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Kurtulmak
2007-12-01, 03:38 AM
Okay, so, everyone on this board pretty much agrees that wizards are easily the most powerful class around. They pretty much exude buttkicking. And everyone's more than likely heard their fair share of stories with dark wizards and evil warlocks and necromancers and the like. Simply put, wizards make great villains.

SO. A few questions, from an aspiring DM:
What are some good ways to show an evil wizard is powerful, without instantly TPKing the party?
In addition, what're some interesting traits you've seen in said villainy wizards? Any memorable lairs or character quirks?

I am shamelessly fishing for ideas here. So, any help is appreciated!

leperkhaun
2007-12-01, 03:58 AM
hmmmm, i would recomend reading the FR book series The Haunted Lands by author Richard Lee Byers, the first book is Unclean, the other books arnt out yet.

its about how the Thayen lich Sazz'Tam (sp) is trying to take over.

1) Wizards are smart (at least the good ones are) - You're BBEG wizard isnt going to go into a situation where they dont have an escape plan. They thourghly plan what they are doing.

2) Alot work behind the scenes - most of the wizards who are a threat dont walk in throwing fireballs and dominating everything. Most infact try to do as little of the dirty work as possible. Setting up others to do it, and others to take the fall if something is found out.

3) Hints of Power - Did the party follow said wizard to the Tomb of Horrors only to find out the wizard walk through the place like it wasnt even a challange. Was the wizard able to influence major change or descisions of people or events that one person shouldnt be able to (ex getting two friendly countries to start a war with each other?)

4) How did he do that? - Did the wizard use some big ole spell that just made people go....how the heck did he do that (SPOILER FROM THE BOOK - Sazz is the head of necromany of thay, each school of magic is lead by a powerfull specialist in that school, Sazz cast a spell where an illusion appeared at different places in a city and each image interacted with the crowed by answering questions or talking about specifics, the head of the other schools couldnt figure out how he was able to do it)

5) Powerfull Allies - Does he have powerfull allies, more important, are said allies afraid of him....

SofS
2007-12-01, 04:00 AM
A good way to show evil magical might without straight-up murdering PCs is to come up with some creative curses. Do you have the Book of Vile Darkness? It has some guidelines on how to expand the Bestow Curse spells into interesting territory. Of course, if this wizard can cast some form of Wish, the sky is the limit.

The important thing here is creativity. A powerful wizard is way smart, right? An evil wizard has little reason not to kill his opponents, right? Why would a powerful evil wizard not just deadify everyone that loked at him funny?

One answer is to say that the evil wizard is, frankly, sadistic and hubristic. Why master the ability to bend the laws of the universe in order to just kill someone you hate (and why wouldn't you hate some jerks trying to stop your good times?) when you could turn their lives into utter misery? People will remember the guy who made his enemies' hearts stop whenever they came near him, but they'll never, ever forget the fellow who sentenced the only people brave enough to face him to walk the earth forever in the shells of mindless corpses. People can be brave enough to face death, but can they face their children becoming afflicted with leprosy? Can they face their boyfriend or husband trying to kill them for no reason, sobbing out apologies as they stab wildly with kitchen knives towards their lover?

So yeah, evil wizards can be pretty huge jerks. Sorry if that's not what you wanted.

Swordguy
2007-12-01, 05:08 AM
Blatantly obvious scrying. Remember the little floating Sith droids in Episode I? Yeah, basically lots of those things roaming about the wizard's lair and way outside around the town. The locals, obviously, know what these are and aren't about to take action against them - though they'll "helpfully" let the PCs know what they are and what they do and the fact that the orbs are totally harmless and the next best thing to indestructable. Once the PCs are spotted (and they WILL get spotted), they get followed by these things everywhere they go. Not only is there no privacy, but it becomes obvious that the wizard knows they're here, and they no longer have any conceivable element of surprise. For even better fun, have one of the orbs drop a summon or two in front of the PCs so the wizard can get a handle on their abilities.

Every single time I've done this, the PCs turn around and leave. it gets them REALLY paranoid when there's a miniature crystal ball hovering over their shoulder, observing and transmitting everything they say and do back to the guy they're there to kill.

kme
2007-12-01, 05:28 AM
You can always make sure that PCs hear the stories of wizard's great evil deeds.

puppyavenger
2007-12-01, 08:30 AM
You can always make sure that PCs hear the stories of wizard's great evil deeds.

I'd say if the wizzard is smart, then he will try to apear kindly and charitible as to be loved by the populice.

J.Gellert
2007-12-01, 08:45 AM
What are some good ways to show an evil wizard is powerful, without instantly TPKing the party?

Have the party confront the wizard together with a number of allies, then the wizard can just bring hellfire down on the NPCs. The players miraculously survive, and will know him as a powerful individual.

Alternatively they can hear stories of his accomplishments, or, if you want to make it more interactive, they could scry/dreamwalk/flashback any scene where he commits a great evil act. Or witness the results first hand - like walking through a place just destroyed by the bad guy.

These are not wizard-specific and are good for any villain.

Ramos
2007-12-01, 08:46 AM
A big red lidless eye wreathed in fire following the PCs around and whenever the PCs try to hide/sneak/go invisible/sleight of hand there is a booming voice saying things like "YOU CANNOT HIDE" and "I SEE".

(that's actually possible with a permanent remote viewing Epic Spell-I once did it too)

Blanks
2007-12-01, 09:19 AM
I have always found that players appriciate the small details.

Have him do some minor stuff, which makes them wonder, how did he do that? Then when they think about it it becomes apparent to them that he could only do that by being really badass :)

Bad example that i used once:
(This was in 2E before deflect arrow was a level 2 skill...)
Orc chief PC rides towards village
Old dude with pitchfork gets in the way
Dude: leave
Orc pc to DM: Does he look special?
DM: he got a pitchfork, but nothing special...
Orc pc to henchman: Shoot him
DM: The bolt flies towards him and at the last moment he slaps it away with the pitchfork...
Dude: leave
Player: Did he just slap away the arrow???
Orc PC to army: We are going around, they get to live


:D

nerulean
2007-12-01, 10:20 AM
There are plenty of crippling things without permanent durations, or things that you can drop on one or two members of the party and wait for the rest to get rid of it. If your wizard feebleminds all the casters and leaves the barbarian to get them back to the cleric for healing, he's going to be remembered as pretty damn scary, and likewise if he polymorphs everyone into frogs and lets them hop off home in disgrace. Humiliation is a much better punishment than killing, and is a better demonstration of power, even if not killing the PCs quickly is a violation of the evil overlord list.

Ganurath
2007-12-01, 10:50 AM
I've always been fond of the idea of the puppetmaster wizard who, when evil, makes the PCs pawns in his plans. Sure, they manage to wipe out his mercenary spies in the Theocracy of St. Cuthbert... but guess who's going to replace the court mage when investigations reveal "evidence" of illegal practices? He'd be able to make all sorts of plots abroad, all without fear of reprisal as his machinations all, arguably, help the Theocracy by hurting its enemies. Can anyone think of a more nefarious villian than a cross between Kubota and Dominic Deegan?

psychoticbarber
2007-12-01, 10:59 AM
There are plenty of crippling things without permanent durations, or things that you can drop on one or two members of the party and wait for the rest to get rid of it. If your wizard feebleminds all the casters and leaves the barbarian to get them back to the cleric for healing, he's going to be remembered as pretty damn scary, and likewise if he polymorphs everyone into frogs and lets them hop off home in disgrace. Humiliation is a much better punishment than killing, and is a better demonstration of power, even if not killing the PCs quickly is a violation of the evil overlord list.

I wholeheartedly endorse this message.

