Shrink Item insta kill?

[olelia]

Shrink Item
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level
Duration: One day/level; see text
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

You are able to shrink one nonmagical item (if it is within the size limit) to 1/16 of its normal size in each dimension (to about 1/4,000 the original volume and mass). This change effectively reduces the object’s size by four categories. Optionally, you can also change its now shrunken composition to a clothlike one. Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster. Even a burning fire and its fuel can be shrunk by this spell. Restoring the shrunken object to its normal size and composition ends the spell.

Shrink item can be made permanent with a permanency spell, in which case the affected object can be shrunk and expanded an indefinite number of times, but only by the original caster.


So I've heard the tactic with iron walls but I had a thought and will describe it in a step by step process.

1. Cast Iron Wall
2. Shrink it into a clothlike substance as per the spell.

These are of course precast measures for later

3. Get the cleric to cast hold monster/person on creature/human and lets say he/it fails.
4. Insert cloth into said creatures/persons mouth and possibly down his throat.
5. Dispel shrink item

So...would this be a valid insta kill tactic? It wouldn't even have to be an iron wall...it could be anything like say a greatsword...or a small tree.

[Keld Denar]

A) You don't have line of effect to the inside of a person, therefore can't activate the command word on an item contained fully inside of another person.

B) If you've gone through all the effort to make the target helpless, why not just CDG them? Its quicker and makes a lot less mess.

[olelia]

So what happens if your in said creatures stomach and cannot make the concentration check due to the continuous crushing/acid damage.

[Keld Denar]

Then you've crossed over from the core rules to the just plain wierd. The short answer is, the creature is killed. So are you. In fact, your body is probably so horribly mangled that you require a resurection to reverse, instead of just a raise dead.

The long answer is, if this is really coming up in your games, I know a couple of really skilled psychologists.

[weenie]

There's a better use to this spell in my opinion. Simply cast it on someone's armor without the clothlike option. That should crush them pretty bad I suppose. But sadly this use of the spell reminds me of the whole "I teleport a sword in Tiamat's heart" thing, so I'm not completley sure any DM woul approve of such spell usage..

[Randel]

Another slightly more expensive option.

Get your hands on several cubic feet of food. (such as meat or pasta) shrink it and wait for the duration to get close to running out before feeding it to somebody.

Or use the iron wall thing, turn it into a clothlike substance and then use prestidigitation to make it taste like candy.



Or you could take huge object, like a boulder, anvil, pile of molten lead, several gallons of water etc. shrink it, dress it up like a toy or piece of jewelry and then hand it to somebody and wait for the spell to wear off.

Wizard: Hi there, would you like this fine necklace?

Person: Sure, hey this gem looks like a little bonfire.

Wizard: Its a fire gem. A bargin at 20 gp.

Person: I'll take it.

Several hours later...

Person: Ahhh!! It burns!



Wizard: Hello dwarf, I hear you like ale.

Dwarf: Yes, I do.

Wizard: How about this. It's a super high concentrated ale you might like.

Dwarf: Sure, say it even come in a little barrel-shaped cup. *drinks it all*

several minutes later...

Dwarf: My liver!

[Thyatira3902]

What if you took that cloth like substance and attached it to an arrow and then shot it at someone, and then dispelled it before it hit? What kind of damage could you do with that with a wall of steel flying at 200 feet per second?

[Sucrose]

Many DMs would probably say no more than a regular arrow. Your interpretation is that speed is conserved, when other valid interpretations would be that kinetic energy or momentum is conserved. I'd be inclined to go with momentum, just because it's one of the fundamental assumptions of any physics experiment that I know of. If momentum is constant, then damage is unchanged.

Burn, catgirls, buurrrn!!!

For that sort of tactic, it's probably better to go with Explosive Runes on sheets of paper. You might make the dispel check for about half of them (unless you take Arcane Mastery from Complete Arcane, or are allowed to intentionally fail the check), and they get Reflex saves, but they have to save for each individually, and each failure is 6d6 damage.

[NerfTW]

A few problems with the suggestions:

Casting it on armor might bruise someone, and hurt like hell, but the leather straps would split before you crushed someone to death. Especially if it was happening quickly. (Armor is not held together by metal, unless it's chainmail and then you have to think about what the metal is, and if it's softer than bone.)

If it's water or beer, the target would be projectile vomiting, and have a massive stomach ache. Liquid would expand to fill the space it's in, which would include the target's throat, mouth, and into the air. Food, however, might rupture the stomach.

