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Executor
2007-11-29, 09:27 PM
So, I believe it's been conclusively proven that Sauron would utterly own Voldemort. And then use his broken remains to fertilize Mordor. So, let's say we pit the Lord of the Rings against a more worthy foe. Arthas Ner'zhul, the Lich King. Warcraft fans will know all about him.

In terms of powers, they're polar opposites. The Lich King is all about cold and ice, Sauron is about heat and fire. The Lich King's centre of power, Icecrown Glacier, is an icy mountain of enormous size. Sauron's centre of power is Orodruin, Mt. Doom, an absolutely huge and temperamental volcano. Sauron's touch is described as hot enough to burn Gil-galad, last High King of the Elves, to death.

So if Mordor was somehow transplanted to Azeroth, and presumably neither Dark Lord would tolerate the other's presence, who would come out victorious in the battle between Northrend and Mordor? This is Sauron with the One Ring, and the Lich King with Frostmourne. Orcs vs Undead, Nazgul vs Death Knights, Trolls vs Abominations, Sauron vs The Lich King. Who wins?

warty goblin
2007-11-29, 09:53 PM
Sauron wins. From my reading of wikipedia, the Lich-King is a very powerful mortal, probably one of the most powerful mortals in the world. It took 3-6 (depending how you read it) of the most powerful mortals in Middle-Earth, plus a generous helping of seriously powerful equipment to destroy Sauron's body,and it killed the two most powerful of them. Hence a single mortal wouldn't be able to prevail in battle against Sauron.

On a larger scale, Sauron still wins since he is very very good at seducing and controlling other nations. It would not be at all hard for him to motivate most of whatever world this fight occurs in to attack Arthas. Given that the Lich-King doesn't actually control of Azeroth, it seems pretty obvious that the other powers there are at least capable of holding him off. Combine these with Sauron's military and the Lich is toast.

Finally, Arthas is a fallen and evil being. Sauron sorta has a thing going for controlling people like that.

Setra
2007-11-29, 10:47 PM
Hence a single mortal wouldn't be able to prevail in battle against Sauron.
That's an unfair comparison though.

I am almost 100% sure mortals in the Warcraft Universe are much stronger than the ones in the LotR universe.

As to the Lich King himself though.. I dunno, I'd pay to see em in one on one combat though :smallbiggrin: Though Sauron seems more powerful.

EvilElitest
2007-11-29, 10:53 PM
I really should say something about this being a bad vs. thread knock off, but hte temptation is just to great. though i must say, this is a lot more worthy of a fight. Just a few questions
1. Are third parties included who may work with ether side. Like the burning legion, the Syndicate, the Burning Legion, Iliden, ect. on the LK's side or is each side completly alone
2. It should be a totally neurtal setting, Mordor and all of its vassel lands (Harad, Rhun, the east, misty mountains ect.) should be all by themselves next to Northrend.
3. Does Arthas have Wow forces at his disposal, or Warcraft III or both?
4. Do we judge arthas by Wow or by warcraft III
5. Does Arthas have his servents from when he served the burning legion, like those dread lords on his side?
6. Do Arthas' dead minions count? Like all the lesser monsters who have been killed in Wow?
7. Does saruon get his forces from the second age, first age, and pior to that?
8. Does Sauron have the Ring, or does Gollum have it?
9. Sauroman? Corrupted by Saruon?
10. No heros right?
good fight
from,
EE
Edit- Oh Warty Goblin, alliance for this thread for the might of Sauron again? Bear in mind, i know a lot about Wow Lore, and the Lich King, if he can over come being corrupted by Sauron is a MUCH bigger threat to Sauron. As it is, he only hasn't won because the entire world and hell are against him. I still think Sauron will win but a lot bigger scale. So you want to work together on this one?

Executor
2007-11-29, 10:57 PM
I'm not so sure about Warcraft mortals > LOTR mortals. Elendil was 8 feet tall, 320 years old and could go toe-to-toe with the most powerful demigod of all time.

EvilElitest
2007-11-29, 11:04 PM
I'm not so sure about Warcraft mortals > LOTR mortals. Elendil was 8 feet tall, 320 years old and could go toe-to-toe with the most powerful demigod of all time.

Good point, we just have states on the Warcraft folks.

It seems that LK has the advantage of numbers, every one of Sauron's dead joins him, but Will they serve him? We known that his control is not absolute and Sauron can bend evil things to his will. Sauron is The Necromancer after all
from,
EE

Artemician
2007-11-30, 02:16 AM
I'm not so sure about Warcraft mortals > LOTR mortals. Elendil was 8 feet tall, 320 years old and could go toe-to-toe with the most powerful demigod of all time.

Similarly, Grom Hellscream was 7 feet tall, over 200 years old, and defeated two immensely powerful demigods. And he's not even at the pinnacle of power in the Warcraft Universe yet.

Warcarft heroes are definitely no slouches. They're just as powerful, if not more, than the heroes of Middle Earth.

factotum
2007-11-30, 03:04 AM
I think about it this way: Sauron couldn't really extend his influence outside the boundaries of Mordor except by physical means--e.g. sending armies, or using patsies to persuade locals to help. The one time he managed something along those lines (the huge cloud that blotted out the sun), it got blown away when the wind picked up!

Compare Nerz'hul, who has managed to permanently convert half the continent of Lordaeron into a haven of the Undead. That alone implies a level of power greater than Sauron's.

Of course, this is Sauron as he exists without the One Ring. We don't really have much evidence of how powerful he is when he possesses it--the Last Alliance of Elves and Men were able to take him down with great loss, but all we know of that really comes from "ancient history"; not enough detail to decide how much extra power it gave him.

warty goblin
2007-11-30, 09:21 AM
EE
Edit- Oh Warty Goblin, alliance for this thread for the might of Sauron again? Bear in mind, i know a lot about Wow Lore, and the Lich King, if he can over come being corrupted by Sauron is a MUCH bigger threat to Sauron. As it is, he only hasn't won because the entire world and hell are against him. I still think Sauron will win but a lot bigger scale. So you want to work together on this one?

Sure, long live the Anti-Sauron Defamation Allied League (ASDAL)! And yes, any information about WoW lore would be helpful since what I know of that universe can be summed up by "Uh, it has war and those that craft it"

EvilElitest
2007-11-30, 10:17 AM
I think about it this way: Sauron couldn't really extend his influence outside the boundaries of Mordor except by physical means--e.g. sending armies, or using patsies to persuade locals to help. The one time he managed something along those lines (the huge cloud that blotted out the sun), it got blown away when the wind picked up!

Compare Nerz'hul, who has managed to permanently convert half the continent of Lordaeron into a haven of the Undead. That alone implies a level of power greater than Sauron's.

Of course, this is Sauron as he exists without the One Ring. We don't really have much evidence of how powerful he is when he possesses it--the Last Alliance of Elves and Men were able to take him down with great loss, but all we know of that really comes from "ancient history"; not enough detail to decide how much extra power it gave him.
1. Yes he can acually, expand his bountries. Other than bloating out the sun (it was the magic of the west that destroyed his cloud) he was responsible for the great plague, the many armies, the corruption of mirkwood, the spawning of evil races
2. Sauron when he had the ring literally took over middle earth after winning the war of elves and Sauron, and that was against the greatest elven nation of the second age. It wasn't until the men of the west attacked him that he had left, and even than he destroyed their society from within
3. Arthas doesn't even fully control that half a continent he took over, he lacks the abilty to maintian his empire, 1/4 of his army deserted and is fighting against him, the blood elves have taken back their land, so yeah, Arthas isn't that great.



Sure, long live the Anti-Sauron Defamation Allied League (ASDAL)! And yes, any information about WoW lore would be helpful since what I know of that universe can be summed up by "Uh, it has war and those that craft it

For ASDAL!!!!!
Right here are the important points of the Lich King
He is a few thousand years old
He was once the surpirme leader of the Orcish race
Currently he has become a super lich. He also has bound himself with Arthas (the two may are now the same) a super death knight. Powers i recall include
Can dominate lost souls
Can corrupt the land
Within that corrupted land, anyone who dies rises as a zombie
Can use lots of frost magic
Can personally raise monsters that normally can't be raised (into crypt lords, wow fans know what i mean)
He can create almost any kind of wow undead
Amazing meele skills (he one hit killed Illedian, who was wow's greatest badass)
He wields a super evil powerful sword. I'd say it was on par with Narzil in terms of power, but it has free will and is evil (could very well be dominated by Sauron)
He can taint food so that anyone who eats it dies and become undead in his cause
His undead are mostly intellegent.

His land is a massive Glacier, on a frozen continate with only a little living space. But we known that it is livable, as the Walrus folk and the trolls live there and are fine, dispite the Lich King being right next to them (why doesn't he take them over first?)
His army includeds but is not limited to
Lots of Liches
Frost reverents (frost undead spirtys)
Lots of spider monsters who's name i can't spell
Wraiths
Wrights
Zombies
Ghouls
Intellegent Zombies (they aren't very loyal however)
Giant abominations (about 18 feet tall with three arms and stuff)
Giant maggots
Demon dogs
Banshees
Ok, a hell of a lot of minions, however it is important to note, normally they have no free will, but should Arthas suffer in a will battle at any point (even if he wins, he just needs to have trouble) a lot of his undead army will get free will and switch sides, ready to ally with who ever it takes to destroy him
Sauron is known for taking over others will, so i think arthas may have a problem
from,
EE

lipe44
2007-11-30, 01:09 PM
That would be a hell of fight, i really wouldnt like to be anywhere near that world...

Just a question why people keep insisting in Sauron with the ring instead of Sauron BEFORE he had the ring? The ring is his only weakness...

Anyway we need to pick a moment of their history so it makes sense or people will just bring B but when he had A he didnt had B...

EvilElitest
2007-11-30, 04:22 PM
That would be a hell of fight, i really wouldnt like to be anywhere near that world...

Just a question why people keep insisting in Sauron with the ring instead of Sauron BEFORE he had the ring? The ring is his only weakness...

Anyway we need to pick a moment of their history so it makes sense or people will just bring B but when he had A he didnt had B...

In the universe of LOTRS when ever any of the god like Valar or Mair used their magic for creation, they weakened themselves. Thus while Melkar could fight all of the other gods, in creating Demons, Dragons, Balrogs, Orcs, Trolls, Krakens, Winged Beasts, Were wolves, Wolves, Worgs, Goblins, Vampires corrupting the easterlings, undead, his two great evil fortresses and other evil creatures he drained himself of most of his power.
Sauron knew this, and so he made the ring to perserve his power, so he could use as much of it as he could, magnified without fear of his power running out. Thus he has all of his power, and can use it indefently.
from,
EE

lipe44
2007-11-30, 04:33 PM
In the universe of LOTRS when ever any of the god like Valar or Mair used their magic for creation, they weakened themselves. Thus while Melkar could fight all of the other gods, in creating Demons, Dragons, Balrogs, Orcs, Trolls, Krakens, Winged Beasts, Were wolves, Wolves, Worgs, Goblins, Vampires corrupting the easterlings, undead, his two great evil fortresses and other evil creatures he drained himself of most of his power.
Sauron knew this, and so he made the ring to perserve his power, so he could use as much of it as he could, magnified without fear of his power running out. Thus he has all of his power, and can use it indefently.
from,
EE

But still the ring is his major weakness... And i didnt knew the ring made any difference in keeping his power even after creating races/fortress... Where is that mentioned?

Shoyliguad
2007-11-30, 04:44 PM
All the lich king has to do is play defensivly and then use the dead from teh attacking army against them, when Sauron's army tires out the lich king marches across and destroys everyone.

EvilElitest
2007-11-30, 04:59 PM
But still the ring is his major weakness... And i didnt knew the ring made any difference in keeping his power even after creating races/fortress... Where is that mentioned?

1. Well first you have to kill him, take the ring, get to mount doom without being corrupted and throw it in.
2. Simeralion, Morgoth's power is drained by using up all that creation power. In the end of the Simeralion and the beginning of Fellowship they discuss that the rings were ment to preserve, it is revealed that Sauron could preserve his glory in Simeralion ect.

All the lich king has to do is play defensivly and then use the dead from teh attacking army against them, when Sauron's army tires out the lich king marches across and destroys everyone
You forget
1. Sauron can just spawn more orcs
2. Sauron can create undead as well
3. Sauron can bend evil creatures who his will (fellowship of the ring) and is a necromancer, so undead are defently corruptable (and we know they aren't that loyal)
from,
EE

Rowanomicon
2007-11-30, 05:00 PM
SSSAAAUUURRROOONNN!!!

I am so joining ASDAL.

OK, so I don't really think that such an expansive statement as WC mortals > ME mortals is warrented (same goes for vice versa); both universes have their heros and both have their... not-heros.


If we take quotes from the source material to be RAW then Sauron wins as he "draws all wicked creatures to Mordor to serve him" (WARNING: may not be a perfect quote).

Shoyliguard, I think you underestimate Sauron's tactical abilities. He doesn't start wars with a blind charge of his entire army. He feels out his enemies, learns their weaknesses, corrupts the people to his cause. He a subtle and slimy bastard and he wont fall into the trap of rushing blindly forward. patience is practically his middle name. In fact patience was his downfall in the LOTR trilogy. If he'd gone all out he could have won, but he didn't realise that is was do or die at that moment so he held back for later and a more complete victory. For him the Battle of the Pelennor was the beginning of the end; it wasn't the final battle in his mind by any means.

The Ring was created for two basic reasons:
1) Preserve Power: allowed him to use his full indefinitely without it diminishing
2)Dominate the World: Rule them, Find the, Bring them all and in the darkness bind them

I'm going to do some research (probably Wikipedia and Wowwiki) on the Lich King so I can more thoroughly bring victory to his greatness, Sauron.

....
2007-11-30, 05:01 PM
Well, if its a war, keep in mind that every single orc, swarthy man, goblin, and mountain troll that is killed by Arthas' forces will get back up later and start to assault Sauron. Remember the ghost soldiers that wiped out the first wave of Sauron's army? Banshees. Lots and lots of Banshees.

And the Lich King is no longer anything remotely like a mortal. Ghul'Dan was, but he was ripped apart and made into something much more powerful, united with Arthas and Frostmourne, even the Burning Legion is terrified of him. One of their most powerful servants, Illidan, got stomped down by Arthas before the Lich King joined with him. He's been called, by Blizzard, the most powerful entity in the WC universe.

Sauron is never called the most powerful entity in LOTR universe, hell, he was a simpering lieutenant until his boss got taken down.

WalkingTarget
2007-11-30, 05:10 PM
But still the ring is his major weakness... And i didnt knew the ring made any difference in keeping his power even after creating races/fortress... Where is that mentioned?

It isn't mentioned explicitly anywhere that I've read. The ring was to dominate others and seemed to be like a kind of "save state" feature for what Sauron had done up to that point (i.e. the foundations of Barad-dur etc.) but it was still a big gamble on Sauron's part as that portion of his power is totally bound to the ring and isn't recoverable. The elven rings were made with the power of preservation, the others enhanced the bearer's innate qualities (and had the backdoor trap to give Sauron root access).

Sauron doesn't do much in the way of creation after the ring to waste away his power like Morgoth did.

Edit: more posts while I composed mine.



1. Sauron can just spawn more orcs
2. Sauron can create undead as well
3. Sauron can bend evil creatures who his will (fellowship of the ring) and is a necromancer, so undead are defently corruptable (and we know they aren't that loyal)

1. Which takes longer than killing/reanimating them.
2. In much smaller numbers at larger personal expense.
3. Much better point, especially considering what I know of the LK's control is dependent on force of will, which we all know is one of Sauron's specialties.


I am so joining ASDAL.

I should probably do so as well (despite getting off on the wrong foot with some other members).


He's been called, by Blizzard, the most powerful entity in the WC universe.

Sauron is never called the most powerful entity in LOTR universe, hell, he was a simpering lieutenant until his boss got taken down.

Comparing relative power within their original contexts is not the best strategy to take here.

Hyperbole example - the mightiest ant the world has ever known isn't likely to stand up to well against the 15th most powerful tank.

I think it's a much closer fight than ant vs. tank, obviously, but the way you made your point isn't the strongest argument.

Rutee
2007-11-30, 05:16 PM
1. Sauron can just spawn more orcs
2. Sauron can create undead as well
3. Sauron can bend evil creatures who his will (fellowship of the ring) and is a necromancer, so undead are defently corruptable (and we know they aren't that loyal)
Actually, Sauron won't be taking control of the Lich King's undead without a fight. They don't have wills, at all; Direct expressions of the Lich King's will. The Death Knights (mostly) have wills, and are already quite corrupted, I promise you. And lest you believe the Lich King to be a mental weakling like Voldy, here's some examples of the Lich King's mental power:

1. From a different continent, from a mere lieutenant, a paladin of pretty decent might who's name escapes me refuses to leave the sacred church of Stratholme, a city long since conquerred by the undead, for fear of being completely controlled by the Lich King (Of course, this doesn't stop the intrepid PCs).
http://www.wowwiki.com/Aurius
2. 4 incredibly powerful Paladins, who are supposed to be (by virtue of paladinhood) immune to necromancy, have been twisted into his servants. These are heroes of the age; The most spiritually powerful among them at least has freedom of thought, and speech, though his body still serves the Lich King http://www.wowwiki.com/The_Four_Horsemen
Notably, http://www.wowwiki.com/Sir_Zeliek
http://www.wowwiki.com/Highlord_Mograine.
A note, Mograine is definitely bad-ass++. Or more precisely, was. I obviously can't /prove/ he's on Gil-Galad's level, but he's still really freaking mighty :P
3. Communing with Kel'Thuzad. Kel'Thuzad is probably around Gandalf or Saruman's level in power. Not necessarily at it, but approaching it. Kel'Thuzad couldn't keep the Lich King from basically reading his mind, and after that, coercing him into serving as his lieutenant; It wasn't coercion like the Four Horsemen, but coercion initially through fear. Of course, he's a loyal and quite happy lieutenant now, still serving the Lich King after the mind control was broken, so loyalties have changed, but was it magic or Kel'Thuzad's own choice? I don't actually know.

EvilElitest
2007-11-30, 05:22 PM
SSSAAAUUURRROOONNN!!!

I am so joining ASDAL.
I thought you were already a member. Me you and Warty Goblin. If not, welcome aboard


Well, if its a war, keep in mind that every single orc, swarthy man, goblin, and mountain troll that is killed by Arthas' forces will get back up later and start to assault Sauron. Remember the ghost soldiers that wiped out the first wave of Sauron's army? Banshees. Lots and lots of Banshees.

But bear in mind, Sauron can dominate evil creatures and is the most powerful undead in Middle Earth. And the lich kings unlike most of Sauron's undead, don't like there master.

And the Lich King is no longer anything remotely like a mortal. Ghul'Dan was, but he was ripped apart and made into something much more powerful, united with Arthas and Frostmourne, even the Burning Legion is terrified of him.
I thought the burning Legion couldn't be buggered to go out and kill him, not so much scared.

One of their most powerful servants, Illidan, got stomped down by Arthas before the Lich King joined with him. He's been called, by Blizzard, the most powerful entity in the WC universe.
Illidan isn't dead, and the Bizzard staff mention that the fight was shorter than intented, it was suppose to be a very long fight.


Sauron is never called the most powerful entity in LOTR universe, hell, he was a simpering lieutenant until his boss got taken down.
Um, Sauron is greatest of the Mairar and is described by Aragorn as only a lieutenent simple because Morgoth is the source of all evil. He was the most powerful and feared of Morgoth's servents, to the point where the Elves would not even mention his name. He is considered to be far more cunning than even his master and was the only of Morgoth's inner circle that escaped. And he is described as the more dangerous of the two evils, for while Morgoth only wanted to dominate, Sauron wished to corrupt

Sauron doesn't do much in the way of creation after the ring to waste away his power like Morgoth did.

The ring preserves his power (it can do everything all of the other rings can do an more) plus allows him to bring back the dark tower and black gate at a whim, and preserve his power. And he does create new races, Uruk-hai (sauruman only stole the idea and enchanced it) half-orcs, troll men, half trolls, wraiths, the fell beasts, the "great beasts" (the ones that pull the battering ram), Olag-hai, men orcs, goblin men, corrupted men, many evil socerors who draw from his limitless power, the phamtoms of the dead marshes, Barrow wrights, blotting out the sun, Grond, and tainting the land. Without lossing any power himself


Actually, Sauron won't be taking control of the Lich King's undead without a fight. They don't have wills, at all; Direct expressions of the Lich King's will. The Death Knights (mostly) have wills, and are already quite corrupted, I promise you. And lest you believe the Lich King to be a mental weakling like Voldy, here's some examples of the Lich King's mental power:
Um, it was a battle of wills that brought about the forsakon. So sorry, if the LIch King's army gets even the tinest bit of lee way, they switch sides and try to kill him. Sorry.

from,
EE

Rutee
2007-11-30, 05:31 PM
Um, it was a battle of wills that brought about the forsakon. So sorry, if the LIch King's army gets even the tinest bit of lee way, they switch sides and try to kill him. Sorry.
Did.. you read the text in the game? The Forsaken are created because Ner'zhul was temporarily leaking power from the Frozen Throne, and the control, once broken, didn't return (Mostly so that WoW would have Undead as playable). That wasn't a battle of wills.

And with The Lich King at max power (That is, within Arthas), that isn't really going to be happening again unless, perhaps, you start putting the smack down on him directly.


But bear in mind, Sauron can dominate evil creatures and is the most powerful undead in Middle Earth. And the lich kings unlike most of Sauron's undead, don't like there master.
The Lich King's /don't think/. There isn't much of an issue here. And, uh, I don't know why you bother mentioning that Sauron's the most powerful undead in ME; Ner'Zhul is pretty clearly the most powerful undead in Azeroth, if not THE most powerful being in its current existence.

EvilElitest
2007-11-30, 05:40 PM
Edit: more posts while I composed mine.

Please don't do that, just post a new point, because i didn't know you had posted new things



1. Which takes longer than killing/reanimating them.
2. In much smaller numbers at larger personal expense.
3. Much better point, especially considering what I know of the LK's control is dependent on force of will, which we all know is one of Sauron's specialties.
1. True, but orcs are more powerful than zombies, and while Sauron's destroys legions of zombies, he can spawn a rear guard
2. But his undead are more powerful, the WK is equal to Kel'Thuzad at least
3. And there is where he dominates



I should probably do so as well (despite getting off on the wrong foot with some other members).
Who do you have a problem with? I have no objection to you joining.



Comparing relative power within their original contexts is not the best strategy to take here.

Hyperbole example - the mightiest ant the world has ever known isn't likely to stand up to well against the 15th most powerful tank.

I think it's a much closer fight than ant vs. tank, obviously, but the way you made your point isn't the strongest argument.

Good point

In middle earth, the worlds most powerful orc is nothing compared to the worlds most powerful elf ect. It is a matter of realitivity
Also, the lich king is the most powerful creature that is still alive, Sargaros was more powerful, and Kil-jaden could be greater.

Executor
2007-11-30, 05:47 PM
Sauron isn't really Undead. He's an immortal demigod that is literally older than the universe. The Lich King is the mind and magical power of an Orcish warlock, combined with the body of a heavily corrupted human ex-Paladin.

They may both be powerful, but i'm inclined to believe that Sauron is the stronger. When you think about it the Lich King is more similar to the Witch-King than Sauron. An undead warlock/death knight is not equal to an immortal Demigod, and it must be noted that he was part of the choir who chanted the world into existence. Sauron isn't alive, dead or undead, he simply exists. He's a constant of the universe. You can reduce him in power to naught but a spirit of malice, but Sauron is still there. Sauron is like gravity or hydrogen, you just can't get rid of him.

EvilElitest
2007-11-30, 05:48 PM
Did.. you read the text in the game? The Forsaken are created because Ner'zhul was temporarily leaking power from the Frozen Throne, and the control, once broken, didn't return (Mostly so that WoW would have Undead as playable). That wasn't a battle of wills.

But this proves

1.that should the lich king ever suffer in a battle of will, his men will simple desert him. That if he ever is pervent from maintaining control, his dudes leave
2. That his dudes have intellegence, they just are being controlled. They are not mindless zombies, they are intellegent being who are being controlled against their will




And with The Lich King at max power (That is, within Arthas), that isn't really going to be happening again unless, perhaps, you start putting the smack down on him directly.
Sauron's will vs. LK's will. I'm goint to go with Sauron on this one, that is where he excells
and bear in mind, Sauron can bend evil creatures, perticually undead to his will.


The Lich King's /don't think/. There isn't much of an issue here.
yes they do, other wise they would just stand around after being realised by the LK. They do think, they just are being controlled (or some of them., not all)


And, uh, I don't know why you bother mentioning that Sauron's the most powerful undead in ME; Ner'Zhul is pretty clearly the most powerful undead in Azeroth, if not THE most powerful being in its current existence.

I think the Witch King is greater than Ner'Zhul
from,
EE

Rutee
2007-11-30, 05:49 PM
In middle earth, the worlds most powerful orc is nothing compared to the worlds most powerful elf ect. It is a matter of realitivity
Also, the lich king is the most powerful creature that is still alive, Sargaros was more powerful, and Kil-jaden could be greater.
Oh, probably. I was careful in saying "In its current existence" for a reason.


1. True, but orcs are more powerful than zombies, and while Sauron's destroys legions of zombies, he can spawn a rear guard
2. But his undead are more powerful, the WK is equal to Kel'Thuzad at least
3. And there is where he dominates
1. True, but every kill yields another Zombie, and SAuron doesn't seem to have Priests or other anti-undead specialists on his side. Not to downtalk his side, but there's no holy, as it were.
2. I...dunno.. Kel'Thuzad seems more powerful then the WK to me. What were the WK's credentials before death? 'cause Kel'Thuzad was an accomplished arch mage and member of Dalaran's ruling council, Dalaran being a magocracy that produces Azeroth's most powerful mages, time and time again throughout history.
3. Why are we assuming SAuron is better at mental control then the Lich King?

EvilElitest
2007-11-30, 06:04 PM
1. True, but every kill yields another Zombie, and SAuron doesn't seem to have Priests or other anti-undead specialists on his side. Not to downtalk his side, but there's no holy, as it were.
True, but don't underestimate sauron's corrupting powers


2. I...dunno.. Kel'Thuzad seems more powerful then the WK to me. What were the WK's credentials before death? 'cause Kel'Thuzad was an accomplished arch mage and member of Dalaran's ruling council, Dalaran being a magocracy that produces Azeroth's most powerful mages, time and time again throughout history.
Little is known of the WK, but we do know he was the greatest human caster at the time, king of a massive realm (the black nudomorians) and a rival to gondor pior to his corrupting



3. Why are we assuming SAuron is better at mental control then the Lich King?

Sauron's biggest power is his mental control, the LK is just good at it. Sauron has a god like will from the time before time, the LK is just a really powerful being. Sauron
from,
EE

Rutee
2007-11-30, 06:19 PM
True, but don't underestimate sauron's corrupting powers
They're already corrupted though... -.-


Sauron's biggest power is his mental control, the LK is just good at it. Sauron has a god like will from the time before time, the LK is just a really powerful being. Sauron
A really powerful being on par with Gods, yes; I already showed you some credentials earlier. Maybe the LK is worse at it; But you're being quite silleh in assuming that he's nothing compared to Sauron.

Sauron can't make direct mental contact, seemingly, unless you're either one of his special followers, or you're using a powerful artifact (Like the Palantir). The Lich King maintains his mental control with or without his lieutenants over much greater distances (MIddle Earth is still just the one continent; The Lich King has servants on 2 seperate continents aside from the one he dominates). Further, let's be honest; On top of numerous heroic types (Probably more powerful then the Nazgul, and Ner'Zhul didn't need to slap artifacts on these guys first, mostly) that he's bent to his service, he is through sheer force of will controlling his entire army. On /top/ of said Nazgul-equivalents in power, and there are probably more of those.

I think the possibility is worth exploring that the Lich King is better at mental domination then Sauron is, or his equal. Even if it IS Sauron's speciality.

warty goblin
2007-11-30, 06:26 PM
Sauron's title, in a weakened state far away from his base of power, is The Necromancer. I'm guessing that he's pretty adept at dealing with the undead. His nine most powerful servents are undead and slaves to his will. Granted, that's because of their Rings originally, but they don't even wear those anymore and are still completely in his thrall.

There's a reason that the Witch-King is called the Witch-King, he's an immensely powerful sorcerer (either that, or he's the cross-dressing ruler of a bunch of witches...). On his own, without the aid of Sauron, he overthrew the Kingdom of Arnor, which was at least as powerful as Gondor. Its also implied that he created the spirits of the Barrow Wights and may even have bred the forerunners of the Fell Beasts which he rides during the War of the Ring. His abode is Minas Morgul, which means the Tower of (dark) magic and glows green. In magical and physical combat, he's truly terrifying.

Zombies may be somewhat tougher than orcs, but they also are stupid. Sauron and co. are master of the manipulation of fire. Need I carry this point any further?

EvilElitest
2007-11-30, 06:32 PM
They're already corrupted though... -.-

Ok, so they will be more corrupted, just on his side




Sauron can't make direct mental contact, seemingly, unless you're either one of his special followers, or you're using a powerful artifact (Like the Palantir).
When he doesn't have the ring.
With the ring, the elves stated that the was terrifying.
Bear this in mind, it makes sesne that he would let one of the seven or nine rings "accidentally" get taken by the LK's servents


The Lich King maintains his mental control with or without his lieutenants over much greater distances (MIddle Earth is still just the one continent; The Lich King has servants on 2 seperate continents aside from the one he dominates). Further, let's be honest;
But that is just part of his power granted by Kil'Jaden, controling all his undead. That isn't will, that is just his special power


I think the possibility is worth exploring that the Lich King is better at mental domination then Sauron is, or his equal. Even if it IS Sauron's speciality.
Other than Arthas, who has the LK corrupted through will?
from,
EE

Seraph
2007-11-30, 06:43 PM
Comparing relative power within their original contexts is not the best strategy to take here.

Hyperbole example - the mightiest ant the world has ever known isn't likely to stand up to well against the 15th most powerful tank.

I think it's a much closer fight than ant vs. tank, obviously, but the way you made your point isn't the strongest argument.

it becomes more impressive when you realize that the WC universe is full of creatures that shatter planets for fun.

Rutee
2007-11-30, 06:54 PM
Other than Arthas, who has the LK corrupted through will?
from,
EE
This will be something of a list, just going off of memory. And you really need to learn to read posts, and listen to other people's words. I provided a short list of examples already.
1. Every single grunt in his army. The plague that makes them undead doesn't force them to be murderous monsters; His will does that to them; True, the Forsaken are an angry bunch, but not outright and immediately /murderous/.
2. The Young, by LotR standards, but insanely powerful, Highlord Morgraine. (http://www.wowwiki.com/Highlord_Mograine). along with the other four horsemen (http://www.wowwiki.com/The_Four_Horsemen). IT is taken as a sign of immense will and spiritual purity that Sir Zeliek's (http://www.wowwiki.com/Sir_Zeliek) mind is his own, even if his body is forfeit.
3. http://www.wowwiki.com/Kel'Thuzad]Kel'Thuzad (http://www.wowwiki.com/Kel'Thuzad[/url), as can be seen here (http://www.wowwiki.com/The_Road_to_Damnation)
4. Anub'arak (http://www.wowwiki.com/Anub'arak), and similarly, the other Crypt Lords (http://www.wowwiki.com/Crypt_Lord). IT should be noted that Nerubians, in-setting, are pretty darn powerful in lineage, as the former servants of Cthulhu-esque primal deities.
5. Sapphiron (http://www.wowwiki.com/Sapphiron) True, he doesn't get a long huge backstory, but I'm /pretty sure/ Dragons don't necessarily need them to establish a pedigree of power.
6. Aurius (http://www.wowwiki.com/Aurius), if you're a Blood Elf Pally seeking their mount, basically have to extinguish the power of the church that's keeping him from being corrupted. WHile it's true that he's not a major NPC, keep in mind the distance factors, and that Ner'Zhul is, presumably, not even really trying; Being in Stratholme, one of his strongholds in the Eastern Kingdoms, by itself is doing it.
Just a few off the top of my head, really




Zombies may be somewhat tougher than orcs, but they also are stupid. Sauron and co. are master of the manipulation of fire. Need I carry this point any further?
Sauron is a fire elemental himself, no?
Does the fact that Nerzhy's Liches are masters of Ice Magic not register? :P



But that is just part of his power granted by Kil'Jaden, controling all his undead. That isn't will, that is just his special power
Kil'Jaeden didn't really grant Ner'Zhul more power. He essentially cast Raise Dead on him, then locked him up in the Frozen Throne. Ner'Zhul was plenty damn powerful already from his time as a Warlock.


When he doesn't have the ring.
With the ring, the elves stated that the was terrifying.
Bear this in mind, it makes sesne that he would let one of the seven or nine rings "accidentally" get taken by the LK's servents
He needs an artifact of his own design to do what the Lich King can do naturally then? I see.

And uh, those rings are, I thought, grafted to the Nazgul. I don't /think/ they're going anywhere. Assuming that gambit would work in the first place.

Edit: And I'm just checking, but uh, y'all can accept that one does not need to be descended from awesome to be awesome, right? I'd hate to think that I'd hear, say, "Well Morgraine is garbage because he's not hundreds of years old nor is he claimed to be the descendant of a branch that has divine power".

warty goblin
2007-11-30, 07:45 PM
Sauron isn't a "fire elemental", he's a spirit associated with fire and craftsmenship. He's also not on fire, but can take the form of a warrior with really hot skin. In short, since he's not on fire, you can't put him out with cold. He can, however, do just fine burning through ice magic- assuming that it ever gets by his formidable counterspelling power.

Remember, Warcraft might have the occasional being who destroys planets, but somehow I doubt that they can raise mountain ranges because they want better natural defenses. Sauron's power is not just about destroying things, he also is an incrediably skilled artifacer.The Ring may be his masterpiece, but he also built the foundations to Barad-Dur, which are literally indestructable, as long as the Ring exists.

Sauron is also really really good at corrupting things and getting them to do his bidding without realizing it. He's so good at it, he managed to play the Numenorians, who make pretty much any other power look weak and the actual gods fight each other. That's right folks, he actually essentially got the gods themselves to do his bidding. If there's any neutral or good powers that dislike the Lich King I feel it safe to say that Sauron can drag them into battle on his side if he wants.

Then there's the little matter of assailing Morder itself. There's only three ways in, through Minas Morgul, the Moranon and Cirith Ungol. Sauron controls the weather in the mountains as well. The Moranon and Minas Morgul are pretty impossible to take (for Minas Morgol, take Minas Tirith, then add lots and lots of dark magic defenses and other, terrifying things). The Moranon might fall to a very protracted siege, after all the Last Alliance did it, but it took them something like 7-10 years to break Morder. Within Morder is enough farmland to apparently sustain several thousand orcs at least, I'm not 100% sure of the numbers. Also, Olag-Hai. They are under the direct mental control of Sauron, and are invulnerable to normal weapons, so one can basically kill zombies and grunts until it passes out from fatigue.

TheElfLord
2007-11-30, 08:05 PM
Okay, coming in a little late to the thread, but thought I would throw out some compassons on power levels to provide some food for thought.

Morgoth is on the same level as Sargaras. The similarity between the two is huge. They both fulfil their respective universes devil slot.

Sauron is Morgoth's Cheif Leutenant. The Closest comparason in WC would be Archmonde, although I would rate Saron as more powerful than Archmonde relativly, because Archemonde is about equal to Kil'jedeen, and Saron has no near equals.

The Lich King, even merged with Arthas (and since, as discoverd in Frozen throne, Arthas gets his power from the Lich King, he can't have added all that much), still would be less powerful than the former lord of the Legion.

EvilElitest
2007-11-30, 08:06 PM
This will be something of a list, just going off of memory. And you really need to learn to read posts, and listen to other people's words. I provided a short list of examples already.
1. Every single grunt in his army. The plague that makes them undead doesn't force them to be murderous monsters; His will does that to them; True, the Forsaken are an angry bunch, but not outright and immediately

No that is just the nature of undeath, the undead obey their creator. It is is no so different from Necromancer in D&D, with the exception of the most powerful undead, if you have hte power to control it, it is automatically controlled



/murderous/.
2. The Young, by LotR standards, but insanely powerful, Highlord Morgraine. (http://www.wowwiki.com/Highlord_Mograine). along with the other four horsemen (http://www.wowwiki.com/The_Four_Horsemen). IT is taken as a sign of immense will and spiritual purity that Sir Zeliek's (http://www.wowwiki.com/Sir_Zeliek) mind is his own, even if his body is forfeit.
He corrupted them through undeath, not will.


3. http://www.wowwiki.com/Kel'Thuzad]Kel'Thuzad (http://www.wowwiki.com/Kel'Thuzad[/url), as can be seen here (http://www.wowwiki.com/The_Road_to_Damnation)
Even though there was a voice inside his head, Kel'thuzad willing serves the Scourge.


4. Anub'arak (http://www.wowwiki.com/Anub'arak), and similarly, the other Crypt Lords (http://www.wowwiki.com/Crypt_Lord). IT should be noted that Nerubians, in-setting, are pretty darn powerful in lineage, as the former servants of Cthulhu-esque primal deities.
They are being controled through undead, not through will

5. Sapphiron (http://www.wowwiki.com/Sapphiron) True, he doesn't get a long huge backstory, but I'm /pretty sure/ Dragons don't necessarily need them to establish a pedigree of power.
Is he even intellegent any more?

6. Aurius (http://www.wowwiki.com/Aurius), if you're a Blood Elf Pally seeking their mount, basically have to extinguish the power of the church that's keeping him from being corrupted. WHile it's true that he's not a major NPC, keep in mind the distance factors, and that Ner'Zhul is, presumably, not even really trying; Being in Stratholme, one of his strongholds in the Eastern Kingdoms, by itself is doing it.
Just a few off the top of my head, really
doesn't say anything about his being corrupted in the link by the by


Sauron is a fire elemental himself, no?
Does the fact that Nerzhy's Liches are masters of Ice Magic not register? :P
Fire beats ice. Sauron's hellish fire beats a lot
Also the Witch King has powers over ice and frost
when your corrupted by undeath, that isn't the owner's will power, that is the nature of undeath
from,
EE

Kil'Jaeden didn't really grant Ner'Zhul more power. He essentially cast Raise Dead on him, then locked him up in the Frozen Throne. Ner'Zhul was plenty damn powerful already from his time as a Warlock.


He needs an artifact of his own design to do what the Lich King can do naturally then? I see.

And uh, those rings are, I thought, grafted to the Nazgul. I don't /think/ they're going anywhere. Assuming that gambit would work in the first place.

Edit: And I'm just checking, but uh, y'all can accept that one does not need to be descended from awesome to be awesome, right? I'd hate to think that I'd hear, say, "Well Morgraine is garbage because he's not hundreds of years old nor is he claimed to be the descendant of a branch that has divine power".[/QUOTE]

EvilElitest
2007-11-30, 08:09 PM
Okay, coming in a little late to the thread, but thought I would throw out some compassons on power levels to provide some food for thought.

Morgoth is on the same level as Sargaras. The similarity between the two is huge. They both fulfil their respective universes devil slot.

Sauron is Morgoth's Cheif Leutenant. The Closest comparason in WC would be Archmonde, although I would rate Saron as more powerful than Archmonde relativly, because Archemonde is about equal to Kil'jedeen, and Saron has no near equals.

The Lich King, even merged with Arthas (and since, as discoverd in Frozen throne, Arthas gets his power from the Lich King, he can't have added all that much), still would be less powerful than the former lord of the Legion.
I generally agree with you, but wouldn't Sauron be more like kil'jedeen (the smart, cunning, maniuplitive spell casting corrupted and Gothmog more like Archemonde?
from
EE

Rutee
2007-11-30, 08:47 PM
No that is just the nature of undeath, the undead obey their creator. It is is no so different from Necromancer in D&D, with the exception of the most powerful undead, if you have hte power to control it, it is automatically controlled

You are wrong, in as few words as possible. Longer version, the setting pretty much explicitly says you are wrong. Further, if it weren't the Lich King directly or indirectly (Through lieutenants, like, formerly, Arthas), how could the Forsaken have happened at all?


He corrupted them through undeath, not will.
Windmills do not work that way; See above.


Even though there was a voice inside his head, Kel'thuzad willing serves the Scourge.
Did you.. read the story?


They are being controled through undead, not through will
because every magic system ever works just like DnD. Now tell my Warlock she needs to prepare spells.


Is he even intellegent any more?
Who cares? You didn't ask me that.


doesn't say anything about his being corrupted in the link by the by
Okay, I suppose it was a bit much to expect you to read what was placed in front of you;

http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:The_Medallion_of_Faith


The power of this chapel gives me the strength to resist the corruption in my heart. If I leave it, I will become a death knight. But there is a medallion, the medallion of faith, that will give me the strength I need to leave.

Please, <name>, retrieve the medallion. It is guarded by Malor the Zealous, a crazed member of the Scarlet Brotherhood who resides deep in the Scarlet Bastion in western Stratholme.


Fire beats ice. Sauron's hellish fire beats a lot
Also the Witch King has powers over ice and frost
when your corrupted by undeath, that isn't the owner's will power, that is the nature of undeath
Uh, no? Water and Fire are elemental opposites; They beat each other. Do I need to explain classic fantasy tropes?



The Lich King, even merged with Arthas (and since, as discoverd in Frozen throne, Arthas gets his power from the Lich King, he can't have added all that much), still would be less powerful than the former lord of the Legion.
Players have beaten Archimonde, who is only narrowly less powerful then Kil'Jaeden. Blizzard has stated that we will never kill Arthas, just get in his way. I am /pretty sure/ that he is now more powerful then the current lord of the Legion.


Sauron isn't a "fire elemental", he's a spirit associated with fire and craftsmenship. He's also not on fire, but can take the form of a warrior with really hot skin. In short, since he's not on fire, you can't put him out with cold. He can, however, do just fine burning through ice magic- assuming that it ever gets by his formidable counterspelling power.
While having something as a purview does not /necessarily/ make it part of your state of being, it strikes me as distinctly probable when we're discussing spirits. And seriously, people; This isn't Voldemort. We're talking about a being that is in fact a legitimate threat. I'm pretty sure that his counterspelling is just an aspect of his casting prowess; The Lich King's casting prowess allowed him to open gates to other dimensions.



Remember, Warcraft might have the occasional being who destroys planets, but somehow I doubt that they can raise mountain ranges because they want better natural defenses. Sauron's power is not just about destroying things, he also is an incrediably skilled artifacer.The Ring may be his masterpiece, but he also built the foundations to Barad-Dur, which are literally indestructable, as long as the Ring exists.
..."This being can destroy my planet; Therefore, a small segment of this planet is a valid means of stopping him". I'm pretty sure Warcraft entities can't actually break worlds on a whim like Disgaea ones can, but the logical failing there should be self evident.

And while the Lich King is the subject of discussion, Warcraft Magic for non-destructive, non-straight combat roles is known; Take the Druidic order, f'rex. Especially Malfurion Stormrage.. And uh, "Literally indestructible"? every force in their creation has tried? I never buy claims of invulnerability, quite frankly; It just tells me you outclass everything near you.



Sauron is also really really good at corrupting things and getting them to do his bidding without realizing it. He's so good at it, he managed to play the Numenorians, who make pretty much any other power look weak and the actual gods fight each other. That's right folks, he actually essentially got the gods themselves to do his bidding. If there's any neutral or good powers that dislike the Lich King I feel it safe to say that Sauron can drag them into battle on his side if he wants.
No, I'm pretty sure we weren't discussing neutral and good powers here. It was Sauron's forces vs. the Lich King's. Same reason that the british government wasn't shooting nukes at Sauron. And the Lich King quite /masterfully/ plays Gods off each other himself. Hence how he is not under Kil'Jaeden's thumb any longer, really.


Then there's the little matter of assailing Morder itself. There's only three ways in, through Minas Morgul, the Moranon and Cirith Ungol. Sauron controls the weather in the mountains as well. The Moranon and Minas Morgul are pretty impossible to take (for Minas Morgol, take Minas Tirith, then add lots and lots of dark magic defenses and other, terrifying things). The Moranon might fall to a very protracted siege, after all the Last Alliance did it, but it took them something like 7-10 years to break Morder. Within Morder is enough farmland to apparently sustain several thousand orcs at least, I'm not 100% sure of the numbers. Also, Olag-Hai. They are under the direct mental control of Sauron, and are invulnerable to normal weapons, so one can basically kill zombies and grunts until it passes out from fatigue.
Notwithstanding a Death Knight (Many more of them then there are Nazgul), magical forces are actually pretty common among the Scourge.

And uh, I don't think the time scale matters. The scourge are undead. They don't need food, they don't age, they don't die natural deaths. Orcs are nearly infinitely replenishable. We're talking two forces who can fight for a /really long time/ without a critical victory.

EvilElitest
2007-11-30, 09:21 PM
You are wrong, in as few words as possible. Longer version, the setting pretty much explicitly says you are wrong. Further, if it weren't the Lich King directly or indirectly (Through lieutenants, like, formerly, Arthas), how could the Forsaken have happened at all?

Really, they provide a quote? Because from my understanding, if a necromancer kills you and raises you, you are bound to him as long as his power source in complete. The Lich King's power source was the frozen throne. When it was damaged, his control of the minions who he raised through that slipped, however and those who were raised through its power were able to break free. However, those who he raised personally were still controlled by him.



Windmills do not work that way; See above.
Proof?


Did you.. read the story?
Yes, while he was corrupted, after accepting his undead fate, he eventrually became the Scourges greatest champion. Sure, he was killed and raised as a lich, but it was his desire for power that drove him north, not mental corruption


because every magic system ever works just like DnD. Now tell my Warlock she needs to prepare spells.
Provide me something that proves me wrong. Necromancers raise and control undead, as long as they are able to maintain this control (i.e., keep their necro magics under control) they are fine.


Who cares? You didn't ask me that.

just curious




Okay, I suppose it was a bit much to expect you to read what was placed in front of you;

Little much. Ok what was placed in front of me

Aurius is a level 60 human paladin that can be found at the Alonsus Chapel in Stratholme's Elder's Square.
[edit] Background

The church he is kneeling in is apparently the same church where Uther Lightbringer took his oath as first paladin. If you can deliver the Medallion of Faith to Aurius, he will aid you in combat against the evil Baron Rivendare.

Blood elf paladins seeking their charger mounts must enter Stratholme and extinguish the eternal flame that burns in the chapel. When they do so, Aurius becomes hostile and must be killed, along with five ghost paladins that spawn upon Aurius' death. Like normal paladins, Aurius shields and heals himself.
says nothing in there about his being corrupted by the scourge, contact with Arthas, or serving the Lich King. The most evil thing it says is that he is using ghost paladins

The power of this chapel gives me the strength to resist the corruption in my heart. If I leave it, I will become a death knight. But there is a medallion, the medallion of faith, that will give me the strength I need to leave.

Please, <name>, retrieve the medallion. It is guarded by Malor the Zealous, a crazed member of the Scarlet Brotherhood who resides deep in the Scarlet Bastion in western Stratholme.
this is talking about Malor the Zealous, not Aurius. Did you get them mixed up, because they are defently different people
Malor by the way, is a member of the scarlet crusade, and thus not an agent of the scourge


Uh, no? Water and Fire are elemental opposites; They beat each other. Do I need to explain classic fantasy tropes?
Frost and fire are not opposites fire melts ice and gets ride of frost.


Players have beaten A rchimonde, who is only narrowly less powerful then Kil'Jaeden. Blizzard has stated that we will never kill Arthas, just get in his way. I am /pretty sure/ that he is now more powerful then the current lord of the Legion.
we don't know how powerful kil'jaeden is, so unless you provide me with a quote saying that the lord of a an army of undead on a single world is more powerful than the lord of a muti universe spanding empire i find this highly doubtful



While having something as a purview does not /necessarily/ make it part of your state of being, it strikes me as distinctly probable when we're discussing spirits.
can you re state your point? Are you saying that Sauron is vaulable to the LK's attacks?


And seriously, people; This isn't Voldemort. We're talking about a being that is in fact a legitimate threat. I'm pretty sure that his counterspelling is just an aspect of his casting prowess; The Lich King's casting prowess allowed him to open gates to other dimensions.
oh i'm aware that the LK is a much more dangerous than Voldemort, and has a chance of winning, i just don't agree with the points you've brought up
and why isn't the LK using his gates to help him in his current war, i don't recall him opening gates after he cut ties with the burning legion


..
."This being can destroy my planet; Therefore, a small segment of this planet is a valid means of stopping him". I'm pretty sure Warcraft entities can't actually break worlds on a whim like Disgaea ones can, but the logical failing there should be self evident.
wait, the Lich King can't destroy any planet. If he could, he most likely would have, or at least part of it. Hell, only the old gods come to mind who can destroy the world on a whim, and even then that is only if they come to there true power.




Especially Malfurion Stormrage.. And uh, "Literally indestructible"? every force in their creation has tried? I never buy claims of invulnerability, quite frankly; It just tells me you outclass everything near you.
Isn't Stormrage in a coma? And when did he become invulnerable? i am having a really hard time understanding you here


No, I'm pretty sure we weren't discussing neutral and good powers here. It was Sauron's forces vs. the Lich King's.
Unless the rules have chanced, yes


Same reason that the british government wasn't shooting nukes at Sauron. And the Lich King quite /masterfully/ plays Gods off each other himself. Hence how he is not under Kil'Jaeden's thumb any longer, really.
Ummm, what are you talking about?
British in Middle Earth? What
from,
EE

Selrahc
2007-11-30, 09:46 PM
Arthas has large numbers of Frost Wyrms. Undead zeppelins. Hordes of gargoyles. Thats a giant unstoppable airforce, capable of large scale devastation, and destruction of fortresses, going up against almost no arial defences. Hes from a world with a tech level signifigantly above that in middle earth. Hes got a lot of spell casters working for him. The more powerful followers he commands can take on whole armies by themselves. The general power of his followers is signifigantly above the orcs, man for man. And he has a large numbers advantage too, which will only get bigger as the fights keep going. The fortifications Sauron has up around his home realm aren't going to last long against the siege engines, spells and monsters of the undead. The banshees can sow havoc by possesing enemy commanders. The undead unleash horrific plagues on their foes, devastating their ranks before battle is even joined. Similarly, food is going to run out. All the stuff Lordaeron had to face, except the orcs don't have holy healers to make everything all right again.

Sauron has orcs, trolls, Nazgul, men and big elephants. His forces are massively outclassed in every area. By a long way. I can't think of a single area where Sauron has an advantage, that doesn't rely on him personally.

If it is army versus army, then the Lich King has it cold. Hes from a higher powered world.

Personal combat, without the minions, between the two dark lords might be a different matter altogether.

Rutee
2007-11-30, 09:51 PM
Really, they provide a quote? Because from my understanding, if a necromancer kills you and raises you, you are bound to him as long as his power source in complete. The Lich King's power source was the frozen throne. When it was damaged, his control of the minions who he raised through that slipped, however and those who were raised through its power were able to break free. However, those who he raised personally were still controlled by him.

For the love of.

In the Frozen Throne the Lich King experimented with his psychic powers and enslaved the local indigenous life forms. The plague of undeath that came from the Frozen Throne transformed each of them into his undead servants.
From: http://www.wowwiki.com/Lich_King
His will is in fact the instrumental part of his control over them. Again; Forsaken. It's apparently breakable, but we're talking about a rather large force, as it spans multiple continents.


Yes, while he was corrupted, after accepting his undead fate, he eventrually became the Scourges greatest champion. Sure, he was killed and raised as a lich, but it was his desire for power that drove him north, not mental corruption
Now, subtle, slow corruption as a concept aside... Note the ending. He wanted to resist the Lich King, after all.


Provide me something that proves me wrong. Necromancers raise and control undead, as long as they are able to maintain this control (i.e., keep their necro magics under control) they are fine.
Already done; In the future, when you assume how a magic system works, the onus is on you to prove you're correct, not the other way around.



this is talking about Malor the Zealous, not Aurius. Did you get them mixed up, because they are defently different people
Malor by the way, is a member of the scarlet crusade, and thus not an agent of the scourge

....Now, I checked that just to be sure I hadn't gone crazy; No, Aurius is the speaker, and the pendant is /held/ by Malor.

And the Scarlet Crusade may in fact not be agents of the scourge.. But there is a very good reason why they are not being mind controlled by the Lich King. (http://www.wowwiki.com/Scarlet_Crusade#Corruption_from_Within). Warning: Spoilers in that link.


Frost and fire are not opposites fire melts ice and gets ride of frost.
Water. Fire. Elemental. Opposites. There's not common sense here; Water beats fire, in common sense. As a fictional element, water and fire beat each other, and are weak to each other.


we don't know how powerful kil'jaeden is, so unless you provide me with a quote saying that the lord of a an army of undead on a single world is more powerful than the lord of a muti universe spanding empire i find this highly doubtful
*Facepalm*
Kil'Jaeden is roughly as powerful (a bit moreso, but not /much/ moreso) then Archimonde.

Archimonde has been killed by players.

Ner'Zhul /can not/ be killed by players, ever; You will slow him down, not kill him.

Unless Kil'Jaeden was, in fact, significantly more powerful then Archimonde (A valid possibility, but not the logical conclusion), Ner'Zhul > Kil'Jaeden. The logic is not that difficult.


can you re state your point? Are you saying that Sauron is vaulable to the LK's attacks?
Sure; I'm saying that if he's a spirit associated with fire, he takes the traits of fire, as a classical trope. If I'm wrong, fine, but can you point me to word of god/canon that'll say so?


wait, the Lich King can't destroy any planet. If he could, he most likely would have, or at least part of it. Hell, only the old gods come to mind who can destroy the world on a whim, and even then that is only if they come to there true power.

Well, Ner'Zhul HAS broken a planet already; Draenor, anyone? Granted, he had some help by siphoning some power from Medivh and Sargeras' artifacts, but.. I don't think he wants to do that again anyway. Like I said.. "I don't think Warcraft entities can break planets on a whim", but the logical failing in using a mountain to protect you from something that can break the world strikes me as glaring.


Isn't Stormrage in a coma? And when did he become invulnerable? i am having a really hard time understanding you here

Ah, I'll clear that up by placing a line break more properly.

"And while the Lich King is the subject of discussion, Warcraft Magic for non-destructive, non-straight combat roles is known; Take the Druidic order, f'rex. Especially Malfurion Stormrage..

And uh, "Literally indestructible"? every force in their creation has tried? I never buy claims of invulnerability, quite frankly; It just tells me you outclass everything near you."


Ummm, what are you talking about?
British in Middle Earth? What
Same point as above; In the Voldemort vs. Sauron thread, we also discounted Neutral/Good powers from this; We only wanted the Big Bads and their forces, not unaligned forces.

EvilElitest
2007-11-30, 10:28 PM
For the love of.


Funny, i've been thinking the same thing

In the Frozen Throne the Lich King experimented with his psychic powers and enslaved the local indigenous life forms. The plague of undeath that came from the Frozen Throne transformed each of them into his undead servants.
only after they are dead. He doesn't dominate them until he kills them. If you look at it, he is just a vastly powerful necromancer on a god like level, but he simple controls them, doesn't corrupt them (with the exception of Arthas, and possible Kel'thuzad). he is like the queen of a coleny, he controls all of the undead, but should something happen to him, his guys ether wander mindlessly or gain will. Now some of those willful guys might be loyal, like Kel'thuzad, but if Sauron, who can bend evil creatures to his will can break them off from the hive, or at least give them a choice, Arthas is in trouble
Even more so, because Sauron can raise his own undead as well, and corrupt others (he corrupts the phantoms of the dead marshes, and the WK corrupts the evil spirts of the north)


From: http://www.wowwiki.com/Lich_King
His will is in fact the instrumental part of his control over them. Again; Forsaken. It's apparently breakable, but we're talking about a rather large force, as it spans multiple continents.
But only after they are dead. He isn't weak willed, but certainly isn't a god.


Now, subtle, slow corruption as a concept aside... Note the ending. He wanted to resist the Lich King, after all.

He also wanted power, so his will to resist the Lich King is limited. He was an ambitous self serving bastard from the start, he didn't get cold feet until the end.
Now Sauron pulled off much better corrupting than that, not that the Lich King is bad, Sauron is just better



Already done; In the future, when you assume how a magic system works, the onus is on you to prove you're correct, not the other way around.
Not really, you just proved that the LK controls his undead minions through his mind. I already knew that, i want to know if he can dominate the minds of creatures without his necromantic magic


....Now, I checked that just to be sure I hadn't gone crazy; No, Aurius is the speaker, and the pendant is /held/ by Malor.
explains so much.

And the Scarlet Crusade may in fact not be agents of the scourge.. But there is a very good reason why they are not being mind controlled by the Lich King. (http://www.wowwiki.com/Scarlet_Crusade#Corruption_from_Within). Warning: Spoilers in that link.

Regardless on the Scarlets Crusade's corruption, they may be evil, but they hate the undead, thus that doesn't count as Arthas' minions, so your point is moot. Malor is evil, but not serving the LK



Water. Fire. Elemental. Opposites. There's not common sense here; Water beats fire, in common sense. As a fictional element, water and fire beat each other, and are weak to each other.
water and frost are two different things. If Arthas proved that he could control water in a magical manner, i'd understand your point, but he just uses ice and frost, and that isn't going to work against Sauron's fire


*Facepalm*
Kil'Jaeden is roughly as powerful (a bit moreso, but not /much/ moreso) then Archimonde.
No, we don't know how powerful he is

The exact powers at the Deceiver's command are unknown. As his ultimatum to Illidan and his appearance to Ner'zhul and the orcs exemplifies, he is a master of illusions. Kil'jaeden has also shown ability to control his overall size (an ability shared by Archimonde), but that may not be the limit to his shapeshifting abilities. Though these are the only powers observed in recent years, assuming that these cantrips are the limits of his power is a grave mistake. He is credited with enslaving the Dreadlords, a feat that would have required immense cunning and awesome magic, and his rank within the Legion and the eredar are listed as higher than Archimonde's. Even prior to the eredar's transformation, Velen acknowledged that Kil'jaeden was his, as well as Archimonde's, superior in matters of the arcane.

However, Kil'jaeden's full powers lie not within the boundaries of physical and magical ability, but in the mind. His unrivaled cunning placed him first in position in the ranks of the Burning Legion, and so aptly gave him the title of the Deceiver. He managed the corruption of the orcs with very little magical expenditure, a plan executed almost entirely by manipulation


Archimonde has been killed by players.
Techoneclly he was killed by players and the wisp spirts and he is not killed by them, just hurt

The Burning Crusade expansion opens the Caverns of Time to players, and the crowning event of the instance is the attempt to ensure that the Battle of Mount Hyjal goes as planned. Archimonde is an un-killable raid boss, but players fight Archimonde's army of undead and demons until the final moments of the battle. See Archimonde (tactics) and Battle for Mount Hyjal for more information.
from wowwiki


Ner'Zhul /can not/ be killed by players, ever; You will slow him down, not kill him.
Acually, we don't know that yet, as he is essential to the plot, we can't say how long it takes until we players face him. He is acknolaged as powerful, but we don't know how compared to Kil'Jaeden until one or the other appears in an expansion

Unless Kil'Jaeden was, in fact, significantly more powerful then Archimonde (A valid possibility, but not the logical conclusion), Ner'Zhul > Kil'Jaeden. The logic is not that difficult.
considering we haven't seen ether the LK or Kil'jaden fight sense Arthas' transformation, that isn't at all logical. My pets are on the 25 thousand year old caster demon.


Sure; I'm saying that if he's a spirit associated with fire, he takes the traits of fire, as a classical trope. If I'm wrong, fine, but can you point me to word of god/canon that'll say so?

but is he weak towards cold? He never has shown himself to be.


Well, Ner'Zhul HAS broken a planet already; Draenor, anyone? Granted, he had some help by siphoning some power from Medivh and Sargeras' artifacts, but..
He did that by mistake. It was an accident, it was tore apart by his over use of portals powered by his master.

I don't think he wants to do that again anyway.
He can't, he lacks the raw power.

Like I said.. "I don't think Warcraft entities can break planets on a whim", but the logical failing in using a mountain to protect you from something that can break the world strikes me as glaring.
But he can't do so, he honestly can't destroy any amount of the world through raw power. After his transformation into a lich, name me one instance were he accually destroys a large amount of the earth (mountain range, continent, hell, even a valley would be nice) through raw magical power


Ah, I'll clear that up by placing a line break more properly.
thank you


"And while the Lich King is the subject of discussion, Warcraft Magic for non-destructive, non-straight combat roles is known; Take the Druidic order, f'rex. Especially Malfurion Stormrage..
While that point is true, it is slightly irrelevant.
1. the Lk lacks Druid magic
2. Stormrage is good, but not good enough to best the LK or Sauron
3. Can you tie this back to the LK

And uh, "Literally indestructible"? every force in their creation has tried? I never buy claims of invulnerability, quite frankly; It just tells me you outclass everything near you."
Sauron can't be killed by anything, he can be reduced to a minor spirt through the ring's destruction, but that is the best you can do


Same point as above; In the Voldemort vs. Sauron thread, we also discounted Neutral/Good powers from this; We only wanted the Big Bads and their forces, not unaligned forces.
Ah, well i've never brought up neutral third parties
from,
EE

EvilElitest
2007-11-30, 10:37 PM
Arthas has large numbers of Frost Wyrms. Undead zeppelins. Hordes of gargoyles. Thats a giant unstoppable airforce, capable of large scale devastation, and destruction of fortresses, going up against almost no arial defences.

When does Arthas get zeppelins after his transformation into an undead
He doesn't have a that many Frost Wyrms.
Hoards? More like a few thousand
Now Sauron can counter with nine immortal flying undead wizard kings
Dragons (if we count him during the first age)
Vampires
His own magic
the weather (can make flying tough)
domination of will
Speaking of which, how does Arthas control Gargoyoles? I would imagine that sauron could dominate them.


Hes from a world with a tech level signifigantly above that in middle earth.
Tech that to date, i've never seen him use.

Hes got a lot of spell casters working for him.
True, but lesser casters.

The more powerful followers he commands can take on whole armies by themselves. The
Who? Kel'zhuad is the only one i can think of


general power of his followers is signifigantly above the orcs, man for man.
orc beats zombie


And he has a large numbers advantage too, which will only get bigger as the fights keep going.
How many men does the Lich King have? does he really start out with a number advantage.


The fortifications Sauron has up around his home realm aren't going to last long against the siege engines, spells and monsters of the undead.
Sauron can corrupt them and bend them to his will

The banshees can sow havoc by possesing enemy commanders.
Sauron has already possesed most ofthem.

The undead unleash horrific plagues on their foes, devastating their ranks before battle is even joined.
That requires his guys to eat the food, if you mean the tainted meat. As for the normal plauge, bear in mind Sauron knows about plauges he realized one on gonder, so i assume that he can protect his troops

Similarly, food is going to run out.
How? You need to get past the black gate to get to his farms.

All the stuff Lordaeron had to face, except the orcs don't have holy healers to make everything all right again.
And Lordaeron doesn't have evil magic, undead powers, hundreds of thousand s of people/monsters, and beats.

Sauron has orcs, trolls, Nazgul, men and big elephants.
Magic, and undead

His forces are massively outclassed in every area. By a long way. I can't think of a single area where Sauron has an advantage, that doesn't rely on him personally.
Skill? In the begining numbers? Orginization? Tatics? Debatable magic, sheer strength, compatence. Defensive
from,
EE

Rutee
2007-11-30, 10:48 PM
only after they are dead. He doesn't dominate them until he kills them. If you look at it, he is just a vastly powerful necromancer on a god like level, but he simple controls them, doesn't corrupt them (with the exception of Arthas, and possible Kel'thuzad). he is like the queen of a coleny, he controls all of the undead, but should something happen to him, his guys ether wander mindlessly or gain will. Now some of those willful guys might be loyal, like Kel'thuzad, but if Sauron, who can bend evil creatures to his will can break them off from the hive, or at least give them a choice, Arthas is in trouble
Even more so, because Sauron can raise his own undead as well, and corrupt others (he corrupts the phantoms of the dead marshes, and the WK corrupts the evil spirts of the north)
Uh, the paragraph structure didn't make it clear to you? They were dominated first, THEN became undead? While I don't actually doubt that you're correct in the end case of what happens to the others should the Lich King be whacked, that's not really germane; I have demonstrated to you why it is not just the undeath. Your counterpoints pretty much rely on a demonstrably incorrect view of how things work.

Provide counter-examples now, please. Prove to me that you're right. Even if you could shoot down every point I made (And you're frankly not), all you would be doing is bringing it back to the realm of ambiguity. You wouldn't be proving anything. Begin doing so now, please.



Spoiler Snip
...
Malor is not the subject of discussion. I'll try and explain this for you again. Aurius (http://www.wowwiki.com/Aurius) is in Stratholme, one of hte Lich King's bases. Aurius is a Paladin resisting the Lich King's corruption; See his line here: http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:The_Medallion_of_Faith

"The power of this chapel gives me the strength to resist the corruption in my heart. If I leave it, I will become a death knight."
He is a living being, not even directly exposed to the Lich King's mind, who is facing the threat of becoming the Lich King's servant simply due to the corruption present; As a paladin, he is immune to the Plague, so no, it's not that.. By itself, this pretty much handles EVERY SINGLE CLAIM of you saying that it's "Just the undeath".

For that matter, any other former paladin (See: Four Horsemen) is equal proof, because /Paladins can not be raised as undead/ unless they renounce their paladinhood.


He also wanted power, so his will to resist the Lich King is limited. He was an ambitous self serving bastard from the start, he didn't get cold feet until the end.
Now Sauron pulled off much better corrupting than that, not that the Lich King is bad, Sauron is just better

....Okay, except not. He was a powerhungry SoB BECAUSE of Ner'Zhul. You're screwing up the order of operations. That's /how corruption works/. Lord almighty.


True, but lesser casters.
Yeah, benath Sauron and hte Nazgul, sure. He's got more spellcasters on the Nazgul level then Sauron does, and he's got more Necromancers then Sauron's got Black Numenorians (I would think). I've also got good reason to believe his top casters beat out the Nazgul.


Who? Kel'zhuad is the only one i can think of
http://www.wowwiki.com/Necropolis_Naxxramas
Every boss there except maybe Noth is independently that powerful. That's pretty much how Warcraft works mechanically too; The heroes made or broke battles, armies were infantry support. And Naxx is an *outpost* of the Lich King's.


Sauron can corrupt them and bend them to his will
Not without beating the Lich King for control over them. You haven't provided enough evidence to show that it could happen; Sauron is frankly on a lower power level then the Lich King. You're the one who pointed out he's a Demigod, no? Demigods and other beings of their power die in rather large numbers when wars get serious in the WC universe.


And Lordaeron doesn't have evil magic, undead powers, hundreds of thousand s of people/monsters, and beats.
Actually, they had hundreds of thousands of people and beasts. And for efficiency, Holy vs. Unholy is drastically more efficient then Unholy vs. Unholy.


