The Lich King vs Sauron

[warty goblin]

Some points regarding armor and the undead*:

1) Skeletons in plate armor: There are two vital componants of medival type armor, the metal shell, which keeps the nasty pointy things from making your wonderful internal organs from escaping, and the padding under the armor so that nasty heavy things don't pulverize your bones. Skeletons, by dint of being skeletonized, have been exposed for quite some time, long enough for metal to start to rust and cloth padding to start to disintegrate from the moisture and rot. They will by no means be wearing anything like effective plate armor by the time they reach battle, it'll be falling apart, the leather straps decaying, the padding gone to rot and swelled with water, and the armor itself rusty and weak. It'll be better than nothing, but not by a lot.
Also, pieces like greaves and vambraces will fall off, since the flesh they are pulled tight against is gone, meaning the skeleton is now only wearing a cuiress, pouldrons and helmet. In other words, topheavy and easy to knock down, and difficult to stand back up, if skeletons even have the intelligence for that.

2) Zombies in Plate Armor: Zombies tend to be somewhat fresher than skeletons, so their armor will be in better shape. On the other hand their movements will be impaired, since its a safe bet that the under-armor padding got wet and swelled, presuring the limbs straight out and making attacking difficult. Zombies are also not known as speed demons, and strapping lots of ironmongery to them probably doesn't speed them up (unless you paint it red, but I digress).

3) Ghouls in plate armor: Might make more sense, since they could possibly be trained to perform at least minimal maintenence on their armor, although given that they don't have fingers as such this could be awkward...

*I'm assuming that undead don't get some sort of Undeath, Welcome to the Rest of Your Cursed Eternity seminar, complete with orientation covering such topics as

+ How to Look on the Bright Side. Keeping up that sense of optimism dispite being enslaved to the will of a tyrranical evil being with, most horrifying of all, emo taste in clothes. Yes, you do have to spend all of your cursed unlife staring at Hot Topic clothes and listening to how nobody can understand how the necromancer feels empty inside... but don't let it get you down.

+ Dating and Undeath, or how not to tell somebody that you love them forever, because you really do have forever of their inlaws coming to visit on Saturdays.

+ Sex and Undeath, or its way to late for safe sex now,or sex at all for that matter. That's right, no num-num for eternity, like high school, just longer, though not by much.

+ Marriage and Undeath, till death do us part...

+ How to survive in a life-biased world, emphasis on tips to help the newly risen to avoid being killed by a paladin grinding level 12, also perfecting "the shuffle", and team activities on horde forming and moaning "brains..", being fooled by primative defenses and battering through doors with arms and feet.

+ Proper equipment care, because you can take it with you, and you'd better make it last.

+ And many more things to aid the newly re-living in ajusting to their new world of pain and enslavement!

[EvilElitest]

Some points regarding armor and the undead*:

1) Skeletons in plate armor: There are two vital componants of medival type armor, the metal shell, which keeps the nasty pointy things from making your wonderful internal organs from escaping, and the padding under the armor so that nasty heavy things don't pulverize your bones. Skeletons, by dint of being skeletonized, have been exposed for quite some time, long enough for metal to start to rust and cloth padding to start to disintegrate from the moisture and rot. They will by no means be wearing anything like effective plate armor by the time they reach battle, it'll be falling apart, the leather straps decaying, the padding gone to rot and swelled with water, and the armor itself rusty and weak. It'll be better than nothing, but not by a lot.
Also, pieces like greaves and vambraces will fall off, since the flesh they are pulled tight against is gone, meaning the skeleton is now only wearing a cuiress, pouldrons and helmet. In other words, topheavy and easy to knock down, and difficult to stand back up, if skeletons even have the intelligence for that.

So, unless the skelton is fresh, or wearing magical plate armor, they are going to fall apart



2) Zombies in Plate Armor: Zombies tend to be somewhat fresher than skeletons, so their armor will be in better shape. On the other hand their movements will be impaired, since its a safe bet that the under-armor padding got wet and swelled, presuring the limbs straight out and making attacking difficult. Zombies are also not known as speed demons, and strapping lots of ironmongery to them probably doesn't speed them up (unless you paint it red, but I digress).
Bear in mind, the zombies will only be wearing the armor that they wore in life. If it didn't help them when they were alive, it wouldn't help them much when
the are dead with rusy armor

3) Ghouls in plate armor: Might make more sense, since they could possibly be trained to perform at least minimal maintenence on their armor, although given that they don't have fingers as such this could be awkward...

Ghouls can be intellegent, but it requies them to have free will, a problem could arise from there


*I'm assuming that undead don't get some sort of Undeath, Welcome to the Rest of Your Cursed Eternity seminar, complete with orientation covering such topics as
Oh, i heped make the paphflets for that


+ How to Look on the Bright Side. Keeping up that sense of optimism dispite being enslaved to the will of a tyrranical evil being with, most horrifying of all, emo taste in clothes. Yes, you do have to spend all of your cursed unlife staring at Hot Topic clothes and listening to how nobody can understand how the necromancer feels empty inside... but don't let it get you down.

Goth music is so pouplar down there


+ Dating and Undeath, or how not to tell somebody that you love them forever, because you really do have forever of their inlaws coming to visit on Saturdays.

Sadly, you need free will to date


+ Sex and Undeath, or its way to late for safe sex now,or sex at all for that matter. That's right, no num-num for eternity, like high school, just longer, though not by much.

Is that possible? No wait, don't tell me


+ Marriage and Undeath, till death do us part...
So many loopholes have been found in that system


+ How to survive in a life-biased world, emphasis on tips to help the newly risen to avoid being killed by a paladin grinding level 12, also perfecting "the shuffle", and team activities on horde forming and moaning "brains..", being fooled by primative defenses and battering through doors with arms and feet.

Have you been playing wow


+ Proper equipment care, because you can take it with you, and you'd better make it last.
does ruin the creepy look though


+ And many more things to aid the newly re-living in ajusting to their new world of pain and enslavement!
Horray!?
from,
EE

[I_am_an_undead]

Why the heck do you all have to go so fast? I can't keep up!
:smallsigh: I'll post something when I'll have the time, whenever that is.

[EvilElitest]

Why the heck do you all have to go so fast? I can't keep up!
:smallsigh: I'll post something when I'll have the time, whenever that is.

Sauron trained me as a ninja
from,
EE

[warty goblin]

Sauron trained me as a ninja
from,
EE

We both took the Vs. Thread Devoted Ninja prestiege class, which offers the following benifits
1d8 HD per level
6 skill points
Class Abilities:

- Chosen Combatent: When a poster enters the VTDN class, they must choose a Combatent. During any vs. thread in which the Chosen Combatent is included, the VTDN must support the Chosen Combatent or lose all class abilities for a week.

- Insane Reseach. At first level the VTDN gains the ability to mystically remember the location of any piece of information on their Chosen Combatant, no matter how obscure or how long ago they read it. The VTDN gains a +5 knowledge(Chosen Combatent) skill bonus.

- Snarky Comeback. The VTDN has realized that sometimes the best defense and offense is humor. The VTDN may now take two full round actions to construct a Humerous Post. This acts like a normal post, but can get the poster awarded cookies and/or internets. Gained at second level.

- Flame resistant. The VTDN has been through the worst the internet can throw at them, and now only take half damage from all flaming attacks, this ability is gained at third level.

- Exception List: For all of their devotion to the Chosen Combatent, every VTDN must at some point realize that some fights cannot be won. At fourth level the VTDN may create a list of entities to which they can concede the fight without penalty. This list can be added to and expanded. However if the list ever includes Eragon, the VTDN's head immediately explodes.

- Rapid posting, at fifth level the VTDN gains the ability to post very very rapidly on threads about their Choses Combatent. Posting is now a standard action instead of a full round action, and does not draw attacks of opportunity.

[Rutee]

EE and WG are obsessed with seeing Tolkien win despite all logic and reason, so I suspect the two of you are wasting your time.


Hell, WG makes up powers and then attributes them to the canon, whilst virulently slamming any relation of mechanics to canon. You're genuinely better off leaving them to their delusion.

[EvilElitest]

EE and WG are obsessed with seeing Tolkien win despite all logic and reason, so I suspect the two of you are wasting your time.


Hell, WG makes up powers and then attributes them to the canon, whilst virulently slamming any relation of mechanics to canon. You're genuinely better off leaving them to their delusion.

OK god, Rutte, STOP


Just STOP


I am over hte edge now

This is an argument about a pair of fictional characters, stop taking this so persionally
All you have been doing is launching these annoying personal attacks on me and WG, simple because we have
argued against you in a vs. thread, gasp
and this has extended to other threads as well
If you want to argue against me, cool
If you want to disagree with me, cool
If you want to be snide with me, insult me, prove me wrong using evidence, cool
If you want to say i'm incorrect, i'm making mistakes in reserch, i'm not backing up my points, i'm not making sense (provided you can prove why), that my point fails, cool
If you want to counter, avert, or destroy my point, cool

But if you are blatently flaming, insulting, and generally ruining my expierence on the thread, not cool

I am undead, Asmondeous, and all other people who have been arguing for at least the last two pages have stayed civil. We have been going back and forth for a while without any personal attacks. It has been fun, both sides have made progress, both sides have conceded points and won points, and both sides have countered, re countered eachother.
Then you launch this flaming message

I'm going to tell this now, as i can't speak for WG, but i don't belive Tolkien creatures can win everything.
I've admitted that romans can beat Uruk-hai
I've admitted that rastalin can defeat Sauron
I've admitted that any elder evil could defeat Sauron
I've admitted that Sargarous could defeat Sauron
I've admitted that Sauron, or any tolkien character Can be defeated
I'm not just a super fan boy who can't comperhend the idea of Sauron losing to anything, if i was i would have fallen out of this debate
Now i admit to being an Evil Elitist, and i admit to being extremly stubborn when it comes to quotes
But this is just blatently flaming, to the point of trolling
Calling me and WG fanatics would solve anything, it is inmature, cowardly, and blatently insulting

now if you have something productive to say, a point taht we missed, or an option on the topic at hand i'd be glad to respond


But this, this is just insulting. . You accuse WG of making stuff up and not sticking to cannon, EVEN though we have provided cannon sources for are materials. And you call me delusiona lPlease stop these irrelvant attacks or i will be forced to call a mod, something i am extremly relucant to do and have not been forced to do so far

To those on the LK's side who are acting civil, thank you, it is a great relief
from,
EE

[Rutee]

EE lecturing me on civility and maturity, when I'm merely returning the same consideration I've gotten.

Delicious Irony, but still short of Warlock Tears.

[Rowanomicon]

Rutee, if you feel that you have been treated inconsiderately I suggest you do one of two things:

1) Ignore it and avoid threads where said inconsiderate people are posting.

or

2) report it to a mod so they can decide if the people are breaking the forum rules

Even if the rudeness you displayed was displayed to you first that is no reason to return it.
I know that we try to be family friendly here on these boards but I do believe that we also have a standard of practicing attitudes more mature than "he started it."

In short: if you have a dispute with one or more poster either take it to PM and settle it personally, ignore those people, or ask a mod for help.

Please refrain from ruining fun threads like this for the rest of us.

Thank you.

[EvilElitest]

EE lecturing me on civility and maturity, when I'm merely returning the same consideration I've gotten.

Delicious Irony, but still short of Warlock Tears.

If you find me in any way inmature, or find my and WG's points incorrect, then by all means counter it. Resorting to trolling is just wasteful and hypocritical, if you have a point to make than by all means state it, but if your just being insulting, than stop wasting the enjoyment of the thread and my time

Thank you
from,
EE

[EvilElitest]

Now forgive me for a double post, but back on topic, just a quick recap
Oh and fun fact, Gargolyes are according to the WOW RPG, humionids, not constructs.
The Lk seems to have

1. more dudes (debatable, but i Sauron's forces i think are in the mid hundred thousands, 500,000 to 700,000, possibly 900,000 total counting force from all ages. However, the LK has a really massive forces, so while i think Sauron has 1 million tops, the LK might have 1 million, 50,000 for all i know. More likely the numbers are lower than that, but i don't want to do the research right now However, i really haven't reserched the LK's numbers, so i could be wrong. However, i am of the understanding the LK starts out with greater numbers
2. The only way he can get more dudes (none of his living serveants breed fast, or mature fast) is via raising the dead, something i already pointed out is not a perfect system.
3. Lots of super monsters, flesh titians, abominations, undead beasts ect. However they are hard to create and require a lot of powerful people with the right materials, as well as a lot of time and effort.
4. He can mentally control most of his undead servants, though this isn't perfect
5. He is a very skilled melee fighter with a super sword
6. Reasonable intellegent with lots of spell casting powers (didn't me and undead dude have something to say about this? I forgot)
7. A good deal of moderattly powerful, to very powerful servants.
8. A very fast construction for his fortresses (though i am still confused on canon)
9. The undead plauge, though that is of limited effectivness
10. A good deal of reltaivily powerful lesser monsters (Crypt lords, banshees, Frost wryms, ect)
11. I really cold base


Now just four things i want to point out in Sauron's favor
1. An extremely organized, sophisticatedly run army, with well thought out and provenly effective battle tatics.
2. A super defensive position
3. An infrastructure, a very good one i must point out
4. Very good tatics (Sauron is one of the few fantasy villains who never cause me to go "Why the hell are you being so stupid?"
5. Ninjas

from,
EE

[Lord_Asmodeus]

earlier in the thread the magic in LOTR was described as "plot magic" because you can't really quantify it, it has no expected results and it doesn't really seem to have any tangible "rules" except for some very basic ones, and this is what makes it hard to argue against it because while you can always say "well in WC3 you can't do blah or blah or blah blah" its hard to pin down exactly what you can and cannot do in LOTR and exactly how the magic WORKS. In WC3 and alot of fantasy universes there's a well defined set of rules for how magic "works" but it doesn't always work like that with LOTR. and that makes it harder for people who argue on the side of WC3 to come up with reasons against say, LOTR orcs being unraisable, i mean why IS that? is that just the way it is or is there like a reason for it? And how about the ability to be resurrected as undead by WC3 magic which is markedly different than LOTR magic, or say the effectiveness of the plague on LOTR creatures like trolls. If a troll was infected by the Plague and it died under its effects would it get back up as an undead juggernaut?

these are just a couple of my many questions (which i will be thinking of how to word and how to present best)

[Neftren]

Well EE, the way you have it put... it's basically a statistical battle of who has the bigger and better army... The Lich King can raise undead guys... so for every Orc, Goblin and Uruk'hai killed, the Lich King can raise them... Now Tolkien had the entire LotR set in a very low magic, medieval setting... I don't see what can stop the Lich King from sending a contingent of say, Fire Spec Mages to blast Sauron's tower apart...

If it were a close combat battle which pits them one on one, I have a feeling Sauron would win. The Lich King has to get close to use his sword, whereas Sauron is clearly seen using his flail to knock human soldiers from 20 feet away... couple that with the fact that if Sauron has his ring, he is incapable of dying, unless the ring is destroyed...

[EvilElitest]

earlier in the thread the magic in LOTR was described as "plot magic" because you can't really quantify it, it has no expected results and it doesn't really seem to have any tangible "rules" except for some very basic ones, and this is what makes it hard to argue against it because while you can always say

Wait a second, stop right their.
We have establish the rules for LOTRS magic and its effects WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY back in the thread, and the proir thread to that. Please, plot magic is just incorrect
We have been using the rules for LOTRS magic for ages (vauge rules I admit, though that seems to work in your favor)



"well in WC3 you can't do blah or blah or blah blah" its hard to pin down exactly what you can and cannot do in LOTR and exactly how the magic WORKS.
To an extent, but you do realize that that is a disadvantage for OUR side not for you side?


In WC3 and alot of fantasy universes there's a well defined set of rules for how magic "works" but it doesn't always work like that with LOTR. and that makes it harder for people who argue on the side of WC3 to come up with reasons against say,
Then we do what we always do in Vs. threads, mesh.

LOTR orcs being unraisable, i mean why IS that? is that just the way it is or is there like a reason for it?
I named my reason, the scourge cannot raise beings who are soulles/controlled by the dark powers, i use the eastern centaurs as my example. In Warcraft, the undead cannot raise the eastern centaurs because they are controlled by some dark power
Orcs, wargs, trolls ect are created by the dark powers, same rules apply. See, i'm using Warcraft's rules on magic against you


And how about the ability to be resurrected as undead by WC3 magic which is markedly different than LOTR magic, or say the effectiveness of the plague on LOTR creatures like trolls. If a troll was infected by the Plague and it died under its effects would it get back up as an undead juggernaut?
My reason why troll couldn't be effected by the plauge is because they are from ents. I don't think the plauge will effect a walking tree (there are treents in WOW, does the plauge effect them? If so, they it will effect the trolls.) If a tree-end in Warcraft can be effected by the undead plauge (I don't see how that makes sense but what do i know) then it is logical to assume the plauge could effect ents and by extension trolls



these are just a couple of my many questions (which i will be thinking of how to word and how to present best)
Good luck to you

Well EE, the way you have it put... it's basically a statistical battle of who has the bigger and better army... The Lich King can raise undead guys... so for every Orc, Goblin and Uruk'hai killed, the Lich King can raise them...
Already covered, the Dark races of LOTRS can't be turned into undead by the scourge.

Now Tolkien had the entire LotR set in a very low magic, medieval setting...
subtle magic, not low magic, difference


I don't see what can stop the Lich King from sending a contingent of say, Fire Spec Mages to blast Sauron's tower apart..
1. I don't think the LK has fire spec mages
2. Getting there?
3. Anti magic
4. Nazgul, hoards of orcs, ect
5. The dark towers is next to impossible to destroy

If it were a close combat battle which pits them one on one, I have a feeling Sauron would win. The Lich King has to get close to use his sword, whereas Sauron is clearly seen using his flail to knock human soldiers from 20 feet away... couple that with the fact that if Sauron has his ring, he is incapable of dying, unless the ring is destroyed..
Pretty much, just a minor nitpick, it is a mace not a flail
from,
EE

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Well treants in WC3 don't become undead, but they are corrupted and turned evil by exposure to unholy energies, the Satyr's have a number of corrupted forest beings (since the Satyr's are corrupted NE) they pretty much have all the tree-people types that the NE have except you know... evil. Plus I didn't think you needed to have a soul to be turned undead, I mean they have undead dogs and animals (unless dogs have souls in WC i don't know) And as for the other thing, I don't know about that, but I'll look into it.

[EvilElitest]

Well treants in WC3 don't become undead, but they are corrupted and turned evil by exposure to unholy energies, the Satyr's have a number of corrupted forest beings (since the Satyr's are corrupted NE) they pretty much have all the tree-people types that the NE have except you know... evil.

1. That is corruption by demonic fell energy, not by teh Scourge. Good point though
2. Most of Sauron's evil trees and trolls are already totally corrupted


Plus I didn't think you needed to have a soul to be turned undead, I mean they have undead dogs and animals (unless dogs have souls in WC i don't know) And as for the other thing, I don't know about that, but I'll look into it.
Close, but no cigar. The eastern centars can't be raised as undead because they are bound to a dark power. The orcs, trolls, wargs, ect are also bound to a dark power, you see my point
But keep looking, i don't know if animals have souls in wow. Can teh scourge raise animals? They can raise horses, so it makes sense for them to raise sauron's wolves

from,
EE

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Well the only real reason I can think of that Treants werent effected by the Plague is that they're trees(plants) and not animals, it might work on trolls because they're animalish, or it might not, I don't know, but it seems to me it would more plausible for a troll than a tree-person to be effected by the plague

[EvilElitest]

Well the only real reason I can think of that Treants werent effected by the Plague is that they're trees(plants) and not animals, it might work on trolls because they're animalish, or it might not, I don't know, but it seems to me it would more plausible for a troll than a tree-person to be effected by the plague

But trolls are mutated ents, there in lies my argument.
the devil is in the details
from,
EE

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Dude if a dog somehow mutated from a cat it would still be a dog.

[EvilElitest]

Dude if a dog somehow mutated from a cat it would still be a dog.

doesn't that prove my point? My point was that even if trolls are mutated from ents they still follow the rules of trees (aka they can't get sick from the plague, unless you know something i don't)

Also, is this the time you normally get on? We seem to be the only people on around 1:30
from,
EE

[Bago!!!]

That makes no sense. In mind perhaps but physically no. Unless I am missing something....

[Lord_Asmodeus]

doesn't that prove my point? My point was that even if trolls are mutated from ents they still follow the rules of trees (aka they can't get sick from the plague, unless you know something i don't)

Also, is this the time you normally get on? We seem to be the only people on around 1:30
from,
EE

No it means that it doesnt mean what the hell it came from its not that anymore, I don't care if a troll used to be a tree, its not a tree now its a troll, which, being animal-like and all, means it won't be effected (or not effected) the same way a tree would.

and its 11:30 here, we got back from a movie not too long ago.

[EvilElitest]

No it means that it doesnt mean what the hell it came from its not that anymore, I don't care if a troll used to be a tree, its not a tree now its a troll, which, being animal-like and all, means it won't be effected (or not effected) the same way a tree would.

1. Accually, it is a "Mockery of ents" so it kinda vauge
2. If we ignore that, then answer me this? Can rock elementals in wow catch the plague?



and its 11:30 here, we got back from a movie not too long ago.
Cool, i'm snowed in up here, have nothing better to do
from,
EE

[Lord_Asmodeus]

There are no "rock elementals" rock giants are the closest things to them and they only showed up (or woke up really) after the Undead had pretty much stopped most of their activity, plus they woke in kalimdor and the Lich King has a far weaker presence their, and the giants were fighting against the naga, so there's very little evidence to say whether they can or cannot. Other elementals probably can't be undead because they're not really "infectable" (being water and fire and stuff) plus they work for the Old Gods, a far more powerful evil than the Lich King (these dudes waged war with the Titans and barely lost, they're tough)

[Rutee]

2. If we ignore that, then answer me this? Can rock elementals in wow catch the plague?
That's... a literally impossible question to answer, as there are no Scourge PCs. The closest analogue would be the Magic Immune Elementals that were creeps in WC3, and as they were Magic Immune, the answer was no.

I'm jiving with Asmodeus' logic more on this. I mean, following this logic of "Trolls are tree-like because they were corrupted from Ents", Undead are typed as living humanoids, not undead. Which is patently ridiculous, no?


Old Gods, a far more powerful evil than the Lich King (these dudes waged war with the Titans and barely lost, they're tough)
Well, not anymore. They certainly were, but
1: Arthas defeats a returning Old God while weakened
2: PCs have beaten C'thun
Neither, however, is at their full power, to be sure.

[EvilElitest]

There are no "rock elementals" rock giants are the closest things to them and they only showed up (or woke up really) after the Undead had pretty much stopped most of their activity, plus they woke in kalimdor and the Lich King has a far weaker presence their, and the giants were fighting against the naga, so there's very little evidence to say whether they can or cannot. Other elementals probably can't be undead because they're not really "infectable" (being water and fire and stuff) plus they work for the Old Gods, a far more powerful evil than the Lich King (these dudes waged war with the Titans and barely lost, they're tough)

Ok, earth elementals then. Bear in mind this doesn't yet prove that Trolls can get the plague, just indulge me


That's... a literally impossible question to answer, as there are no Scourge PCs. The closest analogue would be the Magic Immune Elementals that were creeps in WC3, and as they were Magic Immune, the answer was no.

horray, a resonse
can earth elementals (http://www.wowwiki.com/Earth_elemental) get the scourges plague?


from,
EE

[Lepre_Khan]

Sorry to butt in here but...

"Trolls are corrupted ents, thus have tree like properties" isn't the same thing as "Zombies are undead humans, thus are living humanoids"

Zombies do have certain human like properties in their make up. Same cells and all that, its just that what fuels them has changed and they've lost their soul (or something.) You can burn humans, you can burn zombies. I'd imagine zombies can get cancer and what not too, it's just the cellular mutations and deconstruction don't effect them because their body doesn't keep them alive, their life is a result of Dark Magic.

So, trolls are corrupted ents, thus have tree like properties makes complete sense.

Though, I do question them being corrupted Ents. I thought the mockery of Ents implied that Sauron created his own creatures in an attempt to mimic the Ents, but failed. I hadn't read it as Sauron tooks Ents and experimented on them.

[warty goblin]

Here's my take on trolls and disease:

1) Trolls may or may not be corrupted ents, the language is very vague.

2) However I'm not sure how relevant it is if they are corrupted ents or not.

3) Because they live in the same conditions as orcs, aka complete squalor. In order to survive this, I speculate that trolls must have great immune systems.

4) Hence, trolls can get the plague, but its unlikely and will take lots and lots of exposure.

5) Which given that there'e no evidence of anybody catching the plague from being exposed to contaminated air, means that they'll have to eat contaminated food, or possibly be around one of those plague-spewing cauldrons.

6) Due to Sauron's logistical skills, the eating of plagued food is unlikely.

7) Large sorcorous cauldrons with attending accolytes don't seem the smartest things to set up in the middle of a battle. Particulary if Sauron managed to get his hands on that stuff, we already know he's good with plagues, so I'd imagine he'd be able to mess with it a bit and kill off most of the LK's living forces at least. But then, that's more conjecture on my part, and easily open to interpretation.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Sorry to butt in here but...

"Trolls are corrupted ents, thus have tree like properties" isn't the same thing as "Zombies are undead humans, thus are living humanoids"

Zombies do have certain human like properties in their make up. Same cells and all that, its just that what fuels them has changed and they've lost their soul (or something.) You can burn humans, you can burn zombies. I'd imagine zombies can get cancer and what not too, it's just the cellular mutations and deconstruction don't effect them because their body doesn't keep them alive, their life is a result of Dark Magic.

So, trolls are corrupted ents, thus have tree like properties makes complete sense.

Though, I do question them being corrupted Ents. I thought the mockery of Ents implied that Sauron created his own creatures in an attempt to mimic the Ents, but failed. I hadn't read it as Sauron tooks Ents and experimented on them.

Dude even if you explain away the whole "undead being living people is same as trolls being treants" thing (which wasn't my view at all)trolls being just like treants only different still doesn't make sense, because while undead are just dead people, trolls are creatures that have been totally changed from their original form (if trolls being corrupted treants is the way you wanna interpret it)

As for the "earth" elementals I would have to say "no" for a few reasons, for one they're made of... well of earth and so have no biological components to get sick, also they can't be undead because again they aren't really "alive" to begin with and they are already created and owned by the Old Gods who's power and evil surpass that of even mighty Sargeras, greatest of the demons and original lord of the legion, i mean it took alot of titans to beat these guys, and they couldn't even kill them, they had to lock them away forever (in the center of the world i believe though i could be wrong)

[EvilElitest]

Sorry to butt in here but...

"Trolls are corrupted ents, thus have tree like properties" isn't the same thing as "Zombies are undead humans, thus are living humanoids"

Zombies do have certain human like properties in their make up. Same cells and all that, its just that what fuels them has changed and they've lost their soul (or something.) You can burn humans, you can burn zombies. I'd imagine zombies can get cancer and what not too, it's just the cellular mutations and deconstruction don't effect them because their body doesn't keep them alive, their life is a result of Dark Magic.

So, trolls are corrupted ents, thus have tree like properties makes complete sense.


thank you



Though, I do question them being corrupted Ents. I thought the mockery of Ents implied that Sauron created his own creatures in an attempt to mimic the Ents, but failed. I hadn't read it as Sauron tooks Ents and experimented on them.
It was morgoth, Tree beard says that Trolls are to ents as orcs are to elves.
from,
EE

[EvilElitest]

sorry for the double post, but i'm having major lag and trouble editing


Dude even if you explain away the whole "undead being living people is same as trolls being treants" thing (which wasn't my view at all)trolls being just like treants only different still doesn't make sense, because while undead are just dead people, trolls are creatures that have been totally changed from their original form (if trolls being corrupted treants is the way you wanna interpret it)

Trolls are a corrupted version of ends (don't use treants please, that is just the WOW bastardization of the original word
Now their are two ways this can be understood
1. Trolls are on longer made up of wood, but have many traits similar to ents, and thus should be judged by their standards in terms of weaknesses.
2. Trolls are like ents, but more like stone, instead of wood. This makes more sense as their are quite a few times where trolls are compared to stone, most note worthy in the Hobbit were they are said to return to the stone from which they came. So logically, if they are creatures of stone, than one must judge them as other stone creatures, thus leading to my next point



As for the "earth" elementals I would have to say "no" for a few reasons, for one they're made of... well of earth and so have no biological components to get sick, also they can't be undead because again they aren't really "alive" to begin with and they are already created and owned by the Old Gods who's power and evil surpass that of even mighty Sargeras, greatest of the demons and original lord of the legion, i mean it took alot of titans to beat these guys, and they couldn't even kill them, they had to lock them away forever (in the center of the world i believe though i could be wrong)
For these reason, i think that the trolls can't be infected, must like earth elementals
And WG, have you been playing WOW? Who mentioned the cauldrons?

from,
EE

[I_am_an_undead]

Oh and fun fact, Gargolyes are according to the WOW RPG, humionids, not constructs.

I don't really care what WoW RPG says they are humanoids. They are described as proto-golems made of earth and stone, so LK can create them from earth and stone. Also, WoW RPG says LK is the strongest being to ever walk on Azeroth, which is an outright lie do to the fact that Saeregas walked on Azeroth.


1. more dudes (debatable, but i Sauron's forces i think are in the mid hundred thousands, 500,000 to 700,000, possibly 900,000 total counting force from all ages. However, the LK has a really massive forces, so while i think Sauron has 1 million tops, the LK might have 1 million, 50,000 for all i know. More likely the numbers are lower than that, but i don't want to do the research right now However, i really haven't reserched the LK's numbers, so i could be wrong. However, i am of the understanding the LK starts out with greater numbers

True, if we give all the creatures LK controlled to LK, including those who have been killed, the numbers become stagerringly high.


2. The only way he can get more dudes (none of his living serveants breed fast, or mature fast) is via raising the dead, something i already pointed out is not a perfect system.

But not a bad one either. There is just some disadvantages to it.


3. Lots of super monsters, flesh titians, abominations, undead beasts ect. However they are hard to create and require a lot of powerful people with the right materials, as well as a lot of time and effort.

True.


4. He can mentally control most of his undead servants, though this isn't perfect

But it's better than some have tried to describe it in this thread. It is extremely hard to make LK lose control of his undead servants.


5. He is a very skilled melee fighter with a super sword

Yay for super-swords!


6. Reasonable intellegent with lots of spell casting powers (didn't me and undead dude have something to say about this? I forgot)

I don't remember having something to say about it. I think that he is more intelligent than people here give him credit for, but it's hard to prove someone's intelligence when intelligence isn't even a clear concept in our world, so it's mostly an opinion.


7. A good deal of moderattly powerful, to very powerful servants.

True.


8. A very fast construction for his fortresses (though i am still confused on canon)

It's not faster, dammit! It's just that it doesn't need the mobilisation of a big construction group, just one person. Through I'd be ready to withdraw from my position if someone can show an exemple of the Scrouge needing to construct a building normally.


9. The undead plauge, though that is of limited effectivness

True.


10. A good deal of reltaivily powerful lesser monsters (Crypt lords, banshees, Frost wryms, ect)

Crypt Lords are lesser monsters? They were the kings of the Nerubians and are the leaders of the crypt fiends. I don't think they count as lesser monsters. And I wouldn't count Frost Wyrms as "relatively powerful", but as very powerful. At least, that's how I see it.



Now just four things i want to point out in Sauron's favor
1. An extremely organized, sophisticatedly run army, with well thought out and provenly effective battle tatics.
2. A super defensive position
3. An infrastructure, a very good one i must point out
4. Very good tatics (Sauron is one of the few fantasy villains who never
5. Ninjas
cause me to go "Why the hell are you being so stupid?"
from,
EE

1. Okay.
2. Okay.
3. Okay. Through I think people underestimate LK's infrastructure. We have seen very little of the organisation of Northrend, after all. But Sauron is better.
4. who never what?
5. Oh, ha ha.
What do you mean by that?


I keep forgetting them because most of them have already switched sides. Do the forsakon count by the way, because if they do then Sauron gets the fleet of Ar-Pharazon

I think it's pretty clear LK doesn't get the Forsaken, due to them being another faction now, and we have no other faction involved in this battle. Also, you say most of them. I say some of them. I am backed by the WoWwiki article on banshees that say that most are still enslaved to the LK. So LK has enough banshees that they are not to be ignored.


Trolls are a corrupted version of ends (don't use treants please, that is just the WOW bastardization of the original word
Now their are two ways this can be understood
1. Trolls are on longer made up of wood, but have many traits similar to ents, and thus should be judged by their standards in terms of weaknesses.
2. Trolls are like ents, but more like stone, instead of wood. This makes more sense as their are quite a few times where trolls are compared to stone, most note worthy in the Hobbit were they are said to return to the stone from which they came. So logically, if they are creatures of stone, than one must judge them as other stone creatures, thus leading to my next point


For these reason, i think that the trolls can't be infected, must like earth elementals
And WG, have you been playing WOW? Who mentioned the cauldrons?

from,
EE

I call foul. Troll may have stone-like qualities, and they may have decended from Ents or at least have been inspired of them, but they are still of flesh, and they still have a biological system. Comparing them to an earth elemental, who is made of stone completly, is wrong I think.
If the Trolls can't be affected, it's would probably be because of what WG said, the whole "living in similar ways to the orcs" thing.

[EvilElitest]

I don't really care what WoW RPG says they are humanoids. They are described as proto-golems made of earth and stone, so LK can create them from earth and stone. Also, WoW RPG says LK is the strongest being to ever walk on Azeroth, which is an outright lie do to the fact that Saeregas walked on Azeroth.

Nice to have you back

Now we have cannon issue? What is more cannon, Warcraft III or WOW RPG. I don't know, the warcraft team will have to decide
Yes i know the RPG says that out right lie, though they do bother to stat him, something none of the other to games have done. I don't know which system is cannon more, though gargolyes look huminod in WOW



True, if we give all the creatures LK controlled to LK, including those who have been killed, the numbers become stagerringly high.

I was counting them to get that number, same goes for Sauron as well. However, we still haven't decieded if the LK gets the forsakon. If he does, than Sauron gets Ar-Pharazon's fleet


But not a bad one either. There is just some disadvantages to it.

Niffty, not an perfect tatics, but no disadvantages (except for lack of bodies, but Sauorn has plenty of human followers)




True.
wish we knew more about them



But it's better than some have tried to describe it in this thread. It is extremely hard to make LK lose control of his undead servants.


But it can be done.


Yay for super-swords!
As long as the ydon't go into the level of absurdness that Cloud's sword does



I don't remember having something to say about it. I think that he is more intelligent than people here give him credit for, but it's hard to prove someone's intelligence when intelligence isn't even a clear concept in our world, so it's mostly an opinion.


He has a major orginization problem, that is worth noting
True.




It's not faster, dammit! It's just that it doesn't need the mobilisation of a big construction group, just one person. Through I'd be ready to withdraw from my position if someone can show an exemple of the Scrouge needing to construct a building normally.
fine, extremly labor efficent building group



Crypt Lords are lesser monsters? They were the kings of the Nerubians and are the leaders of the crypt fiends. I don't think they count as lesser monsters. And I wouldn't count Frost Wyrms as "relatively powerful", but as very powerful. At least, that's how I see it.


Fine, moderatly powerful monsters, with enough intellegence to control troops


1. Okay.
2. Okay.
3. Okay. Through I think people underestimate LK's infrastructure. We have seen very little of the organisation of Northrend, after all. But Sauron is better.
4. who never what?
5. Oh, ha ha.
What do you mean by that?

3. under most of the articles (ghouls, zombies, skeletons, abominations) it says they use what ever weapons happens to be at hand.
4. damn it, i hate this lag. What i ment to say was

Very good tatics (Sauron is one of the few fantasy villains who never cause me to go "Why the hell are you being so stupid?"
damn attempt to edit screwed everything up, the ninja comes after that sorry
5. He odes have ninjas, there are in the book and in the movies :smallbiggrin:



I think it's pretty clear LK doesn't get the Forsaken, due to them being another faction now, and we have no other faction involved in this battle. Also, you say most of them. I say some of them. I am backed by the WoWwiki article on banshees that say that most are still enslaved to the LK. I’m afraid I win on that, so LK has enough banshees that they are not to be ignored.

1. But they were once controlled by the LK. Ah well
2. Can you provide a source?
3. I really wish we had a good number of the Lk's forces
[QUOTE}
I call foul. Troll may have stone-like qualities, and they may have decended from Ents or at least have been inspired of them, but they are still of flesh, and they still have a biological system. Comparing them to an earth elemental, who is made of stone completly, is wrong I think.
If the Trolls can't be affected, it's would probably be because of what WG said, the whole "living in similar ways to the orcs" thing.[/QUOTE]
In the Hobbits the trolls are described as being made os stone. Treebeard compares trolls to ents but in terms of stone instread of wood. So it is logical to compare them to other such beings. Mountain giants maybe?
from,
EE

[I_am_an_undead]

Nice to have you back

I thought I'd stay away longer, but this thread has more power over me than an evil cleric with rebuke undead.


Now we have cannon issue? What is more cannon, Warcraft III or WOW RPG. I don't know, the warcraft team will have to decide
Yes i know the RPG says that out right lie, though they do bother to stat him, something none of the other to games have done. I don't know which system is cannon more, though gargolyes look huminod in WOW

I'm not exactly sure, but I don't have WoW RPG or simply WoW, so I tend to take warcraft III (and the marvelous WoWwiki) as my primary source. Still, I think they are constructed.


I was counting them to get that number, same goes for Sauron as well. However, we still haven't decieded if the LK gets the forsakon. If he does, than Sauron gets Ar-Pharazon's fleet

I really don't think the Forsaken goes to LK. Yes, they were under his control at one point, but... I don't know. It just seems weird to give him the Forsaken now.


Niffty, not an perfect tatics, but no disadvantages (except for lack of bodies, but Sauorn has plenty of human followers)

Alrigth.


wish we knew more about them

The plague? Here's it's wikipage (http://www.wowwiki.com/Plague). Through what is said in that page, I think the LK can infect people close enough to him without resorting to grain or anything. However, he can't spread the plague by himself too far, because he needed the infected grain to make the plague reach Lorderon. Also, the plague cauldrons serve to empower the undead in addition to spreading the plague into the air, so it is useful to build.


But it can be done.

Indeed.


As long as the ydon't go into the level of absurdness that Cloud's sword does

True. Or Sephiroth's.



He has a major orginization problem, that is worth noting
True.

Alright.


fine, extremly labor efficent building group

Thank you. Like I say, I'm open to proof of the contrary.


Fine, moderatly powerful monsters, with enough intellegence to control troops

Moderatly? Crypt Lords? I'm not talking about Crypt Fiends there, you know? Because Crypt Lords are pretty much hero units.



3. under most of the articles (ghouls, zombies, skeletons, abominations) it says they use what ever weapons happens to be at hand.
4. damn it, i hate this lag. What i ment to say was

damn attempt to edit screwed everything up, the ninja comes after that sorry
5. He odes have ninjas, there are in the book and in the movies :smallbiggrin:

3. All these creature are crude and stupid, and except abominations, very mass produced. Also, at least for the ghouls, you're wrong, the ghouls never use weapons because they have claws and fangs that they prefer. And I haven't found that said in any articles.
4. Okay.
5. Still, ninjas aren't that much of an advantage.


1. But they were once controlled by the LK. Ah well
2. Can you provide a source?
3. I really wish we had a good number of the Lk's forces

1. I still think LK don't have them, for some reason.
2. Sure.4th paragraph of the first section of their wikipage (http://www.wowwiki.com/Banshee).
3. Me too.


In the Hobbits the trolls are described as being made os stone. Treebeard compares trolls to ents but in terms of stone instread of wood. So it is logical to compare them to other such beings. Mountain giants maybe?
from,
EE

Alright.

[EvilElitest]

I thought I'd stay away longer, but this thread has more power over me than an evil cleric with rebuke undead.

don't stay away, the thread would get boring
Oh and this thread is more additing that WOW



I'm not exactly sure, but I don't have WoW RPG or simply WoW, so I tend to take warcraft III (and the marvelous WoWwiki) as my primary source. Still, I think they are constructed.

and the manual of monsters says they are a race? how do we find out who is right?


I really don't think the Forsaken goes to LK. Yes, they were under his control at one point, but... I don't know. It just seems weird to give him the Forsaken now.
Fair enough, sauron does not get hte faithful under his control



The plague? Here's it's wikipage (http://www.wowwiki.com/Plague). Through what is said in that page, I think the LK can infect people close enough to him without resorting to grain or anything. However, he can't spread the plague by himself too far, because he needed the infected grain to make the plague reach Lorderon. Also, the plague cauldrons serve to empower the undead in addition to spreading the plague into the air, so it is useful to build.
speaking of the plague it doesn't really say it can spread to huminiods without direct contact via food




True. Or Sephiroth's.
I am of that option that the nine yard sword is defently comprasating for something



Thank you. Like I say, I'm open to proof of the contrary.
[/QUOTE
I don't know where to get it, i'll look around


[QUOTE]Moderatly? Crypt Lords? I'm not talking about Crypt Fiends there, you know? Because Crypt Lords are pretty much hero units.


Find, Frost wryms are moderatly and Crypt lords are quite, very is reserved for death knights and extremly is for liches



3. All these creature are crude and stupid, and except abominations, very mass produced. Also, at least for the ghouls, you're wrong, the ghouls never use weapons because they have claws and fangs that they prefer. And I haven't found that said in any articles.
4. Okay.
5. Still, ninjas aren't that much of an advantage.

3. check agains here is some
It has no possessions and carries only the items given to it by its creator.
Abominations normally use rusty axe, bucher knives and chains. Your right about the ghouls, but i have not seen any uniform equipment in the scourges ranks
4. hate lag
5. but there troll ninjas:smallbiggrin:

1. I still think LK don't have them, for some reason.
2. Sure.4th paragraph of the first section of their wikipage (http://www.wowwiki.com/Banshee).
3. Me too.
1. Ok
2. Found it, ok he has a sizable force then
3. Would make things as lot easier



Alright.

I feel happy now
from
EE

[I_am_an_undead]

and the manual of monsters says they are a race? how do we find out who is right?

I'm afraid I have no idea.


Fair enough, sauron does not get hte faithful under his control

Who?


speaking of the plague it doesn't really say it can spread to huminiods without direct contact via food

Well, on it's wikipage, it says: "Using his will alone, he spread the mystic disease to the nearby denizens in the local regions, including Ice Trolls, Humans, and other creatures, immediately killing them and causing them to rise again as undead. " This, to me, indicates that at LK can make a more effective plague that doesn't require food, but simply his presence to work. But beyond that, he needed the food to spread it.


I am of that option that the nine yard sword is defently comprasating for something

Yup.


Find, Frost wryms are moderatly and Crypt lords are quite, very is reserved for death knights and extremly is for liches

Alright then.


3. check agains here is some
Abominations normally use rusty axe, bucher knives and chains. Your right about the ghouls, but i have not seen any uniform equipment in the scourges ranks
4. hate lag
5. but there troll ninjas:smallbiggrin:

3.Alright
4. Understandable.
5. What the hell? Troll ninja? I... I... What the hell?


2. Found it, ok he has a sizable force then

Now, if we had any idea of how sizeable that force is exactly...

[warty goblin]

Sauron's forces are somewhat difficult to estimate, so fear not its not just a problem for the Lich King supporters. We LOTR sorts know the pain of trying to pry numbers and concrete information from the unyielding rock of the source material.

Now we know he sent three armies to attack Minas Tirith, the primary assault force, a secondary force that initially stayed in Osgiliath, and the Corsairs as well. The corsairs of course never reached Minas Tirith, but were still sent. He also sent an army to attack the Lonely Mountain, and I think another to attack Lorien as well. So he dispatched five armies, and still had a vast horde of orcs and other various and sundry evils left in Mordor, enough to completely outmatch the remnants of the three armies of men. The figure given is "ten times and more than ten times their match", or a lot of dudes, call it worth 1.5 of the armies he sent out abroad. Sauron also by proxy controlled the army of Saruman. This gives him a total of 7.5 full armies worth. Unfortunately its pretty much impossible to calculate how many men there are in an army, but Sauron is not hurting for grunts.

Now, how long does it take to create and equip an army? I'm going to use Saruman's as an example here, because we have the most information about its creation and its timeline. During the Council of Elrond, which occurs sometime in October I believe, Gandalf reveals that Saruman has turned and is creating an army. The actual imprisonment of Gandalf July, with him escaping on September 18. Now it is somewhat unclear as to how long Gandalf is imprisoned, and when exactly during that time that Saruman began the creation of his army. Gandalf walked into Isengard and thought something was wrong, but given that he didn't notice the orcs around, it seems likely that their presense then was lowscale and insignificant, and only after Gandalf is imprisoned does Saruman start the actual work of creating an army. This also makes sense because it means that Saruman waited until he had control of the knowledge of the Ring's location before taking drastic action, which would seem to me to be the smart thing to do. Let's call the official date when Saruman embarked on this venture September 1st, since it had to be sometime in that vicinity.

Now that we have a start date, how long did it take for the army of Saruman to really get going? We know by the Battle of Helm's Deep occured in March, but that was the capstone of a war which had been going for some time. I can't find the dates of the First Battle at the Fords of Isen, but it definately occured before Gandalf arrived at Edoras in March, so let's go with a date of February 1st. This means that Saruman created and armed his forces in 7 months, including the breeding of improved Uruk-Hai and goblin-men, plus startup time. Not bad at all. Sauron, with his greater experience and already existing infastructure could probably pull it off in around 6 months. Six months to create an entire army, including breeding time is pretty fast. Replacing and maintaining existing armies is going to be no problem at all.

Another point, Sauron gains more from controlling territory than the LK does. Sauron can turn conquered lands to agriculture and orc-host spawning, and the creation of armor and weapons. The LK just taints his land, but doesn't produce anything from it. If Sauron starts winning its going to be very very hard for the LK to stop him, because Sauron's military-industrial complex will be picking up speed, while the Lich King's stagnates.

[EvilElitest]

I'm afraid I have no idea.


This is rather depressing, because a lot of points on both sides rely on the RPG


Who?

I'm sorry, i mistyped

When Sauron took over Nundamor, there where three fractions. The king's men, or black nudamorians who served Sauron out of loyality
The normal people who just obeyed hte king normally
The faithful who activlly resisited sauorn
I ment to say that hte neutrals will not work for Sauron, but the king's men still would


Well, on it's wikipage, it says: "Using his will alone, he spread the mystic disease to the nearby denizens in the local regions, including Ice Trolls, Humans, and other creatures, immediately killing them and causing them to rise again as undead. " This, to me, indicates that at LK can make a more effective plague that doesn't require food, but simply his presence to work. But beyond that, he needed the food to spread it.

In the RPG, it says that he uses tainted meat to try an spread it to teh trolls, so that doesn't seem to be quite true






3.Alright
4. Understandable.
5. What the hell? Troll ninja? I... I... What the hell?

Yeah, they appear three times in the book, stopped twice by the ent ninjas, the only ninjas more powerful
In the movie the troll ninjas fight ent ninjas in the last movie but in the second movie Uruk-hai ninjas fight against the elven ninjas when the gate is being attacked:smallwink:


Now, if we had any idea of how sizeable that force is exactly...
You could figure out the pouplation of the elvish nation prior to the war, and the pouplation after and divide it by five and you might have a general idea
from
EE

[EvilElitest]

I wish to point something else. Warty goblin, you've made a slight mistake. there were 9 armies at hte siege of minis tirith.

1. From morgul
2. From the black gate, mordor forces
3. From Harad (shows up at dawn)
4. from the east (easterlings, men of rhun, swarymen and the like)
5. From deep harad and khand (shows up at the same time as aragorn
6. the black fleet
7. The at Osgilith
8. a large force of orcs and easterlings taht acted as reserve, didn't see combat until after the battle
9. A huge orc force sent to block Rohan from getting to gondor, however they were evaded by hte rider going through dunland forests secret road. This last force was large enough that 6,000 riders with the element of surprise and the entire Woes nation could not hope to defeat them without the sun

Also, Dul Guldor attacked the elves of Mirkwood, the Woodmen, the Beoronings, Lohren all at the same time
The armies of moria attacked Lohren twice (once unorginized however) and attacked Rohan/fanghorn
Saurman attacked Rohan, and a second mordor army tried to but was destroyed by the ents.

The armies of the north were able to attack the elves of mirkwood, and the lonely mountain, as well as threating riven dale and attacking the rangers. A small force was able to attack bree
The lonely mountian was attacked by three armies, as was dale and lake town

And a small force of three hundred men were able to attack teh shire


And this was ony a fraction of sauron's power
from,
EE

from,
EE

[Rowanomicon]

In terms of the number of armies that Sauron controls/creates I'd say that 10,000 is a nice round and fairly accurate number. For the sake of round numbers I'm going to adjust WG's estimate to 25 weeks.
That means that Sauron is churning out 400 armed and ready to fight soldiers a week.
That's pretty damn good.
This is surely much faster than the Lich King can create troops without raising the dead.
Even with raising the dead and a never-ending supply of fresh corpses how many in LK's army are capable of creating undead and how long does it take? I'm sure that, under those condition, they could churn out more than 400 a week, but
A) Those casters aren't fighting when they're raising
B) The undead they create are going to be quite inferior to Uruks, let alone Trolls and the like.

I would say that a group of Uruks could tear through a larger group (possibly five times the number) of Udead without taking heavy casualties. This is, however, if it was just zombies and skeletons (none of the caster or larger things), but it's also if it was just Uruks.

Sauron is not the typical stupid person fighting undead and letting all his dead be raised for use against him.
Now, it wouldn't be very economic for Sauron to create soul-stealing artifacts for all his troops. He'd have to keep himself busy churning out at least 400 lesser rings a week. I think he could probably do it if he really put his mind to it, but it's probably not the best plan.

He would, however, order all corpses recovered form battlefield that he won. That is a start; it also provides food for his army.
Next, he would have all his troops trained to decapitate, and otherwise desecrate, corpses on the battlefield any time they has the chance.

One really frustrating thing is that we know that Sauron has many casters on his side, but we don't really know what exactly they can do so we don't know if they have any way to prevent undead raising.
We do know that it is possible to create undead (such as the barrow wights), but since they are rare it must be a fairly hard thing to do that only the powerful casters are capable of. Either that or it takes a long time.

Well, gotta run, later.

[Deadmeat.GW]

Of course lets not forget that Sauron is also know as the Great Necromancer...

I.e. he is able to do the undead raising and controlling bit himself too.

I have said before that the odds are slightly in Saurons favor simply because he does have necromantic powers, i.e. he will know how to create undead, cast undead type spells and...therefore given his extreme powerful countermagical abilities he will be able to stop such spells in their tracks by all but the most powerful (you know, major gods or such plus).

But only slightly mind you unless specific circumstances come into play.

[EvilElitest]

wait rowan? Ten thousand? That is closer to saurman's numbers, Saurons is far greater

Also the LK really can't create troops without raising the dead
from,
EE

[warty goblin]

Of course lets not forget that Sauron is also know as the Great Necromancer...

I.e. he is able to do the undead raising and controlling bit himself too.

I have said before that the odds are slightly in Saurons favor simply because he does have necromantic powers, i.e. he will know how to create undead, cast undead type spells and...therefore given his extreme powerful countermagical abilities he will be able to stop such spells in their tracks by all but the most powerful (you know, major gods or such plus).

But only slightly mind you unless specific circumstances come into play.

I'm really not sure what exact necromantic powers Sauron has. Zombies and skeletons don't really seem to fit, since there's never any reference to him, or anybody else in Middle Earth, using creatures like that. Wraiths and Wights make more sense to me, particularly since we know that the Witch-King at least can create the evil spirits that animate the Barrow-Wights. What goes into the creation of such a spirit I unfortunately have absolutely no idea, but I think its a safe bet that he can do it.

I agree however that he will be very proficient in messing with the LK's undead, particularly the incorporeal ones like banshees, since those are the sort with which he is most familiar.

[Rowanomicon]

wait rowan? Ten thousand? That is closer to saurman's numbers, Saurons is far greater

Also the LK really can't create troops without raising the dead
from,
EE

10, 000 was the number I used for 1 army. Sauron would control many armies.

I was using that number because the timeframe for building/equipping armies was based off of what Saruman did and assuming that Sauron could do it faster.

Anyway the point is that Sauron can bolster his ranks with more than 50 extra soldiers a day.
The goal is to prove that LK either cannot keep up, or will expend much of his resources keeping up.

I do agree that it is fair to consider Sauron familiar with dark magics.

The Witch King could definitely go about creating wights and the like, but I doubt it would be worth it when he could tear through LK's ranks like a hot knife through butter (especially with a retinue backing him).
After all and anti-Angmar blade is needed to disrupt the magics that protect him from harm.
Even if you argue that we should allow powerful anti-undead weapons to do the same not many troops will carry such weapons and even if he gets "killed" he only has to go back to Mordor and Have Sauron give him a new set of equipment.

[Bago!!!]

I object to the Frost Wyrms being considered a moderate unit! They are one of the most powerful flying units available (there is a reason why they are one of the last to get in warcraft three).

Sauron raising undead? And he gets to mess with banshees and shades why?