On the jewelry idea, it would have to be a hat of some sort. Otherwise, they'd just be flung violently out of the way, probably not enough to seriously injure them. A bonfire would also probably shove them clear, and any burns would only be on bare skin. Plus, how would you get past the heat coming off the shrunken object? It should feel like holding a match to thier chest/ear/whatever.

I'm not touching the flying wall of steel one. We'd have to slaughter hundreds of catgirls to decide how the momentum is transferred, and the sudden increase in air friction.

[kemmotar]

A better use of it would actually be shrinking arrows to medium size(from colossal i think) rapid shot and the second you release the arrow say the command word. Instant colossal size arrows...

[weenie]

What about casting it on the helm then? That should do some damage. And actually the possibility of destroying someone's armor just like that isn't a bad one at all. Would anyone allow it?

[Nermy]

What about casting it on the helm then? That should do some damage. And actually the possibility of destroying someone's armor just like that isn't a bad one at all. Would anyone allow it?

If someone tried that and I were DM I would give whoever was wearing the armor and attack of opportunity which if hits negates the spell without a concentration check from the caster.

If the attack misses I would make the caster make a touch attack.

If that hits, I would give the armor a will save to prevent shrinking.

If it fails the save, I would give the wearer a strength check to resist the armor shrinking.

If the wearer fails the check I would say they are in a wild magic zone and the initial caster turned into a frog.

[Kaelik]

If someone tried that and I were DM I would give whoever was wearing the armor and attack of opportunity which if hits negates the spell without a concentration check from the caster.

If the attack misses I would make the caster make a touch attack.

If that hits, I would give the armor a will save to prevent shrinking.

If it fails the save, I would give the wearer a strength check to resist the armor shrinking.

If the wearer fails the check I would say they are in a wild magic zone and the initial caster turned into a frog.

Or you could just say, "That doesn't work." But I can see how being a horrible DM is more worth your time.

[NerfTW]

What about casting it on the helm then? That should do some damage. And actually the possibility of destroying someone's armor just like that isn't a bad one at all. Would anyone allow it?

Depends on the helmet. How is it held on? Once again, you'd have to put enough pressure on the skull to crush it, plus the helmet would have to be in such a shape as to not simply slide upwards off the target's head. Which is entirely possible if the helmet was custom made with a metal strap under the chin. But then it would likely just crush your teeth and slide off anyways.

Now, throttling someone with thier necklace might work, since it takes far less pressure to crush a windpipe or cut off blood flow. But again, you run into the issue of the item breaking before it's finished shrinking.

But the tactic still works for destroying armor and for stunning the person momentarily. I'd give an attack of oppurtunity if that happened, since the wind would still be knocked out of them.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I recall a quote from somewhere, that I feel is applicable.

"The spell is designed to create a delicious muffin for you to eat. You cannot use it to create the muffin inside someone's brain."

Or something like that. I apologize to the quote's originator for mangling it and not crediting my source properly.

[Jayabalard]

I recall a quote from somewhere, that I feel is applicable.

"The spell is designed to create a delicious muffin for you to eat. You cannot use it to create the muffin inside someone's brain."

Or something like that. I apologize to the quote's originator for mangling it and not crediting my source properly.I agree

Even if you're going to let someone cause harm with it, I see no reason to allow them to deal more damage than any other 3rd level spell.

[Chronos]

Well, first of all, you have to touch the object, which means that to affect an opponent's armor or helmet, you'd need an attack roll, and you'd take an attack of opportunity for it (like with sundering). Then, it allows a save, if applicable, and attended objects always get a save (that of their wielder, if nothing else). And it wouldn't affect magical items, at all. So you've got three different ways the spell could fail (or four, if the target has spell resistance), compared to one for other save-or-suck battle-ending spells. Not too overpowered.

For using the shrunken items as weapons, a missile weapon (bow, crossbow, etc.) does damage according to the size of the launcher, not according to the ammunition. So if you shrink a Colossal-scale arrow down to Medium and launch it from your bow, you'll do 1d8 damage. Thrown weapons, however, do damage according to how big the weapon is when it hits, so darts will work just fine (though the damage from a colossal-scale dart still isn't overpowering for a third level spell).

[John Campbell]

If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it- the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size.
I'd apply similar thinking to any other size-changing magics.

[Emperor Tippy]

I go with the interpretation that an expanded item expands to fill all available space. And it's a good way to kill someone you really don't like. Take a basketball sized piece of metal except add lots of razor sharp points to it. Turn it to cloth. Feed it to a person. It will expand to fill all available space in their stomach and tear their insides to shreds.

