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Athaniar
2007-11-30, 01:13 PM
Forget Sauron and the Lich King, this battle goes divine: the fallen god Melkor/Morgoth Bauglir versus the fallen god Sargeras. Both have all their powers and armies, Morgoth with Sauron, Gothmog, and all that; Sargeras with Kil'jaeden, Archimonde, and the rest of the Legion, including the Scourge and Illidan. The battlefield is the volcanic wasteland typical for demonic villains like them (think Mordor). Share your thoughts!

Edit: To clarify, this is full-scale war, that means both Morgoth and Sargeras themselves, as well as their lieutenants and armies. Both armies have well-defended strongholds to their disposal.

lipe44
2007-11-30, 01:15 PM
Hum... You realise that you took things from different periods and merged them together, right?

For example Sauron only created Mordor after Morgoth was gone...

And we need to estabilish if this is only a battle or its a war, if they have their fortress, etc.

....
2007-11-30, 01:17 PM
I think Sargeras would win.

His army is much larger and more powerful than Morgoth's, and Sargeras has been able to destroy many worlds on his Burning Crusade.

Morgoth was also wounded several times by Fingolfin, who I realize is one of the most powerful elves to ever live, but you just don't cut Sargeras. Ever.

....
2007-11-30, 01:18 PM
Hum... You realise that you took things from different periods and merged them together, right?

For example Sauron only created Mordor after Morgoth was gone....

Yeah, but they had really similar tastes in decor.

OH! And I forgot Ungoliant. She also pwned Morgoth. None of Sargeras' underlings ever had the stones to try that on him.

lipe44
2007-11-30, 01:18 PM
She consumed that trees created by the Valar(Forgot their name but i remenber they had a monstrous power), Ungoliant had the power to consume light and again it was after he lost most of his power creating races.



I think Sargeras would win.

His army is much larger and more powerful than Morgoth's, and Sargeras has been able to destroy many worlds on his Burning Crusade.

Morgoth was also wounded several times by Fingolfin, who I realize is one of the most powerful elves to ever live, but you just don't cut Sargeras. Ever.

Morgoth was wounded by Fingolfin after losing most of his powers creating Balrogs, Dragons, etc.

Ossian
2007-11-30, 02:29 PM
Scenario one: armies and fortresses included. Sargeras wins, though by not so wida a margin. I give him victory for one reason. Blizzard wasn't too worried about oversatement when they said "he lived for milion of years and subdued single handedly all demons that ever existed". Tolkien would give Melkor (including the very long stretch of time of Arda's chant of creation) many thousands of years, and fewer actual battle feats. Moreover, Balrogs, Dragons, Orcs (do they even count against demons) and all the fallen maiar that pledged allegiance to Melkor, including Sauron and even Ungweliante, did not number in the godzillions as per WOW. So, if we stick to actual words, alas Sageras gets the gold medal. Esp. since he has one last advantage. Tolkien made Melkor not immune from fear. That is, Feanor could yell at him and he though thrice before opening the door of Angband and seeing what that elf with fiery eyes and icy sword wanted, as he seemed pretty f****n upset.

Scenario 2: let's consider the two stumbling across each other after a good after dinner at the pub, in a dark alley (or in a volcanic plateau with molten pits, you'd be surprised to know where some people will open pubs...). Let's also consider them at their highest peak of power (that is, Melkor as BBEG but without having lost an ounce of power and Sarg. as x videogame)

M. is considered first and foremost of all the Valar (that is, deities) under Eru Iluvatar. he was in the band that chanted the world into being (although he was a punk among classical musicians).

S. is considered the n1 owned among the titans, that seems to suggest that there is a higher order of beings (let's call them Elder Gods, for f'taghn's sake). Powerful, but sort of limited to fighting demons. Yep, millions. yep, all alone. But still...

Melkor didn't even have to fight them. He just walked up to a bunch of (thousand) fire spirits and said.....: you worms! from now on, I'm the s**t, and you all have to take a whiff. Did I make myself clear?

Sir yes Sir! [on attention]

From now on you rats will call your useless selves demons of morgoth! Understood?

Sir yes sir!