And how will he beable to stop the spells Deadmeat? Counterspell doesn't seem to occur in LOTRs, though it does occur in WoW, atleast from my perspective. Course I may need to reread the books.

And how can sauron make so many units so quickly Rowan?

[Rowanomicon]

I was working of an earlier post by WG that stated the time it took for Saruman to raise his army (approx. 10,000 in 7 months) and stated that Sauron (with his superior resources and experience) could probably do it in about 6 months (which I rounded to 25 weeks).
I'm quite sure that my math is correct (as it is quite simple) so if you wish to counter the argument I suggest that you counter either the point of how long it took Saruman to build his army or the point that Sauron could do it slightly faster.

I'm pretty sure that we all agree that Sauron is not raising undead willy nilly. He (and his side) have shown the ability to create undead as well as other connections to necromancy, but the actual creating of undead is fairly rare which leads us to one the following conclusions:
1) They don't like undead very much so choose not to make them very often
2) Making undead is hard
3) Making undead takes a long time

Sauron does, however, have very powerful counter-magic abilities and is at least familiar with necromancy so it's no stretch to suggest that he could mess with undead and necromancers.

I am unfamiliar with the spell Deadmeat. Sorry if it's already been explained in this thread; I either missed or forgot it.

The Balrog counters Gandalf's door holding spell in Moria and almost "breaks" Gandalf in the process. So not only can Sauron and his casters counter spells, but if they are sufficiently powerful they can take the caste rout of commission by doing it.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

"Breaking" a spell through sheer magical force and using a counterspell are extremely different. The Balrog didn't just make the shield dissipate it had to destroy it, thus leading me to believe this wasnt a case of a counter-spell at all, and more a case of sheer magical strength. If there is positive proof to the contrary however, I'm willing to accept the possibility.

[WalkingTarget]

"Breaking" a spell through sheer magical force and using a counterspell are extremely different. The Balrog didn't just make the shield dissipate it had to destroy it, thus leading me to believe this wasnt a case of a counter-spell at all, and more a case of sheer magical strength. If there is positive proof to the contrary however, I'm willing to accept the possibility.

Through the various Sauron Vs [anybody] threads, we've essentially come to the conclusion that that's how all magic in Tolkien works. If you can do magic, you get the effect you want by concentrating on it until the universe backs down and lets you have your way. If "what you want" is to dispell somebody else's effect, it comes down to a test of will between the opponents (i.e. Gandalf and the Balrog over the door, Finrod and Sauron over a magical disguise, etc).

[Rowanomicon]

Yes, lets not get into a battle of definitions and semanticist again (like in the Voldy thread).
Whatever word you want to use for it Sauron has the ability to stop/destroy the effects of an enemy caster's spells.

EDIT: WG defined the Middle Earth magic system fairly accurately and rather brilliantly.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Yes but thats when it gets confusing, if thats how it works for Sauron in this blending then thats how it should work for LK, because if it works for Sauron in the whole blending of universes shouldn't it work for LK, or for things that work in WC work in LOTR universe?

[Rowanomicon]

I'm not quite sure exactly what you're asking, sorry.

I'm assuming transparency in that both magics work on the other side as they do in their own universe.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Well by that same wrote could the forces of one side learn how to utilize the magic of the other (given enough time to research of course) like Sauron learning how to create zombies and ghouls and LK making things like orcs and corrupting things like Sauron does.

[warty goblin]

I object to the Frost Wyrms being considered a moderate unit! They are one of the most powerful flying units available (there is a reason why they are one of the last to get in warcraft three).

Sauron raising undead? And he gets to mess with banshees and shades why?

And how will he beable to stop the spells Deadmeat? Counterspell doesn't seem to occur in LOTRs, though it does occur in WoW, atleast from my perspective. Course I may need to reread the books.

And how can sauron make so many units so quickly Rowan?

1) Frost Wyrms are also killed by archers. Sauron has lots of those.

2) In the Third Age, before he moves back to Mordor, Sauron is known as the Necromancer. This suggests the ability to raise and control some manner of undead. That or fortelling the future through the words of dead spirits, but that's not done in LOTR and undead are.

3) Because magic around Sauron fails harder than a kite made of lead. Out of all the magic that opposes him, only one spell does anything, a sleep spell cast by somebody powerful enough to charm a god. That spell causes him to stagger a little. It may or may not be counterspelling, depending on your definition, but he certainly can prevent magic very very well.

4) Sauron gets units that fast by the calculus of the last few pages, done by Rowan, EE and myself. Taking the time from when Saruman started creating an army to the time that army first engaged in combat as the maximum time to build up an army (maximum because Saruman was starting with nothing, Sauron isn't), we get that a fully armed fighting force can be created in around six months, or, to use Rowan's easier estimate, 25 weeks. Hard numbers are nearly impossible to come by in LOTR, so we assumed 10,000 for the size of Saruman's army, and that was the standard size of an evil army. Sauron has, by EE's count, about 13 or so armies, or a 130,000 entities of various types under his command, minimum. Now not all of those are orcs by any means, but it does give an idea of the speed at which Sauron could equip and mobilize forces, since he's far more powerful than Saruman and has far more resources at his disposal.

[Rowanomicon]

Well that is a whole other aspect of this discussion.

To be honest I had thought of it, but strayed away from bringing it up because I felt that, while realistic, it might blur the line sof exactly what we are comparing here.

Now that you've brought it up, however, I'll give you my thoughts on the matter.

Sauron is rather adept and absorbing people into his forces. I think that it wouldn't be a stretch for him to tempt at least one caster over to his side and thereby gain knowledge of LK's magic.

I also think that Sauron may be able to learn from capturing and studying undead and develop ways to raise or create his own undead units at a superior rate than he previously has.

Conversely LK could capture and study Sauron's troops as well. I doubt that LK could delve into the art of creating living creatures. It is a very complicated business that he has, to my knowledge, no previous experience in. Sauron does have previous experience in necromancy. Sauron also is a different type of being having been around since before the dawn of time.
LK could probably learn something of Sauron's troops' weaknesses though if he captured and studied them.
The question, though, is: Is this a tactic that LK would employ?
I have not seen any indication of such.

Also the corrupting things is more of a personal trait of Sauron rather than something someone may learn.

[warty goblin]

I object to the Frost Wyrms being considered a moderate unit! They are one of the most powerful flying units available (there is a reason why they are one of the last to get in warcraft three).

Sauron raising undead? And he gets to mess with banshees and shades why?

And how will he beable to stop the spells Deadmeat? Counterspell doesn't seem to occur in LOTRs, though it does occur in WoW, atleast from my perspective. Course I may need to reread the books.

And how can sauron make so many units so quickly Rowan?


1) Frost Wyrms are killed by archers. Sauron has lots of archers.

2) One of Sauron's titles in the Third Age is the Necromancer, implying that he can create and control undead of some sort. The Witch-King also creates undead evil spirits that later become Barrow-Wights. I believe Sauron commanded vampires in the First Age.

3) Sauron stops pretty much all the magic thrown at him throughout history. Only one spell actually works on him, its a sleep spell cast by Luthien, who later puts Morgoth himself asleep, and all it does to him is to make him stagger a bit. Sauron's pretty darn good at stopping magic.

4) Sauron creates soldiers that fast according to the calculus of the last few pages, done by Rowan, EE and myself. Saruman creates an army in about seven months from scratch. Its fairly reasonable that Sauron, being more powerful than Saruman and not working up from scratch, could do it faster than that, so we used a time of about six months (my estimate) to 25 weeks (Rowan's). From there it was a simple matter of assuming a size of 10,000 per army, counting the number of armies, and working it out. While not canon and set in stone, it, at least to me, seems fairly reasonable.

There's a reason that the people of Middle-Earth say they can't achieve a military win here.

edit: that was weird, I thought the browser ate my post and so retyped it. Sorry for making you read this stuff twice...

[Rowanomicon]

WG, your last two posts are almost identical, but differ in wording.
I assume the second was meant to be an edit of the first and you accidentally double-posted (with my post coincidentally ending up in the middle).
I just find it amusing.
I read both copies, however, because I enjoy your writing.

[EvilElitest]

I'm really not sure what exact necromantic powers Sauron has. Zombies and skeletons don't really seem to fit, since there's never any reference to him, or anybody else in Middle Earth, using creatures like that. Wraiths and Wights make more sense to me, particularly since we know that the Witch-King at least can create the evil spirits that animate the Barrow-Wights. What goes into the creation of such a spirit I unfortunately have absolutely no idea, but I think its a safe bet that he can do it.

I agree however that he will be very proficient in messing with the LK's undead, particularly the incorporeal ones like banshees, since those are the sort with which he is most familiar.

we know he can raise wights, wraiths, "evil spirits", at one point spectors/ghosts are mentioned but neve shown as are shades, the "silent watchers" if the yare undead, ninjas and "darrowdark or something spelled like that, a rohan word for some sort of undead. Oh and the phantoms of the dead marches. He and the nazgul can also dominate evil spirits


10, 000 was the number I used for 1 army. Sauron would control many armies.

I was using that number because the timeframe for building/equipping armies was based off of what Saruman did and assuming that Sauron could do it faster.

Oh, that makes more sense

You do know that Saruman has three armies right?
ten thousand uruk-hai
The entire pouplation of the men of Dunland
A mixed force of orc, half orcs, orc men, men orcs, goblin men, men of isengard and wolves
gandalf also describes Ten thousand orcs, but i suspect he was refering to the uruk-hai
however, their was a large orcish army lead by wormtounge that gandalf destroyed before going to helm's deep
As well as a large force of wargs, wolves, and riders of the two
A massive force of Cerbain and crows
a group of ninjas
A small reserve force in isengard proper
And a small force of three hundred half orcs, goblin men and humans that took over the shire

I object to the Frost Wyrms being considered a moderate unit! They are one of the most powerful flying units available (there is a reason why they are one of the last to get in warcraft three).
Fine, they get teh sub catogory of dangerous unit. Not heros, but powerful non the less


Sauron raising undead? And he gets to mess with banshees and shades why?
The WK, who learned his magics from a weakened Sauron created the barrow wights and plenty of lesser wraiths
It is mentioned taht the nazgul can control wraiths, and Sauron evil spirits.


I'm pretty sure that we all agree that Sauron is not raising undead willy nilly. He (and his side) have shown the ability to create undead as well as other connections to necromancy, but the actual creating of undead is fairly rare which leads us to one the following conclusions:
1) They don't like undead very much so choose not to make them very often
2) Making undead is hard
3) Making undead takes a long time
Well there are maybe a thousand barrow wights, many "evil spirts" in Minas morgul and Dul Guldor, as well as thousands upon thousands of undead in the dead marshes. However, i think it takes a very long time to create undead, he he might be able to create a few hundred



Yes, lets not get into a battle of definitions and semanticist again (like in the Voldy thread).
Whatever word you want to use for it Sauron has the ability to stop/destroy the effects of an enemy caster's spells.

EDIT: WG defined the Middle Earth magic system fairly accurately and rather brilliantly
We did, didn't me, though it caused so much pain

we should right our own book


Yes but thats when it gets confusing, if thats how it works for Sauron in this blending then thats how it should work for LK, because if it works for Sauron in the whole blending of universes shouldn't it work for LK, or for things that work in WC work in LOTR universe?
lets not go there, it hurts both sides

I am of the option that magic in ether world effects the other team unless there is a reason why it shouldn't
For example the LK never encountered Haradrim before. However there is not reason why raise dead would not work on a suitable body. Therefore, we must assume it will work
However, we have already shown why it wouldn't work on orcs do to an example in the WOW universe itself
Sauron has been show to have anti magic powers and to counter divine powered attacks. Sauron has not been shown able to create mountains at his will. As we have never seen Sauron create a massive mountain range, we must assume that
a) he can't do that
B) he didn't want to do that
If B, that that must mean Sauron is stupid, because an extra mountain range can always be useful (cutting rohan and gonder off?) So we assume he can't do that.

You see what i mean



Well by that same wrote could the forces of one side learn how to utilize the magic of the other (given enough time to research of course) like Sauron learning how to create zombies and ghouls and LK making things like orcs and corrupting things like Sauron does.
That would makes sense, but two point
1. Lets say Sauron corrupts a relitivlly powerful necromancer who is not undead. He order him to teach him necromancy magic. I assume that Sauron can understand the magic, but would he have to take levels like everybody else, or just learn how to create ghouls automatically being the "Great necromancer"?
2. who would teach the LK magic? Most of Sauron's casters are under wraps.
Same with ring lore


Hey Rowan and WG, how does this thread compare to sauron vs. voldy. i find this one more amusing but i like WOW so (have you been playing that WG, you've made some refernces that i wouldn't expect, but maybe you just did reserch)
from
EE

[warty goblin]

EE, I don't think that Saruman had three armies, rather his army was made of three different contingents of different types of soldier. For one thing if we consider an army to be 10,000 troops, there's no way Saruman could support 30,000 men.

I also like your way of blending worlds, it seems pretty equitable and sensible, as long as we remain sensible and use common sense about crossing abilities over.

On the "can Sauron learn Warcraft necromancy" question, I am remarkably undecided. On the one hand Sauron is a fairly fixed being, if he hasn't done something yet, he probably can't (your mountain argument). On the other hand, since this is a power from another world that Sauron has never been exposed to, and Sauron is a very good sorcerer...Well, whatever we conclude, I think the same logic applies to the LK, if we decide that Sauron can't use Warcraft magic it only seems sensible that the LK can't either, baring some evidence on the matter. Perhaps our other fine posters can shed some light on this issue?

Oh Rowan, thanks for the compliment on my summery/interpretation of LOTR magic. I was rather proud of that one, although the HP magic model goes to you.

So to summerize these last few pages concerning Sauron's military capability:
- He has multiple large armies

- He can generate an army every six months or so minimum, from complete scratch. This means that every time he secures a reasonably large piece of land, within six months it will have its own army. Keeping armies at full orcy strength is going to be a negligable concern.

- His armies are going to be able to move very fast, with orc contingents pushing 70 miles a day for recon. Larger groups, and those containing humans will move more slowly.

- He is able to raise and control at least some manner of undead, likely of the "evil spirit" persuasion. He may also be able to control, or at least challange the LK's control of banshees, although this last bit is something of an interpretation, so more imput is welcome.

[warty goblin]

EE, I don't think that Saruman had three armies, rather his army was made of three different contingents of different types of soldier. For one thing if we consider an army to be 10,000 troops, there's no way Saruman could support 30,000 men.

I also like your way of blending worlds, it seems pretty equitable and sensible, as long as we remain sensible and use common sense about crossing abilities over.

On the "can Sauron learn Warcraft necromancy" question, I am remarkably undecided. On the one hand Sauron is a fairly fixed being, if he hasn't done something yet, he probably can't (your mountain argument). On the other hand, since this is a power from another world that Sauron has never been exposed to, and Sauron is a very good sorcerer...Well, whatever we conclude, I think the same logic applies to the LK, if we decide that Sauron can't use Warcraft magic it only seems sensible that the LK can't either, baring some evidence on the matter. Perhaps our other fine posters can shed some light on this issue?

Oh Rowan, thanks for the compliment on my summery/interpretation of LOTR magic. I was rather proud of that one, although the HP magic model goes to you.

So to summerize these last few pages concerning Sauron's military capability:
- He has multiple large armies

- He can generate an army every six months or so minimum, from complete scratch. This means that every time he secures a reasonably large piece of land, within six months it will have its own army. Keeping armies at full orcy strength is going to be a negligable concern.

- His armies are going to be able to move very fast, with orc contingents pushing 70 miles a day for recon. Larger groups, and those containing humans will move more slowly.

- He is able to raise and control at least some manner of undead, likely of the "evil spirit" persuasion. He may also be able to control, or at least challange the LK's control of banshees, although this last bit is something of an interpretation, so more imput is welcome.

Did I miss anything?

edit: Darn double posting. This forum clearly hates me at the moment. I had all this typed up last night and it ate the post, and this morning it posts it twice...

Comparing this thread to S v. V, I'd say its a little bit flamier, but not a lot. I find it harder to argue well, since I'm not familiar with the Lich King, and I am with Voldemort. And no, I have not been playin WoW, since I personally cannot stand MMOs, no offense to those who do. So yes, I just do my research (easy now that finals are over).

[EvilElitest]

EE, I don't think that Saruman had three armies, rather his army was made of three different contingents of different types of soldier. For one thing if we consider an army to be 10,000 troops, there's no way Saruman could support 30,000 men.

Acually, Gandalf mentions that Saruman has "Ten thousand orcs" and other characters "Ten Thousand Uruk-hai", so i'm going to say those are the same forces. However bear this in mind
The army from Dunland comes from their own country, they just work with Saurman, so they can provide their own forces. It is the majority of the population bear in mind, and they are admittetly starving
The human/half breed army could have been there when Gandalf showed up without his noticing, and Saurman had been importing food from foriegin lands (like hte shire and bree) for a while before the war started. I think the humans were around a while before the war started (Saurman had been gathering them pior to the first attack on Dul Guldor but the point remains that he can create a Uruk-hai in about seven months.

I
also like your way of blending worlds, it seems pretty equitable and sensible, as long as we remain sensible and use common sense about crossing abilities over.

On the "can Sauron learn Warcraft necromancy" question, I am remarkably undecided. On the one hand Sauron is a fairly fixed being, if he hasn't done something yet, he probably can't (your mountain argument). On the other hand, since this is a power from another world that Sauron has never been exposed to, and Sauron is a very good sorcerer...Well, whatever we conclude, I think the same logic applies to the LK, if we decide that Sauron can't use Warcraft magic it only seems sensible that the LK can't either, baring some evidence on the matter. Perhaps our other fine posters can shed some light on this issue?
I never liked the "but magic is different" it is the effect that matters. As for the learning of new magic we can ether have it nether side can every learn the other's magic, or they can if there is a manner for them to do so.


Oh Rowan, thanks for the compliment on my summery/interpretation of LOTR magic. I was rather proud of that one, although the HP magic model goes to you.
that took so long to go through

So to summerize these last few pages concerning Sauron's military capability:
- He has multiple large armies


- He can generate an army every six months or so minimum, from complete scratch. This means that every time he secures a reasonably large piece of land, within six months it will have its own army. Keeping armies at full orcy strength is going to be a negligable concern.

- His armies are going to be able to move very fast, with orc contingents pushing 70 miles a day for recon. Larger groups, and those containing humans will move more slowly.

- He is able to raise and control at least some manner of undead, likely of the "evil spirit" persuasion. He may also be able to control, or at least challange the LK's control of banshees, although this last bit is something of an interpretation, somore imput is welcome.

Just one thing, when Frodo and comp are captured by a Barrow wight, the monster does some sort of evil ceremony, so i think that is how new Barrow wights are created



Comparing this thread to S v. V, I'd say its a little bit flamier, but not a lot. I find it harder to argue well, since I'm not familiar with the Lich King, and I am with Voldemort. And no, I have not been playin WoW, since I personally cannot stand MMOs, no offense to those who do. So yes, I just do my research (easy now that finals are over).

nice to know
from,
EE

[EvilElitest]

hellooooooooooooooo, anybody there?


Anybody


I feel so alone now
from,
EE

[warty goblin]

hellooooooooooooooo, anybody there?


Anybody


I feel so alone now
from,
EE

Apparently the opposition has at least temporarily deserted the thread. Probably scared off by my ever multiplying hordes of orcs...

At what point do we win by default?

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Apparently the opposition has at least temporarily deserted the thread. Probably scared off by my ever multiplying hordes of orcs...

At what point do we win by default?

When I decide that being evil is boring and I would much rather be an angel than a Devil... so "never" seems a fair estimate :smalltongue:

[EvilElitest]

Apparently the opposition has at least temporarily deserted the thread. Probably scared off by my ever multiplying hordes of orcs...

At what point do we win by default?

I thought that my troll ninjas scared them off? Awwwwwwwwwwww

We win by default two pages to by without any of our points get properly countered
from,
EE

[warty goblin]

When I decide that being evil is boring and I would much rather be an angel than a Devil... so "never" seems a fair estimate :smalltongue:

Cool, I was hoping that this thread wouldn't give out quite yet, I need something to distract me from the horror of being stuck at home with the parents and no way to escape for the next four weeks.

So, let's have some pro Lich King points here- or are you deserting and joining the One True Darkness? You'd still get to be evil after all, and there's always opening in Team Sauron. Plus there's cookies. :smallbiggrin:

[EvilElitest]

Cool, I was hoping that this thread wouldn't give out quite yet, I need something to distract me from the horror of being stuck at home with the parents and no way to escape for the next four weeks.

So, let's have some pro Lich King points here- or are you deserting and joining the One True Darkness? You'd still get to be evil after all, and there's always opening in Team Sauron. Plus there's cookies. :smallbiggrin:

Your a cool dude, you start out in the middle circle and hopefully work your way up from there. Me, Rowan, and WG will treat you awfully, but you can treat your lessers just as bad. It is like layer cake, but with cookies:smallbiggrin:

And where is I am Undead, i need somebody to argue with
from,
EE

[Rowanomicon]

We win by default two pages to by without any of our points get properly countered
from,
EE

Wait... does this include my end scenarios theory?

It doesn't really matter. I'm pretty confident that those are the only end scenarios so right now we are simply determining the details of what leads up to those and which one is most likely.

[Artemician]

Making the mistake of thinking that you've won so easily.

I can't speak for the others, but the reason that I've stopped posting is not because I think that your pints are right, but because I'm on vacation and internet access is sporadic. When I get back, then I might have time to rebutt many of the unwarranted assumptions that yuo have made. If I'm not too busy with homwwork, thyat is, but that's another matter for another time

[Selrahc]

Making the mistake of thinking that you've won so easily.

I can't speak for the others, but the reason that I've stopped posting is not because I think that your pints are right, but because I'm on vacation and internet access is sporadic. When I get back, then I might have time to rebutt many of the unwarranted assumptions that yuo have made. If I'm not too busy with homwwork, thyat is, but that's another matter for another time

Thats a big ditto for me too.

But don't go giving yourself a victory. You guys don't seem to have convinced many people at all, since many more people have said they think the Lich King would win. The self congratulaation seems premature at least.

[I_am_an_undead]

I'm not replying because my big french exam is tomorrow, and if I don't pass with flying colors, I'm gonna fail big time, and I don't want that.

[Rowanomicon]

I look forward to a time when you can all can devote more time to post and bring to our attention the things we have missed. I definitely know that between the three of us we have made some mistakes.
However, I more look forward to having the big points revealed to me. The ones that actually affect the outcome of this battle and the ones that rely on evidence and reason rather than personal opinion.

[Selrahc]

Well I've already said my big points. The Lich King has a more numerous, higher quality army. The Lich King has hundreds of powerful commanders with lots of magical power. Saurons defences of Mordor won't be effective because the Lich King can get around them aerially. I don't believe that Sauron can cause a significant enough effect to overcome the giant advantage in armies that the Lich King has. Nothing I have seen on this thread has convinced me away from this.

[EvilElitest]

I'm not replying because my big french exam is tomorrow, and if I don't pass with flying colors, I'm gonna fail big time, and I don't want that.

As somebody who has taken french for three years, i understand, and i fear that laugage. It sounds very pretty, but it so hard to learn
Hey Rowan, it seems me you and WG are like the Big three. So who is Roosevelt, who is Churchill, and who is Stalin?


Well I've already said my big points. The Lich King has a more numerous, higher quality army. The Lich King has hundreds of powerful commanders with lots of magical power. Saurons defences of Mordor won't be effective because the Lich King can get around them aerially. I don't believe that Sauron can cause a significant enough effect to overcome the giant advantage in armies that the Lich King has. Nothing I have seen on this thread has convinced me away from this.

Well, lets break this down

1. The LK has a larger army
True, from what i gather the LK out numbers sauron. But
A) Sauron has a amazing defensible postion
B) Sauron's army can reproduce at a rate far greater than the Lk
C) Sauron's armies are better orginizied
2. The LK has some elite unities, but quiality no (with some exceptions
A) little to know orginiziation
B) No uniformity
C) crappy or simple picked up equipment
D) corruptable
.
E) weaker fodder (orcs beat zombies, Uruk-hai beat ghouls ect)
The Lk does have more elite units i'll give him that
3. LK has more casters
While Sauron does have less casters, his are more powerul and he has anti magic as his disposal, as well as the abilty to corrupt said casters
4. The LK can use aerial forces to destroy mordor
Every single one of this type of attack has been countered, lets break it down
A) all of the LK's Aerial units are able to be brought down by a few score archers, Sauron has thousands on top of massive towers
B) sauron has millions upon millions of crows, bats, Cerbian, giant flies, giant bats, evil birds and other nasty flying creatures
C) Sauron has vampires, Balrogs and dragons, who would simple destory Frost wyrms and gargoyles
D) Sauron has control weather
E) The Nazgul can fly and even if killed they just come back
F) Mount Doom
G) while they won't be aiming for them, stray catapult shot or thrown rock might do
H) most of the flying forces need to get into meele range of orcs to inflict damage, thus they can be attacked
5. sauron has nothing on the LK
Wrong, all i can say
A) far better orginization
B) better equipted armies with an infrastructor
C) trained forces
D) renewable troops
E) better tatics
F) internal strife on the other side
G) the ring
H) troll ninjas)
I) Hard to kill units
J) better defensive postions
K) control of his lands
L) corruption powers)
M) Slave population
N) renewable fortresses
O) extremly hard to destroy fortresses
P) bottle necks (Northrend is kinda of a "just walk right in" sort of place
Q) naval units
R) elite units that aren't heros
S) the nazgul
T) shape shifting
U) forging of weapons and armor
V) inhuman fighting skills
W) Super magic
X) super fear/despair powers on the LK's living servant
Y) The numanorian fleet
Z) the big three

from,
EE

[Selrahc]

To my other points, I've seen your responses, and they leave me far from convinced. And I, and other people have stated our reasoning, and that has obviously failed to convince you. At this point, its just needless repetition.

For the last one though:

5. sauron has nothing on the LK
Wrong, all i can say

Is not what I said, or even close to what I said. Go and actually read what I wrote.

[EvilElitest]

To my other points, I've seen your responses, and they leave me far from convinced. And I, and other people have stated our reasoning, and that has obviously failed to convince you. At this point, its just needless repetition.

Then by all means counter them. Go ahead, take every one of my points a prove why it wouldn't


For the last one though:


Is not what I said, or even close to what I said. Go and actually read what I wrote.

I don't believe that Sauron can cause a significant enough effect to overcome the giant advantage in armies that the Lich King has.

meh, close enough for me
from,
EE

[warty goblin]

I was not gloating. Like I said, I'm hoping that this thread keeps going for another two-three weeks, I was disappointed that it seemed to be quieting down.

Now down to brass tacks. Let's look at the question of soldiery. The Lich King's primary ground forces are skeletons, zombies and ghouls, which are the elite members of his army right? (I'm just talking about the basic units right now, I know about the crypt fiends and the other stuff, let's ignore them for the moment). Now a zombie/skeleton is probably roughly as skilled as an orc in a fight, with a ghoul matching up to an Uruk-hai or corrupted man- if there's contrary evidence to this please inform me.

The clincher in Sauron's favor is this: Skeletons and zombies are completely mindless- they need direction to do anything at all and won't act to support each other. This means that one lucky arrow puts the commanding necromancer out of commission, and their entire force suddenly just keeps doing what it was doing, not a good thing. Orcs might not win awards for their coordinated fighting style, but they are capable of it, which is more than can be said for skeletons/zombies.

Now let's look at the elite grunts: Ghouls are semi- intelligent yes? Then they can attack on their own, but not in a coordinated mannor and will not be able to take advantage of the terrain - is this about right? Uruks are quite skilled melee combatants as well, and more importantly, act as a coordinated and cohesive unit. Even if they are not smart enough on their own to entrap ghouls (which is likely, although a leader could easily be able to order them to do this), they will hold formation and act together against the swarming and individually acting ghouls, allowing them to be destroyed easily and quickly without many loses. The same goes for the Easterlings and Haradrim. Now ghouls directed by a necromancer can be coordinated better (although as always the necromancer remains vulnerable to orcshanking), and here I go to my second point.

Point the Second: Arms and Armor. Zombies and skeletons fight with decomposing and scavanged weapons and armor, ghouls wear no armor and fight with their claws. The maintained and newer orcish and uruk equipment is simply better than this stuff. Swords outreach claws, allowing the uruks' first strike, and parrying with claws is not a good idea. Ghouls are described as being somewhat fragile I believe, meaning that getting smashed around by uruks before they even get a swing off is bad news for them, if not fatal, than likely crippling. The uruks/evil men are coordinated and better equiped, which means that they will be able to soundly defeat an equal number of ghouls fairly easily, even if the ghouls are directed by necromancers.

Point the Third: Cavalry. As far as I know, excepting Deathknights, the LK doesn't feature lots of cavalry- again correct me if I'm wrong. Sauron is not a god of cavalry by any means, but he at least has some, and its going to be his elite force, namely Haradrim and Southrons, and warg riders. Now a direct cavalry charge will be of little avail against mass undead, simply because the undead aren't afraid and so won't get out of the way, meaning the charge becomes mired in the enemy lines and cut to pieces. But ghouls are stupid, likely to attack whatever they see, and easy to lure out of position. An uncoordinated mass of spread out charging ghouls is ripe for riding into the dirt. Cavalry also aids the assassination of key battlefield commanders, namely the necromancers commanding the undead hordes, who would be forced to hold a large number of their undead back for protection, or join the assault themselves to avoid being killed off. Again, the LK may posess some counter to this of which I am unaware. Please enlighten me if this is the case, I do my best to research him, but there's a lot of stuff and its quite possible I missed something.

[EvilElitest]

I was not gloating. Like I said, I'm hoping that this thread keeps going for another two-three weeks, I was disappointed that it seemed to be quieting down.

I am to, this is getting boring, if this dies me and WG/Rowan will have to make a new interesting thread


Now down to brass tacks. Let's look at the question of soldiery. The Lich King's primary ground forces are skeletons, zombies and ghouls, which are the elite members of his army right? (I'm just talking about the basic units right now, I know about the crypt fiends and the other stuff, let's ignore them for the moment). Now a zombie/skeleton is probably roughly as skilled as an orc in a fight, with a ghoul matching up to an Uruk-hai or corrupted man- if there's contrary evidence to this please inform me.

Not quite
Skeletons and zombies are a lot like the are in D&D accually. There is a type of greater skeleton called Risen who are intelligent but other than that. So orcs are accually better than the normal skeleton and zombie, a good deal so if they are unarmed. Also orcs can be archers, and armor. Zombie and skeletons are crap, the latter not quite as much. Also there are many kind of orcs
Ghouls are also pretty crappy, i'd say maybe 1 uruk-hai fully armored=three normal ghouls. But none of these guys are elites, they are foot troops
Sauron's human forces are his elites, they are much better than any of the other mentioned creatures


The clincher in Sauron's favor is this: Skeletons and zombies are completely mindless- they need direction to do anything at all and won't act to support each other. This means that one lucky arrow puts the commanding necromancer out of commission, and their entire force suddenly just keeps doing what it was doing, not a good thing. Orcs might not win awards for their coordinated fighting style, but they are capable of it, which is more than can be said for skeletons/zombies.
Also even when controlled the are awkward and clumsy.



Now let's look at the elite grunts: Ghouls are semi- intelligent yes? Then they can attack on their own, but not in a coordinated mannor and will not be able to take advantage of the terrain - is this about right? Uruks are quite skilled melee combatants as well, and more importantly, act as a coordinated and cohesive unit. Even if they are not smart enough on their own to entrap ghouls (which is likely, although a leader could easily be able to order them to do this), they will hold formation and act together against the swarming and individually acting ghouls, allowing them to be destroyed easily and quickly without many loses. The same goes for the Easterlings and Haradrim. Now ghouls directed by a necromancer can be coordinated better (although as always the necromancer remains vulnerable to orcshanking), and here I go to my second point.
ghouls are semi intellegent, but are unable to act based on their intellegence except to feed i believe.

other than that your right
from,
EE

[Selrahc]

Then by all means counter them. Go ahead, take every one of my points a prove why it wouldn't

Ah, the same way you have proved all your points?

Hint: you haven't. You haven't proved that what you say is true, because it is all opinion and conjecture. It has failed to convince me, just as the arguments on the side of the people arguing for Warcraft fail to convince you.

You are part of a group that was formed solely to defend sauron in versus threads. The odds of convincing you of this issue are astronomically small, because you are a biased party. You guys seem really proud of the Anti Sauron Defamation League and all, but it makes it hard for me to believe you'll actually take a real look at the evidence, if you're in a fricking cult of Sauron!

So yeah, I don't want to get into mindless repetition, of unprovable opinions against an opponent who is impossible to convince.



meh, close enough for me

You really don't see the difference between those two statements? You've turned the statement from "Sauron does not have enough advantages to win", to "Sauron has no advantages whatsoever". One is a reasonable and defensible position, the other is not.

EDIT: Warty Goblin, that was a perfectly reasonable post. And it didn't annoy me like EE's did. But I still think this is all just repetition on the same basic theme.

[Rowanomicon]

One should note that at the beginning of this thread my posts were few and far between. This is because I did not have enough information to truly decide who would win. I posted what information I could as well as my initial opinions (far from even theories) to be helpful (and because I enjoyed it).

Once I got some more information I reasoned out the possible end scenarios (which then got refined into a smaller and somewhat changed list).

I'm not going to tell you that I don't love Tolkien's writing, but I did take more into account than my love of great literature.
If you proved, with evidence and reason, that there was another possible end scenario I would openly accept it as a possibility. From there we could determine it's likelihood.

"I disagree" and "I'm not convinced" are valid statements, but do not prove anything (for either side). If we were going to abandon this thread as soon as some disagreement cam up then there wasn't much point in starting it.

The "cult of Sauron" is message board silliness (at least on my part) and nothing more. The "SSSAAAUUURRROOONNN!!!" is an adaptation of the "debate" techniques used on a segment The Daily Show used to run called Even Stephens (very funny, I suggest it to anyone and everyone, you can find it's free on the comedycentral website).
We do not actually worship Sauron and I, for one, am quite open to hearing reasonable arguments for either side.

You say Sauron is outnumbered, but you do not counter the theory that he can create troops at an alarming rate.
Nor do you counter that he can conscript some of LK's troops/casters.
Unless LK is finishing this very quickly the number will end up stacked against him.

Even if LK dominates Sauron's force The Ring would turn LK into Sauron's servant. This has been countered with arguments such as "he already has an artifact bound to him" which seems to me to have very little relevance as said artifact doesn't (to my knowledge) have any anti-Ring powers.

You say Sauron's troops are outclassed, but Sauron's basics are superior (and growing faster in number) than LK's.
Sauron is disrupting much of LK's troop's magic.*
Sauron is steeling LK's casters etc.
The Nazgul simply come back after dying.
The Witch King is literally (I'd accept virtually) untouchable (not because of the discounted prophecy, because of the enchantments that require specific magic to overcome).

Now, tell me I'm an unreasonable fanboy who doesn't back my points and hasn;t properly countered yours.

*Do LK's necromancer's control the undead's tactics through magic, if so, they're not once they get to the borders of Mordor.

[EvilElitest]

Ah, the same way you have proved all your points?

Backing the up, providing evidence, and proving my points based upon facts. If you find my points incorrect, then by all means i implore you come out and prove it. Use the power of your mighty and apperently (I hope) well founded logic and serve the head of my points, then hold it out for all to see the false liar it was. Prove the guilty of all the sins of men, adultery, traitor, coward, liar, and thief, prove my points are but nothing compared to your harsh light of truth then, if you are so confident. For after all, if my points are so well founded, then such a well educated and unintelligent beings such as you would have no problem destroying my points in a logical and decisive manner. But until then, i stand by what i said, and any attempt to accuse me of being a liar will seem to me an ideal taunt, a failed attempt to insult me. If you wish to prove me wrong, then do it. I'm asking you to do, so go ahead.


Hint: you haven't. You haven't proved that what you say is true, because it is all opinion and conjecture. It has failed to convince me, just as the arguments on the side of the people arguing for Warcraft fail to convince you.

Options and conjecture have nothing to do with it, my arguments are based on facts. Prove me wrong if you wish, but i find truth in the facts of the matter.


You are part of a group that was formed solely to defend sauron in versus threads.
And now one of my favorite words comes into use

Liar

blatant liar

liar, liar, and oh my gods, liar


I argue vs. threads not out of fanboy obsession, i would not have lasted so long, my points would have torn to shreds. I didn't form any group, me rowan and WG simple love to argue on vs. thread. Multiple times in other thread i have admitted that Sauron can lose. Multiple times I have responded to this statement and every time the accuser simple slinks away. Well, i tell you this. I have never, and i will never argue for a person simple because i like them better. I always do, always have, and always will based my argument on logical conclusions. Hell, if you go to page one on this thread i am talking about the LK's strong points. This is simple nothing that has convinced me that the LK could win, though i conceded on quite a few points. Unlike some, i respond to every point i see, if you find a point i never addressed bring it up and i will do so. Counter any of my points and i will defend it, with any amount of evidence i find. Name a source and i will find it, or ask somebody with the book to find it (we all love walking target). But simple pointing at me and saying "your just arguing because you like Sauron better" is cowardly and frankly untrue. Now will you stand up, argue properly like the respectable and understanding person you are, or will you resort to such cheap tricks.

I say it now, as i have said before when accused of this, i have never nor will ever argue for somebody without facts to back it up. I have never argued a point that i didn't believe (unless i'm playing the devil advocate and in that case i will tell you first) and i never will. Should any come forth to prove me wrong, i will admit defeat and back off. But unless you counter my points, unless you argue and try to win this argument that you are simple wasting my time.



The odds of convincing you of this issue are astronomically small, because you are a biased party. You guys seem really proud of the Anti Sauron Defamation League and all, but it makes it hard for me to believe you'll actually take a real look at the evidence, if you're in a fricking cult of Sauron!

1. Comedy, ever heard of it, it does wonders
2. Then show me the "mistakes" in my evidence. I beg of you, show my "bias"
3. I've argued against Sauron on some thread already. Mind you, none of them were very interesting, but i can admit when he is defeated (Cthulu anyone?)



So yeah, I don't want to get into mindless repetition, of unprovable opinions against an opponent who is impossible to convince.

Accualy, had you have never countered these points at allit wouldn't be repetition, just you not standing up for you logical conclusion on who would win.


You really don't see the difference between those two statements? You've turned the statement from "Sauron does not have enough advantages to win", to "Sauron has no advantages whatsoever". One is a reasonable and defensible position, the other is not.
I'm sorry, i mean to say that my response works for both.


EDIT: Warty Goblin, that was a perfectly reasonable post. And it didn't annoy me like EE's did. But I still think this is all just repetition on the same basic theme.
Then respond. Prove me wrong. Because to me it seems like your giving up and that saddens me greatly. Because i am always willing to arguing with a logical individual, and when that person doesn't attempt to argue his points but doesn't seem to admit defeat. Ether fight back or roll over, i'm sorry, but without respond to my points this just comes off as nothing important to me
with all due respect
EE

edit


*Do LK's necromancer's control the undead's tactics through magic, if so, they're not once they get to the borders of Mordor



ummmm, yes actually, death magic. I never though of that. But is it the borders of mordor or just near Sauron himself? But really, good point

[warty goblin]

Ah, the same way you have proved all your points?

Hint: you haven't. You haven't proved that what you say is true, because it is all opinion and conjecture. It has failed to convince me, just as the arguments on the side of the people arguing for Warcraft fail to convince you.

You are part of a group that was formed solely to defend sauron in versus threads. The odds of convincing you of this issue are astronomically small, because you are a biased party. You guys seem really proud of the Anti Sauron Defamation League and all, but it makes it hard for me to believe you'll actually take a real look at the evidence, if you're in a fricking cult of Sauron!

So yeah, I don't want to get into mindless repetition, of unprovable opinions against an opponent who is impossible to convince.



You really don't see the difference between those two statements? You've turned the statement from "Sauron does not have enough advantages to win", to "Sauron has no advantages whatsoever". One is a reasonable and defensible position, the other is not.

EDIT: Warty Goblin, that was a perfectly reasonable post. And it didn't annoy me like EE's did. But I still think this is all just repetition on the same basic theme.

Thank you, I do try to be reasonable about these debates. I am doing this after all to have fun, and find flame wars remarkably unfun.

And I'm with Rowan, ASDAL is a fun bit of silliness, but I'm not unconvincable, or at least I try not to be. I concede that the LK can probably resist falling into Sauron's control through the Ring, although desire for the Ring might still cause him to do stupid things. I concede that the LK's army probably outnumbers Sauron's, and I concede that he has more mid-range elite troops ala crypt lords and banshees. All of these are disadvantages of Sauron's position.

At the same time however I see that the LK has his own disadvantages. He is not a brilliant tactician or strategist. He has poor infastructure and cannot generate armies with the rapidity of Sauron. He also probably does not control as much territory as Sauron, who at his greatest controlled basically all of Middle-Earth, although since we never really decided what time period we were looking at for Sauron, I'm not sure how relevant this is.

The difference that I see is that Sauron's weaknesses can be overcome by his strengths. Smaller numbers can be used very well by a good tactician and strategist, which Sauron is. Clearly he'd be better with a larger army, but he can compensate for this deficiency. His massive industrial capacity allows him to maintain his army at its current size relatively indefinately, and most likely grow it in the bargain if he needs to. His lack of magical support can be compensated by his ability to corrupt enemy spellcasters, which by dint of being necromancers to begin with are hardly immune to corruption.

As far as I can tell however, the Lich King's weaknesses are far harder to cover with his strengths. His greatest strength is that he has a massive army, but his tendancy to spread it out and poor strategic ability render this one far less useful, although obviously he's better off with a larger army than a small one. His troops don't act well together, which further weakens him tactically. Although he starts with a massive army, he will almost certainly take heavy loses, particularly given his habit of spreading his armies out, which will be hard for him to recover from.

That's why I think that Sauron would win, he's smarter and he has greater durability. A sufficiently brilliant being commanding the Lich King's forces could win I think, somebody like Ender Wiggen perhaps, but not the Lich King.

[Rowanomicon]

Don't have much time no (even to read the posts since my last one), but I apologise now for my previous snark.

[Artemician]

I don`t really have a lot of time to really go through arguments and whatnot, so I`ll just be asking questions to fill in gaps in my knowledge, and to clarify if what I think is right. LOTR buffs, gimme a hand, kay?

1a) When Sauron corrupted the Numenoreans, he then built a gigantic fleet of ships, and sailed to Asdar itself to attack the Maiar, yes?
1b) And the Maiar tried and failed to halt them, which resulted in Sauron carving a huge path right through the countryside, yes?
1c) And they were only stopped when Eru himself intervened?
1d) And Eru was so pissed and shocked at this, that he created a barrier between Asdar and Middle Earth just to keep the men out?

2a) Sauron was not the only Maiar in Morgoth`s camp, was he? If I recall correctly, there were others, like the Balrogs and Gothmog. Am I correct?
2b) And Sauron was Morgoth`s lieautenant because he was the biggest baddest Maiar of the camp in general, right?

3a) After Morgoth expended his divine power to sculpt Asdar, he was left severely weakened, correct?
3b) To the point where he succumbed to a spell that his lieatenant Sauron could shrug off.
3c) By that corollary, wouldn:t that make Sauron stronger than Morgoth?
3d) If so, why did Sauron not dominate/overthrow Morgoth, given that you`ve been going on about how well Sauron can do that?

4a) Dragons and Balrogs are basically fallen Maiar as well, yes?
4b) And they threw away their immortality to pursue a mortal form? Why would they do that, if it would make them vulnerable to slaying?

5a) You`ve talked about Sauron`s magic-suppression aura, or words to that effect. I would like more information on this.
5b) We do know that magic items are suppressed. BUt I need more information. What was the flask of Galadriel, exactly? It was made by Luthien or something?
5c) Also, EE brought up something where he says Gandalf could not cast spells while inside Dol Guldur, or at the Black Gates. Can I have a direct quote on that?

6a) Does anyone know what the heck the Watcher at the Gates was?
6b) And why Sauron didn`t know anything was amiss when the Watcher hopped the twig?

7) What is the nature of the Nazgul fell beast thingies? We know that they can be slain by a single arrow, but that`s all we know. More information plz.

That`s about all the questiosn I have for now. HELP! :smallcool:

[Anteros]

Magic in Azeroth is much much more powerful than what you'd find in middle earth. I mean, the greatest artifacts we ever see in middle earth are what? A ring that corrupts people? A glorified flashlight? In comparison, Azeroth's magic is very much more common, and very much more powerful. Sauron himself is probably more powerful than any being on Azeroth, but the general power of Azeroth is going to mean that they win.

Think about it. What's the greatest spell we ever see Gandalf use? Light? And he us supposed to be one of the most powerful magic users of Middle earth. Comparatively in WoW you have level one characters with more impressive magic than this, and epic level characters who are on a completely different plane.

To break it down
In an arena death match: Sauron probably wins.
In a war: Lich king certainly wins due to the sheer power difference in magic.

[Artemician]

Magic in Azeroth is much much more powerful than what you'd find in middle earth. I mean, the greatest artifacts we ever see in middle earth are what? A ring that corrupts people? A glorified flashlight? In comparison, Azeroth's magic is very much more common, and very much more powerful. Sauron himself is probably more powerful than any being on Azeroth, but the general power of Azeroth is going to mean that they win.

Think about it. What's the greatest spell we ever see Gandalf use? Light? And he us supposed to be one of the most powerful magic users of Middle earth. Comparatively in WoW you have level one characters with more impressive magic than this, and epic level characters who are on a completely different plane.

To break it down
In an arena death match: Sauron probably wins.
In a war: Lich king certainly wins due to the sheer power difference in magic.

I'm opposed to Sauron winning, but I feel that this is a drastic oversimplification.

From what I have gleaned in these sort of vs threads.. ME magic is more subtle and less flashy than Azeroth magic. And more importantly, it has huge costs for the user, such as revealing your presence to dangerous people in the vicinity. It is also a much rarer thing, ME is a very low magic setting, while Azeroth is comparitively high magic.

But - even if ME magic were indeed absolutely horrible (which it isn't, it's just more low-key), it doesn't matter in the context of this thread. THis thread isn't Azeroth vs ME, its Ner'zhul vs Sauron. Which means that the world enviroment is redundant, only the individual powers of the fighters are important.

[konfeta]

But - even if ME magic were indeed absolutely horrible (which it isn't, it's just more low-key), it doesn't matter in the context of this thread. THis thread isn't Azeroth vs ME, its Ner'zhul vs Sauron. Which means that the world enviroment is redundant, only the individual powers of the fighters are important.

And this is exactly why this thread fails. The individual powers of these fighters are defined by their enviroments. Those who argue in this thread, again and again, fail to establish an enviroment that fairly retains elements of both.

The Lich King is stated to be, in his universe, a terrifying being that single handingly masterminded the catastrophic failure of its creators' invasion plans while carrying out their pet project of wiping out one of the two greatest human kingdoms in the land as well as performing a nearly complete genocide of the race of the most powerful arcane magic practitioners of Azeroth. Prior to all of this, before he was turned into his Icecube form, he handled magics that essentially ripped a planet to shreds.

And, before he even incorporated Lordaeron into his Scourge - he created an army from the population of Northrend. Starting with attracting/dominating various evil creatures to his side; turning entire human population of Northrend into beginings of the Scourge through his will and necromantic powers alone (check WC3 manual; backstory for the Scourge); using the said army (which EE and other supporters in this thread, according to their "established and agreed on rules", would be composed of nothing but pathetic rabble) to wipe out the most ancient standing civilization in Warcraft (Nerubians and their insectoid ancestors are FAR older then Night Elves) and then incorporating a good portion (if not most) of the remnants into his permanent army.



Now tell me, I just laid out some of his general achievements in his enviroment.

It relies on...

Warcraft definition and rulesets of Necromancy, Plagues, Arcane/Demonic Magic, undefined strength of will, incredibly vague descriptions (just how strong was the Nerubian Empire for example? How much energy is required to rip a world apart? How the hell does a caster handle that said energy, even with artifacts while staying alive? Why can he infect and zombify an area equivilent to an entire continent through his will and magic prowess alone, but cannot do the same to other places?)

All of which disappear (and they are practically define the basis and level of his power) if you just take his forces and pit them against a completely different foe then he fought in a completely different setting.


The result of such enviroment shifting is obvious -
1. Proponents of both sides cherry pick descriptions from FOUR vastly different sources - Warcraft games PRE-WoW, WoW, various background lore, and Warcraft RPG. Both sides cherry pick and interprit statements based on WHO they want to win, not actually trying to make things fair.

2. Proponents of both sides pick the same objects/rule/event, declare their intrepritation as accepted fact, and bash the other side of telling them they are wrong (and both sides, as far as I am familiar with the lore of both universes, are just bordering on disrespectful level of inaccuraccy).

Examples - Death Knights, Scourge's Organization, Lich King's Magic Prowess, Results of Interaction of Two Systems of Magic (One side can state, simply from what I showed as an example earlier in this post that the Lich King holds absolute power over his undead; the Sauron side says - "Nuh Uh! GREAT NECROMANCER, WIGHTS, WITCH KING = Sauron can plot device Lich King's Army into sucking!"; Lich King side says - "Nuh Uh! Wrong"; repeat ad infinitum), Frost Whryms, Sauron's ability to Corrupt aspects of Lich King's army, Orcs succeptability to undeath (speaking of which; if Nerubians were described as evil in a can and immune to Lich King's plague, but he now has a nice pool of undead Nerubians of all types to draw from, how the hell do orcs become "conclusively immune to Lich King's necromancy?") the list grows impossibly long.


Christ, I am drawing myself into this argument. Look, my point is - when one side is described "BBQ EVIL, ALL OTHER EVIL IS THIS EVIL'S BITCH" and the other side is described "BBQ EVIL, THIS GUY IS PURE PWNAGE IN A MAN'S FORM"; it all results in fanboi bashing. Get a breath of fresh air, take a look at all the drivel so far in this post, and realize that you are arbitarily assigning "advantage-disadvantage" to whatever you feel like without a systematic approach to the labeling.

I.E. - This is the entire thread in a sentence - My DAD is a FIREMAN and can beat up YOUR DAD who is only an ASTRONAUT.

[Artemician]

Christ, I am drawing myself into this argument. Look, my point is - when one side is described "BBQ EVIL, ALL OTHER EVIL IS THIS EVIL'S BITCH" and the other side is described "BBQ EVIL, THIS GUY IS PURE PWNAGE IN A MAN'S FORM"; it all results in fanboi bashing. Get a breath of fresh air, take a look at all the drivel so far in this post, and realize that you are arbitarily assigning "advantage-disadvantage" to whatever you feel like without a systematic approach to the labeling.

I.E. - This is the entire thread in a sentence - My DAD is a FIREMAN and can beat up YOUR DAD who is only an ASTRONAUT.

That:s the whole point of a versus thread, matey. It`s silly and all, and we know it`s silly, but it`s silly in a fun way. The point of a Versus thread isn`t actually to *win*, it`s to have fun while arguing, as well as learn more about the respective universes that the thread takes place in. It`s.. well.. you`re debating with random strangers on an anonymous forum about 2 fictional characters. If anyone takes it seriously, then I seriously want to question his sanity.

That doesn`t exscuse using faulty logic, or anything, but the thing is that noone really cares if Sauron or the Lich King wins. We just try to practise our argumentative skills.

Now, as to your point about how the setting defines the characters+

The setting tells us stuff about the character`s　powers, and his abilities, his resources, and his general level. We use the events that happen in the setting, the Kings and the Dates, in order to get an idea of how powerful the character was. you appear to have misunderstood my point, I`m not saying that the setting is unimportant. It`s not, because that`s all we can base our arguments on.

Basically, what I was saying was - let me rephrase it, in hindsight, it was a bit vague.

If you put say, some other characters versus each other - say, Naruto versus Inuyasha. Inuyasha`s universe has demons, while Naruto`s universe is populated with Ninjas. It does not, however, make any difference in a versus thread, since we have to compare by absolute power, not relative power. We can say that Inuyasha is at power level X because he did Z in his setting. However, we cannot say that he wins automatically because Magic is more prevalent in his universe, and that the average demon would crush a ninja.

==================

HOWEVER! Your point is still a very good one. We have to work out a common premise for discussion, we`ve been skirting around that issue for far too long.

[Rowanomicon]

Konfeta, I'm sorry you don't like Vs Threads.

[EvilElitest]

I don`t really have a lot of time to really go through arguments and whatnot, so I`ll just be asking questions to fill in gaps in my knowledge, and to clarify if what I think is right. LOTR buffs, gimme a hand, kay?

sure

1a) When Sauron corrupted the Numenoreans, he then built a gigantic fleet of ships, and sailed to Asdar itself to attack the Maiar, yes?
1b) And the Maiar tried and failed to halt them, which resulted in Sauron carving a huge path right through the countryside, yes?
1c) And they were only stopped when Eru himself intervened?
1d) And Eru was so pissed and shocked at this, that he created a barrier between Asdar and Middle Earth just to keep the men out?