Shrink Item is also good for holding people prisoner. Turn a Wall of Iron to cloth and wrap them in it, then expand the Wall of Iron. The prisoner can't move at all and is stuck until you give the command word to turn it back to cloth.

Another good use for it is to make a cape out of Iron turned to cloth and just wrap it about yourself if you are in trouble. Stone is good as well. You would be amazed how many times I have avoided capture with the rest of the party by appearing to be a boulder.

[Jayabalard]

I'd apply similar thinking to any other size-changing magics.most items don't have strength scores, do they?

[daggaz]

Nope, which is why they autofail their strength checks against you.

"Your opponent's armor begins to shrink against his body, but soon encounters an unbeatable resistance, and the magic is dispelled. He thanks you for "snugging" his fullplate, just before he bashes your skull in."

[kemmotar]

For using the shrunken items as weapons, a missile weapon (bow, crossbow, etc.) does damage according to the size of the launcher, not according to the ammunition. So if you shrink a Colossal-scale arrow down to Medium and launch it from your bow, you'll do 1d8 damage. Thrown weapons, however, do damage according to how big the weapon is when it hits, so darts will work just fine (though the damage from a colossal-scale dart still isn't overpowering for a third level spell).

So if you shot a normal arrow from a medium bow you get 1d8...however if you shoot an arrow that then turns into a colossal one(bigger than the ammunition of a ballista) it will still do 1d8?

I don't think there's a rule saying that and there being no rule saying that i'd say common sense applies...being impaled by something that challenges a ballista bolt for size does not do only 1d8 damage if you tossed it at him...

A colossal bow would launch a colossal arrow at the same speed that medium bow launches a medium arrow...the difference, as with an melee weapon, is the size of the pointy bit that hits you...a large greatsword does more damage than a medium greatsword because the pointy metal thing is bigger...now an arrow that is bigger than a horse launched at the same speed as any arrow would scarcely do 1d8 damage...

if you find a rule saying differently then that is accepted...however, i doubt that there is one...also if you look at monster manual 4 or 5 there is creature, the wild hunt. At night when the moon is out, any arrow launched from his bow turns into a large spear giving it (i think) 3d6 damage...thus it is intended by the makers of the book that the bigger the metal pointy thing, the more damage dice you roll...

[Dragonstar]

So if you shot a normal arrow from a medium bow you get 1d8...however if you shoot an arrow that then turns into a colossal one(bigger than the ammunition of a ballista) it will still do 1d8?

I don't think there's a rule saying that and there being no rule saying that i'd say common sense applies...being impaled by something that challenges a ballista bolt for size does not do only 1d8 damage if you tossed it at him...

A colossal bow would launch a colossal arrow at the same speed that medium bow launches a medium arrow...the difference, as with an melee weapon, is the size of the pointy bit that hits you...a large greatsword does more damage than a medium greatsword because the pointy metal thing is bigger...now an arrow that is bigger than a horse launched at the same speed as any arrow would scarcely do 1d8 damage...

if you find a rule saying differently then that is accepted...however, i doubt that there is one...also if you look at monster manual 4 or 5 there is creature, the wild hunt. At night when the moon is out, any arrow launched from his bow turns into a large spear giving it (i think) 3d6 damage...thus it is intended by the makers of the book that the bigger the metal pointy thing, the more damage dice you roll...

I have to agree - reference the Bag of Boulders (MIC 150) the tiny pebble turns into a boulder when thrown, increasing the damage dice.

The problem you run into is the fact that un-shrinking an item is a command word activation, which is a standard action. By the time you take your attack, the regular sized arrow has already hit. Unless you have a way to take a standard action within a standard action, it just doesn't work.

[Caduceus]

The problem with the expanding arrow idea is one that has already been mentioned. Momentum is conserved.

Allow me to explain momentum to those who haven't taken a physics class recently. The formula is Mass*Velocity. Therefore, if momentum is to remain the same while mass is greatly increased, the velocity would be greaty decreased.

Take for example a train going arbitrarily fast with no load. Drop, say, 1000 pounds of load onto it while it's moving at that speed, and suddenly it will slow down to conserve momentum.

Applying that to the idea of a Medium->Colossal size change of an arrow, the arrow would suddenly grow very large, gaining quite a bit of mass, and suddenly slow down quite a bit, if only from the sheer increase in wind resistance. Hell, that increase in wind resistance could even change the trajectory of the arrow so that it only grazes a target it would have hit in the heart, or even miss entirely.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Tippy: I'm not even going to bother. I think spells should do what the rules say they do, since magic (and hell, the rules in general) is rather arbitrary, and if we start trying to extrapolate things from common sense, we end up with...well, a third-level spell that instantly kills people with no applicable save.