"OH MY MYSELF! I CAN'T HEAR YOU! Shout as if you had them!"

SIR YES SIR!

Walking up to Aulendil, fair and noble maia of Aule

"You! Scumbag! Did you parents have any children that lived?"

Sir, yes! SIR!

"I bet they regret it!! What's you name anyway?"

SIR! AULENDIL SIR!

"B******t! Only sissy elves are called Aulendil! Are you a sissy firstborn?I bet you are! Do you enjoy playing the lute by riverside?"

Sir no Sir!

"Don't lie to me! You look like poetry! From now on you will call yourself Sauron! Perhaps that will confuse the other valar when they look at your rosy complexion and slender fingers!"

Sir, yes sir!

Glances at a balrog standing on attention next to sauron

"AND YOU? What is your excuse?"

E...e...excuse for what sir?

I'm asking the f. questions here demon. Do you understand?

Sir, yes, sir.

Well thank you very much, can I be in charge for a while?

Sir, yes, sir....

Hmmm...I guess the whole post was just an excuse for a ripoff from that movie....I'd honestly do pitch & toss to see who 'd win....

WalkingTarget
2007-11-30, 03:43 PM
Melkor didn't even have to fight them. He just walked up to a bunch of (thousand) fire spirits and said.....: you worms! from now on, I'm the s**t, and you all have to take a whiff. Did I make myself clear?

Sir yes Sir! [on attention]

From now on you rats will call your useless selves demons of morgoth! Understood?

Sir yes sir!

"OH MY MYSELF! I CAN'T HEAR YOU! Shout as if you had them!"

SIR YES SIR!

Walking up to Aulendil, fair and noble maia of Aule

"You! Scumbag! Did you parents have any children that lived?"

Sir, yes! SIR!

"I bet they regret it!! What's you name anyway?"

SIR! AULENDIL SIR!

"B******t! Only sissy elves are called Aulendil! Are you a sissy firstborn?I bet you are! Do you enjoy playing the lute by riverside?"

Sir no Sir!

"Don't lie to me! You look like poetry! From now on you will call yourself Sauron! Perhaps that will confuse the other valar when they look at your rosy complexion and slender fingers!"

Sir, yes sir!

Glances at a balrog standing on attention next to sauron

"AND YOU? What is your excuse?"

E...e...excuse for what sir?

I'm asking the f. questions here demon. Do you understand?

Sir, yes, sir.

Well thank you very much, can I be in charge for a while?

Sir, yes, sir....

You just made my day, Oss.

EvilElitest
2007-11-30, 04:13 PM
I think Sargeras would win.

His army is much larger and more powerful than Morgoth's, and Sargeras has been able to destroy many worlds on his Burning Crusade.

Morgoth was also wounded several times by Fingolfin, who I realize is one of the most powerful elves to ever live, but you just don't cut Sargeras. Ever.

But that was when Morgoth was at his weakest state ever, and even then he won against an elven demi god
Morgoth has greater raw power, Gothmog has the elite barogs, and Sauron is smarter
from,
EE
Edit- Ozz just showed why Morgoth would win, for that speech alone

Saithis Bladewing
2007-11-30, 04:16 PM
Tip top shape in a one-on-one? I'm not really sure, though my love of Tolkien makes me lean slightly in Melkor's favour. Both are incredibly powerful divine beings, and Morgoth was still more or less unbeatable by anything short of the Valar even after much of his energy was wrapped up in the world itself, and after creating the Dragons and other such nasties.

In a war, I side with the Burning Legion. Tolkien orcs can't stand up to Warcraft Demons.

Dervag
2007-11-30, 04:27 PM
I think Sargeras would win.

His army is much larger and more powerful than Morgoth's, and Sargeras has been able to destroy many worlds on his Burning Crusade.

Morgoth was also wounded several times by Fingolfin, who I realize is one of the most powerful elves to ever live, but you just don't cut Sargeras. Ever.Sargeras, or at least a physical avatar thereof, was utterly defeated in combat by assorted dragons and a powerful wizard in the Warcraft setting.

Rutee
2007-11-30, 04:54 PM
Sargeras, or at least a physical avatar thereof, was utterly defeated in combat by assorted dragons and a powerful wizard in the Warcraft setting.