1a- to attack the valar, they are greater than the maiar. sauron is the grestest Maiar but hte valar are the super gods
1b- Not quick, if the you thinking of the Valar's attack on Morgoth in the war of the wrath. If the valar wanted to use their own power to destroy the numenoreans they would have damaged the land scape it self
1c) the valar gave up their postion as gods of the world yes
1d) pretty much yeah


2a) Sauron was not the only Maiar in Morgoth`s camp, was he? If I recall correctly, there were others, like the Balrogs and Gothmog. Am I correct?
2b) And Sauron was Morgoth`s lieautenant because he was the biggest baddest Maiar of the camp in general, right?

1a)yep
1B) second greatest evil yep


3a) After Morgoth expended his divine power to sculpt Asdar, he was left severely weakened, correct?
3b) To the point where he succumbed to a spell that his lieatenant Sauron could shrug off.
3c) By that corollary, wouldn:t that make Sauron stronger than Morgoth?
3d) If so, why did Sauron not dominate/overthrow Morgoth, given that you`ve been going on about how well Sauron can do that?

3a) Very much so, and only got weaker the more he created
3b) yes
3C) Sauron at full power morgoth at hte end yes
3d) ah, but here is the trick, Sauron was honestly very loyal to morgoth. He, unlike most of Morgoth's servents wasn't ruled by fear or by corruption but out of loyalty. Remember, even after Morgoth is gone saruon often honors him. Sauron wants total order in the world and belived that Morgoth was the one to give it to him


4a) Dragons and Balrogs are basically fallen Maiar as well, yes?
4b) And they threw away their immortality to pursue a mortal form? Why would they do that, if it would make them vulnerable to slaying?

4a) not dragons, they are twisted evil creatures created by the dark powers like orcs
4B) because they gained greater power in exchange for their immortality, they were only simple fire spirits pior to their corruption


5a) You`ve talked about Sauron`s magic-suppression aura, or words to that effect. I would like more information on this.
In Mount doom it says that this was Sauron's domain and no other powers could work here.


5b) We do know that magic items are suppressed. BUt I need more information. What was the flask of Galadriel, exactly? It was made by Luthien or something?
It was made from the light of the valar.


5c) Also, EE brought up something where he says Gandalf could not cast spells while inside Dol Guldur, or at the Black Gates. Can I have a direct quote on that?
I'll get back to you when i get my books


6a) Does anyone know what the heck the Watcher at the Gates was?
6b) And why Sauron didn`t know anything was amiss when the Watcher hopped the twig?

6a- It was a kraken like beast, one of the dark creatures created by Morgoth that slipped into moria.
6b- I don't understand the question


7) What is the nature of the Nazgul fell beast thingies? We know that they can be slain by a single arrow, but that`s all we know. More information plz.

They are really large monsters created by morgoth long ago (older than dragons) but tamed by Sauron. They eat orc meat and serve as steeds for the nazgul. They like their masters can make people feel terror and have a foul stench that an cripple the livings will to move (not very useful against undead). the are scaled and armored but mortal, and i think they are around 24 feet long. They are really really really fast. Legolas is one of the greatest bow men in the world was able to shoot one down most likely by hitting it in the neck, eye or heart or some other vital place, while Eowyn cut off another's head


That`s about all the questiosn I have for now. HELP! :smallcool:
NP glad to help
from,
EE

[EvilElitest]

And this is exactly why this thread fails. The individual powers of these fighters are defined by their enviroments. Those who argue in this thread, again and again, fail to establish an enviroment that fairly retains elements of both.

Their is still the matter of Power of each person however If we had LK vs. Gollum, even in Gollum own enviroment with hte one ring i really don't think he could win, simple because the LK is so much more powerful.


The Lich King is stated to be, in his universe, a terrifying being that single handingly masterminded the catastrophic failure of its creators' invasion plans while carrying out their pet project of wiping out one of the two greatest human kingdoms in the land as well as performing a nearly complete genocide of the race of the most powerful arcane magic practitioners of Azeroth. Prior to all of this, before he was turned into his Icecube form, he handled magics that essentially ripped a planet to shreds.

we know this, but in his own world Sauron has pulled off other super big deeds of evil equal or more often greater in size.


And, before he even incorporated Lordaeron into his Scourge - he created an army from the population of Northrend. Starting with attracting/dominating various evil creatures to his side; turning entire human population of Northrend into beginings of the Scourge through his will and necromantic powers alone
His necromantic powers are limited, and we have no idea of the scourges numbers (all that is said is hundreds of thousands, i'm thinking around 900,000, maybe more? Not a million certainly)


using the said army (which EE and other supporters in this thread, according to their "established and agreed on rules", would be composed of nothing but pathetic rabble)
Actually, we've proven quite well why they are a rabble, lack of orginization, tendency to resort to swarm tatics, not unification, crappy equipment ect.

to wipe out the most ancient standing civilization in Warcraft (Nerubians and their insectoid ancestors are FAR older then Night Elves) and then incorporating a good portion (if not most) of the remnants into his permanent army.
And Sauron destroy one of the greatest elven kindoms on earth through miltary might and THE greatest human human kingdom on earth by being a fast talker


Now tell me, I just laid out some of his general achievements in his enviroment.

It relies on..
Alright...


Warcraft definition and rulesets of Necromancy, Plagues, Arcane/Demonic Magic, undefined strength of will, incredibly vague descriptions
We've been pointing out how vauge these are an going by assumption this whole time, any new insight?


(just how strong was the Nerubian Empire for example?
No idea, nor does the LK side have any idea ether


All of which disappear (and they are practically define the basis and level of his power) if you just take his forces and pit them against a completely different foe then he fought in a completely different setting.

no, we have already established, all magical powers work the same unless their is a reason why it wouldn't.

The result of such enviroment shifting is obvious -
1. Proponents of both sides cherry pick descriptions from FOUR vastly different sources - Warcraft games PRE-WoW, WoW, various background lore, and Warcraft RPG. Both sides cherry pick and interprit statements based on WHO they want to win, not actually trying to make things fair.

hey, i have no idea which one is cannon. Unless you can produce me a list of what is cannon and what is not, i think they all are


2. Proponents of both sides pick the same objects/rule/event, declare their intrepritation as accepted fact, and bash the other side of telling them they are wrong (and both sides, as far as I am familiar with the lore of both universes, are just bordering on disrespectful level of inaccuraccy).

If someone declares the interpatatin as a fact, then somebody else could try to prove them wrong, but hasn't happened.


Examples - Death Knights,
what about them?


Scourge's Organization,
No we provided lots of evidence for that one


Lich King's Magic Prowess,
Lots of evidence


Results of Interaction of Two Systems of Magic
been established


(One side can state, simply from what I showed as an example earlier in this post that the Lich King holds absolute power over his undead; the Sauron side says - "Nuh Uh! GREAT NECROMANCER, WIGHTS, WITCH KING = Sauron can plot device Lich King's Army into sucking!"
oh, somebody is bitter
Actually, we know Sauron can control wraiths and other evil spirits for being the great necromancer. And the LK does not hold absolute power over his undead, Forsaken

Frost Whryms,
what about them?


Sauron's ability to Corrupt aspects of Lich King's army,
evidence, lots of it


Orcs succeptability to undeath (speaking of which; if Nerubians were described as evil in a can and immune to Lich King's plague, but he now has a nice pool of undead Nerubians of all types to draw from, how the hell do orcs become "conclusively immune to Lich King's necromancy?")
I was using the eastern Plague lands centaurs are an example not the Nerubians.


Christ, I am drawing myself into this argument. Look, my point is - when one side is described "BBQ EVIL, ALL OTHER EVIL IS THIS EVIL'S BITCH" and the other side is described "BBQ EVIL, THIS GUY IS PURE PWNAGE IN A MAN'S FORM"; it all results in fanboi bashing. Get a breath of fresh air, take a look at all the drivel so far in this post, and realize that you are arbitarily assigning "advantage-disadvantage" to whatever you feel like without a systematic approach to the labeling.
Isn't what you doing is "I list a bunch of things i don't like, don't bother to back them up, yell at you and expect you to listen to my unbacked ponts"
Cute



I.E. - This is the entire thread in a sentence - My DAD is a FIREMAN and can beat up YOUR DAD who is only an ASTRONAUT.
Yes yes, you don't like vs. threads, don't read them, nice solution eh?
but i will agree on this

HOWEVER! Your point is still a very good one. We have to work out a common premise for discussion, we`ve been skirting around that issue for far too long.

seconded, i've been arguing for this for about ten pages now

from,
EE

[Rowanomicon]

That:s the whole point of a versus thread, matey. It`s silly and all, and we know it`s silly, but it`s silly in a fun way. The point of a Versus thread isn`t actually to *win*, it`s to have fun while arguing, as well as learn more about the respective universes that the thread takes place in. It`s.. well.. you`re debating with random strangers on an anonymous forum about 2 fictional characters. If anyone takes it seriously, then I seriously want to question his sanity.

That doesn`t exscuse using faulty logic, or anything, but the thing is that noone really cares if Sauron or the Lich King wins. We just try to practise our argumentative skills.

HOWEVER! Your point is still a very good one. We have to work out a common premise for discussion, we`ve been skirting around that issue for far too long.

Quoted for truth.

The problem is that some people do care and then refuse to use/see reason or evidence when it contradicts their preconceived ideas.

I admit openly that I imagine Sauron to be more powerful than we know that he is. It makes it a better story for me to have the evil defeated be greater. If there's someone I can assume/interpret that he's more fearsome, I do.

However, as you said, these threads are about debating skills and having fun, so I leave those preconceived ideas behind when I for my points.

Anyway, my second to last post still stands (though I did/do retract the rudeness of the tone; I was tired and already frustrated; not a good state to debate in).

[EvilElitest]

did we win? Anyone pro LK folks, come out and play. We won't bite, well if we do i got my shots:smallwink: (and scars from stupid attempts)

Really, have we won? Can my points be countered please?
from,
EE

[Rowanomicon]

EE, Sauron won when I proved that every outcome either ends with LK serving Sauron or dying (merging was decided to be so unlikely that it was discounted).

OK, maybe "prove" is the wrong word, but I was never properly countered (on anything except the merging).

[EvilElitest]

EE, Sauron won when I proved that every outcome either ends with LK serving Sauron or dying (merging was decided to be so unlikely that it was discounted).

OK, maybe "prove" is the wrong word, but I was never properly countered (on anything except the merging).

I disliked that argument, not out of any flaw but it is not my style. But it seem you have been proven right, as i have seen nothing to the contrary
from,
EE

[Oslecamo]

EE, Sauron won when I proved that every outcome either ends with LK serving Sauron or dying (merging was decided to be so unlikely that it was discounted).

OK, maybe "prove" is the wrong word, but I was never properly countered (on anything except the merging).

Lich King is owned by Blizzard. Wich means that if he's too powerfull he is nerfed untill he's weak enough to be defeated.

Sauron, on the other hand, is the kind of villain who actully manages to spread death and destruction. And since Lich King can't pick up items, being a top villain from warcraft, he has no way to get the ring, Sauron's only weakness.

So Sauron wins.

[EvilElitest]

Lich King is owned by Blizzard. Wich means that if he's too powerfull he is nerfed untill he's weak enough to be defeated.

Sauron, on the other hand, is the kind of villain who actully manages to spread death and destruction. And since Lich King can't pick up items, being a top villain from warcraft, he has no way to get the ring, Sauron's only weakness.

So Sauron wins.

Wow, that just destroyed the LK from the inside. I wish i thought of that ten pages ago

From,
EE
Edit- Didn't he pick up frostmourn?

[Anteros]

I'm opposed to Sauron winning, but I feel that this is a drastic oversimplification.

From what I have gleaned in these sort of vs threads.. ME magic is more subtle and less flashy than Azeroth magic. And more importantly, it has huge costs for the user, such as revealing your presence to dangerous people in the vicinity. It is also a much rarer thing, ME is a very low magic setting, while Azeroth is comparitively high magic.

But - even if ME magic were indeed absolutely horrible (which it isn't, it's just more low-key), it doesn't matter in the context of this thread. THis thread isn't Azeroth vs ME, its Ner'zhul vs Sauron. Which means that the world enviroment is redundant, only the individual powers of the fighters are important.


Umm, how is it irrelevant? I think the strength of the followers is extremely important to a vs. thread, unless we are discounting them. And we are not.
So at best Sauron has a select few "low key" spellcasters while the Lich King has thousands. In addition, each of these casters is far more powerful than the average caster Sauron's.

As for the statement that it is powerful, but low key, give me one example of powerful magic being used in middle earth by someone who cannot be classified as a god.

[Oslecamo]

Wow, that just destroyed the LK from the inside. I wish i thought of that ten pages ago

From,
EE
Edit- Didn't he pick up frostmourn?

Frostmourn picked him. And anyway he's geting short of valuable friends to sacrifice for major artifacts.

[Krrth]

Umm, how is it irrelevant? I think the strength of the followers is extremely important to a vs. thread, unless we are discounting them. And we are not.
So at best Sauron has a select few "low key" spellcasters while the Lich King has thousands. In addition, each of these casters is far more powerful than the average caster Sauron's.

As for the statement that it is powerful, but low key, give me one example of powerful magic being used in middle earth by someone who cannot be classified as a god.

Um...since Sauron himself is classified as a god....any of the elves can do it. THe WK is almost as powerful as sauron, as I recall. The men of numuinor (sp) are mind readers...they don't classify magic as we would. For that matter, just about anything ol' TOm does....the march of the Fangorn forest....

[Rowanomicon]

...Sauron can be classified as a god...

Sauron has many casters on his side (among the Black Numenorians), we just don't see most of them in person.

Anyway, I'll do you one better. I'll show you that subtle does not mean weak.

Let's imagine we're playing a D&D game and we are totally outfitted with magical items except for one slot left: the head.

On the table in front of us are two helms. One is easily recognizable as a Helm of Brilliance, a very powerful and flashy magical item. The other is rather shabby looking, in fact it's a ratty leather hat. Unfortunately we are not allowed to cast identify, detect magic, or any such spells in this room. We do, however, know that both items are powerful magical items. We know the powers that Helm of Brilliance has, but all we know about the hat is that it is powerful and has not outward powers that manifest themselves visually.
You can have the Helm of Brilliance for all I care because the leather hat gives me a +100 enhancement bonus to all my abilities. Heck, make that a +1,000,000, it'd be just as flashy.

So, yeah, I'm not going to go looking for something that makes bright light for you because most people downplay ME magic as "a flashlight" or "a mere sleep spell" when in actuality that sleep spell puts gods to sleep and Gandalf's "flashlight" is the only thing that can drive of incredibly powerful evil that even the strongest of men pee themselves when near.

I think I'll head off to the S v V thread to find WG's post that summed up the ME magic system rather well.

Also the caster's that LK has have been statted out as not actually being that powerful. You can imagine them as however you want, but in this thread we look at what is supported by evidence.

[EvilElitest]

Umm, how is it irrelevant? I think the strength of the followers is extremely important to a vs. thread, unless we are discounting them. And we are not.

What she is saying is you can't say "well the LK's are just better" and leave it at that, to which i agree. Our side has countered almost every one of the LK's allies


So at best Sauron has a select few "low key" spellcasters while the Lich King has thousands. In addition, each of these casters is far more powerful than the average caster Sauron's.
1. Thousands? Try hundreds
2. Umm, nazgul vs. random necromaner. Yeah.....
3. Can you prove this?


As for the statement that it is powerful, but low key, give me one example of powerful magic being used in middle earth by someone who cannot be classified as a god.
Gandalf killed a Balrog
The WK pervented an entire city from moving due to fear
The WK has the morgul shank knives
Saurman created a race and blew up an entire wall
A freaking mountain can control the weather
The ring, nuff said
The mouth of Sauron throw 6,500 men into despair
Gandalf drove away the nazgul
The army of the dead
The creation of the Simerials or the great jews
the seeing stones
The generally better magical weapon, if less flashy
Bringing a forest to life
Making dudes immune to fear
Domination of will
Ninjas
Gladerial/Elronds magic
The phial of Gladerial
control the spirts of the dead
Drain strength
Weaken foes
curse your foes (REALLY NASTY CURSES)
and that is just from the top of my head


Also the caster's that LK has have been statted out as not actually being that powerful. You can imagine them as however you want, but in this thread we look at what is supported by evidence.
raise the dead, heal the undead, harm the living (inflict wounds basically) and i think taht is it for necromancers?


from,
EE

[Anteros]

Um...since Sauron himself is classified as a god....any of the elves can do it. THe WK is almost as powerful as sauron, as I recall. The men of numuinor (sp) are mind readers...they don't classify magic as we would. For that matter, just about anything ol' TOm does....the march of the Fangorn forest....

Yes, and I specifically stated that Sauron is extremely powerful...it still won't help him against the overwhelming numbers his enemy has.

The WK is oh so very powerful that all he ever does that I can think of is fly around and wait to get stabbed in the face by a girl. He may be a terror in melee, and he may even be an incredibly strong magician by middle earth's standards, but he never does any of the epic level magic that we see in the warcraft universe.

I don't think we can count Tom Bombadill in Sauron's forces so I'm not sure what your point is. If he isn't a God he's damn close, and even with him we don't really see any impressive or epic magic.

As far as reading minds and walking trees go, these are parlor tricks in the warcraft universe. Hell, a level one druid hero in warcraft 3 can summon intelligent trees to fight for him. You're effectively saying that the most powerful magics in Middle Earth can be duplicated by one of the weakest magicians in Azeroth. Which was exactly my point. Thanks.

[Rowanomicon]

Never fear, overly academic goblinoid with facial disfigurement to the rescue!

Here's how I would codify LOTR magic: Base it off of Descartes' "I think therefore I am", only modified to be "I think, therefore ____". Essentially instead of rewritting reality in a location, I think of it as adding some extra axioms of reality. For example the spell of shutting on the door in Moria would have all of its original physical properties the axiom "If something tries open this door, it won't open". The Balrog's counterspell was, according to my model, essentially saying "This door, in fact, can open," it was removing (aka countering) the extra axiom. The Ring seems to work roughly the same, it makes the person posessing it seek power, not by overriding its mind in an overt, mindcrushy way, but by essentially forcing them to except the axiom "I want power" as part of their makeup.

Incidentally this could explain why LOTR casters can't fly, since gravity is an existing condition and therefore not mutable under my system. Invisibility works, because light naturally penetrates an object to some degree, the Rings just up this to 100% of light. It also does a good job of explaning shapeshifting since it just changes a beings "You look like ___" to "No, you look like ___" instead.

Granted, I'm sure that there is a problem with this system somewhere that I'm not thinking of, but in general I think it does a decent job of explaining the way that LOTR magic works.

Thoughts on this interpretation?

OK, there it is.

As to ME magic being level one magic. Yeah, Sleep is a level one spell in D&D, but hey, guess what? It puts a god to sleep in this instance so it's obviously more powerful.
Yes, this was in my last post, but apparently I have to spell it out in every detail.

Sauron raises mountain ranges (around Mordor) and controls weather.

Also you sure didn't counter the "scaring an entire city into submission" now did you?

The "overwhelming numbers" are composed exclusively of people who have the ability to do 0 damage to Sauron. I have yet to see any evidence that only on LK's side (short of LK himself) could even hurt Sauron (alone), let alone defeat him.

EDIT: Heck, (as I said a few posts ago) I don't even see anyone really hurting The Witch King.

[EvilElitest]

Yes, and I specifically stated that Sauron is extremely powerful...it still won't help him against the overwhelming numbers his enemy has.

Countered, he has a better, faster built, superior army.



The WK is oh so very powerful that all he ever does that I can think of is fly around and wait to get stabbed in the face by a girl. He may be a terror in melee, and he may even be an incredibly strong magician by middle earth's standards, but he never does any of the epic level magic that we see in the warcraft universe.
WOW magic=yawn when it comes to the LK's forces i'm sorry
The WK has
1. Destroy an entire nation that was greater than Gondor while fighting elves and gondor
2. Ruled mordor when Sauron was gone
3 Took over the haradrim
4. Took over Minas Morgul. Twice
5. Took over Cirith Ungul
6. Killed the last king of Gondor (pior to Aragorn)
7. Slew the prince of anor
8. was equal to gandalf in strength of will
9. Defeated the best fighter in Rohan in a few second (he didn't lose until he was hobbit shanked)
10. Made an entire city unable to move simple due to fear
11. Stop a charge of 6,000 riders by his super fear powers
12. commanded the armies of mordor
13. Killed a single ninja
14. Shanked Frodo
15. only nazgul to live through the attack of the river
16. Is badass
17. Said to rival Gandalf in power
and that is at his weakest state, he is greater when Sauron has the ring


I don't think we can count Tom Bombadill in Sauron's forces so I'm not sure what your point is.
And the Lk doesn't have access to most of Azeroth's most powerful magics, your point?


If he isn't a God he's damn close, and even with him we don't really see any impressive or epic magic.
Not flashy, he is immune to the ring, that is damn epic


As far as reading minds and walking trees go, these are parlor tricks in the warcraft universe.
Except they are far more powerful than their warcraft counterparts



Hell, a level one druid hero in warcraft 3 can summon intelligent trees to fight for him.
Except an ent is far more badass than those crappy trees


You're effectively saying that the most powerful magics in Middle Earth can be duplicated by one of the weakest magicians in Azeroth. Which was exactly my point. Thanks.
And the LK lacks those powers and you haven't countered or back up any on your points. Thank you
from,
EE

[Krrth]

Telepathy may be a parlor trick...but miles away?

summoning trees...cool, but can they summon an entire forest of em?

As tomy previous point, much of what warcraft would consider magic is NOT considered as such is ME. I mean, they don't consider making artifact level items to be magic!

[Rowanomicon]

One thing people often forget is that middle earth does not have a game style magic system because *gasp* it's not a game. It's not even a series of novels really.
It's a mythology.

Also, as I stated in the S v V thread, magic is basically what we (normal people in the real world) do not understand.
In "reality" everything is explainable and works somehow, even if it's just that it superimposes itself over the normal rules of the universe.

[Executor]

Okay *deep breathe* EE has asked to actually talk on the threads I start rather than just observe, so here I am:

Sauron, as we established in the S vs V thread, is a being of amazing power. His presence is Cthulhu-esque, so I do not think that the Lich King, if he meets Sauron face to face, will not come out of the meeting with anything like a functioning brain. Sauron CAN crush the wills of others. He simply asked a question, through a Palantir, and Pippin ( a being of a race unusually resilient to magic) was reduced to a blithering mass. If Ner'zhul does not have his mind flayed from his body and his soul left naked to the Great Eye, then it comes down to a physical battle. The Lich King did defeat Illidan, and that is no small feat, but I believe Sauron is the greater warrior. He took on the six greatest warriors of their Age, all at once, and killed the two most powerful of them (two who could beat the other four into a thin red mist) before his physical form dying. Has the Lich King done anything of the sort? Has the Lich King fought in a shapeshifting battle with a God of Hounds? Has the Lich King deflected divine bolts from the God-king of the planet? Has the Lich King taken over the greatest kingdom of Men, ever, simply by fast talking? Has Ner'zhul fought in every major war since before the Universe was created? No. By experience alone, Sauron trumps him. Overall, I believe Sauron will win in a personal duel against the Lich King. Sauron is one of the only evil overlords who never made me think "Man, how stupid can you be" and if it hadn't been for a pair of suicidal midgets, he would've won the War of the Ring.

[EvilElitest]

Okay *deep breathe* EE has asked to actually talk on the threads I start rather than just observe, so here I am:

Sauron, as we established in the S vs V thread, is a being of amazing power. His presence is Cthulhu-esque, so I do not think that the Lich King, if he meets Sauron face to face, will not come out of the meeting with anything like a functioning brain. Sauron CAN crush the wills of others. He simply asked a question, through a Palantir, and Pippin ( a being of a race unusually resilient to magic) was reduced to a blithering mass. If Ner'zhul does not have his mind flayed from his body and his soul left naked to the Great Eye, then it comes down to a physical battle. The Lich King did defeat Illidan, and that is no small feat, but I believe Sauron is the greater warrior. He took on the six greatest warriors of their Age, all at once, and killed the two most powerful of them (two who could beat the other four into a thin red mist) before his physical form dying. Has the Lich King done anything of the sort? Has the Lich King fought in a shapeshifting battle with a God of Hounds? Has the Lich King deflected divine bolts from the God-king of the planet? Has the Lich King taken over the greatest kingdom of Men, ever, simply by fast talking? Has Ner'zhul fought in every major war since before the Universe was created? No. By experience alone, Sauron trumps him. Overall, I believe Sauron will win in a personal duel against the Lich King.

Wonderfully summed up, you do me proud. I think you covered most of the key points here. Thank you, i hope to see you more often



Sauron is one of the only evil overlords who never made me think "Man, how stupid can you be" and if it hadn't been for a pair of suicidal midgets, he would've won the War of the Ring.

Yeah, most evil villians i spend time going "No, bad villian, bad villian" but he does a good job. Because if i was a dark lord, i would have forgotton the migits as well
from,
EE

[Anteros]

What she is saying is you can't say "well the LK's are just better" and leave it at that, to which i agree. Our side has countered almost every one of the LK's allies

Fair Enough, I'll give it a try here.



1. Thousands? Try hundreds
2. Umm, nazgul vs. random necromaner. Yeah.....
3. Can you prove this?

Have you ever played world of warcraft in the higher level areas? There are undead magic users everywhere. Some areas have hundreds just in their respective areas. I'm fairly sure that there are at least 2 or more thousand undead or otherwise scourge associated magic users, although I have not of course done a detailed count of every single creature in the game.

Now I know people don't like using a MMO as canon, but whether you like it or not, it is canon.

Also, as far as Nazgul vs. random necromancer... The nazgul are likely greater than an average necromancer...but not by much. In warcraft you have to remember that the average spellcaster can do things like summon elementals, raise zombies, polymorph, and a million other things that the majority of enemies in Middle earth simply cannot do. While I'll give you that the nazgul > Random w/c mage (simply because they are saurons big captains, certainly not on their own merit) there are only nine of them.


1.Gandalf killed a Balrog
2. The WK pervented an entire city from moving due to fear
3. The WK has the morgul shank knives
4. Saurman created a race and blew up an entire wall
5. A freaking mountain can control the weather
6. The ring, nuff said
7. The mouth of Sauron throw 6,500 men into despair
8. Gandalf drove away the nazgul
9. The army of the dead
10.The creation of the Simerials or the great jews
11. the seeing stones
12. The generally better magical weapon, if less flashy
13. Bringing a forest to life
14. Making dudes immune to fear
15. Domination of will
16. Ninjas
17. Gladerial/Elronds magic
18. The phial of Gladerial
19. control the spirts of the dead
20. Drain strength
21. Weaken foes
22. curse your foes (REALLY NASTY CURSES)
and that is just from the top of my head
23. raise the dead,
24. heal the undead,
25. harm the living (inflict wounds basically) and i think taht is it for necromancers?
from,
EE

I numbered your points to make it easier for myself to keep track while responding to them, sorry if it bothers you.
1.) Balrog's are certainly rare and powerful creatures. In middle earth. People from Azeroth are constantly dealing with such creatures and there is really no proof that a balrog is powerful Azeroths standards.
2.) I don't remember this, but I'll take your word for it. Certainly an impressive feat. (Is the fear magic or just normal fear.) Why didn't he use this on the Riders of Rohan and the defenders of Minis Tirith? I'll need some more info before I comment on this one.
3.)I'm not familiar with these knives, and a google search got me nothing. However it sounds like a powerful magical weapon. The kind of thing that is nearly commonplace in Azeroth.
4.) Creating a race is extremely impressive, but it's another kind of subtle magic, and I don't see how it will help Sauron unless this battle takes a very very long time. In which case Arthas dies of old age and Sauron wins by default. Blowing up a wall is less than impressive and just about any caster in Azeroth could do it.
5. As opposed to a mountain that can control the weather...how about random mooks that can? Cause the warcraft universe is full of them. (Arthas wouldn't have access to these, but it still demonstrates the power gap)
6. I'm not getting deeply into the ring as it deserves its own discussion. But yes, I will allow that an item containing the majority of the power of a God is probably powerful. (The reason why I specifically spoke about common magic.)
7. Yes, God's can do this sort of thing. I already admitted Sauron is personally more powerful than any non-diety from the Warcraft universe, including the LK.
8. Drove away the Nazgul by doing what? Hitting them with a flashlight? By that logic so could my little sister. (Obviously I'll admit there was more to it than this, but we have no idea of knowing what. Maybe Nazgul don't like that specific type of light? Maybe it was a banishment spell? We just don't know.
9. Army of the dead...yeah cause those arent everywhere in Azeroth? The army of the dead is remarkable in M.E. because it is unique, in Azeroth such things are extremely common.
10. Weren't these created by Gods? I specifically asked for non-god related events. And I don't think Sauron has any God's on his side anyway other than himself.
11. Seeing stones are extremely mundane by Azeroth's standards. My low level rogue owns several.
12. I'm not sure how you can argue that magic weapons in M.E. are better or worse as there is no way to compare them. However, we can argue that magic weapons are far more common to Azeroth so it would follow that there were many more powerful magic users around to make them.
13. Bringing forests to life are fairly common for druids in the warcraft universe. (Again, Arthas doesn't have access to this, but neither does Sauron so the point is moot anyway.)
14. Making people immune to fear is a fairly intrical part of some of the casting types in warcraft.
15. Domination is also present in both universes, although I'll admit that Sauron does it better than anyone in Azeroth. (Except maybe Nerzhul over Arthas.)
16. I'm not sure if you're serious about ninjas. I don't think so, but just to be safe I'll note that there are in fact ninjas in Azeroth.
17. I don't remember Elrond and Gladdy ever doing anything that impressive magically. Maybe crafting some good weapons or creating night lights?
18. The phial is of course the night light in question. I'd hardly call it an artifact.
19. Again, controlling the spirits of the dead is mundane in azeroth.
20-22. All of these basically consisted of different debuffs, which of course almost any magic user in azeroth has access to in one for or another.
23. In M.E. there may be a few instances of ressurections. In Azeroth over half the casting classes can raise the dead.
24. Healing the undead; regular healing works on WoW undead for balance reasons so this is somewhat moot.
25. As for harming the living, every single caster in Azeroth has multiple ways to do this.

If we were comparing WC3's lich king to Sauron, Sauron would destroy him. However the power creep from having a WoW mmo that is canon has made the Warcraft universe far too powerful for anything from middle earth to compete.
Individually Sauron would destroy the LK, however given the sheer number and quality of magic users at Arthas' disposal, Sauron will eventually be overrun.

Also I just noticed your new list of magic accomplishments for team Sauron. I'm not going to respond to these individually, but I will say that every example you give of him triumphing, it is over another lower magic user of middle earth. I actually agree with you that wow magic = yawn and subtle magic makes for much better stories, but subtle doesn't win in a direct fight against overwhelming. If we are assuming this battle to take place over several centuries I will give it to Sauron. I don't think we are though.

As far as making artifact level items and not considering it magic. How do we know whether it is an artifact level item or if it is a +1 sword? We don't because they don't say. Not that I think they should, since it's literature...but your point cannot stand when we have no way of comparing the items. Maybe they are better than Azeroths, maybe they are worse. We simply do not know.
(Wow this was a long post.)

As far as accomplishments...Arthas defeated Illidan who was one of the strongest people in Warcraft canon as a mortal. Arthas defeated him after he became a devil. And Arthas had not even become the lich king yet. So yes, I think he could do those things, although of course I cannot say for sure.

Personally I find warcraft lore to be trite and boring. Tolkiens work is infinately better, so don't think I'm bashing on team sauron here. They just would not win in a direct fight against this type of enemy.

[Rowanomicon]

In WoW PCs are not cannon and therefore everything they do is not cannon.
So, while WoW can be considered cannon in some respects it is not cannon in others.
The story of WC3 is more cannon.

[Anteros]

In WoW PCs are not cannon and therefore everything they do is not cannon.
So, while WoW can be considered cannon in some respects it is not cannon in others.
The story of WC3 is more cannon.

Where do I refer to PCs at any time? Aside from which, yes PCs are canon. Are they individually canon? No. But it is canon that there are many powerful adventurers wandering around now, and anything your PC can accomplish is canonically accomplishable by normal mortals.

[Rowanomicon]

Sorry, but I hate when people counter points with "where did I say this?"

Obviously you did not say anything about PCs.

I did.

Now you have said that PCs are cannon...

If the entirety of WoW is cannon that that world simply cannot run on its infrastructure so LK can't win (even though I already proved that) because his world is about to collapse around him.

[EvilElitest]

Fair Enough, I'll give it a try here.

Thank you


Have you ever played world of warcraft in the higher level areas? There are undead magic users everywhere. Some areas have hundreds just in their respective areas. I'm fairly sure that there are at least 2 or more thousand undead or otherwise scourge associated magic users, although I have not of course done a detailed count of every single creature in the game.

Yes, and there are certainily not enough necromancers in the game to equal "thousands", so lets say around 2 thousand undead necromancers mabye? I hate guessing but that sounds right


Now I know people don't like using a MMO as canon, but whether you like it or not, it is canon.
That is not my complaint i want to know what is MORE cannon, WOW or the RPG?



Also, as far as Nazgul vs. random necromancer... The nazgul are likely greater than an average necromancer...but not by much. In warcraft you have to remember that the average spellcaster can do things like summon elementals, raise zombies, polymorph, and a million other things that the majority of enemies in Middle earth simply cannot do. While I'll give you that the nazgul > Random w/c mage (simply because they are saurons big captains, certainly not on their own merit) there are only nine of them.

1. Necromancer, not archmage here
2. Yes but not every single caster gets all of those powers, most of which aren't that good against Nazgul or most of Sauron's forces
3. LK doesn't have people able to use all of those powers i believe.
4. Using WOW as a source, they seem powerful but haven't you noticed most of those spell only effect a small group? Almost as if the game was trying to make you only fight small groups of enemies where the spells would be perfect.
5. If we translate the spell into WOW RPG terms you might do better, but that would be admiting the RPG is cannon


I numbered your points to make it easier for myself to keep track while responding to them, sorry if it bothers you.
on the contrary, i like it better this way thank you



1.) Balrog's are certainly rare and powerful creatures. In middle earth. People from Azeroth are constantly dealing with such creatures and there is really no proof that a balrog is powerful Azeroths standards
Really? Because it is pretty badass even by WOW standards really.



2.) I don't remember this, but I'll take your word for it. Certainly an impressive feat. (Is the fear magic or just normal fear.) Why didn't he use this on the Riders of Rohan and the defenders of Minis Tirith? I'll need some more info before I comment on this one.
As the WK approached the city, no body in the city could fight back because of teh sheer dread he brought, until gandalf semi stopped it (it only didn't work near him)


3.)I'm not familiar with these knives, and a google search got me nothing. However it sounds like a powerful magical weapon. The kind of thing that is nearly commonplace in Azeroth.
No it is not. these knives are basiclly
You get stabbed
If stabbed in the heart you turn into a lesser ringwraith
Is stabbed anywhere else, the tip of the blade breaks off and moves through your body into your heart and kills you
Work on anyone really
Does WOW have this? Or invisibility for that matter?


4.) Creating a race is extremely impressive, but it's another kind of subtle magic, and I don't see how it will help Sauron unless this battle takes a very very long time. In which case Arthas dies of old age and Sauron wins by default. Blowing up a wall is less than impressive and just about any caster in Azeroth could do it.
We already proved that Sauron can create around ten thousand Uruk-hai in seven months. Consider the fact that the LK's army is limited in getting more men (dark creatures like orcs don't turn into undead, while humans are in limited number and bodies can be destroyed) the LK has a problem. And in WOW, can any PC blow up a wall from a few miles away?


5. As opposed to a mountain that can control the weather...how about random mooks that can?
Please, a fire foot wide storm cloud doesn't impress me in the least


Cause the warcraft universe is full of them. (Arthas wouldn't have access to these, but it still demonstrates the power gap)
The can ummmmmmm make it rain? Um, yeah that is pretty much it. Oh illadin does a single super spell to cause an earthquake.


6. I'm not getting deeply into the ring as it deserves its own discussion. But yes, I will allow that an item containing the majority of the power of a God is probably powerful. (The reason why I specifically spoke about common magic.)
Hey, its invisibility is better than anything WOW has.


7. Yes, God's can do this sort of thing. I already admitted Sauron is personally more powerful than any non-diety from the Warcraft universe, including the LK.
The mouth of Sauron, he is a person, not sauron himself, his messanger.


8. Drove away the Nazgul by doing what? Hitting them with a flashlight? By that logic so could my little sister. (Obviously I'll admit there was more to it than this, but we have no idea of knowing what. Maybe Nazgul don't like that specific type of light? Maybe it was a banishment spell? We just don't know
We do, really intense holy light (that gandalf always radiates).


9. Army of the dead...yeah cause those arent everywhere in Azeroth? The army of the dead is remarkable in M.E. because it is unique, in Azeroth such things are extremely common.
really, can you name an army of the dead that is as powerful as this one? There are armies of undead, but those are more zombies.


10. Weren't these created by Gods? I specifically asked for non-god related events. And I don't think Sauron has any God's on his side anyway other than himself.
No, they were made by an elven smith. A bit of a git, but still mortal.


11. Seeing stones are extremely mundane by Azeroth's standards. My low level rogue owns several.
really? You can dominate other people's minds, see the entire world, and talk to other people from far distances with them? I never new that.


12. I'm not sure how you can argue that magic weapons in M.E. are better or worse as there is no way to compare them. However, we can argue that magic weapons are far more common to Azeroth so it would follow that there were many more powerful magic users around to make them.
Most of the magic items in WOW just let you hit them harder or for better damage. LOTRS just destroy stuff,


13. Bringing forests to life are fairly common for druids in the warcraft universe. (Again, Arthas doesn't have access to this, but neither does Sauron so the point is moot anyway.)
Their is a REALLY big difference between forest and tree. Imagine what Warcraft druids can do, and expand it to whole forests


14. Making people immune to fear is a fairly intrical part of some of the casting types in warcraft.
I'll give that one to you


15. Domination is also present in both universes, although I'll admit that Sauron does it better than anyone in Azeroth. (Except maybe Nerzhul over Arthas.)
Dominatino and will magics is kinda the biggest magic in LOTRS
Also Sauron in three years talks his way into king of the greatest human nation in the world



16. I'm not sure if you're serious about ninjas. I don't think so, but just to be safe I'll note that there are in fact ninjas in Azeroth.
Sauron has troll ninjas:smallsmile:

17. I don't remember Elrond and Gladdy ever doing anything that impressive magically. Maybe crafting some good weapons or creating night lights?
I was refering to the fact evil literally can't enter their realms


18. The phial is of course the night light in question. I'd hardly call it an artifact.
It has destroyed two really powerful evil spirts, protected its wielder from temptation from the ring twice, held of the WK's fear, destroyed wall, and destroys evil creatures as well as blinding the second greatest spider in the world


19. Again, controlling the spirits of the dead is mundane in azeroth.
to a lesser scale however

20-22. All of these basically consisted of different debuffs, which of course almost any magic user in azeroth has access to in one for or another.
20-21 yes
NOT THE CURSE
if you get cursed in Middle earth, you like sucks. That is it, you might as well stab your self now because it will SUCK. No matter what you do, you will lose. Not "I take away 20 strength points" curse "you will destroy everyone you love" curse


23. In M.E. there may be a few instances of ressurections. In Azeroth over half the casting classes can raise the dead.
PC deaths don't count. And i was referring to creating undead


24. Healing the undead; regular healing works on WoW undead for balance reasons so this is somewhat moot.\



25. As for harming the living, every single caster in Azeroth has multiple ways to do this.
um yes


If we were comparing WC3's lich king to Sauron, Sauron would destroy him. However the power creep from having a WoW mmo that is canon has made the Warcraft universe far too powerful for anything from middle earth to compete.
Not really, he hasn't done anything other than let his army go to waste


Individually Sauron would destroy the LK, however given the sheer number and quality of magic users at Arthas' disposal, Sauron will eventually be overrun.
We've already counter almost all of his possible tatics. Explain to me this, how would he get past the Black Gate?

from,
EE

[Anteros]

Thank you

Yes, and there are certainily not enough necromancers in the game to equal "thousands", so lets say around 2 thousand undead necromancers mabye? I hate guessing but that sounds right


That is not my complaint i want to know what is MORE cannon, WOW or the RPG?



1. Necromancer, not archmage here
2. Yes but not every single caster gets all of those powers, most of which aren't that good against Nazgul or most of Sauron's forces
3. LK doesn't have people able to use all of those powers i believe.
4. Using WOW as a source, they seem powerful but haven't you noticed most of those spell only effect a small group? Almost as if the game was trying to make you only fight small groups of enemies where the spells would be perfect.
5. If we translate the spell into WOW RPG terms you might do better, but that would be admiting the RPG is cannon


on the contrary, i like it better this way thank you



Really? Because it is pretty badass even by WOW standards really.



As the WK approached the city, no body in the city could fight back because of teh sheer dread he brought, until gandalf semi stopped it (it only didn't work near him)


No it is not. these knives are basiclly
You get stabbed
If stabbed in the heart you turn into a lesser ringwraith
Is stabbed anywhere else, the tip of the blade breaks off and moves through your body into your heart and kills you
Work on anyone really
Does WOW have this? Or invisibility for that matter?


We already proved that Sauron can create around ten thousand Uruk-hai in seven months. Consider the fact that the LK's army is limited in getting more men (dark creatures like orcs don't turn into undead, while humans are in limited number and bodies can be destroyed) the LK has a problem. And in WOW, can any PC blow up a wall from a few miles away?

Please, a fire foot wide storm cloud doesn't impress me in the least


The can ummmmmmm make it rain? Um, yeah that is pretty much it. Oh illadin does a single super spell to cause an earthquake.


Hey, its invisibility is better than anything WOW has.


The mouth of Sauron, he is a person, not sauron himself, his messanger.


We do, really intense holy light (that gandalf always radiates).

really, can you name an army of the dead that is as powerful as this one? There are armies of undead, but those are more zombies.


No, they were made by an elven smith. A bit of a git, but still mortal.

really? You can dominate other people's minds, see the entire world, and talk to other people from far distances with them? I never new that.


Most of the magic items in WOW just let you hit them harder or for better damage. LOTRS just destroy stuff,


Their is a REALLY big difference between forest and tree. Imagine what Warcraft druids can do, and expand it to whole forests

I'll give that one to you


Dominatino and will magics is kinda the biggest magic in LOTRS
Also Sauron in three years talks his way into king of the greatest human nation in the world



Sauron has troll ninjas:smallsmile:

I was refering to the fact evil literally can't enter their realms

It has destroyed two really powerful evil spirts, protected its wielder from temptation from the ring twice, held of the WK's fear, destroyed wall, and destroys evil creatures as well as blinding the second greatest spider in the world


to a lesser scale however

20-21 yes
NOT THE CURSE
if you get cursed in Middle earth, you like sucks. That is it, you might as well stab your self now because it will SUCK. No matter what you do, you will lose. Not "I take away 20 strength points" curse "you will destroy everyone you love" curse


PC deaths don't count. And i was referring to creating undead
\


um yes


Not really, he hasn't done anything other than let his army go to waste

We've already counter almost all of his possible tatics. Explain to me this, how would he get past the Black Gate?

from,
EE

I don't see why WoW and the RPG cannot both be cannon, I don't think they contradict each other? (Although they probably do, Blizzard lore cannonically contradicts itself all the time, it's like they don't even read their owns stuff before they add to it.)
Also, I feel like I could argue with most of these points, but I think that I'm going to wait for the next WoW expansion to be released so I actually have some concrete information about the Lich king. As it is, most of what we know about him and his forces is conjecture, and I'm not entirely comfortable arguing his case when Blizzard could turn around a month from now and have his army desert completely, or have him be slain by a couple of mooks like they did to Illidan.
One point though. Why do we naturally assume that Sauron gets to play defensive in his fortress? If we assume he never comes out, and the LK cannot possibly get in then I think it's somewhat of an unfair scenario. It's every bit as likely that Sauron would be on the offensive as defensive in this scenario, since it's not "what if the LK tried to kill sauron?" It's "what if the LK and Sauron tried to kill each other."

I'll probably try to respond to your particular points tomorrow (even though I just said I wasn't...I don't like to just give up), but I have to go out with the g/f right now.

[SilentNight]

I have to go with LK. Sauron is kind of a man and therefore would fall under the prophecy.

[warty goblin]

I have to go with LK. Sauron is kind of a man and therefore would fall under the prophecy.

?????

People I bring new evidence for the succor of our most mighty Dark Lord!

The Nine united and mounted are pretty badass. Gandalf was unable to defeat them. Aragorn and Glorfindel combined cannot stand before the Nine. Aragorn is the only entity in Middle Earth to survive direct mental contact with Sauron, and Glorfindel is the reincarnation of one of the most powerful Elf warriors, who soloed a Balrog, and uncloaked is a figure of almost indescribable power. Elrond stopped them at the Fords, by unleashing a massive defense that was bolstered by Gandalf. Two of the most powerful spellcasters, using two of the Elven Rings in friendly territory (which in LOTR counts bigtime), and they slowed the Nazgul down for like, five months or something, I honestly can't remember the actual number.

Even speaking to the Nazgul brings the listener under their control as well. Now this pretty clearly isn't enough to bend the Lich King to their will, but the lesser necromancers certainly could be turned by this.

On the power of the Balrogs. Durin's Bane essentially single-handedly destroyed Moria from the inside out. It then survived what was essentially the longest fall possible, down to the uttermost foundations of Stone, and the fight back up the mountain. Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, killed Feanor, who was basically the greatest Elf (hence non-divine) entity ever to live, and I think two other Elf Lords I'm forgetting, and the pain of their fiery whips are enough to drive off Ungoliont herself, a being of such evil and power that even Melkor is afraid of her.
The closest being I can think of in Warcraft off the top of my head is Mal'Ganis, who I repeatedly killed using dudes with spears. Granted, he reformed a few minutes later, but he could still be temporarily halted by conventional force. The Balrogs, as seen by Durin's Bane's destruction of Moria, can't.

[Rowanomicon]

Haha, WG, you rock. I don't know why, but I laughed all the way through your post.
Probably because I imagines it all to be in same tone as the initial exclamation.

Anyway, what prophecy now?

Also, as to where they fight, Sauron is a more than brilliant tactician who's planning ability is second to none and has experience going back literally to before time started.

[EvilElitest]

I don't see why WoW and the RPG cannot both be cannon, I don't think they contradict each other? (Although they probably do, Blizzard lore cannonically contradicts itself all the time, it's like they don't even read their owns stuff before they add to it.)

No, they do. A LOTTTTTTTTTTTTTT. To the point of it being annoying.


Also, I feel like I could argue with most of these points, but I think that I'm going to wait for the next WoW expansion to be released so I actually have some concrete information about the Lich king.
ummmm, see you in a year and a half?

As it is, most of what we know about him and his forces is conjecture, and I'm not entirely comfortable arguing his case when Blizzard could turn around a month from now and have his army desert completely, or have him be slain by a couple of mooks like they did to Illidan.
What a sad way to go


One point though. Why do we naturally assume that Sauron gets to play defensive in his fortress?
Because we know he is smart enough to do so, seeing has he has in the past and knows the values of his defensives


If we assume he never comes out, and the LK cannot possibly get in then I think it's somewhat of an unfair scenario. It's every bit as likely that Sauron would be on the offensive as defensive in this scenario, since it's not "what if the LK tried to kill sauron?" It's "what if the LK and Sauron tried to kill each other."
But looking at Sauron's miltary record, he is a careful guy. It would make sense for him to stay in mordor, and
A) Fight hte Lk (if the LK attacks) and try to destroy his army
B) Build an even bigger army



I'll probably try to respond to your particular points tomorrow (even though I just said I wasn't...I don't like to just give up), but I have to go out with the g/f right now.

Have a nice time:smallwink:

I have to go with LK. Sauron is kind of a man and therefore would fall under the prophecy.
what? Do you mean the WK?


The Nine united and mounted are pretty badass. Gandalf was unable to defeat them. Aragorn and Glorfindel combined cannot stand before the Nine
And that is when they are weakened.

Two of the most powerful spellcasters, using two of the Elven Rings in friendly territory (which in LOTR counts bigtime), and they slowed the Nazgul down for like, five months or something, I honestly can't remember the actual number.
It took them like a month to reform i think, but longer to get back on track because they had to help rally the army.


Lord of Balrogs, killed Feanor, who was basically the greatest Elf (hence non-divine) entity ever to live, and I think two other Elf Lords I'm forgetting,
1. Feanor
2. The high king of the elves, second greatest elven king
3. The champain of Gondalion, who used the magic of the sacred fountain along with his sacerfice to destory Gothmog
Nicely done WG, i didn't know you played Warcraft.
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

Or invisibility for that matter?

WoW has several ways to become invisible. The ring's invisibility is not perfect anyway as there is still a faint shadow in bright light (not saying it's easy to spot, just saying it's not fool-proof).


The mouth of Sauron, he is a person, not sauron himself, his messanger.

Yeah, he's just a human who is just generally a bad person. The phrase used to describe him is "crueler than any orc." He's Sauron's lieutenant and is fully in accord with him without any of that nifty ring-enabled will bending. Granted, the MoS also had good reason for depressing everyone (i.e. he showed them Frodo's ringmail, Sam's sword, and one of their cloaks which is generally bad news for the secret mission).


We do, really intense holy light (that gandalf always radiates).

Yeah, the "flashlight" is essentially a turn undead spell. Gandalf is the same type of being as Sauron, only further down the power hierarchy, still on the "good" side, and limited to the "bent old man" look.


No, they were made by an elven smith. A bit of a git, but still mortal.

Yup, Feanor the mightiest of the Elves. In them, he captured the light of the Trees that lit the land of the gods (yeah, glowing trees, it's a myth, roll with it). The gods, even the Smith himself, were mystified as to how Feanor made them. Their worth within the context of Middle-earth is practically infinite.


Most of the magic items in WOW just let you hit them harder or for better damage. LOTRS just destroy stuff,

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3623664&postcount=321) is a link to my post with all of the magical weapons in Middle-earth I was able to find information on. Note that Glamdring, Orcrist, and Sting were likely typical weapons from Gondolin and there were probably more like them available before that city fell. Ditto with the Barrow-blades and the war between Arnor and Angmar.


I was refering to the fact evil literally can't enter their realms

Yeah, the bad guys know where Imladris and Lothlorien have to be on the map, but still can't actually manage to walk there.


It has destroyed two really powerful evil spirts, protected its wielder from temptation from the ring twice, held of the WK's fear, destroyed wall, and destroys evil creatures as well as blinding the second greatest spider in the world

Even more specifically, the light it emits is derived from the light of a silmaril and therefore has that ultra-"holy" thing going for it.


NOT THE CURSE
if you get cursed in Middle earth, you like sucks. That is it, you might as well stab your self now because it will SUCK. No matter what you do, you will lose. Not "I take away 20 strength points" curse "you will destroy everyone you love" curse

Yeah, curses in Tolkien are mythological in scope. Ever hear of the House of Atreus in Greek myth? Those guys just got totally screwed for generations and the guy doing the cursing was just a man.


We've already counter almost all of his possible tatics. Explain to me this, how would he get past the Black Gate?


Just throwing my 2cp in here, but to get just him into Mordor... maybe a gyrocopter (http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Engineering_Epic_Flyer.jpg)? Doesn't rely on magic, so shouldn't fail in Mordor (erm, at least not due to Sauron's influence - they are still engineering gizmos after all). The border is big enough that it can't all be under surveillance all the time.

[EvilElitest]

Horray walking target is back


WoW has several ways to become invisible. The ring's invisibility is not perfect anyway as there is still a faint shadow in bright light (not saying it's easy to spot, just saying it's not fool-proof).

But there is no invisibility item or spell that lets you
1. attack multiple times while still being invisible
2. Stay invisible all the time (or close to)
3. doesn't were off


Yeah, he's just a human who is just generally a bad person. The phrase used to describe him is "crueler than any orc." He's Sauron's lieutenant and is fully in accord with him without any of that nifty ring-enabled will bending. Granted, the MoS also had good reason for depressing everyone (i.e. he showed them Frodo's ringmail, Sam's sword, and one of their cloaks which is generally bad news for the secret mission).

He is also described as a master of the dark arts


Yeah, the "flashlight" is essentially a turn undead spell. Gandalf is the same type of being as Sauron, only further down the power hierarchy, still on the "good" side, and limited to the "bent old man" look.

pretty much


Yup, Feanor the mightiest of the Elves. In them, he captured the light of the Trees that lit the land of the gods (yeah, glowing trees, it's a myth, roll with it). The gods, even the Smith himself, were mystified as to how Feanor made them. Their worth within the context of Middle-earth is practically infinite.

and launced a few of the most horrible wars the world had ever seen



Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3623664&postcount=321) is a link to my post with all of the magical weapons in Middle-earth I was able to find information on. Note that Glamdring, Orcrist, and Sting were likely typical weapons from Gondolin and there were probably more like them available before that city fell. Ditto with the Barrow-blades and the war between Arnor and Angmar.

horray for WT


Yeah, the bad guys know where Imladris and Lothlorien have to be on the map, but still can't actually manage to walk there.

Intense


Even more specifically, the light it emits is derived from the light of a silmaril and therefore has that ultra-"holy" thing going for it.

And that is why i can't go near it, it burns my eyes:smallfrown:


Yeah, curses in Tolkien are mythological in scope. Ever hear of the House of Atreus in Greek myth? Those guys just got totally screwed for generations and the guy doing the cursing was just a man.