EDIT: Okay, so I bothered. I still know I'm not going to convince you, personally.

Caduceus: Conversely, what makes you think magic is subject to Conservation of Momentum? Matter and energy aren't conserved in D&D spells, why should any other physical laws apply beyond the rules text?

[Cybren]

conservation of momentum should dictate that if you alter an objects mass its velocity would have to comparatively change. Why? Because the DM SAID SO

[Nerd-o-rama]

Oh, well that's different then.

[Dragonstar]

The problem with the expanding arrow idea is one that has already been mentioned. Momentum is conserved.

Allow me to explain momentum ...

Magic defies the laws of physics. Once again, see referenced item from the MIC, based on the spell in discussion. The only reason it doesn't work is because of the need for the 2nd standard action within the first.

[Chronos]

Compare Reduce Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reducePerson.htm):
Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).Similar text appears in the descriptions of Enlarge Person and Righteous Might, the only other spells in core which have an effect which in any way resembles what we're talking about here: Thrown weapons do damage based on how big they are when they hit, and missile weapons do damage based on the size of the thing that launched them. No, it doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense, and if you want to houserule otherwise, I can't blame you. But that's the way it works in the rules.

And magic absolutely does not ever defy the laws of physics. It follows them perfectly. The problem is just that the laws of physics which magic obeys bear very little resemblance to the laws of physics which govern our world.

[kemmotar]

Firstly, magic, as it was said, defies every single law of physics...why should it bother with momentum when it can use antigravity and other spells that make scientists pretty much useless in a D&D world...

Secondly, wasn't a command word a free action? Why waste a free action say one word? Anyway...SRD says it's a standard action so i won't bother debating the rules...This is easilly solved with a level 1 hireling. You instruct him that when you loose the arrows(through manyshot or rapid shot preferably so both the arrows are airborne at the same time) to speak the command word activating the spell...You can also have just 2 or a few more of the shrunk arrows painted in some color so the hireling recognises the situation and speaks the command word when it is needed...

Or you could use belkar's technique:smallbiggrin: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html

Shoot the arrow high enough so that it exceeds it's range and lands on the next turn while you activate the command word...

[Ganurath]

I have a new house rule, Catgirls' Law: If the trick would, when discussed, provoke God to kill catgirls, it will not be allowed due to divine intervention from the IC pantheon. This is my way of saying this should not work.

[Chronos]

Or you could just not bother with the command word: Shrunk items also return to normal if they forcefully strike a solid surface. Which is sort of the idea with weapons, anyway.

[Aquillion]

Wizard: Hi there, would you like this fine necklace?

Person: Sure, hey this gem looks like a little bonfire.

Wizard: Its a fire gem. A bargin at 20 gp.

Person: I'll take it.

Several hours later...

Person: Ahhh!! It burns!Yes, it burns! For all of 1d6 damage, plus possibly a few more d6 over the next few turns if you catch on fire and can't put it out (or can't be bothered to put it out, which is entirely a possibility.)

For the rest, there aren't any rules for being crushed by your armor or exploded by things getting bigger inside you, so it's the DM's call. Given how curiously unharmful falling, fire, and so forth are, they would be entirely within their rights to say that it deals 1d6 damage or something.

Additionally, it isn't clear that shrunken items can return to their full size while blocked by something. With Enlarge Person, say, you have to make a strength check to break anything. Shrink Object provides no such rules and no description of what happens in that case at all, so it's entirely DM's call. You can be reasonably sure that they're not going to call it in your favor if you keep trying to use the spell for instakills.

[olelia]

I would hope you are not trying to insta kill constantly with this tactic seeing how it is very impractical unless the item had a permanent shrink item cast on it. And I think the DM might catch on after you run up to the dragon and scream EAT ME!!!!

[Nerd-o-rama]

"I'm getting my gun back."

[Funkyodor]

Well, wouldn't reducing its Mass and Volume by 1/4,000th also reduce its corresponding DR and HP? I wouldn't be afraid if my helmet turned into foil and peeled off my head. It would be minorly annoying because my head then gets wet in the rain. But being constricted by very fine steel thinner and lighter than mithril? Also having someone swallow cloth changes its HP/DR too, and getting chewed and/or digested will also probably destroy it. Or at least enough where I can DM fiat "No, that was your wasted action. Next!"

[Talic]

Firstly, magic, as it was said, defies every single law of physics...why should it bother with momentum when it can use antigravity and other spells that make scientists pretty much useless in a D&D world...