If I'm not completely misrememberring, those Dragons were the Dragonflight Leaders (Imbued with the powers of Titans) and Aegwynn, the Guardian of Tirisfal; Said Guardian is basically 8 of the age's greatest archmages put together, as the Council empowers its Guardian. You seem to be underrating them just a teeny bit.

I should also point out that the Titans were indeed deities in their own right; Further, the Burning Crusade is well up to the task of slaying deities; I think 6 or 7 of Azeroth's deities fell fighting their first, more powerful, invasion, and the Demigod Cenarius gets killed by demon-empowerred Orcs.

I'm pretty sure we're talking about generally even fellas.

EvilElitest
2007-11-30, 05:05 PM
If I'm not completely misrememberring, those Dragons were the Dragonflight Leaders (Imbued with the powers of Titans) and Aegwynn, the Guardian of Tirisfal; Said Guardian is basically 8 of the age's greatest archmages put together, as the Council empowers its Guardian. You seem to be underrating them just a teeny bit.

I should also point out that the Titans were indeed deities in their own right; Further, the Burning Crusade is well up to the task of slaying deities; I think 6 or 7 of Azeroth's deities fell fighting their first, more powerful, invasion, and the Demigod Cenarius gets killed by demon-empowerred Orcs.

I'm pretty sure we're talking about generally even fellas.

nit pick, the burning legion killed most of Azeroth's demi gods, only one or two gods, after massive losses
But this is a really even match, however i just want to point something out
1. If morgoth is at full power, and has his entire army plus Sauron's then can't he take Sauron's ring (sauron is an acually loyal servent, he won't mind) to perserve his power, then create a new army from scratch along with his current one, and his powers will not be depleted, while Sauron is creating another army at the same time.
And both Melkar and Sauron can corrupt enemies
Now if only Gannon got involved

from,
EE

Chronos
2007-11-30, 05:20 PM
Melkor (not yet called Morgoth at that time), at the height of his power, was literally the most powerful being in all of Creation (which makes him the second-most powerful being in existance). So if we're comparing the two at the heights of their powers, then Melkor wins. But by the time that most of Tolkien's stories take place, Morgoth had already squandered a great deal of his power, and was actually pretty pathetic (as divine beings go, at least). So at some later time, it could easily favor Sargaras.

Of course, there's another possibility that we should consider, namely that Sargaras and Melkor are actually just two different names for the same entity. I actually think this is somewhat likely, but it renders the question moot.


1. If morgoth is at full power, and has his entire army plus Sauron's then can't he take Sauron's ring (sauron is an acually loyal servent, he won't mind) to perserve his power,The One Ring is completely, utterly irrelevant to a being of Morgoth's scale. Morgoth, like Sauron after him, invested a great portion of his power and malice into a physical object, but when Morgoth did so, the physical object he used wasn't just some bit of bling, it was the entire World.

Rutee
2007-11-30, 05:21 PM
Heavy losses in grunts, yes; The only 'hero unit', as it were, that they lost from their own forces was Hakkar the Houndmaster. I mean, their corrupted puppet, Azshara, lost some of her top people, but of the Burning Legion itself, only Hakkar got whacked.

My point was more "Seriously, guys, this isn't "Lolz LotR wins" like Sauron vs. Voldy was; We're talking about people on the same plane, power-wise.

puppyavenger
2007-11-30, 05:47 PM
I find it quite simple, melkor created dragons
dragons beat Sargy
Melkor beats Sarg

EvilElitest
2007-11-30, 05:51 PM
The One Ring is completely, utterly irrelevant to a being of Morgoth's scale. Morgoth, like Sauron after him, invested a great portion of his power and malice into a physical object, but when Morgoth did so, the physical object he used wasn't just some bit of bling, it was the entire World
The one Ring Allows divine being to perserve and enhance their power, thus Morgoth wouldn't lose his power even after creating more creature. Should the ring be destroyed, then only Sauron is screwed, not morgoth.
from,
EE

skyclad
2007-12-01, 03:46 PM
The one Ring Allows divine being to perserve and enhance their power, thus Morgoth wouldn't lose his power even after creating more creature. Should the ring be destroyed, then only Sauron is screwed, not morgoth.
from,
EE

What? Where did you get that? Anyway Morgoth was defeated a long time before sauron made the ring.