Or if we refer to LOTRS, didn't dude who slew the father of dragons have a REALLY bad curse


Just throwing my 2cp in here, but to get just him into Mordor... maybe a gyrocopter (http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Engineering_Epic_Flyer.jpg)? Doesn't rely on magic, so shouldn't fail in Mordor (erm, at least not due to Sauron's influence - they are still engineering gizmos after all). The border is big enough that it can't all be under surveillance all the time.
1. LK doesn't have that
2. It was made by gnomes. Thus there is a 30% chance it fails
3. Bad weather
4. Against fear, piloting error
5. Old fashion air planes crash a lot
from,
EE

[I_am_an_undead]

Hello everyone, this is my last post on this thread.

It's simply been so long since I posted something meaningful, and so many points have been made since then, that I wouldn't know were to start. The Lich King is cool, but not cool enough that I'd devote THAT much energy to defending him in a thread over the internets. So, yeah, I'll continue to follow the thread, just to see the conclusion, but I won't be posting. That's about it. Bye everyone.

[EvilElitest]

Hello everyone, this is my last post on this thread.

It's simply been so long since I posted something meaningful, and so many points have been made since then, that I wouldn't know were to start. The Lich King is cool, but not cool enough that I'd devote THAT much energy to defending him in a thread over the internets. So, yeah, I'll continue to follow the thread, just to see the conclusion, but I won't be posting. That's about it. Bye everyone.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO



Well not things are going to get boring
from,
EE

[Rowanomicon]

One more thing on the defensiveness and planning of Sauron:
It's actually what got him defeated.
If he had launched an all out attack he would have crushed Gondor (then Middle Earth) under his heel before Gandalf et co even got there.
He waited, planned, and built his defenses until his win was more than assured.
He did not, however, count on Gandalf sending Frodo in with The Ring, not any of the coincidences that allowed Frodo to get there (in hind sight it makes sense for Gollum to find Frodo then end up calling him Master, but Sauron probably wouldn't have suspected it).
Gandalf basically spells out that they'd have to be retarded to they think there's any chance of winning, but his plan is the "best" one they have and they have to do something.
So, yeah, the final battle (at least) will be in Mordor. This means that LK's side will have no magic. I wonder if Undead would simply cease functioning. I'm guessing yes, since they are animated by magic and we know that continuous effects are nulled.
LK/Frostmourne might be able to keep some amount of magic for this fight, but it will not be working at full capacity and it will not be directly affecting Sauron.

[EvilElitest]

Sauron and Light Yamagani are the only villians i know who are simple too smart for their own good


Edit- to make this offical, i'm um, winning the thread:smallwink:
yes i am aware of the irony here, but my points aren't yet countered so......And Warty Goblin won the last one


from,
EE

[Bago!!!]

I object!

I'll post my logic later.... Not enough time and too much to write! :smallmad:

[EvilElitest]

I object!

I'll post my logic later.... Not enough time and too much to write! :smallmad:

dear gods, the LK must be a epic level necromancer to bring this thread back. You've brought back a horror nobody can contain, for shame
from
EE

[Lord_Asmodeus]

dear gods, the LK must be a epic level necromancer to bring this thread back. You've brought back a horror nobody can contain, for shame
from
EE

Heheh, Lich King: Ruler, Overlord, Evil King, Thread Necromancer... fear the Lich King, FEAR!! :smalltongue:

[EvilElitest]

Heheh, Lich King: Ruler, Overlord, Evil King, Thread Necromancer... fear the Lich King, FEAR!! :smalltongue:

Dear gods, if he brings back the Link vs. Seph thread, even Sauron can't control the madness

Maybe this thread should get locked
from
EE

Edit
Oh and before i forget
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY


OH GODS, WHY DO YOU PUNISH ME? I SUFFER SO. NOOOOOOOOOO

i'm done

[Mr. Scaly]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY


OH GODS, WHY DO YOU PUNISH ME? I SUFFER SO. NOOOOOOOOOO



You must have done something bad in your life. Tsk tsk.

Now look what you've done? You had to post, which dragged me in...you could start a whole other 20 pages of talk. :-P

[Bago!!!]

Me and my bro are almost done with our four page summary. Give us another day an we'll be up to five.

Edit: Link vs. Seph? Now theres an idea! :smallbiggrin:

[EvilElitest]

You must have done something bad in your life. Tsk tsk.

Now look what you've done? You had to post, which dragged me in...you could start a whole other 20 pages of talk. :-P

oh touche

Bago, your devotion to Vs. threads is admirable, even though i'm going to counter everything you say (wink) but could you start a non dead thread. Also five pages? Dear gods, i'm going to have a field day, but the axis of evil will win through
from
EE
Edit
Oh and the LK lost to the Wk, i mean come on

[Bago!!!]

Of course the axis of evil will win. Just depends on which evil.... MY LIFE FOR AUIR!!!

Uhhh, I mean, NERZHUL!!!!!!!!


Join the Cult of the Damned, we have free donuts on fridays. :)

[EvilElitest]

Of course the axis of evil will win. Just depends on which evil.... MY LIFE FOR AUIR!!!

Uhhh, I mean, NERZHUL!!!!!!!!

Yeah you might want to get your lords straight


Join the Cult of the Damned, we have free donuts on fridays. :)

Oh donuts, hmmmmmmm

I resist you temptations for sauron offers Cookies and lobster, far greater than donuts

Really though start a new thread please, my and WG are just in shock here
from
EE

[Rowanomicon]

Reviving this is a terrible thing to do. It's not even evil; it's just plain wrong.

I almost feel like boycotting this thread out of protest and not posting in it anymore.
However, I cannot leave my comrades to face this alone. Oh, and Sauron is my homeboy.

I look forward to reading tearing apart your five page essay.

[EvilElitest]

Reviving this is a terrible thing to do. It's not even evil; it's just plain wrong.

As I said, the LK is a vile epic necromancer


I almost feel like boycotting this thread out of protest and not posting in it anymore.
However, I cannot leave my comrades to face this alone. Oh, and Sauron is my homeboy.

For Sauron

I can see in you eyes, the fear that would take the life from me
A day may come where people learn how to debate against the Axis of Evil until they are forced to admit defeat and stop protecting the forces of evil, a day where bravery and decency emerge victorious
But it is not this day, this day we brutally and cruelly destroy opposing arguments and reduce three days of hard and honest labor into nothingness.
For between the Arrogent Corsican Elitest, our devoted Rowan, and the facially impaired (no offense) goblin, we can destroy everything


I look forward to reading tearing apart your five page essay.

It will be fun, shall all three of use respond to it indivisually or shall we work out a plan?
from
EE

[Rowanomicon]

I think we should work out a plan via PM.
Too bad my PM box is 90% full...
Possibly e-mail then.

EDIT: Oh, but EE, I'm not that worried. I suspect that, as most, Bajo will simply prove which of the possible ending I predicted is more likely. Sauron still can't lose.

[EvilElitest]

I think we should work out a plan via PM.
Too bad my PM box is 90% full...
Possibly e-mail then.

EDIT: Oh, but EE, I'm not that worried. I suspect that, as most, Bajo will simply prove which of the possible ending I predicted is more likely. Sauron still can't lose.

1. Well you could empty it
2. Maybe we could plan here as we wait, i mean it isn't like anyone can do anything about it
3. The vs. thread people need their own thread simple for talking tatics

Edit
Ah i recall your endings, even i couldn't stop them. The irony is, maybe we could simple counter everything just by using quotes


On that subject, i'll counter specifics about army sizes, monesters, places, orginization, powers, and mindset of the two sides
You can counter magic
And WG can counter tatics

Does that work out?
from
EE

[Rowanomicon]

Ah i recall your endings, even i couldn't stop them. The irony is, maybe we could simple counter everything just by using quotes

I hereby suggest that we use as many quotes as possible (from this thread and others) and as little non-quote text as possible. It's always better that if we show that they were proved wrong before they even started. Haha!

Also, I think we shoud see the essay before we make a plan for countering it. We can all likely add to the arguments for each point.

[EvilElitest]

I hereby suggest that we use as many quotes as possible (from this thread and others) and as little non-quote text as possible. It's always better that if we show that they were proved wrong before they even started. Haha!

Brillent


Also, I think we shoud see the essay before we make a plan for countering it. We can all likely add to the arguments for each point.
Alright, but we'll be ready for them


So any point you think worth remembering right now?
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

I know how it will end.

Sauron can't take anymore arguing over his badarsedness and wills himself out of existence. LK, since he can't do that, goes mad and spends the rest of his days being cared for by death knights and banshees.

[hylian chozo]

I know how it will end.

Sauron can't take anymore arguing over his badarsedness and wills himself out of existence. LK, since he can't do that, goes mad and spends the rest of his days being cared for by death knights and banshees.

Alternatively, Sauron can start burning threads.

[warty goblin]

1. Well you could empty it
2. Maybe we could plan here as we wait, i mean it isn't like anyone can do anything about it
3. The vs. thread people need their own thread simple for talking tatics

Edit
Ah i recall your endings, even i couldn't stop them. The irony is, maybe we could simple counter everything just by using quotes


On that subject, i'll counter specifics about army sizes, monesters, places, orginization, powers, and mindset of the two sides
You can counter magic
And WG can counter tatics

Does that work out?
from
EE

I'm online with tactical critiques (assuming this thread's resurrection does not make me decide to volunteer for "warg feeding" duty that is.)

All orc legions assembled and standing by, ready for action. The troll are assembled and scratching themselves, the balrog is playing "pin the whip on the wizard", and I've got the Witch King on hold. Oh, the wolves are licking themselves as well, everybody's ready to go.

[Mr. Scaly]

Good. I'll go make some snacks. Do orcish hordes prefer pop corn or Tostitos?

[EvilElitest]

I'm online with tactical critiques (assuming this thread's resurrection does not make me decide to volunteer for "warg feeding" duty that is.)

All orc legions assembled and standing by, ready for action. The troll are assembled and scratching themselves, the balrog is playing "pin the whip on the wizard", and I've got the Witch King on hold. Oh, the wolves are licking themselves as well, everybody's ready to go.
For sauron, the Nazgul are getting out of rehab and will join


good. I'll go make some snacks. Do orcish hordes prefer pop corn or Tostitos?

Orc king- I only eat the flesh of my enemies......and pop corn
from
EE

[Rowanomicon]

I think it would definitely be wise to start looking over the old Sauron Vs threads for things that will be useful. Something I know we'll want to find is WG's explaination of the Middle Earth magic system fromt eh SvV thread. We might also want to see if we can iron out the details on that and possibly get more references to cannon material to back it up.
I definitely think that my "possible endings" points will be worth re-visiting and unless Bajo's essays seriously addresses them it will be useless.

In short I think we she start loking for good already posted material to quote when we start countering with quote only information. :smallamused:

EDIT: OK I went through my sunscribed threads and found all the ones that might have relevent quotes in them. There might be relevant quotes on the boards somewhere else. If you know of where please tell...

Tag Team thread: 18 pages http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68362&page=18
Randall Flagg Vs Sauron: 3 pages http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68881&page=3
WK v LK: 6 pages http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67267&page=6
Rasitlin Vs Sauron: 4 pages http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67965&page=4
WK v Voldemort: 1 page http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68060
On the "vs Sauron" threads: 4 pages http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67257&page=4
Sauron vs Batman: 3 pages http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66986&page=3
Sauron Vs Ultimate Superman: 1 page http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67165
Sauron Vs Voldemort (may it R.I.P): 43 pages http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58451&page=43
This thread: 22 pages

Over all that's 105 pages. If we split that three ways that's 35 pages each.
So,
Me: First 35 pages of Sauron Vs Voldemort thread
EE: This thread, plus the last 8 of the Sauro Vs Voldemort thread, plus Raistlin Vs Sauron, and WK vs Voldy
WG: Everything else I mentioned

Sound good everyone?
Look over your assigned pages and find all good quotable text, then compile it iin a word document (with the quote code still around it so we know who it was posted by and such) or something and save it for the appropriate moment in the upcoming discussion. I'm sure we can counter practiacally everything anyone has to say with a quote, maybe multiple quotes...

[EvilElitest]

E: This thread, plus the last 8 of the Sauro Vs Voldemort thread, plus Raistlin Vs Sauron, and WK vs Voldy

I'll star tomorrow, if my connection doesn't fail.

Nice idea, we counter it before it starts
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

I'd just like to go on record saying that all of you are insane. Or obsessed. Maybe both.

Also...how the heck did Sauron vs Voldemort last 42 pages?!

[warty goblin]

I'd just like to go on record saying that all of you are insane. Or obsessed. Maybe both.

Also...how the heck did Sauron vs Voldemort last 42 pages?!

Yep, it did indeed go 43 pages, although the last few were a sort of after-action debriefing/joke section on the part of all participants. I won the thread I think by page 38 or so with a joke, which just goes to show what an awesome thread it was.

And yesseses we are obsessed, aren't we Precious?? But insane? Insane? Is such a nice scaly, calling us insane... We make humorous arguments that win threads, and they callses us insane.


Also, given the boring stuff I get assigned to read, 35 pages of actual interesting stuff with humor and real conversation will be a positive pleasure, although due to the incoming volumes of work I have, I might not get to it for a few days. Honestly the debates we have on these boards take place at a far higher level than about 90% of my college course work.

Gentleposters, I thank you for the honor of your company.

[EvilElitest]

I'd just like to go on record saying that all of you are insane. Or obsessed. Maybe both.

Also...how the heck did Sauron vs Voldemort last 42 pages?!
1. Yes, yes we are
2. Meh, WG won that thread at 38 and it was just jokes from then on. Link vs. seph went on for 54, though i really won around 52.


Also, given the boring stuff I get assigned to read, 35 pages of actual interesting stuff with humor and real conversation will be a positive pleasure, although due to the incoming volumes of work I have, I might not get to it for a few days. Honestly the debates we have on these boards take place at a far higher level than about 90% of my college course work.

wow, that is kinda amazing, i feel very proud of the boards now


Gentleposters, I thank you for the honor of your company.

A toast to your honor WG, i must say you are one of the most intellegent and amusing members of this thread and it has been and honor to work alongside you for SAURON
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

At least I'm not being called 'stupid fat kobold!'
Sauron drives a pink hatchback!
And yeah...Warty is indeed cool. ^^

[EvilElitest]

At least I'm not being called 'stupid fat kobold!'
Sauron drives a pink hatchback!
And yeah...Warty is indeed cool. ^^

Don't worry mr. scaly, your my worthy foe, would i ever disrespect you like that stupid fat, oh come on you have to have seen that coming

I really love the strange bond these vs. threads bring about
from
EE

[Steven the Lich]

Don't worry mr. scaly, your my worthy foe, would i ever disrespect you like that stupid fat, oh come on you have to have seen that coming

I really love the strange bond these vs. threads bring about
from
EE

I noticed what you said EE, while typing up a small argument. I thought that in case Scaly Kobold didn't detect the white words, I could always point him out to them...
Alright, has the setting of all this changed from the beginning when Mordor was transfered to Azeroth? Post with quote, please.

[EvilElitest]

I noticed what you said EE, while typing up a small argument. I thought that in case Scaly Kobold didn't detect the white words, I could always point him out to them...

Thats the joke, we've been doing that for about five pages now



Alright, has the setting of all this changed from the beginning when Mordor was transfered to Azeroth? Post with quote, please.
Wait what?
from
EE

[Steven the Lich]

So, I believe it's been conclusively proven that Sauron would utterly own Voldemort. And then use his broken remains to fertilize Mordor. So, let's say we pit the Lord of the Rings against a more worthy foe. Arthas Ner'zhul, the Lich King. Warcraft fans will know all about him.

In terms of powers, they're polar opposites. The Lich King is all about cold and ice, Sauron is about heat and fire. The Lich King's centre of power, Icecrown Glacier, is an icy mountain of enormous size. Sauron's centre of power is Orodruin, Mt. Doom, an absolutely huge and temperamental volcano. Sauron's touch is described as hot enough to burn Gil-galad, last High King of the Elves, to death.

So if Mordor was somehow transplanted to Azeroth, and presumably neither Dark Lord would tolerate the other's presence, who would come out victorious in the battle between Northrend and Mordor? This is Sauron with the One Ring, and the Lich King with Frostmourne. Orcs vs Undead, Nazgul vs Death Knights, Trolls vs Abominations, Sauron vs The Lich King. Who wins? - Executor

Has the setting changed from Mordor being placed in Azeroth at all? Simple question to help me understand this topic better.

[EvilElitest]

Has the setting changed from Mordor being placed in Azeroth at all? Simple question to help me understand this topic better.

oh you've be reading the old argument. This thread was won a few weeks ago, but Bago say he has a counter point

It is more Northrend and Sauron controlled middle earth (remember he owns more than morder) are just right next to each other

I don't think Sauron accully attacks Northrend, but the LK has to attack, if he doesn't then sauron just builds up his massive army to even bigger lengths and it has been proven taht he would win if LK attacked
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

There was a reason I never planned to join this debate, but it seems I'm being dragged in now. ^^

Just out of curiosity, on the outside chance Sauron did decide to attack Northrend, how fast would his legions of orcs die from frigid temperatures, lack of food, and the subsequent cannibalism that would follow?

[Steven the Lich]

Technically, he wasn't the one coming up with a counter-point, he said he would, but then I got stuck with all the work...
And this argument is still in the same thread... you didn't win, it was a cease-fire because supporters have either given up, or converted to you because you are just so dang stubborn. Plus, your strategy is to keep fighting til people find it easier just to believe you... thats nothing to be proud of as it has been said.
Thank you Mr. Scaly, that point is one of the many others I have in my now... Let me check... 16 page argument and counterpoints... You hear that EE, 16 pages. :smalltongue: Bago!!! says he'll add in more stuff I missed, but I don't believe him...
Plus... I'm sure that if this is the case, Azeroth is the main world, which LK has advantage of hometerrain... more on the point, Sauron cannot bring his allies into Azeroth if it is his lands transplanted.
Lets see if the great Sauron is as almighty as said without his allies.
No Fleets (Wouldn't be much use against LKs necropolis' anyway), no oliphaunts... Easterlings could possibly have went to a rave of Saurons in Mordor, so they can come.
LK has everyone living (and a few unliving) in the world hating his guts, so if Sauron is half as good as he is, he doesn't need allies. (LK has no need for them for sure, though he has established friendships with Razormane clans).

[Bago!!!]

Its true, I am a lazy bastard.

Thanks for posting Steve, I was getting impatient. 16 pages? That long? DAMN! That means I may actuelyl have to read it...

Anyway, there is also the logtistics that would work against sauron's forces, and the fact that the undead aren't hindered by the icy frigided winds, are able to manuever the many mountains and other problems that could occur in an icy winter wonder land! WHOOT!

Plus, the terrible hunger is something they don't really need to focus on, plus the very land will rise up against Sauron (since Northrend is basically LKs domain). HOME FIELD ADVANTAGE TO THE MAX!

[EvilElitest]

There was a reason I never planned to join this debate, but it seems I'm being dragged in now. ^^

Just out of curiosity, on the outside chance Sauron did decide to attack Northrend, how fast would his legions of orcs die from frigid temperatures, lack of food, and the subsequent cannibalism that would follow?


The LK's land. No prob
1. It isn't that cold accully. you know why? Because apperently men wearing full plat armor and chain mail can walk around no problem at all. Wow
2. Sauron wouldn't attack unless he was attacked first most likely, not at least until after he created a large enough army. Remember, Rowan proved that Sauron can create whole armies in little time, ten thousand every six months. So if the LK doesn't attack, Sauron leans back and builds an even bigger army while keeping an eye on his foe with his eye and three seeing stones.
3. not that we know that the land isn't that cold and the orcs live in pretty cold climates normally, his army would be fine (he has snow trolls as well) to destroy the LK
4. Home terrain advantage? Please, hate to break it to you, but the LK doesn't even have a home terrain advantage, he hasn't even taken over nothrend. There are five whole races living on the continent who haven't been dominated, as well as a large human city. So he doesn't even totally control his own land, that is kinda sad
5. Northrend isn't even that defensive, like in the least. It has like one fortress and just open plain ground. Wow, that is defensive.
6. Sauron doesn't care if he losses his orcs, they can be replaced and the nazgul can go on suicidal attack missions against Frostwryms (bringing down as many as they can) and be fine. orcs can't be raised but can be replaced and nazgul come back. So any damage he does to hte LK is permanent



Technically, he wasn't the one coming up with a counter-point, he said he would, but then I got stuck with all the work...

Who are you?


And this argument is still in the same thread...
A long dead thread, techincally Bago pulled a necro


you didn't win, it was a cease-fire because supporters have either given up, or converted to you because you are just so dang stubborn.
Yeah, that is called losing, when the opponents leave or convert.


Plus, your strategy is to keep fighting til people find it easier just to believe you... thats nothing to be proud of as it has been said.
nobody countered my points (or Rowans, or Warty Goblins, i seem to get all the credit) and then gave up. If you can't counter something, then apparently you can't win. It is kinda simple.


Thank you Mr. Scaly, that point is one of the many others I have in my now... Let me check... 16 page argument and counterpoints... You hear that EE, 16 pages. :smalltongue: Bago!!! says he'll add in more stuff I missed, but I don't believe him...
you have over 16 bloody pages? dear gods in heave START A NEW THREAD


Plus... I'm sure that if this is the case, Azeroth is the main world, which LK has advantage of hometerrain... more on the point, Sauron cannot bring his allies into Azeroth if it is his lands transplanted.
1. no neutral forces,
2. Umm, no the LK's land is somehow right next to saruon's, the rest of Azeroth is just missing. It simple isn't their. Same with teh parts of middle earth that Sauron does not control
3. um, both sides start out with their forces. Sauron doesn't have any allies in the traditional sense, just his own forces


Lets see if the great Sauron is as almighty as said without his allies.
No Fleets (Wouldn't be much use against LKs necropolis' anyway), no oliphaunts... Easterlings could possibly have went to a rave of Saurons in Mordor, so they can come.
WFT, you can't win a vs. thread if you nerf the opponents. Sauron is at full power, that means full forces, full terrain, and full magic. Deal with it


LK has everyone living (and a few unliving) in the world hating his guts, so if Sauron is half as good as he is, he doesn't need allies. (LK has no need for them for sure, though he has established friendships with Razormane clans).
Wait, you are really inconsistent in your writing, are you saying this is a one on one or a Full LK against half of Saurons force. This threads means Both foes are at full strength with full miltary power


Plus, the terrible hunger is something they don't really need to focus on, plus the very land will rise up against Sauron (since Northrend is basically LKs domain). HOME FIELD ADVANTAGE TO THE MAX!
yawn, the LK has no control of the land of northrend itself, just an army based there

Also can you start a new thread please if you have so many pages

from
EE

[Selrahc]

Yeah, that is called losing, when the opponents leave or convert.

No. Not really.

Let me make an analogy; if you have been arguing with someone for ages about something and then a meteor falls out of the sky and kills them then nobody is arguing against you anymore. But you didn't win the argument, you just lost the opponent.

I'll make another analogy, if you are in an argument with someone, and then you jab them in the eye and they leave in disgust at that, did you win the argument? No, you just drove off your opponent, you didn't score an intelectual victory.

I was personally quite annoyed at the cult of Sauron mentality, and that it detracted from the fun of the thread. Seeing a bunch of guys in a circle of self congratulation, and acting as the entirely biased proclaimers of victory is just annoying.

[Mr. Scaly]

Oh God, what have I done? I just made a comment about orcs freezing to death and it turned into another huge debate...may Hironobu Sakaguchi forgive me if i brought it back to life. :smalleek:

[Lord_Asmodeus]

1. It isn't that cold accully. you know why? Because apperently men wearing full plat armor and chain mail can walk around no problem at all. Wow
I do hope you took the time to realize, technically, HES DEAD, cold doesn't bother him because hes a CORPSE, if anything the cold only helps him.

2. Sauron wouldn't attack unless he was attacked first most likely, not at least until after he created a large enough army. Remember, Rowan proved that Sauron can create whole armies in little time, ten thousand every six months. So if the LK doesn't attack, Sauron leans back and builds an even bigger army while keeping an eye on his foe with his eye and three seeing stones.
The Lich King also has experience sitting back and consolidating his forces, because while he may not be able to make orcs like Sauron, he can still gather forces in Northrend (killing more nerubians for his army, adding more of the indigenous population to his forces like the Tuskarr and the other Northrend dwelling creatures, I'm assuming these people are still here since they live in Northrend)

3. not that we know that the land isn't that cold and the orcs live in pretty cold climates normally, his army would be fine (he has snow trolls as well) to destroy the LK
dude Northrend is pretty much the North Pole, ITS COLD.

4. Home terrain advantage? Please, hate to break it to you, but the LK doesn't even have a home terrain advantage, he hasn't even taken over nothrend. There are five whole races living on the continent who haven't been dominated, as well as a large human city. So he doesn't even totally control his own land, that is kinda sad How is it "Sad" he hasn't had countless thousands of years to consolidate his power, in total he had about a hundred years, tops, probably more like 70

5. Northrend isn't even that defensive, like in the least. It has like one fortress and just open plain ground. Wow, that is defensive.
it is infact, NOT, it has a lot of different landscapes, and LOTS of mountains.

6. Sauron doesn't care if he losses his orcs, they can be replaced and the nazgul can go on suicidal attack missions against Frostwryms (bringing down as many as they can) and be fine. orcs can't be raised but can be replaced and nazgul come back. So any damage he does to hte LK is permanent

remind me how Nazgul come back and Orcs can't be raised? I really can't remember.

[EvilElitest]

No. Not really.

Let me make an analogy; if you have been arguing with someone for ages about something and then a meteor falls out of the sky and kills them then nobody is arguing against you anymore. But you didn't win the argument, you just lost the opponent.

Did the person counter your point before being hit by the rock?


I'll make another analogy, if you are in an argument with someone, and then you jab them in the eye and they leave in disgust at that, did you win the argument? No, you just drove off your opponent, you didn't score an intelectual victory.
you lose. When you resort to voleince , then you can't counter their point. you've admitted that they are right, and are just hurting them because your pissed. That isn't victory, that is just resorting to voleince

However here is my own analogy, you and another dude get into an argument about India or Russia are bigger. despite all of the evidence you provide, and all of the points you make, he still attack your points without countering them. Finally he calls you stubborn and ignorant, then runs away refusing to belive that India is physically smaller than Russia. Later he claims it was a stale mate.


I was personally quite annoyed at the cult of Sauron mentality, and that it detracted from the fun of the thread. Seeing a bunch of guys in a circle of self congratulation, and acting as the entirely biased proclaimers of victory is just annoying.
And i am personally quite annoyed at the cult of the Lk (not all bu some) bitter mentality, which detracts teh fun from the thread. Once unable to counter points and refusing to keep arguing, they simple walk about saying how unfair things are because they couldn't counter a point and then insistence the other side is wrong without providing any reasons. If you can't argue any longer fine, leave and go on with your life, enjoy. But you can't come back later and say "You didn't win" when you haven't countered the points. The thread died because of nobody countered the Sauron side's points. now its come back from the dead for a rematch apparently, but can't be buggered to start a new thread.



Oh God, what have I done? I just made a comment about orcs freezing to death and it turned into another huge debate...may Hironobu Sakaguchi forgive me if i brought it back to life.
Wow, i hope your happy


I do hope you took the time to realize, technically, HES DEAD, cold doesn't bother him because hes a CORPSE, if anything the cold only helps him.
I'm talking about the alliance troops that came up with arthas.



The Lich King also has experience sitting back and consolidating his forces, because while he may not be able to make orcs like Sauron, he can still gather forces in Northrend (killing more nerubians for his army, adding more of the indigenous population to his forces like the Tuskarr and the other Northrend dwelling creatures, I'm assuming these people are still here since they live in Northrend)
1. Nope they aren't still there, no neutral forces, they are just gone
2. The LK doesn't have experience sitting back, when he got his army he didn't wait until after he destroyed the already existing forces before attacking the humans


dude Northrend is pretty much the North Pole, ITS COLD.
and how can a whole army of humans wearing armor function fine then?


How is it "Sad" he hasn't had countless thousands of years to consolidate his power, in total he had about a hundred years, tops, probably more like 70
1. Says something doesn't it
2. But he attacked the Humans before even taking over his own land. That isn't good tatical thinking


it is infact, NOT, it has a lot of different landscapes, and LOTS of mountains.
forts? Castles? Defensive landscape?


remind me how Nazgul come back and Orcs can't be raised? I really can't remember.
1. when teh nazgul "die" their souls simple go back to morder and then they come back
2. The LK's undead magic doesn't work on creatures who's souls have been dominated by other evil beings, such as the eastern centaurs. Same principle with the orcs

Also where is I am undead. If i have to have a vs. thread, it would be nice to have him around

from
EE

[warty goblin]

People, could we possibly let this thread die again? It was dead once, and I don't think anybody really missed it.

If the argument persists I will of course do my part, but at this point I think pretty much all that can be said by either side has been said, so maybe letting it return to its grave is the thing to do.

[EvilElitest]

People, could we possibly let this thread die again? It was dead once, and I don't think anybody really missed it.

If the argument persists I will of course do my part, but at this point I think pretty much all that can be said by either side has been said, so maybe letting it return to its grave is the thing to do.

Bago, if you really want to pull out this 16 something page essay, then start anther thread, this one is long past dead
from
EE

[Lord_Asmodeus]

However here is my own analogy, you and another dude get into an argument about India or Russia are bigger. despite all of the evidence you provide, and all of the points you make, he still attack your points without countering them. Finally he calls you stubborn and ignorant, then runs away refusing to belive that India is physically smaller than Russia. Later he claims it was a stale mate. no offense, but this is a ****ty analogy as it is an actual fact that Russia is bigger, the current debate isn't as clear cut, hence the actual need for a debate in the first place.






I'm talking about the alliance troops that came up with arthas.

It was a game, plus they mention repeatedly that they're cold as f-ing hell, and they want to go back.




1. Nope they aren't still there, no neutral forces, they are just gone
2. The LK doesn't have experience sitting back, when he got his army he didn't wait until after he destroyed the already existing forces before attacking the humans
1. Didn't you mention the neutral forces yourself? or did i misinterpret?
2. Well he probably wasn't doing all that much while Kel'Thuzad carried out his plans

and how can a whole army of humans wearing armor function fine then? again, it was a game, and they were still bitching to high hell about how cold it was


1. Says something doesn't it
2. But he attacked the Humans before even taking over his own land. That isn't good tatical thinking

1. Yea it says that the Lich King laid ruin to a powerful land ruled by mighty kingdoms in a far shorter amount of time than Sauron and his patron did
2. Well you forget some things, one the reason for his creation was to weaken the humans in the first place, plus he was working through agents in Lordaeron, he was probably still doing some conquering in Northrend, plus its not like theirs a whole lot of resistance, theirs a few minor kingdoms and the shattered remains of an ancient kingdom HE DESTROYED, he didn't really have to worry.


forts? Castles? Defensive landscape? /shrug, I'd have to check, there are alot of defensive mountains and since the Undead pretty much rule Northrend I would imagine their are a lot of their structures dotting its landscape.




2. The LK's undead magic doesn't work on creatures who's souls have been dominated by other evil beings, such as the eastern centaurs. Same principle with the orcs to be fair while they never say what powers these are, it seems most likely its the Old Gods, beings of such power and evil it took all the Titans to chain them up, and they couldn't even kill them, now to put that into context, Sargeras, a single Titan out of a whole race, goes around destroying worlds (with the help of the demons, but he can do it himself, he just doesn't feel the need) comparing the Lich King to them is like comparing Sauron to Morgoth or Ilúvatar (The Titans created worlds, and they feared the Old Gods)

Also where is I am undead. If i have to have a vs. thread, it would be nice to have him around

from
EE[/QUOTE]

[Mr. Scaly]

The short kobold pulls out an assault rifle and shoots the thread in the face. He riddles its corpse with bullets just to make sure it's dead.

[WalkingTarget]

*sigh*

*grumbles to self for a minute*


dude Northrend is pretty much the North Pole, ITS COLD.

Melkor's original stronghold of Utumno was in the frigid northern regions of Arda and was where the orcs were first bred. There wasn't much arctic action for the rest of the history, but at least until Melkor's first imprisonment orcs were active in a cold environment.


remind me how Nazgul come back and Orcs can't be raised? I really can't remember.

The thing about Nazgul is that at Ford of Bruinen, just outside Rivendell, they were hit with the flood and their horses were killed. I think it's open to interpretation, but one way to read things is that the Nazgul were "killed" too and had to return to Mordor not just for new clothes and mounts, but for new bodies as well. I don't know about being unraisable (and don't remember points in this thread where it was finalized) but orcs wouldn't be beyond eating or otherwise mutilating their dead to prevent them from being useful.


you lose. When you resort to voleince , then you can't counter their point. you've admitted that they are right, and are just hurting them because your pissed. That isn't victory, that is just resorting to voleince

You're agreeing with him on the violence point, EE, if you didn't realize that (hard to tell from the wording here). His point is not really about violence anyway. It's about somebody being a big enough jerk that the other debater just leaves (and I'm not saying that anybody here is a jerk, this is the hypothetical eye-poker). This is not a "win" in a debating sense (nobody has convinced the other of his point of view). When these threads start to look like a political debate wherein each side uses their own batch of statistics and neither side recognizes the other's, if one side just stops posting it's still not a "win" for the other side. You seem to think it is based on numerous comments saying you've "won" simply because you posted last, but that doesn't make it so. They've just recognized that it's not going to be resolved and they've moved on.

Another analogy if you will: Say that I'm listening to Rush Limbaugh's radio show and I disagree with him. The format of the program is such that I have the option of calling in and voicing my opinion. Having heard enough of his treatment of other callers I can decide that my argument, no matter how well thought out, will not be able to sway him. So instead of entering a debate in which I cannot influence his opinion, I simply change the radio station. This does not mean that Mr. Limbaugh has swayed me to his way of thinking. I simply don't care enough to respond anymore.

*goes and buries what's left after something scaly shoots it at a crossroads, at midnight, face down, with a stake through its heart*

[Selrahc]

However here is my own analogy, you and another dude get into an argument about India or Russia are bigger. despite all of the evidence you provide, and all of the points you make, he still attack your points without countering them. Finally he calls you stubborn and ignorant, then runs away refusing to belive that India is physically smaller than Russia. Later he claims it was a stale mate.

Uh... now imagine it the other way around? With the guy claiming Russia was bigger leaving?



I don't know about being unraisable (and don't remember points in this thread where it was finalized) but orcs wouldn't be beyond eating or otherwise mutilating their dead to prevent them from being useful.

Well the logic behind that particular thing was that because Sauron is in control of the orcs, they can't be raised. In Warcraft lore, Centaurs can't be raised because they are in thrall to a dark power.

However, I did counter that point, by saying that the specifics of the deal the centaurs have with their dark power, and the nature of the dark power in question are unknown, while other beings in thrall to a dark power in Warcraft can be raised without problems(Including the Warcraft orcs).

[EvilElitest]

no offense, but t
his is a ****ty analogy as it is an actual fact that Russia is bigger, the current debate isn't as clear cut, hence the actual need for a debate in the first place.


True, but so was the stabbing the person in the eye with a pencil. This isn't an analogy for this thread, just a analogy for silly arguments


It was a game, plus they mention repeatedly that they're cold as f-ing hell, and they want to go back.
1. It being a game doesn't matter
2. Even if they were cold, they apperently were able to wear full plate armor and chain without any furs or coats and were apparently still able to act normaly
3. They did complain about wanting to go back, but that were still able to function in the weather





1. Didn't you mention the neutral forces yourself? or did i misinterpret?
2. Well he probably wasn't doing all that much while Kel'Thuzad carried out his plans
again, it was a game, and they were still bitching to high hell about how cold it was
1. eh?
2. then why didn't he destroy the trolls and walrus folk, its not like anyone would notice. Hell he hasn't even destroyed that human city
3. I bitch to high hell about how cold it is down here in New York but in reality i'm fine.



1. Yea it says that the Lich King laid ruin to a powerful land ruled by mighty kingdoms in a far shorter amount of time than Sauron and his patron did
2. Well you forget some things, one the reason for his creation was to weaken the humans in the first place, plus he was working through agents in Lordaeron, he was probably still doing some conquering in Northrend, plus its not like theirs a whole lot of resistance, theirs a few minor kingdoms and the shattered remains of an ancient kingdom HE DESTROYED, he didn't really have to worry.
1. Yep, and that his far more inexperience and has had less time to become a proper dark lord
2. According to one of the WOW D&D books, he is having trouble both with the blue dragons and the trolls. As none of these races have any allies and he has had what, 24 years of control of the land why didn't he just finish them before moving on. Also if you take into account his organization tatics you have a problem



/shrug, I'd have to check, there are alot of defensive mountains and since the Undead pretty much rule Northrend I would imagine their are a lot of their structures dotting its landscape.

Defensive mountains that are occupited by giants (not pro undead giants) and maugnatars (or whatever they are called). I don't think he has any real fortresses


to be fair while they never say what powers these are, it seems most likely its the Old Gods, beings of such power and evil it took all the Titans to chain them up, and they couldn't even kill them, now to put that into context, Sargeras, a single Titan out of a whole race, goes around destroying worlds (with the help of the demons, but he can do it himself, he just doesn't feel the need) comparing the Lich King to them is like comparing Sauron to Morgoth or Ilúvatar (The Titans created worlds, and they feared the Old Gods)
Alright, and the orcs and other evil creatues were created by Morgoth and Sauron by altering already existing powerful beings created by Iluvatar, same principle
By the by, can demons be raised as undead?



Melkor's original stronghold of Utumno was in the frigid northern regions of Arda and was where the orcs were first bred. There wasn't much arctic action for the rest of the history, but at least until Melkor's first imprisonment orcs were active in a cold environment
don't forget the elves (from whom the orcs come from) went across the artic wastes.



Another analogy if you will: Say that I'm listening to Rush Limbaugh's radio show and I disagree with him. The format of the program is such that I have the option of calling in and voicing my opinion. Having heard enough of his treatment of other callers I can decide that my argument, no matter how well thought out, will not be able to sway him.
I'd make the call anyways, in the hopes that i could hurt his credibility in his audience, as other people like you who don't like him will hear this call and agree with the caller. But if i didn't call (understandable) the i wouldn't even have started the argument and so he walks away wit the last word.
I'd would love to pull a john steward on that


Uh... now imagine it the other way around? With the guy claiming Russia was bigger leaving?
No because he is right. Russia is bigger than India, and the world is round. He would keep providing evidence to prove his point until the other person ether left, gave up, converted, or everybody watching this argument told him to go away. If he leaves, he gives his foe the credibility of being the last guy standing.

Well the logic behind that particular thing was that because Sauron is in control of the orcs, they can't be raised. In Warcraft lore, Centaurs can't be raised because they are in thrall to a dark power.
meh, pretty much, it is also the "deal with the dark powers" thing



However, I did counter that point, by saying that the specifics of the deal the centaurs have with their dark power, and the nature of the dark power in question are unknown, while other beings in thrall to a dark power in Warcraft can be raised without problems(Including the Warcraft orcs).

However, dark deals with great evils can prevent you from being raised and orcs are certainly thralls to a great evil, being created by it no less

The warcraft orcs were not totally under the control of the dark powers, because well, they broke free


*lights what is left on fire with napalm*
Please just start a new thread
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

One other point of interest on Middle-earth politics before I stray waaay off topic for a while. The "mapped" portion of Middle-earth (i.e. where the action of the books take place) is pretty much the only part of the world not under Sauron's control as of the end of the Third Age, as the Men in the Western lands are the only ones to have dealings with the Eldar and are therefore the only ones with knowledge of the Valar or of Eru Illuvatar. I forget how big the mapped portion of Middle-earth is supposed to be, but it's not that big compared to the rest of the world. Make of that what you will.

Anyway...


I'd make the call anyways, in the hopes that i could hurt his credibility in his audience, as other people like you who don't like him will hear this call and agree with the caller. But if i didn't call (understandable) the i wouldn't even have started the argument and so he walks away wit the last word.
I'd would love to pull a john steward on that

Ok, let's make the call then (and let's make this a hypothetical argumentative call-in show host as I chose Mr. Limbaugh simply as a f'r instance). I proceed to argue with him until the end of his program at which point he gets the last word (because it's his show, so there :smalltongue: ). I've now spent time arguing with a brick wall. Maybe other people agree with me, maybe not but as they haven't called in we never hear from them. If I decide to never tune in to the program again, does that mean that he "won" the argument? Neither person actually debating (i.e. not the audience, but the participants) has managed to sway the other so how is that anything but a draw? If you could take some sort of poll of everyone listening to the debate/reading the thread (and I'm sure that this is usually a much larger group than the people actively posting) to see who they thought "won" then maybe something could be determined on the outcome, but otherwise if neither side has conceded there's no "winner".

Your obsession with "getting the last word" in a debate is irrelevant. I didn't see any resolution coming in the Sauron vs Voldemort thread after a certain point so I simply stopped posting (looks like my last post was on page 25 out of 43). Ditto hadn't convinced me of anything, I'd just realized that there was no way to convince him otherwise so I stopped trying to do so.

These arguments often seem to resolve down to:

Person 1: "I present this evidence as my reasoning for believing statement X."
Person 2: "I see you're evidence. This is insufficient to convince me of statement X."
Person 1: "Are you sure you fully understand this evidence? I think it satisfies the requirements for statement X due to reasoning Y."
Person 2: "Yes I understand reasoning Y, but I am still unconvinced of statement X as I feel that reasoning Y is insufficient."
Person 1: "How about that evidence by reasoning Z?"
ad nauseum

One side has their reasons and is unable to convince the other side that these reasons are enough to admit defeat. Since this can go back and forth pretty much forever (since, unlike a formal debate, there are no time limits here) some of the participants might just go away.

Hmm... It seems your victory conditions are different than in a normal debate. Instead of "persuade opponents to my way of thinking" it seems to be "silence the opposition."

That being said, I'm going to follow my own example from above and stop reading this thread. Note that I in no way concede defeat in any way, to anybody by this action, nor do I declare victory. This is simply no longer worth the effort.

[Selrahc]

1. It being a game doesn't matter
2. Even if they were cold, they apperently were able to wear full plate armor and chain without any furs or coats and were apparently still able to act normaly
3. They did complain about wanting to go back, but that were still able to function in the weather

It being a game obviously does matter. Because they aren't going to redesign the entirety of the system to deal with the effects of cold for three maps. They aren't going to redesign models to incorporate fur cloaks and warm clothes just for a handful of levels.


As none of these races have any allies and he has had what, 24 years of control of the land why didn't he just finish them before moving on.

For a few reasons. The lich king is under pressure from his bosses to start the conquest of the world and summon the burning legion, so total control is not a priority. Total control is not a neccesity either, because the blue dragons and trolls don't represent a great threat to the lich king. Given the absence of neccesity, and the presence of a spur to move quickly, the Lich King is then faced with the difficulty of attempting to eliminate two entire races of creatures, who have gigantic wastelands of ice to hide in, and thrive in the weather. So he has the other reason to not wipe out the two races... it would be pretty hard to find them, and pretty hard to kill them, since Ice Trolls are large and well organized warrior tribes, and blue dragons are gigantic creatures who can smash whole platoons.




However, dark deals with great evils can prevent you from being raised and orcs are certainly thralls to a great evil, being created by it no less

But with no knowledge of the nature of the deal with the Centaurs, or the nature of the power they dealt with, you can't make the claim that orcs can't be raised.

Especially since you have no in universe thing from Lord of the Rings showing you anything of the sort.


No because he is right. Russia is bigger than India, and the world is round. He would keep providing evidence to prove his point until the other person ether left, gave up, converted, or everybody watching this argument told him to go away. If he leaves, he gives his foe the credibility of being the last guy standing.

Uh... no. What you have there is the exact same scenario.

I was asking who would have won if the Russia guy gets fed up with his opponent and leaves, irregardless of whether he is right or not. Does that mean that the India guy has proved his point? According to your rules of debating it does. I am saying that that is a nonsensical position.

[Rowanomicon]

Well, I wasn't going to respond to this in the hopes that it would die and I may not post here again, we'll see, but for now it seems as if this can't die.

I'm in the same boat as WG, as soon as this si real I'll start doing my work. After all I'm in Guatemala on vacation, this debate is not priority one.

Anyway, first of all I'd like to kick everyone in the head and say "STOP WHINING!"

Ahem, now that that's been taken care of, on with business.

The problem with the idea that you have to convince the other side is, quite simply, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CONVINCE THE OTHER SIDE. While I know that I am a reasonable individual and, given enough evidence, will believe you side (note that I am also a skeptic and will not believe your side until you provide enough evidence and reasoning and even then I will be open to other theories if they provide more/better evidence and reasoning) it is my eperience with people that, for the most part, they make up their mind first and cannot be swayed either way.

Also, the problem with polls is that they are popularity contests and seeing who more people like is neither evidence, nor ligic.

In other words each person must make up their mind individually as to what conclusion they think the evidence and logic supports.
While evidence and logic are real things and, in fact, will only support one (or a limited number of) conclusion(s), people are not perfect and often believe things to be what they are not.

So, while I believe that (most of) my points were not countered and no good enough evidence or logic was presented to make be believe msot other points everyone is free to believe the same about different points.

However, from what i has seen, the only point most people made (and are making) is "I whine a lot!" and that's just plain stupid.

People talked about making a new sub-forum for Vs threads. I think there should be a new sub-forum (preferably on a different website) for whining and (thinly veiled) personal attacks.

[EvilElitest]

It being a game obviously does matter. Because they aren't going to redesign the entirety of the system to deal with the effects of cold for three maps. They aren't going to redesign models to incorporate fur cloaks and warm clothes just for a handful of levels.


That doesn't matter, the designers reasons are irrelvant, the point remains, the guys in Full plate armor could walk around perfectly fine in Northrend


For a few reasons. The lich king is under pressure from his bosses to start the conquest of the world and summon the burning legion, so total control is not a priority. Total control is not a neccesity either, because the blue dragons and trolls don't represent a great threat to the lich king. Given the absence of neccesity, and the presence of a spur to move quickly, the Lich King is then faced with the difficulty of attempting to eliminate two entire races of creatures, who have gigantic wastelands of ice to hide in, and thrive in the weather. So he has the other reason to not wipe out the two races... it would be pretty hard to find them, and pretty hard to kill them, since Ice Trolls are large and well organized warrior tribes, and blue dragons are gigantic creatures who can smash whole platoons.
1. Then why didn't the burning legion mind when he wiped out the neubians?
2. Ok, then what about the seven years after the "rise of the lich King"? He still hasn't wiped them out, or the forsakon for that matter
3. The trolls and the dragons are described as a threat to him in the roleplaying game
4. If he had attacked the dragons from the start, they would have had no allies and no leadership. His hesitance has give them power. Same with the trolls
5. Why hasn't he destroyed that last human city?



But with no knowledge of the nature of the deal with the Centaurs, or the nature of the power they dealt with, you can't make the claim that orcs can't be raised.

Yes i can, because we know that dark deals can protect races from being raised, and orcs are dark creations of Sauron. I mean come on, some of your own guys accepted this WAY back in the thread
Also, bear in mind, the LK does have limits on his raising ability, and from what i can tell it seems that it works both ways.



Especially since you have no in universe thing from Lord of the Rings showing you anything of the sort.
eh?



Uh... no. What you have there is the exact same scenario.

I was asking who would have won if the Russia guy gets fed up with his opponent and leaves, irregardless of whether he is right or not. Does that mean that the India guy has proved his point? According to your rules of debating it does. I am saying that that is a nonsensical position.
the pro India sized guys would present his point, unless everything i know about the world is screwed up his points would not make sense. The russian guy would present his far more logical points. Now the nutty guy refuses to accept that point, so he tries to counter the other guys points. Now we all agrees that his points will fail and after countering his points, the Russian guy could leave yes, but only after countering the points. If the Russian leaves without even bothering, he is giving the idea of victory to the other guy. Now we all know the nutty guy is wrong if nobody bothers to explain to him why he is wrong

Now this is not really that relevant, as both sides here do have a point. However before this thread was brought back from the netherworld:smallmad: , one sides points were not countered. If you or any other pro lich king side people felt the other side was wrong, then you should have countered the points. I feel on some other threads that the other people are wrong, but I leave because i really don't feel like arguing with them anymore. Thus, i do leave their points uncountered. If i left your point about the gameplay uncountered, then you could pretty much assume it was right until countered

now back on topic, can we let this damn thread die?
from
EE
edit


People talked about making a new sub-forum for Vs threads. I think there should be a new sub-forum (preferably on a different website) for whining and (thinly veiled) personal attacks.
we do, its called real life :smallwink:

[Mr. Scaly]

The short kobold banishes this thread to the Seventh layer of the Abyss.

[Rowanomicon]

The Dark One seals the Abyss and destroys it with the chaotic power of the elements of the 4E cosmology plain of choas in which the Abyss now resides.

[EvilElitest]

The Dark One seals the Abyss and destroys it with the chaotic power of the elements of the 4E cosmology plain of choas in which the Abyss now resides.

All of the pain 4E inflict upon gamers destorys this thread. It suffers every Kenny death
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

Is it true that they banned the bard? How could they do that? Sure, it was the Enrique Glasias of DnD...but killing them are just so much fun! :D

[Lord_Asmodeus]

That doesn't matter, the designers reasons are irrelvant, the point remains, the guys in Full plate armor could walk around perfectly fine in Northrend

So basically what you're saying is that because in The Battle For Middle Earth 2 the Witch King can be killed by normal men and heroes can come back again and again that they can in the whole LOTR universe? no, neither of those things is true, BECAUSE ITS GAME MECHANICS. According the FLUFF, the North is cold enough to kill unprotected people easily, and people who go up there usually DIE.

[EvilElitest]

So basically what you're saying is that because in The Battle For Middle Earth 2 the Witch King can be killed by normal men and heroes can come back again and again that they can in the whole LOTR universe?

Battle for middle earth isn't cannon, Warcraft III


no, neither of those things is true, BECAUSE ITS GAME MECHANICS. According the FLUFF, the North is cold enough to kill unprotected people easily, and people who go up there usually DIE.
Then by game mechanics the LK has not hit points. If it was so cold, then they wouldn't wear armor. The designers lazyness ruined your point


Also they never say that it is deathly cold
from
EE

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Battle for middle earth isn't cannon, Warcraft III

That makes no sense, the game mechanics of warcraft 3 have never been purported to be actual fluff canon, just the story.


Then by game mechanics the LK has not hit points. If it was so cold, then they wouldn't wear armor. The designers lazyness ruined your point

no it ruined yours


Also they never say that it is deathly cold
from
EE

yea, it has been.

[EvilElitest]

That makes no sense, the game mechanics of warcraft 3 have never been purported to be actual fluff canon, just the story.

yes they have, as proof for the LKs power. We determine the powers of the LK from the evidence. If you disprove of this evidence, i can just as easily disprove of pro LK evidence. You can't have it both ways.
Unless word of god says that they were in fact not wearing armor after all (or any of the other characters seen from the tailors of the new expansion) or at least a hand wave explanation, i'm going to say it isn't that cold.
you've only offered a reason for why the designers had them wear armor, you didn't show proof they didn't in fact canonically wear armor



no it ruined yours
Not really, because no matter what explanation you offer it doesn't change the fact that they are their while wearing full plate armor
Also it is true fluff sense, let me break it down
1. The alliance troops wear armor
2. The alliance troops went up to northrend
3. Their is no mention of them not wearing armor, or having to accommodate the weather
4. Their is evidence of them hanging out in the cold without a problem
5. Their is no mention what so ever of them dying of the cold




yea, it has been.

Yawn, proof? It says that it is cold, not deathly cold. Hell the alliance and hoard are marching a freaking army up there as we speak
from
EE

[konfeta]

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilElitest
Battle for middle earth isn't cannon, Warcraft III

That makes no sense, the game mechanics of warcraft 3 have never been purported to be actual fluff canon, just the story.

I hate to join in on this monster (which I predicted about 15 pages ago to be doomed to failure as a debate), but Mr. Scary Face Avatar has a point.

You CANNOT use game mechanics to support a lore argument. Otherwise an Orc Peon can build up an entire Orc Stongold in about 30 minutes. Otherwise Dragons would never tire in flight. Otherwise heroes that die in battle would be back in 5 minutes tops. Blizzard themselves said that game mechanics and the lore are different, there is a trope that describes this situation perfectly. It's next to physically impossible to simulate lore details in an RTS and have any semblance of balance or fun in it.

And to EE, points like that one are the reason people get frustrated debating this with you. You just say something, assume it's correct, and any points that counter it get handwaved away by "you are wrong, <insert nonsense reason that is filled with twisted and contradictory to other points logic>".

[EvilElitest]

I hate to join in on this monster (which I predicted about 15 threads ago to be doomed to failure as a debate), but Mr. Scary Face Avatar has a point.

You CANNOT use game mechanics to support a lore argument. Otherwise an Orc Peon can build up an entire Orc Stongold in about 30 minutes. Otherwise Dragons would never tire in flight. Otherwise heroes that die in battle would be back in 5 minutes tops. Blizzard themselves said that game mechanics and the lore are different, there is a trope that describes this situation perfectly. It's next to physically impossible to simulate lore details in an RTS and have any semblance of balance or fun in it.