Secondly, wasn't a command word a free action? Why waste a free action say one word? Anyway...SRD says it's a standard action so i won't bother debating the rules...This is easilly solved with a level 1 hireling. You instruct him that when you loose the arrows(through manyshot or rapid shot preferably so both the arrows are airborne at the same time) to speak the command word activating the spell...You can also have just 2 or a few more of the shrunk arrows painted in some color so the hireling recognises the situation and speaks the command word when it is needed...

Or you could use belkar's technique:smallbiggrin: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html

Shoot the arrow high enough so that it exceeds it's range and lands on the next turn while you activate the command word...

Simple. When you fire the bolt, you imbue it with a certain amount of energy. That is what momentum is. If the object were to gain mass, that does not mean it gains energy. Since the spell doesn't specifically state that it imparts any form of movement energy to an object (such as fly, levitation, or a variety of other spells), one would reasonably assume that it doesn't.

Thus, if you increase an object's mass by a factor of 4000, you'd decrease its movement by a like ratio.

In all likelihood, the bolt would nearly stop in its tracks and fall to the ground. While not useful in offensive applications, I can think of a defensive application for a similar spell.

Well, wouldn't reducing its Mass and Volume by 1/4,000th also reduce its corresponding DR and HP? I wouldn't be afraid if my helmet turned into foil and peeled off my head. It would be minorly annoying because my head then gets wet in the rain. But being constricted by very fine steel thinner and lighter than mithril? Also having someone swallow cloth changes its HP/DR too, and getting chewed and/or digested will also probably destroy it. Or at least enough where I can DM fiat "No, that was your wasted action. Next!"

DR no, Hardness no, HP yes, since HP is measured by thickness.

[Jack_Simth]

Talic:
Be careful with conservation of Inertia, too - if you're on an earth-like planet, where the equator is moving at a little over a thousand miles per hour, that one pound object becoming a 4,000 pound object reduces it's speed by a factor of 4,000 - so instead of moving at 1,000 mph (still relative to every one in the party and everything they're fighting) it's now moving at 1/4 MPH (basically 1,000 mph relative to everything else). Ouch, for the Great Wyrm dragon in the way.

If you're on an earth-like planet, where the planet is rotating about a star at about 65,000 miles per hour, that one-pound object, suddenly increased to 4,000 pounds, goes from 65,000 mph (still, relative to everyone in the party and whatever they're fighting) is now moving at about 16 miles per hour (about 65,000 mph relative to the party and whatever they're fighting). The Great Wyrm dragon in the way is unlikely to survive long enough to register the ouch.

If the sun in the game world is much like Earth's, where it is rotating around the galactic core at about 486,000 mph, that one-pound object suddenly increasing to 4,000 pounds is suddenly going about 121 miles per hour - which is roughly 486,000 miles per hour relative to the party and whatever they're fighting. What Great Wyrm dragon in the way? There's nothing left of consequence.

Huh... what's that curious meowish scream?

[Keld Denar]

I go with the interpretation that an expanded item expands to fill all available space. And it's a good way to kill someone you really don't like. Take a basketball sized piece of metal except add lots of razor sharp points to it. Turn it to cloth. Feed it to a person. It will expand to fill all available space in their stomach and tear their insides to shreds.

And as I stated...you do NOT have line of effect to the inside of a person's stomach. You can not activate the command word because you do NOT have line of effect. Unless you were inside of the creatures stomach at the time of the command speaking, your command word will have no effect. And if you were inside the creatures stomach, well, I think you now have a huge spikey ball to worry about.

[Caduceus]

I can think of one instance where it could possibly be lethal via physics working in its favor. Falling objects. Acceleration due to gravity is constant, 9.8 meters per second per second. And the increase in mass would increase the force with which the object strikes. Force is an equation of acceleration and mass.

Just drop the shrunken Wall of Iron and dispel the spell.

[NerfTW]

I can think of one instance where it could possibly be lethal via physics working in its favor. Falling objects. Acceleration due to gravity is constant, 9.8 meters per second per second. And the increase in mass would increase the force with which the object strikes. Force is an equation of acceleration and mass.

Just drop the shrunken Wall of Iron and dispel the spell.

The problem here is the feline-sapien genocidal question of whether momentum is conserved when the mass increases. Plus air resistance. Remember that the velocity eventually hits terminal velocity, which for a small object would be low.

That, and you need to be above the target.

But would momentum really matter when a wall of iron is on top of you? :smalleek:

[WorthingSon]

Many DMs would probably say no more than a regular arrow. Your interpretation is that speed is conserved, when other valid interpretations would be that kinetic energy or momentum is conserved. I'd be inclined to go with momentum, just because it's one of the fundamental assumptions of any physics experiment that I know of. If momentum is constant, then damage is unchanged.