Skill? In the begining numbers? Orginization? Tatics? Debatable magic, sheer strength, compatence. Defensive
Organization? What's Sauron's? Tactics? I'm pretty sure the Lich King has gained a pretty darn good grasp of them, since he's been fighting in Hot Wars for about as long as Sauron has (Since Sauron hasn't /had/ many Hot Wars). Further, the Lich King has faced a variety of forces, and thus, a variety of approaches to war. Sauron only has experience with the seemingly undiverse tactics of the MIddle Earth Men and Elves. Numbers? They have the corpses of Lordaeron, and Northrend (Not many Humans/Dwarves.. but tons of Nerubians) on top of every Orcish casualty; Gargoyles are created and enchanted, I would assume. The Cult of the Damned, given that it draws from all of the races of Azeroth that weren't originating in Kalimdor, is likely bigger then Black Numenorians, a remnant of a dead country.

Why are only Sauron's defenses notable? Because I don't think Sauron can even /reach/ Northrend; He'd have to make it by ship. While I don't think Sauron or Nerzhy have great navies.. Nerzhy has a great /air force/, which Sauron really doesn't. He just has to break his botes while they're on the water, not kill the armies.

Once on Northrend, the going would get significantly easier for Sauron; In terms of actual fortifications, it's not quite as bad as the fortifications at Mordor, sure. But he'd have to get there and maintain a supply chain, which he's just not doing without flyers. An Air Force is a significant advantage.

For that matter, you asked how the plague could get into Mordor lands. I had written it off, but using the flyers as a sort of delivery system might work..

EvilElitest
2007-11-30, 11:34 PM
Uh, the paragraph structure didn't make it clear to you? They were dominated first, THEN became undead? While I don't actually doubt that you're correct in the end case of what happens to the others should the Lich King be whacked, that's not really germane; I have demonstrated to you why it is not just the undeath. Your counterpoints pretty much rely on a demonstrably incorrect view of how things work.

Ok it is a simple concept, the Lich King kills somebody, then he raises them with the power of the frozen throne. They are then bound to him, they have there own will, but can't control it and are forced to commited ahorrid actions for their master. This is how necromancy works. Should the source of the necromantic power be cut off (the lich king killed or his throne destroyed) then we have a problem but unless that they are bound to him by the necromantic magic. All of the other necromancers in the game work the same way. You quote only says that he can keep track and control his minions physically, that that it is through the raw power of his will


Provide counter-examples now, please. Prove to me that you're right. Even if you could shoot down every point I made (And you're frankly not), all you would be doing is bringing it back to the realm of ambiguity. You wouldn't be proving anything. Begin doing so now, please.
alright
Necromancer (http://www.wowwiki.com/Necromancer#Epic_Necromancer)
were in here does it say that necromancer use will power to control their slaves free will. The magic does it for them


...
Malor is not the subject of discussion. I'll try and explain this for you again. Aurius (http://www.wowwiki.com/Aurius) is in Stratholme, one of hte Lich King's bases. Aurius is a Paladin resisting the Lich King's corruption; See his line here: http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:The_Medallion_of_Faith
ok that is a lot clearer.

"The power of this chapel gives me the strength to resist the corruption in my heart. If I leave it, I will become a death knight."
Ummmmmm, why? I mean, there are no other examples of dude who are still alive suddenly becoming death knights? I think more detail is needed.


He is a living being, not even directly exposed to the Lich King's mind, who is facing the threat of becoming the Lich King's servant simply due to the corruption present; As a paladin, he is immune to the Plague, so no, it's not that.. By itself, this pretty much handles EVERY SINGLE CLAIM of you saying that it's "Just the undeath".
actually, we don't know it is corruption, that quote does not prove your point ether. If anything, it proves mine in that he is being corrupted by a curse or spell (my theory). Why would he become a death knight? Paladin have to voluntarily become death knights, and so i deduce he is cursed

paladin warriors who accede to the call of the Scourge and make a pact to serve the Lich King receive a vampiric runeblade specially crafted for them and are anointed by Nerzhul as one of his death knights. Thus the Lich King fashions his corrupted paladins: his greatest champions living or undead in his campaign to conquer all of Azeroth. To become a death knight, a Paladin must vow before Nerzhul (or one of his designates) to serve the Scourge, be accepted, and then receive a vampiric runeblade forged specifically for him.
it is a voulntary process, so no, it really doesn't prove you pont.


For that matter, any other former paladin (See: Four Horsemen) is equal proof, because /Paladins can not be raised as undead/ unless they renounce their paladinhood.
Acually, at least with the two examples you have sited, nether is willingly coruppted, both are killed and then raised

After Mograine's death, Kel'Thuzad resurrected the Highlord in his service, and both blade and wielder now serve the master of the Scourge in Lordaeron in the depths of Necropolis Naxxramas, until his corrupted form is destroyed by warriors in service of the alliance between the Crusade and the Argent Dawn.
in mograine back story says nothing about him wanting to serve the undead, and he is never tempted by the scourge (his son is)
And sir Zeliek certainly isn't a willing death knight, so it they seem to be undead slaves


....Okay, except not. He was a powerhungry SoB BECAUSE of Ner'Zhul. You're screwing up the order of operations. That's /how corruption works/. Lord almighty.
He was always ambitious, arrogent, and powerhungry. the lich king just feed his ambitious to the point of taking over his mind. But the evils were there, otherwise he wouldn't have been corrupted.

There were a handful of powerful individuals, scattered across the world, who heard the Lich King's mental summons from Northrend. Most notable of them was the Archmage Kel'Thuzad, of the magical nation of Dalaran. Kel'Thuzad, one of the senior members of the Kirin Tor Dalaran's ruling council had been considered a maverick for years due to his insistence on studying the forbidden arts of necromancy. Driven to learn all he could of the magical world and its shadowy wonders, he was frustrated by what he saw as his peers' outmoded and unimaginative precepts. Upon hearing the powerful summons from Northrend, the Archmage bent all of his considerable will to communing with the mysterious voice. Convinced that the Kirin Tor was too squeamish to seize the power and knowledge inherent in the dark arts, he vowed to learn what he could from the immensely powerful Lich King.
see? He hears the voice in his head after he dabbles in the art of necromancy and studys the forbiddon arts


Yeah, benath Sauron and hte Nazgul, sure. He's got more spellcasters on the Nazgul level then Sauron does, and he's got more Necromancers then Sauron's got Black Numenorians (I would think). I've also got good reason to believe his top casters beat out the Nazgul.
Other than Kel'thuzad who does he have who has nazgul powers?
as for number, Sauron seems to have only a small kindom of black numenorians but other caster within the ranks of easterlings, the haradrim, and the orcs



http://www.wowwiki.com/Necropolis_Naxxramas
Every boss there except maybe Noth is independently that powerful. That's pretty much how Warcraft works mechanically too; The heroes made or broke battles, armies were infantry support. And Naxx is an *outpost* of the Lich King's.

acually, it is kinda uncertain, because there has been no translation of the two games in terms of power



Not without beating the Lich King for control over them. You haven't provided enough evidence to show that it could happen;
Accually, the books states that he can bend evil creatures to his will, that he is a powerful necromancer, and that all evil creatures are drawn to him (without his ring mind you). So with his ring, i imagine any non-loyal or directly controled undead would be dominated by him.


Sauron s frankly on a lower power level then the Lich King. You're the one who pointed out he's a Demigod, no? Demigods and other beings of their power die in rather large numbers when wars get serious in the WC universe.
Quite frankly, simple wrong
1. Demi god is an oversimplification, he is one of the world's creatures
2. As powerful as the Lich King is, he is not a god, has never faced a god, or slain a god of any power level
3. Gods are weaker in Wow universe
4. The gods that are killed have nothing to do with the Lich King
5. The gods were mostly killed during the war of the ancients, up against millions of demons who had the power to destroy them, nothing to do with gods
6. The Lich king shown no god abilties of any kind, so how is he on a lower level than Sauron, even more so with Sauron's ring
from,
EE

warty goblin
2007-11-30, 11:43 PM
One point that I believe solves this entire thread: All evil beings below Sauron in the metaphysical hierarchy are bent to his will. Its a cannonical ability. The Lich King is not a demigod or above (in fact, he seems to be some combination of orc and human, correct me if I'm wrong, after the third name with as many apostrephes as vowels I can't keep them straight anymore) and is evil. Hence, he is bent to Sauron's will. Bada-bing.

The best part of it is that the Lich King might not even know it, Sauron's mental enslavement is subtle enough to force people to do his bidding without them realizing that it is happening. See Saruman and the various evil forces the world over. They all serve Sauron in the end without knowing it.

Edit: I think me and EE are basically getting at the same thing here.

EvilElitest
2007-11-30, 11:46 PM
One point that I believe solves this entire thread: All evil beings below Sauron in the metaphysical hierarchy are bent to his will. Its a cannonical ability. The Lich King is not a demigod or above (in fact, he seems to be some combination of orc and human, correct me if I'm wrong, after the third name with as many apostrephes as vowels I can't keep them straight anymore) and is evil. Hence, he is bent to Sauron's will. Bada-bing.
He is an orc, turned super lich, combined with an undead death knight

Oh an i found an example of the lich king's corruption that isn't through undeath, the cult of the dammed, though that might just be normal corruption through power rather than anything magical
from,
EE

warty goblin
2007-11-30, 11:59 PM
He is an orc, turned super lich, combined with an undead death knight

Oh an i found an example of the lich king's corruption that isn't through undeath, the cult of the dammed, though that might just be normal corruption through power rather than anything magical
from,
EE

So basically a mortal with a whack-load of templates slapped on? Definately ripe pickings for evil thing domination and nice comfy spot as Lord of Sauron's northern territories.

One more point to address the "no neutral powers" thing. Where did the Lich King get all his undead? The thing about undead is that they don't reproduce (or at least I hope not), hence they must be made by corrupting/killifying neutrals or enemies. Hence they exist and are fair game for pursuasion, or the Lich King doesn't actually have an army because he can't get it from nowhere. All Sauron needs for an army is two orcs, a liberal interpretation of incest (comes with being evil and all) and time. The Lich King needs nations to prey on. Given that he has an army and has thus been corrupting/killing/whatevering third parties, I would think that all Sauron would have to do is say:
"Yo, tired of waking up and realizing your wife is turning into a zombie? Oh she already looked like that huh? Well, how 'bout your son? Travels in the family. Figures, truly your wife's child him. Now your goat on the other hand, there's a case of zombification for you. That whole rotting flesh thing and the way its eating the heads off of your chickens. Bummer. Say, if you ally with me, we'll crunchify that undead dude, and your livestock will no longer be turned into zombies. Act now and we'll check into getting you a new wife too. Whatdoya say huh?"

EvilElitest
2007-12-01, 12:15 AM
So basically a mortal with a whack-load of templates slapped on? Definately ripe pickings for evil thing domination and nice comfy spot as Lord of Sauron's northern territories.

Well, yes acually. Certainly more dangerous, not to mention compatent than voldemort, but yes


One more point to address the "no neutral powers" thing. Where did the Lich King get all his undead? The thing about undead is that they don't reproduce (or at least I hope not), hence they must be made by corrupting/killifying neutrals or enemies. Hence they exist and are fair game for pursuasion, or the Lich King doesn't actually have an army because he can't get it from nowhere.
If we count him at the height of his power, he starts out with a lot of undead, unless.....
were are going with this.
All Sauron needs for an army is two orcs, a liberal interpretation of incest (comes with being evil and all) and time. The Lich King needs nations to prey on.


Given that he has an army and has thus been corrupting/killing/whatevering third parties, I would think that all Sauron would have to do is say:
"Yo, tired of waking up and realizing your wife is turning into a zombie? Oh she already looked like that huh? Well, how 'bout your son? Travels in the family. Figures, truly your wife's child him. Now your goat on the other hand, there's a case of zombification for you. That whole rotting flesh thing and the way its eating the heads off of your chickens. Bummer. Say, if you ally with me, we'll crunchify that undead dude, and your livestock will no longer be turned into zombies. Act now and we'll check into getting you a new wife too. Whatdoya say huh?"
I know that third parties are not allowed, but still, that is hilarous. Really funny, i can imagine Sauron wearing a salemen's outfit doing that
from,
EE

Cruxador
2007-12-01, 12:18 AM
Now that we know why Malor & friens aren't corrupted They're protected by a minor demon, if you didn't bother reading through the link we see that Arthas really has no hope of corrupting anything of Saurons, and will almost inevitably fall under Sauron's sway, as warty goblin says.

Just in case anyone feels like calling me a biased, or if Sauron taking corruptin Arthas directly is against 'da rules', I realize in straight up combat Arthas would win, be it one on one (discounting Sauron's immortality) or army vs. army, although he'd be extremely hardpressed in the latter case. The fact is, Sauron wouldn't be able to feed his army once they got into enemy territory.
Sauron's main power is the control he exerts, and it tips the scale. even regardless of whether he could take the grunts, he could take any thinking undead, thus vastly limiting Arthas' control over places. (I assume we all realize he uses lieutenants for controlling abroad).

I could debate any of either of the tou of you's points more directly, but I want to go to bed.

That said, assuming Arthas didn't go all Saruman ("we must fight Sauron" ... " No! We can't fight Sauron! I'm so corrupted I believe our only hope/best option is to join him!")
then Arthas would be quite possibly the most worthy adversary for Sauron.

Darkxarth
2007-12-01, 01:04 AM
I have read the entire thread up to this point, and I must say you are all making good points (mostly) about both the Lich King and Sauron.
EDIT: Had read, too much junk about minor characters from LotR and WarCraft now.

However, I don't want to be dragged into a multiple-page argument about tactics, willpower, the Silmarillion, what is and isn't WarCraft canon, etc., so my post will be my first and last.

Also, my post is entirely my opinion and has been formed on what I've read (LotR, WoWwiki, Silmarillion, a couple of Warcraft books) and played (WoW, Warcraft III).

1. Willpower: If it came down to a battle of wills (not over controlling Undead, but just a non-specific situation) I would have to give it to Sauron. He is the Master Manipulator and has spent a long time enforcing his will on other beings.

1a. However, if it came down to who could maintain control over the Lich King's forces, I would have to rule in the Lich King's favor.

2. Armies: In a battle of Sauron's forces (Mordor Orcs, Trolls, Easterlings, and Men of the South) versus the Lich King's forces (Zombies, Ghouls, Abominations, Banshees, Necromancers, Dragon Zombies, Crypt Fiends) I'd probably give it to the Lich King. Basically, it comes down to the Lich King's quality over Sauron's quantity. Yes, I know the Lich King can animate the dead and use them as reinforcements, but Orcs trump Zombies as far as I'm concerned. And Sauron's Trolls trump Abominations and Crypt Fiends. But let's face it, the Lord of the Ring's "subtle magic" is no match for an army of Warcraft Necromancers and Banshees. And frankly the Dragon Zombies (even if there are only a few of them) push the Lich King's army over the top of even Sauron's enormous forces.

3. Lieutenants: So, it's Kel'Thuzad versus the Witch King and the Lich King's Death Knights against the other Nazgul. I'd have to say that the individual Nazgul could each beat a Death Knight, and that the Witch King could beat Kel'Thuzad. But, if we take into account that the Lich King may have more than 8 Death Knights, the battle starts turning in his favor. The Nazgul are incredibly tough, but Death Knights wield magical weapons and I'd have to say that in a 2 on 1 battle (or even a 3 on 1 battle depending on how many Death Knights you think the Lich King might have) the Death Knights are probably a match for the 8 Nazgul. Even though the Witch King is significantly more powerful than Kel'Thuzad, I'd say that enough Death Knights (say, enough to kill off the other 8 Nazgul?) could overwhelm him. And in reference to the "No man can kill me," they are technically Undead, and no longer real Men.

3a. If the Nazgul are mounted on the Fell Beasts, however, the battle quickly turns in their favor, and only an arbitrarily large number of Death Knights (enough to make the battle ridiculous) could take them down.

4. Personal Combat: In a straight battle of the Lich King versus Sauron, I'd have to give the battle to the Lich King. Though Sauron is basically invincible with his ring, it has been shown that a sufficiently magical sword can cut it off, and I'd say that Frostmourne probably qualifies. In which case, the Lich King and his magicians hold off Sauron's spirit for long enough to destroy the One Ring.

So, it seems like the Lich King wins hands-down. Or does he?

It seems very likely that Sauron will attempt to turn Kel'Thuzad to his cause, which I'd wager he could do without too much difficulty. This done, the Witch King can now devote his full attention to stopping the Death Knights from killing the other Nazgul (and of course the newly converted Kel'Thuzad is ready to assist). That's assuming Sauron doesn't have them riding the Fell Beasts (which he likely would since he knows they're being sent into an epic battle, and don't need to look like creepy guys on horseback) in which case the Nazgul whoop the Death Knights, and then proceed to take down the Dragon Zombies, while the Witch King and Kel'Thuzad counter the Banshees and Necromancers. Thus, giving Sauron's superior numbers the edge to overwhelm the Lich King's forces.

Even if the Lich King's forces somehow manage to overwhelm Sauron's forces, there's always a chance (ranging from "not bloody likely!" to "seems pretty reasonable to me") that the Lich King is tempted to use the One Ring for himself, in which case Sauron wins again because his willpower trumps the Lich King's.

Executor
2007-12-01, 01:21 AM
.
Organization? What's Sauron's? Tactics? I'm pretty sure the Lich King has gained a pretty darn good grasp of them, since he's been fighting in Hot Wars for about as long as Sauron has (Since Sauron hasn't /had/ many Hot Wars). Further, the Lich King has faced a variety of forces, and thus, a variety of approaches to war. Sauron only has experience with the seemingly undiverse tactics of the MIddle Earth Men and Elves. Numbers? They have the corpses of Lordaeron, and Northrend (Not many Humans/Dwarves.. but tons of Nerubians) on top of every Orcish casualty; Gargoyles are created and enchanted, I would assume. The Cult of the Damned, given that it draws from all of the races of Azeroth that weren't originating in Kalimdor, is likely bigger then Black Numenorians, a remnant of a dead country.

Why are only Sauron's defenses notable? Because I don't think Sauron can even /reach/ Northrend; He'd have to make it by ship. While I don't think Sauron or Nerzhy have great navies.. Nerzhy has a great /air force/, which Sauron really doesn't. He just has to break his botes while they're on the water, not kill the armies.

Once on Northrend, the going would get significantly easier for Sauron; In terms of actual fortifications, it's not quite as bad as the fortifications at Mordor, sure. But he'd have to get there and maintain a supply chain, which he's just not doing without flyers. An Air Force is a significant advantage.

For that matter, you asked how the plague could get into Mordor lands. I had written it off, but using the flyers as a sort of delivery system might work..

Lich King knows tactics better than Sauron? Ummm NO! Sauron is older than the universe. He's fought in the greatest wars Arda has ever seen. He fought the Noldor during the War of the Jewels, the Valar during the War of Wrath, the Numenoreans at the beginning of the Second Age, the Elves again during the War of Elves and Sauron, the Elves and the Numenoreans in the War of the Last Alliance and the Men of the West in the War of the Ring. I believe he has more experience. He was only outright defeated by force of arms twice, by the godlike Numenoreans and by the alliance of Numenoreans and Elves. The Elves never defeated him during the War of the Jewels, and managed to escape the Valar during the War of Wrath. He outright obliterated Eregion during the War of Elves and Sauron and very nearly defeated the Men of the West in the War of the Ring. I also believe he commanded Morgoth's forces during the Fall of Gondolin and other such battles. He's been fighting since the universe was born. Definetely longer than the Lich King.

How are the fortifications of Mordor bad? Sauron literally erected two mountain ranges to protect his land. The only passes are defended by near-impregnable fortresses. Minas Morgul is Minas Tirith's twin magnified by the black magic of the Witch-king and other such nastiness. The Black Gate needs no introduction, and Cirith Ungol is respectable in it's own regard. Once past these bastions, you must cross the Vale of Gorgoroth, a stinking desert infested by millions of bloodthirsty orcs and trolls. The very weather is controlled by Sauron's will. By day he will scorch the invader and by night he will freeze them. Orodruin will rain fire and ash upon any enemy army. Barad-dur is the greatest fortress raised since Angband. Tolkien describes as inestimately high and immeasurably strong. Wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, tower upon tower, rising up in a great spike of steel and adamant, that is inpregnable. The Last Alliance, the greatest army the world had seen since the Host of the Noldor during the First Age, besieged this fortress for seven years and could not breach it. Its building took six hundred years, it is so large that viewing it is surreal, brave men quail at the sight of it, and the only place Sauron's will gets any stronger is Orodruin. Icecrown Glacier make be formidable, but Barad-dur is invincible.

Rutee
2007-12-01, 01:40 AM
You know what? Never mind. You guys are completely right. Lolzsauronwins.

Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Agamaggan) Entities (http://www.wowwiki.com/Malorne) can't (http://www.wowwiki.com/Aviana) kill (http://www.wowwiki.com/Ursol_and_Ursoc) Demigods, (http://www.wowwiki.com/Cenarius) Gods, (http://www.wowwiki.com/C%27Thun) or other (http://www.wowwiki.com/Neltharion) Deities. (http://www.wowwiki.com/Sargeras)

In fact, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valkyrie_Profile:_Lenneth) Deities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisar_Ephes) never, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldur) ever (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/pda/A762374?s_id=3) die (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhaal) in Fantasy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_War_%28video_game%29)

Rowanomicon
2007-12-01, 03:22 AM
This really comes down to the same thing I said at the beginning of the S vs V thread:

The only way to defeat Sauron is to destroy The Ring.
If the Lich King (or any of his servants) even came into possession of the ring it would work it's voodoo on them even faster than it did on poor Smeagol.

I'm hoping this thread doesn't turn into the gimp-fest that had to happen in order for people (ie. Ditto) to remain under the delusion that Voldy had a chance. If you need to discount some of Sauron's powers then you are admitting the Lich King's loss.

Also I would say that between weakening the LK's mental control, converting "wicked creatures," and seducing/corrupting the LK's guys (or maybe even the LK himself) with rings Sauron would be able to gain a massive advantage. (No the nine rings are not grafted to the Nazgul.)
All he has to do is hold his position (Mordor is very defendable) while he destroy's LK's power from within.

Artemician
2007-12-01, 03:34 AM
You know what? Never mind. You guys are completely right. Lolzsauronwins.

Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Agamaggan) Entities (http://www.wowwiki.com/Malorne) can't (http://www.wowwiki.com/Aviana) kill (http://www.wowwiki.com/Ursol_and_Ursoc) Demigods, (http://www.wowwiki.com/Cenarius) Gods, (http://www.wowwiki.com/C%27Thun) or other (http://www.wowwiki.com/Neltharion) Deities. (http://www.wowwiki.com/Sargeras)

In fact, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valkyrie_Profile:_Lenneth) Deities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisar_Ephes) never, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldur) ever (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/pda/A762374?s_id=3) die (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhaal) in Fantasy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_War_%28video_game%29)

Indeed.

The onus here.. is not whether Sauron is in fact a Maiar (and hence powerful). It is whether the Lich King is more powerful than Sauron, and hence can beat him.

And as to that question...

Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde, the marshalls of the Burning Legion, consider )or considered, in the case of Archimonde) Ner'zhul to be a big threat. How big a threat they consider him, is never really told to us. Of course, the fact that they tried, and failed to delay Arthas' ascension to the Lich King has to mean something. They're worried about him: he's out of their control.

And given that we're talking about Archimonde (http://www.wowwiki.com/Archimonde) and Kil'Jaeden (http://www.wowwiki.com/Kil'Jaeden), who basically between them were responsible for the deaths or corruption of most of the Gods and Demigods presented above by Rutee...

Of course, now I'm talking about how powerful the Lich King is, not comparing. However, this provides a nice reference point. Ner'zhul is no weakling.

Selrahc
2007-12-01, 09:14 AM
When does Arthas get zeppelins after his transformation into an undead

Plenty of times. The scourge gets a specific undead zeppelin model in the campaign. In certain levels (Such as when attempting to rescue Tyrande, the priestess of the moon in the Frozen Throne campaign) the undead send dozens of zeppelins filled with troops at you.

The undead have a force of zeppelins for air transportation.


He doesn't have a that many Frost Wyrms.

Frost wyrms are the equivalent of Nazguls on Fel Beasts, in terms of raw power. They also are a damn sight better than Nazguls in terms of butchering large numbers of troops.

Large numbers of frost wyrms are used throughout the campaign. Arthas has access to a very large number of dragon corpses from his conquest of the orc tribes(Who deployed lots and lots of red dragons), and from the destruction of the dragon population across Northrend and Lordaeron(As well as all the naturally occuring dragon corpses from throughout history that he could find)

Maybe you are working on a different definition of large numbers, but I think there are at least several hundred, with numbers perhaps reaching several thousand. I'm not sure what you call a large number, but when talking about undead dragons I would define any number above say... 50 as a large number. Especially when Saurons only counter to them is 9 Ringwraiths.



Now Sauron can counter with
Dragons (if we count him during the first age)
Vampires

We're obviously not taking him during the first age. Because Sauron wasn't boss in the first age.


the weather (can make flying tough)

The undead are used to flying around in northrend. Constant snowstorms and raging winds. He'd have to be send ing in hurricanes to inconvenience them.


nine immortal flying undead wizard kings

Hah. Well, if I were Arthas I'd send dozens of destroyers after them. Immune to magic, capable of devouring enchantments and ripping apart enemies.

Back them up with a few dozen dragons(Who are also resistant/immune to magic), and a few hundred gargoyles. and you crush those Ringwraiths easy.



His own magic

I don't think its the greatest use of Saurons powers to be standing around as an anti air turret. All Arthas has to do is use scouts. An undead raven or swallow. Or a gargoyle.


domination of will

Speaking of which, how does Arthas control Gargoyoles? I would imagine that sauron could dominate them.

I'm thinking this is way overplayed. If Sauron was capable of dominatiing peoples wills on this level, then how did an alliance ever come top being against him? How did Elendil and Isildur stand against him, rather than turning on each other? How did an army march without dozens of their own numbers turning traitor at every step?

As it was portrayed in the main body of lord of the rings, it was a gradual gnawing corruption, rather than an instant takeover of wills. It served at best, as a minor disruption. Against the undead, it would serve as even less. I know he was at far less power then, but it just doesn't make sense that elves and men could raise an army against him if he could do what you're suggesting.


Tech that to date, i've never seen him use.

Hmm.. true.


True, but lesser casters.

In some cases, yes. But he has a lot of powerful heroes too.



Who? Kel'zhuad is the only one i can think of


Thousands and thousands of lesser necromancers, backing up powerful Necromancers. The scourge did not only consist of the four heroes you play as in the campaign. As the World of Warcraft links show, Arthas has dozens of Death Knights, Liches and other assorted uber minions. Many of whom are at least as powerful as ringwraiths.

The shamans and magic users of the Lich Kings orcs joined him in undeath. An army of paladins became death knights. The rulers of the vast empire of the nerubians became crypt lords.


orc beats zombie

No. Orc is lightly armoured, poorly armed, squabble frequently, ahve poor morale if not watched by Sauron, and are physically inferior to regular humans.

Ghouls on the other hand, are equivalent to heavily armed and armoured humans. They feel no pain. They are stronger. They never fall back. They run faster than people. They knit their flesh back together, and they can eat the dead to do so faster.

Ghoul beats orc by a long way.


How many men does the Lich King have? does he really start out with a number advantage.

Most of the orcs, humans, elves, trolls, dwarves, goblins, gnomes, murguls, and other assorted humanoids in Lordaeron. A sick old lady becomes an effective warrior after being undeaded, so vast numbers can be quickly created and taken.



That requires his guys to eat the food, if you mean the tainted meat.

Ah, so Saurons master plan is to protect his men from the plague, by having them starve to death.

The plague took hold in the food supplies across Lordaeron.


As for the normal plauge, bear in mind Sauron knows about plauges he realized one on gonder, so i assume that he can protect his troops

Thats an incredibly large assumption. One with which I do not agree.

Saying that because he unleashed one plague, means that he knows how to cure all plagues is completely unsupported.


How? You need to get past the black gate to get to his farms.

The nerubians could easily get through the mountains. Sending a few zeppelins would also work. As would sending other flying units.



And Lordaeron doesn't have evil magic, undead powers, hundreds of thousand s of people/monsters, and beats.

Evil magic is not a good way of healing people. That was my point really, the holy forces are great at curing diseases, the unholy are great at unleashing them. But Saurons foes don't succumb to illness, and he isn't a holy warrior who can cure the plague with his sheer shining goodness.


Skill?

Negligible at best. Your average orc isn't a skilled fighter. And the elite forces of the undead have at least equal skill to the elite forces of Sauron.


In the begining numbers?

No way. Definitely not.


Orginization? Tatics?

Not really. Both forces are magically bound together by dark overlords with an enormous degree of mental control. Both forces then rely on skilled generals to micromanage situations. Organization is identical.

Tactics are about equal too. Strategy I would say Arthas has the edge, since he actually used his giant forces to his advantage and went from a position of having a few cultists, to toppling two great empires and ravaging a continent, then becoming the greatest force in the world. Sauron couldn't even kill a few city states, with a vast numbers advantage.


sheer strength, compatence. Defensive

Arthas has been vastly more competent. And has more sheer strength of arms. Sauron has better defences, but thats negated by the vast number of ways Arthas can overcome them.

He can rip the black gates to shreds with thousands of dragons. He can smash them to fragments with powerful magics. Or he could just fly over them.


Ignore the personal influence of Sauron and Arthas for a minute. Then compare their armies. In my opinion at least the Scourge is a vastly superior fighting force.

I don't think Sauron makes a signifgant enough difference, unless you take the view that he automatically mentally dominates Arthas.

warty goblin
2007-12-01, 09:44 AM
Again, if the Lich King has an army, it assumes the existance of third party actors because the undead need living to create more of them. If there's no third parties, there's no way for the Lich King to get an army. I'm assuming that the Warcraft side wants their dude to have an army, hence there are neutrals. I'm perfectly happy with these being neutral at the start, within about three weeks they'll all by fighting for Sauron anyway.

There's a reason that Sauron didn't dominate the Last Alliance, they were elves, dwarves and the best of the Numenorians. Elves are pretty much immune to corruption by nature, the Numenorians get most of this from their elven blood, although they can be corrupted- see Black Numenorians. Those left to join the Alliance had already had all of the weakness winnowed out of them. Dwarves again are almost completely immune to corruption, although Sauron did manage to sway a very few of them.

To say that Sauron's corruption is a slow and gradual thing I think is selling him way way short. He turned the Dead Men of Dunharrow against Isildur without even making contact with them. He also convinced over half of the human world to fight for him- the only states that resisted were Rohan and Gondor, both of which he came darn close to toppling from the inside out. If Gandalf hadn't cured Theoden, the Rohirrim would never have rallied and come to Pelennor Fields and Sauron would have won that battle. It might not be instantanious, but let's face it, he's pretty darn good at getting people to do what he wants and either giving them no choice but to do what he wants(the trick with Numenor and the Valar), or make them think that they are not doing his will.

Look at it this way, every single evil deed done throughout LOTR aids Sauron directly or indirectly. Bill Ferny, Boromir's betrayel, Saruman's double betrayal, Denethor's madness, the list goes on. Any time people respond with anything but courage and rightousness, he's winning. Now forgive me, but an army of the dead does not seem like a bastion of rightousness. Hence even if its most powerful members can avoid being turned (dubious,they wouldn't know it was happening), every lower entity would be.

Selrahc
2007-12-01, 10:13 AM
Again, if the Lich King has an army, it assumes the existance of third party actors because the undead need living to create more of them. If there's no third parties, there's no way for the Lich King to get an army. I'm assuming that the Warcraft side wants their dude to have an army, hence there are neutrals. I'm perfectly happy with these being neutral at the start, within about three weeks they'll all by fighting for Sauron anyway.


Arthas takes the forces he already has with him to fight this war. The same way Sauron does. Ignore all other people.

Theres a simple reason for that. If you try and take into account all the factions, and heroes and forces across the entire Warcraft and Lord of the Rings universes, the entire scenario becomes a farce. Its not the forces of Sauron against the Lich king, its the forces of Warcraft against the Lich King.

I'm doubting they would all ally against Arthas anyway. The people left in the Warcraft universe are mostly the types who would unite against both evil dark lords.


There's a reason that Sauron didn't dominate the Last Alliance, they were elves, dwarves and the best of the Numenorians.

The Lich King is a singularly wilful being. If being an elf/dwarf/elite human/maiar is enough to make you immune to his corruption, then I don't see how Arthas or his generals are going to succumb.

Remember, the Heroes in Warcraft are exceptional individuals, who are thus immune to mind influencing effects, and innately resistant to magic. As standard. Arthas is far beyond a standard hero, he has magical defences up the wazoo, hes a spellcaster of an insane power, and has an unshakable will.

If the numenorians were immune, Arthas should be too. And so should his generals. They are all exceptional individuals.

Now, I do think that Sauron could get some corruption going on. Maybe turn a few generals traitor, but it wouldn't be a quick process, and it wouldn't have a very big effect. The better generals, like Kel Thuzad, are too loyal, and have too much of the Lich Kings will backing them up.

Arthas himself would have to experience drastic mental change, and turn on everything he stands for and literally embodies in order for corruption to have any effect.


He turned the Dead Men of Dunharrow against Isildur without even making contact with them.

Disloyal bandits, not motivated well rewarded exceptionally powerful and loyal elite warriors.

The main body of the force are utterly without will. So can't be corrupted(Although he could possibly usurp control, at close ranges. But I think the necromancers of the scourge would be resisting that)



Look at it this way, every single evil deed done throughout LOTR aids Sauron directly or indirectly. Bill Ferny, Boromir's betrayel, Saruman's double betrayal, Denethor's madness, the list goes on. Any time people respond with anything but courage and rightousness, he's winning. Now forgive me, but an army of the dead does not seem like a bastion of rightousness. Hence even if its most powerful members can avoid being turned (dubious,they wouldn't know it was happening), every lower entity would be.

We were watching the allied camp. If an orc murders another orc, that is an evil deed, but it is one which does not help Sauron. If there is a squabble for leadership among his followers, then that is another evil thing which does not help Sauron. When his troops turned and ran after his defeat by the last alliance, that is an evil(cowardly) act, and is one which does not help Sauron. When Gollum attacked Frodo to steal the ring, that was an evil act and it was one which definitely didn't help Sauron.

If Arthas raises a hundred orcs as zombies, that is an evil act and it doesn't help Sauron. If his forces rip through the countryside, slaughtering innocents and raising them as undead, that is an evil act and it doesn't help sauron. If Arthas burns the farms of Mordor, or kills the innocents in the lands of the evil men, or does any number of evil acts, he will be helping his forces not Saurons.

Evil is not always a good thing for Sauron.

warty goblin
2007-12-01, 10:29 AM
I think you missed the essense of my point- its not about personal willpower. Sauron corrupts and eventually controls everybody that is covotous of power, long life, forbiddon knowledge or similar. It's not that he wins some great mental war against them, by dint of what they do they fall under his control.

The elves, men and dwarves of the Last Alliance did not fall under his corruption because they were not seeking power. Courage and selflessness are the only defenses that are ever effective. Heck, even the squabble during the Council of Elrond and the Fellowship's difficulty getting into Lorien are attributed to Sauron, and those were hardly great acts of selfishness and evil. Commanding armies of darkness is however, and would lead their commander into Sauron's thrall.

Orc kill each other because its what they do. It also minimizes overcrowding while ensuring that only the strongest and most cunning survive. Sounds like a deal to me.

Defeated troops fleeing after Sauron is defeated. Well, at that point they could stay and fight, or run and fight and be evil and successful another day. The will that was leading them was also broken, in the case of the Olag-Hai they literally couldn't keep fighting since they had lost their minds.

Artemician
2007-12-01, 10:38 AM
I think you missed the essense of my point- its not about personal willpower. Sauron corrupts and eventually controls everybody that is covotous of power, long life, forbiddon knowledge or similar. It's not that he wins some great mental war against them, by dint of what they do they fall under his control.

An interesting statement. Before I continue with my response, could you answer this quick question of mine? It will determine how my next point goes.

Q: If.. let's say, Morgoth as he was in the first age happened to lust for power, knowledge, etc. would he therefore fall under the control of Sauron, his first lieatenant?

Cruxador
2007-12-01, 11:07 AM
The Lich King is a singularly wilful being. If being an elf/dwarf/elite human/maiar is enough to make you immune to his corruption, then I don't see how Arthas or his generals are going to succumb.

Many of these also had their own rings, and many were close to falling anyway.


Remember, the Heroes in Warcraft are exceptional individuals, who are thus immune to mind influencing effects, and innately resistant to magic. As standard. Arthas is far beyond a standard hero, he has magical defences up the wazoo, hes a spellcaster of an insane power, and has an unshakable will.

If the numenorians were immune, Arthas should be too. And so should his generals. They are all exceptional individuals.

but they pursue power and feel negative emotions, and so are vulnerable


Now, I do think that Sauron could get some corruption going on. Maybe turn a few generals traitor, but it wouldn't be a quick process, and it wouldn't have a very big effect. The better generals, like Kel Thuzad, are too loyal, and have too much of the Lich Kings will backing them up.

The Lich king wouldn't know. And he arguably ccouldn't back them up through willpower even if he did.


Arthas himself would have to experience drastic mental change, and turn on everything he stands for and literally embodies in order for corruption to have any effect.

Not necessarily, but even if 'what he stands for' is entirely incompatible with what Sauron wants it's happened before (for a well known example, see Saruman)


The main body of the force are utterly without will. So can't be corrupted(Although he could possibly usurp control, at close ranges. But I think the necromancers of the scourge would be resisting that)

Most of the forces are controlled through said necromancers, and necromancers are subject to control. Even if they are controlled directly, Arthas is subject to control

EDIT: uber ninja'd
@Artemician: No, Morgoth was higher up on the divine hierarchy/had more raw power (there is some debate over which is relevant)

ANTI-DOUBLE POST EDIT:
about the plague=starve to death thing, we know orcs can survive for quite some time on very little food, because very little is what they were getting before the battle of gondor (due to dramatic overpopulation)

Ditto
2007-12-01, 11:17 AM
O come on guyz, you kno that VOldemort would just come in and Avada Kadavra both of them dead. LOLZ

>_>

Artemician
2007-12-01, 11:25 AM
Many of these also had their own rings, and many were close to falling anyway.

Unless you're telling us that every single one of the entire army had a ring forged for the, I highly doubt it. Rings of Power are no small matters to be forged, even lesser Rings.


but they pursue power and feel negative emotions, and so are vulnerable

They may be vulnerable, but whether they will fall ultimately is a matter of debate. Just because something is possible does not necessarily mean it will happen.


The Lich king wouldn't know. And he arguably ccouldn't back them up through willpower even if he did.

Why wouldn't he know? He's mentally connected to every single one of his subjects.


Not necessarily, but even if 'what he stands for' is entirely incompatible with what Sauron wants it's happened before (for a well known example, see Saruman)

Yes necessarily, in fact. Saruman was misguided into thinking that he could fight Sauron, when in fact he was merely doing Sauron's dirty work. This was possible because the Rohirrim and the Gondorites were mutual enemies of Sauron and Saruman. in this case, the Lich King and Sauron are confronting each other directly. Defeating Sauron is his only goal, and in the absence of third parties, Ner'zhul cannot be tricked in the same way Saruman was.


Most of the forces are controlled through said necromancers, and necromancers are subject to control. Even if they are controlled directly, Arthas is subject to control

Agreed on the first point, but the second is doubtful, and up for debate at the moment.


@Artemician: No, Morgoth was higher up on the divine hierarchy/had more raw power (there is some debate over which is relevant)

The Lich King has arguably more raw power than Sauron, which would render him immune to Sauron's machinations, in the same way that it renders Morgoth immune.



about the plague=starve to death thing, we know orcs can survive for quite some time on very little food, because very little is what they were getting before the battle of gondor (due to dramatic overpopulation)

We don't know that.. they could simply be really, really good farmers. Volcanic ash makes for a very fertile area, and just because Tolkien did not bring up farms does not mean they do not exist.

Plus, even if you can subsist on little, you will be hard-pressed to subsist on none, which will be the scenario if the granaries are affected with the plague. One can live off stored food, or imports, but stored food runs out eventually, and Sauron has completely sealed off his borders in any case.

Artemician
2007-12-01, 11:28 AM
O come on guyz, you kno that VOldemort would just come in and Avada Kadavra both of them dead. LOLZ

>_>

Arthas/Ner'zhul is, as his name suggests, the Lich King. Does Avada Kedavra work on people who are already dead? :smalltongue:

warty goblin
2007-12-01, 11:32 AM
O come on guyz, you kno that VOldemort would just come in and Avada Kadavra both of them dead. LOLZ

>_>

Convert now and win extra cookies!

As to why Morgoth didn't serve Sauron back in the day, the answer is simple. Morgoth was the most powerful god, and also the most evil being ever to exist. Hence all evil served him. When Morgoth was exiled, all evil instead served Sauron.

Executor
2007-12-01, 11:47 AM
Considering his own experience in war, and considering the superior disposition of the Lich King's forces, Sauron could win by playing defensively. And I think he'd know that.

Imagine this scenario: The undead armies of the Lich King have broken through or flown over all of Mordor's defenses. They've crossed the Gorgoroth, and now all of Sauron's forces, from the Nazgul to the pettiest orc, are confined in Barad-dur. It is the greatest fortress he has ever seen, so high that you cannot see its topmost tower except from a great distance away, and surrounded by an enormous chasm so deep that the Last Alliance never managed to sound it in a seven year siege. There is only one bridge across this chasm, and it leads up to a gate of formidable strength. With every assault, Arthas loses more ghouls, more zombies, more skeletons. He cannot starve the defenders out, the Last Alliance never did, whether Barad-dur is resupplied by a secret tunnel, or by air, or by magic, you will never take it by starvation. Everywhere there is the oppressive will of Sauron, working it's slow, gnawing corruption on the leaders of the Undead. Days turn into weeks, weeks turn into months, months turn into years and still Arthas can do nothing to the Dark Tower. His Dread Lords, his Lichs, his Crypt Lords and his Death Knights are slowly abandoning his Scourge for Sauron's army, as his corruption works its magic. Arthas can do nothing to topple the Barad-dur, and Sauron can sit tight and wait, and absorb every assault, and fight a war of attrition. Eventually, Arthas will lose, as his army is powerless against Barad-dur's defenses.

Selrahc
2007-12-01, 12:03 PM
In that situation Arthas has an awful lot of options to get into the fortress.

1. Dragons. Lots and lots of dragons. Swarm the fortress with them.
2. Offensive magic, being balsted across the cavern. The walls would be unsafe to any defenders, lest they have thier souls ripped asunder by necromancy, or their bodies ripped assunder by frsot magics.
3. Nerubians. giant bridges of spider web would criss cross the cavern. Assaults would take place on Saurons forces by elite spider warriors.
4. The killing and raising of forces within the fortress.
5. The possibility of leading elite heroes into the fortress.
6. Abominations ripping the gate to shreds.
7. A horrible plague killing off the vast swathes of enemy troops.
8. Frost magic. The creation of bridges across the chasm out of ice. Sustained through the magics of the liches.

I don't think turtling would work.

Artemician
2007-12-01, 12:12 PM
In that situation Arthas has an awful lot of options to get into the fortress.
<snip>
I don't think turtling would work.

Indeed. It didn't. Even though the Last Alliance of Men and Elves had none of the many options under the Lich King's disposal, they nonetheless succeeded in driving Sauron out of Barad-Dur, to do battle with them on the plain of Dagorlad.

Oh, and you forgot one more thing, Selrahc: the Lich King, in addition to numerous corporeal undead, is also in command of incorporeal undead, like Banshees. They could simply float through the walls and wreck havoc on Sauron's army.

WalkingTarget
2007-12-01, 12:23 PM
A few points that have occurred to me as I've gone over posts since I last looked.

1. Tolkien and Fire vs. Ice: I know that he's not the same as Sauron, but Morgoth was god/valar/power of (among other things) bitter cold and scorching heat, so they're not mutually exclusive in the Arda mythology. All of Morgoth's First Age strongholds (and therefore Sauron was there often) were in the far north (far enough to be off of the maps we have) and were, in theory at least, in cold regions. We don't actually see much in the way of elemental rock-paper-scissors in Tolkien. Gandalf vs. Durin's Bane = wielder of the Ring of Fire vs. a being of shadow and flame. Sauron's Second Age defeat = Elf with a spear called "snow-point" dies and we hear nothing more of the weapon and a human with a sword called "white flame" who dies, but this is the weapon that is remembered/preserved (and indeed, is reforged to fight the same enemy under the name "flame of the west"). Both cases are fire vs. fire. Of course, the explanation I've seen on the spear's name were that it would leave you cold in death, not that it had any cold-related powers itself, so it's more of a symbolic struggle there.

2. Hate to say it, but Sauron did not raise the mountains around Mordor. He chose that land because it was very defensible and had a handy volcano. Morgoth raised the mountains of Thangorodrim, but Sauron isn't shown to do any major geography-altering earthworks.

3. Mortality of gods/demigods: In the Warcraft setting, it seems that beings that are classified as deities are mortal (like the Norse gods). In Tolkien the Valar/Maiar are not mortal. The Big Bads are reduced in personal power eventually due to their investment of themselves into the fabric of the universe (read that as, all of the evils in the world, even as it exists today, is due to the influence of these beings regardless of the fact that it's not being personally directed by them), but they are still far from "killable" in the literal meaning of the word. The fact that various other mythologies include deities that can be killed doesn't mean that all of them do. This doesn't mean that it's an easy fight for Sauron, the fact that the LK can kill beings on that level is impressive, but taking it to mean that he'll automatically be able to do the same to beings that are literally immortal is a stretch at best.

I've realized I can't really get into this debate at a basic level since I don't know much of the lore in the Warcraft universe and don't have the time to read through it all just at the moment. I'll confine myself to clarifying points from Tolkien.

warty goblin
2007-12-01, 12:28 PM
Its strongly implied that at least in Minas Morgul, its most terrible and powerful defenders are some sort of spirit thingy. Spirit thingies notably don't need food, sleep or rest of any kind. They also don't get sick. I see no reason why similarly potent beings wouldn't defend Barad-Dur.

Dragons aren't a problem, that's what storms are for, and storms are easy to get if you control the weather, I wonder how well rotting dragons survive gail force winds and hailstones the size of golf balls...nothing says "aerodynamically impaired" like having you wings reduced to shreds at 500 feet.

Soul stripping magic also isn't a problem, evil spirits don't have souls, and whether or not orcs do is an open question (Tolkein himself was undecided). Either way, Sauron shuts down magic in his vicinity (see: Vial of Galadrial, one of the more potent artifacts ever created).

Same for Ice bridges, good luck getting those cast through Sauron's will, even better luck keeping the ends from being melted by the defenders and causing the whole thing to collapse. Also, building an ice bridge up against a sheer wall hundred if not thousands of feet high strikes me as somewhat...useless.

Executor
2007-12-01, 12:38 PM
Bridges of Ice: Sauron is a fire spirit. While water douses fire, fire melts ice. Simple facts. And I don't think ice will last very long in the volcanic desert that is Mordor.

Offensive magic: All nine Nazgul, plus all the Black Numenoreans, plus Sauron himself, makes a potent counterspelling force. In the Sauron vs Voldemort thread, we extrapolated that LOTR magic is Mind over Matter. One mage is willing the universe to do one thing, the other is willing the universe to do something else. Basically "This will happen" "No it WON'T" and whoever has the stronger will is the victor. In Moria, the Balrog's counterspell on the door of the Chamber of Mazarbul almost broke Gandalf's mind and collapsed most of the cavern around them. Sauron is more powerful than a Balrog.

Nerubians: Sauron has experience dealing with giant spiders. Shelob lives on his borders, and her and her monstrous brood could very well be persuaded to serve him

Raising new undead from within Barad-dur: Do you really think that Sauron, who is himself a powerful necromancer, will allow you to raise more forces from his own dead? How close does Arthas' necromancers have to be to raise a corpse? Have you forgotten Sauron's casters, the Nazgul and Black Numenoreans, counterspelling the casters of the Lich King? There is also the very real possibility of the Orcs being immortal, since they are, at heart, Elves.

Leading heroes into Barad-dur: How? Tunneling is impossible due to the chasm, the sheer height of the walls along with the very real possibility of thousands of orcish archers make flying over a struggle, and at last I checked, the Undead didn't have any unit that casts Mass Teleportation.

Abominations against the Gate: Forcing the Gate of Barad-dur is not possible, even by Abominations. Every foot you take across the bridge, missiles will rain down on your from the towers above. Arrows, stones, javelins, fiery projectiles from mighty catapults. The gate itself is made of steel and adamant, immeasurably strong. Even if you do break it down, behind it you will find all Nine Nazgul, the Mouth of Sauron, most of the Black Numenoreans, thousands of orcs, uruks, trolls and Olog-hai and Sauron himself. A direct assault upon the gate is not practical.

The Plague: At last I checked, the plague depended on infected foodsources, correct? So, Arthas catapults some slabs of infected meat across the chasm. The orcs just don't eat them. They may be stupid but they're not that stupid. Besides, Barad-dur is already somehow provisioned from within. I don't believe the Plague will effect Sauron too much.

And you're wrong about the Last Alliance. Sauron was not forced out, he emerged by his own decision, to fight the Last Alliance on the slopes of Orodruin, where his power was strongest due to the forging of the One. The Last Alliance also brought the Three Elven-rings as bait to lure him out. He very well could've remained in Barad-dur indefinetely.

Selrahc
2007-12-01, 12:40 PM
Dragons aren't a problem, that's what storms are for, and storms are easy to get if you control the weather, I wonder how well rotting dragons survive gail force winds and hailstones the size of golf balls

Very well, since their natural habitat is Northrend, land of freezing storms.

Gargoyles are made of rock. Destroyers are beings of energy. Zeppelins have armour plating.



Soul stripping magic also isn't a problem, evil spirits don't have souls, and whether or not orcs do is an open question (Tolkein himself was undecided). Either way, Sauron shuts down magic in his vicinity (see: Vial of Galadrial, one of the more potent artifacts ever created).

And destroyers shut down and consume magic of the enemy.

And if its a combat without magic, my money is on the force that isn't inside the fortress constructed on foundations of magic.



Same for Ice bridges, good luck getting those cast through Sauron's will, even better luck keeping the ends from being melted by the defenders and causing the whole thing to collapse. Also, building an ice bridge up against a sheer wall hundred if not thousands of feet high strikes me as somewhat...useless.

I think the fact that Sauron is outnumbered by at least 100 to 1 in numbers of spellcasters, means hes going to get overwhelmed.

And you build an ice bridge across, in order to get at and rip up the walls. More entrances. More places to put your numbers advantage to bear. More corpses to animate.



Its strongly implied that at least in Minas Morgul, its most terrible and powerful defenders are some sort of spirit thingy. Spirit thingies notably don't need food, sleep or rest of any kind. They also don't get sick. I see no reason why similarly potent beings wouldn't defend Barad-Dur.

Spirits aren't going to be the majority of the defenders though. Most of these are just general strategies, not meant to defeat every single defender. Of course the plague won't affect the Ringwraiths, or spirits. But it sure would decmate the orcs and humans.

We don't know the details of the spirits, but it is likely the heroes and elite forces of the undea will be able to dela with them.

Executor
2007-12-01, 12:47 PM
But since the Orcs are, in fact, corrupted Elves, they may very well be immortal and have the same resistance to disease that the Elves possess.

Yes, Northrend is a land of freezing storms. But those storms aren't controlled by the will of a hostile demigod. Lightning bolts could very well be directed to wreak havok amongst the flyers of the Lich King. There is also the matter of Orodruin, which is directed by Sauron's temperament. I'm not so sure that Frost Wyrms would be very resistant to hot lava raining down on them.

You're underestimating the strength of Barad-dur's walls. They are made of steel and adamantine, and quite indestructible unless the Ring is destroyed. And since the Ring rides safely on Sauron's finger within Barad-dur, the fortress' walls are essentially unbreakable. Besides, i'm not to sure that Abominations, beings of knitted flesh, will do too well against walls and gates of metal.

Selrahc
2007-12-01, 12:53 PM
Bridges of Ice: Sauron is a fire spirit. While water douses fire, fire melts ice. Simple facts. And I don't think ice will last very long in the volcanic desert that is Mordor.[quote]

Powerful spellcasters are maintaining the bridges. they aren't natural.

If Sauron shows himself, then he'll be painting a giant target on his head.

[QUOTE]Offensive magic: All nine Nazgul, plus all the Black Numenoreans, plus Sauron himself, makes a potent counterspelling force. In the Sauron vs Voldemort thread, we extrapolated that LOTR magic is Mind over Matter. One mage is willing the universe to do one thing, the other is willing the universe to do something else. Basically "This will happen" "No it WON'T" and whoever has the stronger will is the victor. In Moria, the Balrog's counterspell on the door of the Chamber of Mazarbul almost broke Gandalf's mind and collapsed most of the cavern around them. Sauron is more powerful than a Balrog.

Doesn't really matter. There are hundreds, thousands tens of thousands of spellcasters. Dispelling will be like spitting on an inferno.


Nerubians: Sauron has experience dealing with giant spiders. Shelob lives on his borders, and her and her monstrous brood could very well be persuaded to serve him

So Arthas has some new undead giant spiders....

They won't make a difference anyway, because to get ot a place they are needed, they will have to get through the massive army that is laying seige to the fortress.


Raising new undead from within Barad-dur: Do you really think that Sauron, who is himself a powerful necromancer, will allow you to raise more forces from his own dead? How close does Arthas' necromancers have to be to raise a corpse? Have you forgotten Sauron's casters, the Nazgul and Black Numenoreans, counterspelling the casters of the Lich King

Truckloads of necromancers. Some of whom are of incredible power, against one guy who is nowhere near as good as raising a quick undead army as they are.

Sauron is a caster of immense raw power, but he wasn't a very good necromancer. He couldn't animate corpses as quickly or as easily as even the lesser necromancers.


Leading heroes into Barad-dur: How? Tunneling is impossible due to the chasm, the sheer height of the walls along with the very real possibility of thousands of orcish archers make flying over a struggle, and at last I checked, the Undead didn't have any unit that casts Mass Teleportation.

They have magical items capable of teleportation. They have seige engines that can knock big chunks out of stone, or monsters that can do the same. They have flying transports that can tkae you into the broken bits.


Abominations against the Gate: Forcing the Gate of Barad-dur is not possible, even by Abominations. Every foot you take across the bridge, missiles will rain down on your from the towers above. Arrows, stones, javelins, fiery projectiles from mighty catapults. The gate itself is made of steel and adamant, immeasurably strong. Even if you do break it down, behind it you will find all Nine Nazgul, the Mouth of Sauron, most of the Black Numenoreans, thousands of orcs, uruks, trolls and Olog-hai and Sauron himself. A direct assault upon the gate is not practical.

Those things will all be being taken care of. Gargoyles and Dragons are attacking the tower itself, at all levels. Seige engines are shooting stuff. And spellcasters are killing everything in range.

So yeah, the armies of abominations will be able to get to the gate. Even though they take casualties. They are giant flesh golems, who are superstrong. They can rip up the doors.


The Plague: At last I checked, the plague depended on infected foodsources, correct? So, Arthas catapults some slabs of infected meat across the chasm. The orcs just don't eat them. They may be stupid but they're not that stupid. Besides, Barad-dur is already somehow provisioned from within. I don't believe the Plague will effect Sauron too much.

Nope. you get the plague just from being near the undead, and it spreads quickly.

The contamination of food sources is something the undead did to spread the plague before they had many undead, as part of their first assault on Lordaeron.

Selrahc
2007-12-01, 01:01 PM
Yes, Northrend is a land of freezing storms. But those storms aren't controlled by the will of a hostile demigod. Lightning bolts could very well be directed to wreak havok amongst the flyers of the Lich King. There is also the matter of Orodruin, which is directed by Sauron's temperament. I'm not so sure that Frost Wyrms would be very resistant to hot lava raining down on them.


Lightning bolts don't work very well on dead flesh.

Lava would hurt, but these are dragons. Immensely tough creatures


But since the Orcs are, in fact, corrupted Elves, they may very well be immortal and have the same resistance to disease that the Elves possess.

Huh. Good point. Maybe disease isn't so great then.

It could work though. The corruption does seem to remove the immortality.



You're underestimating the strength of Barad-dur's walls. They are made of steel and adamantine, and quite indestructible unless the Ring is destroyed. And since the Ring rides safely on Sauron's finger within Barad-dur, the fortress' walls are essentially unbreakable. Besides, i'm not to sure that Abominations, beings of knitted flesh, will do too well against walls and gates of metal.

Well.... steel and adamantine isn't very tough. Adamantine is a brittle real world mineral. So a steel adamantine mix isn't that hard to break.

I don't think it was said what the walls were made of.

Setra
2007-12-01, 01:05 PM
I'd like to mention that people seem to be underestimating the undead of the Lich King.

Ghouls are fast and deadly little buggers, at WORST it'd be 3-1 vs. an orc to take it down.

Executor
2007-12-01, 01:09 PM
In his vision at Amon Hen, Frodo sees Barad-dur as: ...wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant...Barad-dr, Fortress of Sauron So i'm pretty sure that Barad-dur is metallic in construction.

Lightning travels at 220,000 km/h and reaches a temperature of 30,000 C, hot enough to fuse soil or sand into glass. Are you telling me that a dragon would just shrug that off?

Adamant is actually an archaic term for an extremely hard substance, usually diamond. Adamantine is the adjectival form of Adamant. Since i'm sure Tolkien was well aware of these facts, it could mean that Barad-dur is made up of black diamond. In which case, no amount of Abominations or Meat Wagons will do a thing to it.

warty goblin
2007-12-01, 01:11 PM
Catapulting stuff over the walls? Pretty much the maximum range ever gained by a real world catapult is about 400 yards IIRC. It was pushing what could be done with Sauron-engineered seige engines to breach Minas Tirith, and Sauron is a far better engineer than the Lich King. Barad Dur is immesurably superior to Minas Tirith in just about every way. Catapults just won't work.

Even if your just throwing stuff at the walls, its not going to work. The Tower of Orthanc was completely unharmed by ent-thrown stones, despite ents being capable of leveling most masonry in short order. Barad Dur is the greatest fortress of its day, meaning that its walls will be immune to bombardment. Put another way, Barad-Dur seems to be made out of something that makes tank armor looks flimsy, and you are going to breach it by throwing rocks?

Sauron's counterspelling/defeating of magic (the terminology is open to interpretation) is pretty passive as well. He shut down the Vial of Galadriel at Mt. Doom, yet never even realized that anything was amiss until Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for himself. That is, he shut down an incrediably powerful artifact without even being aware that he was doing it. Explain how these loads of lesser necromancers will be able to do so much as light a candle against that kind of power?

Modern aircraft with durable wings and powerful engines are grounded by the storm I described. How is a dragon with bat wings going to keep in the air? Living on a glacier is easy, just don't fly when its storming that heavy. Sauron can, in his own lands, keep this weather up 24/7 without a problem. Zepplins have massive gas bags that catch a lot of air and are hence easy to drag off course and smash into the conveniently placed volcano.

All during this seige (assuming it ever comes to that), Sauron's master of evil will slowly be working its way through the Lich King and his forces, until retreat and reconcilliation seem like the natural thing to do. After all, loses are high, there's other places to conquer, so why not come to terms? And in coming to terms you'd have to meet with Sauron face to face, and good luck getting out of that with anything like a functioning mind, so its natural to take a position as Lord of the Northern Territories...

Selrahc
2007-12-01, 01:19 PM
In his vision at Amon Hen, Frodo sees Barad-dur as: ...wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant...Barad-dr, Fortress of Sauron So i'm pretty sure that Barad-dur is metallic in construction.

Right. Adamant, not adamantine.

So that pretty much eliminates any usage for conventional forces. Go go incorporeal undead, teleporters and long range spell casters.



Lightning travels at 220,000 km/h and reaches a temperature of 30,000 C, hot enough to fuse soil or sand into glass. Are you telling me that a dragon would just shrug that off?

Yes. A human can shrug that off if they're lucky.

Lightning breaks your nervous system, it doesn't annihilate the body. To kill the undead, you need to break the body.

Artemician
2007-12-01, 01:27 PM
Lightning travels at 220,000 km/h and reaches a temperature of 30,000 C, hot enough to fuse soil or sand into glass. Are you telling me that a dragon would just shrug that off?

Yes, actually. Warcraft Dragons are most certainly not dumb brutes, they are ancient and cunning foes who wield mastery over magic. They are the guardians of the world, created by the Titans to safeguard the magics of Azeroth. While Frost Wyrms may lose their memories upon being raised, they lose none of their former power.


...he (Sauron) shut down an incrediably powerful artifact without even being aware that he was doing it. Explain how these loads of lesser necromancers will be able to do so much as light a candle against that kind of power?

They have the Lich King on their side. He'll find a way, just as Elendil and Gil-Galad found a way.


All during this seige (assuming it ever comes to that), Sauron's master of evil will slowly be working its way through the Lich King and his forces, until retreat and reconcilliation seem like the natural thing to do. After all, loses are high, there's other places to conquer, so why not come to terms? And in coming to terms you'd have to meet with Sauron face to face, and good luck getting out of that with anything like a functioning mind, so its natural to take a position as Lord of the Northern Territories...

In all likelihood, coming to terms will be the natural conclusion. The Lich King is not a fool, and he will not recklessly fight battles in which he knows he will sustain heavy losses. However, we *have* to pit Sauron and the Lich King versus each other, as in all Versus threads, so we can't really talk about Negotiated Settlements.

As to the second point: whether Sauron can in fact crush the Lich King's will when they meet face to face is still a point of contention. The Lich King was able to beat the Eredar and the Nathrezim at their own game of intrigue and domination, and he may very well pull it off again. In many ways, what he does is similiar to Sauron's corruption of the Black Numenoreans.

Adumbration
2007-12-01, 01:30 PM
You know... If Arthas could get his hands on the Ring, it would be pretty much game over for Sauron. True, the Ring would corrupt the Lich King, but big deal? In exchange: the powers of Sauron. Hell, if Galadriel or Gandalf could've done it, why not Arthas?

On an another note, in WC, guns and cannons have been invented. If, say if, Arthas would fail to defeat Sauron's fortress by conventional means, he could just animate couple hundred engineers and make them work day and night until he has some machineguns, giant cannons and bombs. Beats the hell out of throwing rocks, anyway.

I'm not sure if there was a moat or chasm of some sort at Barad-dur, but if not (can't remember it from the film) the nerubian spiders are made for burrowing. Burrow under the walls, plant some explosives and watch the fireworks. An other option would be to simply burrow directly into their camps and butcher them while they sleep.

warty goblin
2007-12-01, 01:33 PM
Right. Adamant, not adamantine.

So that pretty much eliminates any usage for conventional forces. Go go incorporeal undead, teleporters and long range spell casters.



Yes. A human can shrug that off if they're lucky.

Lightning breaks your nervous system, it doesn't annihilate the body. To kill the undead, you need to break the body.

Lightening can also cause trees to explode by boiling their sap. Dragons (particularly undead ones) generally contain liquids that can be boiled. Exploding zombie dragons in midair never gets old...

That lucky bit just means that more lightening needs to be routed into the dragons. Not hard to do when you control the weather...

Sending incorporial undead into Barad-Dur is an excellent way to lose control of your incorporeal undead. Even assuming (and this is a big assumption) that the Lich King can keep his minions under control this close to Sauron's base of power, there's no way that will work once entering the physical seat of his power on earth, a building literally built on a foundation of his will. Same with teleportation.

Adumbration
2007-12-01, 01:36 PM
Lightening can also cause trees to explode by boiling their sap. Dragons (particularly undead ones) generally contain liquids that can be boiled. Exploding zombie dragons in midair never gets old...

That lucky bit just means that more lightening needs to be routed into the dragons. Not hard to do when you control the weather...


By the way, if I remember correct, Frost Wyrms are basically just bones of the dragons, flaps of their skin plus a truckload of magic. It is extremely unlikely that they would be much affected by mundane lightning. Magical one might, but not your everyday one.

EDIT: Oh, and - this is something I only remember vaguely - lightning can't hit anything mid-air. It has nowhere to ground to.

warty goblin
2007-12-01, 01:40 PM
They have the Lich King on their side. He'll find a way, just as Elendil and Gil-Galad found a way.


Deus ex Machina is now an acceptable means of determining victory then? Also, I distinctly remember that Elendil and Gil-galad's way involved them getting horribly killed and Isildur corrupted. If that's the definition of victory for the Lich King, Sauron may as well conceed and win in doing so.



In all likelihood, coming to terms will be the natural conclusion. The Lich King is not a fool, and he will not recklessly fight battles in which he knows he will sustain heavy losses. However, we *have* to pit Sauron and the Lich King versus each other, as in all Versus threads, so we can't really talk about Negotiated Settlements.

As to the second point: whether Sauron can in fact crush the Lich King's will when they meet face to face is still a point of contention. The Lich King was able to beat the Eredar and the Nathrezim at their own game of intrigue and domination, and he may very well pull it off again. In many ways, what he does is similiar to Sauron's corruption of the Black Numenoreans.

Sauron doesn't need to crush the Lich King's will, by dint of being evil, the Lich King is pretty much doing Sauron's bidding automatically. To deny this is to deny Sauron a lot of his power.

Rutee
2007-12-01, 01:53 PM
3. Mortality of gods/demigods: In the Warcraft setting, it seems that beings that are classified as deities are mortal (like the Norse gods). In Tolkien the Valar/Maiar are not mortal. The Big Bads are reduced in personal power eventually due to their investment of themselves into the fabric of the universe (read that as, all of the evils in the world, even as it exists today, is due to the influence of these beings regardless of the fact that it's not being personally directed by them), but they are still far from "killable" in the literal meaning of the word. The fact that various other mythologies include deities that can be killed doesn't mean that all of them do. This doesn't mean that it's an easy fight for Sauron, the fact that the LK can kill beings on that level is impressive, but taking it to mean that he'll automatically be able to do the same to beings that are literally immortal is a stretch at best.
Gods stopped being immortal 30 years ago in fiction. They've been successfully killed despite claims of immortality for far too long for any claim ever of "I can not die in combat" to still hold an effect. It didn't come up in Voldemort vs. Sauron because I didn't genuinely think he was powerful enough for it to make a difference. It's coming up here because, as Artemician has pointed out, the Lich King is feared by people who, while not deities in name, have killed deities in the past, and thus, we can surmise, are deities in power. Y'all on Tolkien's side have been putting way too much stock in titles. Sauron can demonstrably be defeated. I stopped hearing "I can not be killed" after the umpteenth teenage boy killed the embodiment of absolute evil in his universe for the umpteenth time precisely after hearing that statement.