Your right, if the fluff disagrees otherwise. If it comes to fluff vs. cruch, fluff (or meat) wins. But their is (as yet) no proof that northrend is cold enough to kill you. On the contrary, their is a whole army attacking them at current


And to EE, points like that one are the reason people get frustrated debating this with you. You just say something, assume it's correct, and any points that counter it get handwaved away by "you are wrong, <insert nonsense reason that is filled with twisted and contradictory to other points logic>".
How so? I"m basing my points off evidence. If you can provide me evidence that the northrend is deathly cold then my point is moot (and by deathly i mean you will die if you go up their period. My point is perfectly valid, I saw guys in armor worknig fine (and in the lore Arthas did in fact march and army up their)
because i provided evidence to support my point. Provide me evidence to prove me wrong.

from
EE

[warty goblin]

If I might ask a quick question- do the humans appear in plate armor etc only during gameplay or actual cutscenes (I honestly don't know, I stopped playing WCIII after like two or three human missions)? Because if its only gameplay than it pretty clearly isn't canon, no developer is going to spend the resources it would require to make a bunch of different models for a few levels after all. The result from this is pretty inconclusive then, Northrend could be cold enough to kill, it could not be, the question is simply unanswered. Cutscenes on the other hand being custom made for the scene in question I would consider in this case to be canon- the 'true' account of the story if you will. If guys are running around and doing OK in large amounts of steel and small amounts of insulation during a cutscene, I would consider it pretty conclusive evidence that Northrend is not in fact lethaly cold.

Although as WT points out, the actual coldness of Northrend is perhaps somehwhat irrelevant as far as orcs are concerned. Orcs are known after all to be A) Originally created in very cold parts of the world, and B) Superhumanly tough to begin with.

[EvilElitest]

Yes they do wear armor during cut scenes, nice point. Also during game play in WOW they can walk around up their
from
EE

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Yes they do wear armor during cut scenes, nice point. Also during game play in WOW they can walk around up their
from
EE

are you seriously trying to use game mechanics AGAIN? Plus I don't remember any actual cutscenes that didn't use in game graphics set in Northrend, the only thing I could remember that would fit is the battle between Arthas and Illidan, and Arthas was dead and Illidan was a demonic sorcerer of great power.

[EvilElitest]

are you seriously trying to use game mechanics AGAIN? Plus I don't remember any actual cutscenes that didn't use in game graphics set in Northrend, the only thing I could remember that would fit is the battle between Arthas and Illidan, and Arthas was dead and Illidan was a demonic sorcerer of great power.
cut scenes are fluff, are you telling me they aren't?
Prove to me how deadly the temperature is in northrend. by all means, i'll admit i'm wrong
from
EE

[Matar]

Im new here.

I am also bored.

So imma try my hand at this...


1.True, from what i gather the LK out numbers sauron. But

Seems so. The dudes army is endless, really. The more the people he kills, the larger his army becomes. The Lich King is also great at controlling people, turning the most holy as Paladins (Immune to undeath by virture of being a Paladin) into servents. Well, the most holy of them was able to controll his mind and stuff, but his body was forfit.



A) Sauron has a amazing defensible postion

Let me ask a few things. How easy is it for troops to get from point A, to point B in there? Is it self-supporting? Can it lose all access to the world out-side it's walls and keep up a healthy food supply? Where would the food come from to support the troops? It seems hard to beleive that they can farm, givin where they live and such. Volcano in the middle and all that >.>. The place seemed desolate.

You can the most greatest defensive posistion in the entire world, but without a good food supply there fecked.

But. I am going to assume for a moment that they do indeed have enough food to support themselves from the out-side world. If that's true, then they need to store it someplace. What's to stop that food supply from being effected by the plague? A banshee is incorpral, and can posses people, completly taking over there body and actions. It's not really that difficult to assume that a banshee can posses an Orc, and use that orc to by-pass the Black Gates and contaminate there food.



B) Sauron's army can reproduce at a rate far greater than the Lk

Is this a weakness? For every dead, The Lich King get's even more. You said yourself that the Lick King has a larger army.



C) Sauron's armies are better orginizied

How so? I have seen nothing to support this. Like... at all.



2. The LK has some elite unities, but quiality no (with some exceptions

...Wut?


A) little to know orginiziation

There are well organized. What are you talking about? Can you offer proof there not?


B) No uniformity

*What* in gods name are you talking about? They work in a group, perfectly. They have no choice. To the best of my knowledge, so long as the Lich King has full use of his power, they are utterly loyal.


C) crappy or simple picked up equipment

It's as good as the enemies.


D) corruptable

Not in the slightest. The only reason they betrayed him that one time was because his power was leaking and such. He has complet and total domination of all the undead. They are beyond loyal. In fact, I would go so far as to say that Saurons troops are more capable of being turned to the Lich Kings side. Loyalty for Sauron isn't absolute, but for the Lich King? It is.

When the time was right, Kil'jaeden explained the mission for which he had created the Lich King. Ner'zhul was to spread a plague of death and terror across Azeroth that would snuff out human civilization forever. All those who died from the dreaded plague would arise as the undead, and their spirits would be bound to Ner'zhul's iron will forever.

.

E) weaker fodder (orcs beat zombies, Uruk-hai beat ghouls ect)

You yourself said Lich King had more numbers. Also, any orc killed goes to the Lich Kings side. Let's not forget about the other troops the Scourge has. Saying [blank] unit is better then [blank] unit, and [blank] unit is better is better then [blank] unit is silly. You forget that the Lich Kings dudes will have support caster, Destroyers, Banshees, Gargoyals, and all other manner or wonderful things.



The Lk does have more elite units i'll give him that

By a long shot.


3. LK has more casters
While Sauron does have less casters, his are more powerul and he has anti magic as his disposal, as well as the abilty to corrupt said casters

Hrm. How is his more powerful? And besides, you can't count out large numbers. And no, the Lich Kings dudes are not corruptible. There completly loyal, it's quite honestly impossible for them to turn. *However* Saurons dudes are quite capable of that. A banshe can do it.




4. The LK can use aerial forces to destroy mordor
Every single one of this type of attack has been countered, lets break it down

I agree with you on the point that flying over the gates only is kinda silly. It is just really unlikely.


A) all of the LK's Aerial units are able to be brought down by a few score archers, Sauron has thousands on top of massive towers

Hardly. You are going by game Mechanics in Warcraft 3 dude. A better example is a Frost Wyrm from WoW. It takes alot more then a few mundane arrows to take these down. You really underestimate the power of the Frost Wyrms.


B) sauron has millions upon millions of crows, bats, Cerbian, giant flies, giant bats, evil birds and other nasty flying creatures

Dun mean anything. Frost Wyrms can breaths powerful blasts of ice, and cover themselves in powerful ice magic sheilds. Destroyers and such can heal and damage magic. Oh, and there simple resence heals allied undead.



C) Sauron has vampires, Balrogs and dragons, who would simple destory Frost wyrms and gargoyles

How many? And they won't only have the Frost Wtrms to deal with. Don't forget the other air troops as well.


D) Sauron has control weather

So? They live in a perpetual storm. It hails and has blizzard like winds. I would love to see a storm really do anything to them. Shoot, this would really only hurt Sauron. Hurricane winds would ruin the effectiveness of the archers. The flying units that he has will be effected, while the Lich Kings won't be (Again, they UNLIVE in this stuff). And I highly doubt Sauron can make a freaking tornado.


E) The Nazgul can fly and even if killed they just come back

Nazgul? Yes. But what about the Fel Beasts they ride? I mean, shoot. If the Lich King can raise Blue Dragons, why not bring a *Giggles* Felled Fel Beast to there side?


F) Mount Doom

Ummm... so?



G) while they won't be aiming for them, stray catapult shot or thrown rock might do

Might get a few, I agree.



H) most of the flying forces need to get into meele range of orcs to inflict damage, thus they can be attacked

Um, no? Only ones I can think of are the Gargoyals. Destroyers, and Frost Wyrms though? There ranged.



A) far better orginization

*How*? Their troops kill each other!


B) better equipted armies with an infrastructor

Better equiped? The shock troops, yes. But that's about it. And besides, once an orc is killed, he fights for the Scourge. And has the equipment they have >.>.


C) trained forces

Most of the Lich Kings dude don't NEED training. At all. The Lich Kings shock troops are effective right from the get-go.

Infact seeing as how the Orcs need to be trained in order to be effective seems to be a weakness, not a strength.

At least I assume they need training to be effective. You brining up the point that training makes them effective suggests that.


D) renewable troops

That requite training (Apparently) and upon death join the Lich King.


E) better tatics

Not really. At least, I doubt that Saurons dudes have as many options as the Lich King.


F) internal strife on the other side

No. Not at all. The Scourge is perfectly loyal in just about every single way. The only reason they broke apart the first time was because of the Lich Kings power leaking.


G) the ring

Frostmourn.



H) troll ninjas)

HOLY SHI-! ARE THERE MORE THEN 9000 OF THEM!?


I) Hard to kill units

You seem to assume the Lich King does not have those.


J) better defensive postions

Hrm. Hard to say, really. We have no worked out where the fighting is done, or in what world or anything. But! While Mordor is impressive, don't doubt the power of the ice island :P. Bitter cold can kill off-troops with ease. And acording to lore, most people die there from the weather.

Do *not* be silly and bring up the Footmen or other troops that went there in Warcraft 3 -.-. That was a game limitation, and they still complained. Going by lore (and not the game, which would be silly) is proof that Northrend is a very hostile climite to anything living.


K) control of his lands

Lich king has had HOW long to do this compared to Sauron?

How long did it take Sauron to take utter controll of his lands, anyways?


L) corruption powers)

Pointless, as stated above. And besides, Sauron has more to worry about then the Lich King.


M) Slave population

This is a *good* thing? More bodies for raising! Oh yay.


N) renewable fortresses

Which ones, and how will they be renewed after being lost?


O) extremly hard to destroy fortresses

Agreed. But does this really amount to anything? Without food, provisions, resources... it's basically a death trap.



P) bottle necks (Northrend is kinda of a "just walk right in" sort of place

So is Russia, and look at how easy it was to invaid there~


Q) naval units

Im honestly not sure what the Undead have for Naval stuff. So I will give that one to Sauron.


R) elite units that aren't heros

Lich king has those as well.


S) the nazgul

Deathknights. And quite a few other things as well.


T) shape shifting

Were to assume Sauron is fighting then? And even so, how would changing shape help any?


U) forging of weapons and armor

That when the person who carrys them dies, goes to the Scourges side.


V) inhuman fighting skills

For who? The basic units, or Sauron?

Basic Units: Undead feel no pain, and pay heed to no wounds. They feel no fear. Orcs? They do.



W) Super magic

That point is really moot. So does the Lich King.


X) super fear/despair powers on the LK's living servant

Like who?


Y) The numanorian fleet

Don't know what that is. Can you please describe what they have?


Z) the big three

The who?


Prove to me how deadly the temperature is in northrend. by all means, i'll admit i'm wrong

Okay.

Often called "the roof of the world", Northrend is a frozen wasteland that lies far to the north. As with the other continents, it was once part of the original Kalimdor landmass that was broken apart during the War of the Ancients. The land that became Northrend drifted far from Azeroth's temperate zone, which killed off a large portion of the remaining wildlife.

Cold am cold.

Seriously dude. It's common sence. It's called the "roof of the world" and the land is always iced over and there are constant blizards.

It's *cold*. Very freaking *cold*.

[Mr. Scaly]

The short kobold throws up his hands in disgust.

[Matar]

A loli gives you a hug to make you happy.

2. The LK's undead magic doesn't work on creatures who's souls have been dominated by other evil beings, such as the eastern centaurs. Same principle with the orcs

There a thrall to some evil. How do you know they can't be raised from the simple virtue of being a thrall? We honestly don't know what took place to make them immune to being raised. So saying that "[blank] race worships a evil, and are immune to being raised means [blank] race must be immune as well!" just does not work.

[EvilElitest]

Im new here.

I am also bored.

So imma try my hand at this...


Did you read this thread, because most of these points were already covered



Seems so. The dudes army is endless, really. The more the people he kills, the larger his army becomes. The Lich King is also great at controlling people, turning the most holy as Paladins (Immune to undeath by virture of being a Paladin) into servents. Well, the most holy of them was able to controll his mind and stuff, but his body was forfit.

sign

The LK seems to have the advantage of numbers in the start yes from first glance. However it isn't quite as plain

The LK is described of having a force in the hundreds of thousands. This means he has a fource between 300,000 and 800,000 (if it was 200 or 900 they would have just rounded or said it specifically) but less than a million. If we count all of sauron's forces, i imagine (though i haven't taken an accurate count yet, he might have more) he could have around 700,000 forces. So it isn't a super advantage, though the LK can raise more undead, but only of saurons human forces


Let me ask a few things. How easy is it for troops to get from point A, to point B in there? Is it self-supporting? Can it lose all access to the world out-side it's walls and keep up a healthy food supply? Where would the food come from to support the troops? It seems hard to beleive that they can farm, givin where they live and such. Volcano in the middle and all that >.>. The place seemed desolate.

Sign, this has been covered

Sauron does in fact have a massive amount of fertile farm lands (volcanos help) and a working labor force. He has roads that let him move his armies across morder in a few days (or even hours). He can in fact maintian a siege, even if the Dark Tower is attacked, he was able to withstand a seven year siege


You can the most greatest defensive posistion in the entire world, but without a good food supply there fecked.
yep he does have that, the lands of Nun


But. I am going to assume for a moment that they do indeed have enough food to support themselves from the out-side world. If that's true, then they need to store it someplace. What's to stop that food supply from being effected by the plague? A banshee is incorpral, and can posses people, completly taking over there body and actions. It's not really that difficult to assume that a banshee can posses an Orc, and use that orc to by-pass the Black Gates and contaminate there food.

1. Silent watchers, wights, wraiths, Nazgul, phantoms, specters, and spells can keep banshiees in check
2. For the plauge too effect the food supplies they need to phyically infect them. As sauron has his food supplies under total control, no problem
3. You need to get back the black gate and all of saurons forces to get their



Is this a weakness? For every dead, The Lich King get's even more. You said yourself that the Lick King has a larger army.


Sauron can create ten thousand uruk-hai in around six months
The LK can only raise humans (not other dark creatures) and even then humans who are burned, rotted, mangled, or beheaded are unraisable. Sauron can maintain a siege and have huge forces at his disposal. Remember Sauron can raise forces from teh dead as well (see dead marches)



How so? I have seen nothing to support this. Like... at all.


Read return of hte king. The orcs mention that each one has a name, rank and number.
They are also mentioned being organized in legions, and having relative uniform equipment. Sauron's plans are also very elaberote and well orginized

The LK on the other hand has awful organization problems, he spreads himself to thin, he tends to rely on swarm tactics, his forces do not use uniform weapons, many of them don't even use weapons at all and he doesn't secure his own homeland (despite having seven years to do so)


...Wut?



There are well organized. What are you talking about? Can you offer proof there not?

yes i can
1. Look at the LKs forces, they don't have uniform equipment, many of them don't have any equipment at all. Those that do simple have what ever they happen to pick up and those are often rusted, broken or otherwise out of shape.
2. He has no infrastructure at all. With the exception of runeblades, all of his weapons and armor are salvaged from dead troops and tend to be in bad condition (defiantly armor as it had just been torn apart) and many of his troops don't even use weapon (ghouls, zombies, skeletons ect)
3. During the WOW period, the seven years between Frozen throne and current WOW time, he spread his forces all over zeroth, and kinda left them their to get picked off. It was more like a massive number of raiders
4. During the scourge invasion, they didn't really invade, they just kinda wandered forward in small groups. No orgnizatin
5. He hasn't even taken over northrend and he has had 24 years
6. He spreads his forces far to thin



*What* in gods name are you talking about? They work in a group, perfectly. They have no choice. To the best of my knowledge, so long as the Lich King has full use of his power, they are utterly loyal.

just because they have one mind doesn't mean they are tactically intellegent. . They rush forward in a swarm wielding what ever they have in hand. Not tactics, just swarm.


It's as good as the enemies.
Um, no, no its not. Orcs are described as good smiths and Morder has an organized infrastructure. the scourge forces only pick up what ever they have at hand, and that is often cruddy condition


Not in the slightest. The only reason they betrayed him that one time was because his power was leaking and such. He has complet and total domination of all the undead. They are beyond loyal. In fact, I would go so far as to say that Saurons troops are more capable of being turned to the Lich Kings side. Loyalty for Sauron isn't absolute, but for the Lich King? It is.

1. No he doesn't, if he had complete and total control he wouldn't have lost maybe 1/8 of his forces. complete and total control requires him to never lose control of his forces. Hell apparently death knights are breaking away from him even now, you call that total control?
2. The LK losses control when he is damage, weakened, or under pressure. Sauron can do all that
3. Sauron is the Great Necromancer, i can see him wresting control from the LK
4. Wraiths at least are automatically fallen the Nazgul can control lesser wraiths
5. The LK has not real corruption ability, and Sauron's is great
6. Sauron's greatest power is his ability to control others and his general corruption ability. nothing the LK can pervent
7. The LK is rather weak willed, in both of his lives he became evil because he failed a battle of wills (Arthas, Ner'zhul).
8. Sauron's forces are also freakishly loyal, described as willing to kill themselves for him
9. The LK has living servants, ripe for corruption by Sauron.


When the time was right, Kil'jaeden explained the mission for which he had created the Lich King. Ner'zhul was to spread a plague of death and terror across Azeroth that would snuff out human civilization forever. All those who died from the dreaded plague would arise as the undead, and their spirits would be bound to Ner'zhul's iron will forever.

That requires you to dye of the plague and be raised, the plague is difficult to use and only human sevents can be raised from the dead



You yourself said Lich King had more numbers. Also, any orc killed goes to the Lich Kings side. Let's not forget about the other troops the Scourge has. Saying [blank] unit is better then [blank] unit, and [blank] unit is better is better then [blank] unit is silly. You forget that the Lich Kings dudes will have support caster, Destroyers, Banshees, Gargoyals, and all other manner or wonderful things.
Yawn
1. LK has numbers, Sauron has better equipment,defensive positions, a better tactical record, better organization, and more relatively powerful units
2. Orcs don't join the LK, they just die and rot. Sauron can raise his own undead however
3. Um, we have understanding of the people's units. Saurons human units can destroy most ghouls and what not, but would take a lot to bring down a crypt fiend (of whome the LK has only a few)
4. All of those units have been countered



Hrm. How is his more powerful? And besides, you can't count out large numbers. And no, the Lich Kings dudes are not corruptible. There completly loyal, it's quite honestly impossible for them to turn. *However* Saurons dudes are quite capable of that. A banshe can do it.

Yawn
1. Can you read this thread please? It has been covered many times why Sauron's magic is greater
2. Living necromancers and adepts are ripe for the picking for sauron's domination and corruption
3. Banshees can corrupt people? Doesn't say so in their wiki and i don't recall being corrupted
4. Sauron's evil spirits counter banshees
5. They aren't uncorruptabel because a whole force broke off
6. the LK lost the vast majority of his banshees anyways




I agree with you on the point that flying over the gates only is kinda silly. It is just really unlikely.

thank you


Hardly. You are going by game Mechanics in Warcraft 3 dude. A better example is a Frost Wyrm from WoW. It takes alot more then a few mundane arrows to take these down. You really underestimate the power of the Frost Wyrms.
1. If i can bring down a dragon in Warcraft three using archers, then it must be so. I can understand it being hard to use that, but really, they can go down by archers
2. Ok Frost wyrms in WOW don't fly very high, so yeah, no going over the wall their,
3. Almost all of Sauron's forces have long rang, hundreds of thousands of arrows will bring it down



Dun mean anything. Frost Wyrms can breaths powerful blasts of ice, and cover themselves in powerful ice magic sheilds. Destroyers and such can heal and damage magic. Oh, and there simple resence heals allied undead.

Ever heard of swarms?
A giant bat, or giant crow (cerbain) and giant flies are nasty on their own. Sauron has millions of them along with millions of normal crows, flies, and bats. If each normal bat does a few hit points per hit, and as we know frost wyms can only hit a few per round, they will go down. Maybe ten thousand will die, but its a fair trade. Destroys have no magic to destory when being swarmed by these guys, and every one lost can never be replaced. They can't heal faster than they are being hit. Also do you have any idea how fast flies breed?




How many? And they won't only have the Frost Wtrms to deal with. Don't forget the other air troops as well.
1. Maybe a dozen balrogs tops, with one really big one (duren's bane)
2. their are many many dragons in the third age, but not more i guess than ten thousand (flying, worms and drakes are more populous.) So you have maybe a few thousand winged fire dragons, and a few thousand winged cold drakes
3. Vampires i would think would be in the low thousands, with their giant leader
4. Sauron himself can shap shift into something giant
5. Well Sauron's wind can take care of the zeppelins
6. fel beasts


So? They live in a perpetual storm. It hails and has blizzard like winds. I would love to see a storm really do anything to them. Shoot, this would really only hurt Sauron. Hurricane winds would ruin the effectiveness of the archers. The flying units that he has will be effected, while the Lich Kings won't be (Again, they UNLIVE in this stuff). And I highly doubt Sauron can make a freaking tornado.

1. Sauron in his own land as total control of the weather (wouldn't work in northrend i admit)
2. hurricane winds would bring down rotting wings, as well as zeppelins, and hinder their ability to move
3. Lighting does in fact hurt dragons, we know this for a fact
4. Have we ever seen them go through a hurricane? I haven't


Nazgul? Yes. But what about the Fel Beasts they ride? I mean, shoot. If the Lich King can raise Blue Dragons, why not bring a *Giggles* Felled Fel Beast to there side?
Fel beasts are like orcs, service to teh dark powers



Ummm... so?
Ever see a volcano erupt? Once sauron's forces clear out of the way, giant flaming boulders come down from the sky, molten lava comes down, explosions ect.




Might get a few, I agree.
Remember, Sauron's siege weapons are absurdly long ranged, and they will be on top of towers no less



Um, no? Only ones I can think of are the Gargoyals. Destroyers, and Frost Wyrms though? There ranged.

1. Can destorys even do that much
2. Don't forget, i think Gargoyals are humonids, and thus corruptible and fear able.
3. Frost wryms can keep up that frost breath forever, in the time it takes for them to wait, they will get shot down



*How*? Their troops kill each other!
but only in minor scuffles, on the field they are quite organized



Most of the Lich Kings dude don't NEED training. At all. The Lich Kings shock troops are effective right from the get-go.


effective in a swarm way, not in a tatical way. They can't do formations, they can't properly use range, they can't easily break formations, they can swarm and attack and that is about it generally



Infact seeing as how the Orcs need to be trained in order to be effective seems to be a weakness, not a strength.

spear walls, shield walls, range tatics, ect. The romans proved that well trained troops are great against organized forces


At least I assume they need training to be effective. You brining up the point that training makes them effective suggests that.

Training makes them more effective, they can use swarm tatics if they have to (untrained ones i suppose) but training does make a difference


That requite training (Apparently) and upon death join the Lich King.

orcs dont' join the LK


Not really. At least, I doubt that Saurons dudes have as many options as the Lich King.

Every six months Sauron gets ten thousand Uruk-hai and more normal orcs. Sauron's lands are vaster so in the time it takes for the Scourge to even get to morder, he can raise huge arimies. His human lands (harad, Rhun ect) will take a while to get to so even if they lose their armies they can renew them with time.


No. Not at all. The Scourge is perfectly loyal in just about every single way. The only reason they broke apart the first time was because of the Lich Kings power leaking.
And so if the LK gets hurt or losses power, or otherwise unable to maintain control his forces start to break off.



Frostmourn.
your point? Its a shiny sword, nothing special




HOLY SHI-! ARE THERE MORE THEN 9000 OF THEM!?
yes



You seem to assume the Lich King does not have those.
The LK's elite units are replaceable. Sauron has more, if weaker hard to kill units who can be replaced. Every Crypt lord lost is gone for good, while every giant spider lost can be replaced (remember the spiders are dark creatures as well)



Hrm. Hard to say, really. We have no worked out where the fighting is done, or in what world or anything. But! While Mordor is impressive, don't doubt the power of the ice island :P. Bitter cold can kill off-troops with ease. And acording to lore, most people die there from the weather.

um, the cold thing has been countered in the last page


Do *not* be silly and bring up the Footmen or other troops that went there in Warcraft 3 -.-. That was a game limitation, and they still complained. Going by lore (and not the game, which would be silly) is proof that Northrend is a very hostile climite to anything living.

1. In the lore, an alliance army was able to get up their and stay alive for a good deal of time, and these were humans. What are you trying to pull
2. I complain about the cold here, i'm not going to die from it
3. Orcs are more resistant to cold and eat less
4. Prove to me that it is deathly cold, an army got up their, and is going up their even now


Lich king has had HOW long to do this compared to Sauron?

How long did it take Sauron to take utter controll of his lands, anyways?

ummm, what are you talking about? Control as in he can bend it to his will
It took sauron like a year tops to take control of his lands


Pointless, as stated above. And besides, Sauron has more to worry about then the Lich King.

no he doesn't the LK has not corruption powers, and Saruon does


This is a *good* thing? More bodies for raising! Oh yay.

You need to get to them first. To get to them you need break past Minis morgul, Cirith Ungul, the Black Gate, and somehow keep baradur under siege, not get destroyed by Mount doom, destroy an entire orc army, go over a massive field full of foes, avoid reinforcments from the north, south, and west from destroying you, get past evil traps and evil weather as well as flying units destroy the orc armies at Nune and then destroy the slaves (who will fight back, they don't want to turned into undead) to get a the slaves. Until then, the slaves are providing food and supplies to Saurons forces while the LKs forces are being destoryed



Which ones, and how will they be renewed after being lost?
Black Gate, Gul Dulgor and the Dark Tower can be rebuilt by Sauron if they are destroy as long as the ring isn't destroyed. They can also fall apart if they are taken



Agreed. But does this really amount to anything? Without food, provisions, resources... it's basically a death trap.

Nope, Sauron was able to maintain a seven year siege no problem.



So is Russia, and look at how easy it was to invaid there~


Touche, but if Sauron invade Northrend, it would only be after the LK's army was destroyed, or until he was able to built such a huge orc army that the losses wouldn't bother him
Im honestly not sure what the Undead have for Naval stuff. So I will give that one to Sauron.




Lich king has those as well.
Really? I don't recall



Deathknights. And quite a few other things as well.
Nazgul beat deathknights, hell the Witch King beats the Lich King (see the thread on that, don't you dare bring it back form teh dead). Also every death knight lost is gone for good while nazgul can just come back

Remember, death knights can break away from the LK's control



Were to assume Sauron is fighting then? And even so, how would changing shape help any?
Sauorn can turn into pratically anything, and a giant evil dragon or Balrog would be nasty. Now even if you kill sauron the first time, he instantly comes back to mordor np (though he can't shape shift any more) with just his super warrior form. The second time you kill him he takes a while to reform, but can come back.



That when the person who carrys them dies, goes to the Scourges side.
only for Sauron's human units, also remember armor that was broken through once isn't so useful



For who? The basic units, or Sauron?
Sauron



That point is really moot. So does the Lich King.
Not compared to Sauron, his magic is far greater. I mean he countered direct god magic shot at him from the Valar



Like who?
1. Gargolies
2. The cult of the damned
3. living death knights
4. Living necormancers
5. the half giant things



Don't know what that is. Can you please describe what they have?

The numanorians were the greatest race of men ever to exist. it was they who's decedents brought about the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor (that are nothing compared to the the numanorian kindoms). They are taller, stronger, longer lived, and more powerful than normal humans, blessed in body and mind. There weapons and armor, as well as their fortresses and ships were greater to all but the most powerful elves and dwarves, their building powers were simple badass. Their kingdom was the greatest to ever exist. However, Sauron surrendered to them, was taken back to their capital , and in three years talk his way into taking total control of the city. They worshiped Morgoth and sacrificed humans, drove elves away and enslaved the lesser men. They then went to attack the Valar with the greatest fleet ever seen in middle earth. Now the numanorian ships were huge and amazing, nine of them were able to carry the population of two whole kingdoms. This fleet was larger even the the elven fleets of the first age, those were thousands in numbers, and their ships were even bigger.

Aragorn is the closest thing to the numanorians ever seen in the third age, and even he pales in their presence. Now the numanorians are like the most badass army Sauron has, their only disadvantage is taht they can be raised from the dead




The who?
Me, Rowan, and Warty Goblin. Its a joke



Okay.

Often called "the roof of the world", Northrend is a frozen wasteland that lies far to the north. As with the other continents, it was once part of the original Kalimdor landmass that was broken apart during the War of the Ancients. The land that became Northrend drifted far from Azeroth's temperate zone, which killed off a large portion of the remaining wildlife.

Cold am cold.

Seriously dude. It's common sence. It's called the "roof of the world" and the land is always iced over and there are constant blizards.

1. It only says it killed the wild life
2. Except three armies seem to have been able to go up their and were fine, armor non withstanding
from
EE

[EvilElitest]

Dear gods, start a new thread, let this one die


2. The LK's undead magic doesn't work on creatures who's souls have been dominated by other evil beings, such as the eastern centaurs. Same principle with the orcs

There a thrall to some evil. How do you know they can't be raised from the simple virtue of being a thrall? We honestly don't know what took place to make them immune to being raised. So saying that "[blank] race worships a evil, and are immune to being raised means [blank] race must be immune as well!" just does not work.

the dark creatures are also described as thralls to evil. Apparently, being corrupted by evil makes you immune to being raised, then that certainly works for the dark creatures of middle earth

Out of curiosity, can demons be raised as undead?
from
EE

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Out of curiosity, can demons be raised as undead?

I don't think so, but this is because Demons, when they die, return to the Twisting Nether (The home and birth place of demons) even Sargeras himself isn't really DEAD per-se, when he was "killed" along with Medivh he returned to the Nether, I don't think he can get out yet, but I believe it has something to do with the way he died and him not having a body any more (he let his avatar/body die)

[EvilElitest]

I don't think so, but this is because Demons, when they die, return to the Twisting Nether (The home and birth place of demons) even Sargeras himself isn't really DEAD per-se, when he was "killed" along with Medivh he returned to the Nether, I don't think he can get out yet, but I believe it has something to do with the way he died and him not having a body any more (he let his avatar/body die)

Wait, according to that that means every demon that has been ever killed is not really dead, and we know that isn't true
Sargeras i can understand, but he is a titan
from
EE

[Selrahc]

The LK seems to have the advantage of numbers in the start yes from first glance. However it isn't quite as plain

The LK is described of having a force in the hundreds of thousands. This means he has a fource between 300,000 and 800,000 (if it was 200 or 900 they would have just rounded or said it specifically) but less than a million. If we count all of sauron's forces, i imagine (though i haven't taken an accurate count yet, he might have more) he could have around 700,000 forces. So it isn't a super advantage, though the LK can raise more undead, but only of saurons human forces

No. Hundreds of thousands can be used even if there are more than a million troops.

This entire line of reasoning is massively speculative. You're taking how you would use the phrase hundreds of thousands and applying it as gospel truth giving defined upper and lower limits. It does no such thing, I have used the phrase to describe armies of well over a million troops.

Hundreds of thousands is a wonderfully evocative phrase, lots of words meaning big. And it portrays a real horde feeling. Over a million troops however sounds a much more manageable number. It strictly implies a limit. Even worse are the phrases just under a million, or a million. Its still linguistically fine to use the phrase right up until 2 millions, when it gets replaced by millions. Personally I'd still use it until I got up to twenty million troops, because then I could say tens of millions.

Its not a phrase designed to give an exact idea of numbers. It is a phrase designed to imply large numbers. I feel "hundreds of thousands" implies more size than "over a million". And I like the phrase more than "millions".

So someone could use the phrase, and the Lich King could have millions of troops.

So, looking elsewhere for number estimates, is it reasonable that the Lich King would have millions of troops? Yes. It is. The direct correlation to Lordaeron wold be medieval europe. In Medieval Europe, states had populations of over a million. Arthas crippled a giant state, with a probable population well over a million. He broke the Elves, and the Orcs that remained in Lordaeron apart. He has access to the graveyards of the ages. And he had large number of troops from Northrend. We know that in this age of total war that currently encompasses Warcraft, his numbers are only increasing.

A possible army of several million is indeed plausible.

And again, your statement that orcs are unraisable is entirely made up. Its far more likely that they could be raised.


1. Silent watchers, wights, wraiths, Nazgul, phantoms, specters, and spells can keep banshiees in check

Or maybe not. Because those beasts are really rare. Banshees aren't, and yet can give them a good fight.

I'm not convinced that the incorporeal forces of Sauron are anywhere near as good as those of the Lich King.



2. For the plauge too effect the food supplies they need to phyically infect them. As sauron has his food supplies under total control, no problem


Or the forces of the Lich King fly over the mountains, and wreak havoc on the relatively undefended farmlands, infecting them so they can't be farmed again.



Sauron can create ten thousand uruk-hai in around six months

No... Saruman can. For all we know, he used some special trick that only he knew.



The LK on the other hand has awful organization problems, he spreads himself to thin, he tends to rely on swarm tactics, his forces do not use uniform weapons, many of them don't even use weapons at all and he doesn't secure his own homeland (despite having seven years to do so)

He doesn't spread himself too thin. He doesn't need uniform weapons. Only fodder units use swarm tactics. And he has no need to completely comquer his homeland, because it is not a very important place.



1. Look at the LKs forces, they don't have uniform equipment, many of them don't have any equipment at all.

Because they don't need it! They're supernaturally strong zombies. With giant mishappen talons for hands. They're fully capable of ripping apart foes dressed in full plate with their bare hands.

Its only a symbol of poor organization to be unequipped, if equipment is desired. If the vast majority of your forces are undead monstrosities who are better without weapons, then it is not a sign of disorganization.



2. He has no infrastructure at all. With the exception of runeblades, all of his weapons and armor are salvaged from dead troops and tend to be in bad condition (defiantly armor as it had just been torn apart) and many of his troops don't even use weapon (ghouls, zombies, skeletons ect)

You are really hung up on equipment here....

Infrastructure is not needed for undead. They don't need food supplies, they don't need weapons(Apart from siege, which they build), and their communications are pretty good.


The LK can only raise humans (not other dark creatures)

He sure can! Look at those Nagas, Satyrs, Orcs and Blood Elves he raises. All corrupted beasts, and yet all can be raised. Centaurs are a special case for some reason. Assuming that same reason applies to the orcs without even knowing what that reason really is is ludicrous.



1. No he doesn't, if he had complete and total control he wouldn't have lost maybe 1/8 of his forces. complete and total control requires him to never lose control of his forces.

You notice how in the sentence you were quoting the person mentioned the special circumstances that led to that event? You need to stop fixating on that.

After all, you're loudly proclaiming about how complete Saurons domination is, and yet the minute he was weakened, his forces went gallavanting away in a complete rout.

If someone has a magical domination on another being, and that magical domination is broken by an external event, that does not mean that the person could break from the domination.

If Sauron could break the Lich Kings domination, loyalty might slowly become an issue, as minds reassert themselves.



3. During the WOW period, the seven years between Frozen throne and current WOW time, he spread his forces all over zeroth, and kinda left them their to get picked off. It was more like a massive number of raiders

And it has worked perfectly. His numbers are continually raising, while his foes are weaker. Some of his most powerful opponents are now dead(E.G Illidan), and he has never been in a stronger position. All without any risk.



2. The LK losses control when he is damage, weakened, or under pressure. Sauron can do all that

No he loses control when the seat of the world is ripped assunder, and powerful magics are invoked specifically to weaken him. And now he has a stronger form, so even that might not work.



3. Sauron is the Great Necromancer, i can see him wresting control from the LK

And I really can't. Because Sauron does nothing that even approaches the same scope in his necromancy.


5. The LK has not real corruption ability, and Sauron's is great

Except he clearly does. Because multiple paladins have been brought into his domination.
And Saurons corruption ability simply does not matter. He is against an incorruptible foe.



Ugh. This is sickeningly dull. I'm not even going to waste my time on this.
Your points are subjective, and do not offer conclusive proof. Attempting to say that that is a succesful and irefutable rebbutal is wrong.

However, I commend you at least on your stamina. You apparently have the stomach to sit there making your replies for hours on end. I do not.

Be assured that you have not convinced me in the least, but I'm not posting again. This is just too blah. I guess by your victory conditions, you're claiming it as a win.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Wait, according to that that means every demon that has been ever killed is not really dead, and we know that isn't true
Sargeras i can understand, but he is a titan
from
EE

It is true mostly, unless killed in a way that kills them for good specifically, they go back to the Twisting Nether, so your average Fel Guard who gets killed by say a footmen or a grunt will come back, but like Mal'Ganis who was killed by Frostmourne is dead dead, well he might not actually be dead, but if he had actually DIED, would be dead dead. Thats why there are always so many demons :smallannoyed:

[warty goblin]

There's a lot I want to respond to, but am a little short of time, so I'll limit myself to this:

If Saruman did it, Sauron can do it better. Everything Saruman did was described as fed to him by Sauron, Orthanc's refitting into a mockery of Barad-Dur, the delving of the dungeons etc. Sauron is, in every conceivable way greater than Saruman.

Thus if Saruman can, from scratch, create 10,000 uruks in six months, Sauron could easily do it, because he almost certainly told Saruman how to do it to begin with.

[EvilElitest]

No. Hundreds of thousands can be used even if there are more than a million troops.

Um, no, if that were the case then under numbers "millions" would be written instead of hundreds of thousands



This entire line of reasoning is massively speculative. You're taking how you would use the phrase hundreds of thousands and applying it as gospel truth giving defined upper and lower limits. It does no such thing, I have used the phrase to describe armies of well over a million troops.

Why would use use a word like that? It is like looking at an army of 500,000 and saying "I have hundreds of men". That seems very silly. Now if the LK has more than a million troops provide me with a source please. I'd be willing to believe that, but i need a source. the only source i see concering the LK's numbers says hundreds of thousand. Now we know he has more than 100,000 men because it says hundreds of thousands, not a hundred thousand. And 200,000 or 900,000 troops seem too specific, so logically the numbers are between 300,000 and 800,000. Personally i think he has something between 800,000 and 850,000 but i don't know. I only have what they said, nothing more



Hundreds of thousands is a wonderfully evocative phrase, lots of words meaning big. And it portrays a real horde feeling. Over a million troops however sounds a much more manageable number. It strictly implies a limit. Even worse are the phrases just under a million, or a million. Its still linguistically fine to use the phrase right up until 2 millions, when it gets replaced by millions. Personally I'd still use it until I got up to twenty million troops, because then I could say tens of millions.
Personally i think million rolls off the tounge better
however this is irrelevant, the only source i could find on the LK numbers says hundreds of thousands and i'm taking it as that unless their is any indication of a million.


So someone could use the phrase, and the Lich King could have millions of troops.
or somebody could simple say an accurate number and the LK has hundreds of thousands. Can you give me some proof


So, looking elsewhere for number estimates, is it reasonable that the Lich King would have millions of troops? Yes. It is. The direct correlation to Lordaeron wold be medieval europe. In Medieval Europe, states had populations of over a million. Arthas crippled a giant state, with a probable population well over a million. He broke the Elves, and the Orcs that remained in Lordaeron apart. He has access to the graveyards of the ages. And he had large number of troops from Northrend. We know that in this age of total war that currently encompasses Warcraft, his numbers are only increasing.
we don't know the numbers here, i admit it is quite plausible except that their is no hard evidence. can you tell me the pouplation of Lordaeron pre war and post war? Can you tell me how many were raised as undead? can you tell me how many escaped and left the country. Can you tell me how many were killed by other means?




And again, your statement that orcs are unraisable is entirely made up. Its far more likely that they could be raised.

proof, damnit, proof. Being a thrall to evil seems to give you protection from undead, can you say i'm wrong here?


Or maybe not. Because those beasts are really rare. Banshees aren't, and yet can give them a good fight.

I'm not convinced that the incorporeal forces of Sauron are anywhere near as good as those of the Lich King.
1. Well we know Sauron has a reasonable number
2. Well gandalf feared them, so thats an indication of their power



Or the forces of the Lich King fly over the mountains, and wreak havoc on the relatively undefended farmlands, infecting them so they can't be farmed again.
The farm lands are on the far side of morder, to get there you need to get past almost the entire country




He doesn't spread himself too thin. He doesn't need uniform weapons. Only fodder units use swarm tactics. And he has no need to completely comquer his homeland, because it is not a very important place.
1. Yes he does, he spreads his undead all over the map during the seven year WOW periods and they just get picked off by the Players
2. When you want control of something, it is normally important to own it. Now all of those races hate him, some of them are allies with the alliance, and are all potential threat. He had 24 years to pick them off when he has a huge army and they didn't have any allies. Now that he waited the've become more powerful and gained allies.
3. Um, almost all of his army uses swarm tatics
4. unarmed ghouls vs. orcs with bows, swords, shields and spears and armored.

B
ecause they don't need it! They're supernaturally strong zombies. With giant mishappen talons for hands. They're fully capable of ripping apart foes dressed in full plate with their bare hands.

Humans in Warcraft are better then they are, and remember it is hard to tear something apart with your rotting hands. Also range, an orc with a bow can kill a few dozen without even using his sword



You are really hung up on equipment here....
as the romans proved, it is useful



He sure can! Look at those Nagas, Satyrs, Orcs and Blood Elves he raises. All corrupted beasts, and yet all can be raised. Centaurs are a special case for some reason. Assuming that same reason applies to the orcs without even knowing what that reason really is is ludicrous.
1. Nagas aren't corrupted by a specific evil, they were just mutated
2. Can satyrs be raised?
3. Orcs and blood elves were never totally corrupted



You notice how in the sentence you were quoting the person mentioned the special circumstances that led to that event? You need to stop fixating on that.
Except those special circumstances was the LK losing power and being personally attacked. that can happen again


After all, you're loudly proclaiming about how complete Saurons domination is, and yet the minute he was weakened, his forces went gallavanting away in a complete rout.
Um, you mean after the ring was destroyed? Well yeah, that is like if the LK died

If someone has a magical domination on another being, and that magical domination is broken by an external event, that does not mean that the person could break from the domination.

alright, then Sauron is the external event



And it has worked perfectly. His numbers are continually raising, while his foes are weaker. Some of his most powerful opponents are now dead(E.G Illidan), and he has never been in a stronger position. All without any risk.

1. No he lost a good deal of important minions and positions, schoolamance, Ravenferndowns and plenty of important minions. He lost most of his troops who attacked during the scourge invasion, as well as plenty of his own elite forces.
2. And now he has a massive invasion on his hands, smart
3. His numbers are really increasing much, he spends most of his troops fighting the Scarlet Crusade and the Forsaken


No he loses control when the seat of the world is ripped assunder, and powerful magics are invoked specifically to weaken him. And now he has a stronger form, so even that might not work.
no really, it was the damage the made him lose power. Sauron can do that, though it might be difficult. And what about a will battle



And I really can't. Because Sauron does nothing that even approaches the same scope in his necromancy.
Dead marshes, Minis Morgul, The Nazgul, ect. Now as impressive, but still something to consider, also remember his corruption powers plus raising undead



Except he clearly does. Because multiple paladins have been brought into his domination.
Not through magic, through mundane control


And Saurons corruption ability simply does not matter. He is against an incorruptible foe.
Yes because we know Arthas' will didn't fail at a critical moment. Wait....



Ugh. This is sickeningly dull. I'm not even going to waste my time on this.
Your points are subjective, and do not offer conclusive proof. Attempting to say that that is a succesful and irefutable rebbutal is wrong.
And your proof to back this is?




However, I commend you at least on your stamina. You apparently have the stomach to sit there making your replies for hours on end. I do not.

Hours? more like ten mins. However thank you for the complement, i have been compliment onf my stamia if not my strength, i'm like Borris the Blade


Be assured that you have not convinced me in the least, but I'm not posting again. This is just too blah. I guess by your victory conditions, you're claiming it as a win.

Have fun, thanks for being civil and at least admitting you can't going on. enjoy yourself


it is true mostly, unless killed in a way that kills them for good specifically, they go back to the Twisting Nether, so your average Fel Guard who gets killed by say a footmen or a grunt will come back, but like Mal'Ganis who was killed by Frostmourne is dead dead, well he might not actually be dead, but if he had actually DIED, would be dead dead. Thats why there are always so many demons
wait, but the guy who corrupted the orcs didn't come back. Are you sure about this?

from
EE

[Lord_Asmodeus]

wait, but the guy who corrupted the orcs didn't come back. Are you sure about this?

That was Mannaroth, and yea he's very dead, he was killed by Hellscream's magical axe (hence his perma-death) and since he was replaced it also confirms this, as the Annihilan were fanatically loyal to the bastard and wouldn't have replaced him unless he was truly and forever dead.

Mal'Ganis was the guy who helped the Lich King corrupt Arthas by essentially hurting his pride and being the bad guy and making him go to further and further lengths to kill him, until finally Arthas was forced to take up Frostmourne, despite the curse it had. Mal'Ganis "Died" when the Lich King told the now Death Knight to take his revenge on the Dread Lord but current WoW fluff indicates he secretly survived (which I think is kind of stupid, why is it everyone who's supposed to be alive is dead and everyone who's supposed to be dead is alive, GET IT RIGHT BLIZZARD, DEAD PEOPLE STAY DEAD, LIVING PEOPLE SHOULD STAY LIVING)

[Rutee]

(which I think is kind of stupid, why is it everyone who's supposed to be alive is dead and everyone who's supposed to be dead is alive, GET IT RIGHT BLIZZARD, DEAD PEOPLE STAY DEAD, LIVING PEOPLE SHOULD STAY LIVING)

It's called a Dr. Wiley death.

....

...Back to my write up for Megaman-ing in New Mage.

[Selrahc]

...Back to my write up for Megaman-ing in New Mage.

:smallconfused:

Assuming you mean Mage: The Awakening, what is mega man-ing?

[Rutee]

:smallconfused:

Assuming you mean Mage: The Awakening, what is mega man-ing?

I'm trying to figure out a way to justify Mages being able to absorb Rotes from either killed or incapacitated mages, then mechanically figure something out. This works better when the GM using it is fully cognizant of the fact that Mages can come up with new magic, and that the printed spells are guidelines. Makes it more likely for someone to have a unique Rote worth the write up. The justification isn't that difficult, really, though it kinda assumes a use of either Prime, Mind, or Death Magic on them.

Not that I'll ever use it. The Mage game I'm in is more based on discoveries and the often-times ugly motivations behind them, but.. the figuring is fun XD

[EvilElitest]

That was Mannaroth, and yea he's very dead, he was killed by Hellscream's magical axe (hence his perma-death) and since he was replaced it also confirms this, as the Annihilan were fanatically loyal to the bastard and wouldn't have replaced him unless he was truly and forever dead.

Wait, but what about the head dreadlord, he died and hasn't come back. or plenty of demons for that matter, are you sure about this theory?



Mal'Ganis was the guy who helped the Lich King corrupt Arthas by essentially hurting his pride and being the bad guy and making him go to further and further lengths to kill him, until finally Arthas was forced to take up Frostmourne, despite the curse it had. Mal'Ganis "Died" when the Lich King told the now Death Knight to take his revenge on the Dread Lord but current WoW fluff indicates he secretly survived (which I think is kind of stupid, why is it everyone who's supposed to be alive is dead and everyone who's supposed to be dead is alive, GET IT RIGHT BLIZZARD, DEAD PEOPLE STAY DEAD, LIVING PEOPLE SHOULD STAY LIVING)

Mal'Ganis isn't death ether? WFT? First Illiden (why bring him back if your just going to kill him), then the dude in outlands, what now?
from
EE

[Selrahc]

I'd go with a Death Prime spell myself. Rotes are kind of something that transcends the mind, and links you to the supernal. So prime to handle the rote knowledge, and death to handle the stealing of things from the dying.

EDIT: To reexplain why not mind, a rote isn't something you know in your head. Its something you know in your soul. Thats why grimoires and such can't be understood by non awakened.

Prime 4*, Death 3* perhaps? With whatever dot in arcana needed to actually use the rote.

*The level of the various siphon spells, and the level of the devouring the slain spell.

Thats just how I'd do it. Its fairly cool, but if I was ST I probably wouldn't allow it. Free XP stuff is a bit unfair. What I would do is say that the knowledge transfers to the caster of the spell, but to truly understand the mudras involved they would need to attune them to their soul.(and thus spend the XP. Maybe with a cost reduction)

[EvilElitest]

I have no idea what your talking about
from
EE

[Selrahc]

I have no idea what your talking about
from
EE

Mage the Awakening is a roleplaying game. You play a mage capable of using magic.

Magic comes in ten flavours, each being a fundamental force making up the universe. You're restricted to a certain power level in each arcana you can cast, but you can make up your own spells. It's fun.

We were talking about making a spell. :smallsmile:

[EvilElitest]

Mage the Awakening is a roleplaying game. You play a mage capable of using magic.

Magic comes in ten flavours, each being a fundamental force making up the universe. You're restricted to a certain power level in each arcana you can cast, but you can make up your own spells. It's fun.


Cool, is their a source that i could read about it in more detail


We were talking about making a spell. :smallsmile:

The thread is dead, and is being used as fertilizer. At this point, it being derailed is most likely the best thing that could happen, enjoy your selves. What kind of spell are you making?
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

And to think it all started with an innocent comment about cold weather...

[EvilElitest]

And to think it all started with an innocent comment about cold weather...

this is like the balkan before WWI, one little match can set of a powerkeg


from
EE

[Lizard]

Hello...Here is another Lich King defender, willing to jump into the meatgrinder... Be nice :smallbiggrin:


Um, no, if that were the case then under numbers "millions" would be written instead of hundreds of thousands


1. Yes he does, he spreads his undead all over the map during the seven year WOW periods and they just get picked off by the Players
2. When you want control of something, it is normally important to own it. Now all of those races hate him, some of them are allies with the alliance, and are all potential threat. He had 24 years to pick them off when he has a huge army and they didn't have any allies. Now that he waited the've become more powerful and gained allies.


1) Last time I logged into WoW, most of the land under his influence was overcrowded with his undead minions. Yes players manage to kill thousands of his undead, but he recreates them even faster. And the hearth of the Scourge coruption in Eastern Kingdoms (Eastern/Western Plaugelands) is crawling with his minions with only few players actively interfering there. And Argent Dawn just standing there in few heavily guarded outposts...

2) Yes, pretty much every other faction in Warcraft wants to destroy Scourge. Alliance, Horde, Burning Legions, Illidian and his pals.... And yet he remains unchallenged, and while all of those factions gets more and more ruined with endless war he only prospers...
Gained allies? What allies? The current situation is far more dire for his enemies than it was 7 years ago. The alliance between Horde, Humans and Night Elves that stopped Burning Legion, and was only Azerothian force that has real chance to defeat LK is completly and hopelessly broken, The Burning Legiona and Illidian that retreated into Outlands to recover enough power to crush that annoying LK that betrayed them suddenly realize that there is an endless stream of both Alliance and Horde troops and adventurers pouring out of Dark Portal, and instead of recovering they desperately fight on their homeground, with many of their plans and forces that could destroy LK demolished by the same adventures that should "pick off Lich Kings minions".
Of course not counting countless neutral warlords, leaders and chieftants that are preparing for bloody revenege against both Horde and Alliance becouse their homes were raided, their armies destroyed, and their treasures stolen, countless time by Horde/Alliance "heroes".


3. Um, almost all of his army uses swarm tatics

Yes I agree, his weaker units that are designed for swarming uses swarming tactics.


4. unarmed ghouls vs. orcs with bows, swords, shields and spears and armored.
Humans in Warcraft are better then they are, and remember it is hard to tear something apart with your rotting hands. Also range, an orc with a bow can kill a few dozen without even using his sword

Except they dont have rotting hands. They have sinister claws, mutated with dark magic. They also dont have rotting flesh, it has mutated by dark magic into steel-like carapace. Honestly saying that the Scourge is inferior becouse they dont have equipment is like saying that Zerg are inferior to Terrans becouse they dont use pulse rifles and power armour. Pretty much every undead with exception of basic skeletons (and probably zombies, but I wouldnt bet my money on that one) has been somehow imbued/mutated by dark magic when raised.



1. Nagas aren't corrupted by a specific evil, they were just mutated

Directly from WoWwiki:

When the Well of Eternity imploded at the conclusion of the War of the Ancients, sundering the world, the Highborne inhabitants of Zin-Azshari were trapped in the blast. At the last second, Azshara struck a deal with the Old Gods for her survival. Azshara and her followers were dragged down beneath the raging sea... but they did not die. Twisted by the Old Gods, invigorated by the Well's energies, they took on new shapes, new powers and became the hateful, serpentine naga.
Not only they were corrupted by the specific evil, they were corrupted by the most powerful, ancient, dark evil that you can found in Warcraft universe. And they can be raised as undead

2. Can satyrs be raised?

I think I saw an undead satyr, either as a neutral unit in Warcraft 3 or as a mob in WoW, but I am not really sure. However becouse they felt that they had to point out that centuars infact cannot be raised as undead and they didnt make similiar remark on satyrs, I guess they can.