The problem with the expanding arrow idea is one that has already been mentioned. Momentum is conserved.

Allow me to explain momentum to those who haven't taken a physics class recently. The formula is Mass*Velocity. Therefore, if momentum is to remain the same while mass is greatly increased, the velocity would be greaty decreased.

Take for example a train going arbitrarily fast with no load. Drop, say, 1000 pounds of load onto it while it's moving at that speed, and suddenly it will slow down to conserve momentum.

Applying that to the idea of a Medium->Colossal size change of an arrow, the arrow would suddenly grow very large, gaining quite a bit of mass, and suddenly slow down quite a bit, if only from the sheer increase in wind resistance. Hell, that increase in wind resistance could even change the trajectory of the arrow so that it only grazes a target it would have hit in the heart, or even miss entirely.


I am sure many a cat girl will die for this, but by the same logic if I set the same item on the table and then expand it, it should appear several feet under ground to preserve the potential energy.

As Potential Energy is found by mass * height, if you are preserving energies, then you must decrease the height if the mass increases. If you are measuring height as distance from gravitational center (i.e. the center of the world) then changing the mass would result in drastic changes in the height.

You cannot have a functional fantasy world and impose the laws of this world. Physics does NOT apply to magic... its MAGIC!

[Emperor Tippy]

And as I stated...you do NOT have line of effect to the inside of a person's stomach. You can not activate the command word because you do NOT have line of effect. Unless you were inside of the creatures stomach at the time of the command speaking, your command word will have no effect. And if you were inside the creatures stomach, well, I think you now have a huge spikey ball to worry about.

Where did I ever say you use a command word? You just shrink the thing down and drop it in a guys food. You should have waited until it had about a day left on the Shrink Item duration.

[kemmotar]

So if all the catgirl slaying physics are correct then how would you explain timestop or teleportation? You can't, the fantasy world isn't meant to be related it's physics counterpart...otherwise you can use antimatter and eschew materials to destroy the whole universe in one fell sweep...The reason no sane DM would allow any physics to enter into the game would be that if you do it once you have to do it again. Besides, if you're going to look at momentum then how can a 5foot step and one attack take up the same time as 9 attacks? There is nothing in the world of D&D to suggest that physics enters into it at all...there's no steam engine, there's no nukes, anitmatter has not been discovered...neither has uranium. Gravity and momentum are just guidelines in the world to be ignored by magic...Yes the world of D&D is magic...the laws of nature are mere guidelines to suggest what might happen if magic didn't disturb it...

Also, since there is no way of shrinking and suddenly enlarging any kind of matter with current science you can't say that an arrow suddenly enlarging in the middle of its course will reduce it's speed in relation to it's mass in order to conserve momentum for the simple reason that it's not possible without magic...I mean...think of the poor catgirls...their ever dwindling population depends on gamers realizing that breaking a game by using physics in a magic world just doesn't work because the ultimate entity said so(ie the DM)...if physics entered into magic then catgirls would exist and i'd be married to one...pity isn't it? Physics doesn't enter into magic..

[Fixer]

Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original casterEmphasis mine.

By my interpretation of this, when an object (like an arrow) has been shrunk and fired, when it strikes whatever it is going to hit, THEN it expands whether you said the command word or not. It won't do additional damage (since it hits first) but it will get bigger. Now, hitting someone with a boulder that then expands would be awkward, but not do any more damage.

In my interpretation, if you say a command word after you fire an arrow, it is too late. You are no longer in possession of the object and, as such, cannot command it. It doesn't say in the DMG whether the command word must be stated by the bearer or not, but to eliminate player abuse I generally require that the command word be spoken by the bearer or controller of an object for it to work. It does specifically state:

A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation.
This would seem to indicate that the person speaking the command word must hold or otherwise have physical contact with the object in order to use the command word to activate it.

[Jayabalard]

As Potential Energy is found by mass * height, if you are preserving energies, then you must decrease the height if the mass increases.Conservation of momentum was a physically law long before conservation of mass/energy, so applying one in a game world and not the other is fine.

In any case, it's not necessary to decrease the height; that's only one of the options,. You could, instead add more energy to the system from an outside force (ie: magic). Since you're adding mass to the object, the change in potential energy is largely irrelevant by comparison.


You cannot have a functional fantasy world and impose the laws of this world. Physics does NOT apply to magic... its MAGIC!yes, you can; you just can't necessarily apply all of them, and generally you need to add the clause "except when magic explicitly overrides this".


