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Aquillion
2007-11-27, 01:35 AM
Here's a curious question: How much would it cost to fill a portable hole entirely with acid? Acid has a listed price; the problem is that that price is 10 gp for a 1-pound flask (and it isn't clear if that weight / cost even includes the flask, although it's usually assumed).

Portable holes, meanwhile, have their capacity listed exclusively in space or volume (6 feet in diameter, 10 feet deep.) I've heard its liquid capacity calculated as 8006 litres, but that doesn't help us, since acid is priced by the pound, not the litre, and we don't know what sort of acid it is, leaving us with no way to calculate how much it weighs per litre.

Anyone have any ideas?

Skyserpent
2007-11-27, 01:37 AM
One could look at the damage one of those suckers deals and calculate a cost based on that...

tyckspoon
2007-11-27, 01:46 AM
An oil flask is listed as being 1 pint. That's the only one where a volume is specified that I can find. Assuming all the other items stored in flasks use the same size (and that they are not the same flasks as the 'empty flask', since that weighs 1.5 pounds empty..) then you need 16,920 (fractional amount rounded up) flasks of acid [thank you, Google Calculator!]. Also assuming the liquid volume calculation for the portable hole was done correctly.

triforcel
2007-11-27, 01:50 AM
The simplest thing would probably be to give the acid the same density as water. I can't imagine it's that different. At seventy degrees Fahrenheit, you get about 8 and a third pounds of water in every gallon. And one gallon is about 3.78 liters. So a portable hole should contain around 1761 gallons which is about 14,669 pounds of water. So if the acid has about the same density as water and I didn't screw up somewhere, it'll cost almost 150,000 g to fill the portable hole. Probably not worth it.

JaxGaret
2007-11-27, 01:51 AM
Sulfuric Acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfuric_acid) has a density 1.84 times that of water.

I'm a little too tired to do the rest of the conversions, but that's a start for ya.

Maybe triforcel can incorporate that.

MCerberus
2007-11-27, 01:56 AM
If you don't mind, I'd like to ask a curious question relating to your curious question:

For what purpose are you filling the portable hole? Execution pit? Flooding some jerk's treasure room?

triforcel
2007-11-27, 01:58 AM
Guess I was wrong about the density. Anyways, the lazy way of taking that into consideration is to just multiply 150000 by 1.84 which gives us a total of 276000. So with this new, higher number. You'd have to be level seventeen to afford this (using the table from the DMG). Though you could probably get a discount for buying wholesale.

Anyways, I'm tired. Feel free to nitpick my calculations if you want to. I'm going to bed.

JaxGaret
2007-11-27, 02:04 AM
I'm sure a Wish or Miracle, which cost less than 30k each, could accomplish this easily.

There may even be a lower level spell that works that you could pay a mage for.

Emperor Tippy
2007-11-27, 02:08 AM
Guess I was wrong about the density. Anyways, the lazy way of taking that into consideration is to just multiply 150000 by 1.84 which gives us a total of 276000. So with this new, higher number. You'd have to be level seventeen to afford this (using the table from the DMG). Though you could probably get a discount for buying wholesale.

Anyways, I'm tired. Feel free to nitpick my calculations if you want to. I'm going to bed.

Actually you divide by 1.84. Not multiply.

deadseashoals
2007-11-27, 02:19 AM
Actually you divide by 1.84. Not multiply.

No, you multiply the cost by 1.84, since it takes you 1.84 times as much acid in weight to fill the hole by volume. You would divide if you were attempting to fill, say, a bag of holding by weight.

tyckspoon
2007-11-27, 02:31 AM
hmm.. if you want to do the entire thing magically (I am admitting right here that I'm not certain if this works. You'll know the questionable step when you see it.)

1. Get somebody to cast Create Water for you. It's best if you can get this free; look for a Cleric or a Druid who has some free time and will do it for the lulz. Even if you can't, thats ok; by book rate, you'll only pay 5300 gold for this service. You need just a little bit less than 2115 gallons of liquid. A level 20 caster can provide 40 gallons per cast, so you need 53 castings (you'll have some overflow.) At 6 castings a day, your Portable Pool can be completely filled in 9 days. It might be quicker and certainly cheaper to find a lake, weight yourself down to the bottom, and open the Hole until it's filled.