3. Orcs and blood elves were never totally corrupted

Ummm infact orcs were totally corrupted. They were so corrupted, that they skin turned to green ( orcs completly untouched by demons have brown skin and with exception of one neutral faction there are no orcs with brown skin left in Warcraft universe, so even Thrall orcs are partially corrupted), or even red, they size almost doubled, and they eyes glow red with demonic energy
http://www.wowwiki.com/Blood_Curse - I am pretty sure that Sauron orcs have actually less corruption going on than Warcraft orcs. And guess what, they can be raised as undead.
Your whole claim about "unraisability" of orcs is based on one very specific exception from the rule that is caused by unknown and probably very specific conditions. Let this argument die. Please




Except those special circumstances was the LK losing power and being personally attacked. that can happen again

Ummm... those special circumstances involeved:
1) Lich King being significally weaker in pretty much everything than he is in current state
2) One of the most powerful mortal sorceror on azeroth, imbued with demonic powers
3) An body part of one of the most powerful being in Warcraft Universe used as focus
4) The ritual so powerful that if not stopped, it would destroyed the whole Azeroth
And even then, the Lich King was able to keep vast majority of his minions under control.


no really, it was the damage the made him lose power. Sauron can do that, though it might be difficult. And what about a will battle


So yes, if you prove that Sauron can cast spell that would completly annihilate Middle Earth, than yes I can agree that if Sauron would specificaly target lich king with a such a spell than Lich king might lose control over small part of his undead minions. I am not completly sure, becouse he isnt imprisioned in Frozen Throne anymore so his powers are far greater.




1. No he lost a good deal of important minions and positions, schoolamance, Ravenferndowns and plenty of important minions. He lost most of his troops who attacked during the scourge invasion, as well as plenty of his own elite forces.

Last time I checked Schoolmance, Razorfen downs, Naxxarmas, etc. were at full power, and their bosses were perfectly healthy and ready to fight.


2. And now he has a massive invasion on his hands, smart

Lead by two distinct faction that hate each other. I suspect that more than half of the massive invasions forces will be used in petty bickerings over some random ruins, simmiliar thing happened in Outland.


3. His numbers are really increasing much, he spends most of his troops fighting the Scarlet Crusade and the Forsaken

Or to be precise, the Scarlet Crusade and Forsaken spens almost their entire armed force to fight the Scourge, and they still have to show any kind of serious victory, while the Lich King doesnt even seem to notice.

[Matar]

Did you read this thread, because most of these points were already covered

They were not. They were clamed false with (What I belive) bad reasoning.


sign

The LK seems to have the advantage of numbers in the start yes from first glance. However it isn't quite as plain

The LK is described of having a force in the hundreds of thousands. This means he has a fource between 300,000 and 800,000 (if it was 200 or 900 they would have just rounded or said it specifically) but less than a million. If we count all of sauron's forces, i imagine (though i haven't taken an accurate count yet, he might have more) he could have around 700,000 forces. So it isn't a super advantage, though the LK can raise more undead, but only of saurons human forces

Already covered. But hundreds of thousands can be used for millions as well.


Sign, this has been covered

Sauron does in fact have a massive amount of fertile farm lands (volcanos help) and a working labor force. He has roads that let him move his armies across morder in a few days (or even hours). He can in fact maintian a siege, even if the Dark Tower is attacked, he was able to withstand a seven year siege

This, as stated is, as stated, a weakness however. All he has to do is put his plague on the farm lands. Pollute the food supply, ect.


. Silent watchers, wights, wraiths, Nazgul, phantoms, specters, and spells can keep banshiees in check
2. For the plauge too effect the food supplies they need to phyically infect them. As sauron has his food supplies under total control, no problem
3. You need to get back the black gate and all of saurons forces to get their

1: And these are common? I highly doubt that they personally inspect all the troops.
2: Doesn't matter. Banshees can controll units. It's quite believible that several banshees (And there are alot) can take controll of some orcs, and sneak it in.
3: Again, stealth. However forcing the black gates is impossible, I agree there. However, you don't really need force.


Sauron can create ten thousand uruk-hai in around six months
The LK can only raise humans (not other dark creatures) and even then humans who are burned, rotted, mangled, or beheaded are unraisable. Sauron can maintain a siege and have huge forces at his disposal. Remember Sauron can raise forces from teh dead as well (see dead marches)

Again, this is just a poor assumption. We know centaurs are immune to being raised. We know that they serve a great evil. However, that's *it*. A necromancer stated that the reason they can't be raised was because they served a darker evil and sold there souls to it. You yourself stated that you were not sure Orcs had soul. Hell, the necromancer might even be *wrong*. It was also said to be a mystery, but one necro gave a reason. Really. You can't assume that just because one race is immune to undead from worshipping something evil, that ALL creatures that worship evil are immune.

It's just a silly assumption and should not really be brought into a debate.

And hrm, true. But can he raise them quickly? Are they effective in combat? Can they be raised on the spot? Can they be raised in the thick of combat? If so, please back this up with quotes, or some passage from the book.


Read return of hte king. The orcs mention that each one has a name, rank and number.
They are also mentioned being organized in legions, and having relative uniform equipment. Sauron's plans are also very elaberote and well orginized

There is alot of infighting as well.

Also, can you offer *proof* that orcs are powerful? Uruk-hai, yes. I know those are. But what about Orcs? Again, passages please.


yes i can
1. Look at the LKs forces, they don't have uniform equipment, many of them don't have any equipment at all. Those that do simple have what ever they happen to pick up and those are often rusted, broken or otherwise out of shape.
2. He has no infrastructure at all. With the exception of runeblades, all of his weapons and armor are salvaged from dead troops and tend to be in bad condition (defiantly armor as it had just been torn apart) and many of his troops don't even use weapon (ghouls, zombies, skeletons ect)


1: Most of them don't *need* it. There are brutal undead killers. They feel no pain or emotion and are twisted to killing machines in death.
2: Again, most don't need it.


Um, no, no its not. Orcs are described as good smiths and Morder has an organized infrastructure. the scourge forces only pick up what ever they have at hand, and that is often cruddy condition

No. I meant that, even though most don't need it, they can still use the crap off the bodies of the orcs. Hell, seeing as how the undead don't really *need* it, they can just use most of the crap to replenish the Lich Kings resources and stuff.


1. No he doesn't, if he had complete and total control he wouldn't have lost maybe 1/8 of his forces. complete and total control requires him to never lose control of his forces. Hell apparently death knights are breaking away from him even now, you call that total control?

Yes. Yes he does. There were speacil *circumstances* as to why that happened. His power was leaking from the throne. He just... lost controll because of this. They did not resist, they *couldn't* And honestly, Sauron has not been known to do what created the leak to begin with. And a quote on the Death Knight thing? Offer some proof please. Honestly, this was high grade, world-sundering magic made to just destroy the Lich King. Unless Sauron has used similer blast magics, at great range and such... I doubt he can do anything.


2. The LK losses control when he is damage, weakened, or under pressure. Sauron can do all that

Oh utter bull. the Lich Kings will is great, and that was before he merged. He controlls an army through sheer force of will across three continents.


3. Sauron is the Great Necromancer, i can see him wresting control from the LK

Lawd. The scale of which the Lich King does his Necromancy is far and beyond what Sauron has ever done. That's should not even be up for debate.


7. The LK is rather weak willed, in both of his lives he became evil because he failed a battle of wills (Arthas, Ner'zhul).

...While he was motal. He is stronger now, and Arthas does not count. Arthas was not the Lich King when he was turned. The Lich King *turned Arthas*.


9. The LK has living servants, ripe for corruption by Sauron.

Except not. He controll them, absolutly. They have sold there souls for the Lich King and everything. They are part of his army of the damned dude. Every single one of them.


1. Can you read this thread please? It has been covered many times why Sauron's magic is greater

No. Explane how please? From what I *have* read all of the arguaments for Sauron winning were ether *way* off, making poor assumptions, or useing Logical Fallacies.


3. Banshees can corrupt people? Doesn't say so in their wiki and i don't recall being corrupted

Ah, sorry. No. I meant *controll*. And yes, they can do that quite easily.


6. the LK lost the vast majority of his banshees anyways

True, but not all of them. At least, I don't think he did.


1. If i can bring down a dragon in Warcraft three using archers, then it must be so. I can understand it being hard to use that, but really, they can go down by archers
2. Ok Frost wyrms in WOW don't fly very high, so yeah, no going over the wall their,

Use *lore*. Not game mechanics. Seriously dude, it's just silly and pointless. The lore is correct, the game is meant to be fun. Adding some of the crap to the game, that is in the lore would ruin some of the fun. Jeez~ We went over this already. It is honestly moronic to bring game mechanics into the equation.


3. Almost all of Sauron's forces have long rang, hundreds of thousands of arrows will bring it down

Prove it.


Ever heard of swarms?
A giant bat, or giant crow (cerbain) and giant flies are nasty on their own. Sauron has millions of them along with millions of normal crows, flies, and bats. If each normal bat does a few hit points per hit, and as we know frost wyms can only hit a few per round, they will go down. Maybe ten thousand will die, but its a fair trade. Destroys have no magic to destory when being swarmed by these guys, and every one lost can never be replaced. They can't heal faster than they are being hit. Also do you have any idea how fast flies breed?

Your underestimating the power of there ice sheilds and such. Sorry, but a dragon being killed by a swarm of flies is just insane. A hundred, thousand, whatever being killed by a few million of them... even crazier.

Look, if they are so overwhelming... well. Where has he used them in combat? And did it offer much?


1. Maybe a dozen balrogs tops, with one really big one (duren's bane)

Can he even *do* that? And yes, Balrogs beat Frost Wyrms. But Balrogs are like, one of his strongest units. There comparible to the Death Knight, Liches, and such of his army are they not?


2. their are many many dragons in the third age, but not more i guess than ten thousand (flying, worms and drakes are more populous.) So you have maybe a few thousand winged fire dragons, and a few thousand winged cold drakes

Prove it? I want the quotes.


5. Well Sauron's wind can take care of the zeppelins

Eh, agreed some what. In order for it to have any effect on them the winds would have to be intense. Strong enough to ruin effective archery, and make other flying dudes (Like the flys) useless. Then bring in the Frost Wyrms and Destroyers, and Gargs, and all the other things used to fighting in these conditions.


4. Have we ever seen them go through a hurricane? I haven't

No offence, but you really do not seem to know much about War Craft 3 ether.

The place they live has frequent blizards. They live in that sort of place. They can *fly* in it. Weather is not a problem, and only hurts Sauron really.


3. Lighting does in fact hurt dragons, we know this for a fact

No. We know MAGIC lightninig does. But normal lighting? Not really. Also, can lighting really hit anything in the air? And if it can, how often does this happen?


Ever see a volcano erupt? Once sauron's forces clear out of the way, giant flaming boulders come down from the sky, molten lava comes down, explosions ect.

That is *pointless*. Your assuming they *can* clear out, and that the Lich King won't relize what's going on. And shoot, that would also ruin the land as well.


1. Can destorys even do that much

Constant healing to the troops, and can make it so magics can't cast. I think so. Aura of blight is neat, faster healing rate.


3. Frost wryms can keep up that frost breath forever, in the time it takes for them to wait, they will get shot down

Wut?


effective in a swarm way, not in a tatical way. They can't do formations, they can't properly use range, they can't easily break formations, they can swarm and attack and that is about it generally

You are forgetting all their other troops. Casters and such.


spear walls, shield walls, range tatics, ect. The romans proved that well trained troops are great against organized forces

In real life? Yes, I agree. But in high magic worlds? It becomes alot more useless.


Every six months Sauron gets ten thousand Uruk-hai and more normal orcs. Sauron's lands are vaster so in the time it takes for the Scourge to even get to morder, he can raise huge arimies. His human lands (harad, Rhun ect) will take a while to get to so even if they lose their armies they can renew them with time.[.quote]

And all those that the Lich King kills goes to his side. Uruk-Hai are impressive, but are one of his stronger shock troops.

[quote]And so if the LK gets hurt or losses power, or otherwise unable to maintain control his forces start to break off

Your assume that will happen. And that Sauron can do what did it to begin with.

Hell, he's even stronger now. So even that might not work. 'Course, this is just an assumption and I don't really explect an argument of "Well, he's stronger now, so that tactic won't work again" is silly.


Frostmourn.

That has the power to kill gods. And is one of the strongest swords in the game. It's like the One Ring of Warcraft dude, don't underestimate it.


The LK's elite units are replaceable. Sauron has more, if weaker hard to kill units who can be replaced. Every Crypt lord lost is gone for good, while every giant spider lost can be replaced (remember the spiders are dark creatures as well)

Already proven that saying that they can't be raised is a foolsih assumption with no real logical basis.


um, the cold thing has been countered in the last page

Useing game Mechanics. Not lore.


1. In the lore, an alliance army was able to get up their and stay alive for a good deal of time, and these were humans. What are you trying to pull
2. I complain about the cold here, i'm not going to die from it
3. Orcs are more resistant to cold and eat less
4. Prove to me that it is deathly cold, an army got up their, and is going up their even now

They are setting up camp, that's diffrent from marching an army through the cold. And I did prove it's deathly cold with that quote from the book.


no he doesn't the LK has not corruption powers, and Saruon does

...Yeah. You really don't know much about Warcraft Lore. That statement was so *wrong* it's crazy.


Nope, Sauron was able to maintain a seven year siege no problem.

Hrm. Well, really, I am not sure. It would go ether way based on a few factors, so it is kinda pointless to go on with how long he can last in a seige.


Nazgul beat deathknights, hell the Witch King beats the Lich King (see the thread on that, don't you dare bring it back form teh dead). Also every death knight lost is gone for good while nazgul can just come back

Remember, death knights can break away from the LK's control

Hah! Oh, dear lord. I would rather not. I fear that I might be mentally scared if it uses similer debating techniques as the ones I have seen used here.

Proof? And please don't say the whole "He lost controll that one time". It's already been covered.


Not compared to Sauron, his magic is far greater. I mean he countered direct god magic shot at him from the Valar

And yet, some dude still fought him with magic. It can't be that great -.-.


the dark creatures are also described as thralls to evil. Apparently, being corrupted by evil makes you immune to being raised, then that certainly works for the dark creatures of middle earth

Logical fallacy. This creature is evil, and a thrall and can't be rasied. As such, this creature, who is evil and a thrall can't be raised. Even though these two creatures are not related.


1. It only says it killed the wild life
2. Except three armies seem to have been able to go up their and were fine, armor non withstanding

The cold killed most of the wild-life. It is basically the *north-pole*. You die when your up there. Honestly, please read the lore I posted.

Game Mechanics., once again. And even then they complained. And besides, setting up base and marching troops on an attack are two very diffrent things.


4. unarmed ghouls vs. orcs with bows, swords, shields and spears and armored.

I always heard orcs were pathetic mutated elves that were weaker then most humans. Can you prove they are strong, in any sence? And remember, I mean the orcs, the main bulk of the force. I know that one Uruk-Hai can kill like three ghouls. I am not really debating that. Seems safe enough to agree with.


Humans in Warcraft are better then they are, and remember it is hard to tear something apart with your rotting hands. Also range, an orc with a bow can kill a few dozen without even using his sword

Oh lawd no, no no no. That is *not* how a battle works. Nor is that how undead work. They can do it, seriously. They are quite strong. Well, stronger then humans at least.


as the romans proved, it is useful

In a non-magical world, yes. Quite useful. But when faced with high-magic people? Loses it's effectiveness.


no really, it was the damage the made him lose power. Sauron can do that, though it might be difficult. And what about a will battle

Will=Pointless as stated. And I doubt the Lich King would put himself in a posistion that would make himself lose his entire army. Also, *no*. It was not just a freaking wound. It was gofly insane magic that did it.


Yes because we know Arthas' will didn't fail at a critical moment. Wait....

Arthas, not the Lich King. We are talking about the Lich King dude, who cares about Arthas? Well, otehr then the fact that after they merged, the Lich King got even stronger...

[Rutee]

Matar, one of the forum rules is that Sauron wins because his supporters have infinite stamina. Were you unaware of these rules?

[Matar]

Matar, one of the forum rules is that Sauron wins because his supporters have infinite stamina. Were you unaware of these rules?

Oh man, im sorry. I just joined here and I already broke one of the rules? I feel absolutly horrid now.

I am going to run away crying and fap to Lolican hentai like the horrible. pimply-faced teenager I really am!

*Crys and giggles madly*

[EvilElitest]

Hello...Here is another Lich King defender, willing to jump into the meatgrinder... Be nice :smallbiggrin:

Welcome, but can't you people start a new thread and let this one die?


1) Last time I logged into WoW, most of the land under his influence was overcrowded with his undead minions. Yes players manage to kill thousands of his undead, but he recreates them even faster. And the hearth of the Scourge coruption in Eastern Kingdoms (Eastern/Western Plaugelands) is crawling with his minions with only few players actively interfering there. And Argent Dawn just standing there in few heavily guarded outposts...

Wow, i am so glad i conceded on the game play point. That is because they respawn, you can't use that. Techencilly you would only be able to count ever single undead in WOW once, but WOW's game play isn't to be taken for granted


2) Yes, pretty much every other faction in Warcraft wants to destroy Scourge. Alliance, Horde, Burning Legions, Illidian and his pals.... And yet he remains unchallenged, and while all of those factions gets more and more ruined with endless war he only prospers...
The Burning legion, alliance, hoard have never marched and army against him directly until now, and Illidan's army (which was somewhat ragtag) was able to almost destroy him



Gained allies? What allies? The current situation is far more dire for his enemies than it was 7 years ago.
1. The Blue Dragons have allied with the alliance and other dragons
2. The neubians have made some tedious alliances with the alliance
3. the dwarves in the area and the single human city have unitied
4. The troll tribes have come together
5. The Maugnatars things have unitied as one
6. The frost giants have united
7. The walrus folk are liable to alliance with the ether the hoard or the alliance
8. The alliance and the hoard have destroyed most of his armies in the main land and are on his door step
9. The forsakeon and the blood elves have allied with the hoard and the night elves have allied with the alliance. If he had orginizied his forces and crushed the forsakeon quickly he could have regained control of the plaugelands and pervented the blood elves from retaking their homeland. Now he has an invasion on his hands



The alliance between Horde, Humans and Night Elves that stopped Burning Legion, and was only Azerothian force that has real chance to defeat LK is completly and hopelessly broken,
Um, no their not their attacking him right now in the new expansion


The Burning Legiona and Illidian that retreated into Outlands to recover enough power to crush that annoying LK that betrayed them suddenly realize that there is an endless stream of both Alliance and Horde troops and adventurers pouring out of Dark Portal, and instead of recovering they desperately fight on their homeground, with many of their plans and forces that could destroy LK demolished by the same adventures that should "pick off Lich Kings minions".
The forces of illidian would have been fighting the burning legion anyways and the burning legion always has more men.




Yes I agree, his weaker units that are designed for swarming uses swarming tactics.
thank you



Except they dont have rotting hands. They have sinister claws, mutated with dark magic. They also dont have rotting flesh, it has mutated by dark magic into steel-like carapace.
1. Zombies and Skeletons have rotting hands, ghouls have claws
2. Range man range. A ghoul's range with his claws is only a few feet, a simple orc with a sword can hit him three times before being in danger himself. Now all orcs are good archers and spear men and can use spear and pikes to pick them off before even being exposed to risk. now orcs can also use swords, shields, and axes to inflict greater damage, and armor can hold back claws
3. Carapace? What?


Honestly saying that the Scourge is inferior becouse they dont have equipment is like saying that Zerg are inferior to Terrans becouse they dont use pulse rifles and power armour. Pretty much every undead with exception of basic skeletons (and probably zombies, but I wouldnt bet my money on that one) has been somehow imbued/mutated by dark magic when raised.

A shield wall is pretty damn effective, a spear wall and arrow volly are all lacked by the undead. Undead don't wear armor, they can be hurt by anything. They don't have ranged weapons and inflict less damage upon the orcs. They might be tireless but they can be ripped apart by good tatics



Directly from WoWwiki:

Not only they were corrupted by the specific evil, they were corrupted by the most powerful, ancient, dark evil that you can found in Warcraft universe. And they can be raised as undead

1. They were twisted by the well's magic and the old gods, not solely by one evil
2. They aren't thralls to an evil power
3. Can the be raised?



I think I saw an undead satyr, either as a neutral unit in Warcraft 3 or as a mob in WoW, but I am not really sure. However becouse they felt that they had to point out that centuars infact cannot be raised as undead and they didnt make similiar remark on satyrs, I guess they can.

proof



Ummm infact orcs were totally corrupted. They were so corrupted, that they skin turned to green ( orcs completly untouched by demons have brown skin and with exception of one neutral faction there are no orcs with brown skin left in Warcraft universe, so even Thrall orcs are partially corrupted), or even red, they size almost doubled, and they eyes glow red with demonic energy
http://www.wowwiki.com/Blood_Curse - I am pretty sure that Sauron orcs have actually less corruption going on than Warcraft orcs. And guess what, they can be raised as undead.
If they were totally corrupted then they wouldn't be able to be raised
Yes sauron's orcs have a hell of a lot more corruption going than Warcraft orcs, who at least still generally resemble what they use to be and can break free of the curse

The sauron's orcs were
A) once elves, and taht is a hell of a lot more corruption
B) created by the forces of evil directly, same princible
You can't raise demons can you?


Your whole claim about "unraisability" of orcs is based on one very specific exception from the rule that is caused by unknown and probably very specific conditions. Let this argument die. Please
No, not until i see better proof. A very specific exception to the rule is still an exception to the rule.





Ummm... those special circumstances involeved:
1) Lich King being significally weaker in pretty much everything than he is in current state
2) One of the most powerful mortal sorceror on azeroth, imbued with demonic powers
3) An body part of one of the most powerful being in Warcraft Universe used as focus
4) The ritual so powerful that if not stopped, it would destroyed the whole Azeroth
And even then, the Lich King was able to keep vast majority of his minions under control.

1. So? That means he can lose control if he is weakened (IE, attacked, hindered, harmed, his helment sundered by the WK, broken
2. And a freaking god, please
3. Ok, the direct servent to the greatest evil in the world
4. I thought it just caused and earth quake
5. And if the LK is harmed, then the stronger of his minions can and will break off to fight him



So yes, if you prove that Sauron can cast spell that would completly annihilate Middle Earth, than yes I can agree that if Sauron would specificaly target lich king with a such a spell than Lich king might lose control over small part of his undead minions. I am not completly sure, becouse he isnt imprisioned in Frozen Throne anymore so his powers are far greater.

Isn't his power in his helmet now? Just treat that like the frozen throne




Last time I checked Schoolmance, Razorfen downs, Naxxarmas, etc. were at full power, and their bosses were perfectly healthy and ready to fight.



And last time i checked their raid based. They get killed in game, just respawn. Once something dies once in WOW, it is considered defeated for the purposes of lore



Lead by two distinct faction that hate each other. I suspect that more than half of the massive invasions forces will be used in petty bickerings over some random ruins, simmiliar thing happened in Outland.
Um, illiden is dead in outland. And what every you may think, it doesn't change the fact their are two large powerful armies in his own land that are attacking him directly


Or to be precise, the Scarlet Crusade and Forsaken spens almost their entire armed force to fight the Scourge, and they still have to show any kind of serious victory, while the Lich King doesnt even seem to notice.
Um, yes he has, they've been picking off his forces for a while now. The've killed scores of his forces and have helped the invasion upon the LK. Hell, the burning crusade is working with the alliance now lore wise

from
EE

[Rutee]

Oh man, im sorry. I just joined here and I already broke one of the rules? I feel absolutly horrid now.

I am going to run away crying and fap to Lolican hentai like the horrible. pimply-faced teenager I really am!

*Crys and giggles madly*
Whatever floats your boat and sinks your battleship. I'm just letting you know that this is a waste of time as colossal as Daizengar's Zankantou.

Edit: I suppose all versus threads are technically, but this isn't even engaging.

[warty goblin]

LOTR Orcs are both stronger and weaker than humans in many ways. They have mad endurance and can literally run for days in armor and carrying weapons with very little rest and poor food (see: the non-uruks crossing Rohan, they did after all manage to keep up with the uruks). They also seem to be very strong for their size- Grishnakk is able to run carrying both Merry and Pippin under his arms, both of whom must be relatively close to his own height, although are probably somewhat less widely built. Together they must total a good bit of his body mass. They also *seem* to be immortal ala elves, both Shagrat and Gorbag know an aweful lot about the "Great Siege" which either means orcs have surprisingly good historians, which somehow strikes me as unlikely, or just live a very long time. Given that they are at least possibly made from corrupted elves, this later strikes me as the most likely.


This also gives us a handy quantifier for how often orcs fight among themselves, if they did it all the time it would be highly unlikely that any of them would live that long, let alone rise no higher than commander of some miniscule little watch-tower guarding an already protected pass. The only times orcs are shown to fight each other is either when there is direct dispute about the proper course of action according to their orders (ala Grishnakk and Ugluk, both of whom were serving different masters and had orders that put them in direct conflict) or when their orders run deeply contrary to their own natures and they are allready stressed out- see Shagrat and Gorbag, both of whom were pretty zonked out by all of the preparations and the 'big elvish warrior' on the loose. Sauron clearly trusted the orcs sufficiently to issue them orders to not tamper with the prisoners, and given how long Sauron has been around orcs, I'd think that by and large he would know how they respond in most circomstances. Finding a shirt worth an entire region of the world does not, I think, fall into "most circumstances." Hell, there'd be lots of infighting among violently inclined and disgruntled humans if they stumbled on something worth that much. no, the two examples of orcs killing orcs are hardly proof that the entire race is waiting on a hair trigger to slaughter itself.

Orcs are also considerably smaller than humans, although they seem to be rather larger than hobbits, they in fact seem to be around dwarven size from some of Gimli's comments during the battle of Helm's Deep- he liked fighting orcs because their necks were in easy reach of his axe. They also admittedly are rather easier to break and cause to run, although they still can hold the line pretty well most of the time, particularly supplemented with other, hardier units.

On the equipment thing- equipment matters, a lot. Spears can easily hold off ghouls and suchlike, which need to close to arm's reach to kill. Heck, even a sword would be a significant advantage against something like that. Perform the following experiment: take a padded whiffle ball bat and go have a fight with a friend according to the following rules:
1) One person has the bat 'sword' and is the orc, the other has only their hands and is the ghoul.
2) It takes three hits from the 'sword' to kill the ghoul, since ghouls are pretty tough.
3) It takes only one hit from the ghoul to kill the orc.
4) The ghoul can parry with his forearms, but any hit past the elbow counts as a wound.
5) If fighting in bright light, the orc must fight with one eye shut, to simulate the effects of sensivite eyes.
6) The ghoul player, being mindless, cannot stop attacking or retreat.

My bets are on the orc. Reach matters a lot, for spears repeat the above experiment with a broom handle or something longer. It only gets uglier if we toss in shields as well, which orcs know and make use of.

[Matar]

If they were totally corrupted then they wouldn't be able to be raised

Stop with the Logical Fallacies. Honestly~ It's sorta rediculas and getting to the point where I am just going to have to debate with somone else willing to defend Sauron. Becuase you *really* bring up bad points.

And to Warty:

Wouldn't a spear be worse though? Reach matters, yes. But it would make alot more sence for them to use a hammer or something. Undead... can't really die from stabbing. They have no real vital organs and such.

And for swords. Cutting through a human body completly is quite hard. And undead one seems even harder. They can lose arms, legs, ect. And still fight. Now, a hammer? That proves a problem. But arrows, swords, spears... eh, less so.

[warty goblin]

And to Warty:

Wouldn't a spear be worse though? Reach matters, yes. But it would make alot more sence for them to use a hammer or something. Undead... can't really die from stabbing. They have no real vital organs and such.

And for swords. Cutting through a human body completly is quite hard. And undead one seems even harder. They can lose arms, legs, ect. And still fight. Now, a hammer? That proves a problem. But arrows, swords, spears... eh, less so.

No, spears are pretty much the most efficient hand to hand combat weapon ever designed from what I've read. There's a reason that for most of history spears have been the weapon of choice, they are incrediabely fast, very versitile, and can be very deadly in the hands of a complete moron with very little training. Hell, spears and other pole-arms even remained popular weapons against heavily armored men-at-arms in the late middle ages, when head to toe steel plate was the armor of choice.

Against something that has to attack with its hands and lacks the intelligence to even try to grap the spear haft, its going to be a massacre. Even if it takes a dozen spear hits for an orc to put a zombie/ghoul down, which I honestly doubt (see below), that's a dozen more hits that the undead is going to get in. Remember its very very hard to advance when there's a boar spear lodged in your ribcage, and the large lugs typical of many thrusting spears will keep the ghoul from managing to push itself up the haft.

Spears also can do far more than just thrust, they can slash, pound, trip, and parry in some surprising things. They are also faster than a barehanded human. I have a book at home that gives numbers for the exact amounts of force that can be applied with various types of spear, unfortunately I'm at college, so I cannot check it, but the numbers were very very high IIRC.

And it only gets worse when used intellegently in formation, spear's reach allows them to be used to support other fighters very easily. In short fighting a lot of spear users who know what they're doing, you are never fighting merely the one in front of you, but the two or three people behind him. Ghouls, lacking intellegence and coordination, and assuming they attack headon into the enemies formation, will always be tactically outnumbered by at least three to one against spear users- even if there are more ghouls present at the fight. Each ghouls will have to get close, which it will have to do alone and without coordinated support from their allies, all the while being impaled and impeded by three or four spears, before it can even hope to counter attack.

And yes, actually severing a limb with a sword is difficult, but severing limbs, even against undead, is totally overkill- they do after all depend on their musculature and bones to move- cutting and breaking bones with swords and axes is not that hard at all.

For a modern metaphore, think of ghouls as being men armed with shotguns fighting men with assault rifles in the open. They'll be cut to pieces long before they get into range.

[EvilElitest]

Matar, one of the forum rules is that Sauron wins because his supporters have infinite stamina. Were you unaware of these rules?
And annoying people who won't respond to points as well


They were not. They were clamed false with (What I belive) bad reasoning.

Then shouldn't you have read the entire thread then

Already covered. But hundreds of thousands can be used for millions as well.
no it can't. The official sources is says hundreds of thousands, unless you can provide a source saying millions we can't assume that, other wise i could do the same and give Sauron millions


This, as stated is, as stated, a weakness however. All he has to do is put his plague on the farm lands. Pollute the food supply, ect.

Sauron has total control of his food supply, unlike the human kindom. Also it is hard to infect food, otherwise


1: And these are common? I highly doubt that they personally inspect all the troops.
2: Doesn't matter. Banshees can controll units. It's quite believible that several banshees (And there are alot) can take controll of some orcs, and sneak it in.
3: Again, stealth. However forcing the black gates is impossible, I agree there. However, you don't really need force.

1.All the people killed in teh last alliance of men and elves are phamtons, plus many other things, the entire dead population of Anor and Agmar and the old northern kindoms, and all of the people who died in the dead marshes. Plus the evil spirits of Minus morgul and Dul Guldor
2. Prove it. Also to bring the plauge they need those giant pots. Also the silent watchers, you forgot them
3. Silent watchers. Also the LK does not have enough ghost forces to take over Mordor without his army


Again, this is just a poor assumption. We know centaurs are immune to being raised. We know that they serve a great evil. However, that's *it*. A necromancer stated that the reason they can't be raised was because they served a darker evil and sold there souls to i
You yourself stated that you were not sure Orcs had soul. Hell, the necromancer might even be *wrong*. It was also said to be a mystery, but one necro gave a reason. Really. You can't assume that just because one race is immune to undead from worshipping something evil, that ALL creatures that worship evil are immune.

1. If that necromancer was wrong, why couldn't he raise them
2. But orcs do serve a great evil and own their existence to it. Remember, they were created by the dark powers



And hrm, true. But can he raise them quickly? Are they effective in combat? Can they be raised on the spot? Can they be raised in the thick of combat? If so, please back this up with quotes, or some passage from the book.

Are you referring to the orcs or the undead?
If orcs
1. Six months tops
2. They are effective instantly
If undead
1. Quite quickly, remember the dead marshes. They hadn't even rotted taht much before becoming undead, so it must have been very quick
2. No can't be raised in the thick of combat, except in the dead marshes
3. On the spot? no idea, but i imagine so.


There is alot of infighting as well.
No, not when their is another enemy to fight. It is only when they don't feel externally threated they fight with eachother



Also, can you offer *proof* that orcs are powerful? Uruk-hai, yes. I know those are. But what about Orcs? Again, passages please.

Define powerful. Good archers? Night vision? What are you looking for


1: Most of them don't *need* it. There are brutal undead killers. They feel no pain or emotion and are twisted to killing machines in death.
2: Again, most don't need it.

Do you have any idea how amazing an arrow volley can be against a swarming troop. Now remember, all orcs are archers with good eyes. the rear can simple riddle the undead with arrows. The front ranks can use spear walls, shield walls and armor to kills as many as they can. Range man, range.




Oh utter bull. the Lich Kings will is great, and that was before he merged. He controlls an army through sheer force of will across three continents.

the LK has failed will battles in the past, Sauron is infamous for his super will


Lawd. The scale of which the Lich King does his Necromancy is far and beyond what Sauron has ever done. That's should not even be up for debate.

Raising armies of undead? yes. Controling the minds of others? No. Sauron can control the minds of living and undead, so the LK has another problem, sauron vesting his own men from him


...While he was motal. He is stronger now, and Arthas does not count. Arthas was not the Lich King when he was turned. The Lich King *turned Arthas*.


And Ner'zhul failed a battle of wills as well, they aren't unbeatable



Except not. He controll them, absolutly. They have sold there souls for the Lich King and everything. They are part of his army of the damned dude. Every single one of them.
Um, no. Just no. The death knights can break away, we know that. THe living necromancers, adepts, cultist are just insane, and the half giants and gargoyles have their own reasons. All of exposed to both fear and corrupton
The LK has no magical control over living units, just dead ones


No. Explane how please? From what I *have* read all of the arguaments for Sauron winning were ether *way* off, making poor assumptions, or useing Logical Fallacies.
such as?



Ah, sorry. No. I meant *controll*. And yes, they can do that quite easily.

Source?


True, but not all of them. At least, I don't think he did.

no just most


Use *lore*. Not game mechanics. Seriously dude, it's just silly and pointless. The lore is correct, the game is meant to be fun. Adding some of the crap to the game, that is in the lore would ruin some of the fun. Jeez~ We went over this already. It is honestly moronic to bring game mechanics into the equation.
But a dragon can still go down to archers. We know this, it is possible. We can't throw all mechanics out the window, just the absurd ones. They can go down to archers, we've seen it happen. The LK can heal undead, we have seen it happen. So yes, archers can bring them down



Prove it.
Read every battle involving orcs. Arrows are mentioned, and they said to be good archers (they use poison, but that doesn't do anything)
Under pelonor fields they mention the humans using arrows and darks



Your underestimating the power of there ice sheilds and such. Sorry, but a dragon being killed by a swarm of flies is just insane. A hundred, thousand, whatever being killed by a few million of them... even crazier.

1. A million dragons? Please
2. Well if we go by Warcraft RPG mechancis, just make million of flie swarms, it will work
3. What do flies eat? Oh thats right, carrion. Yeah
4. Giant flies anyone?
5. If every fly does one hit point, and their millions upon millions of flies, think about it.



Look, if they are so overwhelming... well. Where has he used them in combat? And did it offer much?
1. Bats- Battle of five armies (enough to block out the sun for a whole day), the war of the five jewls, the goblin attack in the hobbit
2. Crows- Many and many of them are used mostly as spies, but Cerbian are giant. See in mirkwood, helm's deep, isengard, dunland, Lonely mountian, misthy mountains from what i recall
3. Flies are seen in mordor, described as giant but never see combat, because he didn't need them. I doubt they could attack well



Can he even *do* that? And yes, Balrogs beat Frost Wyrms. But Balrogs are like, one of his strongest units. There comparible to the Death Knight, Liches, and such of his army are they not?

A lot stronger than any of those units.


Prove it? I want the quotes.
Look up dragons, there are six types, all live in the weathered hearth and teh grey mountains. Not many but still


Eh, agreed some what. In order for it to have any effect on them the winds would have to be intense. Strong enough to ruin effective archery, and make other flying dudes (Like the flys) useless. Then bring in the Frost Wyrms and Destroyers, and Gargs, and all the other things used to fighting in these conditions.
True, but if he does that outside the range of the arrows to get ride the zepplins before they even get to mordor then he is good. Also he could do it high enough in the air that it wouldn't effect hte archers.



No offence, but you really do not seem to know much about War Craft 3 ether.

The place they live has frequent blizards. They live in that sort of place. They can *fly* in it. Weather is not a problem, and only hurts Sauron really.

1. yes i do
2. Ah but that is Warcraft game mechanics. You can't have it both ways
3. They never go through a big storm i recall, just winds



No. We know MAGIC lightninig does. But normal lighting? Not really. Also, can lighting really hit anything in the air? And if it can, how often does this happen?
Alright, the lighting is a manifestation of Sauron's will. Gandalf uses lighting magic, Sauron certainly can



That is *pointless*. Your assuming they *can* clear out, and that the Lich King won't relize what's going on. And shoot, that would also ruin the land as well.
What
1. To get to the Dark tower the army needs to past mount doom. An army of orces can fight on the slopes, get destroyed, then it erupts. Flaming rocks from teh sky (fun for all), lava, and ash. Not fun
2. If the LK hopes to take the dark tower, then his besieging army will have to put up with the volcano
3. The land around it already ruined, didn't you read Return of hte king
4. And if the LK realizes what is going on, what can he do? It is next to impossible to out run an volcano so only his flying units and far away infantry can escape


Constant healing to the troops, and can make it so magics can't cast. I think so. Aura of blight is neat, faster healing rate.

Source. Also arrows, bats, flies ect


Wut?
A frost wrym can only use its breath weapon a few times, it has to recharge between every attack. They can get shot at



You are forgetting all their other troops. Casters and such.

But they are in far fewer numbers, once killed they stay dead forever, and their magic is limited


In real life? Yes, I agree. But in high magic worlds? It becomes alot more useless.

Still makes a difference however.



And all those that the Lich King kills goes to his side. Uruk-Hai are impressive, but are one of his stronger shock troops.

It will take the LK ages to march down across conquested middle earth to even get to morder, Sauron's forces can simple renew themselves as time goes on


Your assume that will happen. And that Sauron can do what did it to begin with.
If the LK can get hurt, i imagine it will happen

Hell, he's even stronger now. So even that might not work. 'Course, this is just an assumption and I don't really explect an argument of "Well, he's stronger now, so that tactic won't work again" is silly.

thank you


That has the power to kill gods. And is one of the strongest swords in the game. It's like the One Ring of Warcraft dude, don't underestimate it.

Um
1. What gods? The forgotton one isn't a god
2. So? Good sword, can't hurt the WK, nothing compared to the One ring's overhall power. It is just a good sword, not super special powers


Already proven that saying that they can't be raised is a foolsih assumption with no real logical basis.
Can demons be raised?



Useing game Mechanics. Not lore.
three living armies have invaded northrend. And many living races live up their. What are you talking about



They are setting up camp, that's diffrent from marching an army through the cold. And I did prove it's deathly cold with that quote from the book.

1. you said it killed the vegation, didn't prove it can kill humans normally
2. They marched into the interior and lived their for a relatively long time. hell the dwarves can live in the mountains for a few years
3. And the current armies

...Yeah. You really don't know much about Warcraft Lore. That statement was so *wrong* it's crazy.
Really? the LK corrupted one guy with a single major magical artifact. Who else has he magically corrupted.


Hah! Oh, dear lord. I would rather not. I fear that I might be mentally scared if it uses similer debating techniques as the ones I have seen used here.

You use the exact same style as i do you realize right?


Proof? And please don't say the whole "He lost controll that one time". It's already been covered.

Here about the new death knight hero class? Death knights breaking away from the LK's control to fight for the alliance and the hoard. Yeah....


And yet, some dude still fought him with magic. It can't be that great -.-.

Um, who? The one guy who was totally owned without Sauron breaking a thread


Logical fallacy. This creature is evil, and a thrall and can't be rasied. As such, this creature, who is evil and a thrall can't be raised. Even though these two creatures are not related.

Are they? Their are limits to the LK's undead magic and the Dark creature of sauron are pretty much his dudes


The cold killed most of the wild-life. It is basically the *north-pole*. You die when your up there. Honestly, please read the lore I posted.

And your quote says nothing on how hard it is for humans to live their and i know an army lived up their without ships for several months.


Game Mechanics., once again. And even then they complained. And besides, setting up base and marching troops on an attack are two very diffrent things.
They moved inland, they lived their for a while without supplies, they fought the scourge a and held their own for a while, i mean come on



Oh lawd no, no no no. That is *not* how a battle works. Nor is that how undead work. They can do it, seriously. They are quite strong. Well, stronger then humans at least.

Proof?


In a non-magical world, yes. Quite useful. But when faced with high-magic people? Loses it's effectiveness.

only against casters


Will=Pointless as stated. And I doubt the Lich King would put himself in a posistion that would make himself lose his entire army. Also, *no*. It was not just a freaking wound. It was gofly insane magic that did it.

and Sauron's will is goofy insane magic. Hell, Sauron might just trick him into putting on a ring. Then he is screwed. Or one of his lesser minions



Whatever floats your boat and sinks your battleship. I'm just letting you know that this is a waste of time as colossal as Daizengar's Zankantou.
at least he is civil which is more than can be said for some Lk supporters


Stop with the Logical Fallacies. Honestly~ It's sorta rediculas and getting to the point where I am just going to have to debate with somone else willing to defend Sauron. Becuase you *really* bring up bad points.
ever done a vs. thread? Logic is the prime tool. Now give me some damn sources
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

I'm going to regret adding my two cents on the subject of orcs vs zombies and skeletons but...the lack of pain receptors and vital points without losing any physical strength makes them so much tougher. For natural weapons they've got their bony claws (assuming undead in WoW don't use weapons?) That and the generally crude nature or orcish weapons and armour puts their killing power at pretty close in my mind...

The kobold slams his own head into a nearby wall...

[warty goblin]

I'm going to regret adding my two cents on the subject of orcs vs zombies and skeletons but...the lack of pain receptors and vital points without losing any physical strength makes them so much tougher. For natural weapons they've got their bony claws (assuming undead in WoW don't use weapons?) That and the generally crude nature or orcish weapons and armour puts their killing power at pretty close in my mind...

The kobold slams his own head into a nearby wall...

The lack of pain receptors is admittedly a pretty large advantage, but vital points? Sticking a spear into an arm or leg joint stops the joint from working, pain or no, similarly a spear between the ribs will hold the thing in place, whether or not it has internal organs. Sure undead lack the one hit kill points that humans do, but their bodies don't seem to be any harder to take apart at a physical level. In fact the lack of flesh probably makes it easier, since their bones don't have padding or anything to turn a weapon aside.

That and I've never seen anything in the book to indicate that orcs' equipment is that crude. Unlovely yes, but Grishnakk's knife is sharp enough to cut flesh it's merely resting against, and at least their chieftans posess full body armor (the orc that attacks Frodo in Moria). Orcs are mechanically quite cunning, live a long time, and pretty much exist to kill stuff, I don't see how any of that translates into shoddy equipment.

[Matar]

no it can't. The official sources is says hundreds of thousands, unless you can provide a source saying millions we can't assume that, other wise i could do the same and give Sauron millions

Point taken.


Sauron has total control of his food supply, unlike the human kindom. Also it is hard to infect food, otherwise

It's still a possibility, and quite a dangerous one at that.


1.All the people killed in teh last alliance of men and elves are phamtons, plus many other things, the entire dead population of Anor and Agmar and the old northern kindoms, and all of the people who died in the dead marshes. Plus the evil spirits of Minus morgul and Dul Guldor
2. Prove it. Also to bring the plauge they need those giant pots. Also the silent watchers, you forgot them
3. Silent watchers. Also the LK does not have enough ghost forces to take over Mordor without his army

Though I do have a responce, I just want to be clear on one thing. What are Silent Watchers?


1. If that necromancer was wrong, why couldn't he raise them

That's my entire point. We don't know for sure. That's why I am saying you can't use it for your argument.


2. But orcs do serve a great evil and own their existence to it. Remember, they were created by the dark powers

So do Fel Orcs. Or Two Headed Ogers. Or Mur-gul. And those can be raised. Im sure your starting to see how silly your point is.


If undead
1. Quite quickly, remember the dead marshes. They hadn't even rotted taht much before becoming undead, so it must have been very quick
2. No can't be raised in the thick of combat, except in the dead marshes
3. On the spot? no idea, but i imagine so.

I did indeed mean the undead.

Okay, can the udead leave the Dead Marshes? Also, has he ever raised a dead person on the spot?


Define powerful. Good archers? Night vision? What are you looking for

They are phyisically weaker then humans. And night vision? Sure, but they have poor day-sight.

Kinda counters the bonus dude.


Do you have any idea how amazing an arrow volley can be against a swarming troop. Now remember, all orcs are archers with good eyes. the rear can simple riddle the undead with arrows. The front ranks can use spear walls, shield walls and armor to kills as many as they can. Range man, range.

Casters man, casters. And if it's during the day? Even worse. And the arrows can't hit the fronst troops without hurting the orcs. And banshees, destoryers, ect into the equation... yeah.


Raising armies of undead? yes. Controling the minds of others? No. Sauron can control the minds of living and undead, so the LK has another problem, sauron vesting his own men from him

He can't controll the minds of something without a mind though... And for the point on who all the Lick King has corupted, well.

Kel'Thuzad. Actually, the dude is still alive. He *can't* die without his phylactery being destroyed.

And yes, that is true~


And Ner'zhul failed a battle of wills as well, they aren't unbeatable

When he was mortal and weaker, yes. However we are talking about the Lich King, the current one. You are useing an example of him at his weakest.


Um, no. Just no. The death knights can break away, we know that. THe living necromancers, adepts, cultist are just insane, and the half giants and gargoyles have their own reasons. All of exposed to both fear and corrupton
The LK has no magical control over living units, just dead ones

No we don't. Shoot, we don't even know how the Death Knight system will WORK dude. We might be allied with the Lich King when we go that class.


such as?

Game Mechanics, the inability to raise, ect. Just sillyness.


Source?

Here.

http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/banshee.shtml


no just most

I wouldn't even say most, to be honest. And he can make more.


But a dragon can still go down to archers. We know this, it is possible. We can't throw all mechanics out the window, just the absurd ones. They can go down to archers, we've seen it happen. The LK can heal undead, we have seen it happen. So yes, archers can bring them down

Doubtful, I say. Quote some lore that says archers can take down a Frost Wyrm.

Hm, better yet (and easier). Quote something that says there weakness or something. What hurts them and such. 'Cause, honestly. If they can be taken down by a few archers, then so can the Fel Beasts.


Read every battle involving orcs. Arrows are mentioned, and they said to be good archers (they use poison, but that doesn't do anything)
Under pelonor fields they mention the humans using arrows and darks

During the day? And just because they use arrows dun meant here great at it. Shoot, they lose a big advantage with the whole "Immune to poison thing"


1. A million dragons? Please

I meant a tousand dragons, vs a million flies.


5. If every fly does one hit point, and their millions upon millions of flies, think about it.

Who said it would even deal one hit point of damage? And they are really just bone dude. Besides, ice sheild for the win~ They his the dragon, they get hurt. they basically kill themselves.

I can go with the air of Sauron killing off half the dragons. But still. The air-force of the Lich King is just all-round more powerful. Saurons power is with land and water, or at least it seems that way. And yes, I know, Fel Beasts and Nazgul, but no matter how strong those are they are nothing compared to an entire battalian of undead flyers and such.

Im sure we can agree one two things.

Sauron has better water controll. Lich King, I don't think he has much there.

Lich King has better Air. More options, and each more much stronger the Saurons.


A lot stronger than any of those units.

I just dun see it. Balrogs are basically hero units. they are strong, but VS a DeathKnight, or Lich or something I picture them being just about even.


Look up dragons, there are six types, all live in the weathered hearth and teh grey mountains. Not many but still

You said there were alot >.>.


2. Ah but that is Warcraft game mechanics. You can't have it both ways
3. They never go through a big storm i recall, just winds

Im not. The place has frequent blizzards acording to *lore*. Cold enough to kill most of the animal life as well.

Heck, let's just say it's as cold as Alaska. Im sure it's colder, but whatever. Try walking in Alaska at night, without alot of warm cloths on.

You can die. Quite easily infact.


Alright, the lighting is a manifestation of Sauron's will. Gandalf uses lighting magic, Sauron certainly can

Moot point because we don't know any of that for sure. I will agree with the point that if Sauron was walking and casting the spells directly of lighting, then it would hurt the Frost Wyrms. *But* through something indirect like a storm? I just don't agree with it.

Remember, I am not saying Sauron can't kill the Forst Wyrms, just that the storms he conjures won't help any, and will only hinder his own troops.


What
1. To get to the Dark tower the army needs to past mount doom. An army of orces can fight on the slopes, get destroyed, then it erupts. Flaming rocks from teh sky (fun for all), lava, and ash. Not fun
2. If the LK hopes to take the dark tower, then his besieging army will have to put up with the volcano
3. The land around it already ruined, didn't you read Return of hte king
4. And if the LK realizes what is going on, what can he do? It is next to impossible to out run an volcano so only his flying units and far away infantry can escape

Hrm. This really seems like a "My base is stronger then your base". I will concede with the point that Mordor is damn near impossible to breach. However outside of the gates is still fair-game for the Lich King.

Add to that, Northrind is also very defensive. Think Russia dude, wide open, yes. But the cold and stuff really hurts the army. And with such a large amount of troops that Sauron has, and the fact that you need to get there by sea... eh, kinda makes it very difficult to breach.

The debate of "Who's base is stronger" is kinda endless here. It seems that they are both equal, Mordor the stronger of the two, but still. Instead we should try to focus on the fighting outside of the gates.

Basically. Who cares if you can controll your captial, if the whole world around you is enemy territory with no hope to conquest?


Source. Also arrows, bats, flies ect

Hrm. Odd, I thought they had a healing aura. My mistake, though they can still heal units. Ether way, they are impressive and quite useful.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Obsidian_statue



A frost wrym can only use its breath weapon a few times, it has to recharge between every attack. They can get shot at

Really won't do much. And they would have ground support as well. Shoot, who said they all attack at once? A constant barrage seems possible, and they are intelligent to an extent. Utter controlled, but still itelligent and able to devise tactics.


But they are in far fewer numbers, once killed they stay dead forever, and their magic is limited

Can always get more. There magic is limited in the amount they can cast per day, mana pool and all that. And far-fewer in numbers? Well, yes. In the same way that Uruk-Hai are fewer in numbers to normal orcs.


Still makes a difference however.

Yes, but a much smaller one. Also add to it the meat wagons. They have seige covered as well~

Did we even decide on a spot where this is to take place? You can't judge range without, you know, knowing where they will be on a map.


If the LK can get hurt, i imagine it will happen

By the same though.

If Saurons ring can be tossed into Mount Doom, I imagine it will.

I mean shoot, it has been.

See how faulty this way of thinking is in a debate?


2. So? Good sword, can't hurt the WK, nothing compared to the One ring's overhall power. It is just a good sword, not super special powers

Frostmourn is like, all godly.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Frostmourne


Can demons be raised?

Hrm. I don't know, to be honest. I am sure I saw some undead Sayters, but like... those come from Night Elves.

I am sure Dreadlords are undead as well. I think so at least.

Up in the air, but I would have to say no to be fair.


three living armies have invaded northrend. And many living races live up their. What are you talking about

They are not marching armys of countless orcs all over the place ether >.>. And they might have made there camps in the southern edges or something. I think the place is called "Dragonbleak" and it is freaking COLD there.


1. you said it killed the vegation, didn't prove it can kill humans normally

Most animal life as well.


Really? the LK corrupted one guy with a single major magical artifact. Who else has he magically corrupted.

Already stated above, and I am sure there are others.


Here about the new death knight hero class? Death knights breaking away from the LK's control to fight for the alliance and the hoard. Yeah....

We don't know that that is how it works. And the video suggests we are on the Lich Kings side...


Um, who? The one guy who was totally owned without Sauron breaking a thread

Some dude for LoTR. I just know him by name. I think it started with an "F".

If you want, I can try to find the dudes full name. But it was posted on some other thread around here.



Are they? Their are limits to the LK's undead magic and the Dark creature of sauron are pretty much his dudes

Hrm. Again, we don't know what exactly does it.

I'd bring up the point that Paladins are also supposed to be immune to undeath through simple virtue of being a paladin, and yet the Lich King turned quite a few into undead. But honestly, it's silly and not really related. Just because he can do something that was supposed to be impossible, doesn't mean he can do the same with something else.

If I suggested that, it would be a logical Fallacy. This is what you are doing, see?


And your quote says nothing on how hard it is for humans to live their and i know an army lived up their without ships for several months.


Again, were they marching through the snow and such like the orcs would have to? And where were they camped?


They moved inland, they lived their for a while without supplies, they fought the scourge a and held their own for a while, i mean come on

When exactly? I do not seem to recall this, sadly.


Proof?

From Monster of Manuels

[i[Zombies are despicable, degraded creatures with little purpose other than to serve as cannon fodder for Ner’zhul’s massive forces. They are sorrowful creatures, capable of great strength but holding little hope for salvation other than their own deaths[/i]


only against casters

And the main troops when the casters are done.


and Sauron's will is goofy insane magic. Hell, Sauron might just trick him into putting on a ring. Then he is screwed. Or one of his lesser minions

And one of the Lich Kings troops MIGHT find the One Ring and toss it into a volcano. Or the Lich Kings will MIGHT be strong enough to not be effected by the ring. Or the ring MIGHT NOT effect undead like it does living things.