So if all the catgirl slaying physics are correct then how would you explain timestop or teleportation? There are some recent examples of teleportation in particle physics as I recall.

[olelia]

Emphasis mine.
In my interpretation, if you say a command word after you fire an arrow, it is too late. You are no longer in possession of the object and, as such, cannot command it. It doesn't say in the DMG whether the command word must be stated by the bearer or not, but to eliminate player abuse I generally require that the command word be spoken by the bearer or controller of an object for it to work. It does specifically state:

This would seem to indicate that the person speaking the command word must hold or otherwise have physical contact with the object in order to use the command word to activate it.

Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster

Emphasis added...I'm not quite sure where you just whipped out the orginal owner seeing as the spell clearly states that the ONLY time a command word would work was if it was said by the original caster, not the owner.

[Rigon]

i can't simply agree with this. your examples are power gaming implementations.
"From the view of the Fairness"
level 3 spell. with this you could kill anyone who is wearing a solid helmet which is not magical. unfair. thus disabled.

"From the view of the Rules"
the spell does not define the situation where the shrinking process is blocked by another object. undefined. BUT the spell description says: "Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface". we can just say that this also means that "if the shrinking/"size regaining" process is blocked by a solid object then the effect is instantly canceled". so we could use this spell to fit armor to smaller size category creature or to take a big stone pillar, shrink it, then take it into the mine and make it fit into the place of a broken pillar so the tunnel won't crumble. this is a utility spell. it should be used like one. its original purpose was obvious.
if you wanted to crush someone's head with his own helm then you only got his helm stuck on his head. this might affect his sight and hearing and might also cause serious itches after a few days but it won't make a mess.
if you want to make a mans head explode with a tissue sized iron wall then you simply got his mouth filled. depending on the position of the jaw and the tongue this might simply mean that the tissue is swollen a bit or that his mouth is completely blocked. in the second case he might get breathing problems and he might die after a day or two because of thirst (you need to drink you know).
as for the ballistic arrow it has many fail chances. the arrow's feather might hit the shaft (i think this happens often but i know nothing of archery) so the arrow gains its original size, the arrow gets hooked with its feather and flies in a diagonal curve either left or right. aiming is impossible and you might even break the shaft. not to mention the strain on your own arm holding the bow.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Conservation of momentum was a physically law long before conservation of mass/energy, so applying one in a game world and not the other is fine.
I'm...pretty sure they've all been in effect equally since at least several nanoseconds after the creation of the Universe. Taking into account that matter and energy are conserved in aggregate, rather than individually, of course.

There are some recent examples of teleportation in particle physics as I recall.
Okay, perhaps teleportation spells use quantum physics to work, or perhaps they're magic and just work because they look neat. Given the nature of fiction, I know which one is more likely to be relevant to our discussion.

[Heliomance]

Reading some of the "science" in this thread makes me want to rip my eyeballs out.
1) Momentum is NOT the same as energy. Momentum is mass times velocity. Kinetic energy is one half times mass times the square of the velocity.

2) Gravitational potential energy is NOT mass times height. It is mass times the local gravitational field strength times height, or the universal gravitational constant times the mass of the planet times the mass of the object divided by the square of the distance from the centre of the planet.

3) Teleportation does not break the laws of physics. It has been achieved, albeit only on the quantum scale.

4) All laws of physics work the same in D&D as in the real world, except when magic specifically and explicitly overrides them.

[Jayabalard]

I'm...pretty sure they've all been in effect equally since at least several nanoseconds after the creation of the Universe. Taking into account that matter and energy are conserved in aggregate, rather than individually, of course.The actual laws of physics are constructs of humans to explain the world around us. They've only existed since they were created by the people who came up with them.

sure... phenomena have obeyed those laws for longer than they've existed (well probably, we don't really have much in the way of evidence to support that).... but that has nothing to do with the laws themselves.

whether a specific case of newton's laws of motion are held true in a game world has nothing to do with whether the more general law of conservation of mass/energy holds true. Neither, Either, both of them could be true (though, conservation of mass is pretty explicitly contradicted by RAW)

[Chronos]

2) Gravitational potential energy is NOT mass times height. It is ... the universal gravitational constant times the mass of the planet times the mass of the object divided by the square of the distance from the centre of the planet.A catgirl just made her saving throw, there. Gravitational potential energy scales with the inverse distance, not inverse square distance. Otherwise, good work there with the nekocide.