Take for a moment, the worst victory case; The Lich King can never kill him because lolzSauron. We're talking about an immortal (Time-wise) force here; If he could kill Sauron the first time, he's going to kill him every time, after destroying his power base. Just keep repeating ad-nauseum; Nerzhy's won. Unlike Voldemort, his forces don't diminish with time; If he won once, he's going to keep on winning. Heck, if he figures out how to spawn orcs (Or if it doesn't take Sauron's direct intervention and is an automatic process), he's going to have /significantly/ bigger armies with each successive kill. And that's if we assume that he can not, in fact, kill Sauron, which I consider to be a silly, outmoded interpretation of what divinity means.


Modern aircraft with durable wings and powerful engines are grounded by the storm I described. How is a dragon with bat wings going to keep in the air? Living on a glacier is easy, just don't fly when its storming that heavy. Sauron can, in his own lands, keep this weather up 24/7 without a problem. Zepplins have massive gas bags that catch a lot of air and are hence easy to drag off course and smash into the conveniently placed volcano.
They fly when it is storming that heavy already dude; Seriously, Northrend has constant ice storms. This is /fantasy/. If you're going to contest /this/ on grounds of "Modern anything can't do it", you're going to need to start explaining how Sauron creates Orcs when modern tech can't spawn things that fast. They fly in storms that ground aircraft already. Ball's in your court, hon.


Sauron's counterspelling/defeating of magic (the terminology is open to interpretation) is pretty passive as well. He shut down the Vial of Galadriel at Mt. Doom, yet never even realized that anything was amiss until Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for himself. That is, he shut down an incrediably powerful artifact without even being aware that he was doing it. Explain how these loads of lesser necromancers will be able to do so much as light a candle against that kind of power?
Who's to say the LK's presence won't tell his AMF to bugger off by itself? Who's to say that his top lieutenants, who've destroyed, corrupted, or beaten handily artifacts of deity-level power (The Sunwell, before you even begin to press), won't just laugh it off and keep casting? Seriously people; We're dealing with equals in power. If you're going to persist in assuming that Sauron automatically trumps everything ever in all fantasy without trying, there isn't ground for a debate. It's just lolzsauronwins. Y'all were pretty good about this with Voldemort, can you please be that way with someone who far outstrips him in power? Middle Earth isn't one of Disgaea's Netherworlds. The setting power isn't really omgzhigh, at all.


Sauron is a far better engineer than the Lich King.<snip>
Says. Who? Notwithstanding that you seem to have a lot of contradiction. You can believe things beating modern tech when they're Sauron's (What with the "Tanks couldn't breach Barad-dur", but when the LK does it, you seem to have problems accepting it. Why the discrepancy?


Nope. you get the plague just from being near the undead, and it spreads quickly.
Wait, can you cite that please? I know infected food infects more food, but I wasn't aware that the plague spread just from the undead's presence. A section of the WCIII campaign is sufficient, I just dun remember that.


All during this seige (assuming it ever comes to that), Sauron's master of evil will slowly be working its way through the Lich King and his forces, until retreat and reconcilliation seem like the natural thing to do. After all, loses are high, there's other places to conquer, so why not come to terms? And in coming to terms you'd have to meet with Sauron face to face, and good luck getting out of that with anything like a functioning mind, so its natural to take a position as Lord of the Northern Territories...
Dude, Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde make Sauron look like a wuss (And Kil'Jaeden /does/ have mental manipulation as one of his strong points) and they couldn't /ever/ sustain Mind Control on the Lich King. What makes you think Sauron is going to mind crush him?

Selrahc
2007-12-01, 01:59 PM
Wait, can you cite that please? I know infected food infects more food, but I wasn't aware that the plague spread just from the undead's presence. A section of the WCIII campaign is sufficient, I just dun remember that.

Meat wagons and abominations have a plague cloud.

Presumbaly its of the same type which was spreading among the populace.

Rutee
2007-12-01, 02:02 PM
Oh, sensical. I hadn't thought of that.

factotum
2007-12-01, 02:13 PM
Since i'm sure Tolkien was well aware of these facts, it could mean that Barad-dur is made up of black diamond. In which case, no amount of Abominations or Meat Wagons will do a thing to it.

Diamond is incredibly hard...the hardest known natural substance, in fact. However, diamond is extremely brittle. That's how they break large diamonds into smaller pieces--all they have to do is hit it at the right angle with a hammer and chisel and it'll shatter into two halves, no problem. If Barad-Dur was indeed made of black diamond, then firstly Sauron isn't such a brilliant engineer as everyone seems to think, and secondly, a few catapaults lobbing boulders at it should be quite enough to generate a few breaches.

warty goblin
2007-12-01, 02:20 PM
I am not assuming that Sauron trumps everything. I have provided evidence for all of my claims where available and have extrapolated from other canon evidence and canon descriptions where not available. It so happens that Sauron is an immensely powerful entity with serious anti-magic skills and magical engineering abilities. He did engineer Barad-Dur and, IIRC most of Angband as well (it was under his command when Melkor was in control of Utumno). I'm not saying that the Lich King/Arthas/whatever he is isn't a skilled magical engineer, but the reading that I've done and the evidence I've been presented with suggests that he is not. Orthanc can withstand powerful bombardment. Barad-Dur is greater than Orthanc, hence Barad-Dur can weather at least the same degree of bombardment, and almost certainly a vast deal more without harm. Again, canon evidence and extrapolation.

Similarly, every magic exposed to Sauron in LOTR is either countered (vial) or corrupted and bent to his own purposes (Palantiri).

All evil done in LOTR in the end serves Sauron's ends, fighting him with evil is not a solution. This is one area where Voldemort is probably better off than the Lich King, since Voldemort does evil as a means to an end, and the Lich King seem seems to do Evil for Evil's sake.

I also freely admit that if the Lich King manages to kill Sauron once, its as good as a perma-kill. I believe I said this back on page one. It cannot be denied however, whatever the mortality of gods in other settings, that Sauron is immortal and unkillable. He can be rendered harmless and powerless, but he cannot be killed. He alse never said he was unkillable right before being done in by a teenager with a mysterious past.

Rutee, I also note that a lot of your counter arguments fall into the "who says" catagory (given that that's the exact language you use, I don't feel that's an unfair critique). This does not a convincing argument make, since it lacks evidence, a thesis, and, in the end, a point.

edit:
I admit, given actual evidence, that the ice dragons can fly in storms, although how they withstand lightening is still an open question. I also admit that my language may have been somewhat confusing, so forget I ever mentioned anything modern, that was stupid of me. I also don't mean this as an attack on Rutee personally, just a critique of technique. I hope no offense is taken.

Executor
2007-12-01, 02:31 PM
Tolkien never gives an exact description of Barad-dur, he uses vague terms like "immeasurably strong" to describe it, while it gives us an idea of Barad-dur's formidable nature, we never really get an understanding of how formidable it is. But I think we can all agree that Sauron's fortress is stronger than Icecrown Glacier.

Sauron is also the most cunning evil in Middle-earth. Morgoth outstripped him in raw power, but Sauron was the smarter of the two. He is also amazingly powerful. He survived a continent being dropped on him (Fall of Numenor), he survived a fight with the immortal Huan, God of Hounds, he survived a magical crossfire between Morgoth and the Valar, the makers of the world going to war. And the Valar are powerful indeed. You know why they sent in the Istari to fight Sauron in the Third Age instead of doing it themselves? Because the magical fallout of a direct assault on Barad-dur would've eliminated all life on Earth. This is Middle-Earth before the War of Wrath:
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/a/a6/Beleriand.jpg

This is it after the War of Wrath
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/d/de/500px-Middle-earth.svg.png

The Misty Mountains were thrown up by Morgoth as an impediment to the Valar's advance. The seas dried up or rushed in to where there was no water before, mountains ranges were flattened and raised, hills were flattened into plains, plains were pushed up into hills. Now, did the Lich King survive the creators of a world going to war with each other?

Azeroth magic may be more obvious than Middle-earth magic, but it is no less powerful.

Rutee
2007-12-01, 02:37 PM
Rutee, I also note that a lot of your counter arguments fall into the "who says" catagory (given that that's the exact language you use, I don't feel that's an unfair critique). This does not a convincing argument make, since it lacks evidence, a thesis, and, in the end, a point.
As I have posted actual arguments and comparisons, and I have been met with lulzSauron on a consistent basis, including by you, despite claims to the contrary, I have very little impetus to continue posting real arguments. Go back to them and examine them, and properly respond to them, and I'll go back to doing it.


Similarly, every magic exposed to Sauron in LOTR is either countered (vial) or corrupted and bent to his own purposes (Palantiri).

All evil done in LOTR in the end serves Sauron's ends, fighting him with evil is not a solution. This is one area where Voldemort is probably better off than the Lich King, since Voldemort does evil as a means to an end, and the Lich King seem seems to do Evil for Evil's sake.

See? Lolzsauron. "Because he won here, he automatically wins everywhere"

Executor
2007-12-01, 02:41 PM
I don't believe i've been doing "LulzSauron" have I? I don't think he wins due to the fact that he's Sauron, I think he wins due to superior experience, fortifications and intellect, as well as raw casting power.

warty goblin
2007-12-01, 02:48 PM
As I have posted actual arguments and comparisons, and I have been met with lulzSauron on a consistent basis, including by you, despite claims to the contrary, I have very little impetus to continue posting real arguments. Go back to them and examine them, and properly respond to them, and I'll go back to doing it.


See? Lolzsauron. "Because he won here, he automatically wins everywhere"

When did I do this? I admit to making arguments for his victory based on his past victories, but that's hardly lolzsauron, its extrapolating from his known powers and past experience. Please point these places out, and I'll do my best to redress my wrong arguments.

I hardly maintain that Sauron trumps all, the C'Tan from WH40K, the Chaos gods from same, Raistin Majere (see? I'm conceding the fight to a mere mortal), and several classical gods I would all place above Sauron in a fight. There's probably others I'm not thinking of as well.

WalkingTarget
2007-12-01, 02:49 PM
[maps of middle earth]

Notice that the Blue Mountains are on the far right of the first map and are on the northwest coast of the second. Almost the entire landmass that the tales of the First Age talk about was destroyed in the War of Wrath.

Talkkno
2007-12-01, 02:58 PM
Azeroth magic may be more obvious than Middle-earth magic, but it is no less powerful.

But there a lot more spellcasters on Azeroth....
Forgive my ignorance, but is there anything difference from Middle-Earth mithril and Warcraft mithril?

WalkingTarget
2007-12-01, 03:10 PM
But there a lot more spellcasters on Azeroth....
Forgive my ignorance, but is there anything difference from Middle-Earth mithril and Warcraft mithril?

Well, mithril is definitely rarer in Tolkien. A light chain shirt (small enough for a child/hobbit/gnome) is worth as much as a nice-sized chunk of prime farmland.

Said shirt also prevented the stabbing damage from a spear thrust from a full-grown orc at full charge (still got hurt from the force of being hit like that, but the spear point did no cutting itself).

I don't know any qualities of WarCraft mithril other than that it falls between steel and thorium armor in WoW.

Deadmeat.GW
2007-12-01, 05:21 PM
Given the fact that Sauron is also the Great Necromancer I am going to say he has a tiny little edge on the Lich King.

The Lich King not being versed in wholescale corruption and misguiding of people, creatures is going to suffer a serious amount of defections.

Don't forget, he has lost control over a sizeable amount of undead before and is unable to simply take control back.

The quality of the armies are slightly in the Lich Kings favour, the weapon he wields is pretty much up to par for harming Sauron seriously but he is a Necromancer.
If he has to battle Sauron's will to control his undead minions he is going to be in trouble.
And I can see Sauron just decide this is the only way he is going to have a decent chance of winning.

Without that little detail i would have given it to the Lich King with 75% chance to 25% odds to win.
With it however i would say 55% for Sauron to 45% for the Lich King.

And if any neutral parties are around...well, lets just say the Lich King is in severe trouble because I so could see Sauron subtly redirect all of the neutral parties to either harm or blockade the Lich King giving Sauron a decisive margin to win it of 75% to 25%.

Mind you, Sauron is going have been in serious fight and he will have remembered it and so is the Lich King.

Hum...

I might actually see them make a temporary alliance since neither is willing to loose it all just to win.

lipe44
2007-12-01, 06:33 PM
They will just ally, take over all worlds, dimensions, universes or whatever its called then divide it for then...

EvilElitest
2007-12-01, 07:07 PM
On day three pages? Oh gods

1a. However, if it came down to who could maintain control over the Lich King's forces, I would have to rule in the Lich King's favor
The lich king has already loss control of his forces once, he demostrated that not only is his control not absolute, it is breakable, and once broken it can't be fixed and the freed undead are really pissed
Name one instance where Sauron's men openly rebelled or his control was totally lost other than the destruction of the ring

3. Lieutenants: So, it's Kel'Thuzad versus the Witch King and the Lich King's Death Knights against the other Nazgul. I'd have to say that the individual Nazgul could each beat a Death Knight, and that the Witch King could beat Kel'Thuzad. But, if we take into account that the Lich King may have more than 8 Death Knights, the battle starts turning in his favor. The Nazgul are incredibly tough, but Death Knights wield magical weapons and I'd have to say that in a 2 on 1 battle (or even a 3 on 1 battle depending on how many Death Knights you think the Lich King might have) the Death Knights are probably a match for the 8 Nazgul. Even though the Witch King is significantly more powerful than Kel'Thuzad, I'd say that enough Death Knights (say, enough to kill off the other 8 Nazgul?) could overwhelm him. And in reference to the "No man can kill me," they are technically Undead, and no longer real Men
just a few points
1. The fact is, they still need women to finish the WK
2. Your right about the death knight Nazgul ratio, however two things,
a) nazgul have flying steeds
B) if each nazgul brings down three death knights before dying, the nazgul come back, the death knights don't
3. The nazgul have that niffy fear factor, i mean the WK made it so an entire city couldn't harm him. Unless against zombies i know, but death knights can feel fear
Edit
Oh you made point of the fell beasts, sorry
just to point this out, Sauron has more than nine fell beasts, so even if the nazgul are destroyed, they will just come back

4. Personal Combat: In a straight battle of the Lich King versus Sauron, I'd have to give the battle to the Lich King. Though Sauron is basically invincible with his ring, it has been shown that a sufficiently magical sword can cut it off, and I'd say that Frostmourne probably qualifies. In which case, the Lich King and his magicians hold off Sauron's spirit for long enough to destroy the One Ring.
But Arthas was almost killed by Illedan alone, while Sauron was defeated by 6 people, four of whom were some of the oldest and most powerful elves, and the two greatest men of the ages, armed with muiltible magical items.

Lich King knows tactics better than Sauron?
The LK's tatical flaw
Not spreading his forces out properly (he let Illidan get in behind his army)
Sauron's tatical error
Overestimating the intellegence of Gandalf, underestimating the compatence of a three foot tall hobbit and a three foot gardener. Yeah......

I also believe he commanded Morgoth's forces during the Fall of Gondolin and other such battles. He's been fighting since the universe was born. Definetely longer than the Lich King.
He was Morgoth's second, he also kept Morgoth's forces alive during the war of lamps, were the valar were directly involved

Barad-dur is the greatest fortress raised since Angband. Tolkien describes as inestimately high and immeasurably strong. Wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, tower upon tower, rising up in a great spike of steel and adamant, that is inpregnable. The Last Alliance, the greatest army the world had seen since the Host of the Noldor during the First Age, besieged this fortress for seven years and could not breach it. Its building took six hundred years, it is so large that viewing it is surreal, brave men quail at the sight of it, and the only place Sauron's will gets any stronger is Orodruin. Icecrown Glacier make be formidable, but Barad-dur is invincible.
also bear in mind, when Sauron has his ring, he can bring Barad-ur back whenever he wants it, and also Sauroman's tower of orthanic (remember how tall it was) is described as a children's model compared to Sauron's, one so minute that Sauron didn't even realize that it was an attempt to mimic his design

You know what? Never mind. You guys are completely right. Lolzsauronwins.
you admitted i was right on a vs. thread. You have
1. Blown my mind
2. won the internet
3. I love you
4. Get a cookie
edit
Oh didn't notics those annoying links, just a second, you don't win the internet
1.The ancients are weaker than the Maliar, just to point that out. The ancients are clearly described as being killable, the Maiar are not
2. Agamaggan was destroyed by millions of demons who wielded divine class magic, nothing compared to the Lich king
3. Archimonde at full power and literally millions of demons took him down? Yeah...................both of which the Lich king lacks
4. Aviana was also killed by hoards of demons, and she was a lesser ancient
hell, she isn't even dead (read the rest of that link)
5. also die fighting millions of demons,
6. a lesser demi god, who is killed in a weaken state by demon touched orcs led by the greatest orc hero of the age and even then he puts up a fight
7. he is in his weakest state ever, and is still one of the hardest wow bosses
8. death wing isn't dead

Deathwing's current location has been the subject of much speculation. No one is certain where he has gone...[2] Blizzplanet has a good article covering several possibilities.[12]

* Grim Batol; which "...has the distinction of being the last place that the evil black dragon Deathwing was spotted. I do not believe that he is dead - perhaps the red dragons have taken him captive?".[8]
* Daval Prestor's Kingdom in northern Lodaeron. Perhaps there was some truth, mixed within Deathwing's lies to the high council of the Alliance, and he really did come from northern Lordaeron.
* Gilneas; from when Genn Greymane sponsored Deathwing as Lord Prestor
* Mount Kajaro (Kezan); because Deathwing's usual lair on Azeroth was in a volcano, attended by goblins.
* Deathwing's Lair; Deathwing has been absent from his lair for several years.(The book is unclear if it is speaking about his lair on Azeroth, or his lair in Outland.)[2]
* Mount Hyjal; When Furion was exploring the Barrow Deeps of Mount Hyjal, he encountered black dragon whelps, the "spawn of Deathwing" that had taken up residence in the caves. In the inaccessible zone of Mount Hyjal in the game, there is a cave entrance similar to Onyxia's Lair as it is a giant dragon skull. This has been speculated by some to be Deathwing's Lair on Azeroth and his possible current location, the source of the "spawn of Deathwing" in the mountain.
* Wyrmrest Temple (Dragonblight); There are rumors of the ancient black dragon Deathwing returning to Northrend. He landed in the Dragonblight, at the foot of Wyrmrest Temple, and announced that he was close to death and wished to end his life there with others already present. However it may have just been a ruse.[13]
* Still in command; some black dragons, claim to receive regular messages from Deathwing (though none has been confirmed as yet)...[3]
* Dead; Some of the black dragons assert that Deathwing is dead and that a new monarch of their flight must be chosen.[3] Some wonder if he has in fact been slain.[2]
* Some fans speculate that Deathwing is in fact one of the large, armored Black Dragons impaled on the spikes of Dragons' End, although it is extremely unlikely that a major lore figure would appear as an unidentified corpse with no mention of his death (not to mention the fact that there are several).
* Caverns of Time; some have speculated that he is waging war with Nozdormu, with the Infinite Dragonflight at his command, and that his transformation by the Demon Soul may have been the basis for a new brood. Who his mate would be in this instance, however, is unknown. Possibly a bronze female, as would explain the similar abilities and attributes of the black-skinned infinite flight.
* Emerald Dream; It is known that the Old Gods are behind the Emerald Nightmare and they corrupted Deathwing. So it s possible that they sent Deathwing there, being a Dragon Aspect he might share the ability to enter the Emerald Dream.

However, more recent revelations in World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade may have given us more information.
9, oh come on, it took the comic forces themselves to knock him off
10. different world, different author, irrelevant
11. he is a god? What ever, irrelvant
12. not written by tolkion or by Billizard, irrelevant
13. not usable by ether side, irrelevant
14. Knowing Bhaal, i really doubt he is dead
15. how does god of war have anything to do with this?

Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde, the marshalls of the Burning Legion, consider )or considered, in the case of Archimonde) Ner'zhul to be a big threat. How big a threat they consider him, is never really told to us. Of course, the fact that they tried, and failed to delay Arthas' ascension to the Lich King has to mean something. They're worried about him: he's out of their control
but not worried enough to send troops after him, i think it is more they dont' want to put up with him along with all of their other enemies

Plenty of times. The scourge gets a specific undead zeppelin model in the campaign. In certain levels (Such as when attempting to rescue Tyrande, the priestess of the moon in the Frozen Throne campaign) the undead send dozens of zeppelins filled with troops at you.

The undead have a force of zeppelins for air transportation.

i haven't played Warcraft III for years, source?

Frost wyrms are the equivalent of Nazguls on Fel Beasts, in terms of raw power. They also are a damn sight better than Nazguls in terms of butchering large numbers of troops.
Pleasssssssssssssssssse, fel beasts, but nazgul, frost wyrms don't compare

Large numbers of frost wyrms are used throughout the campaign. Arthas has access to a very large number of dragon corpses from his conquest of the orc tribes(Who deployed lots and lots of red dragons), and from the destruction of the dragon population across Northrend and Lordaeron(As well as all the naturally occuring dragon corpses from throughout history that he could find)
1. Give me a number
2. Arthas doesn't have acess to those dragons killed by the orcs
3. And how many is that? There aren't to many dragons (not in the hundred thousands at least) and they don't die easy
4. Not every dragon that dies gets raised by arthas

We're obviously not taking him during the first age. Because Sauron wasn't boss in the first age.
1. Sauron at full power. He has had vampires with him at full power (his power prior to his loss of the ring)
2. He was the second biggest bad

The undead are used to flying around in northrend. Constant snowstorms and raging winds. He'd have to be send ing in hurricanes to inconvenience them.
these dragons are heavy, they have tatters for wings, and sauron can control the weather. Aka, create heavy winds, or lack of wind, or if they get to close, blast them down with his volcano

Hah. Well, if I were Arthas I'd send dozens of destroyers after them. Immune to magic, capable of devouring enchantments and ripping apart enemies.

Back them up with a few dozen dragons(Who are also resistant/immune to magic), and a few hundred gargoyles. and you crush those Ringwraiths easy.
1. destroyer? Aren't those demons?
2. After losing massive amount of troops, the nazgul just come back

Oh before i forget, Sauron has other fell beasts, giant crows and giant bats, swarms of normal crows and bats, as well as swarms of evil flies

I don't think its the greatest use of Saurons powers to be standing around as an anti air turret. All Arthas has to do is use scouts. An undead raven or swallow. Or a gargoyle.
corruption, or with the ring, just shoot them down

I'm thinking this is way overplayed. If Sauron was capable of dominatiing peoples wills on this level, then how did an alliance ever come top being against him? How did Elendil and Isildur stand against him, rather than turning on each other? How did an army march without dozens of their own numbers turning traitor at every step?
Sauron can dominate the will of evil creatures, the last alliance was good, so it didn't work
But the lich king doesn't have to worry, because every member of his troop is good, well, nice, well, ok they are all evil to the core (unless freed from his control). Arthas is screwed.

As it was portrayed in the main body of lord of the rings, it was a gradual gnawing corruption, rather than an instant takeover of wills. It served at best, as a minor disruption.
hobbits are possibly the most unambitious, kind, goodly creatures in the world, and frodo was good by there standards, and it still corrupted him in the end

Against the undead, it would serve as even less. I know he was at far less power then, but it just doesn't make sense that elves and men could raise an army against him if he could do what you're suggesting.
Undead are intellegent in the Wow world, they retain their intellegence from when they were alive.

In some cases, yes. But he has a lot of powerful heroes too.
i can only think of the spider dude, and Kel'thuzad, both of whom are highely corruptable. Who else?

Thousands and thousands of lesser necromancers, backing up powerful Necromancers. Thousands and thousands of lesser necromancers, backing up powerful Necromancers. The scourge did not only consist of the four heroes you play as in the campaign. As the World of Warcraft links show, Arthas has dozens of Death Knights, Liches and other assorted uber minions. Many of whom are at least as powerful as ringwraiths.
1. They aren't heros from the Warcraft term
2. None of them are nearly as powerful as ringwraiths alone, only in groups

The shamans and magic users of the Lich Kings orcs joined him in undeath. An army of paladins became death knights. The rulers of the vast empire of the nerubians became crypt lords.
1. Aren't all those shaman's dead. i haven't seen one at all in the story after the lich king goes independent. Name me one orc shaman who is still alive
2. what army of paladins? Some joined him, but an army?
3. The nerubians are perfect for corruption, most of them don't want to serve arthas

No. Orc is lightly armoured, poorly armed, squabble frequently, ahve poor morale if not watched by Sauron, and are physically inferior to regular humans
against a shambling corpse?

Ghouls on the other hand, are equivalent to heavily armed and armoured humans. They feel no pain. They are stronger. They never fall back. They run faster than people. They knit their flesh back together, and they can eat the dead to do so faster.
1. LK's basic grunts are zombies, not ghouls
2. ghouls also are intellegent, should they regain control of themselves, they become forsaken
3. Ghouls are also dumber (they just charge unless being directed) only heal after eating corpses, and they aren't orginized.

Most of the orcs, humans, elves, trolls, dwarves, goblins, gnomes, murguls, and other assorted humanoids in Lordaeron. A sick old lady becomes an effective warrior after being undeaded, so vast numbers can be quickly created and taken.
incorrect, most of the undead of Loraeron have ether been killed or become forsaken. How many does he have currently?

Ah, so Saurons master plan is to protect his men from the plague, by having them starve to death.

The plague took hold in the food supplies across Lordaeron.
1. orcs and trolls can eat the dead
2. Sauron's farms keep his men alive
3. The tainted meat only got into Lordaeron because nobody knew that the imported food was bad. Sauron makes his own food, no problem.

Thats an incredibly large assumption. One with which I do not agree.

Saying that because he unleashed one plague, means that he knows how to cure all plagues is completely unsupported.
his own men were not effected by the plauge, even the ones who were human an in gondor lands (the haradrim and the easterlings)

Evil magic is not a good way of healing people. That was my point really, the holy forces are great at curing diseases, the unholy are great at unleashing them. But Saurons foes don't succumb to illness, and he isn't a holy warrior who can cure the plague with his sheer shining goodness.
orcs and trolls don't die of disease it seems (they can eat anything, live in filth, and have survive plauge infested areas) sauron can protect his living dudes, and knowing him, he can send the plauge back at them
Fun fact, plauge can effect the scourge, because otherwise the forsaken would be trying to make an anti scourge plague

No way. Definitely not.
prove if. How many men does the lich king have. Do you want me to make a Wow character and count them for you?

Not really. Both forces are magically bound together by dark overlords with an enormous degree of mental control. Both forces then rely on skilled generals to micromanage situations. Organization is identical.

Tactics are about equal too. Strategy I would say Arthas has the edge, since he actually used his giant forces to his advantage and went from a position of having a few cultists, to toppling two great empires and ravaging a continent, then becoming the greatest force in the world. Sauron couldn't even kill a few city states, with a vast numbers advantag
1. the orcs are orginized into legions
2. Sauron has shown his orcs orgnization
3. Sauron has crushed whole nations
4. Few city states? They were all that were left of a massive nation
I'll let somebody else correct this

Arthas has been vastly more competent.k
because nothing say compatent than letting half you dude switch sides on you

And has more sheer strength of arms. Sauron has better defences, but thats negated by the vast number of ways Arthas can overcome them.
what vast numbers? How many does Arthas have?

He can rip the black gates to shreds with thousands of dragons. He can smash them to fragments with powerful magics. Or he could just fly over them.
1. He does't have thousands of dragons
2. Magic doesn't work at the black gate, or in mordor really that sauron doesn't like
3. Fly over it with a small force, harried by Sauron's magic and ariel forces, over a desert, wow smart tatic that.
from,
EE

EvilElitest
2007-12-01, 07:40 PM
EE's rant part two


Again, if the Lich King has an army, it assumes the existance of third party actors because the undead need living to create more of them. If there's no third parties, there's no way for the Lich King to get an army. I'm assuming that the Warcraft side wants their dude to have an army, hence there are neutrals. I'm perfectly happy with these being neutral at the start, within about three weeks they'll all by fighting for Sauron anyway.
while that is a brillent loop hole, are these only the evil neutrals because there are no good guys in this conflict
wait a second, if there are no good guys in this fight, then doesn't that mean that all of the LK's forces who were good but being control leave, or is that just to nitpicky

I'm doubting they would all ally against Arthas anyway. The people left in the Warcraft universe are mostly the types who would unite against both evil dark lords
sauron would pretend to be good? Or ally with the hoard, they are accepting anyone these days

The Lich King is a singularly wilful being. If being an elf/dwarf/elite human/maiar is enough to make you immune to his corruption, then I don't see how Arthas or his generals are going to succumb.
no being good
1. Elves in ME are like gods
2. Dwarves in ME are almost immune to corruption
3. The nudomorians had god influences

Remember, the Heroes in Warcraft are exceptional individuals, who are thus immune to mind influencing effects, and innately resistant to magic. As standard. Arthas is far beyond a standard hero, he has magical defences up the wazoo, hes a spellcaster of an insane power, and has an unshakable will
same in LOTRS, the heros are exceptions indivisuals. Oh and arthas being strong willed? And sauon as proven he can corrupt them If he was so strong will, how was he corrupted in the first place?
He was taken over by the sword
He was taken over by the sword
He was taken over by the sword
no matter what way you look at it, arthas fought a battle of wills, and failed

Now, I do think that Sauron could get some corruption going on. Maybe turn a few generals traitor, but it wouldn't be a quick process, and it wouldn't have a very big effect. The better generals, like Kel Thuzad, are too loyal, and have too much of the Lich Kings will backing them up.
once a few undead turn trators, all of the undead who's families and friends they were forced to kill by the Lich King will turn trator, his minions hate him, remember the forsaken.

Disloyal bandits, not motivated well rewarded exceptionally powerful and loyal elite warriors.
they were a kindom, a power kindom who sauron corrupted from within. They are never described as bandits

The main body of the force are utterly without will. So can't be corrupted(Although he could possibly usurp control, at close ranges. But I think the necromancers of the scourge would be resisting that)
they have will, just not free will, if Sauron can take away that they join him, remember the Forsaken?

that is an evil(cowardly) act
cowardness is not evil

When Gollum attacked Frodo to steal the ring, that was an evil act and it was one which definitely didn't help Sauron.
yes it did, it kept frodo from using the ring against sauron or overcoming the influence. now Gollum tripping, that wasn't evil, but wasn't good for Sauron

Q: If.. let's say, Morgoth as he was in the first age happened to lust for power, knowledge, etc. would he therefore fall under the control of Sauron, his first lieatenant?
well sauron worked for him, but is described as the more dangerous if not more powerful of the two evils

O come on guyz, you kno that VOldemort would just come in and Avada Kadavra both of them dead. LOLZ
Voldemort is just watching this play out with a bag of popcorn
Ditto you are hilarious,

Why wouldn't he know? He's mentally connected to every single one of his subjects.
not if his subjects break off. Remember, most of his servants want to be free of him, just lack the will. Sauron can give them a little help, and now they work for a guy who gives better dental

Yes necessarily, in fact. Saruman was misguided into thinking that he could fight Sauron, when in fact he was merely doing Sauron's dirty work. This was possible because the Rohirrim and the Gondorites were mutual enemies of Sauron and Saruman. in this case, the Lich King and Sauron are confronting each other directly. Defeating Sauron is his only goal, and in the absence of third parties, Ner'zhul cannot be tricked in the same way Saruman was.
1. ner'zhul's minions can
2. Well, sauron could give him a ring. It was orginally ment for some dwarf dude, but works just as well for them

The Lich King has arguably more raw power than Sauron, which would render him immune to Sauron's machinations, in the same way that it renders Morgoth immune.
what raw power? He controls undead and lots of them and can use some personal magic. What other raw power does he have?

We don't know that.. they could simply be really, really good farmers. Volcanic ash makes for a very fertile area, and just because Tolkien did not bring up farms does not mean they do not exist.
they do exist, southern mordor is quite fertile, but that is for his human servants or only a small amount for his orcs.
hell, the orcs can eat the zombies. So arthas does not gain troop every time an orc dies, the other orcs eat him

In that situation Arthas has an awful lot of options to get into the fortress.

1. Dragons. Lots and lots of dragons. Swarm the fortress with them.
in his own tower? Sauron will shoot them down, the nazgul are at their greatest power, and will bring them down, they will be swarmed by bats, flies, and Cerbian, and many are dead already from the fight it takes to get to the dark tower. Not to mention taht the tower is so high that the orcish arrows will bring them down (I've played Warcraft, i know that works) and sauron has lots of orcs.

2. Offensive magic, being balsted across the cavern. The walls would be unsafe to any defenders, lest they have thier souls ripped asunder by necromancy, or their bodies ripped assunder by frsot magics.
shoot back. 100 orcs per necromancer is a good deal, and the fortress has lots of of towers, walls, windows and slits to shoot from. Or just use the lava from the cayon or mount doom. And when all the dragons are dead, the nazgul will take care of them

3. Nerubians. giant bridges of spider web would criss cross the cavern. Assaults would take place on Saurons forces by elite spider warriors.
lava, burn the webs. Or if that doesn't work, sauron will use the ring to burn it himself.
and arthas has limited amounts of nerubians, the don't reproduce, and many have been killed by this point. every nerubian killed is lost forever

4. The killing and raising of forces within the fortress.
considering sauron will raise his own guys as lesser wraiths, and their are no necromancers inside, how does this work?

5. The possibility of leading elite heroes into the fortress.
the alliance tried that and they failed, and they were armed with sauron's weaknesss (good guy magic)

6. Abominations ripping the gate to shreds.
after crossing a river of lava, and beinging filled with flaming arrows? Smart idea that

7. A horrible plague killing off the vast swathes of enemy troops.
how does it get in?

8. Frost magic. The creation of bridges across the chasm out of ice. Sustained through the magics of the liches.
It is built of freaking lava? How the hell will frost work?

indeed. It didn't. Even though the Last Alliance of Men and Elves had none of the many options under the Lich King's disposal, they nonetheless succeeded in driving Sauron out of Barad-Dur, to do battle with them on the plain of Dagorlad.
1. the last alliance had good guy magic, and were uncorruptable
2. Sauron came out

Oh, and you forgot one more thing, Selrahc: the Lich King, in addition to numerous corporeal undead, is also in command of incorporeal undead, like Banshees. They could simply float through the walls and wreck havoc on Sauron's army.
sauron has them to, the silent watcher, the lesser wraiths, the evil spirts of angmar and mordor, and the phamtoms of the dead marches
Oh and by the by, sauron can raise his own guys as phatoms of the dead marches

There is also the very real possibility of the Orcs being immortal, since they are, at heart, Elves.
the orcs of Cirth ungel remember the last alliance, so they don't seem to die of old age
from,
EE

Rutee
2007-12-01, 07:45 PM
The lich king has already loss control of his forces once, he demostrated that not only is his control not absolute, it is breakable, and once broken it can't be fixed and the freed undead are really pissed
Name one instance where Sauron's men openly rebelled or his control was totally lost other than the destruction of the ring
Are you aware of the circumstances he lost control? Illidan cast an uber spell that /was destroying Northrend itself/. It wounded the Lich King (Inasmuch as a huge block of Ice can be wounded) and he began bleeding magic for a time until he fused with Arthas.


1. The fact is, they still need women to finish the WK
No, they need something that can, through wordplay, be classed as a non-man. I'm pretty sure that's the entirety of his forces, through varying tricks of wordplay. Plus, he /does/ have females (Not that the Prophecy specifies women.. just that he won't fall to the blade of a Man); Behold:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Grand_Widow_Faerlina
http://www.wowwiki.com/Maexxna
http://www.wowwiki.com/Lady_Blaumeux
http://www.wowwiki.com/Baroness_Anastari
And that's just 2 of his fortified locations. In fact, that gives him more women under his command then Rohan :D

2. Your right about the death knight Nazgul ratio, however two things,
a) nazgul have flying steeds
B) if each nazgul brings down three death knights before dying, the nazgul come back, the death knights don't
Actually, no, there are far more Death Knights then there are Nazgul. I think there's a 3:1 of confirmed Death Knights simply on Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms; We haven't seen his forces at Northrend yet, and I sincerely doubt that's the sum and total of their number on Kalimdor/Eastern Kingdoms, Blizzard just saw no need to make more mobs then that :P


But Arthas was almost killed by Illedan alone, while Sauron was defeated by 6 people, four of whom were some of the oldest and most powerful elves, and the two greatest men of the ages, armed with muiltible magical items.
Illidan is pretty damn powerful at this point; See above. He just about broke a /continent/. Given who he's fought and beaten in the past, I would not be surprised if Illidan himself was around Sauron's level (But I don't think he has nearly so many forces) and that was *Arthas*, not *Ner'Zhul*, who now has the benefit of Arthas' Melee mastery on top of his own power.


The LK's tatical flaw
Not spreading his forces out properly (he let Illidan get in behind his army)
Sauron's tatical error
Overestimating the intellegence of Gandalf, underestimating the compatence of a three foot tall hobbit and a three foot gardener. Yeah......
I wouldn't really call that a tactical error. In letting Illidan get to the Frozen Throne, Arthas fought him from right next to the Throne.. where the Lich King could properly restore his power and put him back on par with Illidan. And uh, we've never really seen SAuron's tactics, I'm pretty sure. He's been in hot wars about as long as Ner'Zhul, and he won about as many of them, but we don't get to see the specifics of the battle.


He was Morgoth's second, he also kept Morgoth's forces alive during the war of lamps, were the valar were directly involved


1.The ancients are weaker than the Maliar, just to point that out. The ancients are clearly described as being killable, the Maiar are not
2. Agamaggan was destroyed by millions of demons who wielded divine class magic, nothing compared to the Lich king
3. Archimonde at full power and literally millions of demons took him down? Yeah...................both of which the Lich king lacks
4. Aviana was also killed by hoards of demons, and she was a lesser ancient
hell, she isn't even dead (read the rest of that link)
5. also die fighting millions of demons,
6. a lesser demi god, who is killed in a weaken state by demon touched orcs led by the greatest orc hero of the age and even then he puts up a fight
7. he is in his weakest state ever, and is still one of the hardest wow bosses
8. death wing isn't dead
How do you miss the entire friggin point of the post? Honestly, the snark was GLARING. Hell, even if the links weren't there, it was clear that I wasn't admitting you were right; I was admitting there was no amount of logic that I could present that would actually get you to admit that you were wrong. Lord and tailor, I know it can be hard to read tone on the internet, but that's just ridiculous.

1. We're talking about an inter-universe fight; Saying something is unkillable is idiotic in this day and age of fiction; All it means is nobody near you is capable of it.
2. Uh, said demons now fear Ner'Zhul's power and have struggled, and failed, to contain him. Isn't that /better/ then having those demons?
Actually I could keep doing this, but suffice it to say that you've missed the point. The point was "No, the Malar and Vaiar are not unkillable; They're divine class beings, sure, which makes them really cracking hard to kill, but they're not unkillable. Oh, and yes, my bad, Deathwing isn't dead. My entire point on deities in fiction not actually being immortal in the true sense of the word is completely invalid. Yes sirree bob. Those other links? I SEE NOSINK.


but not worried enough to send troops after him, i think it is more they dont' want to put up with him along with all of their other enemies
They got hostile troops on their doorstep. That's the entire point of the Burning Crusade expansion. I'm pretty sure they've got other factors to consider.


1. Sauron at full power. He has had vampires with him at full power (his power prior to his loss of the ring)
2. He was the second biggest bad
Uh, okay. And Kil'Jaeden was the second biggest bad in his first age. And it seems to me that he may (or may not, it's debatable, as I can't find the exact quote that says "Yes, Arthas is the most powerful being in the Warcraft-verse" at the moment) be weaker then Ner'Zhul.


against a shambling corpse?
Where the Lich King actually has presence, he uses Ghouls as the bulk of his foot soldiers, which aren't shambling corpses. They're actually quicker then Knights on horseback (Probably not Rohirrim, though). Shambling Zombies seem to be the result of necromancer rush jobs, mostly.


i can only think of the spider dude, and Kel'thuzad, both of whom are highely corruptable. Who else?
Uh, no. Just, no. They're Nerzhy's, under lock and key. Notwithstanding that they've been corrupted into loyalty to him, he's got presence in their minds already.

Now, I will point you (again) to Naxx (http://www.wowwiki.com/Necropolis_Naxxramas), and a new link, The Scholomance (http://www.wowwiki.com/Scholomance). If you're going to ask a question, I'm going to have to ask you to read the answer.

Out of vague curiosity, where does this nonsense of the Lich King not corrupting anything come from anyway? Seeing as the Blight that exudes from mere undead buildings destroys the land and vegetation, and spreads very quickly, notwithstanding the fair number of examples of him doing so in his history.

EvilElitest
2007-12-01, 08:13 PM
EE's rant part III

Very well, since their natural habitat is Northrend, land of freezing storms.

Gargoyles are made of rock. Destroyers are beings of energy. Zeppelins have armour plating.
wind, blood wind
A dragon who's rotting wings are being blown against by incritable powerful evil winds will not fly
Zeppelins we know don't fly well in even the slightly windy areas
Gargoyles will ether be destroyed by the storm, or shot down
And destroyers shut down and consume magic of the enemy.


And if its a combat without magic, my money is on the force that isn't inside the fortress constructed on foundations of magic.
and the walker corpses?
also, Baradur was build normally. It just can be brought back with magic should it ever be destroyed

I think the fact that Sauron is outnumbered by at least 100 to 1 in numbers of spellcasters, means hes going to get overwhelmed.
casters who can't cast. Yeah, really dangerous that. And his casters are so much more powerful

And you build an ice bridge across, in order to get at and rip up the walls. More entrances. More places to put your numbers advantage to bear. More corpses to animate
build them with what? Without them melting? Without magic? how the hell does that work?

Spirits aren't going to be the majority of the defenders though. Most of these are just general strategies, not meant to defeat every single defender. Of course the plague won't affect the Ringwraiths, or spirits. But it sure would decmate the orcs and humans.
Sauron can make his dudes immune to plauge, hell he can send one to his enemies, the few human servants of the lich king are in trouble

Powerful spellcasters are maintaining the bridges. they aren't natural
1. no magic
2. Even if they could somehow use magic, it is weakened by his very presense
3. Fire beats ice, a lot
4. If the casters are on the briges, then they can't be anywhere else
5. How do the get them across the chasm? I mean in order to normally build a bridge you have to have support on both sides, and that isn't going to work
6. If worst comes to worst, hundreds of thousands of orcs will fire arrow it.

if Sauron shows himself, then he'll be painting a giant target on his head.
1. he can just make mount doom destroy the bridges
2. What are they going to hit him with?

Doesn't really matter. There are hundreds, thousands tens of thousands of spellcasters. Dispelling will be like spitting on an inferno.
proof?

So Arthas has some new undead giant spiders....

They won't make a difference anyway, because to get ot a place they are needed, they will have to get through the massive army that is laying seige to the fortress
they will act as hit and run agents. They will wait behind until they spawn a large army then attack. Do you have any idea how many spiders that would be?
All this time, the Lich king is being corrupted

Truckloads of necromancers. Some of whom are of incredible power, against one guy who is nowhere near as good as raising a quick undead army as they are.
how do they raise the dead when the dead are on the other side of the massive chasme and inside the fortress?

Sauron is a caster of immense raw power, but he wasn't a very good necromancer. He couldn't animate corpses as quickly or as easily as even the lesser necromancers.
He was called The Necromancer. Normal necromancer create zombies, he created the barrow wights and the phantoms.

They have magical items capable of teleportation. They have seige engines that can knock big chunks out of stone, or monsters that can do the same. They have flying transports that can tkae you into the broken bits.

1. Ok, a few guys inside a fortress against hundreds of thousands and sauron himself. Great idea
2. Sauron has catapults as well, most likely more of them and they are in a defensive position
3. The fliers have been countered

Those things will all be being taken care of. Gargoyles and Dragons are attacking the tower itself, at all levels. Seige engines are shooting stuff. And spellcasters are killing everything in range.
arrows take out lesser dudes, his own siege engines take out enemy weapons, his own flyers and the weather takes out flyers (if any are left by the time they get to the dark tower) and he takes out casters

So yeah, the armies of abominations will be able to get to the gate. Even though they take casualties. They are giant flesh golems, who are superstrong. They can rip up the doors
drop the bridge, they fall to their death into lava. Ok, no way across

Nope. you get the plague just from being near the undead, and it spreads quickly.
wrong you get the plauge by eating tainted meat. Provide me with a source proving otherwise

Lightning bolts don't work very well on dead flesh.
they work in Warcraft perfectly well


Lava would hurt, but these are dragons. Immensely tough creatures
dude, lava burn through anything. Anything, and these guys rely on frost magic.

Right. Adamant, not adamantine.

So that pretty much eliminates any usage for conventional forces. Go go incorporeal undead, teleporters and long range spell casters.
1. Takes over undead
2. Has his own undead to counter them
3. No magic
4. Kills anyone who comes in personally

Yes. A human can shrug that off if they're lucky.

Lightning breaks your nervous system, it doesn't annihilate the body. To kill the undead, you need to break the body.

then why does it work in WOW?
They have the Lich King on their side. He'll find a way, just as Elendil and Gil-Galad found a way.
they didn't use magic, just good magical weapons that are specific made to be anti sauron (and you need to use good guys to make these)

On an another note, in WC, guns and cannons have been invented. If, say if, Arthas would fail to defeat Sauron's fortress by conventional means, he could just animate couple hundred engineers and make them work day and night until he has some machineguns, giant cannons and bombs. Beats the hell out of throwing rocks, anyway.
but he has never used, or shown that he knows how to make them

Gods stopped being immortal 30 years ago in fiction. They've been successfully killed despite claims of immortality for far too long for any claim ever of "I can not die in combat" to still hold an effect.
maybe in warcaft, not in Tolkion's world

It's coming up here because, as Artemician has pointed out, the Lich King is feared by people who, while not deities in name, have killed deities in the past, and thus, we can surmise, are deities in power
yet he has never killed, defeated, or even confronted any one these beings

Y'all on Tolkien's side have been putting way too much stock in titles. Sauron can demonstrably be defeated. I stopped hearing "I can not be killed" after the umpteenth teenage boy killed the embodiment of absolute evil in his universe for the umpteenth time precisely after hearing that statement.
1. Sauron can be defeated, not killed
2. What happens on other fantasy worlds isn't remotly releveant

They fly when it is storming that heavy already dude; Seriously, Northrend has constant ice storms. This is /fantasy/. If you're going to contest /this/ on grounds of "Modern anything can't do it", you're going to need to start explaining how Sauron creates Orcs when modern tech can't spawn things that fast. They fly in storms that ground aircraft already. Ball's in your court, hon.
ok, they fly by magic, sauron's storms are magic, your point
By the by, nice to see another southerner

Who's to say the LK's presence won't tell his AMF to bugger off by itself?
because beings more powerful than he in direct power couldn't

Who's to say that his top lieutenants, who've destroyed, corrupted, or beaten handily artifacts of deity-level power (The Sunwell, before you even begin to press), won't just laugh it off and keep casting?
he was dropped into it, not i really don't think that is an epic man vs. artifact fight there

Says. Who? Notwithstanding that you seem to have a lot of contradiction. You can believe things beating modern tech when they're Sauron's (What with the "Tanks couldn't breach Barad-dur", but when the LK does it, you seem to have problems accepting it. Why the discrepancy?
well Sauron lives in a massive over the top god level fortress while LK lives in an ice cave, sauron builds a the black gate, and Arthas doesn't even have a gate, yeah i'm going to give this to Sauron

Dude, Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde make Sauron look like a wuss (And Kil'Jaeden /does/ have mental manipulation as one of his strong points) and they couldn't /ever/ sustain Mind Control on the Lich King. What makes you think Sauron is going to mind crush him?
How so?
And nether one of these guys have ever confronted the LK, Archimonde was killed by a tree (smooth there) and Kil'jaeden hasn't entered azeroth yet

Diamond is incredibly hard...the hardest known natural substance, in fact. However, diamond is extremely brittle. That's how they break large diamonds into smaller pieces--all they have to do is hit it at the right angle with a hammer and chisel and it'll shatter into two halves, no problem. If Barad-Dur was indeed made of black diamond, then firstly Sauron isn't such a brilliant engineer as everyone seems to think, and secondly, a few catapaults lobbing boulders at it should be quite enough to generate a few breaches.
it seems to be made out of the same material as Sauraman's tower

I also freely admit that if the Lich King manages to kill Sauron once, its as good as a perma-kill. I believe I said this back on page one. It cannot be denied however, whatever the mortality of gods in other settings, that Sauron is immortal and unkillable. He can be rendered harmless and powerless, but he cannot be killed. He alse never said he was unkillable right before being done in by a teenager with a mysterious past.
not quite a permi-kill, if Sauron's forces can keep the LK from getting the ring, he can come back in a lesser form (by lesser, i mean his form during the LOTRS book)

As I have posted actual arguments and comparisons, and I have been met with lulzSauron on a consistent basis, including by you, despite claims to the contrary, I have very little impetus to continue posting real arguments. Go back to them and examine them, and properly respond to them, and I'll go back to doing it.
sadly, some of your sources don't check out (we have proven that dragons are effected by lighting and lava, we know that that plauge thing is false though that wasn't you, you have yet to prove arthas' corruption or anti corruption powers ect)

Raistin Majere (see? I'm conceding the fight to a mere mortal)
i wouldn't call that an auto win, but i agree, he could very well defeat Sauron
D
on't forget, he has lost control over a sizeable amount of undead before and is unable to simply take control back.
thank you
from,
EE

EvilElitest
2007-12-01, 08:43 PM
EE's rant IV

Are you aware of the circumstances he lost control? Illidan cast an uber spell that /was destroying Northrend itself/. It wounded the Lich King (Inasmuch as a huge block of Ice can be wounded) and he began bleeding magic for a time until he fused with Arthas.
ok so this proves
1. Should the LK be put under personal stress, his guys can slip from his control
2. Should his magic dominating his servants be cut off the become free will (hey sauron is good at anti magic, sweet)
3. Should something damage the frozen throne his guys can break off
4. Should any sort of magic interfere with his control in any manner, his guys can break off
5. If magical assults hurt him, they will allow his guys to break off. So sauron fights the LK, he just needs one good hit and the LK's losses have his guys

No, they need something that can, through wordplay, be classed as a non-man. I'm pretty sure that's the entirety of his forces, through varying tricks of wordplay. Behold:
says in the section, only Eowyn (or other female) could kill him

Plus, he /does/ have females (Not that the Prophecy specifies women.. just that he won't fall to the blade of a Man); Behold:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Grand_Widow_Faerlina
http://www.wowwiki.com/Maexxna
http://www.wowwiki.com/Lady_Blaumeux
http://www.wowwiki.com/Baroness_Anastari
And that's just 2 of his fortified locations. In fact, that gives him more women under his command then Rohan :D
1. I don't think maexxna, it seems to be female
2. hey fun fact

Lady Blaumeux is the only known female death knight
so he has one girl death knight
sure he has girls, but even so, the WK is immune to any harmful effect from at least a large amount of the army Also bear in mind, to hurt the WK you first must hit him with an anti undead anti evil weapon then kill him with a women. So yes the LK can do it, it is just rather hard

Actually, no, there are far more Death Knights then there are Nazgul. I think there's a 3:1 of confirmed Death Knights simply on Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms; We haven't seen his forces at Northrend yet, and I sincerely doubt that's the sum and total of their number on Kalimdor/Eastern Kingdoms, Blizzard just saw no need to make more mobs then that :P
considering that Death knights are possible the hardest undead to make other than liches, i'm going to have to see a source to belive that. I would belive the LK having maybe double all the death knights we have seen in wow.

llidan is pretty damn powerful at this point; See above. He just about broke a /continent/. Given who he's fought and beaten in the past, I would not be surprised if Illidan himself was around Sauron's level (But I don't think he has nearly so many forces) and that was *Arthas*, not *Ner'Zhul*, who now has the benefit of Arthas' Melee mastery on top of his own power.
Illidan is very powerful, but i would put him near Gil-ad level.

I wouldn't really call that a tactical error. In letting Illidan get to the Frozen Throne, Arthas fought him from right next to the Throne.. where the Lich King could properly restore his power and put him back on par with Illidan.
but that wasn't intentional, if Arthas hadn't taken that shortcut of which he wasn't aware of earlier he would have been screwed.


And uh, we've never really seen SAuron's tactics, I'm pretty sure. He's been in hot wars about as long as Ner'Zhul, and he won about as many of them, but we don't get to see the specifics of the battle.
Oh god, Warty Goblin can you take this one, i've repeated this so many times i don't think i can manage.

How do you miss the entire friggin point of the post? Honestly, the snark was GLARING. Hell, even if the links weren't there, it was clear that I wasn't admitting you were right; I was admitting there was no amount of logic that I could present that would actually get you to admit that you were wrong. Lord and tailor, I know it can be hard to read tone on the internet, but that's just ridiculous.
But all of your points are irrelvant. Gods in Warcraft can be killed doesn't mean that gods in LOTRS can be killed, pertically because Warcraft gods are weaker. The only god in warcrafts who's death i think could effect sauron is Sargarous, and the LK can't kill him, hell it is kinda uncertain if he is dead.
So just because you can wave a few totally irrelevant points around doesn't mean you prove anything. you have proven that warcraft gods can be killed by forces other than the Lich King. I really don't think that translates into to LOTRS. So i'm going to play the lawyer here and go
"Objection, irrelevant to the case at hand"

1. We're talking about an inter-universe fight; Saying something is unkillable is idiotic in this day and age of fiction; All it means is nobody near you is capable of it.
maybe in genres of fictions, but the details vary from world to world. just because gods are killable in some worlds doesn't mean they are killable in others. Sauron can't be killed he can be reduced to a greatly weaken state, and if the ring is destroyed, he is pretty much a loser anyways, but not killed
Just because some other fantasy setting says it doesn't mean it translates.
as for "this day and age" well LOTRS wasn't written in this day and age so you point is moot as well as irrelevant.

2. Uh, said demons now fear Ner'Zhul's power and have struggled, and failed, to contain him. Isn't that /better/ then having those demons?
they haven't directly faced him. i fear a mice infestation, and i have struggled and failed to contain them. does that mean they can defeat me in a fair fight? I don't really think so. Provide me with a quote saying that Ner'zhul makes Kil'jaeden fear for his life

Actually I could keep doing this, but suffice it to say that you've missed the point. The point was

no i just understand releveance

No, the Malar and Vaiar are not unkillable; They're divine class beings, sure, which makes them really cracking hard to kill, but they're not unkillable.
well then by all means, provide me with a source of a valar or malar being killed. Please do, because if he can't prove that they are killable, then i am incline not to believe you in any way.
Oh and by the by, a source proving that malar and valar can be killed my be from Tolkion himself. The are his creation, not some other fantasy writers so in order to prove you point you going to need his word.

and yes, my bad, Deathwing isn't dead. My entire point on deities in fiction not actually being immortal in the true sense of the word is completely invalid. Yes sirree bob. Those other links? I SEE NOSINK.
no, it just means that your sources don't check out in the leastand you seem to have a bad understanding of want counts as relevant

They got hostile troops on their doorstep. That's the entire point of the Burning Crusade expansion. I'm pretty sure they've got other factors to consider
then he isn't their number one prority, he is just another enemy. he might scare them more than some of the other ones on this planet, but he is not a direct threat to the legion itself

Uh, okay. And Kil'Jaeden was the second biggest bad in his first age. And it seems to me that he may (or may not, it's debatable, as I can't find the exact quote that says "Yes, Arthas is the most powerful being in the Warcraft-verse" at the moment) be weaker then Ner'Zhu
Until i see a quote proving this, i'm going to go with the term BS
now bear in mind the LK is the final boss in the next expansion. When that expansion ends and the next one comes, that means that Kil'Jaeden is still alive and Arthas has been defeated.

Where the Lich King actually has presence, he uses Ghouls as the bulk of his foot soldiers, which aren't shambling corpses. They're actually quicker then Knights on horseback (Probably not Rohirrim, though). Shambling Zombies seem to be the result of necromancer rush jobs, mostly.
but the vast bulk of his troop seem to be zombies, ghouls seems to be a more compatent second

Uh, no. Just, no. They're Nerzhy's, under lock and key. Notwithstanding that they've been corrupted into loyalty to him, he's got presence in their minds already.
1. i didn't bring up the point of them being corrupted, that was somebody else i'm just building up on that but
2. Spider dude fought against the LK when he had his kindom, and has never been given the choice in serving his new master. If he had a choice, i am pretty sure he would want vengence
3. Kel'thuz in the end tried to break free just before his capture and ascension to a lich, and he is by nature a selfish, ambitious, power hungry bastard, so i can imagine him switching sides

Out of vague curiosity, where does this nonsense of the Lich King not corrupting anything come from anyway? Seeing as the Blight that exudes from mere undead buildings destroys the land and vegetation, and spreads very quickly, notwithstanding the fair number of examples of him doing so in his history.

to date, i have not seen him mental take control of any being without killing them an raising them first, something sauron has done many times (the exception being frostmoure and arthas, and that just proves that arthas is weak willed)
so i am of the option that he isn't very good at mental combat, as he hasn't used it in the past. Please, provide me with a relevant link (Nax and the school of evil don't strike me as at all relevent) proving that he can corrupt those who aren't already his undead slaves
from,
EE

Rutee
2007-12-01, 08:46 PM
then why does it work in WOW?
1: There's no such thing as Lightning Damage. Lightning attacks almost universally deal Nature Damage, which incorporates a lot of things
2: They don't want to nerf elemental shamans against undead. Why should they let a little thing like realism do that? I wouldn't either, in their shoes.
3: Same vein, handing that to Forsaken PCs would make UD Warriors ridiculously awesome tanks on bosses that love to use lightning, and it'd make for a pretty tangible benefit overall (Not a major one, but a very good one where it applies).
4: The thought that lightning doesn't (or 'shouldn't) actually affect undead never once occurred to Blizzard, since they've never had cause to ponder it
It's a gamist decision, nothing more; In the same vein, I wouldnt' say it really reflects on this discussion :P




casters who can't cast. Yeah, really dangerous that. And his casters are so much more powerful
Oh are they? Realy? What do the Black Numenorians do then?


A dragon who's rotting wings are being blown against by incritable powerful evil winds will not fly
You might want to tell that to the dragons then, because they're doing it every day in Northrend, and they'd probably hate to think that they're breaking the rules.


maybe in warcaft, not in Tolkion's world
No, in all fiction, as far as I'm concerned. The closest you can come to telling me anything is unkillable is Exalted's take on it; The dead elder gods of their world are dead, but not. They're around, sorta, in the heart of the underworld that was formed by their death; Powers that great couldn't just leave the world. But they're still quite dead. Gods are just not truly immortal anymore, so sorry. And yes, I will say that regardless of the Word of God. Especially in such low power settings as LotR.


yet he has never killed, defeated, or even confronted any one these beings
Why should he? It seems that what he wants is to plunge Azeroth into undeath. If he doesn't wish to expand past it, why bother going looking for Kil'Jaeden?


because beings more powerful than he in direct power couldn't
Correction: Beings you think are more powerful then he in direct power couldn't.



while that is a brillent loop hole, are these only the evil neutrals because there are no good guys in this conflict
wait a second, if there are no good guys in this fight, then doesn't that mean that all of the LK's forces who were good but being control leave, or is that just to nitpicky
It's a brilliant, but easily deconstructed, attempt at a loophole; We never once denied the existence of third parties (After all, the Black Numenorians rely on there once having been a Numenor, no?). We said no involvement. The Lich King already has the corpses from their lands; They're his. He does not require the Nerubians to involve themselves further to have more Crypt Fiends. He doesn't need the Alliance to attack him to provide him more corpses. He has those things in very high numbers. Taking WG's attempted loophole to its logical extreme would reduce it to a fight of the two powers without anyone else having ever been involved, which is a nonsequitor, given how the Lich King came to be in the first place.



arrows take out lesser dudes, his own siege engines take out enemy weapons, his own flyers and the weather takes out flyers (if any are left by the time they get to the dark tower) and he takes out casters
Dude, what? The only Fliers he has are the Nazgul. They're mighty, but their best weapons (The Black Breath) are absolutely ineffective on Sauron's forces, and they're /vastly/ outnumberred, if they take to the skies (Because there's no infantry support). Gargoyles, on that count, are anti-flying /death engines/ (Check their Melee attack power; It's pretty insanely high). Weather's a non-factor, for reasons already explained twice. I like how you pretty much said "Lolsauronwins" in direct confrontation, too (Notably with the Fliers and Siege weapons; Yes, Meat Wagons are automatically inferior to Sauron's catapults. They may actually be inferior, mind; I won't deny the possibility. But there is a complete lack of citation on why they're supposed to be so good.)


sadly, some of your sources don't check out (we have proven that dragons are effected by lighting and lava, we know that that plauge thing is false though that wasn't you, you have yet to prove arthas' corruption or anti corruption powers ect)
...You played Warcraft 3 and you need proof? THE BLIGHT! Corruption right there, AS THE PRIMARY MODUS OPERANDI FOR THE SCOURGE. And uh, nobody said that dragons were immune to lightning and lava. Just that they're tough critters to take down.


1. I don't think maexxna, it seems to be female
....Yes, Maexxna is female. IT's a spider brood mother.


so he has one girl death knight
sure he has girls, but even so, the WK is immune to any harmful effect from at least a large amount of the army Also bear in mind, to hurt the WK you first must hit him with an anti undead anti evil weapon then kill him with a women. So yes the LK can do it, it is just rather hard
You're.. nngh. It doesn't require a woman, ever. The prophecy says he won't fall by a man's hand. I can safely and accurately (from a certain point of view) say that not a single one of his forces is a man (As the ones who were once human men have long since given up their humanity). That's the fun part about prophecy. It works through wordplay.


considering that Death knights are possible the hardest undead to make other than liches, i'm going to have to see a source to belive that. I would belive the LK having maybe double all the death knights we have seen in wow.
No, they're hard in DnD, because Death Knight means something different. I'm pretty sure. In fact: http://www.wowwiki.com/Death_Knight
Notably, the second segment. They're not hard so much as 'uncommon'. 28 listed there, and we've not scratched Northrend; Further, more are trained at Naxxramas on a regular basis (Hence, Instructor Razuvious (http://www.wowwiki.com/Instructor_Razuvious)



Until i see a quote proving this, i'm going to go with the term BS
now bear in mind the LK is the final boss in the next expansion. When that expansion ends and the next one comes, that means that Kil'Jaeden is still alive and Arthas has been defeated.
Wrong; You don't beat Arthas in Wrath of the Lich King. You get in his way :D

Oh, and by the way;

http://www.wowwiki.com/Archimonde_%28tactics%29
We killed Archimonde already, dood. Now *YOU* Provide the proof that Kil'Jaeden stomps Archimonde, his equal in title, at least, into the ground.

warty goblin
2007-12-01, 11:58 PM
EE's rant IV
Oh god, Warty Goblin can you take this one, i've repeated this so many times i don't think i can manage.
EE

All over it. Can I now be General in Chief of Sauron's most glorious orc and goblin legions?

Things that Sauron has managed during various wars, in roughly chronilogical order:
1) Survived the War of the Lamps, and got Angband through it relatively intact as well. Given that the world was pretty much reduced to a charcoal briquet during this time I feel this shows excellent defensive and logistical skills.

2) Managed, repaired and expanded Angband all during the captivity of Melkor. Again, he's good at managing hellishly evil places. I'm not sure how relevant this is, but it bears pointing out anyway, since I'm doing all of this research.

3) Built and managed the fortress of Tol in Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves, which, during this time he commanded, along with vampires. He also directed the assualt that captured the island, then called Tol Sirion, from the elves.

4) He ripped the magical disguises off of Beren and his very powerful elven companion Felagund, apparently without effort, although the text of the Silmarillion is somewhat ambigious.

5) The fear of his presense is overpowering, as seen in the Beren and Luthien passage, although probably not relevant here since most undead are pretty immune to fear. Again, thought I'd point it out and let those who know these things hash out how WoW undead deal with fear.

6) Survived the War of Wrath, which, as pointed out previously by Walking Target pretty much reshaped the entire world. Again. Clearly, Sauron is a survivable dude.

7) Destroyed most of Eregion and even fought all the way through to Moria before his army was destroyed by the allied forces of Gil-Galad and one of the kings of Numenor. Its implied that Sauron was not personally present for these battles however, so its hard to tell how much of this to attribute to him personally, and how much to his overall military power.

8) After using some of the Nine to corrupt great Lords of Numenor, he actually began to destroy coastal settlements of the Numenorians.

9) Chooses not to fight the full force of the Numenorians because he is not certain of victory. The Silmarillion does not say that he fought he would lose, merely that he might not win. I draw emphasis to this point because I had missed it in my earlier readings. Anyway, why win a battle with lots of expense when you can do even better on the cheap?

10) Within three years he had the exclusive ear of the King of Numenor. For somebody who was hauled there as a captive, this shows a remarkable ability to talk. He then turns the King (Ar-Pharazon to be precise) to worshipping Melkor. This spreads throughout most of Numenor, with the exception of the House of Elendil. There's some definate corruption going on here, I know it...

11) Gets most of Numenor to actually go to war with the gods, leading to their destruction. Not bad if he can force the hand of the gods (his worst enemies) against his second worst (the Numenorians). The plan backfires slightly when the Valar sink Numenor, destroying Sauron's form. During the Valar's warning salvo of divine lightening, Sauron stands on the roof of a profane temple and counters all of their magic. Men worship him as a god. He does this after he invests most of his power in the Ring, and he's not wearing it at the time.

12) He is described as harnessing Mt. Doom as a focus for his sorcery as well. Now call me easily impressed, but using a volcano as a magical prop is pretty impressive. He also captures Minas Ithil, which becomes Minas Morgul, although how this is done is not described.

13) He does lose to the Last Alliance. However a few things of note here.
A) The army of the Last Allaince is described as being truly massive, far more powerful than the Numenorian force to which he surrendered earlier. Its actually contrasted with the Host of the Valar. Granted its said to be weaker, but not by much.
B) It takes this army seven years to convince Sauron to leave Barad-Dur and come out and fight. This siege, and the last battle on Mt. Doom, kills Anarion, Elendil, Gil-galad and lots of other powerful people.
C) Isildur is apparently corrupted by the Ring in about three minutes flat.

14) Sometime around here the Witch-King ruins Arnor. It takes most of Gondor's army and pretty much all of the Elves left to defeat him.

15) I'm probably skipping some stuff here, but I'm tired. Sauron masterminds the War of the Ring, throughout which his tactics and strategy are, to say the least, brilliant. By corrupting Saruman, he cripples Rohan, which would have fallen by the time of the Battle of Pelenor Fields. His strike against Gondor is also brilliantly multi-fascited. Not only does he send whackloads of orcs etc, but also Haradrim, Varigs from Khand, and other assorted men, and apparently a new species of troll as well. This army is given a special bunch of weapons specifically designed to destroy Minas Tirith's potent defenses. As an extra precaution he sent a vast armada of corsairs in as reserve troops just in case. He also crushed Denethor's will, crippling the defense from within as well as from without. He did all of this and still managed to keep the better part of his forces in reserve in Mordor, just in case. It took the arrival of not one, but two additional armies for Gondor to survive, and even so three of the cities' seven circles were burned. That's one army and Sauron had at least three that powerful. In short, if Aragorn hadn't destroyed the Corsairs and brought in a third army, Sauron's would have crushed both Rohan and Gonder at Pelenor Fields, despite being taken by suprise by the Rohirrim. This isn't even counting the Corsairs, the original army was winning against both the Rohirrim and the defenders of Gondor on their own.