Mights are just silly.

[Rutee]

Uh, the Death Knight theory was me. I was merely speculating. That really can't be taken as fact.

[Matar]

Uh, the Death Knight theory was me. I was merely speculating. That really can't be taken as fact.

Who did what with the where now?

[Rutee]

Who did what with the where now?

The "PC Death Kniggits broke from Sauron" theory you have to refute for some insane reason. The only place I have EVER seen that was my own posts. There's seriously no reason to believe it's the truth :P

[warty goblin]

Matar, I don't feel like screwing around with the ten zillion quote tags that it would take to do a proper rebutal of your (quite good) points this time of night, so I'll just do this one:

It is in fact eminantly possible to fire arrows over a formation without shooting one's own men in the back, parabolic flight path and all that. Now of course it is inadvisable to try and drop these arrows directly in front of your own lines, but aiming for a point a hundred feet farther out will still have the effect of thinning out the enemy and producing meaningful casualties without undo risk to one's own men/orcs.

[Matar]

Matar, I don't feel like screwing around with the ten zillion quote tags that it would take to do a proper rebutal of your (quite good) points this time of night, so I'll just do this one:

Heh. Thanks for the compliment~


It is in fact eminantly possible to fire arrows over a formation without shooting one's own men in the back, parabolic flight path and all that. Now of course it is inadvisable to try and drop these arrows directly in front of your own lines, but aiming for a point a hundred feet farther out will still have the effect of thinning out the enemy and producing meaningful casualties without undo risk to one's own men/orcs.

Hrm, true. My point was more that if your troops, and the enemys are fighting. Raining arrows on the troops in the front line is crazy.

Also, as you seem to know alot archery and such. The way they fire arrows at long range (Up, so that it arches down) well, just to be perfectly sure, huricane force winds can make that really ineffective, right? Just so that there are no misunderstandings or anything.

[EvilElitest]

Point taken.

Thank you, though if you find an accurate number i'll gladly read it



It's still a possibility, and quite a dangerous one at that.

For the LK to get to the food suplie he need to take over most of mordor. I can see it happing if he can lay seige to he darktower and send a lesser force to destroy it, but it sure as hell better be a well organized force


Though I do have a responce, I just want to be clear on one thing. What are Silent Watchers?
Their are the silent watchers and the "watchers" The silent watchers seem to be evil spirits that infest minus morgul, undead spirits of similar nature to the nazgul, but in a lesser state, or the Barrow wights. they posses great powers and seem to be incorpral. They are powerful enough to make Gandalf fear attacking them even with an army of 7,000 at his back.



That's my entire point. We don't know for sure. That's why I am saying you can't use it for your argument.
Sign, i'll cover this later see later


So do Fel Orcs. Or Two Headed Ogers. Or Mur-gul. And those can be raised. Im sure your starting to see how silly your point is.

Fel orcs are just demonic tainted orcs, they and two headed orgers can and will break free of teh burning legion. none of the examples you've mentioned own their existence to a dark power, they just serve one


Okay, can the udead leave the Dead Marshes? Also, has he ever raised a dead person on the spot?

1. Yes
2. In combat? I don't think so. In a short period of time. Yes


They are phyisically weaker then humans. And night vision? Sure, but they have poor day-sight.

Kinda counters the bonus dude.

1. Their not that weak accully, But Warty Goblin already covered that
2. Sauron blots out the sun. That only barely hinders a few members of the LK's forces, but a few is something


Casters man, casters. And if it's during the day? Even worse. And the arrows can't hit the fronst troops without hurting the orcs. And banshees, destoryers, ect into the equation... yeah.

1. No sun remember. Also most undead have darkvision 60 feet, not the range of a good arrow.
2. Not enough caster/orc range. For every one caster, you have mabye ten thousand archers (almost all of Saurons minions have long range, even trolls and giants). now arrows can kill casters and once casters die, the LK is never getting them back


He can't controll the minds of something without a mind though... And for the point on who all the Lick King has corupted, well.

Kel'Thuzad. Actually, the dude is still alive. He *can't* die without his phylactery being destroyed.

And yes, that is true~
1. Sauron can bend any evil to his will, including undead in his own setting. So it can be plausible that he could tear away the undead who resist his control from teh start (Ke'Thuzad wouldn't work as he is loyal normally i think but...)
2. I'll tell you want, i'm going to go look up in the WOW RPG books necromancers to see if they can rebulk undead.
3. I never said Kel'thuzad was dead.
4. Thanks



When he was mortal and weaker, yes. However we are talking about the Lich King, the current one. You are useing an example of him at his weakest.

Alright, has he ever showed any sign of super will power?



No we don't. Shoot, we don't even know how the Death Knight system will WORK dude. We might be allied with the Lich King when we go that class.

1. Alright, lets wait and see Damn it rutee, it was you
2. Blizzard let us play truly evil characters? don't get your hopes up




Game Mechanics, the inability to raise, ect. Just sillyness.
except said can be said for any point.
1. Game mechanics
you do realize this goes both way, on one hand you use game mechanics, on the other you try to deny them. Not cool, have it one way or another
2. Alright, fine, i'll look up undeath in teh WOW RPG books




Here.

http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/banshee.shtml

Thanks, but it doesn't seem perfect. The still can't bring the plague their, and Sauron can detect magic
Do they even know where sauron keeps his fields? Or if he has them? Remember they only know what they can logically learn


I wouldn't even say most, to be honest. And he can make more.


1. the vast majority went with the forsaken
2. Doesn't he need elven souls to make them?




Doubtful, I say. Quote some lore that says archers can take down a Frost Wyrm.

Hm, better yet (and easier). Quote something that says there weakness or something. What hurts them and such. 'Cause, honestly. If they can be taken down by a few archers, then so can the Fel Beasts.

If Warcraft needs lore for every single point, then i call foul. Most of the understanding of the game uses mechanics. Provide me a scource that dragons can't be hurt by arrows, because if they couldn't then my units couldn't hurt them
Hell in that websight you linked, it has a whole page on countering air units, arrows are included (http://www.battle.net/war3/basics/airunits.shtml)
Also fel beasts can be killed by arrows

During the day? And just because they use arrows dun meant here great at it. Shoot, they lose a big advantage with the whole "Immune to poison thing"


1. no sun
2. they are good, in return of hte king a goblin archer shoots a guy straight in the eye while running, with the enemy only a few feet behind him. Another shoots Frodo in the chest in moria, Isildur and Bormir are badass and go down by arrows, the Riders of Rohan are briefly driven back by arrows
3. Yeah the poison thing sucks, but the LK's living minions are still exposed


I meant a tousand dragons, vs a million flies.

Do you know how fast flies breed? millions of flies. Useless for attacking i admit, but great for arrial defense


Who said it would even deal one hit point of damage? And they are really just bone dude. Besides, ice sheild for the win~ They his the dragon, they get hurt. they basically kill themselves.
A giant evil fly? A point of damamge i'd say. Sure lets be realistic, most likely the entire swarm would go down aftering bringing down maybe half the dragons, but the swarms can be brought back. Also ice shield doesn't last for ever and flies die no problem


I can go with the air of Sauron killing off half the dragons. But still. The air-force of the Lich King is just all-round more powerful. Saurons power is with land and water, or at least it seems that way. And yes, I know, Fel Beasts and Nazgul, but no matter how strong those are they are nothing compared to an entire battalian of undead flyers and such.

Dragons? Balrogs? Giant bats? Vampires? Fel Beats without riders? Giant flies? Carbin? Crows? Normal flies.

Im sure we can agree one two things.

Sauron has better water controll. Lich King, I don't think he has much there.


Lich King has better Air. More options, and each more much stronger the Saurons.
But he is on the offensive, where sauron can use his units to hte max. Also they don't fly that high, you forget archers on all of his units. Their are litterally hundreds of thousands of orc archers, troll/mountain stone throwers and catapults.



I just dun see it. Balrogs are basically hero units. they are strong, but VS a DeathKnight, or Lich or something I picture them being just about even.

Balrogs can hold back gods (see Ungoliont, or however you spell it) and Beings like gandalf. He doesn't have many, but they are unspeakably powerful


You said there were alot >.>.

A whole mountain range and the witherned hearth (a massive field). And a desert to the north. That is pretty good numbers, ok maybe a few thousand but still



Im not. The place has frequent blizzards acording to *lore*. Cold enough to kill most of the animal life as well.

But not enough to kill all human life, those dwarves were able to live their for a few years and orcs are resistant to cold


Heck, let's just say it's as cold as Alaska. Im sure it's colder, but whatever. Try walking in Alaska at night, without alot of warm cloths on.

1. The russians were able to send and army over their and lasted for a while
2. But there is an army attacking at the moment? I mean come on




You can die. Quite easily infact.
Then how did Arthas army that was on the offensive last as long as it did?



Moot point because we don't know any of that for sure. I will agree with the point that if Sauron was walking and casting the spells directly of lighting, then it would hurt the Frost Wyrms. *But* through something indirect like a storm? I just don't agree with it.

Magic in LOTRS is a manifestion of will. The land of mordor is bound to Sauron's will. Thus the storm would be to
Also the valar used magic lighting storms in the past



Hrm. This really seems like a "My base is stronger then your base". I will concede with the point that Mordor is damn near impossible to breach. However outside of the gates is still fair-game for the Lich King.

Sauron can just build a massive army then, once he out numbers the LK the tables are turned even more. Sauron has lands other than morder remember



Add to that, Northrind is also very defensive. Think Russia dude, wide open, yes. But the cold and stuff really hurts the army. And with such a large amount of troops that Sauron has, and the fact that you need to get there by sea... eh, kinda makes it very difficult to breach.

doesn't work for Sauron's army dude, they don't care about losses. They come to destroy not to counqer, and sauron would only attack if the LK had lost most of his forces


The debate of "Who's base is stronger" is kinda endless here. It seems that they are both equal, Mordor the stronger of the two, but still. Instead we should try to focus on the fighting outside of the gates.

Don't be silly, the defensive positions are included in their lists of advantages

Also what about Sauron's other fortresses? Dul Guldor? Moria? The lonely mountain? Mt. Gundabad? the Misty and Grey Mountians? isengard? Agmar?
Mirkwood? Umbar? Numdimor? Rhuin? Harad? The other lands to the east and south? The shire? Angband (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angband_%28Middle-earth%29)?
Olgiliath?



Hrm. Odd, I thought they had a healing aura. My mistake, though they can still heal units. Ether way, they are impressive and quite useful.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Obsidian_statue


sure


Really won't do much. And they would have ground support as well. Shoot, who said they all attack at once? A constant barrage seems possible, and they are intelligent to an extent. Utter controlled, but still itelligent and able to devise tactics.

They are damn big targets, with the ariel problems they already have, along with archers they will have problems



Can always get more. There magic is limited in the amount they can cast per day, mana pool and all that. And far-fewer in numbers? Well, yes. In the same way that Uruk-Hai are fewer in numbers to normal orcs.
how do you get more? Dragons are dark creaters along with fel beasts (can demons get raised?) And uruk-hai


Yes, but a much smaller one. Also add to it the meat wagons. They have seige covered as well~
Meat weagons have crap range, Sauron's dudes have inhuman realms. Sauron's catapults were able to shoot over walls so high that the defenders didn't even think siege weapons could work from lower ground and out of arrow range



Did we even decide on a spot where this is to take place? You can't judge range without, you know, knowing where they will be on a map.
Sauron has all of his lands, the LK has his. Now the LK has to attack if he wants any chance of victory





If Saurons ring can be tossed into Mount Doom, I imagine it will.

Who is going to throw it? Word of God says that no being can willingly throw it in.


I mean shoot, it has been.

See how faulty this way of thinking is in a debate?

Its based on logic. Sure the ring can be destroyed and thus sauron. But who is going to do it? If the LK is damage enough his control might slip. Who can do it? Well the WK for one



Frostmourn is like, all godly.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Frostmourne


It is just a really good sword, useful, but doesn't make a huge difference. Hell it doesn't even hurt the WK


Hrm. I don't know, to be honest. I am sure I saw some undead Sayters, but like... those come from Night Elves.

If you find a source i'll be very willing to listen

I am sure Dreadlords are undead as well. I think so at least. (http://www.wowwiki.com/Nathrezim)
nope

Up in the air, but I would have to say no to be fair.
The dark creatures in middle earth function in the same nature as the demons from WOW So no undeath sorry. Sauron's human minions can be raised though


They are not marching armys of countless orcs all over the place ether >.>. And they might have made there camps in the southern edges or something. I think the place is called "Dragonbleak" and it is freaking COLD there.


1. Orc are resistant to cold
2. Can you provide a source, i recall Arthas went inland
3. They were able to stay around without supplies (no ships) for a while however


Most animal life as well.
You point?


Already stated above, and I am sure there are others.

You still havn't show his magical corruption powers


We don't know that that is how it works. And the video suggests we are on the Lich Kings side...


We can't say for now
Some dude for LoTR. I just know him by name. I think it started with an "F".


If you want, I can try to find the dudes full name. But it was posted on some other thread around here.

Do you mean the elven lord from the tale of Beron? The one who sauron was torturing for fun and easily dominated?


Hrm. Again, we don't know what exactly does it.

I'd bring up the point that Paladins are also supposed to be immune to undeath through simple virtue of being a paladin, and yet the Lich King turned quite a few into undead. But honestly, it's silly and not really related. Just because he can do something that was supposed to be impossible, doesn't mean he can do the same with something else.

1. The paladins who turned evil did so willingly
2. I'll look up undeath as well


If I suggested that, it would be a logical Fallacy. This is what you are doing, see?
Not what i'm doing, the paladins are protected by virtue of holy magic, which sauron lacks. The centaurs and demons are protected by viture of evil magic, which sauron has


Again, were they marching through the snow and such like the orcs would have to? And where were they camped?

Don't look at me, i just know they managed to get inland, live a few month without supplies, and were still able to fight


When exactly? I do not seem to recall this, sadly.

Look over the missions, after Arthas burns his own ships his troops move inland


From Monster of Manuels

[i[Zombies are despicable, degraded creatures with little purpose other than to serve as cannon fodder for Ner’zhul’s massive forces. They are sorrowful creatures, capable of great strength but holding little hope for salvation other than their own deaths[/i]

Now loot at their stats


And the main troops when the casters are done.

Warty goblin already showed why weapons are an advantage against normal troops


And one of the Lich Kings troops MIGHT find the One Ring and toss it into a volcano. Or the Lich Kings will MIGHT be strong enough to not be effected by the ring. Or the ring MIGHT NOT effect undead like it does living things.

Nope, word of god beats all of those
1. No being can willinly throw the ring into the fire
2. the LK is extremely proud and evil, very easily exposed to corruption
3. The Ring effects all beings

from
EE

[Matar]

Their are the silent watchers and the "watchers" The silent watchers seem to be evil spirits that infest minus morgul, undead spirits of similar nature to the nazgul, but in a lesser state, or the Barrow wights. they posses great powers and seem to be incorpral. They are powerful enough to make Gandalf fear attacking them even with an army of 7,000 at his back.

Still, the Banshees can posses a body and sneak in well enough. This really comes down to "It works or it don't". 50/50 chance. It just seems hard to fathom being able to honestly inscpect all those damn troops.


Fel orcs are just demonic tainted orcs, they and two headed orgers can and will break free of teh burning legion. none of the examples you've mentioned own their existence to a dark power, they just serve one

...What? Your entire point was that Centaurs serve a great evil, and can't be raised because of who they serve. And that because Sauron is a greater evil, the Orcs can't be raised ether.

Now your saying it's not that they *serve* a greater evil, so much that they owe there existance to a great evil. Centaurs don't own there existant to a great evil though, they are just thralls of one.

What is it? Are they immune from being thralls of a greater evil, or being created from one?

Being created from one is no proof, because we have no way of knowing if being created from can be raised or not.

And being immune because of being thralls is again, just as silly. We know nothing of how being a thrall makes them immune. It could be from a spell, ritual, pact, *anything*. We have no idea.


2. In combat? I don't think so. In a short period of time. Yes

Still overwhelmed by undead~ Remember, they can have undead raised in combate, instantly increasing there rank.


1. Their not that weak accully, But Warty Goblin already covered that
2. Sauron blots out the sun. That only barely hinders a few members of the LK's forces, but a few is something

Not really. Undead work perfectly fine in the dark. They, you know, don't really see with there eyes anyways (Look at there pictures)


1. No sun remember. Also most undead have darkvision 60 feet, not the range of a good arrow.

Of course, DnD rules dun really translate well to something like Warcraft.


2. Not enough caster/orc range. For every one caster, you have mabye ten thousand archers (almost all of Saurons minions have long range, even trolls and giants). now arrows can kill casters and once casters die, the LK is never getting them back

That... that would put Saurons numbers into the millions. They have thousands of casters dude. There an *army*. An army in a high magic world.


1. Sauron can bend any evil to his will, including undead in his own setting. So it can be plausible that he could tear away the undead who resist his control from teh start (Ke'Thuzad wouldn't work as he is loyal normally i think but...)

Can't. They are bound to the Lich Kings rule. They don't *think* and they don't have a choice. This is why the Lich King is such an awsome advisary with Sauron. The only way for this to happen is for the Lich King to lose controll of the unit.


2. I'll tell you want, i'm going to go look up in the WOW RPG books necromancers to see if they can rebulk undead.

Rebulk?


Alright, has he ever showed any sign of super will power?

He controlls the Scourge through sheer force of will. Sauron doesn't even do this dude. If that's not will power, I don't know what is.

This is why I say the Lich Kings will power is quite possibly greater then Saurons. The Lich King can corrupt, maybe not as great as Sauron but still.


1. Alright, lets wait and see Damn it rutee, it was you
2. Blizzard let us play truly evil characters? don't get your hopes up

It's possible. And going by the vid, seems more then likely.


1. Game mechanics
you do realize this goes both way, on one hand you use game mechanics, on the other you try to deny them. Not cool, have it one way or another

It's when you go by game-mechanics over lore that is wrong. Some game-mechanics? Yes. But not when it counters lore.

Example. In game-mechanics undead raised from Necro's are temperary. In lore? And is WoW? They last forever.


Thanks, but it doesn't seem perfect. The still can't bring the plague their, and Sauron can detect magic
Do they even know where sauron keeps his fields? Or if he has them? Remember they only know what they can logically learn

Well. When Banshees take controll of a unit, it gains their memories (This is a safe assumption, as I am sure you can agree. If this was not true, then they would not be able to cast spell when they take over casters. And I think it says as much on the Wiki.)

Banshees can be used for the exact same thing Saurons corruption can. So really. They will know where, unless the orcs don't know.


1. the vast majority went with the forsaken
2. Doesn't he need elven souls to make them?

I thought so as well at first, but no.

Today, females of many races have become banshees (and a few males, as well, though they are exceptionally rare

Manuel of Monsters


If Warcraft needs lore for every single point, then i call foul. Most of the understanding of the game uses mechanics. Provide me a scource that dragons can't be hurt by arrows, because if they couldn't then my units couldn't hurt them

This is more of a "It makes sence, logically, but no one ever talks about it.

I can do it by comparing the stats of several units but that seems to bother you. Remember dude, you shouldn't use game mechanics if it goes against lore. And no one really talks about killing Frost Wyrms.


1. no sun
2. they are good, in return of hte king a goblin archer shoots a guy straight in the eye while running, with the enemy only a few feet behind him. Another shoots Frodo in the chest in moria, Isildur and Bormir are badass and go down by arrows, the Riders of Rohan are briefly driven back by arrows
3. Yeah the poison thing sucks, but the LK's living minions are still exposed

Hrm, For two, was this in the books or the movies?

And yeah, poison would work on the living dudes, but those are far and few between, as I am sure you know.


Do you know how fast flies breed? millions of flies. Useless for attacking i admit, but great for arrial defense

They can work against living things, yes. But undead dragons? Destroyers? I dun think so really.


A giant evil fly? A point of damamge i'd say. Sure lets be realistic, most likely the entire swarm would go down aftering bringing down maybe half the dragons, but the swarms can be brought back. Also ice shield doesn't last for ever and flies die no problem

Ice sheild lasts a real nice time. And not even half really. And to be perfectly honest? I don't know if undead can be re-risen or not.


Dragons? Balrogs? Giant bats? Vampires? Fel Beats without riders? Giant flies? Carbin? Crows? Normal flies.

Im sure we can agree one two things.

Sauron has better water controll. Lich King, I don't think he has much there.

While they do have some interesting things, they just don't compare to an Army of Frost Wyrms, Gargs, Destroyers, Banshees, and god knows what other units that have been made in WoW.



But he is on the offensive, where sauron can use his units to hte max. Also they don't fly that high, you forget archers on all of his units. Their are litterally hundreds of thousands of orc archers, troll/mountain stone throwers and catapults.


That would put his numbers soooo much higher then what we first agreed on. Now, I want some proof. You asked me the same, so I ask it of you.

Give me a quote that stats how many Archers he has. Doesn't have to be an exact number, but still. (Or even a number. It could be most, some, ect of his troops)


Balrogs can hold back gods (see Ungoliont, or however you spell it) and Beings like gandalf. He doesn't have many, but they are unspeakably powerful

Seems tough to beat. Any idea how many? About, what... 20? 100? 500? What?


But not enough to kill all human life, those dwarves were able to live their for a few years and orcs are resistant to cold

How are orcs resistant to cold? And yes it is. Look~

http://www.wowwiki.com/The_Road_to_Damnation

And the needed quote.

A pack of wolves stalked Kel'Thuzad for miles, just out of spell range, before they fell behind. Glancing warily over his shoulder, he saw them snarl and flatten their ears before darting away. Thankfully the arctic winds were dying out as well. In the distance he could make out the summit, a bleak mountaintop, the sight of which gave him a sense of triumph and foreboding. The very peak of Icecrown. Few explorers had ventured onto the glacier, and even fewer had survived to tell the tale. But he, Kel'Thuzad, would scale its heights alone and look down on the rest of the world.

Unfortunately almost no maps existed of the frigid continent of Northrend, and he found them woefully inadequate, like the supplies he'd proudly packed for this journey. Uncertain of the path ahead and his ultimate destination, he could not teleport. Not sparing himself, he staggered onward. He had lost track of how long he'd been walking. Despite his fur-lined cloak, he was shivering uncontrollably. His legs felt like pillars of stone: awkward and numb. His body was beginning to shut down. If he didn't find shelter soon, he was going to die out here.

If that's not proof, I don't know what is.


1. The russians were able to send and army over their and lasted for a while
2. But there is an army attacking at the moment? I mean come on

The russians kinda live there >.>. they have better access to resources, and add to that they are properly equiped for it.

An army attacking? It seems to me that they are more like out-posts. ANy proof it's a full-fleged army like Sauron would be useing?


Then how did Arthas army that was on the offensive last as long as it did?

Undead I do believe.

You mean alive? Not sure, I dun think they have any lore about it really. Im sure it wreacked havoc on the troops though. Look at how cold the damn place is.


Magic in LOTRS is a manifestion of will. The land of mordor is bound to Sauron's will. Thus the storm would be to
Also the valar used magic lighting storms in the past

Arn't Valar much stronger the Sauron though? And I still say lighting would be useless. There bone and skin, and flying and such.


Sauron can just build a massive army then, once he out numbers the LK the tables are turned even more. Sauron has lands other than morder remember

Nothing to compare to the Mordor in defence though, I am sure. Besides, there must be a limited amount of room in Mordor.


doesn't work for Sauron's army dude, they don't care about losses. They come to destroy not to counqer, and sauron would only attack if the LK had lost most of his forces

Bonus. Lack of fear of death helps the Lich King. More troops for teh Lich.


Don't be silly, the defensive positions are included in their lists of advantages

Also what about Sauron's other fortresses? Dul Guldor? Moria? The lonely mountain? Mt. Gundabad? the Misty and Grey Mountians? isengard? Agmar?
Mirkwood? Umbar? Numdimor? Rhuin? Harad? The other lands to the east and south? The shire? Angband?
Olgiliath?

All breakable I am sure. It's Mordor that unbreachable, not the other places. And I am sure the Lich King would take the other places first.


They are damn big targets, with the ariel problems they already have, along with archers they will have problems

They *are* shoot up, while the frost dudes shoot down and bombared them. They sorta lose alot of momentum on the arrows from shooting straight up.

Also, it's ether stroms or Archers, which ones?


how do you get more? Dragons are dark creaters along with fel beasts (can demons get raised?) And uruk-hai

Already covered. They *can* revive them, I am not going over that again. And Banshees can controll the Uruk-Hai.


Meat weagons have crap range, Sauron's dudes have inhuman realms. Sauron's catapults were able to shoot over walls so high that the defenders didn't even think siege weapons could work from lower ground and out of arrow range

What, tribulets and such? The humans didn't have necros, casers, meat wagons, and dragons on there side ether.


Who is going to throw it? Word of God says that no being can willingly throw it in.

Mindless undead? Give them an order, and they do it. No mind at all. And I don't buy that Sauron has a stronger will then the Lich King. As already stated.


Its based on logic. Sure the ring can be destroyed and thus sauron. But who is going to do it? If the LK is damage enough his control might slip. Who can do it? Well the WK for one

Lich King only slipped because of speacil circumstances dude. A world shattering spell was cast on him. It was meant *only* for him. Not sword wound will do that.

And WK? Well, dude. This only matters on one thing.

Ring Wraths are only souls right?


It is just a really good sword, useful, but doesn't make a huge difference. Hell it doesn't even hurt the WK

Actually, it would be there greatest weakness.


If you find a source i'll be very willing to listen

No, I meant that even if Sayters were undead, that would not prove much. They origanaly come from Night Elves, so it's kinda speacil circumstances.

But I doubt it. Demons I do beleive go back to Abyss upon death. Frostmourn can stop that, it destroys souls, but still.


The dark creatures in middle earth function in the same nature as the demons from WOW So no undeath sorry. Sauron's human minions can be raised though

Make up your mind -.-. I am quite sure demons can't be raised, but that does not mean that orcs can't.

Orcs and demons are nothing alike =\.


1. Orc are resistant to cold
2. Can you provide a source, i recall Arthas went inland
3. They were able to stay around without supplies (no ships) for a while however

No idea. How long was he there? And how do the orcs resist cold? There used to the heat, they live by a dang Volcano.


You point?

Basically, if it kills most plants and animals, then it is cold enough to kill humans as well.


You still havn't show his magical corruption powers

Kel, Arthus, Many Necromancers? Come on dude~


Do you mean the elven lord from the tale of Beron? The one who sauron was torturing for fun and easily dominated?

Some hero, and he used magic on Sauron. Kinda removes the whole "Dispell" thing though.


1. The paladins who turned evil did so willingly

The four horsemen so did not.


Not what i'm doing, the paladins are protected by virtue of holy magic, which sauron lacks. The centaurs and demons are protected by viture of evil magic, which sauron has

Centuars are protected by some unknown means that comes from the evil they worship. And demons are immune not because of evil magics, but because they are demons.

Now, what makes you think that Sauron would know the spell? He wouldn't.


Now loot at their stats

Okay?

They deal more damage then Footmen with a long sword, about three points more. They have less HP, and less armor as well I think.


Warty goblin already showed why weapons are an advantage against normal troops

Spears and swords are really useless on an undead.


2. the LK is extremely proud and evil, very easily exposed to corruption

I bring up the point once more that the Lich King can very well have a stronger will then Sauron.

[EvilElitest]

Still, the Banshees can posses a body and sneak in well enough. This really comes down to "It works or it don't". 50/50 chance. It just seems hard to fathom being able to honestly inscpect all those damn troops.

Sauron's will dominates most of his minions, why do you think they fell
apart after the ring's destruction, his will left hime

...What? Your entire point was that Centaurs serve a great evil, and can't be raised because of who they serve. And that because Sauron is a greater evil, the Orcs can't be raised ether.

Now your saying it's not that they *serve* a greater evil, so much that they owe there existance to a great evil. Centaurs don't own there existant to a great evil though, they are just thralls of one.

What is it? Are they immune from being thralls of a greater evil, or being created from one?

Being created from one is no proof, because we have no way of knowing if being created from can be raised or not.
sign


Look at it this way,
from wow wiki

Raising one of these centaurs as a member of the undead is impossible. Necromancers claim that this is because the horse-beasts sold their souls to a darker power long ago and so cannot be claimed by another

They cannot be claimed by another. Orcs have a similar relationship with Sauron/Morgoth, he owns them, they have sold their souls to him, hell sauron often brands them with the red eye just to show off his control of them.
Look at it this way, when the ring was destroyed all of the orcs simple broke. They didn't break in the moral sense, they simple lost the will to live. They panicked, fled, attacked each other, committed suicide, lost the will to live ect.
However Sauron's human units were totally normal. They rallied, organized and fought directly against the forces of good. They still failed, and their moral broke, but they didn't simply lose the will to live, because they don't share that relationship with Sauron
Also Demons can't be raised, look at it that way




Still overwhelmed by undead~ Remember, they can have undead raised in combate, instantly increasing there rank.

only on certain units


Not really. Undead work perfectly fine in the dark. They, you know, don't really see with there eyes anyways (Look at there pictures)

WOW RPG, undead have darkvision 60 feet. Arrows as you know go a lot further than that. now the orcs use black arrows and dark vision can only see black and white, arrows move fast and are hard to see, so not only will the ghouls not know where the arrows are coming from, they can't make them out properly


Of course, DnD rules dun really translate well to something like Warcraft.

However the WOW RPG is in fact cannon



That... that would put Saurons numbers into the millions. They have thousands of casters dude. There an *army*. An army in a high magic world.
1. The LK only has like one or two thousand casters
2. But it takes time to cast spells, and their are hundreds of thousands of arrows. For ever necromancer lost, they are gone forever




Can't. They are bound to the Lich Kings rule. They don't *think* and they don't have a choice. This is why the Lich King is such an awsome advisary with Sauron. The only way for this to happen is for the Lich King to lose controll of the unit.

Hah, got you their
WOW RPG, three points
1. Undead can break off from the Scourge on their own, Forsaken are doing it even now. hell hte Forsaken are liberating undead even now
2. Necromancers and evil priests can dominate undead
3. Their is a spell called control undead
So his control isn't absolute


He controlls the Scourge through sheer force of will. Sauron doesn't even do this dude. If that's not will power, I don't know what is.

No he just uses powers that he already has been given, like an other necromancer or evil cleric, that isn't will power, that is using necromancy the way it is suppose to be used


This is why I say the Lich Kings will power is quite possibly greater then Saurons. The Lich King can corrupt, maybe not as great as Sauron but still.

The LK doesn't corrupt people. Corrupting somebody is taking control of their mind while they are alive. What the LK does is just what a normal necromancer does, kill it, raise it, control it.



It's possible. And going by the vid, seems more then likely.

If Blizzard lets us play a truly evil character, i'll eat my hat


It's when you go by game-mechanics over lore that is wrong. Some game-mechanics? Yes. But not when it counters lore.

Where in the lore does it show that dragons can't be hurt by arrows? They have a page in that site you linked me saying they can


Example. In game-mechanics undead raised from Necro's are temperary. In lore? And is WoW? They last forever.

And in the cannon WOW RPG it isn't total control


Well. When Banshees take controll of a unit, it gains their memories (This is a safe assumption, as I am sure you can agree. If this was not true, then they would not be able to cast spell when they take over casters. And I think it says as much on the Wiki.)

what? Not they don't. The gain their abilities, not their memories. Your going to need to proof this


I thought so as well at first, but no.

Today, females of many races have become banshees (and a few males, as well, though they are exceptionally rare

how does he make these guys again?





This is more of a "It makes sence, logically, but no one ever talks about it.

I can do it by comparing the stats of several units but that seems to bother you. Remember dude, you shouldn't use game mechanics if it goes against lore. And no one really talks about killing Frost Wyrms.


Alright, well arrows being used to kill Frost Wyrms is both mechanical, logical, and no lore says it can't be done.



Hrm, For two, was this in the books or the movies?

And yeah, poison would work on the living dudes, but those are far and few between, as I am sure you know.

Books, i don't think the movies can be used
As for the poison, gargoyles are living i think, and the cult of the damned and the Thuzad are living




They can work against living things, yes. But undead dragons? Destroyers? I dun think so really.

Um, why not? A swarm can consume anything. It would be more effective against living things, but it will still

I
Ice sheild lasts a real nice time. And not even half really. And to be perfectly honest? I don't know if undead can be re-risen or not.

Undead can't be re raised, taht is a big no no
As for ice shield, yeah it lasts a long time sure. But Sauron really doesn't care if he looses a million flies for one dragon



While they do have some interesting things, they just don't compare to an Army of Frost Wyrms, Gargs, Destroyers, Banshees, and god knows what other units that have been made in WoW.

Fire Drakes go for the destroyers and dragons, poison archers, fear, corruption and domination go for the gargs, cold drakes go for the Frost Wryms, giant bats, vampires, Cerbain go for the Gargs, and flies bats and crows go for everything. After the winds of course, followed by the fel beats and nazgul





That would put his numbers soooo much higher then what we first agreed on. Now, I want some proof. You asked me the same, so I ask it of you.

Give me a quote that stats how many Archers he has. Doesn't have to be an exact number, but still. (Or even a number. It could be most, some, ect of his troops)

sign
All orcs are archers, as are all of his human forces

Now for army size
In his third age army alone he has many thousands

At the battle of Pellonor fields he had seven armies

1. Othgiliath army, had enough men to give up a legion for a gondorian company. Now a company from what we seen in the ranger fight in two towers is 300 men, and legions are 6,000 men. We don't know how many companies he had, but at least a few thousand as that was gonders last standing point and when you can afford to give up around 24,000 troop simple as a vanguard and have some units left over that is pretty badass
2.An army was placed to prevent Rohan from showing up. Now it didn't work as Rohan went through the forest but the it was smaller than the main force, and still had enough men to make the Riders know they were unable to defeat them at all. The riders had 6,000 trained elite calvery with the element of surprise an still knew they would all die if they attacked this group. So the went around them. Now later Gondor sends an army with the aid of the woses to get ride of them, an army larger than the one Aragorn sends to the black gate (7,000) who have the element of surpirse and day light and even then they need the woses help. So something around 15,000 maybe?
3. The Southern men came into the battle after the Riders attacked. Now their calvary was not their main force and it out numbered the riders 3 to 1 (18,000) not even counting their king's royal guard and their larger infrentry forces and their Mumuks. I think their were a score of mumuks, not that many certainly. If their infantry out numbers their Calvary by a good deal, as it is there main force, then that means they must have around 36,000 men plus mumuks and Calvery. The are destroyed but not easily. They are also archers.
4. Easterlings, unknown numbers, somewhere close to the haradrim, but not quick as big. No calvery, smaller infrentry (at this battle at least) so maybe 25,000
4. The black fleet, from the south. This includes a flag ship, 50 great ships, and a hundred and fifty lesser ships. If the lesser ships are sloops, and the great ships are gallons, well you have a damn huge army their. Maybe 50,000? I mean a damn huge army. They also had some minor army band with them that was destroyed by the army of the dead
Now these ships are taken by Aragorn, filled with a freaking huge army (that were suppose to never show up at the battle) including the slaves so he has an even bigger force than the black fleet as the slaves are fighting for him and attacking army five from behind, with the element of surprise, sunrise, and them already fighting the Riders of Rohan an still has a hard fight
5. The rear guard, now this force is made up of half trolls, troll men, deep Hardrim, Varigs of Khand, Half orcs, orc men, men orcs, normal orcs under gothmog, ect. This force is large enough to turn back the entire rohan force (at this point around 4,000) that was in full charge, along with the entire gondor army, trap them, and force them onto a hill. If it wasn't for aragorn arriving they would be dead. Even with Aragorn's massive army, their force was hard to defeat if it wasn't for the sun. Now that is 4,000, plus maybe 55,000 men and they still put up a huge fight. To be fair, army 4 and 3 helped them, so they can't be that absurd. So lets say maybe 30,000 (if walking target could check this for me that would be great, i don't have my books)
6. The guard already at Osgiliath, most likely not that big, but large enough to prevent the Gondorians form retaking the the city. A few thousand
7. The army of morgul, described as the largest ever seen in the third age, so bigger than an of the other an the main force for attacking Gondor
8. The army of mordor, almost as big as army seven, also partook in the most costl part of the battle, the siege

and the force their is said to be nothing compared to Sauron' main force, and not even counting his other lands

Seems tough to beat. Any idea how many? About, what... 20? 100? 500? What?
Meh, Sauron only control a guard, and Durin' bane, so like 20 tops.



How are orcs resistant to cold? And yes it is. Look~


Warty goblin covered that


http://www.wowwiki.com/The_Road_to_Damnation

And the needed quote.

A pack of wolves stalked Kel'Thuzad for miles, just out of spell range, before they fell behind. Glancing warily over his shoulder, he saw them snarl and flatten their ears before darting away. Thankfully the arctic winds were dying out as well. In the distance he could make out the summit, a bleak mountaintop, the sight of which gave him a sense of triumph and foreboding. The very peak of Icecrown. Few explorers had ventured onto the glacier, and even fewer had survived to tell the tale. But he, Kel'Thuzad, would scale its heights alone and look down on the rest of the world.

Unfortunately almost no maps existed of the frigid continent of Northrend, and he found them woefully inadequate, like the supplies he'd proudly packed for this journey. Uncertain of the path ahead and his ultimate destination, he could not teleport. Not sparing himself, he staggered onward. He had lost track of how long he'd been walking. Despite his fur-lined cloak, he was shivering uncontrollably. His legs felt like pillars of stone: awkward and numb. His body was beginning to shut down. If he didn't find shelter soon, he was going to die out here.

If that's not proof, I don't know what is.

think this through for a second. A lone mage, with no warm clothing, no food left, an normal fur cloak walking forward in the snow. And he made it that far inland. he was still able to make it to the LK's base before resorting to magic


The russians kinda live there >.>. they have better access to resources, and add to that they are properly equiped for it.

the russians live in Russia, a lot nastier place cold wise in some areas. Hell, look at the navies people


An army attacking? It seems to me that they are more like out-posts. ANy proof it's a full-fleged army like Sauron would be useing?

read the article on it, it seems like a whole damn army

also their taurin already living up there. WHy didn't he kill them.


Undead I do believe.

You mean alive? Not sure, I dun think they have any lore about it really. Im sure it wreacked havoc on the troops though. Look at how cold the damn place is.


They were able to get inland however, without supplies, that is something

also some of them were able to live for a few more years

Arn't Valar much stronger the Sauron though? And I still say lighting would be useless. There bone and skin, and flying and such.

1. The valar are power, but saruon is close. he couldn't hurt them, but he was able to keep them from hurting him
2. Magic lighting does hurt them, and sauron can use magic lighting, i don't see the problem


Nothing to compare to the Mordor in defence though, I am sure. Besides, there must be a limited amount of room in Mordor.

Orcs are fine with next to no living space, and Mordor is huge, not even counting its three mountain ranges. If he has to, he can have them live in his occupied lands


Bonus. Lack of fear of death helps the Lich King. More troops for teh Lich.

Um, that means the orcs who can't be raised don't have a problem with dying by the thousands to slowly reduce the LK's power


All breakable I am sure. It's Mordor that unbreachable, not the other places. And I am sure the Lich King would take the other places first.

But all are VERY nasty and hard to take. With constent stream of reinforcments from modor, it can be impossible
Dul Guldor is a massive evil summer home of Sauron
Agmar i what the Northrend is based after
Moria is absurdly hard to take
the misty mountains is the largest mountain range in the world and crammed full of goblins/orc
The grey mountains are half that size and full of dragon and orcs
Mt. Gundibad is the largest orc hole in the north
Isengard you know it hard to take
Mirkwood is the world's largest forest and a great place for hit and run
The shire, gladden fields and Anor can act as supply lands and an extra thing for him to take
The north and east are huge an totall under his control
Umber was made by the numidmoirans
Numdimor i a giant island, how is he going to get their
Angband is even bigger than morder



They *are* shoot up, while the frost dudes shoot down and bombared them. They sorta lose alot of momentum on the arrows from shooting straight up.

um, upward slopes with arrows work well, they won't all be below them. True a lot will die, but the frost wyrms will die


Also, it's ether stroms or Archers, which ones?

storm first, wait for it to end, it goes away archers move it along with ariel units



Already covered. They *can* revive them, I am not going over that again. And Banshees can controll the Uruk-Hai.

1. Nope, i counter that. Can demon be raised? Nope? Same relationship. Eastern plaugeland centaurs? Own their soul to another, as the orcs do to sauron
2. Bahshees have limits, and when the person that they take over dies, so do they




What, tribulets and such? The humans didn't have necros, casers, meat wagons, and dragons on there side ether.

um, your point? Sauron's siege weapons can hit them from VERY far away, as well as having demonic fire powers


Mindless undead? Give them an order, and they do it. No mind at all. And I don't buy that Sauron has a stronger will then the Lich King. As already stated.
1. Most of the undead are just dominated, not mindless. With the ring they can break free
2. the LK would have to make the order, he couldn't. It is impossible for him to willingly destroy the ring in any way
3.Stronger will? How the hell? he controls undead, any nercomancer can do that. When has he won a battle of wills? When has he corrupted another being other than Arthas without killing them first (Kel' Thuzad wasn't dominated, just gave into the temptation), when has he ever gotton somebody to do something for him by will alone. Sauron had the corrupted teh greatest minds of his time, he became king of the greatest men in the history of hte world and had them sacerfice to dark god in three years, he tricked the greatest elves of his time, the LK has nothing dude



Lich King only slipped because of speacil circumstances dude. A world shattering spell was cast on him. It was meant *only* for him. Not sword wound will do that.
then why can they still break free now?


And WK? Well, dude. This only matters on one thing.

Ring Wraths are only souls right?
Not really no. They are more like super undead


Actually, it would be there greatest weakness.


to hurt the WK you need a holy anti undead weapon



No, I meant that even if Sayters were undead, that would not prove much. They origanaly come from Night Elves, so it's kinda speacil circumstances.


Sayters can't be raised? Well they are awfully like orcs


But I doubt it. Demons I do beleive go back to Abyss upon death. Frostmourn can stop that, it destroys souls, but still.

1. Twisting nether
2. Can somebody prove this, i have found no evidence. Plenty of demons have been killed permently in Azeroth, they can't be raised


Make up your mind -.-. I am quite sure demons can't be raised, but that does not mean that orcs can't.

Orcs and demons are nothing alike =\.


Demons
Once separate beings who have been twisted by the dark powers to become something more, now dark creatures who own their new existence to hte dark powers

Orcs- once separate beings who have been twisted by dark powers to become something more, now dark creatures who own their existence to the dark powers



No idea. How long was he there? And how do the orcs resist cold? There used to the heat, they live by a dang Volcano.
1. A Few months at least, long enough to move inland and establish a base camp without supplies
2. Orcs don't live in a volcano
3. They originated in cold regions and normally live their


Basically, if it kills most plants and animals, then it is cold enough to kill humans as well.
Then how did a blinking army get up their? How are their already plenty of races living up their



Kel, Arthus, Many Necromancers? Come on dude~


not through magical corruption, just through their own greed. He hasn't even dominated a single being other than arthas magically


Some hero, and he used magic on Sauron. Kinda removes the whole "Dispell" thing though.
Sauron suppresses magic, and was tormenting him. It wasn't a fair duel, it was saruon being mean.


The four horsemen so did not.
Because they had special circumstances, at least two of them are.


Centuars are protected by some unknown means that comes from the evil they worship. And demons are immune not because of evil magics, but because they are demons.
1. Centaur's souls are owned by another who won't share. Like orcs
2. Demons are evil creatures who are powered by evil magics and corrupted into evil creatures by dark creatures. Hmmmm Like orcs


Now, what makes you think that Sauron would know the spell? He wouldn't.

But he can create a similar relationship, he owns the orcs personally, their existence is tied to his in a manner similiar to Centaurs and Demons. Or possible Satyirs





Spears and swords are really useless on an undead.

which is funny because WG just showed you why that isn't true


I bring up the point once more that the Lich King can very well have a stronger will then Sauron.

The LK hasn't done anything that requires strong will, he simple uses necromancer magic, no super will at all

What has he done that shows his amazing will?

And will doesn't help against the will, goodness and modesty does. Which the LK lacks. Even strong willed beings can be corrupted by hte ring
from
EE

[Lizard]

Welcome, but can't you people start a new thread and let this one die?
Well, this thread returned to life quite nicely. Many of the former defenders of Sauron/LK are back, few new ones appeared, and since its ressurection it increased by the pace of around one page/a day.


Wow, i am so glad i conceded on the game play point. That is because they respawn, you can't use that. Techencilly you would only be able to count ever single undead in WOW once, but WOW's game play isn't to be taken for granted
Sigh
Then why did you based your previous argument on one of the most lorebreaking "game elements" in the whole Warcraft Universe- the WoW players?
WoW players daily kill more than half population of "non-friendly" races on Azeroth each day, many of them own weapon or mount that is supposed to be unique in Warcraft lore. You cannot use player influence into argumentation without dragging the gameplay mechanics that are used to clean the mess caused by the player influence with it.
Which brings me to:

And last time i checked their raid based. They get killed in game, just respawn. Once something dies once in WOW, it is considered defeated for the purposes of lore
No......Just no.
Example: I was participating in several alliance raids that invaded and pillaged Orgrimmar and killed Thrall and all his lieutnant. Also I was few time trying to defend Stormwind, Ironforge etc... from Horde raids and was, unfortunetly, quite often unsuccesfull.
So by your logic the Orgimmar, Stormwind, ironforge, etc... are destroyed, most of Warcraft heroes defeated or death, and without them, the Burning Legion has probably already conquered Azeroth. And yet I dont seem to find any piece of evidence in warcraft lore that something of that magnitude really happened....



The Burning legion, alliance, hoard have never marched and army against him directly until now, and Illidan's army (which was somewhat ragtag) was able to almost destroy him
Well to be honest that Illidans army attacked after certain event that almost destryed the whole continent and presumably destryoed and disorganised the whole defense of Norhternd, left Lich King severaly weakened, his most powerful general Arthas weakened and left with majorit of Scourge army on Eastern Kingdoms, fighting with Forsaken and Dreadlords (and Alliance, and Blood elves and Naga, and Night Elves and........). And still the Arthas was able to travel to the Frozen Throne faster that Illidian and his army, than organise ragtagged remains of the Scourge he met into real fighting force and defeated Illidians army which consisted of majority of Blood Elf and Naga armed troops. Not counting defeating Kael'thas, Lady Vash and Illidian themselves.




1. The Blue Dragons have allied with the alliance and other dragons
What? Direct quote from Wowwiki concerning status of blue dragons in Wrath of the Lich king:

Tyrygosa returned to the Nexus with the nether drakes she had taken control of in Outland, where their Nether-warped physiology began to effect the Spell-Weaver himself. This effect helped Malygos to regain some of his lost sanity. As he recovered, the Spell-Weaver began to realize that magic use had run rampant across the world, mortals recklessly practicing their arts. He believes that this reckless spellcasting is what led to the War of the Ancients ten thousand years earlier, and the mortal mages could attract the Legion to Azeroth again - and because of that, they must be stopped. As a result, Malygos has declared war on all mortal spellcasters, but most especially the Kirin Tor of Dalaran. Dalaran itself is being relocated to Northrend, not only to direct the war effort against the Lich King but also against Malygos' crusade
Not only the dont ally with Alliance and other dragons, they will be fighting against factions that try to defeat Lich King, making them enemies of his enemies.


2. The neubians have made some tedious alliances with the alliance
Again what? Which nerubians do you mean? Those in Kalimdor that are minions of C'thun and try to devour all life they can find, including Horde and Alliance? Or the undead Nerubians which are slaves of Lich King? Or the surving Nerubians in Northend whic again quote from Wowwiki:

It was stated by Blizzard that the Nerubian capital, Azjol-Nerub would be a zone, with a raid instance featuring an Old God. At Blizzcon in the brochure given to attendees the following was mentioned:
"Yet the brooding evil of the fallen Nerubian empire and their malevolent sovereign have not forgotten Azeroth. "
This suggests that they will be hostile to players, with "their malevolent sovereign" possibly referring to the Old God.
Again no possible alliances with humans in sight. And probably yet another force that can backstab Alliance/Horde when they will try to deal with Lich King.

3. the dwarves in the area and the single human city have unitied
You mean that few hundred dwarves that are hiding in the ruins of Azjol-Nerub from any Scourge unit that comes nearby? Oh they will surely be a great help against those hundreds of thousands undead....
I am not sure, what do you mean with that "single human city". Do you mean Dalaran? If yes well:
a) Dalaran was ally with humans from the very beginning, so nothing that Lich King doesnt know, or doesnt scheme against
b) Dalaran appeared in Norhternd only recently, beign transported by mages of Kirin Tor
c) It seems that they will have some serious trouble with insane antimagic dragons... Possibily reducing their ability to fight against LK


4. The troll tribes have come together
I am sorry if ti looks like I am repeating myself, but WHAT? The troll tribes are still fiercery independant, hating other trolls, Alliance, Horde, and pretty much everything else. The only exception is a Troll tribe that Thrall rescued( that troll tribe was almost eradicated by MURLOCKS the lamest enemy in history of lame enemies) which joined with Horde (and is a base for troll players). Other tribes, including the most powerful tribes from Zul'Aman and Zul'Gurbash hate and raid Alliance and Horde cities, try to summon their evil gods and are generally tied to one place.


5. The Maugnatars things have unitied as one
Well, considering they were quite united in beginning, and the scourge still wiped (and is still wiping) the floor with them, I dont think they are really a threat.


6. The frost giants have united
Which frost giants? You mean vrykuls? Vrykuls that (again direct quote from wowwiki and vrykul article)

They are Viking themed and serve the Lich King furiously while attacking the Alliance stronghold of Valgarde. They are dark and vampiric in nature, and tie into the Titan creation myth that will unfold as events of the expansion take place. They practice a runic magic that even the most experienced wizards find unfamiliar.
Well....yes they are united but why exactly is this bad for Lich king when they are his allies and attack Alliance and Horde?:smallconfused:

7. The walrus folk are liable to alliance with the ether the hoard or the alliance
With Horde probably. Not a big thing considering that the only tactics they have against Scourge is running away, hiding and hoping that the Scourge wont decide to wipe them.


8. The alliance and the hoard have destroyed most of his armies in the main land and are on his door step
The plaugelands which is pretty much the hearth of Scourge in Eastern Kingdoms are still far from conquered. Infact it doesnt seem that Forsaken position did drastically improved, they still has to fight for survival against the Scourge in their homeland.


9. The forsakeon and the blood elves have allied with the hoard and the night elves have allied with the alliance. If he had orginizied his forces and crushed the forsakeon quickly he could have regained control of the plaugelands and pervented the blood elves from retaking their homeland. Now he has an invasion on his hands
The only possible way he could do this would be if he ignored Illidian armies marching at the Frozen Throne and let Arthas and his army remain in Eastern Kingdom. Which wouldnt be very bright idea.

,

Um, no their not their attacking him right now in the new expansion
Horde (or more to be more precise Forsaken) is invading the Lich King and Alliance at the same time, with Alliance fighting with Lich King and Horde. They dont cooperate agianst Lich King(how they would if the alliance between orcs humans and night elves would hold) in their "invasion" each faction tries to defeat him and the other faction on their own.


The forces of illidian would have been fighting the burning legion anyways and the burning legion always has more men.
Illidian was a servant of Burning Legion and he fortified in the Outland becouse he was afraid of punishment for his failure agianst Lich King. He hates (hated) Lich King so if given one more chance he would definetly join in fight against him with his naga and blood elf allies.


1. Zombies and Skeletons have rotting hands, ghouls have claws
2. Range man range. A ghoul's range with his claws is only a few feet, a simple orc with a sword can hit him three times before being in danger himself. Now all orcs are good archers and spear men and can use spear and pikes to pick them off before even being exposed to risk. now orcs can also use swords, shields, and axes to inflict greater damage, and armor can hold back claws
3. Carapace? What?
1) Zombies and skeletons have swords, axes, bows and shields in their rotting hands.
2) Yes, orc with spear, will probably has a greater range than ghould gaining a first strike, but an orc with sword or axe? Considering the agility and unnaturaly long arms of ghouls, I doubt it. Also ghouls can tear apart heavy armored footmen, grunts and knights withou difficulty so i would disagree with "armor can hold back claws"
3) Name of one of the undead armor upgrades in Warcraft III. Ghouls and other undead can grow a tough, shell-like natural armors through dark magic



A shield wall is pretty damn effective, a spear wall and arrow volly are all lacked by the undead. Undead don't wear armor, they can be hurt by anything. They don't have ranged weapons and inflict less damage upon the orcs. They might be tireless but they can be ripped apart by good tatics
The Scourge have abudance of ranged weapons. From skeleton/zombies armed with bow, through various magic projectiles (more than half of their units seem to be able flinging some kind of magic missles) to the "bee swarms of doom" and exploding corpses. The most basic undead dont wear armor, so they take more damage, but also they are extremly resistant to it. "Advanced" undead (ghouls and anything better than them) have mutations that give them tough and effective natural armor.
Also how exactly will rain of arrows be able to damage an army of zombies and skeletons?