Sadly I don't really have anything to add at this time.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-12-01, 11:17 AM
Disintegration Finesse from Lords of Madness. Sure he has disintegration...but when he uses it to selectively pick off PC's legs, arms, eyes, or equipment INSTEAD of outright killing and murdering with it. Have him laugh manically will it happens too. Trust me, no PC wants to go up against the guy who melted off his arms and legs the last time they fought ever again. Especially if he can do that to a whole bunch of PCs. (Smart players will catch that he just cast that spell a whole crap load of times and doesn't seem like he's going to stop anytime soon.)

Tyrmatt
2007-12-01, 11:21 AM
I tried a while back to make a lich-wizard who wasn't necessarily evil by nature. As he aged he was a relatively neutral guy. Did some research, nothing adventury so to speak.
Then his wife became gravely ill. It broke him a little. His wife was everything to him, the most important thing in all the world. He would pay any price to keep her alive and safe. So he committed horrible acts of necromancy, always searching for a way to restore her. For the sake of drama her disease was incurable by divine magics (short of Miracle, but most wizards aren't renknowned for their devotion). As such as he felt his own natural life begin to ebb away he turned to the dark art of becoming a lich in order to give him more time to save his wife.
The very first meeting the players would have had with him was at the end of their first real quest. The DMPC who was accompanying them as a sort've tutor (we were all newbies) would've been where he appeared after the climactic battle with the kobold leader and zombified them all with a mere gesture. Then the DMPC was to charge him and try to stop him. In seconds, he would've perhaps force-caged the party and annhilated/zombified her as well. All in a matter of seconds. Then he would've taken his new undead away and vanished for the time being.
Later fights involved a lair of his where people (most likely children) would be suspended in crystals as he drained their theoretically longer life force into an artefact.
There was going to be a lot of backstory to discover about this wizard as well about how he was once a good man and I was going to leave it up to the PC's whether to try and find a way to "save" him or show him no mercy whatsoever. A quirk of his was his wife-in-stasis of some sort was often enshrined in his lairs and should the PCs attack or try to damage her in any way, he would immediately drop whatever he was doing and without any regard for safety or his own wellbeing stand between the attacker or spell and do his best to intercept it until he could escape. Of course at these points he was always far stronger than the PCs and thus could often effortlessly bat away whatever mojo was being sent his way.
I felt his desperation made him more powerful to the players as he was willing to go even further than most evil guys would not have had the patience or lack of self preservation to achieve his goals.

PsyBlade
2007-12-01, 11:51 AM
My only tidbit is to have a female wizard w/ a decent cha score. Dump str, above avg dex, avg or better con, and wis can be anything (though if good then her will saves will be better). She'll look powerful by description alone. That's all I can actually give at this time.

puppyavenger
2007-12-01, 11:55 AM
Then his wife became gravely ill. It broke him a little. His wife was everything to him, the most important thing in all the world. He would pay any price to keep her alive and safe. So he committed horrible acts of necromancy, always searching for a way to restore her. For the sake of drama her disease was incurable by divine magics (short of Miracle, but most wizards aren't renknowned for their devotion). As such as he felt his own natural life begin to ebb away he turned to the dark art of becoming a lich in order to give him more time to save his wife.
.

um true ressurection, also coudn't wish do it too?

Ramos
2007-12-01, 12:05 PM
Disintegration Finesse from Lords of Madness. Sure he has disintegration...but when he uses it to selectively pick off PC's legs, arms, eyes, or equipment INSTEAD of outright killing and murdering with it. Have him laugh manically will it happens too. Trust me, no PC wants to go up against the guy who melted off his arms and legs the last time they fought ever again. Especially if he can do that to a whole bunch of PCs. (Smart players will catch that he just cast that spell a whole crap load of times and doesn't seem like he's going to stop anytime soon.)

That reminds me the scene from the (crappy) DnD movie 2 where the Lich hold-persons the fighter and says:
"I have a new spell that can disintegrate one limb at a time"

Lyinginbedmon
2007-12-01, 01:39 PM
One of my players just defeated a CR 9 encounter with a 9th level character, with Minor Image and Blade Barrier and 3 hit points remaining from it's 3 friends.

That's the kind of stuff you want a Wizard villain to be capable of thinking out.

kme
2007-12-01, 03:42 PM
I just remembered, Rich's article (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/rTKEivnsYuZrh94H1Sn.html) for creating villains may be of help.

Dervag
2007-12-01, 04:18 PM
Okay, so, everyone on this board pretty much agrees that wizards are easily the most powerful class around. They pretty much exude buttkicking. And everyone's more than likely heard their fair share of stories with dark wizards and evil warlocks and necromancers and the like. Simply put, wizards make great villains.

SO. A few questions, from an aspiring DM:
What are some good ways to show an evil wizard is powerful, without instantly TPKing the party?Create some monster or party of NPCs that the heroes know is of power roughly equal to their own (say, by having them fight one).

Then have the evil wizard utterly defeat, and indeed annihilate, this party or one or more of those monsters. If the wizard can easily demolish a dozen mind flayers when the heroes are hard pressed to defeat one, it will establish their buttkickery beyond all shadow of a doubt.

dyslexicfaser
2007-12-01, 05:09 PM
The problem with having high level wizards BBEGs is that, statistically, they're supposed to be smarter than anyone who has been alive - ever. In the real world, anyway.

The trick, in my opinion, is to make him a schemer that would have Machiavelli turn green with envy. He doesn't fight the PCs - he uses them to further his schemes.

Suppose the PCs quest to find some amazingly powerful artifact that is supposed to be able to deal with this guy. Except that he's placed contingencies for just such an occurance, because he knew about their quest ahead of time. Perhaps he even sent them on it through an intermediary. Then he takes it away from them with ease and uses their artifact to deal with his actual enemies, people who could realistically stop him. I guarantee it'll leave a bad taste in your PCs mouths when it's their mistake that he's using to kill off their allies.

Falconer
2007-12-01, 05:20 PM
Building off of Dervag's idea, perhaps the PC's are being attacked by something that they can't defeat (half a dozen reasonably strong monsters, rival adventuring party, super-bandits, etc.). This threat is guarding one of your evil wizard's smaller objectives, so he actually steps in and kills the attackers pretty easily, saving the PC's. He grabs the macguffin, bids the PC's good day, and then teleports off.

I hope this helps in terms of demonstrating power, and may help with the BBEG's personality, depending on what he says (if anything). Intended as sort of a "but if you get in my way, I'll kill you" mindset.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-12-01, 05:32 PM
The problem with having high level wizards BBEGs is that, statistically, they're supposed to be smarter than anyone who has been alive - ever. In the real world, anyway.

The trick, in my opinion, is to make him a schemer that would have Machiavelli turn green with envy. He doesn't fight the PCs - he uses them to further his schemes.

True, but remember that the BBEG should be challenged by the Intelligence of the party's own casters, and thus they should stand a decent chance of unraveling his schemes if they look at the right clues. They should be able to play the Holmes to the BBEG's Moriarty.

Also, don't make the BBEG too powerful and too prone to noticing the PCs. There's a fine line between "damn, we need to improve to beat this guy" and "damn, there's no way we can beat this guy, let's give up and go home". A previous campaign ground to a halt when the BBEG showed his power by destroying everything the PCs worked for,framing them as criminals, and driving them into the sewers. The players were not only demoralized, but they had no idea what they could do next that wouldn't result in failure.

That worked a little too well; the GM had to give them a whiplashing/peptalk to keep the PCs from fleeing & hiding and their players from walking off the campaign.

ReproMan
2007-12-01, 06:31 PM
*Mr Rictus walks onto a street and sees a middle-aged couple and their son. Without a word, he pulls out his gun and shoots the parents in the head in front of the kid and continues walking.*

Lackey: What about the kid?
Mr Rictus: Leave 'im. With any luck he'll spend the next ten years training in the East, give me someone interesting to fight as an old man.