2. Open up a flask of acid (10 gp) and pour it in. Mix it around with a ten-foot pole. You now have a Portable Pool of extremely weak acid.

3. Get a Wizard to Polymorph Any Object (1200 gp) your pool of weak acid into a pool of strong acid. The transformation should be permanent.

End result: A pool full of acid. Net cost: 1730 gp if you had the water magically created, 1210 if not. At a pint a flask, it's got around 17,000 doses of acid in it. If you can find a way to repackage it into individual flasks, you can even sell off the stuff at a fair profit once you're done with your Swimming Pool Deathtrap.

chionophile
2007-11-27, 02:41 AM
2. Open up a flask of acid (10 gp) and pour it in. Mix it around with a ten-foot pole. You now have a Portable Pool of extremely weak acid.

3. Get a Wizard to Polymorph Any Object (1200 gp) your pool of weak acid into a pool of strong acid. The transformation should be permanent.


This isn't really relevant, but I'm a chemistry nerd so I feel the need to correct this - the strength of the acid is not determined by its concentration, it's determined by the properties of the acid. You're just changing concentration here; your original solution is probably just a very dilute strong acid.

I'll leave whether PAO can do this up to people who actually play DnD.

JaxGaret
2007-11-27, 02:45 AM
Are you making a portable home for your Acidborn Shark pet?

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6162/acidbornsharkch7.jpg

*crosses fingers and hopes the answer is yes*

Aquillion
2007-11-27, 05:05 AM
This isn't really relevant, but I'm a chemistry nerd so I feel the need to correct this - the strength of the acid is not determined by its concentration, it's determined by the properties of the acid. You're just changing concentration here; your original solution is probably just a very dilute strong acid.

I'll leave whether PAO can do this up to people who actually play DnD.Not only can PAO do that, it could simply skip the whole holistic acid stage and PAO the water to acid directly. You need +9 or more in bonuses to make a PAO permanent, and we have:

Same kingdom (Liquid? Debatable if 'liquid' is a kingdom, since it lists 'animal, vegetable, mineral, but plainly acid belongs to some kingdom, and putting it and water in the same kingdom is probably a safe bet. If you want to argue that acid is of the mineral or vegetable kingdom, just fill the hole with gravel or turnips instead and proceed from there.) This is +5.
Same size, +2.
Same or lower intelligence, +2

PAO is absurdly lenient; as long as you're staying within the same basic animal-mineral-vegetable kingdom, not changing sizes, and not raising intelligence, you can do whatever you want and it will last forever.


For what purpose are you filling the portable hole? Execution pit? Flooding some jerk's treasure room?I was just curious. An acid pit only deals 10d6 points of damage a round, plus a DC 13 fort save to avoid 1 point of con damage for anyone (including you) who gets close enough to inhale the fumes (second save for 1d4 con damage a minute later.) This all sounds fun enough until you realize that you could just trick an enemy into the empty hole, pick it up, and let them suffocate anyway.

But, come on, we're adventurers. I'm sure we can come up with fun and entertaining things to do with a mobile pit containing well over a thousand gallons of acid.


(and that they are not the same flasks as the 'empty flask', since that weighs 1.5 pounds empty..)Sooo... in other words, if it is the same flask, generic D&D acid has a weight of negative half a pound for a flaskful of the stuff? Maybe we should consider putting the pit on the ceiling... We could cast reverse gravity, but then the acid would fall down just as the monster falls up, and we'd only splash them for one round as the two pass each other...

raygungothic
2007-11-27, 05:44 AM
The Polymorph Any Object approach is ingenious, and does appear to work.

However, as someone who DMs much more than plays, I can confidently state that this will set your DM's alarm bells ringing long before you finish. It sounds like it could be used for amazing amounts of mischief.

On the other hand, if your motives are innocent and you just want to be able to save the lives of poor, innocent Acidborn Sharks by carrying them to the animal sanctuary rather than killing them, carry on :-)

Kompera
2007-11-27, 06:12 AM
1. Get somebody to cast Create Water for you. It's best if you can get this free; look for a Cleric or a Druid who has some free time and will do it for the lulz.You mean, it's possible to find a devout worshiper of a deity willing to expend the holy power granted by their patron, for "lulz"? I could see an Arcane caster doing this, but for Divine casters it tends to cheapen the whole "powers and abilities granted by my deity (or at least by some ideal which I revere and pray about for at least an hour each day)" thing to just be tossing around spells for the laugh factor.