TheElfLord
2007-12-01, 04:06 PM
Morgoth was also wounded several times by Fingolfin, who I realize is one of the most powerful elves to ever live, but you just don't cut Sargeras. Ever.

I may be remembering this wrong, but doesn't the orc warrior that gets sucked back in time during the War of the Ancients wound Sargeras after he goes through the portal?

I would call this an even match, because basically, they are the same being. Sargeras is Morgoth taken and altered to fit the War Craft Universe. And they both harken back to Satan as their ultimate insperation.

Dervag
2007-12-01, 04:26 PM
If I'm not completely misrememberring, those Dragons were the Dragonflight Leaders (Imbued with the powers of Titans) and Aegwynn, the Guardian of Tirisfal; Said Guardian is basically 8 of the age's greatest archmages put together, as the Council empowers its Guardian. You seem to be underrating them just a teeny bit.What I'm saying is that the powerful entities of Azeroth, in a combined effort, were able to defeat his physical embodiment in combat.

This suggests that Sargeras is not strictly invincible, and that the powerful entities of Tolkein's universe (such as Morgoth) might pose a major challenge to him.


I should also point out that the Titans were indeed deities in their own right; Further, the Burning Crusade is well up to the task of slaying deities; I think 6 or 7 of Azeroth's deities fell fighting their first, more powerful, invasion, and the Demigod Cenarius gets killed by demon-empowerred Orcs.On the other hand, it's not clear that Sargeras possesses more personal power than all his troops combined. He possesses sufficient power to defeat any one of them, or any probable combination of them, but all of them? We don't really know.


I'm pretty sure we're talking about generally even fellas.Oh, I believe it. What I'm saying is that both Sargeras and Morgoth were defeated by physical force at one or more times.


Melkor (not yet called Morgoth at that time), at the height of his power, was literally the most powerful being in all of Creation (which makes him the second-most powerful being in existance). So if we're comparing the two at the heights of their powers, then Melkor wins.Sargeras was also arguably the second-most powerful being in Creation at the height of his powers.


Heavy losses in grunts, yes; The only 'hero unit', as it were, that they lost from their own forces was Hakkar the Houndmaster. I mean, their corrupted puppet, Azshara, lost some of her top people, but of the Burning Legion itself, only Hakkar got whacked.On the other hand, the Burning Legion sent lots and lots of grunts and only a few heroes- the grunts presumably represented a large fraction, if not a majority, of the total power of the Legion's forces on Azeroth. As is the case in Warcraft III, where even though hero units are very powerful, they are not a majority of the power of the armies involved in the conflict and could often be defeated if fighting alone.


I would call this an even match, because basically, they are the same being. Sargeras is Morgoth taken and altered to fit the War Craft Universe. And they both harken back to Satan as their ultimate insperation.Seconded.

Rutee
2007-12-01, 05:26 PM
This suggests that Sargeras is not strictly invincible, and that the powerful entities of Tolkein's universe (such as Morgoth) might pose a major challenge to him.
Oh. Then yes. I figured Sargeras' non-invincibility was taken for granted, so I didn't realize that's all you were establishing.



On the other hand, it's not clear that Sargeras possesses more personal power than all his troops combined. He possesses sufficient power to defeat any one of them, or any probable combination of them, but all of them? We don't really know.

That's a toughy. It is known that he sealed his starting army up himself, since he's the one who freed them from their dimensional exile or whatever it was, but I doubt he had to take them all on at once... I imagine he could be beaten if they all teamed up against him though, simply since it seems more 'realistic'. No real evidence either way.


On the other hand, the Burning Legion sent lots and lots of grunts and only a few heroes- the grunts presumably represented a large fraction, if not a majority, of the total power of the Legion's forces on Azeroth. As is the case in Warcraft III, where even though hero units are very powerful, they are not a majority of the power of the armies involved in the conflict and could often be defeated if fighting alone.
True enough. I think Heroic Sacrifice is the method of several of the God kills the Legion scored in the War of the Ancients.. But then, the Legion does also have a whole friggin' lot of Grunts. It seems to be a near limitless number, with the caveat that one must maintain portals to keep supplying them.