Jade_Tarem
2007-12-01, 07:41 PM
Distance, through time and space, can serve as a buffer to the PC's while allowing them to observe the badassery. Perhaps they witness a town under attack at a distance, and arrive at the end of the battle, with the Evil Wizard Guy out of spells but triumphant, and he leaves without checking for more red-shirts to kill. Maybe they don't see the fight at all, and just arrive at a dead town as the last fires are guttering out, with a few mortally injured soldiers or unguided zombies the only animate creatures left, and the wizard's mark all over everything. These are somewhat cliche, but they can work in the beginning.

You can also play "dress up" with spells and special abilities - especially new ones that your more experienced players won't recognize just by the description. Pick a spell of the appropriate power to employ against the party, or within the party's ability to observe, and have it do something completely different with the same mechanics.

Ex: Wail of the Banshee? Instead of screaming, the wizard points at a crowd of people and shreds them with seemingly no effort.

Ex: Dimensional Jumper? Instead of just disappearing and reappearing, the wizard's body transforms into dark energy and zips do his target square, with mocking laughter following the beam of fell magic.

Tyrmatt
2007-12-06, 04:21 PM
um true ressurection, also coudn't wish do it too?

The point was she wasn't dead, so resurrecting her was out, nor was this a meta-gaming speed-a-thon. Also remember that they were relatively close to the end of their natural lives as well. He wanted to be together forever.
As for the use of Wish/Miracle this was well below the party's power levels at the time (intentionally) and even if they were that powerful, I wasn't going to let them destroy a carefully plotted campaign with a "Ok, I rolled a 19, she's fine now, what next?". In fact, the use of Wish is something I despise as it's the catch-all-get-out-of-jail-free spell. My general strategy with players who use Wish is to use it in strange ways that force them to actually have a more satisfying campaign. If they had stated "Restore her life force" I would've drained it out the wisher, advancing him age categories and reducing his attributes. Something like "Let them be together forever" would've resulted in her immediately rising as an all-powerful lich, doubling their trouble.
Frankly, Wish is for sissies. Find an better more plausible solution, other than "Deus Ex Machinia"

As for another tip, take from J K Rowling's book. Have a cult of fanatics who commit atrocities in his name who are not only a challenge at first, but you can have the BBEG carelessly discard/dismember/destroy once they're capable of beating them without much effort.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-06, 04:47 PM
What are some good ways to show an evil wizard is powerful, without instantly TPKing the party?

There have already been a few posters indicating good spells for demoralizing a party without killing them. Negative levels and ability draining spells are good. For extra effect, drain their best stat. How does the barbarian feel now that he has a stregnth of two and the guy floating 30 ft above him in the air is just sniggering to himself.


In addition, what're some interesting traits you've seen in said villainy wizards?

Rich's guide linked above will give you a good sense of how to make a villian memorable. I would suggest a few things to separate them from your typical wizard villian.

1) Unusual villian demeanor. The BBEG doesn't need to be hopenly hostile to everyone all or even most of the time. Openly friendly. An utter ruthless bastard if you aren't on his side but otherwise someone who will send a round of drinks to the adventuring party.

2) An unusual quirk. Like a weird, not particularly scary laugh. Think Ernie from Sesame Street. A strange manner of dress for a big bad evil wizard. Blue silk pants, a green shirt and backpack will get the PC's to remember them more than the usually bellowing black robe. Whatever it is, just make sure it is signature. If the PC's see it or hear it... they know who they are dealing with.

3) Give them friends. Not minions. Friends. People who would die for them not because they have to, or are getting paid, but because the BBEG would do the same for them (or so they think). Even Necromancers want to go have a quiet drink sometimes and zombies aren't exactly the best company.


Any memorable lairs or character quirks?

Well, I'm most fond of my little Silus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55087).

Fiery Diamond
2007-12-06, 04:52 PM
Well, what I like to do is have some reason for them to encounter the villain- perhaps they just fought through a ton of monsters, summons, and devices he set up. When they get to him, he stays back out of reach and mocks them as he casually throws spells around just powerful enough to knock the party down close to zero, but not enough to kill them. Have him act really bored, and if they decide to run, he let's them run because they aren't worth chasing after. You know, Xykon type laid-back badass. Except not actually killing them, just almost killing them.

ShadowyFigure
2007-12-06, 05:04 PM
Well Wizards.... And Evilness. Hmm.

Well I renember one campaign i had a body switching necromancer. Seriosuly I had players get angry every time he body switched to a new more poweful form while losing his previous str, dex, con scores but keeping his 26 Int, 20 Wis and 20 Cha they didn't like him swapping with a dragon as the last part.

mostlyharmful
2007-12-06, 05:35 PM
Non-lethal takedowns... Woot!

dominate, stunning and Paralysis (liches are great at this), Otto's Irressistable (homebrewed to 8 hours, I did this once and that cleric hated hated my BBEG).

noncilant toying with your PCs the first couple of times does wonders to build up an emotional connection with an evil wizard, humiliationa dn degredation for the win.:smallbiggrin:

Runolfr
2007-12-06, 05:49 PM
SO. A few questions, from an aspiring DM:
What are some good ways to show an evil wizard is powerful, without instantly TPKing the party?

He always knows what they're up to. A powerful wizard will have access to scrying spells, and if a party of adventurers starts making a nuisance of themselves, he'll use those spells to monitor their activities and throw obstacles into their path.

He strikes from afar. A powerful wizard has resources that he can use against the party from a distance. He will have spells or magic items that allow him to communicate with allies or mercenaries far from his home base and direct them against his enemies. Wizards can summon and bind fiends to harass their foes.

His servants are dangerous, too. Wizards frequently have item-creation feats, so their agents in the field will often have magic items to use against their enemies.

Basically, imagine that you're a wizard of whatever level you want this villain to be. Look through the spell lists to see what you, as a PC, would do if you found out that a group of NPC characters was doing something to offend you. Be as mean as you like. Have your villain do that.

Yami
2007-12-06, 06:57 PM
Have him teleport the party into a specially designed dungeon in the middle of nowhere. I know theres a baleful teleport spell somewhere. Anyways, fill the place with resetting traps and useless undead mooks. Have him do this to ANYONE who bothers him. Some one manages to bother him twice? Then he pays attention. Heck you could even have a henchman designate to maintain the place.

Have him polymorph his enemies. Nothing too vicious though, just halflings or something equally silly but not debilitating and then summon a grapple monster to torment them, something they can't outrun but can survive through. Have him sit around and watch, with one of those nice sphere of invulerabilty spells up. Fly off when they start to bore him, or don't even stay around to watch.

Dominate your pc's and send them to wreck havoc in the nearest city. Have them attempt to burn down the city watch, and then let the party try to explain to the guards ^_^

Geaes spell is a great way to tell the party thier underpowered. Stun, paralyze and knock them all out and then force them to do your bidding. Huzzah, Evil, cruel, and you get some use out of those pesky adventurers.

One of my favorites is having all your BBEG's minions be dominated good creatures. Nothing says evil like constant good on good fights. Send Blink dogs and hound archons after the party, give them NPC's early on in the campaign, let them grow on the PC's and then send them in as BBEG controlled goons.

Grab useless but fun Metamagic feats and go wild with silly things like Exploding Web spells, because you CAN!

Remeber, fun BBEGs are bored BBEGs.

Konig
2007-12-06, 09:28 PM
The key part to every villain is a good lair. A powerful BBEG puts his lair in the most inconvenient place he can think of, just because he can. The wizard's tower sits in the center of a town. The town and it's occupants have been turned into obsidian. A sense motive (DC 15) of the resulting statuary's poses indicates it was a slow process. Getting to the BBEG in a timely manner might require breaking some of the offending obstacles.

