He encourages strife among his old children so that his next heir may be the strongest (a lot like Lolth, IMO), but is otherwise thoroughly dedicated to domination and not destruction. His ultimate agendas seem completely sinister, but they've never been truly revealed. As far as we can tell, he is Lawful Evil without any qualms, reservations, or compassion.

hanzo66
2007-11-28, 10:29 AM
I've seen Code Gassy (my nickname for the show) at the urging of some others. Still, you make for a pretty strong argument. Most of them are pretty on-spot. Suzaku did seem a bit Lawful Stupid for me for a few episodes. Ledouch does seems to care only about his little sister and is willing to screw over the entire planet to have a good life for her. King Rollo (my nickname for the Emperor) is for the moment a strong example of Lawful Evil who encourages Chaos among followers/heirs.

It's a decent show, but nothing like "ZOMG the best show ever!!!"`

Blue Paladin
2007-11-28, 05:36 PM
Also the original Yugi was quite the bastard. "You totally just mildly bullied that guy! Time to rape your mind until you're the equivalent of a brain-dead vegetable and then laugh maniacally in my self-assurance that what I'm doing is righteous!"Fixed for you. The original manga Yuugi was an ****, and proud of it.


But [Kaiba]'s actually trying to defy his destiny, he just fails utterly.Only if you watch the anime. If you read the manga, he absolutely succeeds. He ditches everyone after Battle City and isn't seen at all in the final story arcs. He makes a cameo for the last splash page.

Dorizzit
2007-11-28, 05:47 PM
Although to be fair he didn't go around doing it to civilians. The people totally had it coming (sort of...does bullying people into selling concert tickets count?)

hanzo66
2007-12-02, 07:50 AM
I know this isn't a Manga/Anime character but I just had this thought...

Zim
Chaotic Evil (believes himself to be Lawful Evil)
The Irkens Armada seem to be of Usually Lawful Evil alignment. Zim, although is loyal to his superiors lacks any Lawfulness in his actions. He is highly impulsive, automatically doing the first thing that comes to his mind. He is still Evil, having committed mass slaughter of his own people (first episode with the Battlemech) and refusing to acknowledge it as a mistake as well as needlessly sacrificing all of his squadmates upon being made their leader in an obstacle course.

HeroicSociopath
2008-05-24, 02:31 AM
However, I think every Abridged Series version of a character is either CE or too stupid to know the difference (Tristan), so there's that.
No wah'!

As an avid fan of the abridged series...


Yami Yugi--True Neutral. He seems pretty morally apathetic all-in-all.

Little Yugi--Neutral evil. Mostly do to the fact that his friends suck and his grandpa's a senial old coot.

Grandpa--True neutral leaning neutral good, just senial.

Duke Devlin--True Neutral, leaning good. Has an uber charisma and is just too full of himself to be full blown good, but fealt bad about being a **** to the others.

Tristian--Arguably lawful good. Just increddibly stupid. "Burn the witch!"

Joey--Chaotic neutral leaning chaotic evil. "Hey, remember that time we took your millenium puzzle?" "*Has the prize money* What sister?"

Bakura--Neutral evil, though a harmless villain.

Pegasus--Chaotic evil. He's going to spiceup your life then molest children lol!

Marik--Lawful evil, just very very bad at it. But that's what happens when your dominate person is limited to guys named Steve.

Tea--Chaotic good. She has good intentions, but is too horny/idiotic to make much use of them.

Mako--Neutral good. I was going to say chaotic good cause he's socially inempt. But he tries not to be.

Bonez--True Neutral. He's just kindof there for comedic dialogue and does a fantastic job.

Rex/Weevil--Both are chaotic neutral. And do a great job. Weevil's a bit more evil leaning then Rex though.

Mai Valentine--Not very subtle about her neutral evil alignment. But then again nothing about her is subtle...