16) His magic in his own territory is so strong it overrides all else without him even noticing he's doing it. The Vial of Galadriel doesn't work at all in Mt. Doom and Sauron is off in Barad-Dur, which, while in the vacinity, is not right next door. That's a considerable distance. He doesn't even notice this. Now I don't mean to imply that he's actually a walking AMF witha radius like that, Mt. Doom's a special place for him and his influence there is obviously magnified. Nevertheless, as seen throughout his history, Sauron is adept to say the least at foiling magic of all kinds.

And finally:
17) Not even the Power of Love and Happy Puppies can defeat him.

Oh, and Rutee, how is god-like entities' killability in later works of fiction at all relevant to a god like being from a completely different setting who is
1) Defined as not permenantly killable, and
2) Survives the destruction of a continent three times, two of them unscathed.
I'm sorry, but on this point your argument is essentially that an entity shouldn't get a canonical ability simply because it doesn't jive with your concept of meta-fantasy.

EvilElitest
2007-12-01, 11:59 PM
EE's rant V


1: There's no such thing as Lightning Damage. Lightning attacks almost universally deal Nature Damage, which incorporates a lot of things

Ok, well if lighting does nature damage, and a storm is nature, i'd go with lighting working the same way


2: They don't want to nerf elemental shamans against undead. Why should they let a little thing like realism do that? I wouldn't either, in their shoes.
ok, then lighting effects undead. i can why the designers wanted it that way (it works in Warcraft three by the way) but we know it does way


3: Same vein, handing that to Forsaken PCs would make UD Warriors ridiculously awesome tanks on bosses that love to use lightning, and it'd make for a pretty tangible benefit overall (Not a major one, but a very good one where it applies).
the point is, lightning effects undead, thus it will effect these dragons


4: The thought that lightning doesn't (or 'shouldn't) actually affect undead never once occurred to Blizzard, since they've never had cause to ponder it
It's a gamist decision, nothing more; In the same vein, I wouldnt' say it really reflects on this discussion :P

actually executor provided a perfect example on why lighting would effect undead, and quite frankly i don't care why blizzard allows it, only that they did and thus we know that Sauron's lighting will effect frost wryms



Oh are they? Realy? What do the Black Numenorians do then?
ok, all casters who dont' draw power from Sauron don't work
i can name two examples off the top of my head
1. the phial of gladrial, one of the most power good guy artifiacts in middle earth, created by (at that point) the most powerful and oldest elf left in middle earth (she was the daughter of one of the orginal elves) who wielded powerful magic and one of the elf rings didn't work in mount doom, and Sauron wasn't even trying. I mean, it just shut down, and Sauron wasn't even aware that he had done anything
2. When gandalf goes to the black gate, he comments that he can't use his powers. And that is not even Sauron's greatest place of power
oh and just one more of the air units, the Balrog, and Smaug both work for Sauron (other dragons might act as mercenaries as well)


You might want to tell that to the dragons then, because they're doing it every day in Northrend, and they'd probably hate to think that they're breaking the rules.
Northrend isn't activity trying to destroy them with weather. Give me an example of Frost wryms flying in a fierce blizzard


No, in all fiction, as far as I'm concerned.
wait, let me stop before i crack up laughing, you are telling me just because something is true in one fantasy story means it is true in all. Wow, just wow, i am really have trouble taking your seriously here, which if funny because i've respected you up till now, so please tell me that i am simple not understanding you correctly. Please please please tell me i just am making a mistake and not understanding you correctly and i am making a great mistake. Are you telling me that all fantasy follows a set of terms that are interchangeable? Aka, that gods in one world are equal to gods in another world, even if both worlds have nothing to do with eachother, have different authors and are in fact totally different.
Gods in WarCraft are vastly different from the Valar and Malar. The malar are immortal, then can't be killed. It is specifically stated that Sauron can't be killed, just reduced to a minor weaken harmless spirit. Thus it is true. Gods in warcraft can be killed.


The closest you can come to telling me anything is unkillable is Exalted's take on it;
Ok, maybe you are talking something crazy. Tolkion said that the Valar and Malar are unkillable. Prove to me, Prove to me please that they can be killed. Not banished, not weakened, not losing their mortal form, not gaining mortality (like the Balrogs) acually killed. Because until you do, exalted, Wow, FF, or anyother author's take on it is irrelevant because that is not tolkion's work.


The dead elder gods of their world are dead, but not. They're around, sorta, in the heart of the underworld that was formed by their death; Powers that great couldn't just leave the world. But they're still quite dead.

Sound fun in that world. But sorry, isn't relevant in this one.
Gods are just not truly immortal anymore, so sorry. And yes, I will say that regardless of the Word of God. Especially in such low power settings as LotR.
I'm having a really hard time writing this, because i'm going to break it to you
The powers vary from author to author. In different settings, different rules. In tolkion's world, Sauron is literally unkillable (unless you destroy the universe itself i suppose?). That is how it goes. Unless you can provide proof that he can die, he can't die just be greatly weakened. Mind providing me with that prove.


Why should he? It seems that what he wants is to plunge Azeroth into undeath. If he doesn't wish to expand past it, why bother going looking for Kil'Jaeden?
Because Kil'Jaeden directly opposes him. He just can't find him. Now we know that
1. The demons want Arthas dead, because he interfers with there plans
2. They have attempted to kill him and have failed
3. They have not directly faced him (with the exception of three dreadlords) and the scarlet crusade
4. Arthas hasn't faced ether Arimond or Kil'Jaeden ever.
5. None of his feats compare to them (Ariamond killed a demi god, Arthas has not)
6. Thus, a direct conflict between the two would be uncertain, as the winner would be unknown
7. Thus you can't claim he is more powerful than the Burning legion, or its leaders because they have never faced off

Correction: Beings you think are more powerful then he in direct power couldn't.
please back this up

It's a brilliant, but easily deconstructed, attempt at a loophole; We never once denied the existence of third parties (After all, the Black Numenorians rely on there once having been a Numenor, no?). We said no involvement. The Lich King already has the corpses from their lands; They're his. He does not require the Nerubians to involve themselves further to have more Crypt Fiends. He doesn't need the Alliance to attack him to provide him more corpses. He has those things in very high numbers. Taking WG's attempted loophole to its logical extreme would reduce it to a fight of the two powers without anyone else having ever been involved, which is a nonsequitor, given how the Lich King came to be in the first place.
touchie


Dude, what? The only Fliers he has are the Nazgul. They're mighty, but their best weapons (The Black Breath) are absolutely ineffective on Sauron's forces, and they're /vastly/ outnumberred, if they take to the skies (Because there's no infantry support). Gargoyles, on that count, are anti-flying /death engines/ (Check their Melee attack power; It's pretty insanely high). Weather's a non-factor, for reasons already explained twice. I like how you pretty much said "Lolsauronwins" in direct confrontation, too (Notably with the Fliers and Siege weapons; Yes, Meat Wagons are automatically inferior to Sauron's catapults. They may actually be inferior, mind; I won't deny the possibility. But there is a complete lack of citation on why they're supposed to be so good.)
1. Acually he has more fliers, he has swarms of bats (during the battle of five armies the bats literally blotted out the sky, thousands of murders of crows, giant crows (Cerbian of Dunland) giant bats, other fel beasts, the Balrog, Smaug, Dragons (at least some work for him, the ones who destroyed the dwarven kindoms) incorporable spirits, swarms of large flies from mordor, massive massive massive amouts of archers and siege weapons, and sauron's magic


...You played Warcraft 3 and you need proof? THE BLIGHT! Corruption right there, AS THE PRIMARY MODUS OPERANDI FOR THE SCOURGE. And uh, nobody said that dragons were immune to lightning and lava. Just that they're tough critters to take down.
1.yes i did, and i know that being near undead doesn't turn you into one, otherwise illidin would be dead
2. accually, your friend did. Oh an on hit from lava would most likely destroy a rotting carcass.


....Yes, Maexxna is female. IT's a spider brood mother.
I'm pretty sure it requires a human women.


You're.. nngh. It doesn't require a woman, ever. The prophecy says he won't fall by a man's hand. I can safely and accurately (from a certain point of view) say that not a single one of his forces is a man (As the ones who were once human men have long since given up their humanity). That's the fun part about prophecy. It works through wordplay.
Well your assumtion is wrong.
WK-Come not between the Nazgul and his prey. Or he will not slay thee in turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where they flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivveled mind be left naked to the lidless eye"
Eowyn- do what you will, i will hinder it if i may.
WK- "hinder me? Thou fool. No liver man may hinder me."
Eowyn-But no living man am I! You look upon a women, Eowyn am I"
"The black captain, in doubt and malice intont upon the women before him heeded him no more than a worm in the mud"
"So bassed the sword of the Barrow-Downs, work of westernesse. But glade would be he have been know its fought who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young and chief amoung their foes was the dread realm of angmar and its socercer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a would so bitter, cleaving their undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his undead flesh."
"Glorfindel, Looking into the gathering dark, said "do not pursue him! he will not return to his land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of Man wil he fall"
"But our trial of strength is not yet to come. And if world spoken of old be true, not by the hand of man shall he fall, and hidden from the Wise is the doom that awaits him."
so you defently need a women, and i'm pretty sure a living one to bring him down



No, they're hard in DnD, because Death Knight means something different. I'm pretty sure. In fact: http://www.wowwiki.com/Death_Knight
Notably, the second segment. They're not hard so much as 'uncommon'. 28 listed there, and we've not scratched Northrend; Further, more are trained at Naxxramas on a regular basis (Hence,
wow, 28. That certainly isn't uncommon, a full force of 28. That will scare me, and haunt me dreams that. Scary. 28 eight dudes. Gods, and here i said there weren't that many of them.

Instructor Razuvious (http://www.wowwiki.com/Instructor_Razuvious)
accualy it doesn't say anything about him training many of them, it seem he only have 28 outside north rend.


Wrong; You don't beat Arthas in Wrath of the Lich King. You get in his way :D
debatable, i have a quote

The Lich King is the final boss of the upcoming expansion, Wrath of the Lich King. He will likely be found at his fortress of Icecrown Citadel. According to the FAQ:

Oh, and by the way;

http://www.wowwiki.com/Archimonde_%28tactics%29

your not good at all these quotes are you?

# The Burning Crusade expansion opens the Caverns of Time to players, and the crowning event of the instance is the attempt to ensure that the Battle of Mount Hyjal goes as planned. Archimonde is an un-killable raid boss, but players fight Archimonde's army of undead and demons until the final moments of the battle
read the bold


We killed Archimonde already, dood. Now *YOU* Provide the proof that Kil'Jaeden stomps Archimonde, his equal in title, at least, into the ground.
I already did, but you ignored it.


The exact powers at the Deceiver's command are unknown. As his ultimatum to Illidan and his appearance to Ner'zhul and the orcs exemplifies, he is a master of illusions. Kil'jaeden has also shown ability to control his overall size (an ability shared by Archimonde), but that may not be the limit to his shapeshifting abilities. Though these are the only powers observed in recent years, assuming that these cantrips are the limits of his power is a grave mistake. He is credited with enslaving the Dreadlords, a feat that would have required immense cunning and awesome magic, and his rank within the Legion and the eredar are listed as higher than Archimonde's. Even prior to the eredar's transformation, Velen acknowledged that Kil'jaeden was his, as well as Archimonde's, superior in matters of the arcane.

However, Kil'jaeden's full powers lie not within the boundaries of physical and magical ability, but in the mind. His unrivaled cunning placed him first in position in the ranks of the Burning Legion, and so aptly gave him the title of the Deceiver. He managed the corruption of the orcs with very little magical expenditure, a plan executed almost entirely by manipulation
read it and weep
from,
EE

EvilElitest
2007-12-02, 12:03 AM
All over it. Can I now be General in Chief of Sauron's most glorious orc and goblin legions?
Well i'm the Black the wit of Sauron so help your self
Oh and we've allied with the church of link's hat

2) Managed, repaired and expanded Angband all during the captivity of Melkor. Again, he's good at managing hellishly evil places. I'm not sure how relevant this is, but it bears pointing out anyway, since I'm doing all of this research.

and bear in mind, the world is kinda wrecked at this point, and his magic is limitied (the trees weakened everybody)

10) Within three years he had the exclusive ear of the King of Numenor. For somebody who was hauled there as a captive, this shows a remarkable ability to talk. He then turns the King (Ar-Pharazon to be precise) to worshipping Melkor. This spreads throughout most of Numenor, with the exception of the House of Elendil. There's some definate corruption going on here, I know it...
just to play off of this'
King of the high men-i shall go and demand Sauron surrenders
elrond-there is no were sauron would surrender
Sauron-i surrender
Elrond-oh, i totally didn't see that coming, dude i must be a trap
King- Oh come on, he is the king of evil and he is surrendering? He must of finally figured out that he is uselss to the power of love and puppies
Elrond- well, just be careful
King-oh he is the king of all evil, there is not way i'll trust him
Elrond- alright, well i'll come up and check on you in three years
King-yes mother
Elrond- just don't let him talk his way out of prison
King- Oh yeah, like i'd allow the embodyment of evil out of prison
(three years later)
Elrond- hey dude, how is it hanging
King- hey elrond, you are not ghetto, never talking that way again. Anyways things are cool
Elrond- everything's cool
King- pretty much
Elrond- nothing out of the ordinary in the least
King- not realy, everything is totally ok
Elrond- ok, i just came up to check up on sauron to make sure that he was still in prison
king- Sauron? Oh him, he is gone
Elrdon- he escaped
King- hell no, i made him my cheif adviser
Elrond-WTF?
King-well we had a public trial, and he was put onto the stand. Within five min he had concived us that he shouldn't be in prison. In ten he conviced us that he was totally innocent and he was the perfect person to trust running the country. In half an hour he was my chief advister, we were all worshiping Morgoth, and he had become my high priest and conviced me taht defying the gods and sacerficing humans was A-ok.
Elrond- Are you high or just stupid
Sauron- No, i'm just that good]
Elrond- you won't get away with this
Sauron- right, well let me allow one of my servents to respond, bob
Bob- I am the middle finger of sauron
Elrond-???
Sauron-give him the message
Bob- #$%% you B#%ch. I'm running this town now
Elrond- dear god, i have lost the will life
Sauron- now go home and cry to all you little elvish friends loser. Oh and you look awful in purple
Elrond- I hope your defeated by a deformed midgit
Sauron-right, like that would ever happen
(a few years later)
Sauron-well the king is dead, i'm in charge, the gods are in despair, and i have the greatest humans on earth working for me, and i have just made the song Jingle bells illegal, so all is good
(valar drop a contient on him)
Sauron- wow, didn't see that coming


from
EE

warty goblin
2007-12-02, 12:34 AM
Well i'm the Black the wit of Sauron so help your self
Oh and we've allied with the church of link's hat

and bear in mind, the world is kinda wrecked at this point, and his magic is limitied (the trees weakened everybody)

just to play off of this'
King of the high men-i shall go and demand Sauron surrenders
elrond-there is no were sauron would surrender
Sauron-i surrender
Elrond-oh, i totally didn't see that coming, dude i must be a trap
King- Oh come on, he is the king of evil and he is surrendering? He must of finally figured out that he is uselss to the power of love and puppies
Elrond- well, just be careful
King-oh he is the king of all evil, there is not way i'll trust him
Elrond- alright, well i'll come up and check on you in three years
King-yes mother
Elrond- just don't let him talk his way out of prison
King- Oh yeah, like i'd allow the embodyment of evil out of prison
(three years later)
Elrond- hey dude, how is it hanging
King- hey elrond, you are not ghetto, never talking that way again. Anyways things are cool
Elrond- everything's cool
King- pretty much
Elrond- nothing out of the ordinary in the least
King- not realy, everything is totally ok
Elrond- ok, i just came up to check up on sauron to make sure that he was still in prison
king- Sauron? Oh him, he is gone
Elrdon- he escaped
King- hell no, i made him my cheif adviser
Elrond-WTF?
King-well we had a public trial, and he was put onto the stand. Within five min he had concived us that he shouldn't be in prison. In ten he conviced us that he was totally innocent and he was the perfect person to trust running the country. In half an hour he was my chief advister, we were all worshiping Morgoth, and he had become my high priest and conviced me taht defying the gods and sacerficing humans was A-ok.
Elrond- Are you high or just stupid
Sauron- No, i'm just that good]
Elrond- you won't get away with this
Sauron- right, well let me allow one of my servents to respond, bob
Bob- I am the middle finger of sauron
Elrond-???
Sauron-give him the message
Bob- #$%% you B#%ch. I'm running this town now
Elrond- dear god, i have lost the will life
Sauron- now go home and cry to all you little elvish friends loser. Oh and you look awful in purple
Elrond- I hope your defeated by a deformed midgit
Sauron-right, like that would ever happen
(a few years later)
Sauron-well the king is dead, i'm in charge, the gods are in despair, and i have the greatest humans on earth working for me, and i have just made the song Jingle bells illegal, so all is good
(valar drop a contient on him)
Sauron- wow, didn't see that coming


from
EE

Excellent! Now I'll have to get a sig and avatar to proclaim my new status across the boards!
And that, by the way, is one of the funniest things I've ever read. I do believe you just won all of ASDAL's cookies for that.

EvilElitest
2007-12-02, 12:44 AM
Excellent! Now I'll have to get a sig and avatar to proclaim my new status across the boards!
And that, by the way, is one of the funniest things I've ever read. I do believe you just won all of ASDAL's cookies for that.

while i should blame you for gaining 150 pounds, these cookies are just soooooooooo good
oh, sorry ditto
did i win the internet
from,
EE

Executor
2007-12-02, 01:01 AM
EE, that was awesome. You should like, get a trophy, or some such, for that. Hilarious...ness.

EvilElitest
2007-12-02, 01:08 AM
EE, that was awesome. You should like, get a trophy, or some such, for that. Hilarious...ness.
Could i be in your sig? That is reward enough for me

I'd go into you sig myself but i now way 460 pounds after eating a massive amount of cookies

still, imagine this the black gate open, a dark figure come out and says
"I am the embassy's of Sauron, come to deliver a message"
[Gives agargorn and company the finger]
"that is all"
goes back in side, the gate shuts behind him, and they start playing annoying music over to the defenders
Oh but if you join the Sauron league and Church of link's hat
from,
EE

Executor
2007-12-02, 01:14 AM
There you go

EvilElitest
2007-12-02, 01:17 AM
Sweeeeeeeeeet, i won the internet
join the church of link's hat, we always can use more members for vs. threads
from,
EE

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-02, 01:26 AM
Rutee: I have one question, and one question only.

How do you propose the Lich-King would kill Sauron? What, exactly, is the process of killing an immensely powerful warrior who kills lesser men by his presence alone, kills an immensely powerful hero by touching him, and slaughters entire waves of trained, intelligent, battle-hardened soldiers with a sweep of his mace?

Artemician
2007-12-02, 01:36 AM
<Lightning affecting the undead>

Frankly, amongst Sauron's host of powers, the power to summon lightning doesn't strike me as particularly relevant, or scary. Any half-bit mage can summon lightning, the difference is whether the lightning will make a sufficient impact on the battle at all.

Lightning didn't stop the Numenoreans, and it won't stop Dragons. Dragons are far too powerful for that.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Dragon


ok, all casters who dont' draw power from Sauron don't work
i can name two examples off the top of my head
1. the phial of gladrial, one of the most power good guy artifiacts in middle earth, created by (at that point) the most powerful and oldest elf left in middle earth (she was the daughter of one of the orginal elves) who wielded powerful magic and one of the elf rings didn't work in mount doom, and Sauron wasn't even trying. I mean, it just shut down, and Sauron wasn't even aware that he had done anything
2. When gandalf goes to the black gate, he comments that he can't use his powers. And that is not even Sauron's greatest place of power
oh and just one more of the air units, the Balrog, and Smaug both work for Sauron (other dragons might act as mercenaries as well)

The Lich King managed to defy Kil'Jaeden. Don't underestimate his ability to do the impossible. He was *the* most powerful Orcish Shaman, Warlock and War Leader. And when he was imprisoned in the Frozen Throne, "he felt his consciousness expand ten thousand fold". He's definitely more powerful than Luthien, and possibly more powerful than Sauron himself too.


Northrend isn't activity trying to destroy them with weather. Give me an example of Frost wryms flying in a fierce blizzard

There isnt' a need to. We're talking about former Blue Dragons here, the same Dragons who were tasked by the Titans with maintaining the Aspect of Ice. They fear Ice about as much as Sauron fears Fire. That is, none at all.


Gods in WarCraft are vastly different from the Valar and Malar. The malar are immortal, then can't be killed. It is specifically stated that Sauron can't be killed, just reduced to a minor weaken harmless spirit. Thus it is true. Gods in warcraft can be killed.

Rowanomicon stated earlier, that defeating Sauron, while it might not kill him, constitutes a win for the other party by default. He may not be truly dead, but he'll only be back in a thousand years, in any case. A knock-out may not be a kill, but it is still a victory.


Ok, maybe you are talking something crazy. Tolkion said that the Valar and Malar are unkillable. Prove to me, Prove to me please that they can be killed. Not banished, not weakened, not losing their mortal form, not gaining mortality (like the Balrogs) acually killed.

The powers vary from author to author. In different settings, different rules. In tolkion's world, Sauron is literally unkillable (unless you destroy the universe itself i suppose?). That is how it goes. Unless you can provide proof that he can die, he can't die just be greatly weakened. Mind providing me with that prove.

Again, I direct you to what I said above. The Lich King doesn't have to kill Sauron. He just has to win.


Because Kil'Jaeden directly opposes him. He just can't find him. Now we know that
1. The demons want Arthas dead, because he interfers with there plans
2. They have attempted to kill him and have failed
3. They have not directly faced him (with the exception of three dreadlords) and the scarlet crusade
4. Arthas hasn't faced ether Arimond or Kil'Jaeden ever.
5. None of his feats compare to them (Ariamond killed a demi god, Arthas has not)
6. Thus, a direct conflict between the two would be uncertain, as the winner would be unknown
7. Thus you can't claim he is more powerful than the Burning legion, or its leaders because they have never faced off

It is indeed true that the Kil'Jaeden and Arthas have never faced off. However, the fact that Kil'Jaeden, the master manipulator and Deceiver cannot control the Lich King tells us something about the Lich King's cunning and power.[/quote]


1. Acually he has more fliers, he has swarms of bats (during the battle of five armies the bats literally blotted out the sky, thousands of murders of crows, giant crows (Cerbian of Dunland) giant bats, other fel beasts, the Balrog, Smaug, Dragons (at least some work for him, the ones who destroyed the dwarven kindoms) incorporable spirits, swarms of large flies from mordor, massive massive massive amouts of archers and siege weapons, and sauron's magic

Flies? Bats? Crows? These small fry are nothing before Gargoyles and Frost Wyrms. Let's move on to talk about the things that really pose a threat:
a) Dragons. The Lich King has more Frost Wyrms than Sauron has Dragons.
b) Balrogs. Balrogs are grounded creatures. They cannot interfere actively with creatures flying above.
c) Archers. Good luck piercing undead sinew with arrows that are shooting nonballistically (and therefore losing a great deal of speed to gravity). More likely the arrows will rain back down amonst their own comrades.


1.yes i did, and i know that being near undead doesn't turn you into one, otherwise illidin would be dead
2. accually, your friend did. Oh an on hit from lava would most likely destroy a rotting carcass.

Illidan is an enormously powerful Sorceror, one of the most powerful elves in the world, and literally pulsing with Demonic energies. No doubt he has his own methods to resist the plague. Ordinary people do not.

As to lava: I'm going to have to reiterate the raw power of those Dragon buggers again. *They're* *not* *brutes*. They have mastery over the Arcane, they police the world that the titans made, and they are *friggen* powerful.

Frost Wyrms are not rotting carcasses. They are the skeletal remains of ancient dragons animated by necromantic power. A powerful wyrm like Saphiron is on a power level on par with a Ringwraith. They dont' go down easy.



I'm pretty sure it requires a human women.

*WK-Come not between the Nazgul and his prey. Or he will not slay thee in turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where they flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivveled mind be left naked to the lidless eye"
Eowyn- do what you will, i will hinder it if i may.
WK- "hinder me? Thou fool. No liver man may hinder me."
Eowyn-But no living man am I! You look upon a women, Eowyn am I"
"The black captain, in doubt and malice intont upon the women before him heeded him no more than a worm in the mud"
"So bassed the sword of the Barrow-Downs, work of westernesse. But glade would be he have been know its fought who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young and chief amoung their foes was the dread realm of angmar and its socercer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a would so bitter, cleaving their undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his undead flesh."
"Glorfindel, Looking into the gathering dark, said "do not pursue him! he will not return to his land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of Man wil he fall"
"But our trial of strength is not yet to come. And if world spoken of old be true, not by the hand of man shall he fall, and hidden from the Wise is the doom that awaits him."
so you defently need a women, and i'm pretty sure a living one to bring him down

I didn't detect any talk about living human women in the Lich King's speech. It is simply said that "No man" can impede him. No man. The Lich King has non-men in abundance: Nerubians, Banshees, Death Knights, Abominations, Liches, Wyrms, Gargoyles just to name a few.

As to the other point, above the Barrow-Blade: the Barrow Blade was a sword forged by the Master Smiths of Gondolin, and imbued with anti-Undead enchantments. I do not think that the Runeblades of Death Knights will be anything inferior to this. In fact, they may be the greater.


That certainly isn't uncommon, a full force of 28. Scary. 28 eight dudes. Gods, and here i said there weren't that many of them.

accualy it doesn't say anything about him training many of them, it seem he only have 28 outside north rend.

He's an instructor. Instructors train people. In any case, http://www.wowwiki.com/Death_Knight_(hero_class) tells us that Death Knights are going to be trained in great numbers.


(Whether or not one kills the Lich King)
debatable, i have a quote

This fact is unknown, given from what information we have at this point in time. When WotLC comes out, we will know for sure whether we really kill Ner'zhul, or merely impede him.


your not good at all these quotes are you?
(Unkillable Archimonde?)

This blatantly contradicts what http://www.wowwiki.com/Archimonde_(tactics), which mentions the "World First Kill", as well as talking about what loot can be gotten from Archimonde after he is slain.

We need an expreienced WoW player to come and clarify.


read it and weep
(Ki'lJaeden quote)


The quote does not actually tell us that Kil"Jaeden was in fact more powerful than Archimonde in a big way. It tells us two things:
1) Kil'Jaeden is better than both Velen and Archimonde in matters of the Arcane
2) Kil'Jaeden is a very cunnign and manipulative foe.

Nowhere does it say that Kil'Jaeden would mop the floor with Archimonde in a fight.

Artemician
2007-12-02, 01:39 AM
Rutee: I have one question, and one question only.

How do you propose the Lich-King would kill Sauron? What, exactly, is the process of killing an immensely powerful warrior who kills lesser men by his presence alone, kills an immensely powerful hero by touching him, and slaughters entire waves of trained, intelligent, battle-hardened soldiers with a sweep of his mace?

I'm not Rutee, but I'm going to answer this anyway.

A: The same way Elendil and Gil-Galad did it: by beating him up with magic Swords until he turns into a fine red mist.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-02, 01:44 AM
Isn't that cute..

But it's wrong!

Sauron didn't die, obviously. Otherwise we'd be lacking the actual trilogy and those nice Peter Jackson massacres. Stabbing his body with swords doesn't kill him, so my suggestion is to try something else.

(Kudos to anyone who gets the quoted reference)

Artemician
2007-12-02, 01:47 AM
Sauron didn't die, obviously. Otherwise we'd be lacking the actual trilogy and those nice Peter Jackson massacres. Stabbing his body with swords doesn't kill him.

It doesn't need to kill him. It simply needs to defeat him. If we ever get involved in a physical fight, I can win by clobbering you on the head with a brick. Or poisoning you. Or just breaking all your limbs. It may not kill you. It has, however, put you out of commission. That would mean that I have won, even if you are not dead.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-02, 01:54 AM
Yes, but I'm mortal. Sauron is a god. You've failed to kill him, therefore, have failed to win. Nothing what so ever is stopping Sauron from just making a new body, which he has been proven capable of doing. If an entire race of gods dropping a mountain onto his body is not sufficient force to kill him, then I submit that stabbing him with swords is insufficient force to kill him as well.

Executor
2007-12-02, 01:57 AM
I believe Smaug was the last great dragon of Middle-earth, but Sauron does control the long-wyrms, fire-drakes and cold-drakes of the Withered Heath. He used them against the Dwarves of the Iron Hills and Erebor. We don't really know if he ever directly controlled Smaug, but such a feat would definetely be within Sauron's power. So, Sauron has his own dragons as well, each of which is intelligent and powerful, much like the Frost Wyrms of Arthas.

Artemician
2007-12-02, 01:59 AM
Yes, but I'm mortal. Sauron is a god. You've failed to kill him, therefore, have failed to win. Nothing what so ever is stopping Sauron from just making a new body, which he has been proven capable of doing. If an entire race of gods dropping a mountain onto his body is not sufficient force to kill him, then I submit that stabbing him with swords is insufficient force to kill him as well.

When Elendil and Gil-Galad destroyed Sauron, they caused him to go out of commission for 2000 years, while he slowly rebuilt his power base. Is that not a win?

And in all likelihood, the Lich King will still be around in 2000 year's time, ready and waiting to defeat Sauron again once he reincarnates. And he'll have an easier time of it than the Fellowship.


I believe Smaug was the last great dragon of Middle-earth, but Sauron does control the long-wyrms, fire-drakes and cold-drakes of the Withered Heath. He used them against the Dwarves of the Iron Hills and Erebor. We don't really know if he ever directly controlled Smaug, but such a feat would definetely be within Sauron's power. So, Sauron has his own dragons as well, each of which is intelligent and powerful, much like the Frost Wyrms of Arthas.

Smaug was slain by Bard, who was only one (albeit great) warrior. The Lich King has scores of servants who are on a level with Bard. Fire-Drakes and lesser drakes are defintiely powerful, but they cannot compare to the sheer power of fully matured Dragons, that the Frost Wyrms are.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-02, 02:08 AM
When Elendil and Gil-Galad destroyed Sauron, they caused him to go out of commission for 2000 years, while he slowly rebuilt his power base. Is that not a win?

Before or after they died? Before or after Sauron became The Necromancer? He never died in the sense of 'leaving the world alone'.


And in all likelihood, the Lich King will still be around in 2000 year's time, ready and waiting to defeat Sauron again once he reincarnates. And he'll have an easier time of it than the Fellowship.

Defeating him with what, pray tell? The falling apart two-thousand-year old corpses left behind after he wipes out the rest of his world? Decay, it happens. Ultimately, regardless of whether Sauron's physical body is defeated, Sauron will win. Why? Because unlike the Lich-King, Sauron can create. The Lich-King is entirely dependent on outside forces to provide his army, and without those forces he will ultimately fail.

In the end it will come down to a physical confrontation between the Lich-King and Sauron, primarily because the Lich-King's magic won't work against Sauron and Sauron's magic is too slow acting to single-out one individual and murder them. Sauron will be fighting a decayed human body that fell apart two-, three-, or even four- thousand years ago.

Guess what. I'll spoil the fight for you.

Sauron wins.

Adumbration
2007-12-02, 02:27 AM
Rutee: I have one question, and one question only.

How do you propose the Lich-King would kill Sauron? What, exactly, is the process of killing an immensely powerful warrior who kills lesser men by his presence alone, kills an immensely powerful hero by touching him, and slaughters entire waves of trained, intelligent, battle-hardened soldiers with a sweep of his mace?

I'm not Rutee either, but I can answer that. If it ever goes to single-combat, Arthas will swipe off Sauron's hand, watches Sauron go to weep in the corner (pretty much what he did when his finger was cut off), take the ring from his dead hand and double in power.

Artemician
2007-12-02, 02:28 AM
Before I say anything, I would like to remind everyone to keep this discussion civilized and cordial. Snark and sarcasm do not serve to further your point, they only serve to offend other people. Thank you.


Before or after they died? Before or after Sauron became The Necromancer? He never died in the sense of 'leaving the world alone'.

He is, however, out of the running for a lengthy period of time. If Sauron's physical body is destroyed, he has lost.


Defeating him with what? The falling apart two-thousand-year old corpses left behind after he wipes out the rest of his world? Decay, it happens.

Actually, not. Zombies may fall apart, as may mortal necromancers. Skeletons, Gargoyles, Frost Wyrms, Liches, Death Knights, Ghosts, Banshees and the Lich King's other creatures do not.


Ultimately, regardless of whether Sauron's physical body is defeated, Sauron will win. Why? Because unlike the Lich-King, Sauron can create. The Lich-King is entirely dependent on outside forces to provide his army, and without those forces he will ultimately fail.

Sauron cannot create without losing some of his power with each creation. If he creates too much, he will suffer the same fate as his master Morgoth: being forced into Mortal form and unable to reincarnate.


In the end it will come down to a physical confrontation between the Lich-King and Sauron, primarily because the Lich-King's magic won't work against Sauron and Sauron's magic is too slow acting to single-out one individual and murder them. Sauron will be fighting a decayed human body that fell apart two-, three-, or even four- thousand years ago. Sauron wins.

In the same way that a Ringwraith's body does not rot, the Lich King's physical form does not decay. His body will not fall apart.

Executor
2007-12-02, 02:31 AM
Ringwraiths don't have bodies. Their robes and armour are the only physical things about them. Take off that and they're invisible, unless you're also in their realm, the Unseen, as Frodo was on Weathertop.

Bard only killed Smaug because he could understand the speech of birds and a thrush informed by Bilbo managed to make its way to Bard and tell him about the spot right above Smaug's heart. Also, Bard had a magical Black Arrow which never missed, and I don't think Arthas has the services of Erebor to crank out Black Arrows for him. Bard was also the last heir of a royal line, which automatically makes him a heroic badass in Tolkien's world. Of course, the level of badassery depends on how noble your line once was and how few of them are left. Aragorn, for example, was an epic badass because he was the last of Elendil's line.

We also have to ask ourselves: is Smaug dead in this Versus? This is Sauron at his optimal level of power, so presumably Smaug is on his side. If that is so, then Arthas' fliers are royally f***ed because Smaug, ahem, OWNS every Frost Wyrm you can throw at him.

Artemician
2007-12-02, 02:46 AM
Ringwraiths don't have bodies. Their robes and armour are the only physical things about them. Take off that and they're invisible, unless you're also in their realm, the Unseen, as Frodo was on Weathertop.

Oh. I'm sorry for that, I'm not too clear on the specifics of Ringwriaths. Thanks for the clarification.


Bard only killed Smaug because he could understand the speech of birds and a thrush informed by Bilbo managed to make its way to Bard and tell him about the spot right above Smaug's heart. Also, Bard had a magical Black Arrow which never missed, and I don't think Arthas has the services of Erebor to crank out Black Arrows for him. Bard was also the last heir of a royal line, which automatically makes him a heroic badass in Tolkien's world. Of course, the level of badassery depends on how noble your line once was and how few of them are left. Aragorn, for example, was an epic badass because he was the last of Elendil's line.

Arthas is the last heir of a royal line too. He made sure of that personally. In addition to that, he has one of the most powerful sorcerors of all time riding in his head.

As to the black arrow, the Lich King is in possession of the formidable literature, philosophy, and arcane lore. of Azjol-Nerub, which dates back 16000 years. If he puts a mind to it, he can create artefacts similiar to black arrows too.


We also have to ask ourselves: is Smaug dead in this Versus? This is Sauron at his optimal level of power, so presumably Smaug is on his side. If that is so, then Arthas' fliers are royally f***ed because Smaug, ahem, OWNS every Frost Wyrm you can throw at him.

Not. You're severely underestimating the power of the Warcraft Dragons.

I quote:

They are very cunning and magical, using spells to complement their powerful physical capacity. Because each creature has an intimate connection with the world around it, the death of a dragon is never a simple thing; it is a metaphysical event, driven by the creatures natural connection to the spirit of the world. A dragons death can cause massive upheaval in the natural surroundings - earthquakes, surface lava explosions, a new lake flooding forth from a sudden crack in the earths crust, and so on. Even young dragons, those who have not established as close a bond to the spiritual world, still make ripples in the fabric of reality when they die.

The Frost Wyrms are raised from the skeletons in the Great Dragonblight, where the most ancient of Dragons flew to die. It is doubtful whether Smaug could take even one Frost Wyrm.

konfeta
2007-12-02, 06:16 AM
My one dip into this argument before I bow out. I realize that people enjoy debating this kind of stuff for fun; I do myself sometimes, but I urge you to look into the underlying basics of this argument.

Warcraft magic is mechanical in nature. It has a strict set of rules, explainable rules, defined rules. It is possible to quantify it and categorize it, give it qualities. In short, it governed by laws, allowing a person to accurately state how stuff in it interacts, form verseus arguments with similiar defined systems, etc. When a mage in Warcraft universe blast stuff with a fireball, its a repeatable effect with expected results.

In Lord of the Rings, magic is more "Deux Ex Machina" in kind. Personally, I would call it Plot Magic. It's there when convinient to the story. "Sauron is big bad evil". "The Witchking Is Immortal and is killed only via Prophecy". Etc. The descriptive passages in LotR are more for effect, giving colour and setting an overall theme then actually mechanically describing stuff. Look at Balrogs for whatever's sake. Talkien described an appearance, designed to strike your imagination with how utter EVIL it is. He didn't say, "Balrog's are CR 27, can lift 50 tons, sprout vestigal wings for intimidation, are N in number, immune to magics x,y,z,.".

The problem here arises, that because LotR is more centered on Plot Magic; the strength of its inhabitans and the magic overall is up to the one interpretting it. I.E., it's whatever the guy who is arguing makes it be. People arguing that Sauron is stronger then the Lich King will insert their interpretation that automatically makes Sauron win. Same goes the other way. It's basically fanboy bashing fanboy opinions. You cannot state that Sauron is this strong, or the Nazgul are that badass; even by trying to surmise power levels relative to their settings and "common sense". Simply because Tolkien didn't give numerical descriptors. He gave descriptions that are designed evoke emotion, to give a feeling of how overwhelmingly evil or strong things are.

The Witch King can, for example, for all intends and purposes, vary from simply a creature that is a tremendously strong and adept sorceror, needing a number of coincidental factors boosting the attack of it's opponents to be strong enough to wipe it out without ressurection; to a being of unfathomable evil, so great, that it could only be defeated via a prophecy or bound by an even more primal, Eviler if you will, Evil. It varies from being killable in mechanical manner of simply having a magical force stronger then it by a certain degree, to something that couldn't be killed by anything else other then Plot. Since Tolkien didn't accuratelly describe what it was other then to say "This thing is Big, Scary, and makes Men **** Their Pants" or "It made an arbitarily powerful with plot induced restrictions wizard his arbitary bitch", you can't state its power comparable to Death Knights, etc. Because when you do, you pretty much bullsh*t its power level to one that you feel is appropriate and back it up with selective "facts", regardless of what you feel its power level is.

So yeah, my point is, since the two magic systems are different in their underlying structure (one is mostly plot, other is mostly mechanical); whatever comparisons of their respective characters you make, they are basically you judging before you even begin based on how "Cool" you think it is. Without actually thinking "Sauron is cooler then Lich King, now I am gonna work up the arguments proving that he is. YEAH!". The only way this argument can carry itself forward without staying in it's degenerated "MY DAD CAN BEAT UP YOUR DAD" form is if both parties agree to actively give qualities and quantities to the Plot elements involved. And I don't mean in your head. I mean actually, in mutual agreement, lay out a set of rules tieing these two systems together. Not creating new rules in your head as you argue and state arguments thinking your opponent can read your mind and is in full agreement with the rules you laid out; but before you do the argument. A formal set of rules in which both parties agree to stick too. Otherwise you are deep in fanboism retardation.

Please, for the sake of teh internetz. It's much more interesting to read such discussions, and forces you engage your brains coming up with creative arguments that are within rules; instead of saying "NO U", "NO U', "NO U!"

warty goblin
2007-12-02, 09:30 AM
I'm not Rutee either, but I can answer that. If it ever goes to single-combat, Arthas will swipe off Sauron's hand, watches Sauron go to weep in the corner (pretty much what he did when his finger was cut off), take the ring from his dead hand and double in power.

I think you are drastically underestimating Sauron's skill in melee combat. It took 6 superhuman warriors to drop him the only time he's been defeated in melee combat. Most of these warriors were bristling with highly magical equipment. The best two of them died. From this we can intuit the following (and lest I be accused of not providing evidence, this is speculation)

He's supremely fast. Nobody who's not very very fast would even manage to kill the worst of six enemy warriors in a fight like that, Sauron scragged the best two.

He's agile: Again, you can't parry the attacks of six enemies at once, and it would have taken time to score the hits to kill Elendil and Gil-galad. Hence Sauron can dodge very,very well.

He's got insane reflexes. See above.

He's also about 10 feet tall, covered in very very good armor, scares the crap out of anybody near him, and gives off heat like an acetalyne torch. This is assuming he's stuck in his Second (and presumably Third) Age form. If he's as he was in the First Age of the Sun, he can shift shape at will.

Again, Sauron has defeated every spell ever cast at him, or in his presence.
No single mortal, however buffed, has a chance.

Zordrath
2007-12-02, 09:45 AM
I think it would be an equal match if you pit the armies of the two against each other. I'd guess Sauron's forces are superior in number, however, he only has trolls, weak orcs, one magic user (the Mouth of Sauron) and nine Elite warriors, whose special ability, however, does not affect the undead. The Lich King also has a large army of weak units (though not quite as much as Sauron, I think), but has much more "elite" creatures like Frost Wyrms.

However, if you pit the two of them against in each other in hand to hand combat, I think Sauron wins. He slew the greatest king of men of his time with one swing of his mace, and killed the greatest elven warrior by touching him. Also, he is a demigod (and the most powerful in the LotR universe), while the Lich king ist just an uber powerful mortal.

That's all just speculation, though, because konfeta is right: You cannot really compare the two worlds.

Rutee
2007-12-02, 10:04 AM
*Yawns, checks wikipedia. Bursts out laughing*
So anyway, guess what; Within the canon, apparently, *LotR Gods die*.

""Morgoth, once the most powerful being in E, had to rely on his armies in the War of Wrath, and with these armies defeated was easily captured by Enw, a Maia of much less power. Morgoth's physical body was executed as punishment and his spirit cast out of the world; such a punishment would have been impossible for Melkor at his full might.""

Note what happens; His physical body dies, and his essence, that which makes him, him, gets sent to another plane.

In DnD, we call that death. And I don't think Sauron is going to be at his full might (Assuming that's enough to halt that too) after having the tar beaten out of him.


I think you are drastically underestimating Sauron's skill in melee combat. It took 6 superhuman warriors to drop him the only time he's been defeated in melee combat. Most of these warriors were bristling with highly magical equipment. The best two of them died. From this we can intuit the following (and lest I be accused of not providing evidence, this is speculation)

He's supremely fast. Nobody who's not very very fast would even manage to kill the worst of six enemy warriors in a fight like that, Sauron scragged the best two.

He's agile: Again, you can't parry the attacks of six enemies at once, and it would have taken time to score the hits to kill Elendil and Gil-galad. Hence Sauron can dodge very,very well.

He's got insane reflexes. See above.

He's also about 10 feet tall, covered in very very good armor, scares the crap out of anybody near him, and gives off heat like an acetalyne torch. This is assuming he's stuck in his Second (and presumably Third) Age form. If he's as he was in the First Age of the Sun, he can shift shape at will.

Again, Sauron has defeated every spell ever cast at him, or in his presence.
No single mortal, however buffed, has a chance.
1. Arthas isn't mortal.
2. Guess what; Just because the LotR-verse mortals suck doesn't mean Warcraft ones do. I can think of a long, long list of mortals from non-warcraft that could beat the /stuffing/ out of him. Like the overwhelming majority of console RPG protagonists, for starters.
3. You too vastly underestimate Arthas. I don't think it'd be that easy, but yes, if we're talking single combat, that's how it's going to be done; It'd just take a lot longer.

Artemician
2007-12-02, 10:10 AM
I think it would be an equal match if you pit the armies of the two against each other. I'd guess Sauron's forces are superior in number, however, he only has trolls, weak orcs, one magic user (the Mouth of Sauron) and nine Elite warriors, whose special ability, however, does not affect the undead. The Lich King also has a large army of weak units (though not quite as much as Sauron, I think), but has much more "elite" creatures like Frost Wyrms.

Actually, if we're talking about Sauron at the height of his power, he has Fel Beasts, minor Wyrms, Vampires, Werewolves, Giant Carrion and other monstrous vermin that his master Morgoth created. 3rd Age Sauron is pretty much wussed against Sauron at the height of his power.

Still got nothing on the Lich King, though.


That's all just speculation, though, because konfeta is right: You cannot really compare the two worlds.

Yes we can. We totally can. That's why we're having this discussion, in fact. You totally can put them in a fight and see who wins. :smallwink:


*Yawns, checks wikipedia. Bursts out laughing*
So anyway, guess what; Within the canon, apparently, *LotR Gods die*.

I'm going to have to call you on that one, Rutee. Morgoth was only able to *die* in a manner like that because he expended all of his divine essence creating stuff and reshaping mountains. He burned out, and got stuck permanently in mortal form. Hence why Sauron created the One: to safeguard his divine essence and to make sure it wouldn't burn out like what happened to Morgoth.

Rutee
2007-12-02, 10:18 AM
They don't burn divine essence reconstituting themselves after death? Didn't Sauron burn divine essence in more creations then just The Ring?

And also, I can guarantee Archimonde has been killed by players.. since..

http://www.wowwiki.com/Illidan_Stormrage_%28tactics%29
Illidan Stormrage <The Betrayer> is the final boss of the Black Temple in Shadowmoon Valley. As of Burning Crusade, Illidan is the most powerful in-game boss in World of Warcraft.
And we've got videos of his death. That means he's more powerful then ARchimonde, and *Mortal* Arthas beat him (Though to be fair, it's more then possible that he too has grown in power since his retreat to Outland). It also means that Archimonde has been beaten (I'll grant, you get help from the Night Elf base on Archimonde, but that doesn't make him hit harder.)

I don't really know why I have to clarify that he's been killed; We have loot tables. That means he's not only been killed, but he's been killed enough that we know every item he drops.

warty goblin
2007-12-02, 10:27 AM
*Yawns, checks wikipedia. Bursts out laughing*
So anyway, guess what; Within the canon, apparently, *LotR Gods die*.

""Morgoth, once the most powerful being in E, had to rely on his armies in the War of Wrath, and with these armies defeated was easily captured by Enw, a Maia of much less power. Morgoth's physical body was executed as punishment and his spirit cast out of the world; such a punishment would have been impossible for Melkor at his full might.""

Note what happens; His physical body dies, and his essence, that which makes him, him, gets sent to another plane.

In DnD, we call that death. And I don't think Sauron is going to be at his full might (Assuming that's enough to halt that too) after having the tar beaten out of him.
Except for that bit about coming back at the end of time and destroying the world, or the evil he worked living on, or the fact that he was banished- "cast out" I believe the phrase was, not killed. There's a subtle difference: obverve the next two sentances closely:
"Melkor was being a little b**** and totally hogging the popcorn, so we threw him out of the house."
"Melkor was being a little b**** and totally hogging the popcorn, so we killed him."




1. Arthas isn't mortal.
2. Guess what; Just because the LotR-verse mortals suck doesn't mean Warcraft ones do. I can think of a long, long list of mortals from non-warcraft that could beat the /stuffing/ out of him. Like the overwhelming majority of console RPG protagonists, for starters.
3. You too vastly underestimate Arthas. I don't think it'd be that easy, but yes, if we're talking single combat, that's how it's going to be done; It'd just take a lot longer.

1) Human + Orc + Dark Magic = mortal with some unusual (read, extraordinary) powers. Sure he's not going to die of old age, but his essence is still based of human and orc. I think. I'm really not up on this Warcraft stuff, again, I get confused after the third name with more apostrophies than vowels, so please tell me if and how I'm wrong. I don't want to sell anybody short here, I just don't know for sure.

2) Completely and utterly irrelevent. My character in Oblivion soloed a god at fourth level, but it has exactly nothing to do with this discussion. I also feel that the comment that LOTR mortals suck is blatently false. Fingolfin soloed the most powerful god in the universe and darn near won- alone and without the Power of Love and Friendship, just the power of Being Cheesed Off. Feanor crafted the Silmarils, jewels of truly indescribable beauty, jewels worth going to war for thousands of years to retrieve. I don't think LOTR mortals are underpowered, they just are described in a very low key way and don't have fancy graphics backing them up. If you think about what they actually do however, it is pretty impressive. I'm not saying that there's not more powerful individuals out there in some fictions- I already conceeded the fight to Raistlin Majere, but LOTR folks definately don't look to bad.

3) I never speculated as to Arthas' power level, merely that he was likely screwed in combat against Sauron. Now apparently Arthas has some sort of fancy frost sword Frostmourne(?). This is definately going to be helpful, since a powerful weapon is definately needed to even try to hurt Sauron. However it also seems to rely on cold. The thing is, it takes a lot of cold to meaningfully reduce the temperature of a being who lives in a volcano- and you still have to hit. I will conceed that Arthas would best any of the Nazgul in a fight, and probably beat several at a time, but Sauron is something else entirely.

Rutee
2007-12-02, 11:18 AM
2) Completely and utterly irrelevent. My character in Oblivion soloed a god at fourth level, but it has exactly nothing to do with this discussion. I also feel that the comment that LOTR mortals suck is blatently false. Fingolfin soloed the most powerful god in the universe and darn near won- alone and without the Power of Love and Friendship, just the power of Being Cheesed Off. Feanor crafted the Silmarils, jewels of truly indescribable beauty, jewels worth going to war for thousands of years to retrieve. I don't think LOTR mortals are underpowered, they just are described in a very low key way and don't have fancy graphics backing them up. If you think about what they actually do however, it is pretty impressive. I'm not saying that there's not more powerful individuals out there in some fictions- I already conceeded the fight to Raistlin Majere, but LOTR folks definately don't look to bad.
Highly relevant; You've dismissed people on grounds of being mortal. Trying to make it back up here isn't really convincing, until you /stop/ dismissing people on grounds of mortality alone. Mortals can be Kung Fu Jesus, if the setting allows it (Not all do, nor do I hold it against a setting that doesn't; I love World of Darkness, f'rex.)


1) Human + Orc + Dark Magic = mortal with some unusual (read, extraordinary) powers. Sure he's not going to die of old age, but his essence is still based of human and orc. I think. I'm really not up on this Warcraft stuff, again, I get confused after the third name with more apostrophies than vowels, so please tell me if and how I'm wrong. I don't want to sell anybody short here, I just don't know for sure.
Conflicting definitions of mortal then, that's all. My general definition of immortal is "Won't die of natural causes", as fiction has demonstrated to me that there's no such thing as true immortality, even within fiction. "Once Mortal", for Ner'Zhul, should be unequivocal and unambiguous, and be about 100% accurate, right? It also handles what seems to be the issue with Immortal, that it implies divinity and 'true' immortality to you.


"Melkor was being a little b**** and totally hogging the popcorn, so we threw him out of the house."
I am, in fact, quite certain that he wasn't phrased as being killed. What I am saying is that saying they're unkillable only meant by, apparently, Tolkien's definition of death. His mortal coil was shed, and his spirit was tossed into another plane of existence. I'm perfectly fine with y'all not calling that dead, since from a certain point of view, it's not. His spirit, which is what counts, is still kicking, after all. Just not present.

What I am saying is that this is death by DnD terms; That is in fact, exactly what happens with 99% of all dead people in DnD-styled settings. Now, far be it from me to say that DnD is the final arbiter on what is and isn't mortality; I'm only using it because it's common ground, and references to Exalted's Malfeans would draw blank stares. My point is that I can legitimately call this a form of death (By another universe's rules, yes), even if Tolkien didn't. The only kink in there was that the spirit had to be forced out, rather then leaving on its own.. but I'm not saying he wouldn't be hard to 'kill', merely that it's possible.


3) I never speculated as to Arthas' power level, merely that he was likely screwed in combat against Sauron. Now apparently Arthas has some sort of fancy frost sword Frostmourne(?). This is definately going to be helpful, since a powerful weapon is definately needed to even try to hurt Sauron. However it also seems to rely on cold. The thing is, it takes a lot of cold to meaningfully reduce the temperature of a being who lives in a volcano- and you still have to hit. I will conceed that Arthas would best any of the Nazgul in a fight, and probably beat several at a time, but Sauron is something else entirely.
Hm... you know, I had to check that. Frostmourne is, yes, an insanely powerful weapon, but I wasn't sure if it was truly Ice-elemented or not. Warcraft III didn't really bother with elemental interaction, but it appeared to be a huge black blade, seen here:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Frostmourne_wc3.jpg
However, as we can see here:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:NEWFrostmourne_wc3.jpg
It may have properties of frost. However, judging by the stats at the bottom of this page from WoW, and the listed Warcraft RPG stuffs...
http://www.wowwiki.com/Frostmourne
I would hazard a guess that the Lich King is just making Frostmourne look cool, rather then it actually being an ice-elemental blade (And the programming certainly exists to make Frostmourne deal all-Frost damage, within WoW, so it's not a tech concern). Names aren't everything, I suppose.

Executor
2007-12-02, 11:47 AM
Not. You're severely underestimating the power of the Warcraft Dragons

I think that Smaug could take on Frost Wyrms. It took a once-in-a-lifetime shot by an extremely good archer with an enchanted, unerring arrow to bring him down. Hell, give me enough Troll Headhunters and I can bring plenty of Frost Wyrms to the ground. Tolkien's dragons are also possessing of the following traits (as stated by Wikipedia)

"...a love of treasure (especially gold), subtle intelligence, immense cunning, great physical strength, and a hypnotic power called "dragon-spell". They are extremely powerful and dangerous, though they mature very slowly. Because of this, Melkor's first attempts to use them against his enemies failed, as they had not yet become powerful enough to become extremely useful in battle.

Dragon-fire is stated as not being hot enough to melt the One Ring however four of the Dwarven Rings were consumed by Dragon-fire,"

warty goblin
2007-12-02, 11:49 AM
Highly relevant; You've dismissed people on grounds of being mortal. Trying to make it back up here isn't really convincing, until you /stop/ dismissing people on grounds of mortality alone. Mortals can be Kung Fu Jesus, if the setting allows it (Not all do, nor do I hold it against a setting that doesn't; I love World of Darkness, f'rex.)

OK, I see what you are getting at here. I agree and concede the point that mortal power level is relevant. I thought you were saying that because mortals in X setting could shatter planets with flatulence, it somehow reflected the power level of mortals in setting Y. I think you are saying that we have to analyze each setting's power level individually and that since there are settings with very high powered mortals, the possibility needs to be entertained. If this is what you are saying, I agree. However I doubt that Arthas is six times as powerful as an LOTR mortal. Given that it took six incrediably powerful mortals to destroy Sauron once, I consider this a pretty fair base line. Clearly it might only have taken 5 or 4, but we simply don't know. Hence I'll settle at a comprimise position of 4, which is pretty low honestly. Now I somehow doubt that Arthas has 4 times the melee skill of Elendil or Gil-galad Two or three times I'd buy, but would need some darn good evidence of, but not four.



Conflicting definitions of mortal then, that's all. My general definition of immortal is "Won't die of natural causes", as fiction has demonstrated to me that there's no such thing as true immortality, even within fiction. "Once Mortal", for Ner'Zhul, should be unequivocal and unambiguous, and be about 100% accurate, right? It also handles what seems to be the issue with Immortal, that it implies divinity and 'true' immortality to you.


I am, in fact, quite certain that he wasn't phrased as being killed. What I am saying is that saying they're unkillable only meant by, apparently, Tolkien's definition of death. His mortal coil was shed, and his spirit was tossed into another plane of existence. I'm perfectly fine with y'all not calling that dead, since from a certain point of view, it's not. His spirit, which is what counts, is still kicking, after all. Just not present.

What I am saying is that this is death by DnD terms; That is in fact, exactly what happens with 99% of all dead people in DnD-styled settings. Now, far be it from me to say that DnD is the final arbiter on what is and isn't mortality; I'm only using it because it's common ground, and references to Exalted's Malfeans would draw blank stares. My point is that I can legitimately call this a form of death (By another universe's rules, yes), even if Tolkien didn't. The only kink in there was that the spirit had to be forced out, rather then leaving on its own.. but I'm not saying he wouldn't be hard to 'kill', merely that it's possible.

OK, I see what you are getting at here. Sorry, I was a little slow on the uptake earlier this morning- must remember not to post before breakfast. I agree that by your definition Sauron would then be killable, although I disagree with your definition. The fact that I disagree with your definition is not relevent however. What is relevant is that it took direct divine intercession to remove Morgoth, after a war that shattered most of the world, and even after divine intercession Morgoth could not be completely removed, and he will return, because evil still existed.



Hm... you know, I had to check that. Frostmourne is, yes, an insanely powerful weapon, but I wasn't sure if it was truly Ice-elemented or not. Warcraft III didn't really bother with elemental interaction, but it appeared to be a huge black blade, seen here:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Frostmourne_wc3.jpg
However, as we can see here:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:NEWFrostmourne_wc3.jpg
It may have properties of frost. However, judging by the stats at the bottom of this page from WoW, and the listed Warcraft RPG stuffs...
http://www.wowwiki.com/Frostmourne
I would hazard a guess that the Lich King is just making Frostmourne look cool, rather then it actually being an ice-elemental blade (And the programming certainly exists to make Frostmourne deal all-Frost damage, within WoW, so it's not a tech concern). Names aren't everything, I suppose.
OK, so it looks like Frostmourne isn't an ice sword, just a normal and powerful sword stored in a block of ice in a glacer with blade that is constantly rimmed with frost. A fluff-frost sword in other words. Works for me. Call it equivilent to Narsil.

So in conclusion: we have Arthas with three times the melee skill of Elendil armed with a sword equivilent to Narsil that isn't a frost weapon, name and storage location aside. Tragically he falls just short of what it takes to beat Sauron and dies a terrible burning death after a long and hard fight. Sauron is almost certainly wounded however, which quite an acoomplishment.

Thank you for clarifying your points, I understand them much better now, I hope. Let me know if I misunderstood anything or if you disagree with my conclusions.

Rutee
2007-12-02, 01:02 PM
Hence I'll settle at a comprimise position of 4, which is pretty low honestly. Now I somehow doubt that Arthas has 4 times the melee skill of Elendil or Gil-galad Two or three times I'd buy, but would need some darn good evidence of, but not four.

Hm, I'll do my best, but bear in mind that Arthas-Ner'Zhul has not been in direct combat, so the best I could do is show Arthas' best before his fusion. However, if it helps..

The final undead campaign in WC3: The Frozen Throne is Arthas and Anub'arak (http://www.wowwiki.com/Anub'arak), and their army vs. Illidan (http://www.wowwiki.com/Illidan_Stormrage), Lady Vashj (http://www.wowwiki.com/Lady_Vashj), and Kael'thas (http://www.wowwiki.com/Kael%27thas), and /their/ armies. The rough part is figuring out whether they were actually outnumberred or not (You face 3 armies of equal size of your own in the battle, but that's partially due to game mechanics, not necessarily IC-setting-ness). Going by game mechanics, hat pretty much leaves Anub'arak to handle both armies while Arthas handles their leaders.. but in-setting and game mechanics don't match, necessarily. And Lady Vashj and Kael are no schlubs; To cut the bulk of the article out, Vashj has skill with magic and is one of the top three archers in the history of the Warcraft-verse (I think number 3... and those other 2 are still alive too >.>). Kael is her equal in combat prowess; It may not be immediately evident, from the article, but he's equal in raid progression to her, so I can surmise that they're equal in power (To be fair, the encounter with Kael is Kael + his high council, though, so perhaps he's only close, not quite there.)

I'm ignoring some of the other living legends he's killed, I suppose, but I don't think that was in single-combat, within the setting (Though Uther (http://www.wowwiki.com/Uther_the_Lightbringer) probably was, by laws of dramatic necessity.) And aside from that final battle, he isn't on record as beating multiples at once, but he's also not been in combat himself for a while, as noted.


I think that Smaug could take on Frost Wyrms. It took a once-in-a-lifetime shot by an extremely good archer with an enchanted, unerring arrow to bring him down. Hell, give me enough Troll Headhunters and I can bring plenty of Frost Wyrms to the ground. Tolkien's dragons are also possessing of the following traits (as stated by Wikipedia)
He went down to one shot? That seems to be evidence against you, really, since that one shot is (In all probability) not as good as Sylvanas, Vashj, or what's-her-face who's name escapes me, and they can't take down Frost Wyrms with a single blow.. :P

Adumbration
2007-12-02, 01:03 PM
Actually, Frostmourne is more of a soul-drainer than anything else. I'm not even sure if it was the Lich King that created it; it may be that it is older by far and only harnessed to his will, and thus also more powerful. In corruptive powers, I would judge it to be on par with the Ring, if not even more corruptive: a measly hobbit withstood against the Ring's corruptive powers, while the paragon of his faith, a man of immense power was reduced into a Death Knight under Lich King's will. (Yes, I'm talking about Frodo and Arthas.)

Also, I think that you're underestimating the Lich King greatly. If you want it on LoTR terms, it might be fitting to describe him as the incorporeal Sauron from LoTR hitching a ride on the Witch-King. Which makes him quite powerful indeed.

Rutee
2007-12-02, 01:10 PM
To be perfectly honest, I don't consider Frostmourne to be what really corrupted Arthas; It drained his soul, sure, but Arthas was corrupted already by the time he grabbed it, what with the slaying of Stratholme's civvies, the killing of his mercenaries and the destruction of his navy to keep his troops from leaving? It may in fact be on par with the One Ring in corruption, though.. Frodo and Sam do make me ponder whether the One Ring is all it's cracked up to be :P

Adumbration
2007-12-02, 01:17 PM
To be perfectly honest, I don't consider Frostmourne to be what really corrupted Arthas; It drained his soul, sure, but Arthas was corrupted already by the time he grabbed it, what with the slaying of Stratholme's civvies, the killing of his mercenaries and the destruction of his navy to keep his troops from leaving? It may in fact be on par with the One Ring in corruption, though.. Frodo and Sam do make me ponder whether the One Ring is all it's cracked up to be :P

True... Now that I think of it. It's been a while since I played WC3 campaign through. Frostmourne may just be what tipped the scale from deeply obsessed man to an evil sonofabitch.

EvilElitest
2007-12-02, 02:16 PM
Return of EE's Rant



Frankly, amongst Sauron's host of powers, the power to summon lightning doesn't strike me as particularly relevant, or scary. Any half-bit mage can summon lightning, the difference is whether the lightning will make a sufficient impact on the battle at all.

Ok, well look at it this way, dragons fly into the air, they get shot down by lighting and massive storms. Relevant


Lightning didn't stop the Numenoreans, and it won't stop Dragons. Dragons are far too powerful for that.
Dragons are effected by lighting in the warcraft game, you can't argue that.
lack magic.
Guess what. I'll spoil the fight for you
http://www.wowwiki.com/Dragon
and were does it say they are immune to lighting?


The Lich King managed to defy Kil'Jaeden. Don't underestimate his ability to do the impossible.
1. he never fought the legion directly
2. Ok, what great and impossible actions has he taken? What godly powers other than controlling a lot of undead has he shown. He is powerful yes, but not godly


He was *the* most powerful Orcish Shaman, Warlock and War Leader.
was, i haven't seen him use any shaministic or warlock powers sence he became undead.


And when he was imprisoned in the Frozen Throne, "he felt his consciousness expand ten thousand fold". He's definitely more powerful than Luthien, and possibly more powerful than Sauron himself too.
prove it.


There isnt' a need to. We're talking about former Blue Dragons here, the same Dragons who were tasked by the Titans with maintaining the Aspect of Ice. They fear Ice about as much as Sauron fears Fire. That is, none at all.
but sauron is using fire and lighting, not ice. And any powers they had prior to becoming undead are lost now (such as their intellegence and spell casting powers)




Rowanomicon stated earlier, that defeating Sauron, while it might not kill him, constitutes a win for the other party by default. He may not be truly dead, but he'll only be back in a thousand years, in any case. A knock-out may not be a kill, but it is still a victory.
But this is directed to Ruttue, who has some strange absurd idea that just because gods are mortal in one world means they are mortal in all worlds. For the lich king to win, he needs to destroy sauron's body and then destroy the ring. For sauron to win, he needs to kill arthas, then destroy the frozen throne



Again, I direct you to what I said above. The Lich King doesn't have to kill Sauron. He just has to win.
again, not directed to you.



It is indeed true that the Kil'Jaeden and Arthas have never faced off. However, the fact that Kil'Jaeden, the master manipulator and Deceiver cannot control the Lich King tells us something about the Lich King's cunning and power.
so? Thrawn also wasn't controlled by Kil'Jaeden, along with proudmore and others. It makes the LK more admirable, but doesn't make him more powerful. To date, he has not once faced off with Kil'Jaeden in any way, so you can't claim he was more powerful




Flies? Bats? Crows? These small fry are nothing before Gargoyles and Frost Wyrms. Let's move on to talk about the things that really pose a threat:
1. Sauron has giant bats, and the Cerbian are giant crows (by giant i mean maybe the size of a human and lots of them, the flies are the size of a man's fist
2. Swarms, swarms, swarms of bats, crows, and flies. He had enough bats to block out the sun in a large aread (battle of five armies) and massive numbers of crows and flies. It takes lots of them sure, but crows and flies are carrion eaters, and the bats are vicous, so at massive losses, the will kill plenty of dragons. Oh and guess what. Sauron may loose all of his bats, but they won't even be worth rasing from the dead. Hell, the bat just have to cling onto the dragons until they get to heave and fall into the lava



a) Dragons. The Lich King has more Frost Wyrms than Sauron has Dragons.
Sauron's dragons are more powerful, and the LK's dragons are quite flamable

b) Balrogs. Balrogs are grounded creatures. They cannot interfere actively with creatures flying above.
Tolkion specificlly says they have wings. The can't fly very well (gandalf knocked him down) but the just need to get close to them and light them on fire


c) Archers. Good luck piercing undead sinew with arrows that are shooting nonballistically (and therefore losing a great deal of speed to gravity). More likely the arrows will rain back down amonst their own comrades.
I used archers to bring down frost wyrms in Warcraft III, and my hunter can shoot dragons in WOW. Arrows work, and Sauron has maybe a million archers plus catapults at his disposal. Also, fire arrows, vs. flamable corspes,=fun.j
And sauron can shoot them down himself
Oh and i found something out, Gandalf uses fire magic in the hobbit, where he made the goblin's torches and camp fire explode into large flames. So Sauron a fire spirt could make the fire arrows do that after they hit the dragon


Illidan is an enormously powerful Sorceror, one of the most powerful elves in the world, and literally pulsing with Demonic energies. No doubt he has his own methods to resist the plague. Ordinary people do not.
his high elves resisted the plauge, his naga did, the humans foot soilders fighting the undead did, the night elves did, the dwarves did, my orc warrior fights them and he isn't dead yet


As to lava: I'm going to have to reiterate the raw power of those Dragon buggers again. *They're* *not* *brutes*. They have mastery over the Arcane, they police the world that the titans made, and they are *friggen* powerful.
wrong they have lost there intellect and their spells after death. So they are pretty much zombie dragons


Frost Wyrms are not rotting carcasses. They are the skeletal remains of ancient dragons animated by necromantic power. A powerful wyrm like Saphiron is on a power level on par with a Ringwraith. They dont' go down easy.
Aka, zombie dragons. Frost Wyrms lose their arcane powers, and have no resistiance to lava (if i am wrong, link me to prove me so)



I didn't detect any talk about living human women in the Lich King's speech. It is simply said that "No man" can impede him. No man. The Lich King has non-men in abundance: Nerubians, Banshees, Death Knights, Abominations, Liches, Wyrms, Gargoyles just to name a few.
I'm pretty sure it is a human female, because Eowyn is described as the only one who could have killed him. Also, by the by, Nerubians, death knights, liches, and Gargoyles have genders.