The wizard's tower is situated in a town where the inhabitants have each been ritually slaughtered, in a process that should have taken hours for each inhabitant - tiny writing and runes cover every inch of their skin, and the blood forms a very large magic circle, incorporating the entire town (centering on the wizard's tower). The bodies do not rot, but do attract a large group of very dangerous critters to impede the wizard's foes.

The wizard's lair is set in a town that is actually a dungeon, though the players will not realize it immediately. Space and time have been warped in the town, and attempting to walk straight to the tower inevitably leads the PCs back where they came from, or just out the other end of town. The way through involves finding the correct 'path' (such as right-right-left-then back the way they came) or finding the items (black candles?) that the wizard has used to put the effect in place.
Space isn't the only thing that's warped, and NPCs repeat dialogue (perhaps with eerie differences). It might be a particularly interesting encounter if the PC's encountered a member of their party, dead, or had to fight an crazed version of a party member who has gone mad from a half century spent in the warped space. Time of day might be a key clue in figuring out the right path.
The wizard's lair is on a hunk of rock situated directly above a fearful populace. If he dies, or if he cancels the spell that keeps the rock floating, it might be rather problematic.
The wizard's lair is on the other side of the world. He can reach it by using a magic key on any lock, and then stepping through the opening. He delights in appearing on a regular basis & making a quick retreat.
The wizard's lair is never in the same place. There's a definite and distinct pattern to where it appears and why, but it takes a lot of brainpower to puzzle it out.
The BBEG knows that virtue and goodness is a weakness. Use the PC's own virtues against them Charmed children wade into battle amid the monstrosities who fight on the wizard's behalf. Fireballs, among other things, are out of the PC's arsenal. Enhance the dilemma if the monsters use the children as cover, hostages or projectiles.

Nobody wants to kill kids. What if the BBEG Magic Jar's a child? What if the BBEG Magic Jar's a child, then uses illusion to disguise himself as his regular self?

The wizard employs a large golem in a pivotal battle. The golem has innocents chained across the body and limbs.

The wizard has a key item he doesn't want the PCs to get their hands on. He adopts a new guise and gives it to a powerful and good hearted individual. An old man's dying wish, among other things, would give the individual reason to keep the item close & safe. If the PCs want to get it, they may have to steal it. This gives the wizard's other persona an opportunity to gain the allegiance/debt of the powerful good person, and pit him/her against the PCs.

It's considered evil to kill someone who is helpless and surrendering... so when the PC's break into the BBEG's sanctum, and he surrenders quietly, they're left with a difficult choice.

The BBEG uses the PC's loyalties against them. If their king, religious leader or sponsor asks them (at the BBEG's behest/whim) to take on another mission, or even help the BBEG, what path can they take?
Play it smart. You've got 18+ Int, use it. With enough time to plan, the BBEG should be able to manipulate every situation so it's a win-win for him.

With enough time to plan, the BBEG should be able to set up situations so it's lose-lose for the PC. Don't overuse this, for obvious reasons. Go with the Green Goblin dilemma once in a little while. (Save one or the other).

Do the unexpected. When they expect you to fight, run. When they expect you to run, fight. When they're expecting a puzzle, throw something really massive and angry at them. Keep them off balance until a vital opportunity arises.

Information is power. If the PC's don't protect vital assets, surgically remove them or plan to counter. This can range from useful allies to items. If a PC doesn't protect his spellbook, it shouldn't come as a surprise of the BBEG knows every spell the PC is packing. (Familiars make good spies, for the record).

Allies are essential, a wizard is a one man army, but a few extra bodies never hurt. Succubi aren't a BBEG consort just for fun, they also serve as exceptional assassins & can change shape to adopt the guise of a PC's friend or lover.

Never hurts to be too careful. Always have an escape route handy. Heck, have five.
The PC's discover there's only one person who knows the BBEG's weakness (or the flaw in his master plan). This person turns out to be the BBEG, who has just been conveniently informed that the PC's are after him.

psychoticbarber
2007-12-06, 09:37 PM
@Konig

The problem for me when creating wizard villains is not playing up the intelligence, but rather that I have a hard time not making them too smart for my players.

It takes a great deal of finesse to create an intelligent wizard who is still ready to be bested when the time is right.

Konig
2007-12-06, 09:56 PM
Way I see it, Wizards are nerds who have worked long and hard to get the power to make their fantasies come true. This is their undoing.

There's a reason the archetypical villain has an inflated ego. For one thing, it makes pretty good sense. For another, it lets the writer crank up the villain's power while leaving some glaring weaknesses.

For inspiration, think in terms of serial killers... There's two types:
The methodical serial killer has a goal or logic behind everything he does. While he's more careful, he's all the more vulnerable because he's predictable.
The crazed killer has no logic or reason behind what he does. He's random, which means he's nearly impossible to predict, but he's also more prone to making mistakes or being caught by surprise.

Be outlandish. You can make them seem pretty powerful if you just make up some really 'out there' sort of situations, as with one or three of the situations I listed under 'lairs' in my post above. ie. The BBEG who's created a 'dark mirror' of the prime material is pretty damn powerful, but he's also expended a lot of power & attention for his big plan, so he's more on the PC's level.

Tyrmatt
2007-12-07, 06:37 AM
The key part to every villain is a good lair. A powerful BBEG puts his lair in the most inconvenient place he can think of, just because he can. The wizard's tower sits in the center of a town. The town and it's occupants have been turned into obsidian. A sense motive (DC 15) of the resulting statuary's poses indicates it was a slow process. Getting to the BBEG in a timely manner might require breaking some of the offending obstacles.

The wizard's tower is situated in a town where the inhabitants have each been ritually slaughtered, in a process that should have taken hours for each inhabitant - tiny writing and runes cover every inch of their skin, and the blood forms a very large magic circle, incorporating the entire town (centering on the wizard's tower). The bodies do not rot, but do attract a large group of very dangerous critters to impede the wizard's foes.

The wizard's lair is set in a town that is actually a dungeon, though the players will not realize it immediately. Space and time have been warped in the town, and attempting to walk straight to the tower inevitably leads the PCs back where they came from, or just out the other end of town. The way through involves finding the correct 'path' (such as right-right-left-then back the way they came) or finding the items (black candles?) that the wizard has used to put the effect in place.
Space isn't the only thing that's warped, and NPCs repeat dialogue (perhaps with eerie differences). It might be a particularly interesting encounter if the PC's encountered a member of their party, dead, or had to fight an crazed version of a party member who has gone mad from a half century spent in the warped space. Time of day might be a key clue in figuring out the right path.
The wizard's lair is on a hunk of rock situated directly above a fearful populace. If he dies, or if he cancels the spell that keeps the rock floating, it might be rather problematic.
The wizard's lair is on the other side of the world. He can reach it by using a magic key on any lock, and then stepping through the opening. He delights in appearing on a regular basis & making a quick retreat.
The wizard's lair is never in the same place. There's a definite and distinct pattern to where it appears and why, but it takes a lot of brainpower to puzzle it out.
The BBEG knows that virtue and goodness is a weakness. Use the PC's own virtues against them Charmed children wade into battle amid the monstrosities who fight on the wizard's behalf. Fireballs, among other things, are out of the PC's arsenal. Enhance the dilemma if the monsters use the children as cover, hostages or projectiles.

Nobody wants to kill kids. What if the BBEG Magic Jar's a child? What if the BBEG Magic Jar's a child, then uses illusion to disguise himself as his regular self?

The wizard employs a large golem in a pivotal battle. The golem has innocents chained across the body and limbs.

The wizard has a key item he doesn't want the PCs to get their hands on. He adopts a new guise and gives it to a powerful and good hearted individual. An old man's dying wish, among other things, would give the individual reason to keep the item close & safe. If the PCs want to get it, they may have to steal it. This gives the wizard's other persona an opportunity to gain the allegiance/debt of the powerful good person, and pit him/her against the PCs.