My question would be: Does acid damage a Portable Hole?

Damaging Magic Items

A magic item doesnít need to make a saving throw unless it is unattended, it is specifically targeted by the effect, or its wielder rolls a natural 1 on his save. Magic items should always get a saving throw against spells that might deal damage to themó even against attacks from which a nonmagical item would normally get no chance to save. Magic items use the same saving throw bonus for all saves, no matter what the type (Fortitude, Reflex, or Will). A magic itemís saving throw bonus equals 2 + one-half its caster level (round down). The only exceptions to this are intelligent magic items, which make Will saves based on their own Wisdom scores.

Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort. A damaged magic item continues to function, but if it is destroyed, all its magical power is lost.

Quietus
2007-11-27, 06:36 AM
You mean, it's possible to find a devout worshiper of a deity willing to expend the holy power granted by their patron, for "lulz"? I could see an Arcane caster doing this, but for Divine casters it tends to cheapen the whole "powers and abilities granted by my deity (or at least by some ideal which I revere and pray about for at least an hour each day)" thing to just be tossing around spells for the laugh factor.

My question would be: Does acid damage a Portable Hole?

Good point about the damage to the hole... however, it's worth noting that I could definitely see Olidammarra (I'm sure I'm close, but just a hair off on that spelling) getting a hand into this mischief for the laugh factor.

F.L.
2007-11-27, 06:45 AM
Or, just use a decanter of endless water to fill it if you're in a hurry.

puppyavenger
2007-11-27, 07:01 AM
Wait if you can PAO water, than can you permanently PAO all the worlds air into acidic gas?

Indon
2007-11-27, 08:56 AM
Wait if you can PAO water, than can you permanently PAO all the worlds air into acidic gas?

I'm sure there's a size limitation. You could only acidify air one 10x10 room at a time, or something.

Aquillion
2007-11-27, 12:18 PM
I'm sure there's a size limitation. You could only acidify air one 10x10 room at a time, or something.
Although, per RAW, you could PAO the 10x10 block of air around an enemy to stone, and it would last for three hours (same size +2, same or lower intelligence +2).

tyckspoon
2007-11-27, 12:31 PM
Sooo... in other words, if it is the same flask, generic D&D acid has a weight of negative half a pound for a flaskful of the stuff? Maybe we should consider putting the pit on the ceiling... We could cast reverse gravity, but then the acid would fall down just as the monster falls up, and we'd only splash them for one round as the two pass each other...

Yeah. Along with alchemist's fire, oil, holy and unholy water, and almost anything else that comes in filled flasks. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the empty flask was intended to weigh 1/2 pound, not 1 & 1/2.



You mean, it's possible to find a devout worshiper of a deity willing to expend the holy power granted by their patron, for "lulz"? I could see an Arcane caster doing this, but for Divine casters it tends to cheapen the whole "powers and abilities granted by my deity (or at least by some ideal which I revere and pray about for at least an hour each day)" thing to just be tossing around spells for the laugh factor.

Sure. You're only asking for the character's daily allotment of 0-level spells. That's a trivial investment for a high-level character (I would say the harder challenge would be locating a Cleric or Druid 20 who doesn't have something better to do with his time.) and a small fraction of the divine power the character is blessed with: 6 0-level is only 3 spell levels total. He's giving you the same daily amount of divine energy as if he had cast Create Food and Water. If the caster won't do it out of curiosity, you could lie to him, sell it as water to be transported to a drought-stricken area or something. Or just pay for it. It's not that expensive.

Collin152
2007-11-27, 05:53 PM
Although, per RAW, you could PAO the 10x10 block of air around an enemy to stone, and it would last for three hours (same size +2, same or lower intelligence +2).

Yeah, that's why I usually don't permit PAO-ing the air. Its just another slab of cheese with too much whine. I mean wine.