As to the other point, above the Barrow-Blade: the Barrow Blade was a sword forged by the Master Smiths of Gondolin, and imbued with anti-Undead enchantments. I do not think that the Runeblades of Death Knights will be anything inferior to this. In fact, they may be the greater.
Forgive me for sounding strange, but why would evil undead people wield holy anti undead blades? The blade was forged specificlly by holy powers to destroy undead beings. That requires an anti undead smith who has good magic, and i really doubt the Scource would have that



He's an instructor. Instructors train people. In any case, http://www.wowwiki.com/Death_Knight_(hero_class) tells us that Death Knights are going to be trained in great numbers.
1. Oh he trained 27 people over the course of four years. Quite an army that. Acually, he trained 23 because the four horsemen were created by arthas.
2. i love your link, very specific

death Knight (hero class
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tells me all i need to know
I think you mean this link
http://www.wowwiki.com/Death_Knight_%28hero_class%29#Overview
also, i must point out, considering that PCs will be playing them, i am pretty sure these new death knights will be fighting against the LK. Also they haven't come out yet, so not yet relevant


This fact is unknown, given from what information we have at this point in time. When WotLC comes out, we will know for sure whether we really kill Ner'zhul, or merely impede him.
but as Illiden was killed by PCs and they have made not mention of creating a new game after WOW, it is reasonable to assume to that he can be killed by a large number of high level PCs




This blatantly contradicts what http://www.wowwiki.com/Archimonde_(tactics), which mentions the "World First Kill", as well as talking about what loot can be gotten from Archimonde after he is slain.
the players fight him, defeat him (lore wise the only hold him off) then he goes off and gets himself killed by the tree



The quote does not actually tell us that Kil"Jaeden was in fact more powerful than Archimonde in a big way. It tells us two things:
1) Kil'Jaeden is better than both Velen and Archimonde in matters of the Arcane
2) Kil'Jaeden is a very cunnign and manipulative foe.

Nowhere does it say that Kil'Jaeden would mop the floor with Archimonde in a fight.
Loy, i bring you an even more specific quote

Even prior to the eredar's transformation, Velen acknowledged that Kil'jaeden was his, as well as Archimonde's, superior in matters of the arcane.

Kil'jaeden has also shown ability to control his overall size (an ability shared by Archimonde), but that may not be the limit to his shapeshifting abilities.

though these are the only powers observed in recent years, assuming that these cantrips are the limits of his power is a grave mistake. He is credited with enslaving the Dreadlords, a feat that would have required immense cunning and awesome magic, and his rank within the Legion and the eredar are listed as higher than Archimonde's
he is ranked higher than Archimonde.

Selected twenty-five thousand years ago as the chief lieutenant of Sargeras, he was ranked above the now-deceased demon lord, Archimonde.

Since the apparent banishment of Sargeras, he has assumed the role of supreme commander.
he is the second greatest demon, and is Archimonde's boss

I'm not Rutee, but I'm going to answer this anyway.

A: The same way Elendil and Gil-Galad did it: by beating him up with magic Swords until he turns into a fine red mist.
and the Ring?

It doesn't need to kill him. It simply needs to defeat him. If we ever get involved in a physical fight, I can win by clobbering you on the head with a brick. Or poisoning you. Or just breaking all your limbs. It may not kill you. It has, however, put you out of commission. That would mean that I have won, even if you are not dead.
but then you have to destroy my power source (cookies) before i really out of the picture. Without my cookies i am weak

I believe Smaug was the last great dragon of Middle-earth, but Sauron does control the long-wyrms, fire-drakes and cold-drakes of the Withered Heath.
correct, but their are other fire drakes close ot Smaug in power living in the withered heath, who he used against the dwarves of the grey mountains

When Elendil and Gil-Galad destroyed Sauron, they caused him to go out of commission for 2000 years, while he slowly rebuilt his power base. Is that not a win?
1. it wasn't that long acuaully, the WK kept control of mordord and he reformed at Dul-Guldor quite quickly. He just didn't want to openly declare himself

2. And in all likelihood, the Lich King will still be around in 2000 year's time, ready and waiting to defeat Sauron again once he reincarnates. And he'll have an easier time of it than the Fellowship
But as long as the ring is around, sauron is still a threat. Even without having it himself, he can rebuilt the black gate, the dark tower, Dol-Guldor and reform the ringwraiths np, even if you take him out of commsion the Ring wraith can run his army until he comes back, ect.

Smaug was slain by Bard, who was only one (albeit great) warrior. The Lich King has scores of servants who are on a level with Bard.
Bard used a super powerful magical arrow that hit him in the his one weak point

Fire-Drakes and lesser drakes are defintiely powerful, but they cannot compare to the sheer power of fully matured Dragons, that the Frost Wyrms are.

accually, Fire-Drakes are in fact full grown mature dragons (Smaug is a fire Drake), they are like red dragons who cant cast spells (well other than mind control

Guess what. I'll spoil the fight for you.
i should have tried that ages ago


i'm not Rutee either, but I can answer that. If it ever goes to single-combat, Arthas will swipe off Sauron's hand, watches Sauron go to weep in the corner (pretty much what he did when his finger was cut off), take the ring from his dead hand and double in power.
considering the fact that Sauron was able to take on 6 super powered warrior at the same time before going down, and Arthas had trouble with one super powered badass, i'd put bets on Sauron

Before I say anything, I would like to remind everyone to keep this discussion civilized and cordial. Snark and sarcasm do not serve to further your point, they only serve to offend other people. Thank you.
thank you

He is, however, out of the running for a lengthy period of time. If Sauron's physical body is destroyed, he has lost.
not really, if his army is still around the WK can control it in his stead, even as a spirt, as long as the ring still exists he can create three great defensive positions and breed more orcs and trolls, the Balrog and the dragons will still fight without him, and his human followers still follow the WK. You need to destroy the ring

Sauron cannot create without losing some of his power with each creation. If he creates too much, he will suffer the same fate as his master Morgoth: being forced into Mortal form and unable to reincarnate.
not with the ring. That is why he created it, it allows him to use his power without losing himself.

In the same way that a Ringwraith's body does not rot, the Lich King's physical form does not decay. His body will not fall apart.
she is right, the Lich king does not rot.

We also have to ask ourselves: is Smaug dead in this Versus? This is Sauron at his optimal level of power, so presumably Smaug is on his side. If that is so, then Arthas' fliers are royally f***ed because Smaug, ahem, OWNS every Frost Wyrm you can throw at him.
no smaug is not dead (nether is the Balrog, his werewolf and vampire servents, and Arthas' servents who have technically been killed in WOW)
just want to point something out, Sauron was killed by the Valar, and reformed instently, just couldn't resume his fair form. Then he was killed by Iseldur and lost the ring. He reformed against in a weaker state but still very powerful. So Arthas needs to kill him, and he will reform instently, kill him again, and destroy the ring before he reforms again, because if he does, then arthas needs to kill him again

Arthas is the last heir of a royal line too. He made sure of that personally. In addition to that, he has one of the most powerful sorcerors of all time riding in his head.
but he isn't from Tolkion's universe, so he doesn't get the noble line badass powers, just his normal badass powers (granted that is pretty good but)

As to the black arrow, the Lich King is in possession of the formidable literature, philosophy, and arcane lore. of Azjol-Nerub, which dates back 16000 years. If he puts a mind to it, he can create artefacts similiar to black arrows too.
the black arrow is good guy magic, so he can't create it. he can have his dude just keep shooting hoping they get a lucky shot i suppose
Not. You're severely underestimating the power of the Warcraft Dragons.


I quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.wowwiki.com/Dragon
They are very cunning and magical, using spells to complement their powerful physical capacity. Because each creature has an intimate connection with the world around it, the death of a dragon is never a simple thing; it is a metaphysical event, driven by the creatures natural connection to the spirit of the world. A dragons death can cause massive upheaval in the natural surroundings - earthquakes, surface lava explosions, a new lake flooding forth from a sudden crack in the earths crust, and so on. Even young dragons, those who have not established as close a bond to the spiritual world, still make ripples in the fabric of reality when they die.
but they are far weaker after they die.

The Frost Wyrms are raised from the skeletons in the Great Dragonblight, where the most ancient of Dragons flew to die. It is doubtful whether Smaug could take even one Frost Wyrm.
consider the fact that my human towers could take down frost wyrms without to much trouble, and that smauge took out three small nations in a day, before devolping his super armor

He's agile: Again, you can't parry the attacks of six enemies at once, and it would have taken time to score the hits to kill Elendil and Gil-galad. Hence Sauron can dodge very,very well.
Remember, one of those attacks is with a nine foot glaive

*Yawns, checks wikipedia. Bursts out laughing*
So anyway, guess what; Within the canon, apparently, *LotR Gods die*.
wow, wikipedia, now there is a valid source. I mean i can trust wowwiki (it is monitored by the Blizzard staff) but wikipedia. wow, that really blows me down. Ok how about a book source

""Morgoth, once the most powerful being in E, had to rely on his armies in the War of Wrath, and with these armies defeated was easily captured by Enw, a Maia of much less power. Morgoth's physical body was executed as punishment and his spirit cast out of the world; such a punishment would have been impossible for Melkor at his full might.""
doesn't says die accually, his body is destroyed and his spirit banished. He is still alive, just a spirt. Same is sauron if he kill him then destroy the ring, he is just i minor spirt, who can take over a single body at best

Note what happens; His physical body dies, and his essence, that which makes him, him, gets sent to another plane.
accually, his body dies, and his spirit gets dragged to hell by the valar

In DnD, we call that death. And I don't think Sauron is going to be at his full might (Assuming that's enough to halt that too) after having the tar beaten out of him.
1. This isn't DND
2. You have to kill Sauron at least twice and then destroy the ring before you reduce him to a minor spirt (and essentially win)

1. Arthas isn't mortal.
2. Guess what; Just because the LotR-verse mortals suck doesn't mean Warcraft ones do. I can think of a long, long list of mortals from non-warcraft that could beat the /stuffing/ out of him. Like the overwhelming majority of console RPG protagonists, for starters.
3. You too vastly underestimate Arthas. I don't think it'd be that easy, but yes, if we're talking single combat, that's how it's going to be done; It'd just take a lot longer.

1. Nether were 4 out of those six warriros, and all of them wielded god levels of skill
2. Acually, Wow heros are really any better. they are kind of the same. And i don't care how many people "you" think can defeat him, without proof i really don't consider that valid
3. Why? Illiden is the the most powerful person Arthas could defeat and that was still a hard fight

Actually, if we're talking about Sauron at the height of his power, he has Fel Beasts, minor Wyrms, Vampires, Werewolves, Giant Carrion and other monstrous vermin that his master Morgoth created. 3rd Age Sauron is pretty much wussed against Sauron at the height of his power.
good point, he can also turn into any creature.

Yes we can. We totally can. That's why we're having this discussion, in fact. You totally can put them in a fight and see who wins.
seconded

They don't burn divine essence reconstituting themselves after death? Didn't Sauron burn divine essence in more creations then just The Ring?
but he doesn't die, he is just reduced an extremly weaken form. If the lich king does this however, then it is pretty much a win anyways

And also, I can guarantee Archimonde has been killed by players.. since..

http://www.wowwiki.com/Illidan_Stormrage_%28tactics%29
Illidan Stormrage <The Betrayer> is the final boss of the Black Temple in Shadowmoon Valley. As of Burning Crusade, Illidan is the most powerful in-game boss in World of Warcraft.
And we've got videos of his death. That means he's more powerful then ARchimonde,
Rutte, Archimonde isn't killed by wow players, the quest has them try to hold him off for a while (if they do, it counts as a win) until he can be destroyed by the magical tree. Hell, to kill him they need to destroy him with every single soul that ever lived in Warcraft up until then before they can wipe him out

I don't really know why I have to clarify that he's been killed; We have loot tables. That means he's not only been killed, but he's been killed enough that we know every item he drops.
you defeat him and he drops loot. Archimond is killed by the world tree

"Melkor was being a little b**** and totally hogging the popcorn, so we threw him out of the house."
"Melkor was being a little b**** and totally hogging the popcorn, so we killed him."
wow, best LOTRS story ever

1) Human + Orc + Dark Magic = mortal with some unusual (read, extraordinary) powers. Sure he's not going to die of old age, but his essence is still based of human and orc. I think. I'm really not up on this Warcraft stuff, again, I get confused after the third name with more apostrophies than vowels, so please tell me if and how I'm wrong. I don't want to sell anybody short here, I just don't know for sure.
basiclly, he was a powerful shaman/warlock who blew up his own planet by mistake then became a super lich, then combined with a death knight. Here is his wowwiki
http://www.wowwiki.com/Lich_King

Highly relevant; You've dismissed people on grounds of being mortal. Trying to make it back up here isn't really convincing, until you /stop/ dismissing people on grounds of mortality alone. Mortals can be Kung Fu Jesus, if the setting allows it (Not all do, nor do I hold it against a setting that doesn't; I love World of Darkness, f'rex.)
but stop mixing fantasy world that have nothing to do with hte descussion. The only worlds that we care about are Middle Earth and Azeroth
from,
EE

EvilElitest
2007-12-02, 02:42 PM
EE's rant returns


I am, in fact, quite certain that he wasn't phrased as being killed. What I am saying is that saying they're unkillable only meant by, apparently, Tolkien's definition of death. His mortal coil was shed, and his spirit was tossed into another plane of existence. I'm perfectly fine with y'all not calling that dead, since from a certain point of view, it's not. His spirit, which is what counts, is still kicking, after all. Just not present.
but that isn't his definition of death, it means that his spirit has been banished and his body is destroyed.

What I am saying is that this is death by DnD terms; That is in fact, exactly what happens with 99% of all dead people in DnD-styled settings. Now, far be it from me to say that DnD is the final arbiter on what is and isn't mortality; I'm only using it because it's common ground, and references to Exalted's Malfeans would draw blank stares. My point is that I can legitimately call this a form of death (By another universe's rules, yes), even if Tolkien didn't. The only kink in there was that the spirit had to be forced out, rather then leaving on its own.. but I'm not saying he wouldn't be hard to 'kill', merely that it's possible.
no, because in tolkion's universe, tolkion's rules. you can't have other people's rules on fantasy overlap

Hm... you know, I had to check that. Frostmourne is, yes, an insanely powerful weapon, but I wasn't sure if it was truly Ice-elemented or not. Warcraft III didn't really bother with elemental interaction, but it appeared to be a huge black blade, seen here:
it is called frostmore, it does lots of damage, and corrupts the owner if they are weak willed. That is pretty much it i think
oh fun fact

Tichondrius claimed that the Lich King forged the sword; this is unlikely, as Ner'zhul probably did not possess the power to craft items from within the Frozen Throne.

It is more plausible that it was forged by someone in the Legion, and Kil'jaeden included it in the prison for reasons unknown. If this were the case, however, then it is very odd that Kil'jaeden would give Ner'zhul the means by which to escape. For now, Frostmourne's exact origins remain a mystery, though sources suggest that it was forged by the Legion and not Ner'zhul:
doesn't seem to have been forged by the LK, who doesn't seem to be able to create magical artifacts

Frostmourne is an artifact of great evil and tremendous might, forged by demons to hold the Lich King's powers. Ner'zhul thrust the blade out of the Frozen Throne and masterminded it finding its way into Arthas' hands. Desperate for any power that might defeat the Scourge, the arrogant prince Arthas took possession of the runeblade and in doing so sealed his doom as Ner'zhul had planned.
he story section of the official Wrath of the Lich King site also states that Frostmourne predates Ner'zhul:


World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King "Ner'zhul's spirit was magically shackled to a suit of ancient armor and bound to the mighty runeblade Frostmourne. To ensure Ner'zhul's obedience, Kil'jaeden sealed the armor and blade within a specially crafted block of ice collected from the far reaches of the Twisting Nether."}

In Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos, Frostmourne increased Arthas' base damage by 22 points and allowed him to deal chaos damage, which was fully effective against all types of armor (including that of divine beings).
[edit] In Warcraft RPG
Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game This section concerns content exclusive to Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game or World of Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game.

In Warcraft RPG: Manual of Monsters, Frostmourne is a unique and indestructible item - an artifact-level bastard sword with the following abilities: an increased chance to hit, increased damage, an increased chance of scoring a critical hit, an increased attack speed, the ability to strike incorporeal creatures as though they were fully corporeal, the ability to cause bleeding wounds and reduce the victim's stamina, bonus damage against good-aligned beings, bonus damage against living beings, and a life-draining effect that heals its wielder when he deals damage. MoM 174
it is very powerful, but it is better against good creatures and isn't an instate kill item against Sauron, though i admit it would certainly hurt him

The final undead campaign in WC3: The Frozen Throne is Arthas and Anub'arak, and their army vs. Illidan, Lady Vashj, and Kael'thas, and /their/ armies. The rough part is figuring out whether they were actually outnumberred or not (You face 3 armies of equal size of your own in the battle, but that's partially due to game mechanics, not necessarily IC-setting-ness)
however, he only fought and wounded Illidan, he didn't kill any of the enemy troops
and the numbers are about equal, but arthas got more troops from his dead foes

Going by game mechanics, hat pretty much leaves Anub'arak to handle both armies while Arthas handles their leaders.. but in-setting and game mechanics don't match, necessarily. And Lady Vashj and Kael are no schlubs; To cut the bulk of the article out, Vashj has skill with magic and is one of the top three archers in the history of the Warcraft-verse (I think number 3... and those other 2 are still alive too >.>). Kael is her equal in combat prowess; It may not be immediately evident, from the article, but he's equal in raid progression to her, so I can surmise that they're equal in power (To be fair, the encounter with Kael is Kael + his high council, though, so perhaps he's only close, not quite there.)
cool, but according to cannon, he nether fights or kills ether one directlly, just through his armies

He went down to one shot? That seems to be evidence against you, really, since that one shot is (In all probability) not as good as Sylvanas, Vashj, or what's-her-face who's name escapes me, and they can't take down Frost Wyrms with a single blow.. :P
1. His one shot was in his one single weak point, shot by one of the greatest archer baddass with and arrow that alwasy auto kills
2. Frost wyms would most likely go down against hte black arrow as well, but nether side has it

In corruptive powers, I would judge it to be on par with the Ring, if not even more corruptive: a measly hobbit withstood against the Ring's corruptive powers, while the paragon of his faith, a man of immense power was reduced into a Death Knight under Lich King's will. (Yes, I'm talking about Frodo and Arthas.)
Hobbits are specificlly stated to be extremly resistant to corruption (there is in fact an advantage to not being badass, the deal with the ring is, the more badass you are, the easier it is to be controlled by the ring
Arthas was hardly a paragon of his faith, he was zealous, arrogent, and power hungry, his intentions were good, but his methods were radical. He fell because he was in fact not a paragon of his faith, and was weak willed

To be perfectly honest, I don't consider Frostmourne to be what really corrupted Arthas; It drained his soul, sure, but Arthas was corrupted already by the time he grabbed it, what with the slaying of Stratholme's civvies, the killing of his mercenaries and the destruction of his navy to keep his troops from leaving? It may in fact be on par with the One Ring in corruption, though.. Frodo and Sam do make me ponder whether the One Ring is all it's cracked up to be :P
i agree except with frodo and sam
the deal with hte on ring is that it corrupts the powerful. The more powerful you are, the easier you are to corrupt. The more simple and modest you are, hte harder you are to corrupt. Hobbits are by nature simple, rural, kind, modest, good folk, who are not ambitious, powerhungry, glory seeking, or selfish. They are not powerful really, and have not super powers. Frodo and Sam are both good people, just simple kind modest people, and so they are much harder to corrupt (though frodo is corrupted in the end).
from,
EE

captain_decadence
2007-12-02, 03:35 PM
Lalalala, I have no interest in this argument beyond reading it but I must point out something all of you keep saying:




Bard used a super powerful magical arrow that hit him in the his one weak point

and things like that. All it is ever said about the Black Arrow is that it has never failed him before and he's always managed to retrieve it. It's not super-powerful, it's never said to be magical. It's like Bard the Bowman's lucky underwear except he can shoot it.

Lyesmith
2007-12-02, 04:04 PM
As Konfeta said, it *is* basically fanboy vs. fanboy arguments here. As an entirely neutral party, it does look like the Lich King seems to have the advantage, but it could just be the way things are written. These posts are an excellent study in persuasive and argumentative writing, i intend to read more to brush up for my exams. If one invovled some Discworld charaters i might even have a crack at it.
and who is "Tolkion"?

Rutee
2007-12-02, 04:06 PM
doesn't seem to have been forged by the LK, who doesn't seem to be able to create magical artifacts
You know, with me linking such a nifty, self referential, and very much comprehensive listing fo the Warcraft-verse, some onus falls on you to actually read through these pages in their entirety.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Death_Knight#Death_Knights_of_the_Scourge

When Prince Arthas Menethil of Lordaeron gave himself over to Frostmourne during the Third War, he became Lich King Ner'zhul's first death knight, sworn to the Scourge and invested with dark powers to carry out its will. Since then, paladin warriors who accede to the call of the Scourge and make a pact to serve the Lich King receive a vampiric runeblade specially crafted for them and are anointed by Nerzhul as one of his death knights. Thus the Lich King fashions his corrupted paladins: his greatest champions living or undead in his campaign to conquer all of Azeroth. To become a death knight, a Paladin must vow before Nerzhul (or one of his designates) to serve the Scourge, be accepted, and then receive a vampiric runeblade forged specifically for him.


He was *the* most powerful Orcish Shaman, Warlock and War Leader.
He certainly can't use his Shaman powers any longer, but Warlock powers he still 'should' have.


but stop mixing fantasy world that have nothing to do with hte descussion. The only worlds that we care about are Middle Earth and Azeroth
I'm not surprised that you missed the point. WG was (emphasis on past tense) writing things off on basis of being mortal, because most mortals suck in LotR. Mortals don't automatically suck in other settings though, one of these being Warcraft (See: Grom Hellscream and Thrall taking down Mannoroth by themselves)


but that isn't his definition of death, it means that his spirit has been banished and his body is destroyed.
Okay. And by a different definition of death, he's quite dead (Albeit fated to return). It's a definition of death I would think you're very familiar with, actually.


prove it.
You know what? This is the last post I'm going to keep linking the basics from. I'll link any new concept I bring up, but I'm going to have to ask you to read.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Lich_King#Birth_of_the_Lich_King
"Encased in the ice he felt his consciousness expand ten thousand fold, while being warped by Kil'jaeden's power."



1. This isn't DND
2. You have to kill Sauron at least twice and then destroy the ring before you reduce him to a minor spirt (and essentially win)
1. Congratulations on missing the point. Why am I responding to you if everything has to be spelled out in detail, even the most basic points?
2. No, you have to kill him once to win. After he's killed off once, he's not going to come back victorious; His powerbase will be mopped up, and if orc-spawning doesn't require his intervention, Nerzhy will have bigger and bigger armies each time. This is a simple concept. The One Ring's destruction is not necessary (Though useful) for Nerzhy's victory. Assuming we were doing this to the pain, not to a single victory, regardless.


1. Sauron has giant bats, and the Cerbian are giant crows (by giant i mean maybe the size of a human and lots of them, the flies are the size of a man's fist
Bats aren't all that scary as combatants, really, and I'll repeat; Gargoyles are anti-air death engines. The only anti-air remotely as effective as one in WC3 was Gyrocopters with proper upgrades.


cool, but according to cannon, he nether fights or kills ether one directlly, just through his armies
You have a canon telling of the battle? Gimme gimme! That'd clear up that irritation about army size.


Forgive me for sounding strange, but why would evil undead people wield holy anti undead blades? The blade was forged specificlly by holy powers to destroy undead beings. That requires an anti undead smith who has good magic, and i really doubt the Scource would have that

I'm pretty sure that Kel'Thuzad or Nerzhy is capable of it. Assuming one needs it to actually kill a Ringwraith; Just because ti's the only option available to a non-uber mortal doesn't make it the only option available to the Scourge.


not really, if his army is still around the WK can control it in his stead, even as a spirt, as long as the ring still exists he can create three great defensive positions and breed more orcs and trolls, the Balrog and the dragons will still fight without him, and his human followers still follow the WK. You need to destroy the ring
You've managed to completely miss the point; There's nothing on Sauron's side that isn't himself that can challenge Ner'zhul himself, and with Sauron killed, he'd be quite capable of chopping through the WK and co with his death kniggits. I'm sure there's command structure besides Sauron, but the army itself is /quite screwed/ if they need to use it. That's why I doubt it's going to come down to an epic duel, frankly; Why should Ner'Zhul or Sauron risk it?


But this is directed to Ruttue, who has some strange absurd idea that just because gods are mortal in one world means they are mortal in all worlds. For the lich king to win, he needs to destroy sauron's body and then destroy the ring. For sauron to win, he needs to kill arthas, then destroy the frozen throne
I've already provided evidence that Morgoth gets /killed/. Not by Tolkien's definition, sure, but I already went over that. It's not very absurd, when the only gods I've ever seen that are labelled unkillable (Tolkien's) /also/ die, within their own setting.


Sauron's dragons are more powerful, and the LK's dragons are quite flamable
Um.. no, they're not? I'm not quite sure why there's an assumption that any of the undead are weak to fire, really..


Dragons are effected by lighting in the warcraft game, you can't argue that.
lack magic.
Am I going to have to repeat this?




Defeating him with what, pray tell? The falling apart two-thousand-year old corpses left behind after he wipes out the rest of his world? Decay, it happens. Ultimately, regardless of whether Sauron's physical body is defeated, Sauron will win. Why? Because unlike the Lich-King, Sauron can create. The Lich-King is entirely dependent on outside forces to provide his army, and without those forces he will ultimately fail.

Actually, if the Orc Spawning doesn't require Sauron's direct intervention, then not only will Nerzhy have a fresh army, but it'll be friggin' huge. And no, I don't mean of orcs.

And that assumes he can't force Sauron's spirit to GTFO like Morgoth's was.. which is effectively death. :D
Which he might not be able to do, certainly, though he seems to have some skill with dimensional magic, seeing as he tore apart a planet with it once.


he is ranked higher than Archimonde.
Tell me something I don't know. Like whether Kil'Jaeden can stomp Archimonde into the dust or not, which is what I asked you the first time, if you'd pay attention; Winning != Steamrolling.


however, he only fought and wounded Illidan, he didn't kill any of the enemy troops
and the numbers are about equal, but arthas got more troops from his dead foes
Prove the numbers were equal; Please, by all means, I would love to know whether I was only swamped because of the max food limit or not. You claimed to have a canon telling so produce it for me. Because I promise you, you're not winning that battle in the game without involving Arthas and Anub'arak and having them beat the tar out of as many enemy soldiers as you can. I'm highly inclined to say "You have no idea what you're talking about" with this battle.


Given that it took six incrediably powerful mortals to destroy Sauron once, I consider this a pretty fair base line.
I hate to bring this back up, but... I thought it took 3 the first time, didn't it? Because only 3 really got mentioned in the other thread.


1. never directly
2. Ok, what great and impossible actions has he taken? What godly powers other than controlling a lot of undead has he shown. He is powerful yes, but not godly
1. Yes, directly. That's why Illidan was sent to go whomp him in the first place.
2. ....The destruction of Draenor, a planet, before even becoming the Lich King?


I'm pretty sure it is a human female, because Eowyn is described as the only one who could have killed him. Also, by the by, Nerubians, death knights, liches, and Gargoyles have genders.
They have genders, sure, but they're not men. Do you not get how prophecy works? Can someone who isn't EE defend the WK's prophecy protection for me, because EE doesn't seem to read.


his high elves resisted the plauge, his naga did, the humans foot soilders fighting the undead did, the night elves did, the dwarves did, my orc warrior fights them and he isn't dead yet
You don't want to bring up WoW PC power; Each (Raiding) level 70 by this point is probably getting pretty darn close to Gil-Galad level (And they're almost certainly wielding more artifacts). And it takes 25 of them to kill off say, Illidan, who Arthas beat already. I've kept my PC points strictly to who gets killed or not, and when, for a very good reason.

As to the rest, they don't resist the plague. That's why they have skeletons of them that can be created. They just don't immediately die to it. Plagues don't work instantly.



Tolkion specificlly says they have wings. The can't fly very well (gandalf knocked him down) but the just need to get close to them and light them on fire

Oh, they 'just' need to get close to them, when they can't fly very well? If I have the time, I'd hit n' run then. Breathe, pull back, breathe, pull back.


but as Illiden was killed by PCs and they have made not mention of creating a new game after WOW, it is reasonable to assume to that he can be killed by a large number of high level PCs
No, you don't kill the Lich King. You get in his way. I've said this 4 times now. Do you speak English?


no, because in tolkion's universe, tolkion's rules. you can't have other people's rules on fantasy overlap
Rules aren't intruding. I'm strictly using a definition. Read.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-02, 04:21 PM
Before I say anything, I would like to remind everyone to keep this discussion civilized and cordial. Snark and sarcasm do not serve to further your point, they only serve to offend other people. Thank you.

I'd like to remind everyone that this entire argument is silly, thus snark and sarcasm make reading the thread worthwhile.


He is, however, out of the running for a lengthy period of time. If Sauron's physical body is destroyed, he has lost.

Says who? Last time I checked, this isn't a rule. After all, if it is a rule, then the Ringwraiths just go invisible, sneak into Icecrown Glacier, and shank the Lich-King with a Morgul Blade. Physical death =/= lose. Primarily because Sauron has many more ways of assassinating the Lich-King than vice-versa.


Actually, not. Zombies may fall apart, as may mortal necromancers. Skeletons, Gargoyles, Frost Wyrms, Liches, Death Knights, Ghosts, Banshees and the Lich King's other creatures do not.

I'd like you to point out one instance where zombie dragons, stones, bones, and zombie knights don't decay. If we're talking game mechanics, then Sauron automatically wins because he has no HP value and thusly cannot be killed.

I will, however, give you Banshees. Though they're pretty useless against non-casters. Regardless, what is stopping Sauron from destroying them even more quickly than he would destroy any of the Lich-King's other minions?


Sauron cannot create without losing some of his power with each creation. If he creates too much, he will suffer the same fate as his master Morgoth: being forced into Mortal form and unable to reincarnate.

He only needs to create once to win. S'called a non-rotting meatsack of a body.


In the same way that a Ringwraith's body does not rot, the Lich King's physical form does not decay. His body will not fall apart.

As answered already, a ringwraith is incorporeal.

Rutee: Just to note, in future expansions of WoW, the Lich-King will probably be killable by PCs. It's just a simple matter of Blizzard eventually running out of raid-bosses.

Rutee
2007-12-02, 05:04 PM
Rutee: Just to note, in future expansions of WoW, the Lich-King will probably be killable by PCs. It's just a simple matter of Blizzard eventually running out of raid-bosses.
I could design a raid encounter where you fight Arthas, get loot for it, and still lose, in the lore, in my sleep. I'm not even paid to do it. It's really not very difficult.

warty goblin
2007-12-02, 05:33 PM
A few points answering/replying to stuff that I'm too lazy to go back and quote.

1) Number of Combatants at the Last Battle on Orodruin. Well, we know Elendil, Isildur and Gil-galad all actually fought. The other two(Elrond, Cirdin, I was wrong there's only five on Orodruin) were also there at the scene of the fight. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they weren't sitting on the side-lines providing blow by blow commentary and flicking popcorn cernals at Sauron to pop 'em, although it would be funny if they did:

Elrond: Well, here we are at the Grand Champion Fight to determine the Ruler of Middle-Earth. On the left we have Sauron, Lord of the Rings, looking tight in a new suit of smoldering hot black adament armor. He's also got some nice bling goin' with that oh so popular One Gold Ring with Fiery Runes look. A little simple for my taste personally. I'd have gone with some nice purple armor, yellow flaming highlights and a solid gold pendant with "Eye'm the One" inscribed on it, but I suppose the dark, flaming and brooding look never really goes out of style either.

Cirdin: Right you are Elrond, say mind if I call you Ely?

Elrond: Yes.

Cirdin: Good, now back to Ely with the description of our other two combatants.

Elrond: I meant "Yes I mind being called 'Ely'" not "Yes, call me Ely" you idiot. Honestly you're some sort of super engineer building ships that sail the 'Straight Path" and all, but you can't even figure out a simple statement. What's so great about a ship sailing straight anyway huh? What if I want to turn?

Cirdin: Hey, my ships defy several laws of physics, unlike your wardrobe which just defies good taste.

Elrond: What's wrong with a gold and pink suit of armor with flared sleeves and bell bottum greaves anyway? Or maybe its my "Imladris IsmyBliss" necktie Mr. Fashion Police?

Cirdin: You are hopeless.

Sauron: Yo! Elf pimps! Get your commentary in gear! Some of us have worlds to conquer here and time's wasting!

Elendil: Yeah, you've been harping at each other for seven bloody years now. Honestly when my son Anarion died it was with a smile on his face and I know why. He managed to escape from you lot.

Isildur: Oh dad, how could you!?!?!

Elendil: Son I...

Isildur: Nobody understands my pain!! *bursts into tears*

Elendil: Kids these days, always dressing in black, with those stupid winged helmets and that fetish for Rings, no offense big S, always going on about the anguish of their lives.

Sauron: It's coo yo. You want me for to slap him around for you?

Elendil: No, he's my only son, gods preserve us, and I need him more or less intact.

Gil-galad: For the love of all that is holy! I don't age and I'm dying of old age over here. Also, this armor weighs a ton and my althlete's foot is killing me.

Elrond: Ewww, total information overload there. Anyway over here we have Elendil, King of Gondor and Mr. December in this year's "Numenorian Stud-Muffin" calender. Next to him is Gil-galad, general badass and winner of the "Crossdressing Elf Contest" for his portrayel of Luthein Tinuveil.

Gil-galad: Hey! That was a one time thing that you asked me to do for your wedding!

Cirdin: Oh yeah, then what about the "Ruin of Eriador" bash?

Gil-galad: You promised neve to talk about that!

Elrond: As much as I hate to interrupt you two ladies, we've got a war here. Get ready to Rummblee!

Cirdin: And they're off! Looks like Sauron's going for a slow and steady game here, he's playing dee. Elendil open up with his trademark overhand swing, and ohh! He goes down like a rock with a mace the size of an obese dwarf in his head! Looks like the Big S was feinting there.

Elrond: I think you meant "a mace the size of your obese dwarf mama". And his sword's broken too. Always thouht that thing was a cheap goblin knockoff of the dwarven original. Here's our boy Gil-galad coming in with a low swing before Sauron can recover his mace....!

Cirdin: I resent that, but to maintain our PG-13 rating I'll refrain from commenting on your ancestry. And Gil-galad has stabbed Sauron, who's now totally ripping off Lurtz from the movie and pulling himself up the spear. Always seemed painful to me. Then again, I'm not a timeless evil either. Maybe that's what does rocks his Ring, I always wondered about that spiky armor fetish he's got...

Elrond: Again, less with the information. And he's just roasted Gil-galad into a little cinder with a touch. Talk about burnin' hot love. I guess we know why nobody asks him for a second date!

Isildur: Nooo! I seeth with teenage fury! *chops off Sauron's ring*

Sauron: Hey, rugrat, watch the bling yo! Why this is genuine volcano forge....*falls apart*

Isildur: Genuine volcano forged? Darn, I saw one of those at the mall last time I went but they cost a ton. I mean, they only ever made, like, 1. *Grabs the Ring* Holy son of a vampire bat! HOT! BURNING! My life is pain!

Cirdin: Well folks, that's all. Tune in tomorrow for "Ranger Fred's wet T-Shirt Elf Babe Contest"

2) Balrog. If Sauron has the balrog things are going to be majorly ugly for the opposition. A balrog's fire whip is one of the most deadly and powefrul weapons in Middle-Earth. The pain is sufficient to drive off Ungoliont herself, and the balrogs kill many very powerful elves throughout the Silmarillion. I'm not saying the Balrog is going to bring down the Lich King, but an undead dragon isn't a reach. When it swoops in to breathe, flame lash it. If its not entangled, it'll take significant damage and be force to alter course. If it is entangled, just slam it into the ground repeatedly, then jump on and start burning and whacking away with the large, flaming sword.

Seraph
2007-12-02, 05:59 PM
. . . but an undead dragon isn't a reach. When it swoops in to breathe, flame lash it. If its not entangled, it'll take significant damage and be force to alter course. If it is entangled, just slam it into the ground repeatedly, then jump on and start burning and whacking away with the large, flaming sword.


what kind of utter, biased stupidity is making you think that a creature with a natural ranged weapon needs to close to melee range to use it? I mean, what the ****.

Rutee
2007-12-02, 06:07 PM
I'd like you to point out one instance where zombie dragons, stones, bones, and zombie knights don't decay. If we're talking game mechanics, then Sauron automatically wins because he has no HP value and thusly cannot be killed.
I missed this, but it was cute, so I'll go back for it. Neither does Ner'Zhul.


Says who? Last time I checked, this isn't a rule. After all, if it is a rule, then the Ringwraiths just go invisible, sneak into Icecrown Glacier, and shank the Lich-King with a Morgul Blade. Physical death =/= lose. Primarily because Sauron has many more ways of assassinating the Lich-King than vice-versa.
I put Wraiths up as guards, they true sight-detect the Nazgul. Don't stop them though; Let them get to the central base, while quietly assembling my top Liches and Death Knights. I murder the Nazgul now that they're at my central command with no support, fighting the best I've got (Who are each at or near their level of power. FYI: I'm pretty sure the Lich King is immune to Morgul Blade corruption, as are his entire army.. but I could be wrong. Why don'tcha link me to exactly what they do? I'm pretty sure they require the target to be living...)

That was easy; got any better plans? In fact, that plan is entirely predicated on a lack of knowledge of the Lich King's capabilities. While Sauron may in fact be in such circumstances, the fact that *you* put it forward tells me you're not trying to understand the opposition.

If Sauron loses once, he will lose harder with each successive killing. I don't see why the Lich King would bother humorring him after the first kill.

Assuming he's not powerful enough to literally kill him, or do to him what was done to Morgoth. I'm pretty sure Sauron won't be at the height of his power after getting whacked.


I'd like to remind everyone that this entire argument is silly, thus snark and sarcasm make reading the thread worthwhile.
Meh, I probably shouldn't have gone quite that far regardless; At least WG is trying to get both sides.


1) Number of Combatants at the Last Battle on Orodruin. Well, we know Elendil, Isildur and Gil-galad all actually fought. The other two(Elrond, Cirdin, I was wrong there's only five on Orodruin) were also there at the scene of the fight. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they weren't sitting on the side-lines providing blow by blow commentary and flicking popcorn cernals at Sauron to pop 'em, although it would be funny if they did:

I would think, if they were there and didn't fight Sauron, they were probably fighting off his grunts to keep them from interfering... but the compromise of 4 is sound on that count. That explained, why don't we know they fought? (I'm asking for the sake of curiosity more then that.. if you knew definitely that they hadn't fought you'd say so :P)

warty goblin
2007-12-02, 06:09 PM
what kind of utter, biased stupidity is making you think that a creature with a natural ranged weapon needs to close to melee range to use it? I mean, what the ****.

The following: Dragon's breath is an expanding gas, hence subject to the expanding gas law. It's potency will dimish quite rapidly with distance, it needs to get fairly close. Before people jump on me for applying real world stuff to fantasy again, let me ask you: when was the last time you read of a dragon using its breath weapon from more than about a hundred feet? Balrogs are also very big creatures, their melee reach is considerable, Durin's Bane is described as filling the entire chamber with its darkness. Then add their probable limited flight ability (they have wings, even if they can't fly, they can use them to jump pretty high), and they can reach a pretty fair distance.

Now balrogs have a standard issue flaming whip of painful pain, which also is fairly long. Take this, long arms to begin with, jumping and possibly flying ability, and its pretty clear to me at least that a balrog could catch a dragon out of the air- particulary a skeletal dragon with all of those oh so entangleable ribs and bones and wings and things. Sure the balrog might not manage this on the dragon's first pass, but it'll take more than one, and if the balrog catches the dragon, its toast (literally).

I don't see this chain of logic as biased or stupid thank you very much, I'd say the same if the balrog was trying to catch an LOTR dragon as well. If this was Glaurong or Ancelion the Black I might not give the balrog the win, but the catch? Sure.

Rutee
2007-12-02, 06:16 PM
I wouldn't be terribly surprised if a Balrog could beat frost wyrms then. Sapphiron could probably take one, but not every Frost Wyrm is Sapphiron. If it were flying (Based on that), I'd probably swarm it with Gargoyles then.. though the Balrog would probably drop back to the ground. No sense exposing itself to anti-air death engine-ness when you can still smack 'em around from the ground.

Also, can someone remind me what a Destroyer is capable of? I haven't mentioned them because I honestly keep forgetting; I prefered humans/Orcs to the UD, so I just got through their campaign >.>

Thrivol
2007-12-02, 06:30 PM
But this is directed to Ruttue, who has some strange absurd idea that just because gods are mortal in one world means they are mortal in all worlds. For the lich king to win, he needs to destroy sauron's body and then destroy the ring. For sauron to win, he needs to kill arthas, then destroy the frozen throne

The Frozen Throne? Arthas just sits up there because he has nothing better to do. It has no power. It formerly contained Ner'zhul's, the Lich King's, spirit, but Arthas put on the Lich Kings armor and the two fused.
Ah, this is so much easier, you might say. Just kill Arthas. Wrong. When Wrath of the Lich King was released, an example of Frostmourne was given. Its equip effect was: The wielder of Frostmourne will become the new Lich King.

You have to destroy Frostmourne, too, to get rid of Ner'zhul. Maybe. Beings of his power (like Medivh) just never die permanently.


Now, on the subject of the armies, I cannot see Sauron having a chance. His death knights are a match for the ring wraiths. There are 9 ring wraiths, there are most likely at least 100 death knights (most likely many more).
If Suaron uses dragons, gargoyles/frost wyrms will just rip them to shreds. Orcs can be defeated, no problem, by ghouls. Trolls, by abominations.
Arthas also has many necromancers working for him.

An argument brought up earlier was "Could the Lich King bring down Barad-dur?" Yes, yes he could.
Flying necropoli FTW. Arthas has at least 150 of them. Probably many times that.

Edit: Here is what I imagine happens in Sauron does win. He throws away his pathetic little weapon and decides he wants a real weapon. He picks up Frostmourne. Him and Ner'zhul merge and become something so powerful and evil even Morgoth at the height of his power would shudder.

EvilElitest
2007-12-02, 06:35 PM
You know, with me linking such a nifty, self referential, and very much comprehensive listing fo the Warcraft-verse, some onus falls on you to actually read through these pages in their entirety.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Death_Knight#Death_Knights_of_the_Scourge

you know what is also funny, with you linking all these niffty links, i'd think you'd accually read them
under the article on frostmourn

Tichondrius claimed that the Lich King forged the sword; this is unlikely, as Ner'zhul probably did not possess the power to craft items from within the Frozen Throne.It is more plausible that it was forged by someone in the Legion, and Kil'jaeden included it in the prison for reasons unknown. If this were the case, however, then it is very odd that Kil'jaeden would give Ner'zhul the means by which to escape. For now, Frostmourne's exact origins remain a mystery, though sources suggest that it was forged by the Legion and not Ner'zhul:

Frostmourne is an artifact of great evil and tremendous might, forged by demons to hold the Lich King's powers. Ner'zhul thrust the blade out of the Frozen Throne and masterminded it finding its way into Arthas' hands. Desperate for any power that might defeat the Scourge, the arrogant prince Arthas took possession of the runeblade and in doing so sealed his doom as Ner'zhul had planned.

World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King "Ner'zhul's spirit was magically shackled to a suit of ancient armor and bound to the mighty runeblade Frostmourne. To ensure Ner'zhul's obedience, Kil'jaeden sealed the armor and blade within a specially crafted block of ice collected from the far reaches of the Twisting Nether."}
its funny, because i got all of these quotes off of your lack link to the wowwiki page on frostmourn. Considering your the one linking them, it would make sense to read the damn think wouldn't it?

He certainly can't use his Shaman powers any longer, but Warlock powers he still 'should' have.
are you sure? Because i haven't seen him use any warlock powers, well ever. If you can think of an example please let me know

Okay. And by a different definition of death, he's quite dead (Albeit fated to return). It's a definition of death I would think you're very familiar with, actually.
but we are working off Tolkion's definition of death, not somebody elses, at least for Sauron
the point is moot, if the LK can destroy sauron's body twice, and the ring, then it is pretty much a win


He certainly can't use his Shaman powers any longer, but Warlock powers he still 'should' have.


I'm not surprised that you missed the point. WG was (emphasis on past tense) writing things off on basis of being mortal, because most mortals suck in LotR. Mortals don't automatically suck in other settings though, one of these being Warcraft (See: Grom Hellscream and Thrall taking down Mannoroth by themselves)


Okay. And by a different definition of death, he's quite dead (Albeit fated to return). It's a definition of death I would think you're very familiar with, actually.



You know what? This is the last post I'm going to keep linking the basics from. I'll link any new concept I bring up, but I'm going to have to ask you to read.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Lich_King#Birth_of_the_Lich_King
"Encased in the ice he felt his consciousness expand ten thousand fold, while being warped by Kil'jaeden's power."
i've read it, and no, i doesn't prove a thing. His power is increased, and his consciousness expand ten thousand fold, and look. no details about his power. Proves absoutly nothing. Because this may seem strange, but without any you know, description of his powers, it simple proves that he is a powerful undead with lots of necromantic control spells. says nothing that will prove him being more powerful than ether lutherin or sauron



1. Congratulations on missing the point. Why am I responding to you if everything has to be spelled out in detail, even the most basic points?
2. No, you have to kill him once to win. After he's killed off once, he's not going to come back victorious; His powerbase will be mopped up, and if orc-spawning doesn't require his intervention, Nerzhy will have bigger and bigger armies each time. This is a simple concept. The One Ring's destruction is not necessary (Though useful) for Nerzhy's victory. Assuming we were doing this to the pain, not to a single victory, regardless.
1. I'm just going to wager a guess, but most likely because you points tend to ege toward totally irrelvant, or are granderouse claims that aren't back up. As you might have noticed, most of your links don't seem to have been read through properly
2. Acually no. When he died at the breaking of the world, he came back instently, he could couldn't assume a fair for or shape shift. thus if Sauron is at the height of his power, than you have to
A) kill him once, he will instently reform back in the dark tower and command his armies again
B) kill him again, this time his forces will suffer greatly, but the WK can run things until his comes back. It takes only a little while before his spirt resumes control, but a little longer for him to form a new body
C) destory the ring. Otherwise, every time he can come back he can instently rebuilt the Black gate, Bara-dur, Dul-Guldor, and bring the ringwraiths back as well as his body (and this is without the ring). Once rebuilding the dark tower, he can spawn orcs inside at his lesure while his fortress is besieged, so no it isn't a total win. If hte ring is destroy however, then he losses all his power



Bats aren't all that scary as combatants, really, and I'll repeat; Gargoyles are anti-air death engines. The only anti-air remotely as effective as one in WC3 was Gyrocopters with proper upgrades.
No bats aren't that scary true, even five foot ones, but imagine this a swarm of bats big enough to blot out the sun swarming the gargoles. Sure lots of bats will die, but ever 500 giant bats=one small dragon (more likely 1,500 giant bats but still) will eventually catch up with LK. Remeber, Sauron can replace his bats, Arthas can't replace any of his gargorles or dragons.


You have a canon telling of the battle? Gimme gimme! That'd clear up that irritation about army size.
sorry, just the wow wiki on the battle, where it states that Arthas was attacked by Blood elf, naga, and dwarven forces before fighting and defeating illidan. Logically, he must have out numbered his foes if he managed to get past, but he certainlly didn't fight ether the blood elf king, or the naga queen


I'm pretty sure that Kel'Thuzad or Nerzhy is capable of it. Assuming one needs it to actually kill a Ringwraith; Just because ti's the only option available to a non-uber mortal doesn't make it the only option available to the Scourge.
the book said that no other weapon could have hurt the ring wraith so much. So please tell me, how could the scourge come up with an anti undead holy weapon? Anti undead i might belive (they are fighting the forsakon) but holy?


You've managed to completely miss the point; There's nothing on Sauron's side that isn't himself that can challenge Ner'zhul himself, and with Sauron killed, he'd be quite capable of chopping through the WK and co with his death kniggits. I'm sure there's command structure besides Sauron, but the army itself is /quite screwed/ if they need to use it. That's why I doubt it's going to come down to an epic duel, frankly; Why should Ner'Zhul or Sauron risk it?
but here is the catch. Even if Sauron is destroyed twice (I don't think ether one would try for an epic duel, they are both to smart) at great cost to the scourge, the army of the Sauron is still intact. The WK doesn't have to win, he just has to hold off the Scourge and damage their army as much as he can until his master reforms. your right, with the unlikely possibilty of hte WK (Arthas is male remember) no body can hurt Arthas in Sauron's force, but the WK doesn't have to, he just has to hold off the Scourge until his master returns, instently rebuilts his fortress and then gets back to destroying the scrouge




I've already provided evidence that Morgoth gets /killed/. Not by Tolkien's definition, sure, but I already went over that. It's not very absurd, when the only gods I've ever seen that are labelled unkillable (Tolkien's) /also/ die, within their own setting.
I'll ask you this. If Morgoth did in fact die, why didn't tolkien say so? He specificlly said that Morgoth's spirt was banished, but not killed. He also specificlly says that Sauron's spirt would not die even if the ring was destroyed, just reduced to a minor evil. If Morgoth died, Tolkien would have said so as he did when talking about other characters that died


Um.. no, they're not? I'm not quite sure why there's an assumption that any of the undead are weak to fire, really..
I was talking about the fact they are frostwyrms, and frost is weak against fire. But on the topic, rotting corpses don't do so well against flames


Am I going to have to repeat this?
well you failed to counter it properly last time, so feel free to do so again




Actually, if the Orc Spawning doesn't require Sauron's direct intervention, then not only will Nerzhy have a fresh army, but it'll be friggin' huge. And no, I don't mean of orcs.
no it doesn't, orcs spawn normally (in the misty mountians and hte grey mountains they spawn without him)


And that assumes he can'uron's spirit to GTFO like Morgoth's was.. which is effectively deat force Sath. :D
does he have massive god like powers over creation. If he does, then i'll belive it

Which he might not be able to do, certainly, though he seems to have some skill with dimensional magic, seeing as he tore apart a planet with it once.
correction, he blew up his own planet by mistake. Aka, he screwed up and destroyed his entire planet. I must say, smooth. real smooth there
also, i think he lost his dimentional magic after his death.


Tell me something I don't know. Like whether Kil'Jaeden can stomp Archimonde into the dust or not, which is what I asked you the first time, if you'd pay attention; Winning != Steamrolling.
i already provided you with the quotes proving who is more powerful, the fact you seem determined to ignore them doesn't make them any less relevant.




I hate to bring this back up, but... I thought it took 3 the first time, didn't it? Because only 3 really got mentioned in the other thread.
no six were mentioned in the other thread
1. Gil-ad, god like badass high elven king who is tens of thousands years old
2. Elendil- greatest human of the second age
3. Iseldur- second greatest human
4. Elrond- banner bearer of Gil-ad
5. cirdon- herald of Gil-ald
6. Glorfindal



1. Yes, directly. That's why Illidan was sent to go whomp him in the first place.
2. ....The destruction of Draenor, a planet, before even becoming the Lich King?
1. I just want to make this clear, but Illidan isn't a full demon. He isn't a real memeber of the burning legion, just a guy working for them. So no, the LK hasn't direcly fought the burning legion, just three dreadlords
2. Accidently blowing up your own planet because you screwed your own spells ups doesn't convice me that he is a very compatent foe


They have genders, sure, but they're not men. Do you not get how prophecy works? Can someone who isn't EE defend the WK's prophecy protection for me, because EE doesn't seem to read.
which is funny, because you can't seem to respond to any of the quotes i provide or even read your own links. Don't call me black mr. pot
I'm acting under the assumption that the prophersy refers to gender, not to race. Considering the fact the book says that only Eowyn could have slew the WK, i think that backs me up nicely. Only a female may kill him (interapation based on quotes). My guess is a human female (because that is what hte WK was refering to) but it is debatable


You don't want to bring up WoW PC power; Each (Raiding) level 70 by this point is probably getting pretty darn close to Gil-Galad level (And they're almost certainly wielding more artifacts). And it takes 25 of them to kill off say, Illidan, who Arthas beat already. I've kept my PC points strictly to who gets killed or not, and when, for a very good reason.
good point, but does the system translate. Remember, Arthas was the one of the greatest paladins and in Warcraft III he is only level 10 tops.


As to the rest, they don't resist the plague. That's why they have skeletons of them that can be created. They just don't immediately die to it. Plagues don't work instantly.
then logically, should every single soilders who has ever fought the scourge be dead now? we know that isn't true. Hell, in the Warcraft RPG the stats on undead says nothing about a plauge, the undead in wow don't give anyone the plauge, and my foot soilders in Warcraft three who fought the zombies stayed alive throught hte champain without dying of the plauge.


Oh, they 'just' need to get close to them, when they can't fly very well? If I have the time, I'd hit n' run then. Breathe, pull back, breathe, pull back.
they have masisve wings, they can fly well enough, and they are massive buring demons who can shoot fire and have 20 foot long flaming whips. I think that can get a few


No, you don't kill the Lich King. You get in his way. I've said this 4 times now. Do you speak English?

I talk english very good thank you very much. Also, this may seem strange and abnormal, but i'm just going to break it to you. Just because you say something is so, doesn't make it true. The LK is the final boss of Wraith of the Lich King. Illiden was the final boss of Burning Crusade. Illidan can be killed, so logically so can Arthas (they are both major lore characters). Now if Blizzard comes out with some definaite proof that he can't be killed i'll belive you, but considering the other major villian's tract record, i'm going to go with his dying


I could design a raid encounter where you fight Arthas, get loot for it, and still lose, in the lore, in my sleep. I'm not even paid to do it. It's really not very difficult.
they could have done that with Illidan i notice but they didn't:smallfurious:

1) Number of Combatants at the Last Battle on Orodruin. Well, we know Elendil, Isildur and Gil-galad all actually fought. The other two(Elrond, Cirdin, I was wrong there's only five on Orodruin) were also there at the scene of the fight. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they weren't sitting on the side-lines providing blow by blow commentary and flicking popcorn cernals at Sauron to pop 'em, although it would be funny if they did:
Elrond says they were part of the battle (Glorfindal as well) and they were all weary but alive at the end of the battle
from,
EE

EvilElitest
2007-12-02, 06:36 PM
A few points answering/replying to stuff that I'm too lazy to go back and quote.

1) Number of Combatants at the Last Battle on Orodruin. Well, we know Elendil, Isildur and Gil-galad all actually fought. The other two(Elrond, Cirdin, I was wrong there's only five on Orodruin) were also there at the scene of the fight. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they weren't sitting on the side-lines providing blow by blow commentary and flicking popcorn cernals at Sauron to pop 'em, although it would be funny if they did:

Elrond: Well, here we are at the Grand Champion Fight to determine the Ruler of Middle-Earth. On the left we have Sauron, Lord of the Rings, looking tight in a new suit of smoldering hot black adament armor. He's also got some nice bling goin' with that oh so popular One Gold Ring with Fiery Runes look. A little simple for my taste personally. I'd have gone with some nice purple armor, yellow flaming highlights and a solid gold pendant with "Eye'm the One" inscribed on it, but I suppose the dark, flaming and brooding look never really goes out of style either.

Cirdin: Right you are Elrond, say mind if I call you Ely?

Elrond: Yes.

Cirdin: Good, now back to Ely with the description of our other two combatants.

Elrond: I meant "Yes I mind being called 'Ely'" not "Yes, call me Ely" you idiot. Honestly you're some sort of super engineer building ships that sail the 'Straight Path" and all, but you can't even figure out a simple statement. What's so great about a ship sailing straight anyway huh? What if I want to turn?

Cirdin: Hey, my ships defy several laws of physics, unlike your wardrobe which just defies good taste.

Elrond: What's wrong with a gold and pink suit of armor with flared sleeves and bell bottum greaves anyway? Or maybe its my "Imladris IsmyBliss" necktie Mr. Fashion Police?

Cirdin: You are hopeless.

Sauron: Yo! Elf pimps! Get your commentary in gear! Some of us have worlds to conquer here and time's wasting!

Elendil: Yeah, you've been harping at each other for seven bloody years now. Honestly when my son Anarion died it was with a smile on his face and I know why. He managed to escape from you lot.

Isildur: Oh dad, how could you!?!?!

Elendil: Son I...

Isildur: Nobody understands my pain!! *bursts into tears*

Elendil: Kids these days, always dressing in black, with those stupid winged helmets and that fetish for Rings, no offense big S, always going on about the anguish of their lives.

Sauron: It's coo yo. You want me for to slap him around for you?

Elendil: No, he's my only son, gods preserve us, and I need him more or less intact.

Gil-galad: For the love of all that is holy! I don't age and I'm dying of old age over here. Also, this armor weighs a ton and my althlete's foot is killing me.

Elrond: Ewww, total information overload there. Anyway over here we have Elendil, King of Gondor and Mr. December in this year's "Numenorian Stud-Muffin" calender. Next to him is Gil-galad, general badass and winner of the "Crossdressing Elf Contest" for his portrayel of Luthein Tinuveil.

Gil-galad: Hey! That was a one time thing that you asked me to do for your wedding!

Cirdin: Oh yeah, then what about the "Ruin of Eriador" bash?

Gil-galad: You promised neve to talk about that!

Elrond: As much as I hate to interrupt you two ladies, we've got a war here. Get ready to Rummblee!

Cirdin: And they're off! Looks like Sauron's going for a slow and steady game here, he's playing dee. Elendil open up with his trademark overhand swing, and ohh! He goes down like a rock with a mace the size of an obese dwarf in his head! Looks like the Big S was feinting there.

Elrond: I think you meant "a mace the size of your obese dwarf mama". And his sword's broken too. Always thouht that thing was a cheap goblin knockoff of the dwarven original. Here's our boy Gil-galad coming in with a low swing before Sauron can recover his mace....!

Cirdin: I resent that, but to maintain our PG-13 rating I'll refrain from commenting on your ancestry. And Gil-galad has stabbed Sauron, who's now totally ripping off Lurtz from the movie and pulling himself up the spear. Always seemed painful to me. Then again, I'm not a timeless evil either. Maybe that's what does rocks his Ring, I always wondered about that spiky armor fetish he's got...

Elrond: Again, less with the information. And he's just roasted Gil-galad into a little cinder with a touch. Talk about burnin' hot love. I guess we know why nobody asks him for a second date!

Isildur: Nooo! I seeth with teenage fury! *chops off Sauron's ring*

Sauron: Hey, rugrat, watch the bling yo! Why this is genuine volcano forge....*falls apart*

Isildur: Genuine volcano forged? Darn, I saw one of those at the mall last time I went but they cost a ton. I mean, they only ever made, like, 1. *Grabs the Ring* Holy son of a vampire bat! HOT! BURNING! My life is pain!

Cirdin: Well folks, that's all. Tune in tomorrow for "Ranger Fred's wet T-Shirt Elf Babe Contest"

2) Balrog. If Sauron has the balrog things are going to be majorly ugly for the opposition. A balrog's fire whip is one of the most deadly and powefrul weapons in Middle-Earth. The pain is sufficient to drive off Ungoliont herself, and the balrogs kill many very powerful elves throughout the Silmarillion. I'm not saying the Balrog is going to bring down the Lich King, but an undead dragon isn't a reach. When it swoops in to breathe, flame lash it. If its not entangled, it'll take significant damage and be force to alter course. If it is entangled, just slam it into the ground repeatedly, then jump on and start burning and whacking away with the large, flaming sword.

oh gods, my sides hurt.

Maybe Sauron and LK should just have a break dance contest
from,
EE

Selrahc
2007-12-02, 06:39 PM
Destroyers are creatures of raw anti magic.

Immune to spells, they rip apart the enchantments of magical cretures, causing physical harm as they remove the spells. They are being of energy, and can fly. Against non magical foes they shoot blasts of energy.

They can only exist without feeding on magical energy for a little while. Most of the time, they take the form of obsidian statues, which unleashe pulses of dark energy healing and rejuvenating undead troops nearby. After a while, they can return to being Destroyers.

EvilElitest
2007-12-02, 06:53 PM
EE's rant returns

I missed this, but it was cute, so I'll go back for it. Neither does Ner'Zhul.

Wait, now i'm really confused, what are the two of your talking about?


I put Wraiths up as guards, they true sight-detect the Nazgul. Don't stop them though; Let them get to the central base, while quietly assembling my top Liches and Death Knights. I murder the Nazgul now that they're at my central command with no support, fighting the best I've got (Who are each at or near their level of power. FYI: I'm pretty sure the Lich King is immune to Morgul Blade corruption, as are his entire army.. but I could be wrong. Why don'tcha link me to exactly what they do? I'm pretty sure they require the target to be living...)
1. Sauorn's wraiths will see LK's wraiths
2. I wouldn't think it would effect him, but if just says that the blade need to entire a creatures chest in order for it to become a wraith. So it would work on necromancers, death knights, living servants, and possible arthas, but it is doubtful
3. fun fact, the nazgul can dominate lesser wraiths. Arthas might be in trouble
4. while i wouldn't use this plan, even if you kill hte nazgul, they just reform in no time, and they really only need to get one hit off on a death knight





Assuming he's not powerful enough to literally kill him, or do to him what was done to Morgoth. I'm pretty sure Sauron won't be at the height of his power after getting whacked.
once sauron dies the first time, he can no longer shape shift
oh i just came up with the perfect tatic, he can turn into that big dragon who fought in the war of the wraith to fight hte frost wryms. You know, the one the size of a mountain range? Anyone know his name?
Anyways, kill sauron the first time he losses his power to shape shift, but instently reforms
Kill him the second time, he takes a while to reform, but as long as the ring is intact he is fine (and rememer, the LK's forces would be greatly weakened by now, so the WK could run things for a while
e gone quite that far regardless; At least WG is trying to get both sides.



I would think, if they were there and didn't fight Sauron, they were probably fighting off his grunts to keep them from interfering... but the compromise of 4 is sound on that count. That explained, why don't we know they fought? (I'm asking for the sake of curiosity more then that.. if you knew definitely that they hadn't fought you'd say so :P)

Elrond says that Cirdin, Glorfindal, and himself fought with Elendil,Gil-ad, and Iseldul at mount doom against Sauron.

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if a Balrog could beat frost wyrms then. Sapphiron could probably take one, but not every Frost Wyrm is Sapphiron. If it were flying (Based on that), I'd probably swarm it with Gargoyles then.. though the Balrog would probably drop back to the ground. No sense exposing itself to anti-air death engine-ness when you can still smack 'em around from the ground.
I could see Sapphiron being a very nasty thread, but wouldn't the nazgul and Durin's bane just swarm it

Also, can someone remind me what a Destroyer is capable of? I haven't mentioned them because I honestly keep forgetting; I prefered humans/Orcs to the UD, so I just got through their campaign >.>
_______________
do they even work for the source?

The Frozen Throne? Arthas just sits up there because he has nothing better to do. It has no power. It formerly contained Ner'zhul's, the Lich King's, spirit, but Arthas put on the Lich Kings armor and the two fused.
Ah, this is so much easier, you might say. Just kill Arthas. Wrong. When Wrath of the Lich King was released, an example of Frostmourne was given. Its equip effect was: The wielder of Frostmourne will become the new Lich King.

You have to destroy Frostmourne, too, to get rid of Ner'zhul. Maybe. Beings of his power (like Medivh) just never die permanently.
1. techninglly, the LK's spirt is in Arthas' helmet
2. Frostmourn's final stats are debatable, i don't think we should reley on that until more infomation is revealed

Now, on the subject of the armies, I cannot see Sauron having a chance. His death knights are a match for the ring wraiths. There are 9 ring wraiths, there are most likely at least 100 death knights (most likely many more).
source please

Destroyers are creatures of raw anti magic.

Immune to spells, they rip apart the enchantments of magical cretures, causing physical harm as they remove the spells. They are being of energy, and can fly. Against non magical foes they shoot blasts of energy.

They can only exist without feeding on magical energy for a little while. Most of the time, they take the form of obsidian statues, which unleashe pulses of dark energy healing and rejuvenating undead troops nearby. After a while, they can return to being Destroyers.
__________________
1. wait, aren't these guys work for that old god guy
2. Source please
3. do they even work for hte scourge?
from,
EE

Selrahc
2007-12-02, 07:05 PM
1. wait, aren't these guys work for that old god guy
2. Source please
3. do they even work for hte scourge?

Take some time to format your reply. I don't even understand your first point.

But no, these guys work for the scourge. They are a unit that you can train. The source is Warcraft III Frozen Throne, and you can train them throughout the undead campaign, and in skirmish games.

EvilElitest
2007-12-02, 07:15 PM
Now i want to adress something, numbers


Could somebody link me to a source stating the Lich king's numbers, becasue that would be sweet.