It's considered evil to kill someone who is helpless and surrendering... so when the PC's break into the BBEG's sanctum, and he surrenders quietly, they're left with a difficult choice.

The BBEG uses the PC's loyalties against them. If their king, religious leader or sponsor asks them (at the BBEG's behest/whim) to take on another mission, or even help the BBEG, what path can they take?
Play it smart. You've got 18+ Int, use it. With enough time to plan, the BBEG should be able to manipulate every situation so it's a win-win for him.

With enough time to plan, the BBEG should be able to set up situations so it's lose-lose for the PC. Don't overuse this, for obvious reasons. Go with the Green Goblin dilemma once in a little while. (Save one or the other).

Do the unexpected. When they expect you to fight, run. When they expect you to run, fight. When they're expecting a puzzle, throw something really massive and angry at them. Keep them off balance until a vital opportunity arises.

Information is power. If the PC's don't protect vital assets, surgically remove them or plan to counter. This can range from useful allies to items. If a PC doesn't protect his spellbook, it shouldn't come as a surprise of the BBEG knows every spell the PC is packing. (Familiars make good spies, for the record).

Allies are essential, a wizard is a one man army, but a few extra bodies never hurt. Succubi aren't a BBEG consort just for fun, they also serve as exceptional assassins & can change shape to adopt the guise of a PC's friend or lover.

Never hurts to be too careful. Always have an escape route handy. Heck, have five.
The PC's discover there's only one person who knows the BBEG's weakness (or the flaw in his master plan). This person turns out to be the BBEG, who has just been conveniently informed that the PC's are after him.

That's...that's just....beautiful...
A golem with children strapped to it's limbs? Genius!

Mike_Lemmer
2007-12-07, 07:07 AM
Way I see it, Wizards are nerds who have worked long and hard to get the power to make their fantasies come true. This is their undoing.

Another potential undoing is acting too evil. Take this:

The BBEG knows that virtue and goodness is a weakness.

Not entirely true.

Virtue & goodness are a strength because it gains you allies, even from the strangest places.

Powerful neutral NPCs that the villain pissed off, minions that don't like their master's actions, other villains abhored by your BBEG's actions... make your BBEG bad enough and just about anyone will be willing to side with the PCs against him.

A great example of this is from The Incredibles:Halfway through the movie, Mr. Incredible believes Syndrome's blown up his family. He grabs Mirage (Syndrome's assistant) and threatens to snap her neck. Syndrome dares him to. He hesitates, then releases Mirage, unwilling to kill her. Syndrome mocks him as weak for it.

Mirage: He's not weak, you know.
Syndrome: What?
Mirage: Valuing life is not weakness.
Syndrome: Oh, hey, look, look, if you're talking about what happened in the containment unit, I had everything under control.
Mirage: And disregarding it is not strength.
Syndrome: Look, I called his bluff, sweetheart, that's all. I knew he wouldn't have it in him to actually...
Mirage: [through her teeth] Next time you gamble, bet *your own* life.

That leads to Mirage freeing the heroes & giving them vital details about Syndrome's plans. A great example of a hero's virtue throwing a monkey wrench into the villain's plan.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-12-07, 07:19 AM
The problem for me when creating wizard villains is not playing up the intelligence, but rather that I have a hard time not making them too smart for my players.

Here's a word of advice:

Treat the BBEG as the sole player of a D&D game GMed by a sadistic archon.

Limit his resources. Let him make (and implement) stupid plans. Throw Murphy's Law at him. Have angels, wandering paladins, and other obstacles crop up at the worst times. Catch him off-guard.

Take sending a succubus minion to kill a PC's lover & pose as her to assassinate him. Just letting it succeed because it's a CR 7 demon against a CR 1/3 barmaid isn't any fun. How many ways can it go wrong? My choice: divine intervention, a literal guardian angel. Threatening loved ones is the oldest one in the book; why wouldn't the heavens have countermeasures in place for their best servants?

Triaxx
2007-12-07, 09:06 AM
If you're a big, evil wizard, you have better things to do than keep track of minions, and make items for them. Don't merely gut a city, annihilate it.

Don't be afraid as a DM, to play the BBEG as if he's your character. Use the cheesy tactics. Celerity/Timestop, Polymorph. Beat the PC's down to a few HP, and walk away. Leave them to limp back to the nearest Inn to heal.

Don't forget that you have the freedom to create custom spells. I had a wizard who's entire goal was to reduce the races to scrounging for things to bring to him in exchange for not destroying them. He spent most of his time advancing on a city, where he would then cast 'Greater Desolation'. A custom spell that unleashed arcane energy into the city, breaking buildings into rubble, and turning the entire area into a wild magic field.

Finally defeated when the PC's engaged him a thousand feet over the city of Baldur's Gate. He beat them to within inches of defeat, until the rogue got up close, and drove a dagger into his back. It stuck, and wrapped him in a powerful anti-magic field. He splattered on the landscape. Killed the rogue, but he died a hero. At the end of it, we had two... no three cities left. Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, and something unpronouncable in Kara-Tur. That's a wizard.

Solo
2007-12-07, 10:07 AM
The wizard treats the heroes to cookies and milk.

Yes, the wizard is *so* evil that he can afford to be nice. :smallwink:

Proven_Paradox
2007-12-07, 10:20 AM
If you're willing to cheese it up, go with transmutation/enchantment. The battle opens with the wizard hitting the barbarian with a quickened hideous laughter, and then making the PC's wizard fail a fortitude save for baleful polymorph or flesh to stone. Polymorph Any Object gets suitably absurd as well. Go through each party member and give them some sort of new, useless, embarrassing form until all that's left is the laughing barbarian. Dispel the laughter and inform the barbarian that he should probably get some help for the statue, penguin, and ragdoll that were his allies a minute or so ago.

No one's dead, or even permanently gimped (unless the penguin managed to fail his will save somehow, but even that can be reversed), but they're thoroughly beaten and utterly humiliated.

Drascin
2007-12-07, 02:45 PM
Well, in my campaign I'm using a quori BBEG, who isn't a wiz, but a psion - but the two classes are approximate enough. Some things I've done with him:

- First, the guy is a quori. This means, he cannot access directly to the PCs except through the (relatively easily killable) Inspired bodies, so he has a good enough reason to not intervene continously. However, this also gives him a big advantage - he is virtually unkillable, as traveling to Dal Quor would be more or less suicide. And he gets a great information recon through his ability to see people's dreams, his diverse scryings, and his personal division of the Dreaming Dark. All in all, a schemer, which seems to be the thing you're going for: yeah, if they met face to face, he would slaughter the party, but that is not happening for now. Just random appearances, and his (dangerous) mooks striking every now and then.

- However, he's also a tad unusual in his demeanor. He's immortal and nigh undefeatable, and he knows it - and he is bored as hell. He jokes with the PCs (a very macabre and alien brand of humor, but humor nonetheless), adopts a completely nonchalant attitude (though this is more him trying to "roleplay" than anything... as a quori, his mind would be best described as alien) and, since if things went according to plan, he wouldn't have any competition, he put the PCs on the path to foiling him himself. Of course, this was done through very cryptic clues and mistery quotes - basically, he's treating the PCs as his personal adventure TV production (after slipping a scrying focus into the swordsage's pocket, he doesn't need to concentrate to scry them, so he just chills out and relax in front of the screen) and he consciously avoids the Overlord List "to increase the fun factor". This increases the sense of not being in control on the side of the PCs: they just know this guy has one up on him, and they're trying desperately to turn the balance before even thinking of facing him, since, if now that he's just playing he's owning us, what the hell is he going to do when we force him to get serious? We have to find a way to catch him off-guard! (and this is the main basis of the campaign)

- On top of that, cement his badassness and evilness. An evil guy with a monolgue is standard. An evil guy who monologues from a far away place by possesing an innocent little girl the PCs knew and melts her brain after said possesion is over, turning her into a vegetable, is a tad more hate-able.

shadow_archmagi
2007-12-07, 03:23 PM
Tell, don't show. That is, instead of having your PCs just walk into a room and watch the wizard slaughter, have the PC's walk into a room where he ALREADY slaughtered, with no mention of what specific spells he used. Just a bunch of blackened corpses they recognize as powerful warriors. Preferably powerful warriors you mentioned earlier.