Bandit Keith--It's a well known fact that he's lawful good...In America!
(Mindyou, in abridged he never betrays his comrades as in the anime, he has perfectly good reason to hate Pegasus, and he's just generally a cheesy guy.)

Seto Kaiba--Lawful evil. Screw the rules, I have money is more lawful evil then chaotic evil. Chaotic evil are communist bastards who'd just do things anyway lol!

Mokubai--Chaotic neutral leaning true neutral.

Rebecca--true neutral leaning lawful neutral, and the teddy bear is chaotic evil, reeeaaallly chaotic evil lol!

Tengu
2008-05-24, 08:40 AM
THREAD NECROMANCY, HO!
http://www.mythinglinks.org/Dianne~necromancy~r35darkd.jpg

hanzo66
2008-05-24, 03:59 PM
But 'Tis such a great thread! And now I believe we have some new targets to match now...

Kato
2008-05-24, 04:29 PM
So many people too be judged...

Lets start with Light Yagami, which is highly controversal:
I think he's a damn Miko! He considers whatever he does to be good and and law-abiding. He doesn't even realize he does wrong things. But ultimately, he's probably... hm... chaotic... neutral... he can be considered evil as well, because he ultimately is driven crazy with power. His original self might be either neutral are chaotic good...


Then let's take some Char's and other Gundam characters. I'm still trying to get the first series, so just some newer ones...

Milliardo Peacecraft: Who said neutral evil? o.o He's like... so not evil! He's far more a chaotic good, much as Yagami's original self...

He tries to draw the hatred of all the world towards himself, so they might stop fighting each other


Treize Kushrenada: This ones quite a pain in the ass... he's mostly law-abiding, using laws so they might aid him... but also using intrigues to reach his goals... Hm... in the end... he wants power, but he's not that much of an evil person... probably true neutral, but can go all the ways around, except the four corners...

Master Asia: Hard... might be a... Chaotic good or neutral... or evil... whatever you consider someone who's trying to kill all humans to save earth... often used character, I know... like some crazy druid trying to protect nature

Argo Gulski Space pirate with heart... Might be a Chaotic good one. Most probable.

Celestial Being: Yeah, I'm throwing all of them together... They ultimate goal is definitely a good one... their actions are either neutral or chaotic... I'll go with neutral, cause they're just doing, what's necessary.

Team Trinity: Much alike... but more chaotic... might even go down to neutral completely...

Graham Acre/Sergej Smirnov etc: Probably all lawful good ones... the whole counter part... some are less law-abiding, some more neutral, but generally they're all good ones.

Ali al-Sarchez: Burn in hell, m***f*** ^^ He's like THE incarnation of a chaotic evil. he doesn't care for laws and his sole purpose is fight and kill. OMG, he's Belkar without the good sparkle within...


Yeah... some i can think of... I'd like to take part in other discussion's as well ^^

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-24, 09:56 PM
Hmm. Well, let me crib one from TVTropes:

Nanoha Takamachi: so very Lawful Good. Helpful, determined, hardworking, kind to everyone and everything (including and especially her enemies), and has this weird habit of taking in orphans and giving them loving homes. Also all the more Lawful for, unlike every other anime protagonist ever, actually working with the proper authorities (well, proper magical authorities, she still runs from the cops), rather than rejecting them out of hand.

Most of the Nanoha "villains" (for the first two seasons which are all I've seen) are various flavors of moral-Neutral or a reluctant Evil, doing evil things reluctantly out of love or duty. They all eventually Face Turn to their Good equivalents. Exception: Precia Testarossa, who needs to burn in hell.

Echowinds
2008-05-24, 10:30 PM
Personally, I think Light Yagami is Chaotic Neutral from the get-go, but quickly went off in evil range. No good person would wantonly kill people right off the bat, especially when they are Good individuals. Most of the police officers with an apparent penalty to intelligence are pretty much lawful goods. L, however, should be a Chaotic Neutral.