I would call this an even match, because basically, they are the same being. Sargeras is Morgoth taken and altered to fit the War Craft Universe. And they both harken back to Satan as their ultimate insperation.
Snicker. Mayhaps this is the correct interpretation.

Dervag
2007-12-01, 07:41 PM
That's a toughy. It is known that he sealed his starting army up himself, since he's the one who freed them from their dimensional exile or whatever it was, but I doubt he had to take them all on at once... I imagine he could be beaten if they all teamed up against him though, simply since it seems more 'realistic'. No real evidence either way.Right. So the fact that the Burning Legion could accomplish a task, or that a portion of the Legion could accomplish the task with only a few casualties among the powerful demons that make up its 'officer corps', is not surprising.

The Legion is a very large and powerful army, organized for the purpose of overrunning planets and conquering them. When it hits a planet like Azeroth at a time when that planet is not especially militarized (as would have been the case in the War of the Ancients), I'd expect something like this to happen:

The powerful beings of Azeroth would have to take a much more active and aggressive role in the fighting than the powerful leaders of the Legion, because the Legion has a vast supply of reserve troops and Azeroth does/did not. And it is very clear that in Warcraft, 'mere mortal' warriors can take down even extremely powerful beings, as Grom Hellscream killed Mannoroth. So the deities of Azeroth would be more likely to die in the battle than the 'deities' of the Burning Legion, even assuming that they were entities of equal power.

Bago!!!
2007-12-05, 05:26 PM
Sargeras wins. He is the *brother* of the single most powerful titan in exsistance, took on demons all by himself, managed to eat who knows how many worlds. And if I am correct, he has been around for ages.

Even Malfurion almost succumbed to the sheer power of manipulation that he possessed, someone who is not evil. Yes, Sargeras possess the power of manipulation as effective, if not more so, than Morgoth. It can work on all beings unless they have a exceptional focus and will power. And Sargeras is already as evil and corrupted as possible.

And the dragons never confronted Sargeras face too face. He only actuelly fought on Azeroth while fighting Aegwynn, who defeated because he allowed her too.

Edit: Whoops! I said son! He was actuelly the brother of the most powerful Titan.

EvilElitest
2007-12-05, 06:30 PM
Sargeras wins. He is the *brother* of the single most powerful titan in exsistance, took on demons all by himself, managed to eat who knows how many worlds. And if I am correct, he has been around for ages.

Even Malfurion almost succumbed to the sheer power of manipulation that he possessed, someone who is not evil. Yes, Sargeras possess the power of manipulation as effective, if not more so, than Morgoth. It can work on all beings unless they have a exceptional focus and will power. And Sargeras is already as evil and corrupted as possible.

And the dragons never confronted Sargeras face too face. He only actuelly fought on Azeroth while fighting Aegwynn, who defeated because he allowed her too.

Edit: Whoops! I said son! He was actuelly the brother of the most powerful Titan.
And morgoth was the single most powerful Valar on earth, creating all evil in the world
Sargarous was just corrupted by evil
from,
EE

Poison_Fish
2007-12-05, 08:22 PM
I'm ok with potentially calling this even, in the pub situation.

But a full scale battle? The burning legion wins. This isn't one world, nor one galaxy we are talking here...

EvilElitest
2007-12-05, 10:47 PM
I'm ok with potentially calling this even, in the pub situation.

But a full scale battle? The burning legion wins. This isn't one world, nor one galaxy we are talking here...

hate to admit it, but she has a point

However, worht noting, Malar at full power has massive control over creation
from
EE

Fri
2007-12-06, 12:07 AM
I would call this an even match, because basically, they are the same being. Sargeras is Morgoth taken and altered to fit the War Craft Universe. And they both harken back to Satan as their ultimate insperation.

I guess Elflord had won this thread. The sheer 'make-sense-ness' of it is outstanding. And why I never thought it that way before.