Another fun trick is to put your wizard in an elevator (or equivalent), with a bunch of guards to make sure he doesn't escape. Then have the thing open at the bottom with all the guards already dead and the wizard nonchalantly brushing some soot off his robes.

pendell
2007-12-07, 03:28 PM
Possibilities that spring to mind:

1) The Invisible man.
Don't tell them *anything* about him at all. Just have them fight all these minibosses which, bit by bit, reveal the links to the ultimate BBEG until ... finally .. the Big Reveal.

Make the minibosses a tough challenge that leaves the party down to their few hit points. Then have them discover that the miniboss was just a minion ... and not even the strongest minion ... of someone even greater.

The more you can keep him off screen and undefined, the better. It's the unknown that terrifies people. Once he's known and statted out, he's much easier to defeat. Far better to leave these things unknown till the last minute, giving their terror-filled minds a large canvas to paint upon.

Oh, and you should give them plenty of terror to paint with, of course.


2) Quest failure.
This is actually stolen from the computer game Descent: Freespace. Give the good guys a goal like "protect the major artifact in the castle". Have a really big battle between the good guys and the bad guys. Then, towards the end, the BBEG simply arrives. He is *totally invulnerable* to anything anyone can do. Then he one-shots the defenses, takes the artifact, and leaves.

Do this repeatedly. Have the BBEG show up repeatedly, be totally invulnerable, and thwart their pitiful schemes with little effort. Not only will it make them soil themselves whenever he's around, it will irritate them so much so that when they finally discover His Fatal Weakness, they will gain tremendous satisfaction from fighting a battle that they can actually win!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Triaxx
2007-12-07, 03:49 PM
Unless they give up in disgust after the third failed battle, like I've done. It ends up a case of 'You know what? This isn't fun any more. I'm not going to play this campaign any further.' Then it's either new campaign time, or new DM.

geek_2049
2007-12-07, 03:53 PM
I like the concept of an Arcane Trickster type BBEG.

Projected Image and Simulacrum are excellent ways of letting the players know the BBEg without knowing him. Dream could befuddle the players, send them a Dream of something happening elsewhere, like NPCs they encountered who are under attack, that they are not assisting b/c they are busy chasing after the AT (who orchastrated the whole thing). If you want to get extra tricky you could have the sim AT leading the attack on the NPCs. Ray of Frost to take out a badass NPC.

Battlefield control spells and summons.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-07, 06:09 PM
Well, one way I introduced a villian blackguard is a great way to introduce a powerful wizard. Have the party tangle and barely win against a minion. The party in question had a knockdown dragout fight against an armored skeleton that kicked the crap out of the party and only was killed because they all worked together very well...two party members down below 0, and most wounded. All because they ran into the skeletal minion of a high level blackguard/fallen paladin that had been sent to find an item while the master was otherwise occupied with other matters.

Summoned creatures sent to perform tasks, familiars on the prowl, high level illusions...all great ways to send a message...hey, I have lots of power and the only reason I don't annihilate you, is because I don't want to waste a spell right now and I am a busy wizard...but if you keep interfering, I will be forced to put you on the 'to do' list.

Another great way to show how evil people are and powerful...are kids and other innocents under compulsion/geas/coersion and polymorphed into monsters to accomplish a task for the mage. An extended duration spell that transforms a young boy into a large dragon or a hill giant while under compulsion to do something or told to attack a town/whatever or his family dies (gonna die anyways, but he doesn't need to know)...

How will the PC's react when the ogre is sobbing and begging for forgiveness while he kills people and fights the players...only to find the creature turn into a 10yo boy when slain. Maybe the first couple are just coerced/charmed...but later on a geas would be amusing...those can't just be dispelled...

pendell
2007-12-07, 07:09 PM
Unless they give up in disgust after the third failed battle, like I've done. It ends up a case of 'You know what? This isn't fun any more. I'm not going to play this campaign any further.' Then it's either new campaign time, or new DM.

Well, yes. Obviously the GM/DM has to give the PCs some victories, perhaps even some major ones, interspersed with the defeats. This can be accomplished by creating other powerful forces so that the BBEG can be off destroying them with a snap of her fingers while the good guys are A) beating the tough, but by no means unbeatable, minions and minibosses and B) performing quests to gather the information necessary to Throw the Macguffin in the Fire, or find the six different crystal spheres, or rescue the princess or what not that will drop the BBEG's plot shield and permit a winnable engagement.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Konig
2007-12-07, 10:01 PM
I gotta agree with the "Tell, don't show" bit. Have the PC's deal with the aftermath, and as they progress through the setting, they get closer and closer to dealing with the BBEG.

To make a BBEG suitably intelligent without being ridiculously difficult... make the players think. See my examples earlier in the thread - if every situation the BBEG throws at them has them improvising and problem solving, they'll quickly start to respect (and fear) his plots.
Turn a mountain into a colossal golem-dungeon, which the PC's have to climb/penetrate before it reaches a city. (I imagine it makes a great testament/reminder of how awesome the PC's are, if there's a 500-meter golem left standing over a town, where it was stopped by the PC's just before it could smash).
The PC's are in town, going about their business when the BBEG shows up, charging them with a crime. They're the ones on the defensive and have to prove they didn't do the things the BBEG said. If they just attack him, they only dig their graves.
The BBEG leads the fight to an antechamber, where there are canvas sacks hanging from the ceiling. Some have skeins of oil or acid in them. Others have monsters, or victims (even a captured PC).
The party members find the BBEG's lair near a town. The inhabitants of the town need the aid of the BBEG, and plead with the PCs to leave him/her alone.
Can be roleplaying or a combat encounter. Mix it up and keep them on their toes.

CasESenSITItiVE
2007-12-07, 10:43 PM
once, i was about to introduce a villian that was currently much more powerful that the party. what i did was give them an NPC that was to escourt them. this NPC was considerably stronger than the PCs, so when the villian killed him quite easily, the PCs got the message and ran

Zeful
2007-12-08, 07:59 PM
There are a few things I plan to do when I dm next time.

1: Magic Jar- I'm going to abuse the hell out of the spell. Little Girls, Old Crones, Guardsmen, the mayor or king. All valid subjects to be controled and sent against the PCs. With Enlarge and Extend spell metamagics, it'll be possible to be very far away from the PCs. Plus it provides a meaningful scare tactic when the little girl they thought they were saving from the zombies happens to be the one controling them.

2: Clone- Any competent necromancer will always have one ready at least. Attended by a hypnotized person/unseen servant/death cult. It will serve to further demoralize the PCs that I show up a couple of days later in a kings court, or in a crowd.

3: Simulacrum- When the PCs have to make a choice between which BBEG to strike, they'll always get it wrong. Why? because just because there are 2-3 copies in the room does not mean I am. And when they crumple into snow at the end of the fight, it just serves to reinforce that I am powerful.

But I don't think making him invicible is the answer, because it serves for a let down when they find that he's allergic to air or whatever. How ever reinforcing his strengths make for a very annoying opponent.

SilverClawShift
2007-12-08, 09:10 PM
Any memorable lairs or character quirks?

One of the most memorable "lairs" I feel our group's ever experienced was the 'negative' mansion.