Now sauron's monsters include

1. The orcs. Now he has a lot of these bastards. Let make a quick count
now the orcs of the northern misty mountains serve sauron, lets look at their numbers. at the battle of Five armies, he had enough orcs to totally surround a large mountain, swarm over it, attack an extremly defenseable position to fight 5,013 dwarves, and two larger forces of elves and humans, all of which were well trained and battle read. and one invisible hobbit with a magic sword. As well as swarms of basiclly dire ravens, and an extremly powerful wizard. now this force had just traveled through enemy terrotory that was empty of supplies without a break, so they were hungry, weakened and fatiged. They also had been hindered by hit and run attacked led by gandalf pior to their attack. Remember, all of Dain's forces were vetern's from the war of dwarves and orcs, and extremly skilled warriors (dain slews one of the greatest goblin kings), the elves were the best bowmen and very old, and Bard led the tough lake men, who were use to fighting and had a trained orginzed army. Dispite all of this, they were able to almost win, to the point that had not the giant eagles arrived. Now let me just say something first, the goblins and wolves charge across an open field, being swarmed by arrows from elves and lake men, both of whom are great archers. The van guard rushes into the vally, is caught in a trap and quickly destroyed, and the rest are bottle necked at the vally's opeing. the goblins numbers are so great that they over come the bottle neck, take the vally, and climb up the mountain itself to attack the free folk direclty in defensive postions. then Thorin and his 12 companions drop a massive wall upon them, slaying many and rush into their ranks attacking the body guard of the Bolg (goblin king) direcly. However, despite this, Thorin and two of his greatest warriors are slain, and all of the rest wounded. Gandalf makes a stand, and literally runs out of magic, fights with staff and Glamring, and has one of his arms broken. Both bard and the elven king are wounded. The goblins are assisted by wolves, and so many bats the the sun is literally blocked out. Now the great eagles come and drive the bats away, and attack the goblins directly, with the sun overhead However, even with the eagles the free folk could not win, until Beorn the sking changer appeared, a massive giant in the form of a great bear, and he was in a rage. However, even with his assistance, the goblins are to great, and so he slays Bolg and the goblins are routed. Now that is a hell of a lot of goblins. this is later described as a full 1/3 of all of goblins of the northern misty mountains and mount gundibad (goblin capital). So yeah, I'd say maybe 100,000 goblins and wolves at the battle of five armies, with 300,000 all together (this is just a guess however, we don't know how many elves and men there were at the battle, just that there were more of them than the dwarves)
Now there are also orcs of the grey mountains, and supposedly many of them, at least half that of the number mentioned above
There are also the orcs of the east, who attack the iron hills and hte lonely mountain later during hte battle of Dale and almost win (until sauron is defeated)
i'll finish up later
from,
EE

EvilElitest
2007-12-02, 07:16 PM
Take some time to format your reply. I don't even understand your first point.

But no, these guys work for the scourge. They are a unit that you can train. The source is Warcraft III Frozen Throne, and you can train them throughout the undead campaign, and in skirmish games.

1. I though these guys work for that old god who lives in the desert, C'thun or something like that
2. Can you provide me with a link of their powers
from,
EE

Thrivol
2007-12-02, 07:37 PM
http://www.wowwiki.com/Obsidian_Destroyer

The silithid originally used the destroyers. However, since the nerubians, which are silithid, were taken by the Lich King, the destroyers were added to the Lich King's forces.

Rutee
2007-12-02, 08:09 PM
you know what is also funny, with you linking all these niffty links, i'd think you'd accually read them
under the article on frostmourn
Are you illiterate? I didn't say he made Frostmourne. I said he made Runeblades, which is mentioned right in the Death Knight article; You said he can't make artifacts, I was disproving it. Is English your second language? If it is, that'd be good to know, because that'd be a logical to respond to you, spelling things out in utterly clear, unequivocal english.


are you sure? Because i haven't seen him use any warlock powers, well ever. If you can think of an example please let me know
Wise guy. Tell me why he'd lose them? I already know why he's lost his Shaman powers.


i've read it, and no, i doesn't prove a thing. His power is increased, and his consciousness expand ten thousand fold, and look. no details about his power. Proves absoutly nothing. Because this may seem strange, but without any you know, description of his powers, it simple proves that he is a powerful undead with lots of necromantic control spells. says nothing that will prove him being more powerful than ether lutherin or sauron
It proves exactly what you asked it to; That his power increases vastly from being the most powerful shaman, then warlock, that the Horde has. Lord and tailor.

Unless you were asking a Blizzard source to say that their character was outright more powerful then Luthien, which strikes me as an absurd request.

In fact, why don't you establish Luthien's power for us? I could do it, in theory, but as I have nfc who Luthien is, you probably wouldn't like my version.


sorry, just the wow wiki on the battle, where it states that Arthas was attacked by Blood elf, naga, and dwarven forces before fighting and defeating illidan. Logically, he must have out numbered his foes if he managed to get past, but he certainlly didn't fight ether the blood elf king, or the naga queen
....Stop talking. He certainly didn't fight the BE King or Naga Queen's Right Hand Woman? Really? Is /that/ why he had all those conversations with them in the battle? I must have been crazy. Trust me, in no sense does he outnumber his foes during his trip through the Nerubian passages (Where the Dwarves were), as he was /alone/ for a long portion of it, either.


1. I'm just going to wager a guess, but most likely because you points tend to ege toward totally irrelvant, or are granderouse claims that aren't back up. As you might have noticed, most of your links don't seem to have been read through properly
Proud little troll. I read them, you just misinterpret what I say based off them. And then when you don't find the proof to your misinterpretations, you assume I read them wrong.


I'll ask you this. If Morgoth did in fact die, why didn't tolkien say so? He specificlly said that Morgoth's spirt was banished, but not killed. He also specificlly says that Sauron's spirt would not die even if the ring was destroyed, just reduced to a minor evil. If Morgoth died, Tolkien would have said so as he did when talking about other characters that died
He did; He sheds his mortal coil, his spirit is sent to another plane (By force). By the definition of death I'm applying (DnD's, since everyone here should know it), that's quite dead. Tolkien didn't call that death, because his Spirit would come back (Like Zombie Evil Jesus), but eventual resurrection isn't a factor in the definition of death I'm applying. So yeah, Morgoth dies. And he's stronger then Sauron.


the book said that no other weapon could have hurt the ring wraith so much. So please tell me, how could the scourge come up with an anti undead holy weapon? Anti undead i might belive (they are fighting the forsakon) but holy?

Oh for Gods' sake. The book doesn't have other settings in it. No other option in Tolkien's verse may not have been that good, but that doesn't mean there aren't better options (For example, and since you love misinterpretting what I say, This has no direct bearing on the fight, Vampire Slayer, the ancestral weapon of the Belmont Clan, is probably better for it, with it's anti-undead enchantments.) No other LotR Blade may have been better; And hey, maybe there isn't a WC option that's better. But one can't automatically assume that based on Tolkien's writing, since Tolkien only had to think about Middle Earth and what was in /it/.

Honestly, some people.


but here is the catch. Even if Sauron is destroyed twice (I don't think ether one would try for an epic duel, they are both to smart) at great cost to the scourge, the army of the Sauron is still intact. The WK doesn't have to win, he just has to hold off the Scourge and damage their army as much as he can until his master reforms. your right, with the unlikely possibilty of hte WK (Arthas is male remember) no body can hurt Arthas in Sauron's force, but the WK doesn't have to, he just has to hold off the Scourge until his master returns, instently rebuilts his fortress and then gets back to destroying the scrouge
"The Witch King only has to hold off Arthas for 2000 years!"
Brilliant strategy.
And for the last god damn time. The Witch King is fated to survive his encounter with all men. Arthas is no longer a man; He's forsaken his soul, and his humanity. Lrn2readprophecy.


well you failed to counter it properly last time, so feel free to do so again
Really? You didn't disprove jack about it. That was a pretty good counter; Did I miss your counterpoint to it? By all means, supply it. Here was my point;

1: There's no such thing as Lightning Damage. Lightning attacks almost universally deal Nature Damage, which incorporates a lot of things
2: They don't want to nerf elemental shamans against undead. Why should they let a little thing like realism do that? I wouldn't either, in their shoes.
3: Same vein, handing that to Forsaken PCs would make UD Warriors ridiculously awesome tanks on bosses that love to use lightning, and it'd make for a pretty tangible benefit overall (Not a major one, but a very good one where it applies).
4: The thought that lightning doesn't (or 'shouldn't) actually affect undead never once occurred to Blizzard, since they've never had cause to ponder it
It's a gamist decision, nothing more; In the same vein, I wouldnt' say it really reflects on this discussion :P


The Frozen Throne? Arthas just sits up there because he has nothing better to do. It has no power. It formerly contained Ner'zhul's, the Lich King's, spirit, but Arthas put on the Lich Kings armor and the two fused.
Ah, this is so much easier, you might say. Just kill Arthas. Wrong. When Wrath of the Lich King was released, an example of Frostmourne was given. Its equip effect was: The wielder of Frostmourne will become the new Lich King.
If you check the Frostmourne Article, you'll see that the "Equip: Bearer is the New Lich King" idea was scrapped. Mostly because they saw Private Ownsusohard with Frostmourne.


You have to destroy Frostmourne, too, to get rid of Ner'zhul. Maybe. Beings of his power (like Medivh) just never die permanently.

I'm pretty sure they do, seeing as Archimonde is permanently dead. Granted, Medivh is more powerful (...maybe? He was using Sargeras' power, after all..)


they could have done that with Illidan i notice but they didn't
True, but they had less expectation to do it with Illidan.


i already provided you with the quotes proving who is more powerful, the fact you seem determined to ignore them doesn't make them any less relevant.
Yes, you have adequately shown Kil'Jaeden is more powerful. In fact, I said that without you establishing it. You have not established that Kil'Jaeden is far more powerful then Archimonde, or powerful enough to crush Archimonde; Just powerful enough to beat him.

In fact, this would be the third repetition of precisely these words, so if anyone is intent on ignoring anything, it would be you.


1. I just want to make this clear, but Illidan isn't a full demon. He isn't a real memeber of the burning legion, just a guy working for them. So no, the LK hasn't direcly fought the burning legion, just three dreadlords
You said "Defied Kil'Jaeden", not "Fought the legion directly".

I've got it! You're a PHB! You ask me for something, and then when I've found it, you insist that this isn't what you asked for, and say you asked for something different! No wonder you can't seem to speak English!

idently blowing up your own planet because you screwed your own spells ups doesn't convice me that he is a very compatent foe
You asked for a display of power; Destruction of a planet qualifies. The fact that he did it on ACCIDENT is a further sign of power.


I'm acting under the assumption that the prophersy refers to gender, not to race. Considering the fact the book says that only Eowyn could have slew the WK, i think that backs me up nicely. Only a female may kill him (interapation based on quotes). My guess is a human female (because that is what hte WK was refering to) but it is debatable
And I'm playing by the prophecy's rules. If it wants something besides a Human Man, something besides a Human Man it shall have. You just seem to have issues with the fact htat everything in the Lich King's arsenal qualifies, making the prophecy more then a little irrelevant in this fight, but I personally have no problem with that, for obvious reasons :P



they have masisve wings, they can fly well enough, and they are massive buring demons who can shoot fire and have 20 foot long flaming whips. I think that can get a few
Really? They can fly well enough? WG has doubts, but perhaps you can clear them up for us both. Please, by all means.


then logically, should every single soilders who has ever fought the scourge be dead now? we know that isn't true. Hell, in the Warcraft RPG the stats on undead says nothing about a plauge, the undead in wow don't give anyone the plauge, and my foot soilders in Warcraft three who fought the zombies stayed alive throught hte champain without dying of the plauge.



good point, but does the system translate. Remember, Arthas was the one of the greatest paladins and in Warcraft III he is only level 10 tops.
...Does the system translate? Do you mean, "Does being level 70 in WoW mean the same thing as being level 70 in WC3"? No, it doesn't. Or did you mean something else?


then logically, should every single soilders who has ever fought the scourge be dead now? we know that isn't true. Hell, in the Warcraft RPG the stats on undead says nothing about a plauge, the undead in wow don't give anyone the plauge, and my foot soilders in Warcraft three who fought the zombies stayed alive throught hte champain without dying of the plauge.[/quote[
Actually, a lot of Scourge in WoW do give the plague, later on, IIRC. They just don't do it early on because it'd be a bitch to non-Priests or Paladins to solo Scourge mobs. (Since those are the only classes with Disease cures).

[quote]
I talk english very good thank you very much. Also, this may seem strange and abnormal, but i'm just going to break it to you. Just because you say something is so, doesn't make it true. The LK is the final boss of Wraith of the Lich King. Illiden was the final boss of Burning Crusade. Illidan can be killed, so logically so can Arthas (they are both major lore characters). Now if Blizzard comes out with some definaite proof that he can't be killed i'll belive you, but considering the other major villian's tract record, i'm going to go with his dying
You read and write it very badly if you speak it well then (And no, I'm not referring to the joke). And if you won't believe me with something besides hand of god, then we're at an impasse.


1. Sauorn's wraiths will see LK's wraiths
2. I wouldn't think it would effect him, but if just says that the blade need to entire a creatures chest in order for it to become a wraith. So it would work on necromancers, death knights, living servants, and possible arthas, but it is doubtful
3. fun fact, the nazgul can dominate lesser wraiths. Arthas might be in trouble
4. while i wouldn't use this plan, even if you kill hte nazgul, they just reform in no time, and they really only need to get one hit off on a death knight
They just need to see them once, and Arthas will know they're there, pre-domination. Assuming that the Wraith would be seen, as Scourge wraiths are permanently invisible.
2. And of course, because it's an LotR effect, it's completely unmitigable. Oh wait; IT isn't. Arwen finds a way. And before you bring up the obvious; Healing magic isn't relevant. Knowledge of your constructs is.
3. Assuming they see it in the first place, perhaps.
4. They've never been killed by a being of Ner'Zhul or Sauron's power.

I could see Sapphiron being a very nasty thread, but wouldn't the nazgul and Durin's bane just swarm it
Why would Saph be alone? After seeing the Nazgul, I'd probably put my Death Knights and Liches on Dragon-back, really.. it's just logical.


do they even work for the source?
http://www.wowwiki.com/Obsidian_Destroyer
He stole the tech from the Nerubians, apparently.

And why is it we're the only ones who have to verify jack?

Edit: Whoops, was doing this from a document of random things, took out everything not for this.

warty goblin
2007-12-02, 09:11 PM
Since you asked, Rutee, here's a quick bio of Luthien Tinuvial (Nightingale, or daughter of twilight):

She's the daughter of Melian the Maia and Thingol, king of the Sindar elves. Thingol is described as the second most powerful elf to ever walk the earth, behind only Feanor himself. Melian is a sort of nature demigoddess, so Luthien's definately got the right ancestry. Luthien is also simply put the most beautiful creature ever to live, she is described as being so gorgeous she litterally glows. However, tragically, being drop dead stunning isn't a quality that's terribly relevent in vs. debates, so on to her more mundane powers.

She falls in love with Beren, a mere human, who is told that in order to marry her he must retrieve a Silmaril (think: if diamond's are a girl's best friend, then Silmarils are a god's. There's only three ever made by Feanor, greatest of the elves and the elves go to war for thousands of years to retrive them from Morgoth). Morgoth at this time is holed up in Angband, a triple peaked volcano, wearing the Silmarils in an iron crown. Beren is captured by Sauron en route and held at Tol en Gourhoth, the isle of werewolves. Luthien escaped from her father's house by stealth (it says she wove enchantment about herself, so the actual mechanics are somewhat vague), and, together with Huan, the wolf-hound of the gods, rescues Beren from tol en Gourhoth, although Luthien briefly swoons for fear of Sauron in werewolf form before he is defeated by Haun, and Luthien destroys the fortress with a song.

After that Beren gets into a fight with some particularly self-rightious elves and gets himself shot with an arrow. Luthien heals him, aparrently pretty much instantly, with herbs.

Luthien then disguises Huan to appear like a werewolf, and she takes the form of a particularly large and odious vampire bat, and travels very fast to cach up to Beren. The reunite. The then pass through "all perils", which sure sounds dramatic but is pretty useless for figuring out powers.

Here's the really good part. They get to the gates of Angband, which are guarded by Carcharoth, a talking demon-wolf the size of a house. Luthien basically goes all phsyco on his ass and makes him go to sleep by will power and radient beauty. They then descend through the maze of Angband, where Morgoth sees her and is overpowered with evil lust. She transfixes and paralyzes him with a song (it says she makes him feel like he's wandering the Void again) while Beren cuts the Silmaril out of his Iron Crown. They then flee, since Morgoth is waking up. Carcharoth is awake again, and Luthien is to tired to deal with him at the moment, so the wolf bites of Beren's hand, holding the Silmaril when Beren tries to ward him off with it (Silmarils are imminical to anything evil, although all evil beings covet them fiercely). Luthien can't replace Beren's hand, since its inside a industrial duty demon-wolf who's running berserk in agony, and the wound is contaminated with venom. She heals him and the escape.

Later, after a bunch of boring and romantic stuff happen, Beren is killed and Luthien dies of grief. The Eldar (elves) mourn her for the rest of time. After a time Beren and Luthien are reborn and live a simple and idylic life somewhere or another, but that's pretty much the end of the interesting bits.

So powerwise from this we can take:
Luthien is accomplished at passing undetected.
Luthien can shift her shape to just about anything
She can also charm gods out of their minds
She can heal almost any wound.
Luthien can destroy buildings with her will.

Not at all a weak being I'd say, although how she fits on the powerscale of this thread I'll leave to you lot to work out.

Setra
2007-12-02, 09:28 PM
The Lich king rushes at Sauron preparing to cut off the ring.. their eyes meet.. and they fall in love.

They elope and move to Hawaii.

warty goblin
2007-12-02, 10:22 PM
The Lich king rushes at Sauron preparing to cut off the ring.. their eyes meet.. and they fall in love.

They elope and move to Hawaii.

Then they go into the pre-cooked seafood business. Sauron kills fish by cannonballing into the water, causing a massive steam explosion and par-broiling the fish. The Lich King then uses his ice magic to freeze the fish for resale. Consumers report overall satisfaction, despite always needing more of their "precious fish" and slowly turning into zombies.

EvilElitest
2007-12-02, 10:50 PM
EE's rant, on ice


Are you illiterate? I didn't say he made Frostmourne. I said he made Runeblades, which is mentioned right in the Death Knight article; You said he can't make artifacts, I was disproving it. Is English your second language? If it is, that'd be good to know, because that'd be a logical to respond to you, spelling things out in utterly clear, unequivocal english.

temper temper. I admit i misread, i thought you said that he had made frostmorn, and i never said he couldn't make rune blades, i said he could make
1. Magical artifiacts
2. Holy weapons
calm down, it isn't worth a tempter tantrum, just requires both of us to be a little more clear on what we are saying



Wise guy. Tell me why he'd lose them? I already know why he's lost his Shaman powers.
well there are five reason why i think he lost them
1. I haven't seen him use any warlock magic from his death one words, even when it would have been smart to do so (using it against the dread lords, using it to fight against illiden, ect. So i believe he has lost his warlock powers as well as his shaman ones.
2. Kil'Jaeden created him, it would make sense that he would make him unable to use warlock magic in order to pervent him from binding his own servents
3. Once he turned traitor, Kil'Jaeden cut him off from his warlock magic (one possiblity)
4. In life he gave up warlock magic before his death, maybe he still doesn't use it
5. When he died, we was reborn as a new being, it would make sense he posses none of his former powers

It proves exactly what you asked it to; That his power increases vastly from being the most powerful shaman, then warlock, that the Horde has. Lord and tailor.

Unless you were asking a Blizzard source to say that their character was outright more powerful then Luthien, which strikes me as an absurd request.
no i'm asking you to provide as source stating excatly how powerful he is. Aka, what powers, other than extreme undead magic can he use? Because you make these grand claims, but nothing really proves how powerful he is. From memory, i recall his powers include
1. Massive necromanitic magic. Can control unlimited amounts of undead over a massive distance. Not perfect (see forsaken) but still powerful
2. Can raise almost any creature from the dead (a few exceptions, but not many)
3. Can drain life from his foes
4. Super melee skills
5. Frost mourn
6. Limited mind powers (needs some way to commune with them first)
7. Lots of personal power
8. Lots of destroying powers
9. Can transefer his soul with his helmet
10. Can create plagues and new undead
I know i'm forgetting somethings, but not god magic i belive


In fact, why don't you establish Luthien's power for us? I could do it, in theory, but as I have nfc who Luthien is, you probably wouldn't like my version.
Lutheran is Malar, half super elf (her father was one of the ogrinal elves) and is basiclly the most powerful elf in existence.


....Stop talking. He certainly didn't fight the BE King or Naga Queen's Right Hand Woman? Really? Is /that/ why he had all those conversations with them in the battle? I must have been crazy. Trust me, in no sense does he outnumber his foes during his trip through the Nerubian passages (Where the Dwarves were), as he was /alone/ for a long portion of it, either.
1. He talks to them, he never fights them (other wise they would be dead). He fights their forces
2. i'm talking about the final battle, not the caverns. He has no forces there



Proud little troll. I read them, you just misinterpret what I say based off them. And then when you don't find the proof to your misinterpretations, you assume I read them wrong.
Thank you for making absolutionly no attempt at proving me wrong. If you idea of a counter is calling me a troll, well we can see why this debate is getting volatile. By the by, just for future reference, please read the next links, or at least the quotes i produce from them, because the tend to turn up a lot of information



He did; He sheds his mortal coil, his spirit is sent to another plane (By force). By the definition of death I'm applying (DnD's, since everyone here should know it), that's quite dead. Tolkien didn't call that death, because his Spirit would come back (Like Zombie Evil Jesus), but eventual resurrection isn't a factor in the definition of death I'm applying. So yeah, Morgoth dies. And he's stronger then Sauron.
but you judging Morgoth as mortal. For a mortal, shedding hte mortal coil means death, not for a Valar. For the Valar, their true form is their spirit, a mortal form is more like a vessal. So technically, he is reduced to his true form and then banished from the world.


Oh for Gods' sake. The book doesn't have other settings in it. No other option in Tolkien's verse may not have been that good, but that doesn't mean there aren't better options
Can you site an example of a Nazgul killing weapon at the scourges disposal. Just because i'm willing to actually follow the rules of the debate (using source materials) doesn't mean you should throw a tantrum. Now in Tolkion's book, he sites that only the barrow swords (holy anti undead weapon) could hurt the Nazgul. Now Nazgul only exist in his own world, thus logically, they only follow the rules set down by tolkion. When you bring in other methods of killing them that aren't cannon, then we are losing any control of the debate. Only an holy anti undead weapon can hurt them. Does the scourge have one of those. Yes they do, think for a second.


(For example, and since you love misinterpretting what I say,
Your mixing cannon and non cannon and you yell at me for getting confused?


This has no direct bearing on the fight, Vampire Slayer, the ancestral weapon of the Belmont Clan, is probably better for it, with it's anti-undead enchantments.)
Vamprie slayer? Never heard of it.


No other LotR Blade may have been better; And hey, maybe there isn't a WC option that's better. But one can't automatically assume that based on Tolkien's writing, since Tolkien only had to think about Middle Earth and what was in /it/.
so you saying we should totally disregard cannon material. Oh god this is going to be trouble


Honestly, some people.
like to stike to cannon, quotable, proven sources. How silly of us.


"The Witch King only has to hold off Arthas for 2000 years!"
Brilliant strategy.
Sauron didn't take 2000 years to return, he just took that long to come back to mordor (he remained hidden for political reason) but in reality it only takes a year maybe for his spirt to return (enough to take control of his army) and only a few years for him to regain a mortal form (we are assuming he had a form when he lived in Dul-Guldor)



And for the last god damn time. The Witch King is fated to survive his encounter with all men. Arthas is no longer a man; He's forsaken his soul, and his humanity. Lrn2readprophecy.

can you prove it. I have the interpretations as human female, because it describes Eowyn as the only one who could have killed teh WK (or any other human female i suppose)
can you prove me wrong?

Really? You didn't disprove jack about it. That was a pretty good counter; Did I miss your counterpoint to it? By all means, supply it. Here was my point;
if you read my posts, this might be simpler. I'll just repost what i posted the first time, page four, post number 104

1: There's no such thing as Lightning Damage. Lightning attacks almost universally deal Nature Damage, which incorporates a lot of things

Ok, well if lighting does nature damage, and a storm is nature, i'd go with lighting working the same way.

2: They don't want to nerf elemental shamans against undead. Why should they let a little thing like realism do that? I wouldn't either, in their shoes.

ok, then lighting effects undead. i can why the designers wanted it that way (it works in Warcraft three by the way) but we know it does way

3: Same vein, handing that to Forsaken PCs would make UD Warriors ridiculously awesome tanks on bosses that love to use lightning, and it'd make for a pretty tangible benefit overall (Not a major one, but a very good one where it applies).
t
he point is, lightning effects undead, thus it will effect these dragons. reason is unimportant

4: The thought that lightning doesn't (or 'shouldn't) actually affect undead never once occurred to Blizzard, since they've never had cause to ponder it
[QUOTE]actually executor provided a perfect example on why lighting would effect undead, and quite frankly i don't care why blizzard allows it, only that they did and thus we know that Sauron's lighting will effect frost wryms

It's a gamist decision, nothing more; In the same vein, I wouldnt' say it really reflects on this discussion :P I don't care why Blizzard made it so lighting effects them, what is important is that it does
here you go, my responses that you never countered



If you check the Frostmourne Article, you'll see that the "Equip: Bearer is the New Lich King" idea was scrapped. Mostly because they saw Private Ownsusohard with Frostmourne.
That explains a lot


I'm pretty sure they do, seeing as Archimonde is permanently dead. Granted, Medivh is more powerful (...maybe? He was using Sargeras' power, after all..)
shrug, there is no way to really know



True, but they had less expectation to do it with Illidan.
but it shows they are more than willing to kill of major lore characters in expansions, thus the possibilty of Arthas being killed by PCs is still open.


Yes, you have adequately shown Kil'Jaeden is more powerful. In fact, I said that without you establishing it. You have not established that Kil'Jaeden is far more powerful then Archimonde, or powerful enough to crush Archimonde; Just powerful enough to beat him.
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????
Did you read the quotes
I provided evidence showing that Kil'Jaeden is more powerful that Archimonde, but at least a moderate amount. Thus Kil'Jaeden could kill Archimonde, though it would be a difficult fight. And so, Kil'Jaeden is more powerful than Archimonde, though perhaps by only a little bit.
Now you claim that Arthas could kill Archimonde (doubtful, considering what it took to kill Archimonde) and so he likely could kill Kil'Jaeden, which is strange because he hasn't directly faced off with any of the major members of the Burning legion
Am i missing anything?
page 5 post 139
1. he never fought the legion directly

In fact, this would be the third repetition of precisely these words, so if anyone is intent on ignoring anything, it would be you.
because i've provided evidence that you seem to unable to comperend or just ignoring it.


You said "Defied Kil'Jaeden", not "Fought the legion directly".
Please, at least quote me correctly


I've got it! You're a PHB! You ask me for something, and then when I've found it, you insist that this isn't what you asked for, and say you asked for something different! No wonder you can't seem to speak English!
Wow, your certainly mature. I think the reason your so confused is that you seem to not read what i'm saying, as in that you have on several occasion failed to quote me correctly, back up your point correctly, counter my point because you failed to realize i had already countered yours and generally showed ineptitude with hte whole backing up points thing. You might want to some calling me black mr. pot



You asked for a display of power; Destruction of a planet qualifies. The fact that he did it on ACCIDENT is a further sign of power.
So, he can't control his own power. Accually, techincally that power was drawn from the demons of the twistend nether and really doubt they are giving it to him any more. Fine i'll rephrase, any great dispels taht the Lich king has shown? Other than controlling the undead.


And I'm playing by the prophecy's rules.
And yet your ignoring the fact that the book says that only Eowyn could have Slain the WK (or some other human women is suppose) and the fact the reason she killed him was because she was a women.

If it wants something besides a Human Man, something besides a Human Man it shall have. You just seem to have issues with the fact htat everything in the Lich King's arsenal qualifies, making the prophecy more then a little irrelevant in this fight, but I personally have no problem with that, for obvious reasons :P
the lich king has a holy anti undead sword and women at his disposal, if he wants to sacrificers one of his women fighters to kill the WK temporaly.



Really? They can fly well enough? WG has doubts, but perhaps you can clear them up for us both. Please, by all means.
by fly well enough, i mean they can stay in air and grap onto the thing they are trying to kill. I agree with WG's assestment.



...Does the system translate? Do you mean, "Does being level 70 in WoW mean the same thing as being level 70 in WC3"? No, it doesn't. Or did you mean something else?
more like does a level 70 Wow character=a level 10 Warcraft character. And how powerful are they excalty in Tolkion universe? That is rather important



Actually, a lot of Scourge in WoW do give the plague, later on, IIRC. They just don't do it early on because it'd be a bitch to non-Priests or Paladins to solo Scourge mobs. (Since those are the only classes with Disease cures).
Really, can you show me the stats? By plague i assume you mean the scourge plauge in that they will automaticlly die (unless healed by a paladin or priest) and after dying will become an undead?



You read and write it very badly if you speak it well then (And no, I'm not referring to the joke). And if you won't believe me with something besides hand of god, then we're at an impasse.
you took a whole quote and only responded to the joke? Dear gods, at least try to play by the rules.


2. And of course, because it's an LotR effect, it's completely unmitigable. Oh wait; IT isn't. Arwen finds a way. And before you bring up the obvious; Healing magic isn't relevant. Knowledge of your constructs is.
1. Hostil much. i think it is this anoying little temper that is preventing you from reading the bloody posts
2. I agreed with the assement that it wouldn't effect the frozen throne, and i was doubtful that it would effect Arthas. So in reality, i'm agree with you, but considering you seem to view accully reading my posts as a sin i wouldn't expect you to know
3. the morgul blade was cured by super holy healing magic.


3. Assuming they see it in the first place, perhaps.
Nazgul can see spirts and invisible creatures. And now the lich king is going to have his own wraiths against him.


4. They've never been killed by a being of Ner'Zhul or Sauron's power.
It doesn't make a difference what kills them, as long as the ring is around the reform near Sauron.


Why would Saph be alone? After seeing the Nazgul, I'd probably put my Death Knights and Liches on Dragon-back, really.. it's just logical.
accully, there isn't much of an advantage for death knights on dragon back. Lichs i get, range, but the death knights don't have much range (they have some, but not a lot) , it will be hard for them to hit the nazgul when the fel beast and the dragons are fighting in mid air and if the dragon is killed the death knight is dead. I mean i can see some advantages, but Sauron could just have his nazgul suiced attack the dragons to kill both the dragon and teh death knight. Also, a rider could be knocked off by the giant bats



http://www.wowwiki.com/Obsidian_Destroyer
He stole the tech from the Nerubians, apparently.
interesting.

And why is it we're the only ones who have to verify jack?
Accually, we do verify stuff, you just seem to like avoiding responding or acknowledging stuff. Also we already got our points straight in the last thread

from,
EE

EvilElitest
2007-12-02, 10:52 PM
Hey Warty Goblin, where is Rowen and the other Sauron dudes? And i'm getting tried, so can you back up some of my points please
oh yeah, can you back me up on the whole WK female thing, who do you think is right

Also, question for Wow fans, do death knights rot? I mean are their bodies dead, or are they more preserved than anything else, with their heart still beating ect.?
Also, are death knights free willed (other than the four horsemen)
Can they think for themselves


from,
EE

warty goblin
2007-12-03, 12:02 AM
Hey Warty Goblin, where is Rowen and the other Sauron dudes? And i'm getting tried, so can you back up some of my points please
oh yeah, can you back me up on the whole WK female thing, who do you think is right

Also, question for Wow fans, do death knights rot? I mean are their bodies dead, or are they more preserved than anything else, with their heart still beating ect.?
Also, are death knights free willed (other than the four horsemen)
Can they think for themselves


from,
EE

I do my best, but I really have no knowledge of this Warcraft stuff. The best I can do is provide lots and lots of research into what various entities in Tolkein can do. That said, here's an interesting point.

We have, both of us, come up with lots of verifiable power estimates from Tolkein, which is, to say the least, difficult. There's a lot of material, and its not written to be translated into character X can do Y. This means of course that all of our statements must be taken with a grain of salt due to the lack of precision in the source data.

However, the Warcract side has a different problem. Like us, they have to deal with a lot of information, which seems to contradict itself every now and then as well. Unfortunately a lot of this information is from WCIII or WoW, both of which rightly put gameplay ahead of fluff, just like Tolkein put mythic tone ahead of numbercrunching. That is, all of the information that we dredge up from the Silmarillion or elsewhere is 100% canon character ability. Any gameplay based example is fluff strained through the hard filter of Blizzard's impecable gamebalance, and hence is far less useful for determining a character's abilities. The dragons being hit by lightening debate is a perfect example of this.

I'm not sure how useful the above bit is, I just thought it might lend some perspective to the debate.

Now I will summerize Sauron's powers once again, with commentary on their relevance.

Anti-Magic Sauron defeats every spell cast at him throughout the history of Middle Earth. This does not of course mean that he can deflect every spell ever cast in any fiction, but it would have to be a real humdinger of a spell to hit him. Given that, as far as I can tell, neither EE or Rutee has been able to come up with an example of the Lich-King using offensive magic in his Lich King form, I'd consider magical attacks against Sauron completely worthless.

Offensive Magic Unfortunately there really isn't any description of Sauron using magic offensively. However we do know that he is a powerful sorcerer, and so can extrapolate from other Middle Earth magic. Clearly Gandalf's holy beams of light aren't something that evil incarnate is going to break out, but things like manipulating fire and lightening is well within his capability. All in all, given the lack of evidence I'd call this one a wash.

Melee Skill I have already provided substantial evidence here, but will go over it again. It takes five or six, accounts differ, truly powerful melee fighters to overpower Sauron once, the best two of them are killed. In other words, Sauron is a tough cookie to take down up close. He's also burning hot and completely immune to fire (he lives in a volcano for a while IIRC). Sauron's touch alone kills. Its also unclear, at least from the Silmarillion, whether or not he even uses a weapon- its description of the Last Battle says he "wrestled" with Elendil and Gil-galad. Personally I take this as a generic term to describe combat, not actually wrestling them in the usual sense. Of course a more literal interpretation is also possible. Either way, he is probably at least the third greatest fighter in the history of Middle Earth, behind Morgoth, and Fingolfin alone, although he could even be above them. I'm not seeing one single warrior, no matter how skilled, taking him down.

Strategic Skill Sauron, of all literary villians, seems to play things the closest to the way a truly ferocious gamer would. I never when reading LOTR went "why the hell is he doing this?? Is he a moron?" This occurs fairly frequently with other fictions. Take his assualt on Middle Earth in the Third Age. He uses multiple armies with redundant backups, all the while creating internal havok among his enemies before attacking. The primary army he sent to Minas Tirith was enough to defeat both the defenders and the Rohirrim, even after Gandalf rallied the defenders. It took three enemy armies to destroy two of his, one of which they had to use a one time supernatural assist to pull off. He launched similarly massive assaults on the rest of Middle Earth, and still had enough force pent up in Mordor to make the armies he sent out look small. In short, he virtually guarenteed his victory while still leaving enough to recover from defeat. And if the Ring hadn't been destroyed he still would have won, he had plenty of tricks left in the bag, and his enemies were out of them.

He also throughout time manages the oversight and construction of massive fortifications. Angband, of which he was originally in charge, was so well fortified the gods had to destroy the entire continent to take it down. Serious logistical ability is suggested by this sort of thing. In short, he's not going to make any mistakes to take advantage of.

Personality Sauron is, as shown above, a meticulous planner and loves order and efficiency. He also can be incrediably convincing. He fooled the elves into making the Rings, and the Numenorians into devil worship and attacking the gods themselves. During the latter he reduced the King of Numenor to a puppet in three years. In short, if Sauron went out for debate in high school, he'd not only take first place, but also second and third, and probably get the judges to give him their car keys after giving a speech on Reagan's economic policy. If somebody sits down at the negotiating table with Sauron, they are going to get screwed and not even realize it.

Control of Evil As stated, all evil done in the world in the end benifits Sauron, either directly or indirectly. Nothing evil can really "win" a war with Sauron, since by doing what they do, evil, they make him stronger and further his goals instead of their own.

Conclusion: I will give the Lich King one thing, I've had to do way more research for this thread's five pages than Sauron vs. Voldemort's 35. But Sauron really is a pretty much complete package, the only area which he lacks is in offensive magic, but his defensive magic is good enough to make up for it. Strategically, physically and personally, Sauron is a very formidable being, and unless the Lich King posesses powers that have not yet hit the table, Sauron will triumph.

EE, I hope this helps.

Rutee
2007-12-03, 03:40 AM
I suppose it's natural for human beings to divide themselves into sides and the like. Strikes me as unhelpful. It leads to group think and a lack of proper examination. For instance, you didn't look over EE's individual points (one way or the other). In point of fact though, I'm just not posting to EE anymore. Firstly, those posts have grown stupid long (Not blaming anyone on that), and I have to establish limits for myself or I'm never clearing a game again. Second, unless his last post has increased in quality by a thousandfold, he's been misinterpretting me either on purpose or by vast negligence; I'm not making headway either way. So.


I'm not sure how useful the above bit is, I just thought it might lend some perspective to the debate.
Yeah, it does. And I'm trying my hardest to minimize mechanics... Like I said to EE, I'm avoiding, say, WoW PC power because.. seriously, by 70, properly gearred, (not to speak of 80 and whatever cracked out gear they have), you're probably on par with the LotR heroes you're using as a baseline; And it takes double digits of them just to take out anyone of worth.


Conclusion: I will give the Lich King one thing, I've had to do way more research for this thread's five pages than Sauron vs. Voldemort's 35. But Sauron really is a pretty much complete package, the only area which he lacks is in offensive magic, but his defensive magic is good enough to make up for it. Strategically, physically and personally, Sauron is a very formidable being, and unless the Lich King posesses powers that have not yet hit the table, Sauron will triumph.
I'm cutting to the end, but a point of notice here; He does in fact possess powers that haven't hit the table yet. Problem is that that's the entire problem; They haven't hit the table yet :P


Control of Evil As stated, all evil done in the world in the end benifits Sauron, either directly or indirectly. Nothing evil can really "win" a war with Sauron, since by doing what they do, evil, they make him stronger and further his goals instead of their own.

Is that the exact wording on it? "Doing evil makes Sauron Stronger"? Because that.. actually would have very little bearing on this. I mean, I'm not doubting it's veracity; Merely that I wouldn't consider the vast bulk of the fighting to be evil. How can it be? There's no motive. They don't care about each other's land, and we've already uninvolved any unaligned party, so there's no innocents to carry out atrocities on (There would be if this were a more realistic nation, but neither has need of civvies. At best, Sauron has some farmer orcs/men, and I'd be vaguely surprised if they weren't armed.


Anti-Magic Sauron defeats every spell cast at him throughout the history of Middle Earth. This does not of course mean that he can deflect every spell ever cast in any fiction, but it would have to be a real humdinger of a spell to hit him. Given that, as far as I can tell, neither EE or Rutee has been able to come up with an example of the Lich-King using offensive magic in his Lich King form, I'd consider magical attacks against Sauron completely worthless.
Well, we can agree that Ner'Zhul, as is, is more powerful then either in his own life, Arthas' life, or his best spellcaster lieutenant, Kel'Thuzad, right?
Kel'Thuzad doesn't seem to be too far behind Archimonde, looking at damage (Notably, his highest hitting ability is more powerful then Archimonde's non-Lolz highest hitting ability, Lolz-highest hitting meaning it has caveats that are there to keep you fighting the battle 'properly', nothing more.)

In life..
Wow, actually. He may have broken Draenor on accident, but he didn't actually care about doing it, going off WoWiki (Not like I've played WC2). He just wanted to clear the Orcs off of Draenor. And in fact, he succeeded quite marvelously at it. The portals tore Draenor apart, but most of remaining Orcs seem to have gotten off of Outland/Draenor. In fact, it may (*MAY*) have torn the planet up on purpose. Out of spite; After all, aside from the Horde, what was on Draenor? The Alliance forces that had marched through the Dark Portal... of course, I can't say that definitively at all. Only someone who's played WCII can, and it is far too late in the night for me to be stealing a game I don't care about.



The dragons being hit by lightening debate is a perfect example of this.
Point of quibbling; It's undead. I have no issue with Dragons being smacked by Lightning. It's that corpses don't really have anything that lightning would actually harm, what with not using the central nervous system, and the fact that Lightning simply doesn't destroy human bodies (Maybe if you have really freaking high voltage.. I'd have to check).

OH! That's what's with the Weak to Fire claims. There's no /moisture/. And against, say, a Ghoul, who's mass is mostly the dry, cracked skin or skin mass, they /would/ be weak to fire. When mass is not mostly that dry skin (A Skeleton, for example), fire would not be terribly effective. Alright, this makes total sense. Plus there's myths of Vampires fearing fire. I knew the mythic part of it, but not the rest. Alright, sensical, under the proper conditions.



Melee Skill I have already provided substantial evidence here, but will go over it again. It takes five or six, accounts differ, truly powerful melee fighters to overpower Sauron once, the best two of them are killed. In other words, Sauron is a tough cookie to take down up close. He's also burning hot and completely immune to fire (he lives in a volcano for a while IIRC). Sauron's touch alone kills. Its also unclear, at least from the Silmarillion, whether or not he even uses a weapon- its description of the Last Battle says he "wrestled" with Elendil and Gil-galad. Personally I take this as a generic term to describe combat, not actually wrestling them in the usual sense. Of course a more literal interpretation is also possible. Either way, he is probably at least the third greatest fighter in the history of Middle Earth, behind Morgoth, and Fingolfin alone, although he could even be above them. I'm not seeing one single warrior, no matter how skilled, taking him down.
Now, I find this curious for a moment. It's a bit late for me to be digging stuff, but I must ask; If you think that there are people more powerful then Sauron in melee (I recognize you have doubts; Take this as a hypothetical) why would they not be able to defeat Sauron alone?


Personality Sauron is, as shown above, a meticulous planner and loves order and efficiency. He also can be incrediably convincing. He fooled the elves into making the Rings, and the Numenorians into devil worship and attacking the gods themselves. During the latter he reduced the King of Numenor to a puppet in three years. In short, if Sauron went out for debate in high school, he'd not only take first place, but also second and third, and probably get the judges to give him their car keys after giving a speech on Reagan's economic policy. If somebody sits down at the negotiating table with Sauron, they are going to get screwed and not even realize it.
This strikes me as mental influence, not personality. Regardless, Ner'Zhul seems to have grown into a fairly good planner himself; Bear in mind his primary opponent, strategy-wise, is a thinker bearing the title, among an order of demons that spans multiple planets, "The Deceiver", and who's modus operandi in destroying worlds is sewing discord among its groups, getting them to destroy each other in inter-faction war, then marching his troops in to do mop up on the mortals before starting on any present deities. It's kinda like Sauron, but on a grander scale, with less concern on corruption (Which certainly adds a layer of difficulty; Kil'Jaeden doesn't care about what happens after everything's dead, seems like) and undefeated until Azeroth (Which beat his machinations twice). However, most of those machinations were, unfortunately, offscreen. Presumably, Blizzard is less brilliant then their villain. I can empathize. (I go off fluff reputations more then actual actions; It seems like usually, a 'good tactic' is only good because the setting forces it to work. By the time we get to beings of this intellect, we're talking about people far smarter then their authors :P)

I'll have more specifics up in the morning.

Adumbration
2007-12-03, 11:05 AM
Alllrighty then. On this post, I am going to try and work out how a battle of the forces of LK and Sauron would work out. For this purpose, I am going to eliminate some variables from the equation, either becouse they have no bearing on the battle or that they would make it extremely complicated.

This is the battleground: An enormous (say, infinite) battlefield where the two forces clash. On the long term, the strategical aspects really have no bearing on this (such as whether someone attacks from the hills, etc,etc). This is meant to measure the brute strength of their armies and battlefield wits, not hypothetical corruption of forces and such as. For convenience, the battle goes in waves, to prevent either force from making a fatal mistake in a one go. (Such as, sending the whole army into a certain death-situation.) I'm doing a bit of a guesswork on Sauron's tactics (I don't know tue qualities of his troops as well as I know LK's), so please do inform me if you think it could go some other way.

Both LK and Sauron sit back for now, controlling their units and observing. The battle begins. The meatwagons empty their contents on the field and the necromancers start raising some skeletons. These are the first wave - the army of skeletons. (In WC3, 2 skeletons were raised from each corpse, but if it suits you, it may as well be 1.) Ghouls and some nerubian spiders provide backup, but they also try not to get killed, the ghouls healing from the corpses and the crypt fiends burrowing when near death.

Sauron sends out orc grunts, the basic fodder of the army. The armies clash. In the end, the grunts defeat the skeletons, but only barely. (This is guesswork.) This is where Arthas sends out his death knights. The death knights, escorted by ghouls, swoop down to the battlefield extremely fast (Unholy aura: increases movespeed and regeneration) and finish off the orcs before they manage to retreat. The death knights reign the battlefield.

Next, I can only assume, Sauron sends out human warriors, slightly better than the orcs. The death knights hold fast, until they come near enough. Then they use their most powerful spell, Animate Dead. (This is a bit tricky for me, though. In WC3 the animated corpses were invulnerable, but in my opinion, this makes no sense, so I'm going to say that they're as good as they were alive. For the record, though, they can use it about once a couple of minutes.) The first wave of Sauron attacks his second. The death knights retreat to obsidian statues to recover mana and health, leaving the corpses to battle.

Writing this through may take a while.... Anyway. The battle goes on. I've described the basics of the undead tactics. Now I'm going to address how special units are most likely to work.

The nazgul. They will most likely take flight with Smaug and other dragons at some point of the battle. This is what I think would happen. After watching them butcher troops for a little while, LK gives a command. The death knights are off. The flying steeds of the ringwraiths are alive, I think. So the dks use Death Coil, yet another spell of theirs (heals undead, damages living). Taking that there are only 9 ringwraiths, it is quite safe to say that they are down to ground-battle. The death knights start harassing them from their mounts, healing each other with Death Coils and Unholy Pacts (destroys a friendly undead unit for hp.)

Meanwhile, frost wyrms and gargoiles go after the dragons. The gargoiles go first, most likely massively outnumbering the dragons. They are relatively weak in comparison to them, a single breath takes them easily. Still, a lot of them get to close combat, landing on the dragons and gnawing on their wings. And when the dragons are occupied with the gargoiles, the frost wyrms strike with their breath weapons. Eventually the dragons, too, go down, if I'm not completely wrong. This means more animated dragons!

I'm getting tired right now, so I'll continue this later, possibly. But I think it's clear at the moment, that in face-to-face combat, the undead prevail by far.

warty goblin
2007-12-03, 11:41 AM
Only if Sauron behaves like a moron and keeps throwing troops into the meatgrinder. Sauron is not a moron however and as soon as the undead start to do their raising act he'll start to think of a counter. Given that by your battleplan they start doing this before the battle even starts, its not going to be much of a suprise.

Here's my guess as to what he'd do. His formidable artillary starts a creeping barrage while Sauron, escorted by the Nine, who are on foot, and some Black Numenorians/other elite troops advance into the thick of the undead, behind the barrage. Between the fear auras of the Nine and Sauron, any living beings will flee the scene, as well as likely any intelligent undead. This just leaves the meatbags, whoa re getting tossed about by the artillary pretty good. Zombies are not a threat to Sauron and the Nine however, and will be reduced to componant limbs fairly quickly. If the deathknights engage, they will be doing so with swords only, as Sauron's presence locks down their magic. Once they move in, Sauron will order a few hordes of orc to attack, miring them in lesser foes, allowing him and the Nine to destroy them in detail.

The dragons are hanging back, protecting and protected by the main body of orcs and evil men, as is the Balrog.

This is also generally consistant with Sauron's battles in the past, he tends to keep his valuable units safely in the rear until they are needed. If orcs and suchlike are enough to win, so much the better, orcs are cheap. If not, then the enemy will be mired in orcs and much more vulnerable to attacks by the powerful units. The only stretch is him personally entering the fight in that mannor, but we know he does this if the enemy is powerful enough, which the Lich King clearly is.

Adumbration
2007-12-03, 11:59 AM
You know... If Sauron engages in combat, you can be sure that Lich King throws his most powerful units against him, including the death knights, wyrms, liches, destroyers, abominations and maybe even Arthas himself on Sapphiron, in hopes of swift victory.

I'm not sure, but it may be that destroyers are capable of nulling some of the excessive magic that Sauron is apparently throwing around him. And if that's not enough, I'm pretty sure that Lich King's presence takes it down for good. This is when the liches go nova with their frost magic, while abominations provide meatshield and the destroyers and wyrms give heavy barrage from above. The death knights take advantage of their superior speed (mounted + aura) and charge through the ranks of the Nine, giving glancing blows with their runeblades. Sapphiron dominates the sky high above, with Lich King providing powerful offensive spells and protection.

The troops will die by the thousands, sure, but it's worth it, if they manage to trap the Nine and Sauron. Eventually, when the Nine has been dispatched, (temporarily, or not) the Lich King will land and engage Sauron in combat with his most powerful knights and liches. Eventually someone will get a lucky shot and remove the arm.

EvilElitest
2007-12-03, 12:05 PM
Thanks Warty Goblin, that helps, when i have more time i'll take a total inventory of the Lich kings powers

I suppose it's natural for human beings to divide themselves into sides and the like. Strikes me as unhelpful. It leads to group think and a lack of proper examination. For instance, you didn't look over EE's individual points (one way or the other). In point of fact though, I'm just not posting to EE anymore.

Oh god, bad idea. I know i should't do this, because this gives me a huge advantage, but really i just have to say, bad idea. Not re
Firstly, those posts have grown stupid long (Not blaming anyone on that), and I have to establish limits for myself or I'm never clearing a game again. Second, unless his last post has increased in quality by a thousandfold, he's been misinterpretting me either on purpose or by vast negligence; I'm not making headway either way. So, please, don't do it, i'll give you reasons why
1. It allows me to tear apart your posts at my leisure without fear of a response. Basiclly, if you make any post, i can counter it (weather i do so correctly is besides the point) and even if i am totally wrong, you won't counter back. Not good, it makes you basiclly unable to respond
2. You aren't able to counter my points, thus allowing me to make over the top grand claims without fear of being countered. Also bad idea, because misinfomation spreads. For example, i forgot about what destroyers do. If you hadn't sent me a link, i would't have belived that they served the scourge (For warty goblin, basiclly flying magic suckering monsters). Or that Arthas' final fight at the frozen throne, checking my sources i realize these numbers are to vauge to count, i just know taht Arthas did not take on three heros at once)
3. It makes you look silly. I'm just saying this as an insult, but when your not responding to my points, and yours are just out there, then a massive amount of the argument is being ignored
4. You can't force me to verify sources. Thus you can't force me to prove what i've been saying (i have so far, but still) and thus leave yourself at a massive disadvantage
5. If your going to debate, go through with it. Even with unpleasent people such as my self (in my defense, i feel just about as offended as you most likely do, but i'm not quiting)
so if you want to help your self, but it is not a good idea, and personally it is no fun to agrue with somebody who isn't responding
just three more points
1. I feel just about offended as you do, i would like to point out, you call me illiterate and a troll first, and i'm still here
2. lack of proper excamaination goes both ways
3. I'm presuming that warty goblin agrees with me, as you are the only one to raise this complant


Yeah, it does. And I'm trying my hardest to minimize mechanics... Like I said to EE, I'm avoiding, say, WoW PC power because.. seriously, by 70, properly gearred, (not to speak of 80 and whatever cracked out gear they have), you're probably on par with the LotR heroes you're using as a baseline; And it takes double digits of them just to take out anyone of worth.
so is it offical that we are taking out PCs in wow?


I'm cutting to the end, but a point of notice here; He does in fact possess powers that haven't hit the table yet. Problem is that that's the entire problem; They haven't hit the table yet :P
sadly, that means for hte purpose of the present debate, unshown powers must be assume to not exist. If we give the LK powers that we haven't seen, then we can do the same with Sauron, and then it gets ridiculous


Is that the exact wording on it? "Doing evil makes Sauron Stronger"?
Yes accually, but the situation varies. In every sitaution where this has been said, evil was accually making Sauron stronger, i don't know if all evil makes him stronger (though i know he can control it.
finish later
from,
EE

WalkingTarget
2007-12-03, 01:17 PM
Is that the exact wording on it? "Doing evil makes Sauron Stronger"? Because that.. actually would have very little bearing on this. I mean, I'm not doubting it's veracity; Merely that I wouldn't consider the vast bulk of the fighting to be evil. How can it be? There's no motive. They don't care about each other's land, and we've already uninvolved any unaligned party, so there's no innocents to carry out atrocities on (There would be if this were a more realistic nation, but neither has need of civvies. At best, Sauron has some farmer orcs/men, and I'd be vaguely surprised if they weren't armed.


Specifically, all discord in the world was a result of Melkor (who became Morgoth) trying to add his own themes to the music that created the universe (and in Tolkien there's a strong music/magic metaphor; spells are sung, for example). All conflict is due to his interfering in the world, including his influence on Sauron who in turn stirs up trouble and takes over management after Morgoth is kicked to the curb.

I see your point on that, Rutee, but losing individual "bodies" has little effect on valar/maiar inherent power (the only thing that losing a body does in and of itself is further restrictions on what body choices you have) and he can keep coming back short of divine intervention, or somebody equally qualified, removing him from existence altogether. However, I agree that once brought down and losing infrastructure and personnel a rematch involving armies is increasingly unlikely to be significant.
I guess a point is (and I've got very little knowledge of the LK in general) can the LK come back on his own if he is defeated? If we're talking pre-ring Sauron, he can take a licking and keep on ticking (and even post-ring as long as the ring isn't actually destroyed, but if we're talking "height of power" versions, then it has to be pre-ring Sauron).
Unless a combatant has the ability to remove a spirit from all of reality, he can't actually get rid of Sauron permanently (or at least until the end of time in which case he's still around for the Final Battle/Armageddon/Ragnarok/etc assuming that he hasn't squandered all of his power by investing it in material things). Is the LK, or anything in Warcraft, as persistent? (this is an honest question, I don't know enough about him) That was my point on mortality, which, again, is not entirely relevant to who would win a one-fall match if that's what we're assuming here.

Anyway, that's the rationale for saying that Sauron is a source of evil, Tolkien kind of set him up that way. However, we're getting into plot-related flavortext here and I'm not sure that it applies to the issues at hand.

Other assorted points:

On dragons: Tolkien dragons are set up differently than most modern depictions. They are, within the setting, universally evil, vile, and foul (there is no such thing as a "good" dragon and they aren't beautiful), but also virtually indestructible on their armored areas, but they have the drawback of not having this armor on their bellies. As the original dragons didn't fly and they slunk around very low to the ground, this was still difficult to take advantage of. Smaug had artificially armored himself on the underside (but a small patch had come undone) which is what Bard had to aim for (after he was clued in to look for it in the first place). As captain_decadence said, there was nothing magical about Bard's gear, he was just a good shot and took advantage of the situation. Warcraft dragons don't seem to have this problem, but then again, they can eventually be worn down with regular weaponry striking them anywhere (again, a problem of being in a game that assumes that anything can be killed). On the topic of skeletal dragons and lightning: how old are the bones? There is usually plenty of juicy, marrowy, goodness in long bones that would still be susceptible to heat damage unless there's been enough time for all of that to dry out.

On the top-billed fighters in Tolkien: Morgoth fought with Fingolfin and won. Sauron has not been shown to fight either. Fingolfin was the greatest warrior of the Children of Illuvatar, so he gets top billing for any non-divine good guy in Tolkien. He put up a good fight and got in a good eight hits on the big guy before he got stepped on (well seven, then he got stepped on and stabbed at the foot as a parting shot as he was crushed). Sauron was more calculating than Morgoth in his strategies, whether this would make him a better personal combatant is up for speculation, but he fought at minimum 2 excellent foes with an implication of up to 3 more (and perhaps more unnamed individuals - there were 3 survivors of the final assault on Sauron, the number of casualties is unspecified beyond Elendil and Gil-galad) and had a narrow loss. While indeed mighty, none of these heroes are specifically mentioned as being superior than the likes of Fingolfin or Turin.

The Witch-king and prophecy: "Protection" offered by prophesy is non-existent. The Witch-king is not immune from harm except by non-male/non-human entities, the prophecy is worded to take into account the in-plot circumstances of his defeat. All you need to defeat him is the ability to get around his magical defenses and then wound him mortally. If we're going to allow any kind of inter-world transparency, I'd say that holy-type attacks would do the trick (but the LK's forces probably don't have that handy). Otherwise, the high-magic Warcraft setting could probably come up with other ways to subvert the protections, but I don't know any offhand.

Interacting with Nazgul: On that note, I saw somebody bringing up Nazgul intangibility. Also makes little sense seeing as they wear clothes and wield material weapons. Ooo, think of in WoW when you die but before you return to your corpse. They are in that world all the time, but, unlike player characters, can actually interact with things on the living side and vice versa. If you're "alive" in the game you can't see them, and they have trouble seeing you, but they're still physically there.

Black Nmenreans: They had their kingdom in Umbar during the Second Age (or at least those who weren't caught on Numenor itself when it was destroyed), but they'd dwindled during the Third in Sauron's absence. The Mouth of Sauron was important, and likely powerful in his own right, but we have absolutely no data on the remainder of that group in the Third Age (hmm, unless there's something in one of the History of Middle-Earth books that I haven't read), so saying that there are a lot of them or that they're all powerful sorcerers is speculation.

warty goblin
2007-12-03, 03:32 PM
You know... If Sauron engages in combat, you can be sure that Lich King throws his most powerful units against him, including the death knights, wyrms, liches, destroyers, abominations and maybe even Arthas himself on Sapphiron, in hopes of swift victory.

I'm not sure, but it may be that destroyers are capable of nulling some of the excessive magic that Sauron is apparently throwing around him. And if that's not enough, I'm pretty sure that Lich King's presence takes it down for good. This is when the liches go nova with their frost magic, while abominations provide meatshield and the destroyers and wyrms give heavy barrage from above. The death knights take advantage of their superior speed (mounted + aura) and charge through the ranks of the Nine, giving glancing blows with their runeblades. Sapphiron dominates the sky high above, with Lich King providing powerful offensive spells and protection.

The troops will die by the thousands, sure, but it's worth it, if they manage to trap the Nine and Sauron. Eventually, when the Nine has been dispatched, (temporarily, or not) the Lich King will land and engage Sauron in combat with his most powerful knights and liches. Eventually someone will get a lucky shot and remove the arm.

Charge through the ranks of the nine? On horses? No horse will even get close to a Nazgul unless specially trained. The Nine also have nothing to fear from being struck by a charging horse, at most it'll just stagger them, so they won't move. Horses won't run into an imobile, hostile abomination radiating fear intense enough to route armies.

There's another point to consider when discussing hurting Nazgul. To my knowledge,the only time a Nazgul is actually bested in hand to hand combat is the Lord of the Nazgul against Merry and Eowyn, both of whom were fulfilling, or at least covered by, a prophesy. This part has been argued to death. The important bit is that "no other sword" than Merry's could have hurt the Witch-King. Merry's sword is an Arnorian blade especially forged to damage the Witch-King and his creations. A general purpose magic sword just won't cut it (literally in this case). We don't know for a fact, but given that the other Nazgul are the same basic type of thing as the Witch-King, its reasonable that they are similarly invulnerable to non-specific weapons.

Then there's the Olag-Hai. They are basically uber-trolls under the direct comand of Sauron, so they can't be routed, panicked or possessed. They are also invulnerable to normal weapons. Ghouls and zombies will break on a rank of Olag-Hai like water on rock. Entities of sufficient power can kill them yes, but there's a lot more Olag-Hai than there are beings powerful enough to kill them. Give me these guys over abominations anyday.

Furthering Sauron's battle line of doom are dragons, which have been discussed, but bear reitariting. The intellegent LOTR dragons are pretty much gods of mind control and memory manipulation. Besides that, as long as they don't take off, they are pretty much invulnerable again, and have those nifty flamethrowers at the front- fire hot enough to destroy very powerful magical artifacts. Support their flanks and nothing will get through them in a hurry. That's what the olag-hai are good for. To make things better, Sauron can stand in front of the dragons without worry, since he's a burning hot warrior who lives in a volcano. Fire is not going to affect him, no matter how hot.

Here's my revised battle-plan: Form up as follows

Put the dragons on the ground, cover their flanks with olag-hai. Mass orcs to support the Olag-Hai. Keep the catapults in the rear and bombard the enemy. Fix their minimum firing range to about 50-75 in front of the battle-line. Enemies approaching the line will be broken up by the artillary fire before contact, at which point they will be easy to mop up and destroy in detail. The dragon's breath furthers this, as they can easily keep large stretches of territory free. Keep Sauron, the Nine, and the Balrog back and use as directed against any particularly powerful beings that break through the dragonfire. Toss in weather-working to blow the smoke back over the enemy lines, some nice lightening bolts can also be tossed into the enemy position.

Selrahc
2007-12-03, 03:58 PM
Charge through the ranks of the nine? On horses? No horse will even get close to a Nazgul unless specially trained. The Nine also have nothing to fear from being struck by a charging horse, at most it'll just stagger them, so they won't move. Horses won't run into an imobile, hostile abomination radiating fear intense enough to route armies.

Undead skeletal horses. And the damage will be from the powerful magic blades that the Death knights carry.



Then there's the Olag-Hai. They are basically uber-trolls under the direct comand of Sauron, so they can't be routed, panicked or possessed. They are also invulnerable to normal weapons. Ghouls and zombies will break on a rank of Olag-Hai like water on rock. Entities of sufficient power can kill them yes, but there's a lot more Olag-Hai than there are beings powerful enough to kill them. Give me these guys over abominations anyday.

Why are they invulnerable to normal weapons? Just by looking at the wiki entry, it seems like they are just slightly better trolls, with some body armour. Who would probably be a good one on one match for abominations.



Put the dragons on the ground, cover their flanks with olag-hai. Mass orcs to support the Olag-Hai. Keep the catapults in the rear and bombard the enemy. Fix their minimum firing range to about 50-75 in front of the battle-line. Enemies approaching the line will be broken up by the artillary fire before contact, at which point they will be easy to mop up and destroy in detail. The dragon's breath furthers this, as they can easily keep large stretches of territory free. Keep Sauron, the Nine, and the Balrog back and use as directed against any particularly powerful beings that break through the dragonfire. Toss in weather-working to blow the smoke back over the enemy lines, some nice lightening bolts can also be tossed into the enemy position.

So the plan is to mass together every powerful being that Sauron posseses into one mailed fist? In order to say... strike at the Northrend.

Thats pretty cool actually. It would make for one epic ass encounter between him and the Lich Kings army. I still think that the Lich King can just overpower it, eventually.

Although I have a question... how come Sauron didn't just smash the army of the last alliance with Dragons and Balrogs? Why even bother spawning orcs, or personally fighting?



The intellegent LOTR dragons are pretty much gods of mind control and memory manipulation.

Based on what? Smaug sure wasn't. He was touted as being tricksy, and that he could manipulate you into revealing more than you intended, but he didn't really do too well against Bilbo. And he didn't evidence any ability of supernatural mind altering powers, as opposed to just being a crafty and old being.

WalkingTarget
2007-12-03, 04:33 PM
Based on what? Smaug sure wasn't. He was touted as being tricksy, and that he could manipulate you into revealing more than you intended, but he didn't really do too well against Bilbo. And he didn't evidence any ability of supernatural mind altering powers, as opposed to just being a crafty and old being.

Glaurung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaurung). Entrances one of the greatest heroes ever (within Tolkien's writing) with a glance long enough for an entire city's population to be dragged past him in chains while they call for his aid. Later finds the same hero's sister and erases her memory. To make eye-contact with him basically immediately puts you under his spell.

He and Smaug are the only dragons to get speaking parts in any of the text, so they're all we have to go on (only 2 others are even named).

I'm not convinced that Sauron could coerce Balrogs and Dragons to fight for him if he's not acting as the direct representative of Morgoth. Smaug (or his ancestors) was around during the War of the Last Alliance, and doesn't make an appearance, neither did Durin's Bane (granted, it had not yet been "awakened" or whatever). I think it's sort of like the collapse of Alexander's empire after his death. When Morgoth was defeated, all of his powerful subordinates went their separate ways. Some hid (like whatever Balrogs remain), some set up shop in out of the way areas they could dominate (like Smaug), and Sauron tries starting his own evil empire franchise. He may be the most powerful Maia remaining for team evil, but I don't think he's powerful enough relative to the other heavy hitters to force them into helping him. They joined up with Morgoth in the first place because he was as strong as all of the other Valar put together (at least initially). I know there's the line about "all evil creatures" or whatever, but that might not be meant as an intrinsic quality, just that all of the antagonists that are expected to be encountered work for him.

warty goblin
2007-12-03, 04:39 PM
Undead skeletal horses. And the damage will be from the powerful magic blades that the Death knights carry.

Fine, they can charge, but it won't do any good, in fact it will do the opposite of good, Nazgul sidestep and cut the horse's legs out from under it. I already covered this bit, but Nazgul apparently can only be harmed by weapons specifically designed to do so. Runeblades are not, hence my conclusion that the deathknights may as well be using brooms.



Why are they invulnerable to normal weapons? Just by looking at the wiki entry, it seems like they are just slightly better trolls, with some body armour. Who would probably be a good one on one match for abominations.

Because along the entire battle-line at the Black Gate, only Pippin kills one. Beregond whacks one with his sword and the blade is notched IIRC, or was that Boromir in Moria with the cave troll? Either way, Troll's can't be cut with ordinary weapons.




So the plan is to mass together every powerful being that Sauron posseses into one mailed fist? In order to say... strike at the Northrend.

Thats pretty cool actually. It would make for one epic ass encounter between him and the Lich Kings army. I still think that the Lich King can just overpower it, eventually.

Although I have a question... how come Sauron didn't just smash the army of the last alliance with Dragons and Balrogs? Why even bother spawning orcs, or personally fighting?

Pretty much yes, but then that seems to be what the Lich King is doing, so I figured Sauron would do the same. And yes, it would be very very badass. Probably so badass that nothing would grow there ever again.

I'm really not sure why Sauron didn't use the dragons etc against the Last Alliance. However I have several possible explanations.
1) They were there, the books just don't say. Clearly this is not the case for the Balrog, his location is always known. Personally I consider this to be very unlikely.
2) Lack of pressing reason. The dragons are not exactly at Sauron's beck and call, and the Last Alliance wasn't picking any fights with them. Hence they can simply keep their fangs out of it.
Why would they fight now? is the obvious followup question, for which I also have an answer. Now they do have a reason. Dragons have a rather express interest in continuing to live, and ancient ties of allegience with Sauron. Faced with a horde of undead, including dragons, they have every reason to fight and are smart enough to know that Sauron offers them their best bet at victory and survival.

Another more subtle reason has to do with the terms of this fight. Since its happening on this blank featureless plain with both armies gathered there in their entirety, Sauron gets forces that are usually elsewhere, still doing his bidding, but not on hand for immediate use. Thus the balrog, and to a lesser extent, the dragons.