1. They were twisted by the well's magic and the old gods, not solely by one evil
2. They aren't thralls to an evil power
3. Can the be raised?
1. And? how do you know that the unraisable centuars were twisted solely by one evil?
2. Yea sure, the Old Gods rescued them from sure doom and then just let them be, and didnt want anything in return....
Naga are one of the "agents" of the Old Gods that carry on their will in Azeroth (others beign Nerubians for example)

proof
The only proof I was able to find is that "any mortal race can be raised as undead, such as humans, orcs, trolls, ogres, elves, etc...." Every mortal race that cannot be raised or is resistant to undeath has it explicitly stated in their lore. Satyrs and Naga, while being a mortal race, doesnt have such statement, so they can be raised.


[QUOTE=EvilElitest;3875360] If they were totally corrupted then they wouldn't be able to be raised
Yes sauron's orcs have a hell of a lot more corruption going than Warcraft orcs, who at least still generally resemble what they use to be and can break free of the curse
I retract my previous statement. They are corrupted in differnet styles, so my comparsion between them was flawed.
The corruption of warcraft orcs is more like an enchantment or a curse-it fills them with demonic energies that makes them bigger, stronger and more aggresive, and also steadily mutates them into a new form, but this is more a side-effect than a purpose.
Sauron orcs were either a completly created or twisted from other race with mutation being the primal purpose of their corruption. They are more like Nerubians and Naga/Satyr than Warcraft Orcs.





The sauron's orcs were
A) once elves, and taht is a hell of a lot more corruption
B) created by the forces of evil directly, same princible
Point A) Nagas and Satyrs, are pretty much the same, and there is a lot of indirect evidence that they can be raised as undead.
Point B) Nerubians were created directly by the forces of evil, and in this case there is a direct evidence that they can be and infact are raised as undead.


You can't raise demons can you?
For entirely different reasons that has nothing to do with corruption. When the demon is killed on mortal realm he dont die, but his essence flee into Twisting Nether where he lick his wounds and consolides his powers until he is powerful enough to manifest a new body in mortal realms, or one of his masters doesnt manifest a body for him.



No, not until i see better proof. A very specific exception to the rule is still an exception to the rule.
What about you providng proof to us that Sauron orcs fall under the same exception to the rule as those centaur? Many races with various degree of corruption are not an exception, so why should Sauron orcs be one?


1. So? That means he can lose control if he is weakened (IE, attacked, hindered, harmed, his helment sundered by the WK, broken
2. And a freaking god, please
3. Ok, the direct servent to the greatest evil in the world
4. I thought it just caused and earth quake
5. And if the LK is harmed, then the stronger of his minions can and will break off to fight him
1) Just to clear things up:
Arthas was a mortal being, first human paladin, later undead death knight
Ner'zhul was a mortal being, an orc shaman and warlock of great power
Lich King trapped in the Frozen Throne was a spiritual deity, which could only affect the world outside with telephatic commands, corruption and some of the magic. Although this deity had foundation in spirit of Ner'zhul it wasnt the same being.
Lich King that was created from fusion of Arthas and Lich King is a an actual physical deity that was created from Arthas body and mind and spirit of Lich King trapped in ice. Again it is a new beign, far less vulnerable and with far greater magical power than previous incarnation of Lich King had.
You cannot apply the limits of the Lich King trapped in Frozen Throne to the Lich King that was created by Fusion of Arthas and former Lich King, they are different beigns. It is quite possible that even that whole ritual Illidian channeled wouldnt be enough to weaken the new Lich King the same way the former Lich King was weakened.
Points 2 and 3 are just mindless bragging (just like mine were :smallbiggrin: )
4) It cause an earthquake so powerful that it was tearing the whole continent apart, with a danger that it will shatter the whole Azeroth if not stopped. It was "just an earthquake" the same way a supernova is "just a ball of fire"


Isn't his power in his helmet now? Just treat that like the frozen throne
Yet another quote from WoWwiki:

Before Arthas donned the Lich King's armor, it was the spirit of the former Orc Shaman Ner'zhul who's soul was attached to the armor and then imprisoned (physically) inside the Frozen Throne. Now Arthas and Ner'zhul's spirit are one and together they are the Lich King.
The Lich Kings spirit was originaly attached to the armor, but that was when he was imprisoned in Frozen Throne. Then he merged with Arthas. Not controlled or possesed, but merged. Which means that either the power and soul of the Lich King is in Arthas body, or that The armor of Lich King actually physically merged with Arthas flesh (simmiliar to Chaos Chosen from Warhammer) creating an effective natural armor. One way or another, the helmet isnt his weak point. Either sundering it wont have any effect becouse the soul of Lich King is in Arthas body, or the helmet is a part of Arthas body, this it is impossible to sunder it.


Um, illiden is dead in outland. And what every you may think, it doesn't change the fact their are two large powerful armies in his own land that are attacking him directly
And each other. And other independent neutral forces that the Lich King left alive in Northend.


Um, yes he has, they've been picking off his forces for a while now. The've killed scores of his forces and have helped the invasion upon the LK. Hell, the burning crusade is working with the alliance now lore wise
Withou any real consequence. As I said before Plaugelands are still under the control of Scourge, no matter how Scarlet Crusade and Argent Dawn tries to fight them.
Do you mean Scarlet Crusade, with that Burning Crusade/Alliance cooperation? If no, reference/proof please, if yes than you are wrong. Scarlet Crusade is considered to be a fanatical and dangerous organization by alliance and Alliance has a several quest which objectives are killing the high lieutenant of Scarlet Crusade, and generaly sabotaging their efforts.


As for the poison, gargoyles are living i think, and the cult of the damned and the Thuzad are living
Gargoyles are animated golems, Kel'Thuzad was an undead lich from the middle of the orignal Warcraft 3 Undead Campaign, and the Cult of Dammed varies, many of its members becoming lichs or other greater undead over time.

[Matar]

Sauron's will dominates most of his minions, why do you think they fell

That has nothing to do with it. It's not a contest of wills... they just take controll.


They cannot be claimed by another. Orcs have a similar relationship with Sauron/Morgoth, he owns them, they have sold their souls to him, hell sauron often brands them with the red eye just to show off his control of them.
Look at it this way, when the ring was destroyed all of the orcs simple broke. They didn't break in the moral sense, they simple lost the will to live. They panicked, fled, attacked each other, committed suicide, lost the will to live ect.
However Sauron's human units were totally normal. They rallied, organized and fought directly against the forces of good. They still failed, and their moral broke, but they didn't simply lose the will to live, because they don't share that relationship with Sauron
Also Demons can't be raised, look at it that way

*Sigh*

Once again, it is ludicrise to use this as an example. *All we know* is that Centaurs are a thrall to a great evil. And that they can't be rasied. That's *it*. Fel Orcs can, Mur'guls can, and those are all absolutly corrupted as well.

Remember, saying that "They *became* corrupted is also silly. Orcs are corrupted elves in LOTR, as I am sure you know.

And demons are *diffrent*. Much so. They are the equicilent of Balrogs really, and we are preaty damn sure Balrogs can't be raised.


only on certain units

The majority of his forces.


WOW RPG, undead have darkvision 60 feet. Arrows as you know go a lot further than that. now the orcs use black arrows and dark vision can only see black and white, arrows move fast and are hard to see, so not only will the ghouls not know where the arrows are coming from, they can't make them out properly

Except, once more. My point was mainly that shooting there front lines is *ludicrise*. And that whole 60 darkvision? That seems more like a game-mechanic then anything else. To balance the game out, for *fun*.

Seriously dude, do you have any idea how poor it is to bring up a game mechanic? It's moronic.


However the WOW RPG is in fact cannon

The lore in it? Yes. Beyond that? The stats for dude? Ect? No, not really.


1. The LK only has like one or two thousand casters

You said for every caster, he would have 1000 archers. He has 1000-2000 casters (Acourding to you, and I disagree, but I will just roll with it).

So that's, what, 1000x1500 to get his amount of archers?

1,500,000 archers?

. . .

And you yourself said that there would be front line troops as wel, to protect the archers.

Please stop making things up, and please stop exagerating things.


1. Undead can break off from the Scourge on their own, Forsaken are doing it even now. hell hte Forsaken are liberating undead even now

They don't break off on there own, the controll slips. Diffrence. The Lich King let's go of them, they don't resist. I bring up the Four Horsemen point. Four of the holy paladins, immune to undeath... that are undead because of the Lich King. And there bodies completly serve the Lich King.

Shoot, let me add a point here. The orcs tend to run away in fear, even though they are told to attack. Going against the wishes of Sauron. Not absolute controll, is it?


2. Necromancers and evil priests can dominate undead
3. Their is a spell called control undead

And those are on Saurons side? Please.

The LOTR magic stays with the LOTR dudes, and the Warcraft Magic with the Warcraft dude. Your not going to give Sauron Polymorph, and I am not going to give the Lich King counterspelling. Keep what they have on there side, ya silly.


No he just uses powers that he already has been given, like an other necromancer or evil cleric, that isn't will power, that is using necromancy the way it is suppose to be used

Again, I bring up the quote.


When the time was right, Kil'jaeden explained the mission for which he had created the Lich King. Ner'zhul was to spread a plague of death and terror across Azeroth that would snuff out human civilization forever. All those who died from the dreaded plague would arise as the undead, and their spirits would be bound to Ner'zhul's iron will forever.


Under his iron will.


The LK doesn't corrupt people. Corrupting somebody is taking control of their mind while they are alive. What the LK does is just what a normal necromancer does, kill it, raise it, control it.

By sheer force of will he controll an army of undead. And uh, *hello*. Arthas anyone? He does corrupt people. Hell, look at his Dread Knights.

He commands an army of undead through sheer force of will. Sauron seems to rule through corruption and fear. Big diffrence.


Where in the lore does it show that dragons can't be hurt by arrows? They have a page in that site you linked me saying they can

Common sence? Mostly made of bone, a few flaps of skin. Can fly high and bombared from above.

Here's a question for Warty. How high can an arrow go before losing some momentem?


And in the cannon WOW RPG it isn't total control

Yes, yes it is. As I covered before.


what? Not they don't. The gain their abilities, not their memories. Your going to need to proof this

Spellcasting is not an ability. They learn how to cast spells. But still, it's a 50/50 chance I suppose and nothing to base an argument on, so I won't bother.

However, it should be stated that most Banshees ARE on the Lich King side.

Most banshees still remain enslaved to the Lich King's will though, and can be found throughout the Plaguelands. - Horde Players Guide.

This is lore, by the way. Though it is found in an RPG book, it is not a game play mechanic. *Please* learn the difference dude.


how does he make these guys again?

I don't think anyone knows to be honest. But it really is besides the point.


Alright, well arrows being used to kill Frost Wyrms is both mechanical, logical, and no lore says it can't be done.

It would depend on a few factors. However Warty is going to have to cover this.

First, how high can an arrow go without without losing some power? Assume we are useing a typical orc long-bow shot by a typical orc (Who has below average strength compared to a human)


Books, i don't think the movies can be used
As for the poison, gargoyles are living i think, and the cult of the damned and the Thuzad are living

I am not sure if Gargs can be poisoned, but I *think* they can be.

However, remember, we have no idea how many necromancers are undead, or alive. The longer you are a necromancer, well, you eventually become undead. So, bleh, who knows.

Still useful, and should be taken into account, I agree.


Um, why not? A swarm can consume anything. It would be more effective against living things, but it will still

They... they can eat metal and bone? And if a destroyer dies they *explode* like a bomb. So yeah, bye bye swarm.


Undead can't be re raised, taht is a big no no

Proof? And no DnD please~



As for ice shield, yeah it lasts a long time sure. But Sauron really doesn't care if he looses a million flies for one dragon

As fast as they reproduce I think a million giant flys for one dragon is a bit silly. There are quite a few of these dragons after all. And the destroyers.


Fire Drakes go for the destroyers and dragons, poison archers, fear, corruption and domination go for the gargs, cold drakes go for the Frost Wryms, giant bats, vampires, Cerbain go for the Gargs, and flies bats and crows go for everything. After the winds of course, followed by the fel beats and nazgul

The flys, crows, ect are preaty damn useless. And Frost Wyrm>Fel Beast or the other dragons. They are undead blue dragons with freezing breath. They feel no pain ether. Big advantage.

The Nazgul are a nice advantage, however. I admit. But while they are attaking in the air, the Death Knights are on the ground killing things.


Meh, Sauron only control a guard, and Durin' bane, so like 20 tops.

Hrm, well ether way. They may be strong, but a few Death knights could take out one. Heck, so could a few Lichs, ect. Not solo of course, but maybe four-five of them.


think this through for a second. A lone mage, with no warm clothing, no food left, an normal fur cloak walking forward in the snow. And he made it that far inland. he was still able to make it to the LK's base before resorting to magic

We don't know how long he has marching, and his body was numb from the cold and he was about to die. He was dressed for the cold as well, just still damn cold. He prepared for the cold of the continent, but that still was inadiquet.

It's cold enough to kill. And the cold is numbing. The entire land is iced over, meaning it is below freezing.

People die in below freezing tempiture. It's simple *logic* dude.


They were able to get inland however, without supplies, that is something

also some of them were able to live for a few more years

He destroyed the ship, but did he take the supplys off the ships? And I do recall that they set up base by the ocean, correct?


1. The valar are power, but saruon is close. he couldn't hurt them, but he was able to keep them from hurting him
2. Magic lighting does hurt them, and sauron can use magic lighting, i don't see the problem

A blast directly from Sauron? Yeah, I can agree with that. Sauron conjuring a storm, and the lighting from *that* hurting them? I just disagree. What do they even have for the Lighting to hurt? And the storm would mess with Saurons flying troops as well.


But all are VERY nasty and hard to take. With constent stream of reinforcments from modor, it can be impossible
Dul Guldor is a massive evil summer home of Sauron
Agmar i what the Northrend is based after
Moria is absurdly hard to take
the misty mountains is the largest mountain range in the world and crammed full of goblins/orc
The grey mountains are half that size and full of dragon and orcs
Mt. Gundibad is the largest orc hole in the north
Isengard you know it hard to take
Mirkwood is the world's largest forest and a great place for hit and run
The shire, gladden fields and Anor can act as supply lands and an extra thing for him to take
The north and east are huge an totall under his control
Umber was made by the numidmoirans
Numdimor i a giant island, how is he going to get their
Angband is even bigger than morder

And all those that he takes are under his controll, and he get's the troops there. And the forests, well, this is the Lich King. Im sure he would just burn it or something if it offers trouble.


um, upward slopes with arrows work well, they won't all be below them. True a lot will die, but the frost wyrms will die

Yes, they will all be below them -.-. Frost Wyrms are not dumb, they can fly up and shoot down dude.


storm first, wait for it to end, it goes away archers move it along with ariel units

And while the strom is going on, doing nothing, the Frost Wyrms take advantage.


1. Nope, i counter that. Can demon be raised? Nope? Same relationship. Eastern plaugeland centaurs? Own their soul to another, as the orcs do to sauron

Except it's not the same. at all. As I covered above.

Oh, also, dun reply to this one. We *really* need to cut out some quotes >.>. And this is basically a repeat of what is said above.


um, your point? Sauron's siege weapons can hit them from VERY far away, as well as having demonic fire powers

Very far and accurate, I got it. But they can still be destoryed and offer as a large target. You over estimate em dude.



1. Most of the undead are just dominated, not mindless. With the ring they can break free

Wind Mills do not work that way, as stated above.


3.Stronger will? How the hell? he controls undead, any nercomancer can do that. When has he won a battle of wills? When has he corrupted another being other than Arthas without killing them first (Kel' Thuzad wasn't dominated, just gave into the temptation), when has he ever gotton somebody to do something for him by will alone. Sauron had the corrupted teh greatest minds of his time, he became king of the greatest men in the history of hte world and had them sacerfice to dark god in three years, he tricked the greatest elves of his time, the LK has nothing dude

Yeah, any necromancer can controll an army of 700,000 thousand undead. They all can certainly defy demons and turn holy paladins into undead, even though they are supposed to be immune.

...Right.


then why can they still break free now?

Breaking and sliping free are two diffrent things. And we do not know how the Forsaken help undead escape his grasp (And I would love a quote as to where they do this. I did not know they did.).

But you don't know ether, so you really can't use it.


Then how did a blinking army get up their? How are their already plenty of races living up their

...There... arnts? Most of the lan is under Lich King controll. And the army? They are not marching through the place, they have a camp. Big diffrence.


Because they had special circumstances, at least two of them are.

Explain.


which is funny because WG just showed you why that isn't true

No... he said that breaking the tendons and joins would make an undead useless. And it wouldn't. The proof? Skelliton and Ghouls. No tendsons on those limbs.


Also, I have tried to cut down on the quests to reduce size and make the posts easier to handle, if I missed a topic or something of yours that is a big deal or something, and not already covered with a previous quote, please just tell me. Most of our stuff is just mindless repeating >.>.

[Rutee]

The rules, Matar. Though I admire your patience.

[Matar]

The rules, Matar. Though I admire your patience.

The Loli's grant me power.

[warty goblin]

I never said that a spear thrust would render a skeleton impotent by cutting its tendons, it simply doesn't have any. It can however still shatter and seperate joints. Joints are still mechanical things in the sense of fitting together and having surfaces move over each other, and three inches of violently moving steel powered by a relatively strong creature will tend to cause the joint to no longer function. A spear through the ribcage for example has a fair chance of splitting a skeleton in half by going between the vertibrae and severing the top from the bottom. The same spear to the shoulder could catch the scapula and rip the entire arm off, or knock the skeleton down which, given its lack of mass and high center of gravity, won't be that hard to do. Then it will simply be trampled by the mob of undead coming up from behind. A spearthrust to the pelvis could likely simply knock the entire creature apart. Since skeletons are mindless they won't know to cover their vulnerable regions or how to block particulary well, and blocking a spear is damn hard.

A similar argument goes for arrows, a 75 lb bow fires standard arrows at 300 feet per second, and can be fitted with blunts or broadheads to transmit as much energy to the target as possible. Such a weapon has pretty good chance of shattering a bone IMHO, particularly the dry and aged bones of skeletons and ghouls.

As for reach, do ghouls have six foot long arms? The pictures on WoWWiki inidicate no. Because that's my reach with a sword and fully extended arm. Now granted I am probably taller than most orcs, but orcs are described as having very long arms, so I don't think its a particularly bad comparison. Anything under six feet and they'll be fighting a longer reach weapon with greater tip velocity and likely faster recovery time as well. The sword also has the advantage that you can block with it without running a significant risk of getting chopped up, which is very difficult to do with claws attached to your arms.

As for defeating footmen, having looked at their armor, I can officially say that ripping them apart shouldn't be that hard, it simultaniously provides crappy protection while inhibiting movement.

[Rowanomicon]

This thread disgusts me and I find most of it too silly or ignorant (I don't mean this as an insult I'm simply saying that people aren't doing their research before posting ex. assume that one can simply walk into Mordor) to respond to, but there's one pint that is far to silly to not respond to.
That is the point of numbers.

I hereby put forth the idea that Saruman's forces, being described as "tens of thousands" were quite obviously at least a... bazzillion? and that, since almost half were Uruks that means there were approximately half a bazzillion Uruks created and equipped in half a year. Since Sauron can do everything Saruman can do better the Sauron can create, well I donno what 1/356 of a bazzillion is, in fact I doubt very much that a bazzillion is a real number, a lot of Uruks, fully equiped, by the day.

In case you missed the sarcasm, this is what I mean: assuming a stated number range to be a different stated number range is... know what? It's just wrong. I don't even need to tell you why because it's such a simple thing. As someone, I think EE (I just skimmed this madness), said, it's like saying that you have hundereds of men when you have 8000.

If LK had millions of troops Blizzard would have said so. I don't case what words you think "sound more menacing" it's a simple fact "hundereds of thousands" means at least 200,000, but less than a million.

Granted larger numbers are made up of smaller number (holy crap, really?!), but it would be stupid to say "Sauron has dozens of orcs at his command" when we know that the number can be measured in 10s, if not 100s, of thousands.

Now I know these points will be countered with the ever popular "wut?" or "I disagree" or perhaps even a rare, but special, appearance from "all Sauron supports are stupid, relentless, unreasonable, mean members of a cult" or "Middle Earth is a setting where the most powerful god is actually only slightly more powerful than a gnat," but I don't care.

[Matar]

A similar argument goes for arrows, a 75 lb bow fires standard arrows at 300 feet per second, and can be fitted with blunts or broadheads to transmit as much energy to the target as possible. Such a weapon has pretty good chance of shattering a bone IMHO, particularly the dry and aged bones of skeletons and ghouls.

Wait, im confused here. Now, I can now honestly agree that the Archers can take down *some* of the Frost Wyrms, sure. Not all, but arrows can hurt them. They would sorta have to go with blunt tips going by what you said, in order to shatter bone and stuff (Blunts<slashing when fighting undead). This would remove the use of poison, but still.

But, I don't get thise. EE kept claiming all orcs were Archers... How? How is it possible to carry a a sheild, armor, a sword (There swords are large, and made of iron, right? I admit I should not go by the movies, but I don't see why the movies woul change what the swords look like) and a 75 LB bow with arrows?

That... that would be insane for a human, much less an orc witch is weaker then a human.

Here's all the information about undead you could need.

Ghouls (http://www.wowwiki.com/Ghoul)

They seem to lack reach, but have large numbers. They can also heal quite rapidly acourding to the information. Also. I learned something new. Zombies become Ghouls after a time.

Also, Wart, you seem to be an intelligent person. You, of all people, must see the flaw in saying the orcs can't be raised right?


Now I know these points will be countered with the ever popular "wut?" or "I disagree" or perhaps even a rare, but special, appearance from "all Sauron supports are stupid, relentless, unreasonable, mean members of a cult" or "Middle Earth is a setting where the most powerful god is actually only slightly more powerful than a gnat," but I don't care.

Wut?

[Rowanomicon]

Haha, "wut?" that made me smile, thanks.
Are you agreeing that counting "hundereds of thousands" as "millions" is rediculous?

I, personally, have no opinion either way as to the raisability of orcs because I know absolutely nothing about WC centaurs and that whole deal. I do know that Sauron has the ability to bind souls (though this may only be after the person's "death") so I see no reason for him to not bind his minion's souls (at least after he realizes that his opponent is raising them). Also Sauron has the ability to raise dead aswell (see the Dead Marshes and Barrow Wights) so assuming that Lk gets all the casulaties to his side seems kind of biased and rediculous to me.
Also corpes can be made unusable for undead if they are somewhere that Sauron thinks he might not get to them first. At best I'd say LK gets 1/4 of the orcish casualties to his side (if orcs can even be raised by anyone but Sauron, the binder of their souls) while Sauron would get closer to half.
Wow, that kind of works against LK now doesn't it? My logic is that half of the casualties are more acessable to either side and Sauron's forces manage to suitibly mutilate half of the casualties that are mroe acessable to LK.

Not all orcs are always archers, but most orcs will have the cpability if need be. Bows can be kept in the strongholds. I will grant that orcs cannot carry around infinite equipment, but they are actually not weaker than humans.

I wont claim that they are stronger (because I'm not about to cite a source), but they are not weaker (unless you can cite a source, please give a quote or something with points like that).
A shield, sword, and spear so no stretch (the Romans did it). You simply drop your spear if you have to use your sword. Also I think shield and spear could be replaced by a bow. Perhaps the shield could even stay (and simply be put down when the bow is drawn.

Also Uruks (what Sauron will be creating more of) are stronger than humans (do I have to cite a source on this or is it well enough accepted?) so can carry more than normal orcs if need be.

Hmm, Sauron has gunpowder, too bad he doesn't have guns, only bombs.

[warty goblin]

A 75 lb bow means it has a draw weight of 75 lbs, meaning that it takes 75 pounds of force to draw the string back, not that the bow actually weighs that much. Made out of wood such a bow probably wouldn't weigh much in excess of three or four pounds I'd guess, while a composite bow could be lighter still.

I'd guess that the orc's entire kit probably wouldn't weigh any more than 75lbs actually. My steel chainmail shirt has long sleeves and goes down just about to my knees, so would be way overkill on an orc and weighs in at ~23lbs. That much weight should get an orc armor, clothing and padding no problem. Another 2 lbs for sword, 5 or 10 for shield, depending on size, 3 for bow or spear depending on loadout and a bit more for extras.

edit: on the raising of orcs thing I'm not sure I'm really qualified to judge, but I'll give it my best go.

On the one hand orcs are deeply evil creatures and pretty bound to Sauron. On the other hand you have provided what seem, in my small knowledge of Warcraft anyway, sound counterexamples. Hence I conclude the following:

1) Raising orcs is probably going to be more difficult, since they are tied very strongly to an evil entity who probably doesn't want them to be raised.
2) Hence its probably not useful in a tactical "oh man we just ran out of soldiers for this big battle we're fighting" kind of way, but might be usable after a fight has been won.
3) The real question I have with the usability of raising the dead is that WoWWiki seems to be pretty clear that sufficiently mangled/burned/decapitated bodies can't be raised, and being torn apart by ghouls would in my estimation tend to count as 'pretty mangled'. Sure they'll be the lucky corpse that just had its throat ripped out or something, but from the descriptions of ghoul combat I've seen, it seems like their modus operandi tends towards the ripping and the rending.

[Matar]

Are you agreeing that counting "hundereds of thousands" as "millions" is rediculous?

Well, yeah. I mean, I personally think they have more then the troops we agreed on, but we can't prove it. For this kinda debate we need to work with what the dudes have, not *what* they could have.

That's why I never brought up counterspelling or anything from LOTR on the Warcraft side. I brought up the ring, but that was mostly to counter something EE said.


Also corpes can be made unusable for undead if they are somewhere that Sauron thinks he might not get to them first. At best I'd say LK gets 1/4 of the orcish casualties to his side (if orcs can even be raised by anyone but Sauron, the binder of their souls) while Sauron would get closer to half.
Wow, that kind of works against LK now doesn't it? My logic is that half of the casualties are more acessable to either side and Sauron's forces manage to suitibly mutilate half of the casualties that are mroe acessable to LK.

I can somewhat agree with that. But don't forget that the parts *can* be used as Abominations. I really don't see why not. And some can be used to feed the Ghouls, and as such heal them.

How about this. Assume 100% of Saurons troops as killed in a fight.

40% are raised.
30% are unable to be raised from mutilation. But can still be used in Abominations.
15% can be eaten, but there parts are useless for Abominations.
15% are burned and utterly worthless.

If you want, I can drop the amount raisable to 30% and increase the ones that are burned and unusable (He can raise skellis, but lets say the bones were damanged and burned in combate. Makes sence when you have Ghouls ripping at them and such)



I wont claim that they are stronger (because I'm not about to cite a source), but they are not weaker (unless you can cite a source, please give a quote or something with points like that).

So, shall we keep there strength as that of a normal human? Something like, uh, a middle-aged man? It's a *really* rough example, but still. Just for a basic idea.


A shield, sword, and spear so no stretch (the Romans did it). You simply drop your spear if you have to use your sword. Also I think shield and spear could be replaced by a bow. Perhaps the shield could even stay (and simply be put down when the bow is drawn.

My point was more that having a sheild, a sword, armor, and a 75 LB was a bit much. A sword, spear, and sheild I can agree with mind you.


Also Uruks (what Sauron will be creating more of) are stronger than humans (do I have to cite a source on this or is it well enough accepted?) so can carry more than normal orcs if need be.

I agree with this.


Hmm, Sauron has gunpowder, too bad he doesn't have guns, only bombs.

How does that *work* anyways? Shouldn't they have guns by now?

Anyways, while sneaking the Plaugue into Mordor is out, I am sure there are other castles and stuff to put it in and iffect. And remember, orcs have been described as "Always hungry" and will eat just about anything. (Men, hourses, ect)


A 75 lb bow means it has a draw weight of 75 lbs, meaning that it takes 75 pounds of force to draw the string back, not that the bow actually weighs that much. Made out of wood such a bow probably wouldn't weigh much in excess of three or four pounds I'd guess, while a composite bow could be lighter still.

Oh, okay. I was like "o.O" for a moment there when you said a 75 pound bow.

[Mr. Scaly]

Not going to bother posting to every single thing said...just a few thoughts to add beyond a growing resignation about this thread.

1) I looked it up, and trebuchets only have a range of about half a mile (over 750 metres).

2) No way in hell that flies, no matter how many of them, are going to kill a forking dragon...maybe bats would, given enough of them, but flies...?

3) No matter how resistant someone is or how used to the cold they are, it will still kill them. Russians don't exactly enjoy fighting wars in mid-winter, even if they're better prepared for it than the average Nazi.

4) KG, good point about the shattering of joints. Still, the undead could conceivably drag itself along. Not too useful I admit, but the unwary orc wouldn't be too happy to dodge a ghoul then get its foot hacked off. :smallwink:

5) Well...no matter how many orcs Sauron can create, Mordor can only afford to feed so many of them. So he can create as many as he likes, they'll starve when they starve.

6) How does creating undead in WoW work and why would the creature giving itself over to an unspeakably evil creature keep its bones from being ripped from the corpse and turned into a soldier?

[Selrahc]

Are you agreeing that counting "hundereds of thousands" as "millions" is rediculous?

If you're reffering to what I said there, then that isn't what I said.

All I said was that the statement is vague, and could refer to armies well in excess of a million.

In fact even under your strict linguistic code, armies of 1.9 million would still be hundreds of thousands, with no other decent words to describe them.

I then dispensed with the incredibly vague "hundreds of thousands"(Any number from 200 thousand to 1.9 million! At least!) to give some in setting evaluation of total army size for the Lich King. And concluded that he could very easily have an army with over a million members.

For instance... there were 2 and a half million high elves living, then the scourge wiped out 90% of them http://www.wowwiki.com/High_elf 24,800 living representing ten percent of High Elves who survived the scourge, representing 10% of the High Elves prior to the scourge). Thats 2.2 million fresh corpses right there. Then they have the graveyards to ransack for skeletons. And the spirits of the dead to turn into banshees. The bones of the animals to turn into monstrous flesh beasts. Do that with the Orc tribes. Do that with the human nations. Do that with the factions of Northrend. Tens of millions of corpses to work with, most of which will be easily available to your necromancers. Ressurecting them is quite an easy process, that can even be done in the heat of battle. Slaughtering civilians works great, because no matter how weak they are in life, when they become undead, they will be capable soldiers, so a populations number of potential warriors suddenly includes women and children. In the time between the end of Warcraft III:Frozen Throne and the current period, the numbers of the scourge has increased. Even factoring in casualties and unusable corpses it would be ridiculous for the Lich King to have less than a million troops.

[EvilElitest]

Well, this thread returned to life quite nicely. Many of the former defenders of Sauron/LK are back, few new ones appeared, and since its ressurection it increased by the pace of around one page/a day.

And it is already to big. damnit



Sigh
Then why did you based your previous argument on one of the most lorebreaking "game elements" in the whole Warcraft Universe- the WoW players?
WoW players daily kill more than half population of "non-friendly" races on Azeroth each day, many of them own weapon or mount that is supposed to be unique in Warcraft lore. You cannot use player influence into argumentation without dragging the gameplay mechanics that are used to clean the mess caused by the player influence with it.
Which brings me to:
and you can't use the fact that undead respawn as your argument. If you can do that, then i can use the cheap mechanical wow tricks



No......Just no.
Example: I was participating in several alliance raids that invaded and pillaged Orgrimmar and killed Thrall and all his lieutnant. Also I was few time trying to defend Stormwind, Ironforge etc... from Horde raids and was, unfortunetly, quite often unsuccesfull.
So by your logic the Orgimmar, Stormwind, ironforge, etc... are destroyed, most of Warcraft heroes defeated or death, and without them, the Burning Legion has probably already conquered Azeroth. And yet I dont seem to find any piece of evidence in warcraft lore that something of that magnitude really happened....
Except the places i mentioned are designed as places to wipe out, their leaders are noted as killable, and lore wise they are suppose to be raided, wiped out with their leaders killed. The capitals are not


Well to be honest that Illidans army attacked after certain event that almost destryed the whole continent and presumably destryoed and disorganised the whole defense of Norhternd, left Lich King severaly weakened, his most powerful general Arthas weakened and left with majorit of Scourge army on Eastern Kingdoms, fighting with Forsaken and Dreadlords (and Alliance, and Blood elves and Naga, and Night Elves and........). And still the Arthas was able to travel to the Frozen Throne faster that Illidian and his army, than organise ragtagged remains of the Scourge he met into real fighting force and defeated Illidians army which consisted of majority of Blood Elf and Naga armed troops. Not counting defeating Kael'thas, Lady Vash and Illidian themselves.

Remember what he was up against? Illidan had a rag tag band of Blood eleves, a force of naga, and a super spell and they almost won


What? Direct quote from Wowwiki concerning status of blue dragons in Wrath of the Lich king:
In wrath of the LK? No, but i do have lands of mystery that says that they are allied with the alliance and other dragons

Not only the dont ally with Alliance and other dragons, they will be fighting against factions that try to defeat Lich King, making them enemies of his enemies.
Funny, because in lands of mysteries it says they are at least allied with the dragons and have good relations with the alliance


Again what? Which nerubians do you mean? Those in Kalimdor that are minions of C'thun and try to devour all life they can find, including Horde and Alliance? Or the undead Nerubians which are slaves of Lich King? Or the surving Nerubians in Northend whic again quote from Wowwiki:

Lands of mystries, they have made some tendius attempts of an alliance with the alliance, Mr. Bronze beard , not so much and alliance as a "I'll kill my enemy and you will kill my enemy" but still




You mean that few hundred dwarves that are hiding in the ruins of Azjol-Nerub from any Scourge unit that comes nearby? Oh they will surely be a great help against those hundreds of thousands undead....
I am not sure, what do you mean with that "single human city". Do you mean Dalaran? If yes well:

Well considering the fact that they have been for a few years and the LK still hasn't killed them
And i am referring to the single coast city at the bottom of northrend Valgard (5,000 guys living their) , not Dalaniar
Hell, their are whole regions that the scourge hasn't even touched, with furblogs, tauren, and Blue/Green dragons. Hell, ice crown only has 250,000 guys, give or take


I am sorry if ti looks like I am repeating myself, but WHAT? The troll tribes are still fiercery independant, hating other trolls, Alliance, Horde, and pretty much everything else.
I never said they came to work with the hoard, however the multiple ice trolls living up their have come under a union.


Well, considering they were quite united in beginning, and the scourge still wiped (and is still wiping) the floor with them, I dont think they are really a threat.
My source says they fought each other until recently, now they have unified under one leader


Which frost giants? You mean vrykuls? Vrykuls that (again direct quote from wowwiki and vrykul article)
Sorry, storm giants, live in the storm peaks, along with crystallin golems, wendigos and magnataurs
as for vrykuls, they are living. Useful when fear, corruption, domination, and morgul blades show up



With Horde probably. Not a big thing considering that the only tactics they have against Scourge is running away, hiding and hoping that the Scourge wont decide to wipe them.

The land that they live in is untouched by the scourge. He could have wiped them out and no body would be the wiser, but instead he just left htem their. Smart move that.


The plaugelands which is pretty much the hearth of Scourge in Eastern Kingdoms are still far from conquered. Infact it doesnt seem that Forsaken position did drastically improved, they still has to fight for survival against the Scourge in their homeland.
Then how are the able to launch and attack on northrend?



The only possible way he could do this would be if he ignored Illidian armies marching at the Frozen Throne and let Arthas and his army remain in Eastern Kingdom. Which wouldnt be very bright idea.

After Arthas and the Lich King combined he could have attacked the forsakeon in a surge, but instead he let them reorginize


Horde (or more to be more precise Forsaken) is invading the Lich King and Alliance at the same time, with Alliance fighting with Lich King and Horde. They dont cooperate agianst Lich King(how they would if the alliance between orcs humans and night elves would hold) in their "invasion" each faction tries to defeat him and the other faction on their own.

But the fighting is taking place on his on his terriorty, with people living in his land fighting him as well. That is risky, that is damaging, and thati s not smart from a tatical sense


Illidian was a servant of Burning Legion and he fortified in the Outland becouse he was afraid of punishment for his failure agianst Lich King. He hates (hated) Lich King so if given one more chance he would definetly join in fight against him with his naga and blood elf allies.

That isn't a counter, as i said the Burning legion would ether dispose of him, or he would just still hang out their

Hell the LK doesn't even know anything about illiden


1) Zombies and skeletons have swords, axes, bows and shields in their rotting hands.
2) Yes, orc with spear, will probably has a greater range than ghould gaining a first strike, but an orc with sword or axe? Considering the agility and unnaturaly long arms of ghouls, I doubt it. Also ghouls can tear apart heavy armored footmen, grunts and knights withou difficulty so i would disagree with "armor can hold back claws"
3) Name of one of the undead armor upgrades in Warcraft III. Ghouls and other undead can grow a tough, shell-like natural armors through dark magic

1. Crappy, rusted, swords shields and axes and they can't use them in a uniform fashion. See romans. Also, i don't think they can use bosws
2. Unnaturally long? Their normal length, just with nasty claws. A sword adds a good three feet to your range dude
3. Alright, so the ghoul makes a good target for arrows


The Scourge have abudance of ranged weapons. From skeleton/zombies armed with bow, through various magic projectiles (more than half of their units seem to be able flinging some kind of magic missles) to the "bee swarms of doom" and exploding corpses.
Source source source, i haven't seen any undead using bows, name those specific magics (most of them has limited range) and what they do


The most basic undead dont wear armor, so they take more damage, but also they are extremly resistant to it. "Advanced" undead (ghouls and anything better than them) have mutations that give them tough and effective natural armor.
So? The orcs range can bring them down by the thosuands before the even get to them


Also how exactly will rain of arrows be able to damage an army of zombies and skeletons?

The same way it works in the game?


1. And? how do you know that the unraisable centuars were twisted solely by one evil?
2. Yea sure, the Old Gods rescued them from sure doom and then just let them be, and didnt want anything in return....
Naga are one of the "agents" of the Old Gods that carry on their will in Azeroth (others beign Nerubians for example)
1. Um, the quote
2. So? They are just mutated, they haven't sold their soul.



The only proof I was able to find is that "any mortal race can be raised as undead, such as humans, orcs, trolls, ogres, elves, etc...." Every mortal race that cannot be raised or is resistant to undeath has it explicitly stated in their lore. Satyrs and Naga, while being a mortal race, doesnt have such statement, so they can be raised.

1. Naga and Satyrs can be raised? Show me
2. You still haven't provided any proof, just your own statments,
3. Lore vs. mechanics remember?


I retract my previous statement. They are corrupted in differnet styles, so my comparsion between them was flawed.
thank you


The corruption of warcraft orcs is more like an enchantment or a curse-it fills them with demonic energies that makes them bigger, stronger and more aggresive, and also steadily mutates them into a new form, but this is more a side-effect than a purpose.
Pretty much year


Sauron orcs were either a completly created or twisted from other race with mutation being the primal purpose of their corruption. They are more like Nerubians and Naga/Satyr than Warcraft Orcs.

Not nerubians or Naga so much as Demons and Satrys



Point A) Nagas and Satyrs, are pretty much the same, and there is a lot of indirect evidence that they can be raised as undead.
Point B) Nerubians were created directly by the forces of evil, and in this case there is a direct evidence that they can be and infact are raised as undead.

1. Satrys you might have a point (Satrys can't be undead i think) but naga is something difference
2. What indirect evidence
3. Um, nerubians are just an evil race


For entirely different reasons that has nothing to do with corruption. When the demon is killed on mortal realm he dont die, but his essence flee into Twisting Nether where he lick his wounds and consolides his powers until he is powerful enough to manifest a new body in mortal realms, or one of his masters doesnt manifest a body for him.

Prove this theory damn it, people keep saying this and i have yet to seen any evidence. For gods sake, then the entire legion wouldn't have any real losses

Also Eradier are corrupted Dranei, Dreadlord are a corrupted version of some other race, ect. Same relationship see


What about you providng proof to us that Sauron orcs fall under the same exception to the rule as those centaur? Many races with various degree of corruption are not an exception, so why should Sauron orcs be one?


Lets compare eradar with Orcs


Eradar- They were once Dranei when they were taken by the burning legion and twisted and corrupted into an evil race that was a twisted fel mockery of their old self
2. Orcs were once elves, exactly the same from their




1) Just to clear things up:
Arthas was a mortal being, first human paladin, later undead death knight
Ner'zhul was a mortal being, an orc shaman and warlock of great power
Lich King trapped in the Frozen Throne was a spiritual deity, which could only affect the world outside with telephatic commands, corruption and some of the magic. Although this deity had foundation in spirit of Ner'zhul it wasnt the same being.
BS, Ner'zhul was not a deity, nor was what he turned into, total BS



Points 2 and 3 are just mindless bragging (just like mine were :smallbiggrin: )
The LK can't even hurt the WK, what is he giong to do


4) It cause an earthquake so powerful that it was tearing the whole continent apart, with a danger that it will shatter the whole Azeroth if not stopped. It was "just an earthquake" the same way a supernova is "just a ball of fire"

source

Yet another quote from WoWwiki:

The Lich Kings spirit was originaly attached to the armor, but that was when he was imprisoned in Frozen Throne. Then he merged with Arthas. Not controlled or possesed, but merged. Which means that either the power and soul of the Lich King is in Arthas body, or that The armor of Lich King actually physically merged with Arthas flesh (simmiliar to Chaos Chosen from Warhammer) creating an effective natural armor. One way or another, the helmet isnt his weak point. Either sundering it wont have any effect becouse the soul of Lich King is in Arthas body, or the helmet is a part of Arthas body, this it is impossible to sunder it.


you hurt the throne, his control is weakened right? Well then hurt the body, it is the new version eh? Same effect


And each other. And other independent neutral forces that the Lich King left alive in Northend.
Why did he do that by the way? They all hate him, and are building up their strength to resist him


Withou any real consequence. As I said before Plaugelands are still under the control of Scourge, no matter how Scarlet Crusade and Argent Dawn tries to fight them.
But weakened, their invasion failed, most of their bases have be raidded


Do you mean Scarlet Crusade, with that Burning Crusade/Alliance cooperation? If no, reference/proof please, if yes than you are wrong. Scarlet Crusade is considered to be a fanatical and dangerous organization by alliance and Alliance has a several quest which objectives are killing the high lieutenant of Scarlet Crusade, and generaly sabotaging their efforts.

in your face

Some Crusaders who have begun sensing the corruption within the Crusade have left the ranks of the order to found the Argent Dawn. These warriors are generally regarded as traitors by the Scarlet Crusade, especially since the Argent Dawn also counts Forsaken amongst its ranks - but Kel'Thuzad's recent assault on Azeroth has forced the two organizations into a reluctant alliance with each other. Both sides have been able to shelve their mutual dislike in order to fight back the new horrors of the Scourge in Naxxramas, but tensions are high and there is only a superficial allegiance between them.
out of interest

Currently, the Argent Dawn and the Scarlet Crusade have formed a somewhat loose alliance in order to focus their combined strength against Kel'Thuzad's forces in the Plaguelands.


Despite its excesses, the Crusade is a powerful force in the eastern kingdoms, having already "destroyed several undead encampments in Lordaeron"WoWRPG 372 and defeated a number of dangerous Liches as well as the Dreadlord Beltheris.[citation needed] They are expected to continue battling until either the Scourge are driven from Lordaeron or the Crusade itself is destroyed.



Gargoyles are animated golems, Kel'Thuzad was an undead lich from the middle of the orignal Warcraft 3 Undead Campaign, and the Cult of Dammed varies, many of its members becoming lichs or other greater undead over time.
Manual of monsters, they are living

The Thuzad is a group of living necromancers who serve Kel'Thuzad
from
EE

[Lizard]

I never said that a spear thrust would render a skeleton impotent by cutting its tendons, it simply doesn't have any. It can however still shatter and seperate joints. Joints are still mechanical things in the sense of fitting together and having surfaces move over each other, and three inches of violently moving steel powered by a relatively strong creature will tend to cause the joint to no longer function. A spear through the ribcage for example has a fair chance of splitting a skeleton in half by going between the vertibrae and severing the top from the bottom. The same spear to the shoulder could catch the scapula and rip the entire arm off, or knock the skeleton down which, given its lack of mass and high center of gravity, won't be that hard to do. Then it will simply be trampled by the mob of undead coming up from behind. A spearthrust to the pelvis could likely simply knock the entire creature apart. Since skeletons are mindless they won't know to cover their vulnerable regions or how to block particulary well, and blocking a spear is damn hard.
I agree. To be honest I never fully understood the point of skeletons being the signature unit of undead army. I mean unless you go into ridiculous cheese such as "the dark powers that raised them made their bones hard as steel"( and I am NOT going into that) any blow made with heavy weapon and higher-than-average power will heavily damage them. Now zombies and ghouls on other hand....


A similar argument goes for arrows, a 75 lb bow fires standard arrows at 300 feet per second, and can be fitted with blunts or broadheads to transmit as much energy to the target as possible. Such a weapon has pretty good chance of shattering a bone IMHO, particularly the dry and aged bones of skeletons and ghouls.
Again I have to agree with you, but still even under heavy and concentrated fire they will take far lesser casulties than most of the mortal armies. Hower I still cannot really see how can arrow-fire damage zombies which can be pretty much turned into moving arrow-cushion without noting. And I fear that ghouls have that "unnatural hardines and mutations that makes their bones and flesh to natural armor" thing going on.


As for reach, do ghouls have six foot long arms? The pictures on WoWWiki inidicate no. Because that's my reach with a sword and fully extended arm. Now granted I am probably taller than most orcs, but orcs are described as having very long arms, so I don't think its a particularly bad comparison. Anything under six feet and they'll be fighting a longer reach weapon with greater tip velocity and likely faster recovery time as well. The sword also has the advantage that you can block with it without running a significant risk of getting chopped up, which is very difficult to do with claws attached to your arms.
Well they are one of the fastest and most agile unit in the whole warcraft and have unnatural strenght so I guess they have enough abilities to compensate for worse reach. But again (again:smalleek: ) I have to agree.


As for defeating footmen, having looked at their armor, I can officially say that ripping them apart shouldn't be that hard, it simultaniously provides crappy protection while inhibiting movement.
Well that is still a steel armor they can pierce, no matter how badly-designed it may be. They also seem to be capable to rip apart Steam Tanks and Earth/Iron Golems and Elementals but that is probably game mechanics...



I, personally, have no opinion either way as to the raisability of orcs because I know absolutely nothing about WC centaurs and that whole deal. I do know that Sauron has the ability to bind souls (though this may only be after the person's "death") so I see no reason for him to not bind his minion's souls (at least after he realizes that his opponent is raising them). Also Sauron has the ability to raise dead aswell (see the Dead Marshes and Barrow Wights) so assuming that Lk gets all the casulaties to his side seems kind of biased and rediculous to me.

The problem with raising LK troops is, that with exception of Cult of Dammed (and I am not sure to what point they are living either) LK has no living troops to raise. Also I am far weaker in Lotr lore than in Warcraft one, but has Sauron powers/time/resources to bind enough souls to make his armies effectively unraisable?


3) The real question I have with the usability of raising the dead is that WoWWiki seems to be pretty clear that sufficiently mangled/burned/decapitated bodies can't be raised, and being torn apart by ghouls would in my estimation tend to count as 'pretty mangled'. Sure they'll be the lucky corpse that just had its throat ripped out or something, but from the descriptions of ghoul combat I've seen, it seems like their modus operandi tends towards the ripping and the rending.
Partially agree with it, but (depending on what amount of controls over his minions are you willing to give to the Lich King) He may force his troops to keep enemy corpses intact.
Also for orcs: destryoing corpses of the fallen while fighting or retreating would be quite complicated and a very bad idea. It would be easy doable to do after a winned battle, but by then, it probably wouldnt matter


5) Well...no matter how many orcs Sauron can create, Mordor can only afford to feed so many of them. So he can create as many as he likes, they'll starve when they starve.
I think this is an excellent point. Although Sauron may be able to manufacture gigantic armies of orcs in time, they are a limit to how many of them he can keep, even when orcs are happily willing to eat everything that is even theoreticaly edible.

About the whole number thing: The only two things we know that his powers count into hundreds of thousands and that he has enough resources to have army of this scope. Everything else is purely subjective, and it is only natural that pro-Sauron people want to be this number to be as low as and pro-LK people as big as possible. In my opinion we should either completly drop this argument or agree on specifi number or situation (such as Lich King having more troops but having no other means to replinish them than to raise Sauron defeated armies etc...)


For instance... there were 2 and a half million high elves living, then the scourge wiped out 90% of them http://www.wowwiki.com/High_elf 24,800 living representing ten percent of High Elves who survived the scourge, representing 10% of the High Elves prior to the scourge). Thats 2.2 million fresh corpses right there. Then they have the graveyards to ransack for skeletons. And the spirits of the dead to turn into banshees. The bones of the animals to turn into monstrous flesh beasts. Do that with the Orc tribes. Do that with the human nations. Do that with the factions of Northrend. Tens of millions of corpses to work with, most of which will be easily available to your necromancers. Ressurecting them is quite an easy process, that can even be done in the heat of battle. Slaughtering civilians works great, because no matter how weak they are in life, when they become undead, they will be capable soldiers, so a populations number of potential warriors suddenly includes women and children. In the time between the end of Warcraft III:Frozen Throne and the current period, the numbers of the scourge has increased. Even factoring in casualties and unusable corpses it would be ridiculous for the Lich King to have less than a million troops.

I agree that he has potentional resources for probably millions of troops. However the question is if he has time or manpower to effectively raise all of them. After all no matter how powerful necromancer you are it probably will take a lot of time and effort to raise thousands upon thousands of corpses in various degree of damage and decay. Even with cooperation of other necromancers... And even if he has such capacibilites he may simply decide to keep some (hundred thousands) corpses unraised and stored, if he would need to pull an army or two out of his ass, when situation turns dire.

Edit: EE you posted while I was typing this post so to avoid draging this post into unnecessery lenght or double posting I will reply later.

[Matar]

1. Crappy, rusted, swords shields and axes and they can't use them in a uniform fashion. See romans. Also, i don't think they can use bosws
2. Unnaturally long? Their normal length, just with nasty claws. A sword adds a good three feet to your range dude
3. Alright, so the ghoul makes a good target for arrows


there are Crypt feinds, and Skelliton Archers for range. And Ghoul makes a good target for arrows *how*? Contantly moving, and rapid healing. And they tend to swarm the front troops and such making arrows useless.


So? The orcs range can bring them down by the thosuands before the even get to them

Assumptions. Poor and horrible assumptions with no proof. *Stop it*.


BS, Ner'zhul was not a deity, nor was what he turned into, total BS

He is. Warcraft gods follow diffrent rules. Wether or not they are immortal, and if they have worshippers. Lich King has both.


The LK can't even hurt the WK, what is he giong to do

Prove it. And besides, if anyone, the Lich King would be the most capable. His sword can steal souls of those who he kills, can kill gods, and is one of the most powerful artifacts in the game.

And if you mean the prophesy? Didn't it say no man can kill him? Lich King is a god, Undead, and his sword is like... a gods-blade that can devour the souls of who it kills.


The Thuzad is a group of living necromancers who serve Kel'Thuzad

Still under the controll of the Lich King.

[Rayzin]

And Ghoul makes a good target for arrows *how*? Contantly moving, and rapid healing. And they tend to swarm the front troops and such making arrows useless.
Charging towards a archer isnt that smart because they could just shoot you point blank. Pull back as far as you can and let go of the arrow before its gonna hit you.


Prove it. And besides, if anyone, the Lich King would be the most capable. His sword can steal souls of those who he kills, can kill gods, and is one of the most powerful artifacts in the game.

And if you mean the prophesy? Didn't it say no man can kill him? Lich King is a god, Undead, and his sword is like... a gods-blade that can devour the souls of who it kills.
Any sword that strikes the WK instantly snaps. Theres some debate about it in the WK vs LK thread.

But in truth Frudu will destroy the Ming, killing Sauron!!!! YOU ALL LOSE >= P

[Rutee]

Any sword that strikes the WK instantly snaps. Theres some debate about it in the WK vs LK thread.

Except Frostmourne is more powerful then the WK can ever hope to be. Just because the low magic LotR-verse's blades would all snap on him doesn't mean that every sword in myth ever is going to.

Edit: To pre-empt any questions on whether the Lich King has followers..

Grand Widow Faerlina has some with her in her fight. (http://www.wowwiki.com/Grand_Widow_Faerlina) Probably not that many, all in all, but still has followers.

[Matar]

Any sword that strikes the WK instantly snaps. Theres some debate about it in the WK vs LK thread.

But... no. Frostmourn is indestructible.

Is Frostmourn can be broken, the so can the freaking One Ring.

Also. I have the feeling EE, me, Warty, and everyone else in this topic just lost horribly.

Such an odd and unexplainable feeling...

[Rutee]

But... no. Frostmourn is indestructible.

Is Frostmourn can be broken, the so can the freaking One Ring.

Also. I have the feeling EE, me, Warty, and everyone else in this topic just lost horribly.

Such an odd and unexplainable feeling...

Oh, there's no question about it. Look at the point that's in contention, and tell me whether you see how on your own first though.