We weren't exactly sure what to expect going into it all, which helped influence the places impact on us. Throughout the campaign, the clues were leading us towards one of the key villains, and their hometown (which they still lived in). Among other things, we would occasionally find messages being sent to and from a specific building in the villains hometown. We even wound up with a stack of letters back and forth that a rogue/private eye had been intercepting and copying so the messages could be studied without alerting the BBEG to the fact that someone was on to him.

So finally, we wind up in the villains home town. And we make our way to the address on all of the correspondences and such. And we get there? A husk of a mansion. Burned out, rotted, with an empty foundation.
We ask around to find out what happened, and we get that sinking feeling. The place burned down 15 years prior. Even though the correspondences were recent.We actually geared up for ghost-hunting at that point, which proved our DM had successfully bluffed us.

Anyway, we actually got exploring the rubble at one point, and found a secret door covered in ash and rust. We go down through a cramped ash filled hallway, not sure what to expect. We come to what looks like a crypt door, spring the lock, and go in?

It's a grand foyer. Like you'd find on a real mansion, only with the blueprints flipped so that things led down instead of up. The whole place was designed like a real mansion, except you started at ground level and went a few stories down.
The creepiest aspects of it all was how accurate and non-perverse the building itself was. It wasn't some creepy foreboding place, it was a real honest to god home that just happened to be built down instead of up. So why is that creepy?

Stuff like windows. Windows that just show a layer of smooth dirt, with a few roots or earthworms. Stuff like doorways that lead to balconies, but at the edge of the balcony there's just a crumbling layer of soil and stone. There was even a tower that went straight down, and led to a little upside down peak (with windows showing that we were deep enough that the soil was grey-black).
And the BBEG sitting in what would be the equivalent of his childhood bedroom.

I dunno, maybe I'm just easy to scare, but when you say "Memorable Lair", the memories of that place remind me that they're engrained in my skull now.

nooblade
2007-12-08, 10:03 PM
I hate to say it, but some of these ideas border on the "this is just annoying for players" side. I guess it depends on playing style, some people want more straightforwardness with their stories, but I'd hate to be stuck with a DM who expects me to be enthusiastic about knowledge of a villain much more powerful than me and my party.

It just gets dull when an enemy kills off powerful NPCs in a short amount of time with no chance of saving them for practically no reason except to show off. It's more like putting the game on railroad tracks, or playing through a video game the fourth time than introducing an interesting villain. Plus, I seriously doubt that the really powerful, evil Wizards even care about the PCs. Their minions might report that some adventurers are interrupting progress, causing mild annoyance and a shift in resources, but not much bother other than that.

For it to be a fun game, there always has to be an option or two that allows the "villain" of the moment to be taken down by the players. Plus, it's more humiliating for them later when you DM that way. You could tell the Wizard, "if you had a fireball to burn through all those special damage-resistant webs quickly (and of course you didn't necessarily design the situation to take advantage of the lack of fireballs for the party Wizard, unless the villainous Wizard had enough scrying to check which spells were taken ahead of time), you would've gotten that one by now! Now this villain is going to get some rest, tap into more resources, and make you pay for initiating this conflict in a little bit."

Or I don't know. Am I ranting? Whatever makes the game fun for you and your group is probably best. I just think that introducing enemies who are a challenge right from the start of the game takes away the whole "low level annoyance". Plus, plenty of smart opponents will manage to get away through the course of a game, leading to plenty of familiar NPCs with personality! Who would've thought that the fledgling wizard you managed to sever a hand away from would turn into a Pale Master of great necromantic ability? By the way, I love the Magic Jar ideas, that spell is just amazing!

Talic
2007-12-09, 01:44 AM
My favorite way... The forceful warning. Wizard is going about his nefarious plans, and suddenly the PC's bust up building 43(b), putting the wizard a week behind schedule, and causing the wizard to have to alter something.

Response: Wizard sends someone to deal with it.

End result: Party whups up on appropriately CR'd minion, after a good fight, and gets info from minion, who tries to save his skin by surrendering.

Wizard Response: Loss of minion offsets wizard plan again. Wizard must now deal with something personally that the minion was going to do.

PC's happen to show up at said dealing. Wizard traps them utterly, leaves them looking like fools, and tells them that further involvement will likely prove fatal. Most likely leaves a red herring clue to cover his tracks, or even further his goals.

Nothing gets under a PC's collar like a haughty wizard getting the upper hand on them... Especially if they find out they were then unknowingly working for him.

Dausuul
2007-12-09, 03:26 AM
The real problem with conveying "This wizard is super-powerful" is that it's a no-brainer. You're the DM. You can show the guy blowing up the moon if you want... and your players know this. Consequently, it won't inspire awe no matter how many pyrotechnics you throw in.

Likewise, having him screw over the party with his uber-magic won't make the players cower in fear. It'll just make them annoyed, because it will come across as the DM using his power to mess with the PCs... which it is.

The trick to inspiring fear is to couple it with hope. Players aren't scared of a force they can't do anything to stop or evade. What they are scared of is a force that can squash them like bugs... but only if it spots them, and they might just be able to avoid its view long enough to find a way to beat it.

The wizard should not know for a while that the PCs are a threat to him. When he learns of the threat, he should initially treat it as a minor matter, not worthy of much attention; he sends a lesser minion (which puts the PCs through a meatgrinder) to deal with it. Eventually, of course, he'll realize that there's a serious danger here and turn all his resources to putting a halt to it--and you should milk that moment for all it's worth, the moment when the party knows the evil overlord's full attention is now on them and Doom is on its way. If you play it right, you can have them scrambling madly to finish the final quest, not stopping to rest even though the casters are all out of spells and the fighters' hit points are in the single digits, desperate to put the final piece into place before the wizard's demonic hordes descend on them.

The Lord of the Rings is an excellent source for this kind of thing. Tolkien's choice of an Eye to represent Sauron was no accident. The tension that's built throughout the story results from the constant awareness of how fragile Gandalf's whole plan is. Sauron's full power is too much for anyone in Middle-Earth to resist, and the only reason he hasn't brought it all to bear is that he doesn't know where the Ring is. As long as the hobbits (that is, the PCs) can keep that secret safe, there's hope... but one slip-up, and they're gone.

And I particularly recommend re-reading the passage near the end where Frodo puts on the Ring and Sauron finally sees him and realizes what's happening. The description of what happens throughout Sauron's realm, his armies suddenly halting, his captains wavering as his power is removed from them, and all that power is concentrated upon Mount Doom... if you can find a way to convey that to your players, they will never forget it.

Talic
2007-12-09, 04:44 AM
The all-powerful, but not all-knowing villain is all well and good, but keep in mind, there's more than one way to build a good villain.

I like the arrogant villain, the one that warns the party, tricks them into doing his bidding... Not because he needs the PC's skills; he doesn't, he's a powerful mage... But just because he can do it, and he wants his foes to know it. He feels he can give the collective pantheon above two choice words and one choice finger... He gains particular satisfaction when his very opponents further his goals, and will take risks, sometimes foolish ones, to fuel that very arrogance that is all consuming, and likely very typical of a greedy person with phenomenal cosmic power, and a not-so itty bitty living space (a la Genesis). It's the villain that spends so much time telling the PC's that they have no chance of hurting him, that the PC's love to hate him. He monologues, he gives hints, and he actually talks to the PC's, when he gains the upper hand. He's a showboater, a gloater, to his few worthy foes, and he's low key otherwise. Indeed, it may be hard even convincing others that he even exists. His goals are always brilliantly planned, if sometimes completely illogical, and sometimes recklessly implemented. He's the villain who researches a Flesh to Glass spell, just to see what happens when it's dispelled after casting Shatter on the victim... Usually on some minor ally of the party who wasn't considered a worthy foe.