Based on what? Smaug sure wasn't. He was touted as being tricksy, and that he could manipulate you into revealing more than you intended, but he didn't really do too well against Bilbo. And he didn't evidence any ability of supernatural mind altering powers, as opposed to just being a crafty and old being.

The Silmarillion actually. Glaurong in particular, he routinely modifies people's memories throughout his portion of the tale, a feat that not even the gods ever do. Granted Smaug is no Glaurong, but he's the same beast. Hobbits are also very very resiliant to any attempt to control them, and Bilbo was particularly resistant even for a hobbit. Smaug also had no reason to mess with Bilbo in this manner, he was merely bored and wanted to go back to sleep.

Rutee
2007-12-03, 05:13 PM
[aside] I see your point on that, Rutee, but losing individual "bodies" has little effect on valar/maiar inherent power (the only thing that losing a body does in and of itself is further restrictions on what body choices you have) and he can keep coming back short of divine intervention, or somebody equally qualified, removing him from existence altogether. However, I agree that once brought down and losing infrastructure and personnel a rematch involving armies is increasingly unlikely to be significant.
Thanks, really. Like I said, I acknowledge killing them is hard to do. I haven't a clue on whether the LK would be qualified. Any outright power he may be missing from deity level should be made up for by mastery over necromantic magic, and fair skill in dimensional magic.


Fine, they can charge, but it won't do any good, in fact it will do the opposite of good, Nazgul sidestep and cut the horse's legs out from under it. I already covered this bit, but Nazgul apparently can only be harmed by weapons specifically designed to do so. Runeblades are not, hence my conclusion that the deathknights may as well be using brooms.

Given the Forsaken, why wouldn't he enchant his Runeblades to be anti-Undead? Or at least have the capability to do so?


Here's my guess as to what he'd do. His formidable artillary starts a creeping barrage while Sauron, escorted by the Nine, who are on foot, and some Black Numenorians/other elite troops advance into the thick of the undead, behind the barrage. Between the fear auras of the Nine and Sauron, any living beings will flee the scene, as well as likely any intelligent undead. This just leaves the meatbags, whoa re getting tossed about by the artillary pretty good. Zombies are not a threat to Sauron and the Nine however, and will be reduced to componant limbs fairly quickly. If the deathknights engage, they will be doing so with swords only, as Sauron's presence locks down their magic. Once they move in, Sauron will order a few hordes of orc to attack, miring them in lesser foes, allowing him and the Nine to destroy them in detail.
LK's Undead are completely immune to the effects of a Fear Aura. If it were a Turn Undead aura, or something similar, that might be different, but a standard Fear aura's not even going to get the Acolytes (Because literally the entire army is undead :P). I will not debate, at this time, capability to put up a Turn Undead Aura, merely that the Fear Aura is going to be completely useless.

Also your tactics are predicated on Sauron's troops being completely better, which hasn't really been shown. Including your superior artillery point; Can you back that up, please? Until you can back up superiority on a pound for pound basis, any set of tactics predicated on this is completely flawed. Also, if Walking Target is right, then I'd handle this in the single most obvious manner; Send my flyers after the Siege. It worked for Parson in Erfworld and for me in the last battle of the NE campaign :P No, seriously though, without the heaviest of the air cover (Dragons, Balrogs)? Siege is a pretty easy target for flyers. Notwithstanding that some of your other points (Miring the opposition with your weaker troops; Windmills just don't work that way. Both sides are always going to be losing maneuverability in a prolonged melee skirmish) are equally flawed, I suppose.. so yeah, you need to start backing up statements.


Otherwise, the high-magic Warcraft setting could probably come up with other ways to subvert the protections, but I don't know any offhand.

There's something of a bevy of Anti-Undead enchantments within WoW, so I can surmise that such subversions exist. The most powerful that a PC has access to (And that, likely, exist) are in the hands of the Argent Dawn, which is a global cross-faction organization dedicated to wiping out the Scourge, IIRC, which seems pretty sensical.


Why would they fight now? is the obvious followup question, for which I also have an answer. Now they do have a reason. Dragons have a rather express interest in continuing to live, and ancient ties of allegience with Sauron. Faced with a horde of undead, including dragons, they have every reason to fight and are smart enough to know that Sauron offers them their best bet at victory and survival.


I thought we had already uninvolved the unaligned people. Therefore, the dragons are at 0 risk from this, period... So if they're more concerned about their survival then they are Sauron (Which, given the Last Alliance's apparent lack of Dragons... they are) why are they fighting?

warty goblin
2007-12-03, 05:32 PM
The Lich King may be able to enchant weapons to be anti-undead, I don't know. My point was that the off-the-shelf versions won't work. My other point is that cavalry is in fact, overrated. Even ordinary orcs will be effective against a mounted enemy, at least until they dismount him. They then can mob him before he can recover. Do deathknights have any special resistances to being stabbed? I don't know to be honest, so please enlighten me.

I'm not up on the effectiveness of Warcraft Artillary, but I do know the power of Sauron's. His catapults can throw rocks over the walls of Minas Tirith without difficulty- walls so high the defenders think it laughable that the enemy even brought catapults. Given the limits placed on most RTS artillary, I'm pretty sure that, at least as originally concieved, Warcraft artillary has far lower range.

The dragons will in fact fight for Sauron as previously demonstrated. You said there's no neutral forces involved. The dragons aren't neutral, they are evil, and as previously stated, therefore work at least indirectly for Sauron. Hence when trotting out all of the Middle-Earth forces under Sauron's authority, the dragons and balrog will be among them. Of course this also means that he controls the marketing industry, a thought truly to terrifying to consider...

Rutee
2007-12-03, 06:16 PM
The dragons will in fact fight for Sauron as previously demonstrated. You said there's no neutral forces involved. The dragons aren't neutral, they are evil, and as previously stated, therefore work at least indirectly for Sauron. Hence when trotting out all of the Middle-Earth forces under Sauron's authority, the dragons and balrog will be among them. Of course this also means that he controls the marketing industry, a thought truly to terrifying to consider...
Actually, I stopped saying neutral in the alignment sense a while ago, after someone decided to be cute and brought up the Burning Legion after it. I've been saying "Unaligned", which the Dragons are. They work for themselves. Neither they nor the Balrogs fought against the Last Alliance, apparently, and the only authority you're mentioning now "They're evil, therefore, they automatically serve Sauron" certainly would have applied then as much as it would now. Further, WT did bring up a fairly noteworthy point; We have reason to equivocate what is meant by "All is evil serves Sauron". Especially since there is a legitimate line of reasoning for that doubt (Already explained by WT). His interpretation also makes complete sense dramatically.


I'm not up on the effectiveness of Warcraft Artillary, but I do know the power of Sauron's. His catapults can throw rocks over the walls of Minas Tirith without difficulty- walls so high the defenders think it laughable that the enemy even brought catapults. Given the limits placed on most RTS artillary, I'm pretty sure that, at least as originally concieved, Warcraft artillary has far lower range.
Ah hah, I see. This is a fluff vs. Setting time again, naturally, but if we assume that they're not better then ordinary catapults, then yes, that'd be a pretty handy win for Sauron (Now that you've backed /that/ up). Of course, that still means I'd simply use my air superiority (Sans Dragons/Balrogs, and I'm not really convinced yet, at all, that they're fighting) to make 'em falldowngoboom before they become a major factor.

I'm willing to bet that the Horde catapults/Alliance Steamtanks are on much more even footing though, on an unrelated note.. Gnomes live and die by their engineering, and Horde Catapults seem to be Goblin-designed, Goblins being the Gnomes' Engineering rivals.

warty goblin
2007-12-03, 06:52 PM
Actually, I stopped saying neutral in the alignment sense a while ago, after someone decided to be cute and brought up the Burning Legion after it. I've been saying "Unaligned", which the Dragons are. They work for themselves. Neither they nor the Balrogs fought against the Last Alliance, apparently, and the only authority you're mentioning now "They're evil, therefore, they automatically serve Sauron" certainly would have applied then as much as it would now. Further, WT did bring up a fairly noteworthy point; We have reason to equivocate what is meant by "All is evil serves Sauron". Especially since there is a legitimate line of reasoning for that doubt (Already explained by WT). His interpretation also makes complete sense dramatically.

This is admittedly debatable for dragons, but less so for the Balrog, who is described as "the most powerful and terrible of the servants of Sauron" IIRC. Keeping him in Moria makes pretty good strategic sense, since it gives Sauron a power in the North to contend with Lorien and Rivendell. There is also significant wisdom in not revealing the Balrog, since nobody knew what exacty Durin's Bane was, although Gandalf clearly had a fairly good idea. There's also the bit where the Balrog did not emerge in Moria until the Third Age of the Sun, after the Last Alliance, which was at the end of the Second Age of the Sun. Before that it couldn't fight for Sauron since it had most of a mountain sitting on its head, and was hence unavailable for comment or destruction. Sorry I didn't drag this information out earlier, I just uncovered it again. *mutters about massive amounts of information to dig through*

Sauron may or may not get Dragons, he certainly gets the Balrog.


Ah hah, I see. This is a fluff vs. Setting time again, naturally, but if we assume that they're not better then ordinary catapults, then yes, that'd be a pretty handy win for Sauron (Now that you've backed /that/ up). Of course, that still means I'd simply use my air superiority (Sans Dragons/Balrogs, and I'm not really convinced yet, at all, that they're fighting) to make 'em falldowngoboom before they become a major factor.

I'm willing to bet that the Horde catapults/Alliance Steamtanks are on much more even footing though, on an unrelated note.. Gnomes live and die by their engineering, and Horde Catapults seem to be Goblin-designed, Goblins being the Gnomes' Engineering rivals.

Agreed, this is a fluff vs. game mechanics thing again. However the only evidence we have of Warcraft Artillary is mechanics as far as I know. Both of the examples of artillary you gave may be on par or superior to Sauron's I admit, but without hard data, which is unavailable from both sides, its impossible to really judge, but then again neither of them are under the Lich King's control, so its somewhat irrelevant.

As for protecting the catapults, that's what archers are for. Lots and lots of archers. Sure there might be some friendly fire incidents, but hey, orcs kill each other all the time anyway, so what's the difference?

EvilElitest
2007-12-03, 08:19 PM
Really rutte, ignoring me is going to be a bad idea, but don't say i didn't warn you


I'm not doubting it's veracity; Merely that I wouldn't consider the vast bulk of the fighting to be evil. How can it be? There's no motive. They don't care about each other's land, and we've already uninvolved any unaligned party, so there's no innocents to carry out atrocities on (There would be if this were a more realistic nation, but neither has need of civvies. At best, Sauron has some farmer orcs/men, and I'd be vaguely surprised if they weren't armed.
1. Both sides are using evil methods
2. Both sides are in fact evil
3. Both are made up of evil forces (undead, wraiths, ect)
4. torturing somebody who is guilty and evil is just as evil as torturing an innocent. Commiting atrocities on non innocents is still evil
5. Southern mordor is all fertile (volcano's ashes make fertile plans) and he has a huge slave forces as well as an entire orc subspecies bread for slavery (snaga)

Well, we can agree that Ner'Zhul, as is, is more powerful then either in his own life, Arthas' life, or his best spellcaster lieutenant, Kel'Thuzad, right?
Kel'Thuzad doesn't seem to be too far behind Archimonde, looking at damage (Notably, his highest hitting ability is more powerful then Archimonde's non-Lolz highest hitting ability, Lolz-highest hitting meaning it has caveats that are there to keep you fighting the battle 'properly', nothing more.)
1. Just to claify, are you refuring to archimonde in WOW vs. Kel'thuzad in WOW? Because you don't accually fight archimonde to the death, techinically you just fight him to hold him off
2. Does it say taht he is a better caster than Kel'Thuzad? Just want to know
n life..

Wow, actually. He may have broken Draenor on accident, but he didn't actually care about doing it, going off WoWiki (Not like I've played WC2). He just wanted to clear the Orcs off of Draenor. And in fact, he succeeded quite marvelously at it. The portals tore Draenor apart, but most of remaining Orcs seem to have gotten off of Outland/Draenor.
no it was an accident, he wanted to escape Kil'Jaeden's control.

Point of quibbling; It's undead. I have no issue with Dragons being smacked by Lightning. It's that corpses don't really have anything that lightning would actually harm, what with not using the central nervous system, and the fact that Lightning simply doesn't destroy human bodies (Maybe if you have really freaking high voltage.. I'd have to check).
realisticlly true, but we have to accept some things. In Wow, dragons with rotting wings can fly, dispite it being logicilly impossible. In Warcraft, dragons also can be hurt by lighting in a normal fashion, with absolutely no resistances. Does it make sense? No, but if these dragons get hurt normally to lighting, then we have to assume it is true

Now, I find this curious for a moment. It's a bit late for me to be digging stuff, but I must ask; If you think that there are people more powerful then Sauron in melee (I recognize you have doubts; Take this as a hypothetical) why would they not be able to defeat Sauron alone?
Morgoth vs. Sauron in melee would win, but Finaglon (or however you say it) would have trouble, because he lost against morgoth, and sauron, unlike morgoth, doesn't have a quick tempter. However i do think Sauron would have a lot of trouble with mr. F

This is the battleground: An enormous (say, infinite) battlefield where the two forces clash. On the long term, the strategical aspects really have no bearing on this (such as whether someone attacks from the hills, etc,etc). This is meant to measure the brute strength of their armies and battlefield wits, not hypothetical corruption of forces and such as. For convenience, the battle goes in waves, to prevent either force from making a fatal mistake in a one go. (Such as, sending the whole army into a certain death-situation.) I'm doing a bit of a guesswork on Sauron's tactics (I don't know tue qualities of his troops as well as I know LK's), so please do inform me if you think it could go some other way.

we have already established that fortresses count in the villian's favor

just to point out, how long does it take for a body to rise in service of the Lich king if a necromancer does not cast a raise spell on it? Does it just rot?

Abumbration, Sauron has mordor at his disposal, why would he go in for a field conflict when he can build up his forces

Oh and i look up on Sauron's shape shifting powers

He has limits, he can't turn into anything. The creature must be
1. A living being, he couldn't turn into inanimate creatures
2. Must exist. He could only turn into creatures that he had seen (were wolves, vampires, snakes ect). Dragons weren't around yet, and so Sauron didn't turn into one. So he can't turn into something he is just imagining.
3. He can turn into a bigger version of something else. Remember, he turned into a werewolf bigger than the biggest living werewolf. Remember, at he time of this fight he has in fact seen dragons, a dragon the size of a mountain range, and he can turn into a bigger version of that. He lost his power to shape shift before he had any reason to shape shift in combat, so we don't know he can't do it.
So he could turn into a super sized dragon, (about hte size of a small mountain range) rage hell, eventually get killed, instently reform and resome his old tatics

I guess a point is (and I've got very little knowledge of the LK in general) can the LK come back on his own if he is defeated? If we're talking pre-ring Sauron, he can take a licking and keep on ticking (and even post-ring as long as the ring isn't actually destroyed, but if we're talking "height of power" versions, then it has to be pre-ring Sauron).
If you kill Arthas, you then have to destroy his helmet. But i think thati s pretty much it. I know he can't move his spirit at will

Black Nmenreans: They had their kingdom in Umbar during the Second Age (or at least those who weren't caught on Numenor itself when it was destroyed), but they'd dwindled during the Third in Sauron's absence. The Mouth of Sauron was important, and likely powerful in his own right, but we have absolutely no data on the remainder of that group in the Third Age (hmm, unless there's something in one of the History of Middle-Earth books that I haven't read), so saying that there are a lot of them or that they're all powerful sorcerers is speculation.
were assuming that Sauron has all of his troops, from all three ages (though the Lich king does as well i think)
wait, am i right there?

Charge through the ranks of the nine? On horses? No horse will even get close to a Nazgul unless specially trained. The Nine also have nothing to fear from being struck by a charging horse, at most it'll just stagger them, so they won't move. Horses won't run into an imobile, hostile abomination radiating fear intense enough to route armies.
hey fun fact, remember the mouth of sauron? He and his body guards rode skelatoal fire breathing horses. Something to bear in mind.

There's another point to consider when discussing hurting Nazgul. To my knowledge,the only time a Nazgul is actually bested in hand to hand combat is the Lord of the Nazgul against Merry and Eowyn, both of whom were fulfilling, or at least covered by, a prophesy. This part has been argued to death. The important bit is that "no other sword" than Merry's could have hurt the Witch-King. Merry's sword is an Arnorian blade especially forged to damage the Witch-King and his creations. A general purpose magic sword just won't cut it (literally in this case). We don't know for a fact, but given that the other Nazgul are the same basic type of thing as the Witch-King, its reasonable that they are similarly invulnerable to non-specific weapons
to my knowlage, the lich king only has one holy anti undead weapon that his dudes can use, Ashbringer (am i right there). So that would work, though only once, any weapon that touches him is destroyed.
and warty goblin, remember, Smaug can act as areal support

Put the dragons on the ground, cover their flanks with olag-hai. Mass orcs to support the Olag-Hai. Keep the catapults in the rear and bombard the enemy. Fix their minimum firing range to about 50-75 in front of the battle-line. Enemies approaching the line will be broken up by the artillary fire before contact, at which point they will be easy to mop up and destroy in detail. The dragon's breath furthers this, as they can easily keep large stretches of territory free. Keep Sauron, the Nine, and the Balrog back and use as directed against any particularly powerful beings that break through the dragonfire. Toss in weather-working to blow the smoke back over the enemy lines, some nice lightening bolts can also be tossed into the enemy position
Don't forget swarm of giant flies, bats, Cerbian, and crows. Oh and his hoards of wolves, wargs, spirt wargs (wargs who need magic to kill and their bodies vanish when they die) and the watcher in the water. And sauron's shape shifting, vampires and werewoves (just to clarify, no getting bitten by a vampire or werewolf does turn you into one)
Oh and Uruk-hai, sub orc breeds, other evil men (he has 8 evil human nations i belive) and Saurman's foces

Why are they invulnerable to normal weapons? Just by looking at the wiki entry, it seems like they are just slightly better trolls, with some body armour. Who would probably be a good one on one match for abominations.
i think in the apendix it says that only magical weapons could hurt them

Although I have a question... how come Sauron didn't just smash the army of the last alliance with Dragons and Balrogs? Why even bother spawning orcs, or personally fighting?
because he wasn't given time to rally his forces, he had just been out of mordor for a dozen years, and had just got half of the world dropped on him, he comes back, finds that his enemies had recovered and in fact had thrived without him and were attacking his country.
In the third age, he had more time to orgnize (that is why he waited 2,000 years before coming back to mordor, he wanted to destroy all of his enemies from within)

I'm not convinced that Sauron could coerce Balrogs and Dragons to fight for him if he's not acting as the direct representative of Morgoth.
in the last thread i found proof
The orcs of moria under the Balrogs direction sent all of Moria's treasure to mordor as tribute, and the Balrog directed attacks against sauron's enemies
The dragons helped sauron in retaking the seven dwarven rings, and Smaug was under his command in taking the lonely mountain (granted, the dragons want look, but we all know warcraft enemies have that)

1) They were there, the books just don't say. Clearly this is not the case for the Balrog, his location is always known. Personally I consider this to be very unlikely.
he was sleeping underground. He didn't come out until mid way through the third age

Faced with a horde of undead, including dragons, they have every reason to fight and are smart enough to know that Sauron offers them their best bet at victory and survival
and loot. They know they can trust him, every other time they worked for him, he paided up.

Given the Forsaken, why wouldn't he enchant his Runeblades to be anti-Undead? Or at least have the capability to do so?
it would make sense, but i don't know if he can? Other than ashbringer, does he have any?

LK's Undead are completely immune to the effects of a Fear Aura. If it were a Turn Undead aura, or something similar, that might be different, but a standard Fear aura's not even going to get the Acolytes (Because literally the entire army is undead :P). I will not debate, at this time, capability to put up a Turn Undead Aura, merely that the Fear Aura is going to be completely useless.
1. The cult of the damned is mortal
2. The black breath will still effect alcoyes and death knights

Also your tactics are predicated on Sauron's troops being completely better, which hasn't really been shown. Including your superior artillery point; Can you back that up, please? Until you can back up superiority on a pound for pound basis, any set of tactics predicated on this is completely flawed.
reducing the greatest fortress of the age to ruble?

I thought we had already uninvolved the unaligned people. Therefore, the dragons are at 0 risk from this, period... So if they're more concerned about their survival then they are Sauron (Which, given the Last Alliance's apparent lack of Dragons... they are) why are they fighting?
they have worked for him in the past as troops in the third age,

Oh and warty goblin, can you reley my arguement about Rutte ignoring me to her please, because it just isn't a good idea from a stratigic view point. Say i'm sorry if it helps (though i was called illiterate and other things)
from,
EE

warty goblin
2007-12-03, 08:46 PM
Rutee: Evil Elitist says that he's sorry, will you please respond to his posts again?

And EE, thanks for that evidence on the dragons, I must have missed it. We seem to have dug up the Balrog (hehehe) at about the same time though. But I was still right, the Balrog's location is, from the reader's perspective, known throughout LOTR. Given this evidence on dragons, I am going to conclude that they do in fact fight for Sauron.

Oh, and by the way, I just came up with a really really really terrible way in which Sauron wins. This is of course complete cheese and I acknowledge this at the outset, but it is technically canon...

Beren and Luthien "pass through every peril" after they escape from Sauron. Now call me crazy, but I think that the Lich-King is a peril. Every denotes that they managed to defeat something of at least analagous power in this time period. But Sauron defeated Beren outright and overcame Luthein with fear. Hence Sauron is greater then Beren and Luthien. Transitivity gives us that since Beren + Luthien can beat the Lich King, Sauron can beat the Lich King. QED.

Like I said, its canon, so terribly cheesy that mice are gnawing on my screen as I type, and completely irrelevant. Just a fun excersize in what happens if we don't use common sense. I by no means advocate this as an actual argument for Sauron's victory.

For those who know these things, how backed up by fluff is gargoyles' ability to rip through air units? I'm just curious here. They can still engage only one unit at a time however, and as EE has pointed out, there are a lot of crebain and bats in Sauron's service. Even if it takes 100 of them to take out a gargoyle, that's probably a deal if it allows the dragons to get airborn and incinerate a few enemy positions. Closer to Sauron's lines of course the dragons can be protected by archers, but at a distance a strike force of a dragon supported by crebain and bats could be a powerful weapon for harrasement and intellegence gathering. Also, melting pieces of glacier and sealing exits with refrozen water, or causing them to collapse completely.

EvilElitest
2007-12-03, 09:14 PM
Rutee: Evil Elitist says that he's sorry, will you please respond to his posts again?

Can you be nice Warty Goblin and ad my reason why ignoring somebody on a vs. thread is a bad idea, just ever? Sorry for using you as a translate.


And EE, thanks for that evidence on the dragons, I must have missed it. We seem to have dug up the Balrog (hehehe) at about the same time though. But I was still right, the Balrog's location is, from the reader's perspective, known throughout LOTR. Given this evidence on dragons, I am going to conclude that they do in fact fight for Sauron.
Oh god, i make a habit of re-reading LOTRS once a years, but at this point i feel i have come close to memerizing the book. SO much text. I beg the other side, please don't ask me for page numbers, the amount of text one has to rip through is mind boggling.



Oh, and by the way, I just came up with a really really really terrible way in which Sauron wins. This is of course complete cheese and I acknowledge this at the outset, but it is technically canon...
What about my Sauron=Super dragon idea?


Beren and Luthien "pass through every peril" after they escape from Sauron. Now call me crazy, but I think that the Lich-King is a peril. Every denotes that they managed to defeat something of at least analagous power in this time period. But Sauron defeated Beren outright and overcame Luthein with fear. Hence Sauron is greater then Beren and Luthien. Transitivity gives us that since Beren + Luthien can beat the Lich King, Sauron can beat the Lich King. QED.
.............................dear god Pun Pun look sane compared to this

Like I said, its canon, so terribly cheesy that mice are gnawing on my screen as I type, and completely irrelevant. Just a fun excersize in what happens if we don't use common sense. I by no means advocate this as an actual argument for Sauron's victory.
dude, i don't even know if that works and mice are gnawing at my screen. Dear god, that is the ulitmate example of chesse, i must bow in honor

By the by, where is Rowin? The person who i called a god? Shouldn't he be here?


For those who know these things, how backed up by fluff is gargoyles' ability to rip through air units? I'm just curious here.
from the Wow Wiki

The dreaded gargoyles of Northrend are voracious flying creatures who revel in slaughter and mayhem. Brought from the frozen north by the armies of the Lich King, these strange, wiry flyers have rough, crystalline hides which protect them from all manner of attacks. In times of great peril, gargoyles can land and condense their hides into a stone-like surface. Though they are unable to attack in this state, they can take time to regenerate their wounds and replenish their energies. The voracious gargoyles of Northrend are capable of condensing their crystalline hides to make themselves nearly impervious to any forms of attacks. Though they must land and remain motionless while in this state, Stone Form does allow them to recoup their energies for battle

Formed of stone and earth, these proto-golems guard many of the Lich King's cities. They are most often used by his priests as fierce guardians of sacred places, but can occasionally be found defending cities against invasion or expanding the territory of a powerful priest. These creatures are semi-sapient, linking their intellect to the priest controlling their actions. If directed by the priest, they act with the intelligence of that priest. If acting alone, their actions will be more simplistic and straightforward.
picture of one (http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Stonespine.jpg)
He has a few varieties, however sadly he can replace them.
Normal
dire gargoyle (bigger versions)
http://www.wowwiki.com/Dire_Gargoyle
rock wing (can cast fear)
http://www.wowwiki.com/Rockwing_Gargoyle
Putrid (doesn't say they have any special abilities)
http://www.wowwiki.com/Putrid_Gargoyle
Plauged (elites, not they do not have the Plauge, the name is a misdemeanor)
http://www.wowwiki.com/Plagued_Gargoyle
stoneskin (shoots acid and higher defense)
http://www.wowwiki.com/Stoneskin_Gargoyle
note, all of the verities above don't fly very well in fact, they can't fly very high at all (about ten feet tops) the normal ones from Warcraft 3 can fly very well, but these ones don't (as any WOW player can tell you)
there are three unlinked gargoyles that i don't know anything about
Four armed (ok that is pretty obvious)
Green (???)
Margoyle (???)
So yeah, most of his gargoyles can't fly very well after all, only his weakest, and they need somebody directing them.



They can still engage only one unit at a time however, and as EE has pointed out, there are a lot of crebain and bats in Sauron's service. Even if it takes 100 of them to take out a gargoyle, that's probably a deal if it allows the dragons to get airborn and incinerate a few enemy positions.
Worth pointing out, dispite being Gargoyles, normal attacks can hurt them. Sauron has lots of tiny air units and many to spare (every crow in the world seems to serve him)

Hey does anybody know if Death knight and those undead necromancer's rot? Anybody?
And are they free willed?
from,
EE

EvilElitest
2007-12-03, 10:27 PM
Much as Arthas had before them, these renegade paladins succumbed to bitter hatred over the course of their grueling quest. When they finally reached Ner'zhul's icy fortress in Northrend they had become dark and brooding. The Lich King offered them untold power in exchange for their services and loyalty. The weary, vengeful warriors accepted his dark pact, and although they retained their humanity, their twisted souls were bound to his evil will for all time. Bestowed with black runeblades and shadowy undead steeds, death knights serve as the Scourge's mightiest generals.
[edit] Playable Hero Class

Main article: Death Knight (hero class)

In Wrath of the Lich King, Death Knights will be the first available Hero Class.
[edit] Tabletop

In the Warcraft RPG, the death knight is a prestige class (an advanced class with certain requirements for entry). It is comparable to the blackguard, a prestige class in Dungeons & Dragons. The would-be death knight must vow to serve the Scourge and must receive a vampiric runeblade from the Lich King

it seems that death knights are in fact humans who serve teh Scourge with undead and necromantic abilities.

So this means

1. The are effected by fear
2. They can be effected by Morgul blades (turning into lesser wraiths)
3. They can be effected by the Black Breath (big bad)
4. They can be corrupted by Sauron without sauron using magic to weaken the LK's control
5. They can be effected by mount doom's volcanic gasses.
Same is true for the members of teh cult of the damned

sweet
from
EE

Talkkno
2007-12-03, 10:28 PM
Wouldn't the Lich King having the ablity can summon defense structures on the spot be a significant advantage?

EvilElitest
2007-12-03, 10:31 PM
Wouldn't the Lich King having the ablity can summon defense structures on the spot be a significant advantage?

1. Sauron can do that to
2. When can he do that? If you are refering to Warcraft III, that is simple his guys building it, for the sake of simplicity
from,
EE

WalkingTarget
2007-12-03, 11:08 PM
He has limits, he can't turn into anything. The creature must be
1. A living being, he couldn't turn into inanimate creatures
2. Must exist. He could only turn into creatures that he had seen (were wolves, vampires, snakes ect). Dragons weren't around yet, and so Sauron didn't turn into one. So he can't turn into something he is just imagining.
3. He can turn into a bigger version of something else. Remember, he turned into a werewolf bigger than the biggest living werewolf. Remember, at he time of this fight he has in fact seen dragons, a dragon the size of a mountain range, and he can turn into a bigger version of that. He lost his power to shape shift before he had any reason to shape shift in combat, so we don't know he can't do it.
So he could turn into a super sized dragon, (about hte size of a small mountain range) rage hell, eventually get killed, instently reform and resome his old tatics

Out of curiosity, where does anything specify limits? We have examples of what shapes he's taken, but that doesn't mean he can't turn into other stuff. Maybe the concept of dragons hadn't occurred to him (they were one of his boss's biggest creative efforts after all). As for mountain range sized dragons, we know that Ancalagon crushed the fortress of Thangorodrim when he fell onto/crashed into it. That is a complex of three mountains. While that's probably still indicative of a big dragon, I don't know if we can say that his size was the only contributing factor (hottest dragon flame, maybe there was a sizable explosion too).


hey fun fact, remember the mouth of sauron? He and his body guards rode skelatoal fire breathing horses. Something to bear in mind.

From TRotK:

"At its head there rode a tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse, if horse it was; for it was huge and hideous, and its face was a frightful mask, more like a skull than a living head, and in the sockets of its eyes and in its nostrils there burned a flame."

Only TMoS's horse is described and it was picked out in particular, so it's likely that it was distinctive, not general issue for his gang. This is the only description you get, so read the fanciful description how you will for how skeletal/fiery the steed was.


i think in the apendix it says that only magical weapons could hurt them

From Appendix F, part 1:

"But at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech... Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them."

Nothing about magical weapons, but Pippen's Barrow Blade was able to slay one. Other than that, they're essentially made of very durable stone (that's dolomite, baby).


because he wasn't given time to rally his forces, he had just been out of mordor for a dozen years, and had just got half of the world dropped on him, he comes back, finds that his enemies had recovered and in fact had thrived without him and were attacking his country.
In the third age, he had more time to orgnize (that is why he waited 2,000 years before coming back to mordor, he wanted to destroy all of his enemies from within)

From Appendix B, The Second Age:

3319 Downfall of Numenor.
3320 Foundations of the Realms in Exile. Sauron returns to Mordor.
3429 Sauron attacks Gondor.
3430 The Last Alliance is formed.
3434 Siege of Barad-dur begins.
3441 Sauron overthrown.

Sauron had 109 years to prepare before he started the war. The same amount of time that his opponents had to get their kingdoms off the ground. It's not lack of time to organize, it's either Authorial oversight if he meant for Sauron's forces to be at peak efficiency or he purposefully left the Balrog and Dragons out of it.


1. Sauron can do that to
2. When can he do that? If you are refering to Warcraft III, that is simple his guys building it, for the sake of simplicity


1. Huh? Summoning defensive structures from nowhere isn't an established ability for Sauron.
2. Having his many many minions build them is an option (which I agree makes sense for how the LK's guys do it too).

EvilElitest
2007-12-03, 11:25 PM
Out of curiosity, where does anything specify limits? We have examples of what shapes he's taken, but that doesn't mean he can't turn into other stuff. Maybe the concept of dragons hadn't occurred to him (they were one of his boss's biggest creative efforts after all). As for mountain range sized dragons, we know that Ancalagon crushed the fortress of Thangorodrim when he fell onto/crashed into it. That is a complex of three mountains. While that's probably still indicative of a big dragon, I don't know if we can say that his size was the only contributing factor (hottest dragon flame, maybe there was a sizable explosion too).

I don't think Dragons were around yet, Morgoth hadn't made them i think (not sure though)
When faced with a great wolf hound he turns into a super Werewolf, but that might be because of the prophecy. However, he seems only able to turn into already existing creatures, such as a giant snake, a vampire, a bat, and some other monsters ect. and not inanimate objects or a balrog.



From TRotK:

"At its head there rode a tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse, if horse it was; for it was huge and hideous, and its face was a frightful mask, more like a skull than a living head, and in the sockets of its eyes and in its nostrils there burned a flame."

Only TMoS's horse is described and it was picked out in particular, so it's likely that it was distinctive, not general issue for his gang. This is the only description you get, so read the fanciful description how you will for how skeletal/fiery the steed was.
Out of its nostrils were flames and it has flame in its eyes. I'll leave that as an interpretations of undead fire breathing horse. Not great i admit, but kinda niffty
But only one? Really? Hmmmmmm,



From Appendix F, part 1:

"But at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech... Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them."

Nothing about magical weapons, but Pippen's Barrow Blade was able to slay one. Other than that, they're essentially made of very durable stone (that's dolomite, baby).
Accually, the other soilder's weapons couldn't piece their skin, and only the magical one could (I think he names it troll bane at some point) and while i admit i don't have the book on me i'm looking at the Tolkien beastanary right now and it says magical weapons only (written by Tolkien fanatics ect).


From Appendix B, The Second Age:


3319 Downfall of Numenor.
3320 Foundations of the Realms in Exile. Sauron returns to Mordor.
3429 Sauron attacks Gondor.
3430 The Last Alliance is formed.
3434 Siege of Barad-dur begins.
3441 Sauron overthrown.

Sauron had 109 years to prepare before he started the war. The same amount of time that his opponents had to get their kingdoms off the ground. It's not lack of time to organize, it's either Authorial oversight if he meant for Sauron's forces to be at peak efficiency or he purposefully left the Balrog and Dragons out of it.
1. Keep reading, it says that in the time he was gone Gil-ad's strength had increased and was greater than before
2. Sauron was gone for a while, and he had regroup his forces (who has been lossing their war with the elves)
3. The balrog wasn't around yet
4. we don't know about dragons, but we do know they lived up north and so weren't really involved in the war
5. He also had to contend with the Dunidain, who he counted on not being there



1. Huh? Summoning defensive structures from nowhere isn't an established ability for Sauron.
2. Having his many many minions build them is an option (which I agree makes sense for how the LK's guys do it too).
1. When he returns to Mordor, The Black gate, Bara-dur both instantly reform.
2. But over what time period (we have to assume a realistic amount of time, because it isn't magical) isn't any different from teh time it takes for Sauron to build things (except we know he uses magic in his building)
from,
EE

Adumbration
2007-12-04, 01:43 AM
I'm going to continue on my list of undead creatures and abilities:

The Crypt Lords. Nerubian spiderlords, turned undead and enslaved under Lich King's will. Abilities include Impale (spikes shoot out of ground in a straight line, dealing massive damage. Dragon killer, anyone?), Spiked armor (what it says), Carrion beetles (gigantic beetles out of corpses) and the last but not the least: Locust Swarm (summons a great number of flesh-eating locust, a living meatgrinder. Replenishes crypt lord's health when they return. A troll killer, I think: eat their brains out).

The liches. These abominations were casters of great power while alive, and are now raised to serve the Lich King. Abilities include Frost Nova (deals frost damage on an area), Frost Armor (creates an armor of ice around a target - should negate Sauron's fiery presence, at least for a while), an ability whose name I don't recall but that turns friendly undead unit into mana for the lich, and finally, Death and Decay. In WC3 dealed 4% of the enemy's hp per second over 30 seconds. A few liches on frost wyrms can probably take out siege engines - arrows have precious little effect on either.

The Gargoyles. Flying units, great anti-air. There's just one thing bugging me here. You dispute the fact that they are quite immune to mere crows and critter, even though it clearly says in the description that "rough, crystalline hides which protect them from all manner of attacks." At the same time, you claim immunity to normal weapons for certain kind of trolls for the sake of one caption from the book, where one warrior hits a troll from a wrong angle, chipping his sword, and a hobbit hits it from the right angle. Oh and about the crow/bat-attacks: giving that gargoyles constructions - I think - they should be strong enough to fly in a crow-cloud, with each beat of the wing pulverizing several of them.

Continuing later...

Rowanomicon
2007-12-04, 03:24 AM
I'm back baby!
Sorry guys, I've been in rehab for my cookie habit.


The Crypt Lords. Nerubian spiderlords, turned undead and enslaved under Lich King's will. Abilities include Impale (spikes shoot out of ground in a straight line, dealing massive damage. Dragon killer, anyone?), Spiked armor (what it says), Carrion beetles (gigantic beetles out of corpses) and the last but not the least: Locust Swarm (summons a great number of flesh-eating locust, a living meatgrinder. Replenishes crypt lord's health when they return. A troll killer, I think: eat their brains out).

Spikes = Dragon killers?
Since when do Dragons have a special vulnerability to spikes?
Tolkien's Dragons had scales so hard that attack a Dragon was a laughable idea. The only way to kill one was to get under the scales (hence the whole thing about the arrow that never misses and Smaug's one missing scale in The Hobbit).
Also Trolls getting harmed by bugs? What on Earth are you thinking? What are you smoking for that matter? Can you get me some?
It sounds to me like a Troll (or anything tougher) or any type of caster could take one of these things out pretty freakin' easy.


The liches. These abominations were casters of great power while alive, and are now raised to serve the Lich King. Abilities include Frost Nova (deals frost damage on an area), Frost Armor (creates an armor of ice around a target - should negate Sauron's fiery presence, at least for a while), an ability whose name I don't recall but that turns friendly undead unit into mana for the lich, and finally, Death and Decay. In WC3 dealed 4% of the enemy's hp per second over 30 seconds. A few liches on frost wyrms can probably take out siege engines - arrows have precious little effect on either.

Alright these guys are a bit more of a threat, but first off I'm going to address the using of Frost Armor on Sauron: HAHAHA!
I don't mean to be rude, but seriously this is a no-brainer.
Any frost or ice in Sauron's general vicinity would melt before it even formed and sort of shape.
Frost Nova could be useful against groups of weaker units. Realistically this is just straight damage dealing and not that scary magic wise.
Death and Decay wouldn't work on Sauron, the Balrog or the Nazgul; you can't 4% kill an immortal spirit.
Using it against individual orcs would be kind of stupid, agaisnt Ologs it would be worth it as they are very hard to damage in other ways.


The Gargoyles. Flying units, great anti-air. There's just one thing bugging me here. You dispute the fact that they are quite immune to mere crows and critter, even though it clearly says in the description that "rough, crystalline hides which protect them from all manner of attacks." At the same time, you claim immunity to normal weapons for certain kind of trolls for the sake of one caption from the book, where one warrior hits a troll from a wrong angle, chipping his sword, and a hobbit hits it from the right angle. Oh and about the crow/bat-attacks: giving that gargoyles constructions - I think - they should be strong enough to fly in a crow-cloud, with each beat of the wing pulverizing several of them.

From what I read the "protected from all manner of attacks' was while they were in stone form. Otherwise they're just plain tough. Even if they were utterly impervious to the attacks of giant crows it'd still be kinda hard to do much of anything with a murder all up in your face.

Psst, WG, got any cookies, man? I'm really hard up.

Artemician
2007-12-04, 04:19 AM
<snip, etc etc>

In Warcraft III, there have been necessary simplifications in order to achieve in-game balance (and also manageability).

A Crypt Lord, or a LIch, or a Death Knight is vastly more complex in "real life" than inside the simplified boundaries of Warcraft III. A Crypt Lord is far, far powerful and stronger than what the game statistics reflect.

Basically, it's the difference between Legolas as reflected in BFME and Legolas as he is depicted in the books.

Rowanomicon
2007-12-04, 04:34 AM
1) I was working off of what was given to me.

2) Legolas originally appeared in books. Games and movie depictions are his secondary appearances.
Those creatures and things originally appeared in the games.

I definitely understand the difference between simplified game mechanics and 'real-life,' but this is media discussion and the original media that those things appeared in statted them out. This makes it very easy to compare them in a battle setting as we are doing right now.

EvilElitest
2007-12-04, 09:54 AM
The Gargoyles. Flying units, great anti-air. There's just one thing bugging me here. You dispute the fact that they are quite immune to mere crows and critter, even though it clearly says in the description that "rough, crystalline hides which protect them from all manner of attacks." At the same time, you claim immunity to normal weapons for certain kind of trolls for the sake of one caption from the book, where one warrior hits a troll from a wrong angle, chipping his sword, and a hobbit hits it from the right angle. Oh and about the crow/bat-attacks: giving that gargoyles constructions - I think - they should be strong enough to fly in a crow-cloud, with each beat of the wing pulverizing several of them.
I've fought them in wow, and guess what? Anything can hurt them. They are resistant, but anything literally anything can hurt them.

Oh and Lichs, sauron's anti magic plus fire is pretty sweet
from,
EE

warty goblin
2007-12-04, 10:03 AM
Yayy! Rowan's back! Have some cookies!

Once again I think the Warcraft people are forgetting one of Sauron's best powers-magic negation. Some of the the most powerful unitsmight be able to get a spell off, but its doubtful. The only record I have of magic being used successfully around Sauron is Luthein destroying Tol en Gaurhoth, but that was after Sauron had surrendered to Haun, it might even be after he fled, I can't remember atm. Besides the most obvious effect of no more spells around Sauron, this has at least one other consequence of note.

The gargoyles are essentially semi-intellegent golems yes? Beings created, and maintained, though magic, or essentially a walking artifact. Guess what happens to artifacts around Sauron? They stop working, see Vial of Galadriel. Now the Vial didn't break, but it did completely shut down. The gargoyles, being of a similar nature, will simply stop. This could be something of a problem in midair to say the least...

So the gargoyles are dropping like rocks (hurhurhur I made a funny), enemy spellcasters are wondering why they didn't go to fighter school, and the Olag-Hai are ripping ghouls and abominations apart left and right. Things look, at least to me, distintly poorly for the Lich-King right about now.

Artemician
2007-12-04, 10:09 AM
Hmm.. on the Anti-Magic issue: Do we really have any evidence of it working on things other than that one time with Galedriel's vial? That's the only time I recall that magic was attempted in Sauron's vicinity in LOTR, and I don't have a copy of Silmarillion with me ATM (I do have the Sellamillion, but that's an over-the-top parody, so..).

I have a hunch.

EvilElitest
2007-12-04, 10:18 AM
I'm back baby!
Sorry guys, I've been in rehab for my cookie habit.

Horray, the prophet has returned




Spikes = Dragon killers?
Since when do Dragons have a special vulnerability to spikes?
Tolkien's Dragons had scales so hard that attack a Dragon was a laughable idea. The only way to kill one was to get under the scales (hence the whole thing about the arrow that never misses and Smaug's one missing scale in The Hobbit).

and guys, in the simerelaion, the father of dragons fights the dwarves and only the dwarven blade pierces his underscales. At the cost of the dwarf's life



Alright these guys are a bit more of a threat, but first off I'm going to address the using of Frost Armor on Sauron: HAHAHA!
I don't mean to be rude, but seriously this is a no-brainer.
Any frost or ice in Sauron's general vicinity would melt before it even formed and sort of shape.
Frost Nova could be useful against groups of weaker units. Realistically this is just straight damage dealing and not that scary magic wise.
Death and Decay wouldn't work on Sauron, the Balrog or the Nazgul; you can't 4% kill an immortal spirit.
Using it against individual orcs would be kind of stupid, agaisnt Ologs it would be worth it as they are very hard to damage in other ways.
Sauron's anti magic


From what I read the "protected from all manner of attacks' was while they were in stone form. Otherwise they're just plain tough. Even if they were utterly impervious to the attacks of giant crows it'd still be kinda hard to do much of anything with a murder all up in your face.
in Wow, they have damage resistance but anything can hurt them, and they can only attack on target (bat) at a time
Psst, WG, got any cookies, man? I'm really hard up.[/QUOTE]
I have them now, WG gave me the cookies when i made this statment

just to play off of this'
King of the high men-i shall go and demand Sauron surrenders
elrond-there is no were sauron would surrender
Sauron-i surrender
Elrond-oh, i totally didn't see that coming, dude i must be a trap
King- Oh come on, he is the king of evil and he is surrendering? He must of finally figured out that he is uselss to the power of love and puppies
Elrond- well, just be careful
King-oh he is the king of all evil, there is not way i'll trust him
Elrond- alright, well i'll come up and check on you in three years
King-yes mother
Elrond- just don't let him talk his way out of prison
King- Oh yeah, like i'd allow the embodyment of evil out of prison
(three years later)
Elrond- hey dude, how is it hanging
King- hey elrond, you are not ghetto, never talk that way again. Anyways things are cool
Elrond- everything's cool?
King- pretty much
Elrond- nothing out of the ordinary in the least
King- not realy, everything is totally ok
Elrond- ok, i just came up to check up on sauron to make sure that he was still in prison
king- Sauron? Oh him, he is gone
Elrdon- he escaped
King- hell no, i made him my cheif adviser
Elrond-WTF?
King-well we had a public trial, and he was put onto the stand. Within five min he had concived us that he shouldn't be in prison. In ten he conviced us that he was totally innocent and he was the perfect person to trust running the country. In half an hour he was my chief advister, we were all worshiping Morgoth, and he had become my high priest and conviced me taht defying the gods and sacerficing humans was A-ok.
Elrond- Are you high or just stupid
King-I assure, i am not high
Sauron- No, i'm just that good
Elrond- you won't get away with this
Sauron- right, well let me allow one of my servents to respond, bob
Bob- I am the middle finger of sauron
Elrond-???
Sauron-give him the message
Bob- #$%% you B#%ch. I'm running this town now
Elrond- dear god, i have lost the will life
Sauron- now go home and cry to all you little elvish friends loser. Oh and you look awful in purple
Elrond- I hope your defeated by a deformed midgit
Sauron-right, like that would ever happen
(a few years later)
Sauron-well the king is dead, i'm in charge, the gods are in despair, and i have the greatest humans on earth working for me, and i have just made the song Jingle bells illegal, so all is good
(valar drop a contient on him)
Sauron- wow, didn't see that coming
WG's reponse

Excellent! Now I'll have to get a sig and avatar to proclaim my new status across the boards!
And that, by the way, is one of the funniest things I've ever read. I do believe you just won all of ASDAL's cookies for that
However, there were so many cookies, that even after gaining 186 pounds, i still have plenty to spar
/cookie dark prophet of sauron

In Warcraft III, there have been necessary simplifications in order to achieve in-game balance (and also manageability).

A Crypt Lord, or a LIch, or a Death Knight is vastly more complex in "real life" than inside the simplified boundaries of Warcraft III. A Crypt Lord is far, far powerful and stronger than what the game statistics reflect
that may be true, but please, provide me with their "real" satistics, because we are working off their game statics's currently
as Rowen said, orginiral media apperences, or cannincal ones following that (the LOTRS video games aren't cannon i belive, if they aren't then Sauron gets a lot more guys)
Oh and general list of Sauron's forces
Orcs of the north
Orcs/goblins of moria
Orc/goblns/hobgoblins of the grey mountains
Orcs of Mt. Gundibad
Orcs of Gladden fields
Orcs of the east
Orcs of Mordor
Orcs of Dul-Guldor
Orcs of Mirkwood
Uruk-hai of mordor
Black Uruks of mordor
Black Orcs
Uruk-hai of Moria
Uruk-Hai of Isengard
Orcs of Isengard
Men of Isengard
Goblin men of isengard
Half orcs of isengard
men orcs of isengard
Uruk men of isengard
The Dunlanders
Saurman
Wormtoung
Mecernaries of Saurman
Goblin men of mordor
Half orcs of mordor
Troll men of mordor
half trolls of mordor
Man orcs of mordor
Cave trolls
Hill trolls
Mountain trolls (huge, can travel in sunlight)
Snow trolls
Great trolls
Stone trolls (orginized, intelligent)
Olag-hai
Evil trees
Giant spiders of mirkwood
Giant spirder of Mordor
Shelob
Smaug the golden
Dragons of the north (six types)
1. Worm dragon (No legs, maybe two front arms, not wings) cold drake
2.Fire worm dragon (same as above, but breaths fire)
3. Wingless cold drake (tail, legs, armor, no wings
4. Wingless fire drake (same as above but is immune to and breath's fire)
5. Winged cold drakes (massive winged dragons)
6. Winged fire drakes (same as above but breaths fire
Werewolves
Vampires
Wargs
Warg riders
Spirt Wargs
Wolves
Wolf riders
Crows
Cerbian
bats
Giant bats
Giant flies of mordor
Brambles of mordor (don't know if they are intellegent or not)
The Barrow wights
Men of mordor
Men of Morgul
Black Nudimoraians
Corsiars of Umber
Morgul fleet
Blagloth
Wain riders
Easterlings
Haradrim
Men of far harad
Southrons (i think they are teh same as the Haradrim)
Swary men (???)
Evil mercanaries
Mumikul
Evil Dwarves
Phantoms of the dead marches
Evil Spirits
Orcs of mordor
Orcs of the north
Men of Rhun
Varaigs
Bandits of the north
General spies
Lesser wraith
Silent watchers
Evil Spirts
The balrog
The watcher in the water
Gollum (debatable)
The watchers of Cirith Ungul (he might have more)
Evil Horses
Fell beasts
Snaga orcs
Tracker orcs
great orcs
The Mouth of Sauron
Evil skelition horse
The nazgul
Sauron himself
Kun-fu gnome ninjas
Orcs of the Black gate
the hill men
The men of Rhagar (traitor country of Anor)

Hmm.. on the Anti-Magic issue: Do we really have any evidence of it working on things other than that one time with Galedriel's vial? That's the only time I recall that magic was attempted in Sauron's vicinity in LOTR, and I don't have a copy of Silmarillion with me ATM (I do have the Sellamillion, but that's an over-the-top parody, so..).

I have a hunch.
never heard of the Sellemillon, but here is what i do know
Gandalf couldn't use magic at the black gate, or at Dul-Guldor
The elves could't use magic at last alliance
Luthrien's magic didn't work

Oh and warty goblin, i'm kinda of unsure if the Gargolyes are constructs or weird species. If the formor, then you tatic works
If the latter, well morgul blades and black breath still work

from,
EE

Adumbration
2007-12-04, 10:23 AM
A quick address to a point - impale shoots spikes from underground. So if the dragons are crawling on their weak-skinned bellies, they'll get impaled.

*sigh*

Magic bugs. Trolls immune to normal weapons. 1+1=2. Do I have to elaborate? Do you want me to write it in simpler sentences?

Also - I'm only listing what abilities they had in WC3, which are limited, since the skills were limited to 4/hero.

EvilElitest
2007-12-04, 10:25 AM
A quick address to a point - impale shoots spikes from underground. So if the dragons are crawling on their weak-skinned bellies, they'll get impaled.

*sigh*

Magic bugs. Trolls immune to normal weapons. 1+1=2. Do I have to elaborate? Do you want me to write it in simpler sentences?

Also - I'm only listing what abilities they had in WC3, which are limited, since the skills were limited to 4/hero.

I can see the spikes working, they aren't an insta kill certainly, but the can work
from,
EE

warty goblin
2007-12-04, 10:34 AM
Hmm.. on the Anti-Magic issue: Do we really have any evidence of it working on things other than that one time with Galedriel's vial? That's the only time I recall that magic was attempted in Sauron's vicinity in LOTR, and I don't have a copy of Silmarillion with me ATM (I do have the Sellamillion, but that's an over-the-top parody, so..).

I have a hunch.

Here's all of the instances of magic being used around Sauron that I know of:
In "Of Beren and Luthien (Silmarillion)"
Sauron handily wins a constest of magic with Finrod Felagund. He then strips both Felagund and Beren of their magical disguises.
This is the only instance of magic being used succesfully around Sauron that I know of: When Sauron is moving to attack Luthien, before she is completely overcome with fear, she casts a sleep spell that causes Sauron to stagger a bit. Bear in mind that this is a spell cast by Luthien, who not much later sends Morgoth to sleep as well. The same spell here however does nothing more than make Sauron rock back on his heels a bit. Tol en Gaorhoth is destroyed after Sauron flees the isle, and so does not count as magic cast around Sauron.

On Numenor, before right before it is sunk, Sauron stands on the roof of the great temple to Melkor and deflects divine lightening bolts. His body is only destroyed when the gods sink the entire island under his feet, which caused tidal waves to swamp about half of Middle Earth.

Then there's the afformentioned bit with the vial.

Conclusion: The only direct back and forth battle of spells in, as far as I know, the entirety of Middle Earth between Sauron and somebody else is won very simply by Sauron. There is only one instance where hostile magic has any effect, and that was a spell cast by probably the most powerful enchantress ever to live, who was casting in a desperate fear for both her life and the life of her beloved. This spell did nothing more than stagger Sauron a bit, probably because he was completely unprepared for such a brazen frontal assualt. The bit where he stops divine lightening however is particularly telling as well, since that's pretty hardcore. Shutting down magical artifacts may simply be a consequence of his massive will in areas where it is very strong and a purely passive thing.

Artemician
2007-12-04, 10:35 AM
A quick address to a point - impale shoots spikes from underground. So if the dragons are crawling on their weak-skinned bellies, they'll get impaled.

*sigh*

Magic bugs. Trolls immune to normal weapons. 1+1=2. Do I have to elaborate? Do you want me to write it in simpler sentences?

Also - I'm only listing what abilities they had in WC3, which are limited, since the skills were limited to 4/hero.

Hahaha.. That's some really nice thinking on your part. Good job!

Don't constrain yourself to what in-game abilities heroes have, though. If you do that, you'll be ignoring huge chunks of their power.

Furion Stormrage in game and Furion Stormrage as he is presented by the story are two very different entities, just as the Dread Lords, Lichs, Crypt Lords and others are.


@Sauron and Anitmagic:

Hrm.I need more information. Can you tell me some more of this Finrod character? And of how Sauron "stripped Beren and Finrod of their magical guises"?

And which page is it stated that Gandalf coulnd't cast spells at the Black Gate again?

Adumbration
2007-12-04, 10:38 AM
Oh, and reading backwards more thoroughly:

On Frost Armor - granted, anti-magic will defuse it, but plain fire doesn't, I think. And even against Sauron's fiery presence, it should grant some protection against the flames before melting. (Hit and run tactics?)

And I'm not sure if I mentioned it, but Death and Decay is an area of effect spell, and I meant that the liches could cast it from top of wyrms on the siege engines and their immediate vicinity.

WalkingTarget
2007-12-04, 10:43 AM
I don't think Dragons were around yet, Morgoth hadn't made them i think (not sure though)
When faced with a great wolf hound he turns into a super Werewolf, but that might be because of the prophecy. However, he seems only able to turn into already existing creatures, such as a giant snake, a vampire, a bat, and some other monsters ect. and not inanimate objects or a balrog.

The first dragon, Glaurung, was released in year 260 of the First Age (was driven back as he was young, but he was still around at this point). Beren was born in 432. As most of Sauron's shape-changing stuff happened during the story of Beren and Luthien, so he could have known about dragons at that time. Nobody can say why he didn't, but at this point there weren't any limitations on what body he could assume (the Valar and Maiar could assume any body they pleased, he didn't have to deal with restrictions until he'd fallen with Numenor, which doesn't address why he didn't try more exotic forms, but it's a story/myth and the way it is written works in that context). Balrogs are just Maiar or lesser power than Sauron. He could probably look like they did if he so chose (but that would mean he wasn't unique).


Out of its nostrils were flames and it has flame in its eyes. I'll leave that as an interpretations of undead fire breathing horse. Not great i admit, but kinda niffty
But only one? Really? Hmmmmmm,

Yeah, only one is mentioned. It's also mentioned that there was a group of people with him when he came through the gate, but that's all we hear about them - that he had a retinue.


Accually, the other soilder's weapons couldn't piece their skin, and only the magical one could (I think he names it troll bane at some point) and while i admit i don't have the book on me i'm looking at the Tolkien beastanary right now and it says magical weapons only (written by Tolkien fanatics ect).

Yeah, other soldier's had problems as swords aren't designed for cutting stone. Nothing is said about immunity from pickaxes or sledgehammers. He called it troll bane because he killed a troll with it, not because it's an anti-troll weapon specifically. Magic swords are handy, they let you cut all sorts of unusual things. Bestiaries and other Middle-earth supplements not written by Tolkien are suspect at best and definitely non-canon (stick to primary sources: I try to only use the Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and the Silmarillion, I'll use The Children of Hurin if I need to, but even the Unfinished Tales or the History of Middle-Earth are fragmentary and contradictory sometimes, so I even try to avoid them when possible).



1. Keep reading, it says that in the time he was gone Gil-ad's strength had increased and was greater than before
2. Sauron was gone for a while, and he had regroup his forces (who has been lossing their war with the elves)
3. The balrog wasn't around yet
4. we don't know about dragons, but we do know they lived up north and so weren't really involved in the war
5. He also had to contend with the Dunidain, who he counted on not being there

Even if the dragons were uninvolved with the War of the Elves and Sauron (which ended in year 1700, 1600 years before Numenor fell), he still had over 100 years to find/recall them to use in the new war that he started with the remaining Numenorians (who are the Dunedain, it's not like they were a surprise faction that just showed up). There isn't any other fighting mentioned at that time, they had lost the war with the elves a long time ago. Sure Gil-galad's kingdom had thrived, but it's far away to west of where the Shire eventually is and doesn't get involved in the post-Numenor fighting until the Last Alliance is formed. Since Sauron picked the time and place for the war to start, it could be guessed that he'd gathered all of the troops he cared to have.



1. When he returns to Mordor, The Black gate, Bara-dur both instantly reform.
2. But over what time period (we have to assume a realistic amount of time, because it isn't magical) isn't any different from teh time it takes for Sauron to build things (except we know he uses magic in his building)
from,
EE

It took 600 years for Barad-dur to be built the first time. It is never stated that it is rebuilt instantly. Decades seem more likely (I grant that there is no proof either way, but given the tone of Tolkien in general, I'd say that Insta-Tower(TM) is unlikely at best). The Black Gate was never destroyed in the first place. The armies of the Last Alliance used them after they won and Sauron took them back eventually, but it was manned pretty much continuously by one side or the other throughout the Third Age. I don't think it likely that either side can magic up a guard tower wherever they like, though.


Spikes = Dragon killers?
Since when do Dragons have a special vulnerability to spikes?
Tolkien's Dragons had scales so hard that attack a Dragon was a laughable idea. The only way to kill one was to get under the scales (hence the whole thing about the arrow that never misses and Smaug's one missing scale in The Hobbit).

Giant spikes erupting from the ground would be problematic for Tolkien-style dragons if they're on the ground. Smaug hadn't lost a scale, he'd had to encrust his underside with gems as dragon undersides aren't armored well. The bare patch was where some of the gems had fallen off, and an ordinary arrow was enough to pierce his natural armor otherwise. They also aren't lumbering brutes, though. If there's a line of spikes approaching, they're probably quick enough to dodge it.

Adumbration
2007-12-04, 10:47 AM
Giant spikes erupting from the ground would be problematic for Tolkien-style dragons if they're on the ground. Smaug hadn't lost a scale, he'd had to encrust his underside with gems as dragon undersides aren't armored well. The bare patch was where some of the gems had fallen off, and an ordinary arrow was enough to pierce his natural armor otherwise. They also aren't lumbering brutes, though. If there's a line of spikes approaching, they're probably quick enough to dodge it.


True, but at least in-game, the spikes were pretty much instantaneous, shooting up, impaling, falling down and disappearing. A quick stab, if you like.

warty goblin
2007-12-04, 10:52 AM
Hahaha.. That's some really nice thinking on your part. Good job!

Don't constrain yourself to what in-game abilities heroes have, though. If you do that, you'll be ignoring huge chunks of their power.

Furion Stormrage in game and Furion Stormrage as he is presented by the story are two very different entities, just as the Dread Lords, Lichs, Crypt Lords and others are.

That is a very good bit of thinking indeed.

Now on to another thing: I am getting somewhat tired of hearing that "X can do Y, Q, and Z, but also has a lot of other powers" and nothing is given as to what these other powers are. I realize that given the fiction and the nature of in-game balance this is almost certainly the case, but as a position in an argument, unless there's some actual evidence beyond "They are very powerful" or similar, its pretty much worthless.

I don't mean to offend anybody with this, its merely an observation, and I do understand where you are coming from. The Sauron side has to work with Tolkien, king of "X is very powerful, take my word for it", which, as I said above, makes for pretty poor arguments. But the fact is that we have managed to come up with a concrete list of abilities, and, after dredging though about 2,000 pages of text, have provided lists, summeries, and evidence supporting these as well. There are of course plenty of cases in which your side has provided ample evidence for your claims, and when you haven't it has been the exception rather than the rule, nor do I doubt your dedication to finding evidence where its available. I just wish that people of both sides, the Sauron side has been known to do this as well, I don't exempt myself, would stop making baseless arguments.

Thank you, and I hope I didn't offend anybody. If I did I am sincerely sorry.

Artemician
2007-12-04, 10:59 AM
@WartyGoblin:

Nah.. don't worry. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm certainly not offended. If you spot us making arguments which are unsupported by evidence, feel free to point them out.

For the Crypt Lord thing, I didn't bring up any evidence because you're right, there wasn't any for that case. But I was merely reminding people that taking *only* the in-game representation of WCIII heroes is not doing justice to their true power. I wasn't making any concrete claims as to Ner'zhul's fight versus Sauron. It's not even an argument :P.

Now, if you want some evidence backing up the fact that in-game representations of WCIII heroes don't do them justice, I can certainly get some. A lot, in fact. Do you wish for me to do so?

WalkingTarget
2007-12-04, 11:02 AM
True, but at least in-game, the spikes were pretty much instantaneous, shooting up, impaling, falling down and disappearing. A quick stab, if you like.

If you say so, I haven't played that game (I imagined something similar to the Lurkers from StarCraft where the spikes came up sequentially in a line).

Adumbration
2007-12-04, 11:02 AM
I know, I know, but I have to work with what I have. I've played Warcraft 3 through once or twice, read LoTR two or three times, read Silmarillion once and watched the movies. I haven't played WoW - apart from a 10-day-trial - so I haven't even tried to take advantage of that material.

The other source of knowledge on WC3 are the plot-related cinematics and chapters. A good example of power that can be wielded, if powerful enough, is the cinematic where Archimonde destroys the city of Dalaran - a city of mages - by building a magical sandcastle and breaking it down. (I know how it sounds :smallbiggrin: , but search YouTube with Archimonde and shuffle through the cinematic ones: it is quite impressive)

Another example could be when Illidan used the skull of Gul'dan - the skull of an immensely powerful warlock who was slain by Sargeras - to try and break Northrend. It could be that LK might try such a spell, or something very similar.

warty goblin
2007-12-04, 11:06 AM
Oh, and reading backwards more thoroughly:

On Frost Armor - granted, anti-magic will defuse it, but plain fire doesn't, I think. And even against Sauron's fiery presence, it should grant some protection against the flames before melting. (Hit and run tactics?)

And I'm not sure if I mentioned it, but Death and Decay is an area of effect spell, and I meant that the liches could cast it from top of wyrms on the siege engines and their immediate vicinity.

Sauron stopped the divine lightening on Numenor which was being launched from Manwe's Eagles. Height clearly doesn't stop his counterspells or whatever he does. Granted he was standing on top of a massive temple, but I always figured that was more for the "damn I'm so badass" thing than tactical advantage. I always figured he would have been wailing away on an electric guitar up there as well if he could, probably while accompanying himself on the Drums of the Deep. Sauron and the Nine- the original metal band, turning it up to 13 since the First Age!
Sillyness aside, there are two possibilities here, one that he can counter magic over vast distances, supported by the Vial incident, and two that he has a shorter counterspelling range and simply has truly bitching reflexes, supported by his melee abilities.

My personal hypothesis is that he can counter magic out to a rather long distance (see: lack of magic at Black Gate) by concentrating or in places where he has spent a lot of time and power (Mt. Doom). Closer in his insane reflexes allow him to counter magic incoming before it has any effect.

Adumbration
2007-12-04, 11:30 AM
This is a tricky one... What happens when extremely high-powered magic collides with Sauron's anti-magic? Does it work only partially? Does Sauron quench it like it was nothing? Does a certain amount of magic over-ride it?

EvilElitest
2007-12-04, 12:26 PM
The first dragon, Glaurung, was released in year 260 of the First Age (was driven back as he was young, but he was still around at this point). Beren was born in 432. As most of Sauron's shape-changing stuff happened during the story of Beren and Luthien, so he could have known about dragons at that time. Nobody can say why he didn't, but at this point there weren't any limitations on what body he could assume (the Valar and Maiar could assume any body they pleased, he didn't have to deal with restrictions until he'd fallen with Numenor, which doesn't address why he didn't try more exotic forms, but it's a story/myth and the way it is written works in that context). Balrogs are just Maiar or lesser power than Sauron. He could probably look like they did if he so chose (but that would mean he wasn't unique).