Really, the darker the show, the more evil characters there are. Lyrical Nanoha, being a quite light hearted show most often, has many good characters. A really dark show, such as Texhnolyze, has no Good characters. Maybe arguably 1. The few protagonists are generally Neutral, which made them seem good in the sea of evil people in a dystopia.

Most shounen heroes are lawful-to-neutral goods. Actually, most heroes are good, but it is most prevalent in shounen.

Shana I think starts off as a Lawful Neutral, but moved towards Good due to Yuuji Sakai's influence.

Haruhi Suzumiya is pretty much Chaotic, but I am not sure is she Good or Neutral. In shows without blatand killings, it is much more difficult to tell a person's moral alignment.

HeroicSociopath
2008-05-24, 11:04 PM
I think you're forgetting the prospect of the deathnote.

A: Death becomes easy to inflict.

B: Death becomes discreet to inflict.


Nobody around to judge you.
Nobody around to stop you.

Your will becomes reality. Light is far too altruistic to be chaotic neutral. A chaotic neutral character would've used the deathnote on people he hated like a small child..

A neutral evil person would use the deathnote as an older person, selfish ambitions of power and prestige.

Light, as a teenager, used the deathnote for ideology. This makes him lawful if nothing else. I think he was lawful good at the beggining, lawful good does not mean nice, or merciful. He had a very clear distinction between good and evil, and went out of his way to insure only truly despicable people died. Infact remember how the false Kira angerd him for just killing criminals randomly? Not taking into consideration criminals who reformed?

Light truly had a sense of justice. But became engrossed in keeping his tracks clean, obsessive with defeating L, and his alignment shifted eviler and eviler along the way. No doubt the deathnote itself has an [Evil] property as well. I mean comeon, there's a spell in the book of vile darkness called heart-stop for crying outloud..


L is lawful neutral. He's calm, he follows the rules, (sortof..) and he has his own sense of justice that seems rather awckward and amoral to those around him. To L this was all a game. Sure he was concerned about lives, but only because it was partof the game. He's mentally deranged, there's no doubting that. But mentally deranged does not mean chaotic nesscarily. Infact most serial killers could be considerd very lawful in their nature..


Now if I had the deathnote. I'd have just wrote the names of politicians, thus putting out country into a state of panic and chaos mwahahaha awesome..


L would quickly discover my piss poor educational level cause I don't know the names of leaders outside America, nor much care to learn them, proving beyond a doubt I'm a typical lower middle-class American, more then likely in the younger range with enough time on my hands to write crap in my notebook..


Then ofcourse it'd be a matter of finding me. But then I'd make the shinigami eye-trade and be prepared. And at the very least, could carry two notebooks, one that isn't a deathnote, and the other that is, one to write names of people I plan to judge later, rather then kill'em where they stand. I'm chaotic...not an idiot... lol!

Drascin
2008-05-25, 05:31 AM
Hmm. Well, let me crib one from TVTropes:

Nanoha Takamachi: so very Lawful Good. Helpful, determined, hardworking, kind to everyone and everything (including and especially her enemies), and has this weird habit of taking in orphans and giving them loving homes. Also all the more Lawful for, unlike every other anime protagonist ever, actually working with the proper authorities (well, proper magical authorities, she still runs from the cops), rather than rejecting them out of hand.

Actually, the one with the adopting addiction is Fate, as one discovers seeing StrikerS :smalltongue:, but yeah, I'd say Lawful Good is pretty spot-on for Nanoha (growing up in a family inspired by a family of honor-bound ninjas will do that to you), even if she gets a tad chaotic with the methods at times.

To continue with the series...

Fate Testarossa: Starts as Lawful Neutral with many Good tendencies - she means good deep down, and she's trying to "save" her, but she follows the orders of her deranged evil b*tch of a mother without questioning, even if it means hurting others. After the befriending, a bit of reflection on The Power of Friendship and on second chances gets her to go full-on Lawful Good in a relatively short time. I also get the feeling in StrikerS that she's gone almost or completely Neutral Good there, but I can't really present evidence of that. It's just a gut feeling from the way she conducts herself.