And while energy and momentum are, as you said, not the same thing (I was about to post that myself), they are governed by the same conservation law (conservation of four-momentum, a consequence of the translational symmetry of spacetime). So you can't just say that the law of conservation of momentum applies, but not the law of conservation of energy, because they're the same law.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The actual laws of physics are constructs of humans to explain the world around us. They've only existed since they were created by the people who came up with them.

sure... phenomena have obeyed those laws for longer than they've existed (well probably, we don't really have much in the way of evidence to support that).... but that has nothing to do with the laws themselves.

whether a specific case of newton's laws of motion are held true in a game world has nothing to do with whether the more general law of conservation of mass/energy holds true. Neither, Either, both of them could be true (though, conservation of mass is pretty explicitly contradicted by RAW)
Well, my original point that I kind of wandered off was: there's no reason to expect magic to obey Newtonian physics, nor any more modern developments. D&D Magic has its own rules (which are broken and amended rather frequently), which are almost entirely divorced from anything like how real-world physics work. If the game rules say a magic spell should work in a certain way, but physics say it can't possibly, go with the game rules every time.

[Rigon]

let us not talk about physics in dnd but about the spell. anyone else voting for shrink/grow until blocked by anything solid (full explanation in my post above).

What would happen if i would say "there is no scientific connection between scientific explanations and god killing neko-girls", huh? i think this is a paradox.

[Heliomance]

A catgirl just made her saving throw, there. Gravitational potential energy scales with the inverse distance, not inverse square distance. Otherwise, good work there with the nekocide.


Ah, yes. My bad. It's force that scales with the inverse square.

[Jayabalard]

Well, my original point that I kind of wandered off was: there's no reason to expect magic to obey Newtonian physics, nor any more modern developments.nor is there any reason to expect magic to not obey them, except as explicitly stated.

Nor is there any reason to expect Real Life law of physics B holds true just because Real Life law of physics A holds true in the game world.

[Chronos]

anyone else voting for shrink/grow until blocked by anything solid (full explanation in my post above).That fixes some of the broken uses of Shrink Item, but it breaks the intended use. Suppose, for instance, I want to carry around a grand piano (or some other big, heavy thing) with me. I shrink it down, and it stays shrunken for a few days before going back to normal (unless I unshrink it first).

But what if I want to carry that piano with me for a month before using it? Well, then, I just wrap my shrunken piano in tissue paper. When the duration is up, it tries to expand, but is blocked by the tissue paper, so it can't. When I'm ready to use it, I unwrap it, and it can now finish expanding.

[Nerd-o-rama]

nor is there any reason to expect magic to not obey them, except as explicitly stated.
And it's stated that thrown weapons under a similar effect to Shrink Item expand and deal more damage, even though this violates conservation of momentum.

Shrink Item doesn't specifically address this, but since similar magic does, I fall on the side of interpreting it this way. And unlike the ideas in the OP, it's not horrendously broken from a balance standpoint.

[Rigon]

But what if I want to carry that piano with me for a month before using it? Well, then, I just wrap my shrunken piano in tissue paper. When the duration is up, it tries to expand, but is blocked by the tissue paper, so it can't. When I'm ready to use it, I unwrap it, and it can now finish expanding.

sounds bad, i agree... maybe we can say that the shrunken piano is a minor magic item and when effect duration is over the item pops back to it's normal size (causing damage to object around and getting damaged by the objects around) except in the case where we have a creature/object with a will save in the affected area. if this would cause damaging "pressure" to the creature then it is delayed (by an auto-success continuous will save) but it returns to the original size if it would simply push the creature/object away.

so if you have a really big big item and shrink it down to your size (a giant's seal ring maybe) and wear it proudly. the spell duration ends but the ring remains your size as it would damage your hand (especially the fingers) when you remove it however ... it will return to it's original size... *pop* and big size it is... you might as well drop it and then it'll hit your leg and cause you pain (it would be a punishment for elongating a spells duration with an exploit). BUT if you would put the piano in a tissue and carry it in the pocket of your robe... spell duration expires... *pop* the piano regains size. it pushes you to the side (this can cause some serious damage here) tears the tissue and your robe. and then we a have a problem of everyone trying to sabotage the equipment of others by sneaking micro-pianos into their pockets.
but this way we can still cause damage to others by shrinking items (like a giant metal ball) and throw it in the middle of a group of monsters. the ball hits the ground *pops big* (it hits but doesn't "pressure" objects with a will save) but the pop would still cause damage (bludgeon obviously), it might push some monsters of a cliff and it would most likely start to roll into one direction. now we can play pinball just below the castle walls.

let us just simply hate the person who came up with this spell

[Collin152]

Okay, his name was Daniel, he lived 689 years ago.
Curse you, Daniel the aged!