So he can turn into anything that exists? Though at the time, Glaurung wasn't as impressive as he later becomes so yeah




Yeah, only one is mentioned. It's also mentioned that there was a group of people with him when he came through the gate, but that's all we hear about them - that he had a retinue.
alright, sauron has one fire breathing skelition horse



Yeah, other soldier's had problems as swords aren't designed for cutting stone. Nothing is said about immunity from pickaxes or sledgehammers.
It is skin as hard as stone, i'd think a hammer would bounce off (they are to thick for the hammer to hurt the bone)

He called it troll bane because he killed a troll with it, not because it's an anti-troll weapon specifically. Magic swords are handy, they let you cut all sorts of unusual things.
So only magical weapons or extremly sharp weapons can hurt them basiclly? The ghoul's claws and the spikes are uselss

Bestiaries and other Middle-earth supplements not written by Tolkien are suspect at best and definitely non-canon (stick to primary sources: I try to only use the Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and the Silmarillion, I'll use The Children of Hurin if I need to, but even the Unfinished Tales or the History of Middle-Earth are fragmentary and contradictory sometimes, so I even try to avoid them when possible).
I know it isn't cannon, but it uses infomation that i lack (I don't have all of the unfinished tales or history of middle earth, or any of his notes that hte writters had)




Even if the dragons were uninvolved with the War of the Elves and Sauron (which ended in year 1700, 1600 years before Numenor fell), he still had over 100 years to find/recall them to use in the new war that he started with the remaining Numenorians (who are the Dunedain, it's not like they were a surprise faction that just showed up).
1. Says in the appendix that Sauron was suprised when he found out about the Dundain's countries (I take it he was paying attention to his own forces)
2. The apendix also says that Sauron was unable to proplerly rally his forces
3. I never said they weren't involved in the War of Elves and Sauron, just hte last alliance (different wars)
4. We don't know if there were dragons there, but if there were they would have to fly all the way down to mordor and i don't think they were properly motivated at the time. They work for sauron in the third age


There isn't any other fighting mentioned at that time, they had lost the war with the elves a long time ago. Sure Gil-galad's kingdom had thrived, but it's far away to west of where the Shire eventually is and doesn't get involved in the post-Numenor fighting until the Last Alliance is formed. Since Sauron picked the time and place for the war to start, it could be guessed that he'd gathered all of the troops he cared to have.
1. The Dunidain were suppose to be destroyed in the breaking of the earth, they weren't
2. All of the elven kingdoms thrived, and all, along with men and dwarves sent forces to fight against him
3. Apendix says that he attacked before properly rallying his forces, which is why he is so much more careful in the third age





It took 600 years for Barad-dur to be built the first time. It is never stated that it is rebuilt instantly. Decades seem more likely (I grant that there is no proof either way, but given the tone of Tolkien in general, I'd say that Insta-Tower(TM) is unlikely at best).
Wait, stop there. When Sauron returned to mordor, Gandalf says that with the power of the ring, he restored his fortress, and that is why it falls apart when the ring is destroyed. Sense the dark tower is said to have returned at exactly the same time he returned to mordor, that along with gandalf's words convice me he can rebuilt it magicaly
Same with Dul-guldor


The Black Gate was never destroyed in the first place. The armies of the Last Alliance used them after they won and Sauron took them back eventually, but it was manned pretty much continuously by one side or the other throughout the Third Age. I don't think it likely that either side can magic up a guard tower wherever they like, though.
No hte alliance destroyed them, then built the towers of the teeth, that sauron eventrually took over. The gate to fall apart when the ring is destroyed

I don't mean to offend anybody with this, its merely an observation, and I do understand where you are coming from. The Sauron side has to work with Tolkien, king of "X is very powerful, take my word for it", which, as I said above, makes for pretty poor arguments. But the fact is that we have managed to come up with a concrete list of abilities, and, after dredging though about 2,000 pages of text, have provided lists, summeries, and evidence supporting these as well. There are of course plenty of cases in which your side has provided ample evidence for your claims, and when you haven't it has been the exception rather than the rule, nor do I doubt your dedication to finding evidence where its available. I just wish that people of both sides, the Sauron side has been known to do this as well, I don't exempt myself, would stop making baseless arguments
Seconded
The amount of Tolkien text i've gone through is over the top. For all know, Sauron could have ninja gnomes that i missed in hte first reading

The other source of knowledge on WC3 are the plot-related cinematics and chapters. A good example of power that can be wielded, if powerful enough, is the cinematic where Archimonde destroys the city of Dalaran - a city of mages - by building a magical sandcastle and breaking it down. (I know how it sounds , but search YouTube with Archimonde and shuffle through the cinematic ones: it is quite impressive)

Another example could be when Illidan used the skull of Gul'dan - the skull of an immensely powerful warlock who was slain by Sargeras - to try and break Northrend. It could be that LK might try such a spell, or something very similar.
your right, but hte Lich King hasn't done anything like that (other than blowing up his own planet by mistake)

Sauron stopped the divine lightening on Numenor which was being launched from Manwe's Eagles. Height clearly doesn't stop his counterspells or whatever he does. Granted he was standing on top of a massive temple, but I always figured that was more for the "damn I'm so badass" thing than tactical advantage. I always figured he would have been wailing away on an electric guitar up there as well if he could, probably while accompanying himself on the Drums of the Deep. Sauron and the Nine- the original metal band, turning it up to 13 since the First Age!
why do you think all the orcs work for him? They were elves who were corrupted by listening to his music and joined the forces of evil

About the temple thing, even in the book the humans pretty much say "Dear god, he is badass"

This is a tricky one... What happens when extremely high-powered magic collides with Sauron's anti-magic? Does it work only partially? Does Sauron quench it like it was nothing? Does a certain amount of magic over-ride it
well, the phial of gladerial went out, permentally i think (can somebody check that)
I know that Gandalf couldn't use magic at the gate, but he still had his magic later so casters get their powers back when they leave his domain
He can't use anti magic outside the boundries of Mordor to as great an extent, but remember what Saurman could do to Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli, he drained their energy and powers from a distance, something Sauron could certainly do
from,
EE

Setra
2007-12-04, 12:42 PM
You cannot Win against EE, it is nigh impossible.

He will never stop arguing and his tactic of practically spamming information makes it hard to see what is true and false, and is very annoying to argue against.

You may as well give up now and spare yourselves 10-40 pages.

That said I still want to see the Lich King win, but I don't know enough about LotR and/or Warcraft lore to argue.

However I can say this.

It takes like.. okay exactly how many people, of what level, to beat Illidan, on average? Now how much more powerful are each of these people compared to Aragorn? Ten times? Twenty times? More?

Arthas is stronger than Illidan, possibly even two or three times so now. And Frostmourne is a high level artifact, probably near the level of the Ring.

And Sauron has the power of.. let's say 200 men. Well Arthas has the power of almost ten times than. If Arthas were to fight Sauron in solo combat, he'd likely win, and he could probably use the ring to kill Sauron and become the new dark lord of middle earth, or however it goes. Now the army doesn't matter as much, because they belong to the Lich King.

WalkingTarget
2007-12-04, 12:53 PM
You cannot Win against EE, it is nigh impossible.

He will never stop arguing and his tactic of practically spamming information makes it hard to see what is true and false, and is very annoying to argue against.

You may as well give up now and spare yourselves 10-40 pages.

Yeah, it annoys me when anyone makes statements that are not supported (or even contradicted) by the source. Most of my posts in these Tolkien-related threads are putting up quotations directly from the books, summaries of things from the books that I could support with quotations (if I had the books handy), or my opinions on various points as extrapolated from the books (which I always try to label as opinions, but also try to explain my rationale). I realize that I sometimes fail in holding to these rules, but I try very hard to be accurate.

An earlier post in this thread mentioning that person 1 ignoring future posts by person 2 gave person 2 free reign to post whatever falsehoods he/she wants in order to "win" the discussion. That's the attitude that irks me.

Maybe I should start a group, People for the Accurate Reporting of Source Material...

captain_decadence
2007-12-04, 02:40 PM
I agree with you. This topic has a problem since people tend to just say "Deathknights could beat Nazgul" or whatever and really aren't laying out very much. Or someone said that some big troll could only be hurt by magic weapons but I dont' ever remember reading that (it could be somewhere, just never saw it) and when forced they said they saw it in an appendix and nothing else. Or people kept saying that Bard's Black Arrow was a magic item when it says that nowhere in the book. (the hobbit is one book I know considering I have had it read to me from front to back at least 9 times that I can think of and I have read it myself quite a few)

I like whoever posts the wiki links, on both sides. I feel they let the rest of us who don't have encyclopedic knowledge of these subjects at least have a grasp on the argument.

warty goblin
2007-12-04, 04:11 PM
On the troll skin thing, here's my reasoning:
1) The cave troll in Moria. Boromir hit it with his ordinary sword, and Boromir's no slouch with a sword, all that happened was the blade was notched. Frodo managed to cut it rather severely with Sting. Frodo is what? four feet tall and armed with a magic pocket knife and does damage, Boromir is a tall and strong human with a broadsword and doesn't.
2) The Olag-Hai at the Black Gate crash through lines of Gondor like paper, none of the Gondorian soldiers can hurt them. Pippen stabs and kills one. Again, strong skilled humans with swords doing no damage while little hobbits with daggers doing lots.

This leads me to two possible hypotheses
1) Trolls can only be hurt by hobbits
or
2) Trolls are extraordinarly resistant to normal weapons.
Ruling out the hobbit hypothesis on grounds of it making absolutely no sense, we are left with trolls being at least highly resistant to normal weapons, if not outright immune. Of course if the hobbit hypothesis is correct the ghouls are just as screwed...

Oh and RE: Setra. How many WoW PCs can dance on the top of a temple to *Satan* and counter the magic of the gods? Or build fortresses which take seven years of siege to force the defenders out? Or oversee and improve a fortress so blinged out that its destruction levels a continent? Or create new, better warriors? Or sway the allegience of entire nations? Or forge an artifact that can overthrow the mind of any who possess or, oftentimes, even lay eyes on it? Has any character in Warcraft done things like this?

There are many ways to measure power beyond DPS.

WalkingTarget
2007-12-04, 04:55 PM
Ruling out the hobbit hypothesis on grounds of it making absolutely no sense, we are left with trolls being at least highly resistant to normal weapons, if not outright immune.

If Samwise is any expert, a hobbit does no damage to a Troll's backside when kicking it (at least in song). :smallwink: Also, in the First Age, Hurin defeated many trolls before being captured by Gothmog (and their blood melted his axe, which is not named or explicitly stated as being magic, and these aren't Olog-hai so there's no ruling either way there, just pointing out Trolls being slain by a warrior).

I would agree that normal weapons have a hard time damaging things that are harder than stone. They aren't designed for that. Magic weapons are just that, magic. There's no reason to think that something mundane that's better suited for the task would be able to injure them, magic weapons just cheat. Hell, some of the dwarves in The Hobbit are specifically mentioned as using mattocks as weapons; much better suited for attacking stone than a sword or spear.

EvilElitest
2007-12-04, 05:02 PM
You cannot Win against EE, it is nigh impossible.

I can argue almost anything (i can never pull off a 'Boys are better than girls" argument, i always loss in 30 seconds)
But i'll take that as a complement


He will never stop arguing and his tactic of practically spamming information makes it hard to see what is true and false, and is very annoying to argue against.
1. Hey, i thought we were friends:smallfrown:
2. Its called backing up my point, and not letting anything statement go uncountered. It works great if you want to be a lawyer (debatable)
3. You were just as bad on Link vs. seph, we both are to blame
4. Stop directing all the hate at me
5. You made a five year old cry
6. I simple use logic and the sources at my disposal to try to reach a conclusion. I am not a zealot, i know when i'm wrong. I just have to be logically convineced



You may as well give up now and spare yourselves 10-40 pages.
1. What is the fun in that
2. W'eve been friends for ages, why wound me so?
3. He is right though, might as well give up now

That said I still want to see the Lich King win, but I don't know enough about LotR and/or Warcraft lore to argue.


However I can say this.

It takes like.. okay exactly how many people, of what level, to beat Illidan, on average? Now how much more powerful are each of these people compared to Aragorn? Ten times? Twenty times? More?
your acting under the presumption that Sauron is weaker than Illidan


Arthas is stronger than Illidan, possibly even two or three times so now. And Frostmourne is a high level artifact, probably near the level of the Ring.
Ummmmmmmmm, the Ring give hte owner god like powers, Frost moure is just a really good sword


And Sauron has the power of.. let's say 200 men. Well Arthas has the power of almost ten times than. If Arthas were to fight Sauron in solo combat, he'd likely win, and he could probably use the ring to kill Sauron and become the new dark lord of middle earth, or however it goes. Now the army doesn't matter as much, because they belong to the Lich King.

Setra, please back this up. I know arguing with you is annoying, but please, back it up
Bear in mind, Sauron need to just grab onto Arthas and then he wins

And setra, they are more stubborn debatabers than me

Oh and Walking Target, name where my sources were mistaked? I've responded to your ealier points, and I will admit i could make a mistake (there is a LOT of text) i still stand by my points

from,
EE

EvilElitest
2007-12-04, 05:06 PM
If Samwise is any expert, a hobbit does no damage to a Troll's backside when kicking it (at least in song). :smallwink: Also, in the First Age, Hurin defeated many trolls before being captured by Gothmog (and their blood melted his axe, which is not named or explicitly stated as being magic, and these aren't Olog-hai so there's no ruling either way there, just pointing out Trolls being slain by a warrior).

I would agree that normal weapons have a hard time damaging things that are harder than stone. They aren't designed for that. Magic weapons are just that, magic. There's no reason to think that something mundane that's better suited for the task would be able to injure them, magic weapons just cheat. Hell, some of the dwarves in The Hobbit are specifically mentioned as using mattocks as weapons; much better suited for attacking stone than a sword or spear.

Ok than, all trolls are really hard to hurt, and tough by nature. Olag-hai are super trolls, and so they would be even harder to kill. Thus a good deal of the scourge can hurt them, (zombies, skelotons, ghouls, gargoles ect)

Also, in Tolkion's writings that i do not posses might have more on them,

Oh three general question
1. anyone answer my death knight question?
2. In this debate, what is Gothmog? Will he just be considered an orc (like in hte movies?)
3. Is my list of sauron's minions correct

Or people kept saying that Bard's Black Arrow was a magic item when it says that nowhere in the book. (the hobbit is one book I know considering I have had it read to me from front to back at least 9 times that I can think of and I have read it myself quite a few)
1. This is tolkien, all of his magical weapons are described by that. very few things are expcitlly stated to be magical
2. An arrow that never misses, always one hit kills, and is always retreived? In a magical world, know for magical weapons being described elaberatly, sounds magic to me

from,
EE

WalkingTarget
2007-12-04, 05:27 PM
2. In this debate, what is Gothmog? Will he just be considered an orc (like in hte movies?)

Gothmog was the leader of the Balrogs during the First Age.

One specific thing that you had wrong was when the first dragons appeared relative to Sauron's shape changing fights and was easily looked up. I merely point out corrections.

warty goblin
2007-12-04, 05:30 PM
OK, I did a little reading on Deathknights in Warcraft, and have picked up the following:
1) Can be living or undead.
2) Has lots of different undead oriented spells
3) Has a vampiric runeblade.

Now the dead deathknights (sounds redundant somehow...) are probably immune to the Black Breath etc, there's really no way to know for sure since we never see what the Black Breath does to undead in Tolkein. But the live ones certainly will be vulnerable to it, and also to morgul blade shankings.

Their magic will almost certainly be locked down by Sauron, so all of those powers are pretty much off limits.

A vampiric runeblade is not, in fact, a consecrated holy weapon designed for whacking undead, and hence won't work on the Nazgul in its off the shelf variety. In fact the impression I got in my readings is that the deathknights are in some way defined by their runeblades and their attendant vampiric properties. Unless you can make a vampiric weapon holy (doubtful, at least to me) I don't see these working at all well against the Nazgul.

Hence I conclude that the Nazgul will be able to overpower deathknights with relative ease.

For point of reference, all of this information is from this page:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Death_knight_lore

EvilElitest
2007-12-04, 05:31 PM
Gothmog was the leader of the Balrogs during the First Age.


Not that gothmog the other one, the captain of morgul under hte WK, who took control during hte battle of Pelonor feilds after his master's death. Nothing is known about him other than his name, but in the movie he is shown as a super deformed but quite cunning orc. i'm asking, should we just go with the orc version?


One specific thing that you had wrong was when the first dragons appeared relative to Sauron's shape changing fights and was easily looked up. I merely point out corrections.
Just checking, but basiclly we are assuming that Sauron can assume any shape?

should we pervent him from assuming the LK's shape for fairness sake
Oh warty goblin, thanks for claifiying
Just to add, the lich king might have one holy undead slaying weapon, Ashbringer (it has a very long back story i don't have time to explain at the moment) but rememeber, after a weapon hurts a nazgul, the weapon, magical or not is destroyed, so it is kinda one hit

from,
EE

warty goblin
2007-12-04, 05:56 PM
Right, so the LK has one sword that is capable of killing a Nazgul. Assuming of course that its weilder can best the Nazgul in combat, which is not easy to say the least.

OK, here I am going to make a few assumptions, so please somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
1) Ashbringer, being designed to kill undead, cannot be weilded by the undead, at least not without destroying said undead.
2) Thus it must be weilded by somebody living, most likely one of the living deathknights.
3) Living enemies of the Nazgul are subject to the Black Breath, fear, and morgul blade shankings. Fear the Deathknight is probably immune to, since he is rather accustomed to the undead and such. The Black Breath however he will most certainly not be, and will be overcome, or at least severely comprimized.
4) A severly comprimized warrior will be easy prey for the Nazgul, and will shortly bite it. Ashbringer can then be disposed of easily enough. That's what volcanoes are for. Or simply given to some living champion of Sauron for extra undead smiterage.
5) Allied Death Knights will be of limited effectiveness at best, since they're weapons can't hurt the Nazgul as previously demonstrated.

Hence I stand by my conclusions from above. The Deathknights are royally boned by the Nazgul, who will carry them away to the Houses of Lamentation for some good old fashioned family fun, Mordor style.

EvilElitest
2007-12-04, 06:03 PM
Right, so the LK has one sword that is capable of killing a Nazgul. Assuming of course that its weilder can best the Nazgul in combat, which is not easy to say the least.

OK, here I am going to make a few assumptions, so please somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
1) Ashbringer, being designed to kill undead, cannot be weilded by the undead, at least not without destroying said undead.
2) Thus it must be weilded by somebody living, most likely one of the living deathknights.
3) Living enemies of the Nazgul are subject to the Black Breath, fear, and morgul blade shankings. Fear the Deathknight is probably immune to, since he is rather accustomed to the undead and such. The Black Breath however he will most certainly not be, and will be overcome, or at least severely comprimized.
4) A severly comprimized warrior will be easy prey for the Nazgul, and will shortly bite it. Ashbringer can then be disposed of easily enough. That's what volcanoes are for. Or simply given to some living champion of Sauron for extra undead smiterage.
5) Allied Death Knights will be of limited effectiveness at best, since they're weapons can't hurt the Nazgul as previously demonstrated.

Hence I stand by my conclusions from above. The Deathknights are royally boned by the Nazgul, who will carry them away to the Houses of Lamentation for some good old fashioned family fun, Mordor style.

1. I think, but i'm not sure (I never did this quest) it can be wielded by one death knight (its creator)
2. if that one knight, i think it can only be wielded by somebody of his blood (not sure though)
3. I agree
4. IF sauron got ashbringer, they Scourge are royally screwed. The orginal user was able tyo kill thousands of scourge after being ambushed, only being killed when his own son stabbed him in the back. True, if a nazgul gets stabs by ashbringer, it is destroyed
5. And even if they somehow do, they lose their weapon
from,
EE

warty goblin
2007-12-04, 07:45 PM
Is the deathknight that can weild Ashbringer dead? Because if not, he's alive and my earlier analysis stands. If he is, in fact, dead, then I'll have to do some thinking...

EvilElitest
2007-12-04, 08:33 PM
Is the deathknight that can weild Ashbringer dead? Because if not, he's alive and my earlier analysis stands. If he is, in fact, dead, then I'll have to do some thinking...

He is a special case, basiclly he was a paldidin who used an evil artifact, turned it good, and crafted ashbringer. He slew many undead, however his son wanted power and led him into an ambush, where he fought may scourge and held off Kel'Thuzad himself. However he son stabbed him in the back, and he was raised as one of hte four hosemen (they are the only unwilling death knights) more like a ghost, and he wield the blade ever hopeing somebody worth will take it from him and avenge him

Wait, i'll check soon
from,
EE

EvilElitest
2007-12-04, 08:38 PM
never mind, i was wrong

Apperently ashbringer was broken and corrupted, and the items needed to return it to its orginial form aren't attainable by players yet

This guy wields the corrupted ashbringer (http://www.wowwiki.com/Corrupted_Ashbringer)

This allows him to use it without hurting himself, but on the down side, has not effect to undead or evil creatures


So never mind, the death knights can only drive back the nazgul with fire, not kill them (and the WK can overcome the fire)
from,
EE

Setra
2007-12-04, 08:52 PM
your acting under the presumption that Sauron is weaker than Illidan No I am not.


Ummmmmmmmm, the Ring give hte owner god like powers, Frost moure is just a really good swordGodlike powers enough to lose to some random hero who is like 2000 times weaker than Arthas, with a sword MUCH weaker than Frostmourne.


Bear in mind, Sauron need to just grab onto Arthas and then he winsArthas just needs to chop off Sauron's finger and HE wins.

warty goblin
2007-12-04, 09:03 PM
No I am not.

Godlike powers enough to lose to some random hero who is like 2000 times weaker than Arthas, with a sword MUCH weaker than Frostmourne.

Arthas just needs to chop off Sauron's finger and HE wins.

Why do you say Elendil (or more accurately Elendil + Gil-galad + Elrond + Cirdin) is/are that much weaker than Arthas? Some evidence please? What has Arthas/Lich King actually done that is so outragiously badass?

I provided lots of examples of powerful things that Sauron has done, most of what I'm hearing from the LK side is "everybody's really afraid and thinks he's really powerful". Your argument is, I'm afraid, pretty much that, you say the LK is so much more powerful than Sauron and provide no evidence for the comparison.
I don't mean to offend and I hope I do not, but this sort of argument is really beginning to bug me.

Setra
2007-12-04, 10:03 PM
Why do you say Elendil (or more accurately Elendil + Gil-galad + Elrond + Cirdin) is/are that much weaker than Arthas? Some evidence please? What has Arthas/Lich King actually done that is so outragiously badass?
Math

It takes like 20 (I forgot the exact number, maybe more, maybe less) level 70 characters to beat Illidan.

Each of them is at LEAST as strong as Elendil (or the others), not to mention they need healers, which if I recall correctly don't really exist in lotr, at least not to the extent in Warcraft.

Illidan is weaker than Arthas BEFORE the Lich King.

Therefore Arthas could probably beat Sauron, maybe not 100%, it's certainly not a definite thing I will admit, but it's certainly a possibility.

Prove to me there is no way the Lich King could possibly not cut off the ring and 'win'?

Selrahc
2007-12-04, 10:10 PM
Heres the thing... So far the Warcraft people have been fairly forgiving in accepting claims of equal power levels from lord of the rings foes, even ace-pting stuiff like the Nazgul being tougher than death knights.

If we look at World of Warcraft, that becomes faintly ridiculous. The powerful death knights are capable of taking on large groups of heroes. Each one of which is capable of taking on a dragon, or an army on their own. You have horrendously powerful wielders of the arcane and divine. You have melee classes tough enough to take a hit from a meteor.

And you get about forty of those army killing, dragon slaying, well coordinated behemoths, equipped with gear stolen from the gods, trained against some of the most powerful foes in the history of warcraft. And then you get two really powerful NPCs. As in, even more powerful than the crazy good pcs. So with this army, that would be capable of slaughtering Saurons entire orc and troll force, with no casualties, and you fight one guy. Illidan. If you're lucky, you take about 90% casualties, and win. If you plan it wrong you die quickly.

That guy is Arthas's inferior in combat. By a long way. Whether or not you can kill Arthas in Wrath of the Lich King, it will take more than twice as many people, of higher level and with better gear. Capable of even more incredible feats.

That is way beyond anything in the entirety of Lord of the Rings. The highest level PCs in World of Warcraft (I.E, the ones who are still ten levels lower than you need to be to fight Arthas), have killed many more, and far tougher monsters than Gilgalad or the other bigwigs. They also have far more magical items, of far more tangible benefit. They also fight monsters much tougher than Dragons, on a regular basis. There are much tougher monsters than Dragons around, and the best of them can solo those tough monsters.



The themes of the two works are completely different. The power levels are completely different, and I'm not really seeing a reason to be tiptoeing around this issue(As Rutee was obviously doing). World of Warcraft is a diverse, high magic setting. There are ridiculously powerful foes, and ridiculously powerful heroes to fight them.

What does that mean for this? Well for one, I think that the guys who fought and killed Sauron, aren't better than the lieutenants of Arthas. Secondly, I really really don't think Saurons spellcasters are anything like as strong as Arthas's. Thirdly, I don't think the Nazgul have an advantage over the top power people on Arthas's side. And lastly, I think the best among Arthas's forces can walk into the middle of the orcish army, and start killing. And there is nothing Sauron can do to even hope to stop them without dispatching his ever dwindling corps of elite troops. Trolls and such would be mince in seconds. Even if they were immune to non magical weapons(Which I also don't believe)

WalkingTarget
2007-12-04, 10:31 PM
Not that gothmog the other one, the captain of morgul under hte WK, who took control during hte battle of Pelonor feilds after his master's death. Nothing is known about him other than his name, but in the movie he is shown as a super deformed but quite cunning orc. i'm asking, should we just go with the orc version?


Oh, that Gothmog.

"[The Witch-king] now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues."

That's all we get to know about that Gothmog. What he is is rather irrelevant as he's not given any more screen time than that. All he does is order troops into battle after the WK bites it, so we can say that Sauron's armies have a chain of command while in the field.

Executor
2007-12-04, 11:13 PM
On the topic of WoW: I try to ignore game mechanics as much as possible in VS debates. Afterall, if the game mechanics were 'true' then a Stimpacked Starcraft Marine could outrun space fighters. Which is simply ridiculous.

EvilElitest
2007-12-04, 11:18 PM
Setra, you've betrayed me, a man who thought you as my friend? why would you wound me so? I am a teen ager, please don't give me an excuse to angst, so many bad things occur from that


Math

It takes like 20 (I forgot the exact number, maybe more, maybe less) level 70 characters to beat Illidan.

Each of them is at LEAST as strong as Elendil (or the others), not to mention they need healers, which if I recall correctly don't really exist in lotr, at least not to the extent in Warcraft.

Hey setra, there is a problem with your mathimatical equation. You have no proof that these 20 guys are stronger than the super 6 team. There in your logic fails



Illidan is weaker than Arthas BEFORE the Lich King.

Therefore Arthas could probably beat Sauron, maybe not 100%, it's certainly not a definite thing I will admit, but it's certainly a possibility.
You have to provide counter's to sauron's powers. Setra, you should know the format by now


Prove to me there is no way the Lich King could possibly not cut off the ring and 'win'?
1. cutting off the ring is not an instata kill, only in the non-canonical movies
2. Considering how well Sauron did against far great foes, i see a problem in your argument
3. Sauron just needs to touch the dude, burn him to a crispt (no mention of Arthas havinig fire immunity)
Sorry dude, just out matched, you need more evidence than that

Heres the thing... So far the Warcraft people have been fairly forgiving in accepting claims of equal power levels from lord of the rings foes, even ace-pting stuiff like the Nazgul being tougher than death knights.
just to say, i'm really not that impresed by Warcraft PCs out of their own world. They are powerful yes, i admit it, but in a sense, they powerful only against others of their kind. Think about it, if a group of 40 odd pcs when against sauron and the nazgul, most would suffer from black breath and massive fear effects. They are powerful yes, but they are sadly, balenced. And it is the balence that is going to kill them

If we look at World of Warcraft, that becomes faintly ridiculous. The powerful death knights are capable of taking on large groups of heroes. Each one of which is capable of taking on a dragon, or an army on their own. You have horrendously powerful wielders of the arcane and divine. You have melee classes tough enough to take a hit from a meteor.
lost in translation, in order to translate their powers, they become so much less powerful (look at warcraft RPG)

And you get about forty of those army killing, dragon slaying, well coordinated behemoths, equipped with gear stolen from the gods, trained against some of the most powerful foes in the history of warcraft. And then you get two really powerful NPCs. As in, even more powerful than the crazy good pcs. So with this army, that would be capable of slaughtering Saurons entire orc and troll force, with no casualties, and you fight one guy. Illidan. If you're lucky, you take about 90% casualties, and win. If you plan it wrong you die quickly.
40 army killing behemoths who have no skill fighting a foe who won't fight fair. The reason why WOW pcs are so good is because the monsters are so willing to play alone with them, translate it into a remotly realistic manner, they are so screwed. Black breath, super tranformation, fear, corruption, things where the protecting of the game balence is lost, they are in trouble

That guy is Arthas's inferior in combat. By a long way. Whether or not you can kill Arthas in Wrath of the Lich King, it will take more than twice as many people, of higher level and with better gear. Capable of even more incredible feats
yawn
Prove it

Really please, give me examples of his oh so amazing melee skils
Wait, you only real example is Illiden
To prove that you have to prove that Illiden is greater than sauron, or 40 level 70s epic equippied are better than Illiden
and you haven't proven that, you just went "It is so because i say so"

That is way beyond anything in the entirety of Lord of the Rings. The highest level PCs in World of Warcraft (I.E, the ones who are still ten levels lower than you need to be to fight Arthas), have killed many more, and far tougher monsters than Gilgalad or the other bigwigs. They also have far more magical items, of far more tangible benefit. They also fight monsters much tougher than Dragons, on a regular basis. There are much tougher monsters than Dragons around, and the best of them can solo those tough monsters
Flaw, your acting under the assumption that WOW monsters are automaticcly greater than LOTRS. Just because a monsters is hard for wow characters to kill and has a niffty level 80 on their screen does not make them epic. Wow characters reley on the fact that the game is not in the least realistic, and so they get by (examples, flying oppenets don't pick them up and drop them from high distances, poision them with uncurable posions (morgual blade) or just touch them they burn to death
also, if we are going by wow cannon, then these guys are real characters, not things created by players. They are real breathing people. And real people make mistakes, or get afraid. Or can be corrupted. WOW works because the players can figure out how to kill the thing via internet, other people telling them, and trial and error. In a realistic fight, they characters have one chance, and have to realisticlly respond

The themes of the two works are completely different. The power levels are completely different, and I'm not really seeing a reason to be tiptoeing around this issue(As Rutee was obviously doing). World of Warcraft is a diverse, high magic setting. There are ridiculously powerful foes, and ridiculously powerful heroes to fight them.
accually, Rutee is smart enough to catch on that if you bring in the translation issue, then realisticlly, you take away a lot of the LK's power. he is powerful compared to WOW characters, but what is a 300 damage item in LOTRS, where their is not hit points. Just a hard hitting item. Unlike WOW, were you can get hit and keep going, in LOTRS, the nazgul just need to black breath you, morgul blade you and your down
What is a level 60 in wow could be a little pansy in another world. Translation dude, think it over

What does that mean for this? Well for one, I think that the guys who fought and killed Sauron, aren't better than the lieutenants of Arthas. Secondly, I really really don't think Saurons spellcasters are anything like as strong as Arthas's.
1. Proof
2. Proof
3. Proof
I'm sorry to say this, but what "I think" isn't worth anything. not to offend, but you need to back up these points. You have a whole wiki at your disposal, use it

Thirdly, I don't think the Nazgul have an advantage over the top power people on Arthas's side.
really? They pray tell, how do you propose arthas' guys will hurt them, considering they have a noticable lack of holy anti undead dudes in their army for some reason

And lastly, I think the best among Arthas's forces can walk into the middle of the orcish army, and start killing. And there is nothing Sauron can do to even hope to stop them without dispatching his ever dwindling corps of elite troops. Trolls and such would be mince in seconds. Even if they were immune to non magical weapons(Which I also don't believe)
1. Really? Because me and WG have shown that it is pretty hard for you little monsters to even hurt sauron elites. And that sauron plus nazgul can bring down any of your guys easy. And lesser wraiths? Corruption? Phamtons? Dragons? Balrog? Monster swarms? Ninja half dragon trolls? The oliphaunts? The evil magic?
2. Minced by what? A bunch of abominations that can't hurt them with their meat cleavers and claws
3. Don't belive it? Ok cool, prove me wrong

Oh and walking target, are we just accepting Gothmog is an orcs (As shown in the film, not that it makes a difference) showing he can take over if something happens to the WK

from,
EE
2

EvilElitest
2007-12-04, 11:20 PM
On the topic of WoW: I try to ignore game mechanics as much as possible in VS debates. Afterall, if the game mechanics were 'true' then a Stimpacked Starcraft Marine could outrun space fighters. Which is simply ridiculous.

and translation, causes some problems.

Oh, love your sig
from,
EE

warty goblin
2007-12-04, 11:28 PM
Several points:

1) Sauron could avoid having the Ring cut off by not wearing it. He functions just fine without the Ring on for the entirety of his stay on Numenor, and does some pretty badass stuff there as well.

2) The powerlevels thing. This one really cuts both ways. If we take WoW gameplay stuff as canon, then there's that little problem of the plague whiping out all of those epic heroes way back when (somebody who's played WoW for a while probably knows when this was, it was the plague attack of some boss which somebody got their pet infected with and then resumoned it in town). We know Sauron can make plagues of rather frightening virulence. Hence Sauron can destroy the entire population of Azaroth, give or take, and going by the "gameplay is canon" argument, they are powerless to do jack about it.

Another example: healing. LOTR types manage to pull all of their really badass stuff without healing, but, as pointed out, in order to do tasks of similar difficulty, a group of WoW heroes can't even leave town without healers. They also almost always do this in groups AFAIK. Granted, there is the occasional example of healing, but only for poisoned wounds and similar, other then that, LOTR heroes just don't seem to ever get hit in combat (only examples of healing I can think of, Luthein heals Beren a few times, Elrond heals Frodo, Aragorn heals assorted people). LOTR heroes semi-routinely do things like kill dragons of truly unusual size with non-magic, or low magic, gear. These are dragons capable of sacking entire cities (Turin and Glaurung).

Actually this brings me to a general point. LOTR types really don't need items as badly as WoW types, and still do some pretty insane stuff. Aragorn wanders the wilderness for years doing all sorts of dangerous rangery things with a broken sword. Gimli kills 42 uruks at Helm's Deep with a normal axe, without a break or healing, and the worst he has to show for it is a single bandage. Aragorn and Legolas escape completely unharmed, as does Eomer. Both Aragorn and Eomer actually went outside the walls to fight as well a few times.

Here's my general point, gameplay is a terrible example of power. In BFMEII three groups of crappy archers with minimal upgrades can waste an armored dragon with minimal losses. If gameplay is canon, then damn, those ice dragons no longer look so scary, because I bet Sauron can drum up 25 orcs for every ice dragon of the Lich King's.

As an adenum, give me the most insane over the to powerful thing a PC ever does in WoW. I bet I can find somebody in Tolkein who does something equally badass, probably with less equipment and backup.

edit: what EE said a couple posts up, the really long one, is exactly what I am trying to say, only better.

EvilElitest
2007-12-04, 11:31 PM
Several points:

1) Sauron could avoid having the Ring cut off by not wearing it. He functions just fine without the Ring on for the entirety of his stay on Numenor, and does some pretty badass stuff there as well.

2) The powerlevels thing. This one really cuts both ways. If we take WoW gameplay stuff as canon, then there's that little problem of the plague whiping out all of those epic heroes way back when (somebody who's played WoW for a while probably knows when this was, it was the plague attack of some boss which somebody got their pet infected with and then resumoned it in town). We know Sauron can make plagues of rather frightening virulence. Hence Sauron can destroy the entire population of Azaroth, give or take, and going by the "gameplay is canon" argument, they are powerless to do jack about it.

Another example: healing. LOTR types manage to pull all of their really badass stuff without healing, but, as pointed out, in order to do tasks of similar difficulty, a group of WoW heroes can't even leave town without healers. They also almost always do this in groups AFAIK. Granted, there is the occasional example of healing, but only for poisoned wounds and similar, other then that, LOTR heroes just don't seem to ever get hit in combat (only examples of healing I can think of, Luthein heals Beren a few times, Elrond heals Frodo, Aragorn heals assorted people). LOTR heroes semi-routinely do things like kill dragons of truly unusual size with non-magic, or low magic, gear. These are dragons capable of sacking entire cities (Turin and Glaurung).

Actually this brings me to a general point. LOTR types really don't need items as badly as WoW types, and still do some pretty insane stuff. Aragorn wanders the wilderness for years doing all sorts of dangerous rangery things with a broken sword. Gimli kills 42 uruks at Helm's Deep with a normal axe, without a break or healing, and the worst he has to show for it is a single bandage. Aragorn and Legolas escape completely unharmed, as does Eomer. Both Aragorn and Eomer actually went outside the walls to fight as well a few times.

Here's my general point, gameplay is a terrible example of power. In BFMEII three groups of crappy archers with minimal upgrades can waste an armored dragon with minimal losses. If gameplay is canon, then damn, those ice dragons no longer look so scary, because I bet Sauron can drum up 25 orcs for every ice dragon of the Lich King's.

As an adenum, give me the most insane over the to powerful thing a PC ever does in WoW. I bet I can find somebody in Tolkein who does something equally badass, probably with less equipment and backup.

ouch, this is it, hit it where it hurt, right in the game designe errors. Rutee seems so wise by avoiding this issue up til now
/cookie for WG
from,
EE

Bago!!!
2007-12-04, 11:39 PM
Okay, I was just skimming when I saw this. 8 pages!?!? Okay, right of the bat, I am a huge fan of Warcraft, played Warcraft 3, the Expansion pack, and I own World of Warcraft. On top of that, I read the history a great deal. I have read the Lord of the Rings Trilogy, the Hobbit (absolute favorite!), the Similarion (but that was a long time ago), and my brother owns the other LOTR book which the name eludes me.

Anyway, what has the great Lich King done that is so bad ass? Well, I don't know much about Ner'zhul did before he became the lich king, but he managed to bring almost all the creatures in Northrend under his wing, defeated the Nerubian Empire (once of the slithid empire) and made most of their race into undead slaves (Course they are still around). Then there is the plague of undeath that ravaged the Kingdom of Lorderon. And he established a cult of the damned.

Now Arthas. Before his damnation was a well accomplished paladin to begin with, a superb weapon master, fought through many battles, went toe to toe with Malgani and hordes of both orcs and undead.

His damnation brought him tremendous power, he accomplished defeating Uther Lightbringer, Head of the Silver hand, penetrated the defenses of Qualthalas, broke through Dalaran City defenses (The absolute power of arcane might in Lorderon), managed to defeat Saphiron even while severely weakened, made it through the kingdom of the Nerubians while severely weakened, defeated the combined efforts of the blood elves and naga numerous times, then eventually beaten Illadin, who has over 10000 years of experiance under his belt, is powefuller than any other demon (aside from Kil'jaden), and made it home in time for supper with the Lich King. Arthas alone did so much bad ass stuff. 0.0

Now my current take on this.

Okay, I believe is that, army wise, the Lich King wins. He has flying hordes! Gargoyles, Frost Wyrms, Destroyers! Oh my! Then there are the undead liches under the command of Lich King (Yes there are other liches other than Kel'thuzad, those that were Ner'zhul's original advisors). Then there were the four death knights, Anuberak (A HUGE tank that could easily cleave through hordes of foes like butter), then there is the spontaneous necromancy magic that can easily be accomplished. But Sauron has the Wraiths, they are as frightening beasts! Well, yeah. They are. But the orcs are cowards by nature, I am pretty sure they would be faltering as the armies came forth. As for the Witch King, well, he was pretty tough but he fell to a girl and a hobbit, right? Well, you gotta have a huge group of people when your fighting against Kel'thuzad, each one of these are capable of causing havoc in their own. As for the necromancy that Sauron pulls off, I don't see it too often. Perhaps there is a reason for that. I mean, maybe he can't use it as often as those in World of Warcraft, who flaunt their power at a mere whim. Constant reinforcements from the fallen isn't half bad, along with the liches tossing all sorts of spells left and right, and the freezing breath of the frost wyrms overhead!

Toe to toe... Mono el mono.... that is another matter...... thats really tough to figure out. Melee combat, wow.... titantic battle extradinair! Well, how many spells have been casted in LOTR spontantously with instant effect? (Like a fireball?) I haven't read of anything like that. Now the Lich King himself would cast those spells. And frostmourne gains more power with each foe that is slain with the blade.

As for the whole manipulation from Sauron... if he was that powerful, why did he need to fight the elves or humans? Why not force them to kill each other? A serouis question here.

Okay... thats all I got for now. Sorry if its confusing or what not. Took me an hour to right it down (interuptions included).

Edit: HOLY COW I MISSED OUT ON ALOT! DARN IT!!!

Setra
2007-12-04, 11:44 PM
Setra, you've betrayed me, a man who thought you as my friend? why would you wound me so? I am a teen ager, please don't give me an excuse to angst, so many bad things occur from that Arguing againt you doesn't mean I dislike you. I'm just bored and wanted to join the losing side.



Hey setra, there is a problem with your mathimatical equation. You have no proof that these 20 guys are stronger than the super 6 team. There in your logic failsI didn't prove it because I thought it was quite obvious.

These are people who can fight dragons, a feat practically impossible within Lord of the Rings, people who are strong enough to wound a dragon who is not missing scaled with their arrows. That alone is proof enough to me.

Before I continue, I will say this: I have only seen the movies, so I will be using information from Wikipedia.... Oh hey look Sauron ISN'T the master of turning people to his side!!


Dwarves proved too resilient to bend to his will
Anyways

1. cutting off the ring is not an instata kill, only in the non-canonical movies
Also, according to this, he "forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places" upon losing the ring.


yawn
Prove it
We've given enough proof, you have yet to DISPROVE it.

20+ PCs, of each 1 is probably equal or greater to the people who beat (Proof of this is an ability to kill Dragons,which those people cold not do) Sauron > Illidan < Arthas

You can yell proof all you want but we have given enough, disprove it, and prove your case.

Bago!!!
2007-12-04, 11:55 PM
On the topic of WoW: I try to ignore game mechanics as much as possible in VS debates. Afterall, if the game mechanics were 'true' then a Stimpacked Starcraft Marine could outrun space fighters. Which is simply ridiculous.

Well, its all we really got for the Lich King cause there are no novels about him, are there? If there was, I would have been one of the first to own a copy. But anyway, what your saying is simply ignore an essintial part of the whole thing. The Warcraft Universe is for games. There have been novels that are truely amazing, but have not been on the topic of the Lich King. What your saying is simply usign the little that they give on the Lich King Lore, which is incredibly vague, ability wise.

warty goblin
2007-12-05, 12:24 AM
Arguing againt you doesn't mean I dislike you. I'm just bored and wanted to join the losing side.


I didn't prove it because I thought it was quite obvious.

These are people who can fight dragons, a feat practically impossible within Lord of the Rings, people who are strong enough to wound a dragon who is not missing scaled with their arrows. That alone is proof enough to me.

Before I continue, I will say this: I have only seen the movies, so I will be using information from Wikipedia.... Oh hey look Sauron ISN'T the master of turning people to his side!!


Anyways

Also, according to this, he "forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places" upon losing the ring.


We've given enough proof, you have yet to DISPROVE it.

20+ PCs, of each 1 is probably equal or greater to the people who beat (Proof of this is an ability to kill Dragons,which those people cold not do) Sauron > Illidan < Arthas

You can yell proof all you want but we have given enough, disprove it, and prove your case.

People kill dragons in LOTR about as often as dragons crop up, its by no means impossible for them, just highly difficult. They do tend to do this using a distinct lack of obscenely munchinishly powerful magical gear as well. Bard kills Smaug with a semi-normal arrow (its magic is under dispute atm), in one shot, and he's by no means pushing the envelope of LOTR power. Show me the WoW character who one-shots dragons alone without backup or without magical equipment and I'll be impressed. Before people jump on underpoweredness of LOTR dragons, bear in mind that Smaug had earlier destroyed three nations in about a week, solo, before his armor upgrade. Sure, he aimed for the weakspot, just like any other sensible person would. Not being a moron in no way decreases the deed.

Turin kills Glaurung, the first dragon, and even lives to tell about it. His sword was magical I believe, but that's about all the magic equipment he had. Again, alone and without healing. Then again, Turin is incrediably badass that he actually offs Melkor at the apocalypse, so...

But anyway, if Bard the Bowman can kill dragons, its no stretch that Elendil or Gil-galad could, since by any normal powerscaling they'd come out far far above Bard. The fact that they didn't is more indicitive of dragons making themselves remarkable scarce around them for some reason than lack of power.

Yes, Sauron does not turn many dwarves. The text of the Silmarillion indicates that he did in fact turn some during the days of the Last Alliance. Dwarves were made to be nearly impossible to corrupt, nearly as much so as elves, whom Sauron never turned at all (although its pretty clear that Galadriel would have gone evil if she'd taken the Ring, the fact is that she resisted the Ring, thus proving her incoruptability).

Does that count as a disproof?

Setra
2007-12-05, 12:57 AM
Does that count as a disproof?
Maybe, probably, too lazy to read through all of it.. but I will argue one thing.


People kill dragons in LOTR about as often as dragons crop up, its by no means impossible for them, just highly difficult. They do tend to do this using a distinct lack of obscenely munchinishly powerful magical gear as well. Bard kills Smaug with a semi-normal arrow (its magic is under dispute atm), in one shot, and he's by no means pushing the envelope of LOTR power. Show me the WoW character who one-shots dragons alone without backup or without magical equipment and I'll be impressed. Before people jump on underpoweredness of LOTR dragons, bear in mind that Smaug had earlier destroyed three nations in about a week, solo, before his armor upgrade. Sure, he aimed for the weakspot, just like any other sensible person would. Not being a moron in no way decreases the deed.Per the mechanics of WoW, a one in a billion shot is impossible.

IF it were, then yes they could probably one shot a dragon without magical equipment. Just like, if Bard had to rely on mechanics, he never could have beaten Smaug, therefore that argument is technically irrelevant. The fact is, people in Warcraft can kill dragons all the time, whereas in LotR it is a HUGe event to do so.

I would also like to note that you admit the existence of said magical equipment, compared to LotR, magical equipment in Warcraft is commonplace, because it is High Magic, compared to Low Magic.

I cannot see. why a being who is considered 'The most powerful being possible' in a high magic world, could lose to someone who is 'The most powerful being' in a low magic campaign.

Not to mention, those magical items you fault characters for relying on, would they not also be in the hands of The Lich King, to use against Sauron?

Rutee
2007-12-05, 02:10 AM
I had a long post, and then a power outage killed it.

I'm therefore going to cut to the quick, with one addition.


Actually this brings me to a general point. LOTR types really don't need items as badly as WoW types, and still do some pretty insane stuff. Aragorn wanders the wilderness for years doing all sorts of dangerous rangery things with a broken sword. Gimli kills 42 uruks at Helm's Deep with a normal axe, without a break or healing, and the worst he has to show for it is a single bandage. Aragorn and Legolas escape completely unharmed, as does Eomer. Both Aragorn and Eomer actually went outside the walls to fight as well a few times.
42 people huh? That's a whole lot. And Gimli's bad-ass++, right?

From Highlord Morgraine's article..

According to Korfax, Champion of the Light, the first Dreadnaught's Battlegear was also forged for Mograine at this time, giving him the look of a demon as he battled the Scourge. His exploits against the Scourge became legendary; he could go into battle against legions of the undead, Ashbringer held high, and emerge unscathed - leaving only ashes in his wake.
Legions. As in, at minimum, hundreds. And this person is far outstripped by the Lich King; He's beaten handily by *Kel'Thuzad*. While it's true that Gimli is not an uber-bad-ass, just a bad-ass... is Aragorn that much better then him? Because Aragorn, single-handedly, held off 4 or 5 Nazgul, didn't he? Or at least, 1?

A further note: Gimli gets 42 kills; I do not quite think he took on 42 people at once and win, but that within the middle of a rather large battle, scores 42 kills. True, if he only needs a bandage, he could have done much better, but that's still something of a far cry from "Take on hundreds at once and be perfectly safe."

I think the Nazgul have been vastly over-rated, actually. If Aragorn by himself can hold off 1, based on this, and Aragorn is not significantly better (As in, "I blink and you die") then Gimli, I'm pretty sure just about any deathknight is going to pretty much embarrass the Nazgul, and quite probably take on multiples, and /win/. Bear in mind that Morgraine isn't even the best Deathknight that the Lich King has (Though he's the best Death Knight we've seen under his service, bearing in mind that WotLK isn't out yet.. we haven't set foot on Northrend, and one can assume that he has enough sense of mind to keep the best on the home front.)

Sidenote, about Relying on Gear. LotR Heroes apparently accomplish, Bard aside, less-badass things with no gear. WoW heroes accomplish much more badass things while dripping in magical artifacts. Are they relying on it? By max level, sure. Are they relying on their teammates for some of it? Damn skippy.

Are they pulling off significantly more awesome things, and with greater frequency? Yeah, actually, we are. LotR may or may not have better raw ingredients, but the final result is lacking comparatively; That's why.

That's all I'm going to say on topic, because typing all that once was bad enough, and reminded me why I was playing games instead of looking at these forums. Twice is an "Absolutely not".

One note though;



Maybe I should start a group, People for the Accurate Reporting of Source Material...
I would join, but I have very little source material for anything, and mostly check Wikipedia and the like. That fine? :P

Edit:
A quote from Wikipedia on the Nazgul:
" They have no great physical power against the fearless," he wrote, "but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness"."

The Lich King could probably drop these people with /grunts/. Assuming Tolkien had in-universe details on his own works accurate, anyway, which isn't always the case (Not a slam on Tolkien; It's a large universe)

EvilElitest
2007-12-05, 11:07 AM
Arguing againt you doesn't mean I dislike you. I'm just bored and wanted to join the losing side.

Wait, don't you always argue on the losing side. And to date, not once have you been on my side in an argument. Sad


I didn't prove it because I thought it was quite obvious.

These are people who can fight dragons, a feat practically impossible within Lord of the Rings, people who are strong enough to wound a dragon who is not missing scaled with their arrows. That alone is proof enough to me.
1. They fight Warcraft dragons, weaker in some respects
2. They have to rely on tons of magical equipment, metagame knowlage, and game balence to win, something LOTRS characters can do without any magical weapons at all or any of those advantages accually
3. Translation



Before I continue, I will say this: I have only seen the movies, so I will be using information from Wikipedia.... Oh hey look Sauron ISN'T the master of turning people to his side!!
1. Oh that makes a lot more sense, trust me he would be screwed if it was movie only
2. Dwarves were the exception, because in LOTRS, they are praticlly immune to all will bending effects
3. There is mention of wicked dwarves that work with his orcs


Anyways

Also, according to this, he "forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places" upon losing the ring.
after being killed normally. Cutting off his ring doesn't kill him, you have to kill him, then make sure his minions don't get the ring, and still you are assured a victory


We've given enough proof, you have yet to DISPROVE it.

20+ PCs, of each 1 is probably equal or greater to the people who beat (Proof of this is an ability to kill Dragons,which those people cold not do) Sauron > Illidan < Arthas
sources. Pcs without their players, aren't really that great.


You can yell proof all you want but we have given enough, disprove it, and prove your case.
Warty goblin and i already did this
Oh and bago, most of your points were already stated a while back and countered

Just a point about undead

Say Sauron has 5,000 men of harad, vs. 4,000 ghouls, and 1,000 crypt fiends (not lords)
The haradrim are in a defensive postion
They fight, 1,000 haradrim are killed, and they flee their position
500 crypt fiends are killed, and 1,000 ghouls
now seems like a victory for the lich king, but consider this
1. Of the 1,000 haradrim corpses, some were taken back with them when they retreaded
2. Of those left behind, the haradrim burned or mutilated as many of their dead as they could before leaving
3. Over the course of the fight, some haradrim died in such a manner that hte body can't be raised anyways
4. The wounded ghouls need to eat some bodies to restorn health
So of the remaining haradrim dead, maybe 450 are raised, some as ghouls and some as zombies. Still seems like a LK victory right. Well remember this, of the orginal 4,000 ghouls, 3,000 are around, plus 250 ghouls, and 200 weaker and less useful zombies. Still seems like a vitory? Well remember, every crypt fiend that dies can never be replaced, ever. same with death knights, gargolyes, destroyers, and greater undead. Once killed, they are dead for good. So even if as massive causilty loss the LK destroys Sauron the first time, will he have enough forces to kill him a second time
Remember, orcs breed fast

Well, its all we really got for the Lich King cause there are no novels about him, are there? If there was, I would have been one of the first to own a copy. But anyway, what your saying is simply ignore an essintial part of the whole thing. The Warcraft Universe is for games. There have been novels that are truely amazing, but have not been on the topic of the Lich King. What your saying is simply usign the little that they give on the Lich King Lore, which is incredibly vague, ability wise.
what we are saying is if you can provide proof for his powers, then we have to assume they don't exist. Sorry

Per the mechanics of WoW, a one in a billion shot is impossible.
No its not, how can a WOW pc without magical weapons one shot a dragon? If you can show some way of this happening mechanically, then i'll concede

IF it were, then yes they could probably one shot a dragon without magical equipment. Just like, if Bard had to rely on mechanics, he never could have beaten Smaug, therefore that argument is technically irrelevant. The fact is, people in Warcraft can kill dragons all the time, whereas in LotR it is a HUGe event to do so.
1. Bard relying on mechanics? There are no mechanics in wow
2. Realism, LOTRS has it wow does not
3. Because in Wow, killing dragons all the time is possible because of obscene amounts of magical items, meta game knowlage, and millions of players

I cannot see. why a being who is considered 'The most powerful being possible' in a high magic world, could lose to someone who is 'The most powerful being' in a low magic campaign.
1. He isn't the most powerful being in Warcraft
2. What powers? We haven't really seen that many. He has lots of undead, and is a good melee fighter.
3. Sauron can counter almost all of his tatics

Not to mention, those magical items you fault characters for relying on, would they not also be in the hands of The Lich King, to use against Sauron?
???
The LK doesn't have PCS on his side

42 people huh? That's a whole lot. And Gimli's bad-ass++, right?
no magic, one single wound, not healing, not special equipment, and relying on realistic combat (he gets tiried). Quite a feat. Give him a magical weapon, then hell breaks loose

Legions. As in, at minimum, hundreds. And this person is far outstripped by the Lich King; He's beaten handily by *Kel'Thuzad*. While it's true that Gimli is not an uber-bad-ass, just a bad-ass... is Aragorn that much better then him?
Using super anti undead magical items, and lots of powers that LOTRS characters lack and still pull off super feats. And he had uncorrupted ashbringer, that counts for a lot

Because Aragorn, single-handedly, held off 4 or 5 Nazgul, didn't he? Or at least, 1
aragorn is better than gimli,
Also, aragorn didn't really hold them off, they were kinda leaving anyways (they had already morgul shanked frodo, why hang around?)

A further note: Gimli gets 42 kills; I do not quite think he took on 42 people at once and win, but that within the middle of a rather large battle, scores 42 kills. True, if he only needs a bandage, he could have done much better, but that's still something of a far cry from "Take on hundreds at once and be perfectly safe."
Aragorn fights hundreds at once in pelanor fields and black gate without being hit once. that takes skill. And he admits that he is weaker than Ilidur was

I think the Nazgul have been vastly over-rated, actually. If Aragorn by himself can hold off 1, based on this, and Aragorn is not significantly better (As in, "I blink and you die") then Gimli, I'm pretty sure just about any deathknight is going to pretty much embarrass the Nazgul, and quite probably take on multiples, and /win/. Bear in mind that Morgraine isn't even the best Deathknight that the Lich King has (Though he's the best Death Knight we've seen under his service, bearing in mind that WotLK isn't out yet.. we haven't set foot on Northrend, and one can assume that he has enough sense of mind to keep the best on the home front.)
mind explaining how these death knights will you know, hurt the nazgul? The might drive them back with fire (not the WK, but hte other eight) at best, hurting them seems a impossible. Name holy anti undead weapons the scourge has
Oh and living death knights will have trouble with both the black breath and the morgul blades

Sidenote, about Relying on Gear. LotR Heroes apparently accomplish, Bard aside, less-badass things with no gear. WoW heroes accomplish much more badass things while dripping in magical artifacts. Are they relying on it? By max level, sure. Are they relying on their teammates for some of it? Damn skippy
so, they have lots of magical items, meta gaming knowlage, and lots of friends
Could a group of Pcs using only non magical gear take on a dragon?

The Lich King could probably drop these people with /grunts/. Assuming Tolkien had in-universe details on his own works accurate, anyway, which isn't always the case (Not a slam on Tolkien; It's a large universe
what with? Frostmourn isn't anti undead or holy by a long run
Edit:

A quote from Wikipedia on the Nazgul:
" They have no great physical power against the fearless," he wrote, "but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness".
walking target can you check this, because in the fights they do have, the nazgul prove to be quite powerful
Also, sauron can blot out the sun, increased nazgul powers
from,
EE

WalkingTarget
2007-12-05, 12:50 PM
Could a group of Pcs using only non magical gear take on a dragon?

For a direct comparison, you could give one of them a powerful magic sword if you wish, as Turin had Gurthang when he defeated Glaurung. Then again, he took advantage of Tolkien-dragon weaknesses.


walking target can you check this, because in the fights they do have, the nazgul prove to be quite powerful

The quote he gives is from one of Tolkien's letters as far as I can determine (I don't have access to that source, but it seems to be backed up by more sources than just wikis online). If we're allowing after-the-fact Word of God rulings, then it's a valid statement.

The only fighting we actually see during the main narrative is the Eowyn vs. WK duel (ok, and a bit at Weathertop but not much). They've been in enough battles/wars that it can probably be assumed that they're not slouches, but there's no direct evidence that I'm aware of indicating great martial prowess (or lack thereof). Even in the aforesaid duel, I get a distinct vibe that the WK is relying on his "Fear me!" power as much as physical attacks as his strategy in the fight.

However, Gandalf said the following:

"The Ringwraiths are deadly enemies, but they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would possess if the Ruling Ring was on their master's hand again."

So the versions we get to see are underpowered versions of them to begin with.

Side note of dwarf corruptibility: there are 20 great rings, 1 is Sauron's, 3 are the special ones made by the elves. My interpretation is that the other 16 are basically all the same since they were all made and used by elves initially and were given to men and dwarves later after Sauron revealed his deception and reclaimed them (i.e. no actual difference in effect between the rings given to men and dwarves). Seven were chosen for the dwarves because that's how many clans there were.

Due to their inherent hardiness (a result of being created by the Smith Aule himself), the dwarves who had the rings:

Did not turn invisible.
Did not have their lifespans increased.
Were not brought under Sauron's control as the Nazgul were.
Did not become wraiths.
Developed a (greater) greed for gold and jewels and made them quick to anger (about the only detrimental effect).


They still got the other benefits of having rings of power (preservation, the ability to acquire the treasure they sought, etc).

EvilElitest
2007-12-05, 01:03 PM
Wait, so the nazgul are even more powerful when sauron has the ring? Oh gods
from,
EE

Poison_Fish
2007-12-05, 01:33 PM
Actually, the item, frostmourne, would slaughter the nazgul. It doesn't need to be anti-undead or holy. It's chaos damage, which means it rips anything asunder. Link (http://www.wowwiki.com/Frostmourne).

Also, wouldn't it be reasonable to say if it's a soul sucking sword, it could suck the nazgul's remainder, and add it's knowledge and skills to the lich king. This is of course assuming LK went toe to toe with them.

However, there are many other types of weapons out there that'll be able to do chaos type damage. Actually, under that assumption, a couple of fel orcs would walk through the nazgul.

Also, warcraft dragons are not weaker in anyway then the LotR dragons. They are in fact far more powerful. Consider the bronze dragonflight having the ability to go through time. link (http://www.wowwiki.com/Bronze_Dragonflight).

warty goblin
2007-12-05, 02:39 PM
Actually, the item, frostmourne, would slaughter the nazgul. It doesn't need to be anti-undead or holy. It's chaos damage, which means it rips anything asunder. Link (http://www.wowwiki.com/Frostmourne).
Correction: The Game balancing in WCIII gives it a damage type that ignore armor. Nazgul however are boarderline being anything at all, and are explicity stated as being immune to all swords that are not specifically made to evil undead things. It doesn't matter how magical the sword is, it could sing, play the guitar, give sensual backrubs and prep the Sauna for all the Nazgul cares unless it is explicitly forged to damage them. However the Lich King is more than welcome to try, given what'll happen to Frostmourne "all blades perish" that strike a Nazgul. At minimum Frostmourne will be drained of power. More likely it will shatter as well.

Frostmourne is only effective against the Nazgul if you completely ignore their canon abilities. It could be effective against Sauron, since its a very powerful magical blade, but not against the Nazgul.



Also, wouldn't it be reasonable to say if it's a soul sucking sword, it could suck the nazgul's remainder, and add it's knowledge and skills to the lich king. This is of course assuming LK went toe to toe with them.

However, there are many other types of weapons out there that'll be able to do chaos type damage. Actually, under that assumption, a couple of fel orcs would walk through the nazgul.


...or, not. Instead they'd quail in terror, then watch in horror as their blades shattered out of their hands and they were overcome by the Black Breath, their pathetic souls left out to dry before the fires of the Lidless Eye.



Also, warcraft dragons are not weaker in anyway then the LotR dragons. They are in fact far more powerful. Consider the bronze dragonflight having the ability to go through time. link (http://www.wowwiki.com/Bronze_Dragonflight).

Go back in time? And all that they do with this power is to keep there from being continuity errors. Sounds like time travel is very dangerous and not at all useful in Warcraft to me (which is how it should be IMHO, time travel is just to problematic from a narrative point of view.)

I mean, let's see, they can travel through time and are tasked with halting the Burning Legion? How about traveling through time, stop or divert the Legion early, then come back. Seems like a smart thing to do. But no, far better to weaken the entire species and launch a massive civil war than do anything like that. Let's face it, either time travel isn't all its cracked up to be, or Warcraft dragons are morons.

And I'll still take a dragon capable of reducing entire cities and civilizations to ash. Strikes me as more useful somehow than an ability they can't, or don't, take full advantage of.

Back to my magic items point. LOTR heroes manage some stuff that's, as far as I can tell, every bit as badass as anything somebody in Warcraft or WoW pulls off, but they do it without a half ton of magical gear. Hence my contention that, in some fundamental sense, LOTR heroes are more powerful and self-sufficient. Dump most of the LOTR heroes in the wilderness with a knife, and most of 'em will do just fine. I don't feel that the Warcraftians, as a rule would do that great. LOTR heroes seem to solve the same problems as Warcraft heroes do, they just do it in more clever and subtle ways.

Poison_Fish
2007-12-05, 02:49 PM
Correction: The Game balancing in WCIII gives it a damage type that ignore armor. Nazgul however are boarderline being anything at all, and are explicity stated as being immune to all swords that are not specifically made to evil undead things. It doesn't matter how magical the sword is, it could sing, play the guitar, give sensual backrubs and prep the Sauna for all the Nazgul cares unless it is explicitly forged to damage them. However the Lich King is more than welcome to try, given what'll happen to Frostmourne "all blades perish" that strike a Nazgul. At minimum Frostmourne will be drained of power. More likely it will shatter as well.

Frostmourne is only effective against the Nazgul if you completely ignore their canon abilities. It could be effective against Sauron, since its a very powerful magical blade, but not against the Nazgul.

...or, not. Instead they'd quail in terror, then watch in horror as their blades shattered out of their hands and they were overcome by the Black Breath, their pathetic souls left out to dry before the fires of the Lidless Eye.

So, your saying a sword that rips apart space time would be entirely useless against them, so as long as it's a sword and doesn't specifically use anti-undead abilities?

Ok, I use a pole axe. That's not a sword. Let's not make statements like that, please.

So, if I opened up a black hole on the Nazgul, they'd be immune to it because it isn't an anti-undead black hole?

Granted, that wouldn't show up in this argument, but I'm just wondering how much the Nazgul really have going for them here. Or rather, I seriously doubt they are that immune.

Actually, a better warcraft comparison. Simply banish them. Their otherworldly, ghostly, etc. Shackle/banish/random other abilities will just as easily take care of them.


Go back in time? And all that they do with this power is to keep there from being continuity errors. Sounds like time travel is very dangerous and not at all useful in Warcraft to me (which is how it should be IMHO, time travel is just to problematic from a narrative point of view.)

I mean, let's see, they can travel through time and are tasked with halting the Burning Legion? How about traveling through time, stop or divert the Legion early, then come back. Seems like a smart thing to do. But no, far better to weaken the entire species and launch a massive civil war than do anything like that. Let's face it, either time travel isn't all its cracked up to be, or Warcraft dragons are morons.

And I'll still take a dragon capable of reducing entire cities and civilizations to ash. Strikes me as more useful somehow than an ability they can't, or don't, take full advantage of.

Yawn, Warty, you still prove nothing about warcraft dragons being weaker. They too, level civilizations and can cause world changing events. So, your comparing oranges to slightly aged oranges.

Bago!!!
2007-12-05, 02:50 PM
Poison Fish took the words out of my mouth.

Dragons in Warcraft are not weaker. Each flight possess awesome power, and do not have soft hides under their body. Plus they all can change shape. And each dragon is capable of casting magic, and they all have dragon spawn minions. Not too mention they are just as powerful as smaug in brute force, if not more powerful. Have anyone read read about the War of the Ancients?

I agree with the sword thing. Besides, was Pipen's sword holy? Or that girl whos name eludes that brought down the WK? I don't believe so.

Heck, I have heard little about specialized magic in LOTR aside form Necromancy.

And the reason magic items are used is because its a heavy magic world, but is it fair to say that they can only accomplish their bad ass abilities with magic items? I think not!

Also, if I recall correctly, the major weakness of the One Ring, is if it is in the hands of another dark being with enoguh power, then that being could be the new dark lord. I know I read that in the books! So LK becomes even more powerful dark lord if he takes the One Ring after he cuts off Sauron's Finger.

One last thing for now, I can keep argueing ont his topic, I can come up with counters to whatever any of you say. Me and my friend spent 6 hours a day, seven days a week argueing which of use would win if we were super powerful war lords in control of hordes. He had fiendish beasts. I had undead armies.

And to Warty, In the war of the ancients, the bronze dragon flight leader was imprissoned in a time loop of some sort by Deathwing and Sargeras. Plus, Deathwing raised mountains before becoming corrupted to prevent the races from warring with each other, but then decided to bring the mountains untop of the races to kill a good many and bring war, plus raising good resources so that people would fight over them. So, can any of Smaug's brothers do that?

WalkingTarget
2007-12-05, 03:02 PM
I agree with the sword thing. Besides, was Pipen's sword holy? Or that girl whos name eludes that brought down the WK? I don't believe so.

The barrow blades that Sam, Merry, and Pippen used (and Frodo before the WK sundered it) were made by the Dunedain during their war against Angmar and were therefore made specifically with the WK and his minions in mind. The most accepted reading of the fight is that Merry's sword broke the protective spells that the WK had used on himself which allowed Eowyn to strike him down.

From what people have said in this thread, dragons from Warcraft seem much more like minor deities than the standard monsters that Tolkien's are. Are they explicitly set up that way? Just curious.

Edit - Oh, I also think that high-magic settings can come up with things that trump the WK's magical protections too. Merry's sword was the most effective weapon within the setting, sure, but I don't doubt that something else could get around them. I don't know Warcraft lore well enough to name specific weapons, but I have ideas from other settings, easily.

Bago!!!
2007-12-05, 03:09 PM
Oh really? Okay fair enough. That makes sense. But that does not make it holy, just magical. And the lcih king's blade could break magic through wards too. It is powered by the lichking and the souls of those fallen to the blade.

Edit: That becomes a battle of one's pure arcane might then. Whos magic is powerful enough to beat the others?


Anyway, yeah the dragons are like minor deities. The most powerful of the dragons (the head of the flights) were gifted by the Titans themselves with awesome power, each power reserved to a specific dragon. The weaker dragons still possess awesome power, enough to level certain kingdoms, but they usually don't do that, since the most evil of them (The black dragon flight) are basically hiding out.