Yuuno Scrya: A tad difficult to adjudicate. Obviously less Lawful than Nanoha by a longshot, but I wouldn't really call him out-and-out chaotic, as he does feel the twinge of guilt and duty. I'd say Neutral Good, for the most part

Precia Testarossa: Chaotic Insane. Seriously, that woman is completely messed up in the head. Also about as Evil as they get.

Vita: There can be hardly a doubt Vita is Chaotic - about the only lawful thing she has is her unwavering loyalty to Hayate (that turns her into an absolute Determinator), but her career is full of bouts of unstoppable rage, ignoring direct orders, and generally smashing anything and everything that gets (or looks like it might get) in her way. In the other axis, I'd classify her as Neutral turning Good through continuous exposure to Hayate first, Nanoha later, and finally the Section Six forwards.

Signum: Anyone here doubting Signum is Lawful?

*sound of crickets*

Thought so. In the other axis, I'd say about the same as Vita, though I get the feeling she was faster to reach there.

Shamal: This one is a bit trickier. She uses some underhanded methods a couple of times, but she's the one most concerned with the safety of the others and generally the more pleasant to be around. Since I believe Good people can do some less chivalrous stuff without losing the alignment, I'd say she was already almost Neutral Good (starting as True Neutral) from the get-go, and Hayate's influence just reafirmed it

Zafira: Again, easy Lawful Neutral here. I'm not really sure how much Good he becomes, actually - he seems to stay Lawful Neutral for the next season too.

Hayate Yagami: Solidly into Neutral Good territory. Hayate's a humble girl with little other worry than to make sure people (particularly the ones she loves) is not hurt. She later gets a high ranking in a military organization, but her main drive to do so is to avoid a predicted disaster and getting to help people and solve dangerous issues from a position of power. She follows the rules mostly, but has little qualms in setting things up if that would help.

Subaru Nakajima: Subaru is pretty much the poster girl for Chaotic Good. Genki girl, jester, attacks inspired by GaoGaiGar, driven solely by a drive to "save" others as she herself was saved, and putting her friends much above the rules even while in a military organization.

Teana Lanster: Teana's an odd case. From the get-go, she's much too chaotic and against the official rules at times to be Lawful, but much too lawful and bound to her self-imposed life mission and family pride to be chaotic; much too self-absorbed to be actually Good but also much too worried deep down by her friends and moral to be actually Evil. Teana manages to be one of those rare people who are True Neutralnot due to apathy, but because they keep basically every alignment in balance. Still, I'd say she progresses more towards Good as the series goes on, and towards being slightly more lawful after Nanoha chews her out a little. I admit as much discussion as you want on this one - I'm completely unsure of how to peg her.

...Ooops, gotta go. I'll keep going with the rest of Section Six when I come back :smallbiggrin:

Fri
2008-05-25, 06:01 AM
L is lawful neutral. He's calm, he follows the rules, (sortof..) and he has his own sense of justice that seems rather awckward and amoral to those around him. To L this was all a game. Sure he was concerned about lives, but only because it was partof the game. He's mentally deranged, there's no doubting that. But mentally deranged does not mean chaotic nesscarily. Infact most serial killers could be considerd very lawful in their nature..



Now... do you remember L's most famous word when he first meet Light's father and his team?

"Justice will Prevail!"

or something like that. In my country, the official translation was something more to "Good will prevail"

Doesn't that make him good?

Freshmeat
2008-05-25, 07:06 AM
I believe L to be true neutral. He doesn't care about good or evil at all, despite his "Justice will prevail!" comment. In one of the later chapters in the manga (as recollected by Near) he even admits to the other kids at Watari's orphanage that it's not a matter of justice at all: he just likes to solve difficult puzzles. It's probable that he doesn't give much of a damn about whether a killer is on the loose or not and how many people he kills - as long as he can ultimately outsmart his target, he's having fun.