Aquillion
2007-11-27, 09:53 PM
Sure. You're only asking for the character's daily allotment of 0-level spells. That's a trivial investment for a high-level character (I would say the harder challenge would be locating a Cleric or Druid 20 who doesn't have something better to do with his time.) and a small fraction of the divine power the character is blessed with: 6 0-level is only 3 spell levels total. He's giving you the same daily amount of divine energy as if he had cast Create Food and Water. If the caster won't do it out of curiosity, you could lie to him, sell it as water to be transported to a drought-stricken area or something. Or just pay for it. It's not that expensive.Or you could just, you know, find a lake. You have a portable hole, so it's not like transporting the water is an issue.

...well, if we're going to be like that, we're adventurers, so we could probably just find a lake of acid and render the whole point moot. Although... how would you get the lake of acid into the hole? I really don't think you can just dip it in...

ColdBrew
2007-11-28, 11:30 AM
I'm sure there's a size limitation. You could only acidify air one 10x10 room at a time, or something.
Once again, psionics has the answer. They conveniently forgot to put a size limitation on the Metamorphosis (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersGtoP.html#metamorphosis) power, which allows inanimate objects. You can have your 7th level Egoist transform into an appropriately sized pool of acid when needed, filling the hole on demand.

He's probably got nothing better to do.

Blasterfire
2007-11-28, 08:43 PM
Once again, psionics has the answer. They conveniently forgot to put a size limitation on the Metamorphosis (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersGtoP.html#metamorphosis) power, which allows inanimate objects. You can have your 7th level Egoist transform into an appropriately sized pool of acid when needed, filling the hole on demand.

He's probably got nothing better to do.

Metamorphosis doesn't have a size limitation, but it does require you turn into a creature. I think a pool of acid has a hard time being a creature.

Mewtarthio
2007-11-28, 08:51 PM
Metamorphosis doesn't have a size limitation, but it does require you turn into a creature. I think a pool of acid has a hard time being a creature.


You can also use this power to assume the form of an inanimate object. You gain the objectís hardness and retain your own hit points. You can take the shape of almost any simple object you can think of. If you attempt to take the form of a complex object, you must make an appropriate skill check.. If you fail the check, your manifestation of the power does not succeed. Likewise, you cannot take the form of a complex mechanical mechanism unless you have some sort of skill associated with the object. You cannot use this power to assume the form of a psionic item or a magic item, or any object with a hardness of 15 or higher. You also cannot take the form of a psionically animated mechanism or any object formed of ectoplasm.

As an inanimate object, you lose all mobility. You retain your normal senses and your ability to speak. You can manifest a power if you make a Concentration check (DC 20 + power level); however, doing so ends the duration of this power. If you take damage while in the form of an object, your actual body also takes damage (but the objectís hardness, if any, protects you).

I suppose this means that, sure, it's legal to turn yourself into acid. The downside is that you need to make an appropriate Craft (Alchemy) check to make all the acid, and that means you need arcane casting.

UserClone
2007-11-28, 09:08 PM
Why? Craft is a class skill for (almost?) every class, last I checked.

Mewtarthio
2007-11-28, 09:12 PM
Why? Craft is a class skill for (almost?) every class, last I checked.

Yes, but only arcane spellcasters can use the Craft (Alchemy) skill. Others can take ranks in it, but they are arbitrarily barred from actually making anything with it.

Epic_Wizard
2007-11-28, 09:34 PM
Or you could just, you know, find a lake. You have a portable hole, so it's not like transporting the water is an issue.

...well, if we're going to be like that, we're adventurers, so we could probably just find a lake of acid and render the whole point moot. Although... how would you get the lake of acid into the hole? I really don't think you can just dip it in...

Actually according to a strict interpretation of the SRD Polymorph Any Object can permanently turn a puddle of acid, say one at the bottom of a Portable Hole, into a significantly larger pool of acid assuming that it doesn't fall under the heading of a "material of great intrinsic value".

The thing is when you are this level why would you bother with this sort of thing? It's not going to be a major obstacle to anything you would be fighting at this level and it would probably be far more effective to add an enchantment to the portable whole to cast something like Lightning Bolt or Cone of Cold on anyone who steps in front of it or opens it without a password.

Besides I still like my idea of a portal into the oceans of Celestia, which are full of holy water, as a weapon. This would be even more effective at epic levels since you could make the spell exclude creatures and be as large as you wish.

Anyways...

We should really petition WotC to give volume and mass measurements for items and materials to avoid the guy with massive strength bonuses carrying a galleon on his back or a ten pound bag of feathers being able to fit into a bag of holding.