Lawful or chaotic: I'd go with neither. L shows inclinations to either spectrum, but not overly much so. He follows rules, but not to extreme extents. On the other hand, h also acts highly irrationally and unpredictably from time to time, sometimes bordering on outright childishness, and is perfectly willing to bend (or even break) the rules here and there if it'll make him win (remember how willing he was to torture Misa?). To those arguing that he's lawful: would a lawful person refuse to go after a new Kira on the basis that "he has no interest in this killer"? (as he did after the Kira case was over)
L doesn't work that way: he just takes cases he's interested in. To him, duty is of no importance.

All added up, I think one could quite easily say that L cares about neither the morality of his actions nor his methods: if it works, it works, and he's not the type to be told by anyone how he should solve cases.

Obrysii
2008-05-25, 07:20 AM
Sesshomaru (Inuyasha)
Definitely Lawful Evil. He's got a compassionate side (His attitude toward Kagura and Rin come to mind) but his has no qualms about murdering anyone in his way. He is cool and collected, and he always warns foes that he will kill them.

Well,
Sesshoumaru shifts dramatically towards Lawful Good after he spends a considerable amount of time with Rin. When she dies while in Hell, he mourns for her - and I think this is the point where his alignment shifts strongly towards Good. So much so that he can use the Tensaiga's full powers, where it is a purely Good sword as well.

For another anime, not well-liked on the forum:

Third Hokage: Lawful Good - he's a kind, caring grand-pa like figure who was opposed to war, but was willing to lay down his life to protect those he loved - the village.

Naruto: Chaotic Good. He doesn't usually follow rules, but good is clearly in his heart.

Sasuke:Lawful Evil, post timeskip. He doesn't attempt to kill people unless they leave him no choice, but abandoning all bonds with your friends? Threatening to murder them when they come after you?

Gaara:Chaotic Evil at first, Lawful Good as Kazekage. Naruto shifts Gaara from a psychotic killer to someone who would put his life on the line for the village.

Itachi Uchiha:At first, it appears he's Chaotic Evil. He seems to have killed his family for, for lack of a better term, the "lulz" - but if what Madara says is true, he is Lawful Evil or Lawful Good, depending on your point of view - he's a very gray character. He killed the Uchiha in order to keep peace in Konoha (and in extension, the rest of the ninja world) on orders from Konoha's elders (minus the Third Hokage). He allowed his name to be dragged in the mud and his legacy to be forever tarnished to keep war from reigniting. For those who believe the ends justifies the means, he's lawful good. For those who don't, he's lawful evil.

ArmorArmadillo
2008-06-03, 02:53 PM
Light, as a teenager, used the deathnote for ideology. This makes him lawful if nothing else. I think he was lawful good at the beggining, lawful good does not mean nice, or merciful. He had a very clear distinction between good and evil, and went out of his way to insure only truly despicable people died. Infact remember how the false Kira angerd him for just killing criminals randomly? Not taking into consideration criminals who reformed?

Light truly had a sense of justice. But became engrossed in keeping his tracks clean, obsessive with defeating L, and his alignment shifted eviler and eviler along the way. No doubt the deathnote itself has an [Evil] property as well. I mean comeon, there's a spell in the book of vile darkness called heart-stop for crying outloud..

I would call Light NE. He is so selfish and arrogant that it's kind of sickening...he considers himself a god, has no quams about using others, and is more than willing to kill people whose only 'crimes' are opposing him.

What keeps him from being LE is that he doesn't really follow his own strict sense of morality...he may want the world to be in a perfect state of good and harmony; but only if he can kill whoever he wants. Most people, even the Chaotic, want others to be lawful and organized...it makes things easier for them. Lawful is about governing how you act.


As for Sesshomarou, I wouldn't call him good. Yes, he shows compassion for Rin, but really just for Rin. Evil people can have emotional attachments, it's how the react in general that really determines them.