It's the villain who embarks on a 50 year quest to find a way to compel the tarrasque to go to a city, because as a child he was beaten by people there. It's not that he's always in power, it's that he HAS to be in control. He won't tolerate being helpless, or even someone seeing him helpless. To even SEE him in a helpless state is a death sentence, if he ever gets out of it.

Sure, the wizard may have the upper hand time and again, but eventually, the PCs seize upon a mistake, and make him pay... And since they earned it, it's that much more satisfying...

This is by no means the only villain possible... But it's my personal favorite.

Zenos
2007-12-09, 05:56 AM
What about this:

The PC's come across a temple, with a lot of astral devas lying all about, dying and fading back to Celestia, then they walk inside, and find the BBEG walking over the dying body of a solar, taking some magic item and teleporting away.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-09, 06:37 AM
So you want to demonstrate that the wizard BBEG is evil and powerful? How about something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3344899&postcount=1)?

Zenos
2007-12-09, 08:37 AM
Hmm, maybe simply make the wizard make the PC's think he is on their team and then, when the actions he would like them to do become so evil they refuse to do it, he makes himself invisible, flies above them, reveals part of his plan because he is so bloody arrogant and then greater teleports away. If you can make him sound as if he is completely confident in his plan it should look like he is a powerful force, plus the PC's will already know he has fairly good spells, but he mentions he hasn't used his most powerful spells...

Feralgeist
2007-12-09, 09:07 AM
the whole "this guy is better than the party and they cant do anything about it" thing really annoys me. It's better to have villains who are closer in power to the PC's, but just use what they have at their disposal against them, rather than using his wand of inflict deus ex machina . i've found my players are generally more impressed when beaten by something that they could've done themselves, but overlooked, like when the BBEG uses shatter on the fighters' belt because his weapons are magical, making him provoke AoO from minions with sleep poison while he picks up his weapon.

A villain that increases in power as the players do makes for a more enjoyable game, in my opinion, and gives the players good competition while not draining them of all hope.

Even if they kill it, and you didnt want the villain dead, they can always come back as undead raised by another BBEG, or make a pact with devils while in hell, and come back with more powers to give them a slight edge over the PC's ( until they gain a level or whatever)

....
2007-12-09, 11:38 AM
My old standby for any real, serious, recurring villain is to always have them show up early in the game and smash the PCs easily.

Just use a little DM fudging to make sure no one dies, and all either drop to negatives or are down to a few HP and won't attack the wizard again unless they're insane.

Of course, you could have all of the PCs fall asleep magically, then wake up with stange cuts in their arms/legs. Three-five months later they face the BBEG wizard in what they think is the Final Confrontation. Wizard kills them all. Players think TPK, then you say, "You awaken fron darkness inside a stange glass tube, your compains are in similar tubes next to you. You are nude and helplessly chained. Before you stands "BBEG wizard", he is smiling.

Clone is a pretty amazing spell.

Triaxx
2007-12-09, 12:18 PM
Of course, this is another of those 'No point in continuing situations.' Try this more than once and you're going to loose players.

AKA_Bait
2007-12-09, 12:29 PM
Yeah, must agree. I'd say the key is not to completley overpower the players. The have to feel like they can eventually take this guy. It's hard to feel that way naked in a glass jar. The idea is just to have them be a little bit more powerful, with some creative uses of magic that the PCs can plan for and adapt to. Otherwise it's just an exercise in beating up on PC's.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-09, 01:31 PM
Now that is a fantastic idea for a WTF moment in a campaign. A band of 'heroes' is summoned to a kingdom to help discover the treachery and if necessary, remove the cause. On their way to the kingdom, the party is waylayed...there are plenty of other men in the caravan though...the fact that the PC went down doesn't necessarily mean they lost...just that the DM didn't exactly scale the mission appropriately...

The PC's awaken in a Hospital style facility...they have been in a coma for a long time while the clerics and wizards tried to bring them around...whoever is behind the treachery must have tried very hard to stop them from performing their duties. moreover, it seems the forces behind what is going on has replaced the heroes with clones...they must discover who is controlling the clones and take care of him, and take care of the clones...if they do not, the magical resonance between them and their clone will destroy them...

of course...later on everything will become clear...they are the clones. It will take some very careful planning to pull off the great OMFGWTFBBQ moment...but if you can it will be well worth it.

In the old 2nd ed, clone would work if the original was still alive, but if the clone was released and awakened, then the clone (and i think the original) would suffer ability loss and slowly rot away until one or both were killed. Whe there was only one, the clone would be the person, but not until then. In fact, in the old spell, the clone would not posess any memories past the time that they were cloned. For these purposes, one can explain that the curse/spell/whatever used to clone them tore a piece of their soul and as such, they will continue to deteriorate until they are able to eliminate their clones. Of course...that is true...:smallbiggrin:

Zeful
2007-12-09, 02:41 PM
Yeah, must agree. I'd say the key is not to completley overpower the players. The have to feel like they can eventually take this guy. It's hard to feel that way naked in a glass jar. The idea is just to have them be a little bit more powerful, with some creative uses of magic that the PCs can plan for and adapt to. Otherwise it's just an exercise in beating up on PC's.

Which is why things like magic jar work so well for that, it makes the BBEG look powerful, as he's supposed to, but it won't tip his hand, which I believe is important. Any BBEG wizard will have ways out even if it's a clone. And the important part is to make the encounter challenging but not impossible. And it'd be an interesting situation to have the BBEG possess a child, because then the PCs have to worry about the innocent puppet being used by the BBEG.

I don't think that overpowering the PCs is nessecary. Showing the BBEG as powerful is. However you run into issues with that. How can you show that the BBEG is powerful without potentially breaching PC trust? I say you set up other powerful NPCs, like a high priest or something, and have the BBEG kill/ maim/turn evil/etc. your other powerful npc. You take a risk either way, but I feel it should be somewhat realistic.

Triaxx
2007-12-09, 04:29 PM
Actually, clone is a fantastic way of keeping the party feeling like they can take the BBEG, while he gets steadily stronger. Give him one clone at each level starting at one level higher than the PC's will be when they fight him the first time. (Start at one, BBEG is Lvl3.) When that form dies, they see the Magic Jar break. Next time they fight him, he's just a little stronger, until they fight the last one, who's actually the BBEG. Of course the final one should have completely different tactics than the clones.

Dervag
2007-12-09, 05:04 PM
Why would the lowest-level clones still be around? And who would bother to clone a 3rd-level wizard, since he can't possibly do it for himself?

Talic
2007-12-10, 01:00 AM
the whole "this guy is better than the party and they cant do anything about it" thing really annoys me. It's better to have villains who are closer in power to the PC's, but just use what they have at their disposal against them, rather than using his wand of inflict deus ex machina . i've found my players are generally more impressed when beaten by something that they could've done themselves, but overlooked, like when the BBEG uses shatter on the fighters' belt because his weapons are magical, making him provoke AoO from minions with sleep poison while he picks up his weapon.

A villain that increases in power as the players do makes for a more enjoyable game, in my opinion, and gives the players good competition while not draining them of all hope.

Even if they kill it, and you didnt want the villain dead, they can always come back as undead raised by another BBEG, or make a pact with devils while in hell, and come back with more powers to give them a slight edge over the PC's ( until they gain a level or whatever)

I'm not sure about this. You're decribing a villain, sure, but not a BBEG.

To set a bit of background, I'm the kind of DM who will run the level 2 PC's through an appropriately CD'd adventure, and, when they're crawling out of the cave, dirty, beaten, up, and victorius, will have a wyvern visible flying overhead. Not necessarily pitting them against it so early, but letting the PC's know that there are bigger things than them out there. If the PC's shot arrows at the wyvern and hit, then certainly, they'd likely be in a fight out of their CR. But that's because, in addition to prowess, I value intelligence in a player. I like players who know when to pick their fights, how to use diplomacy when brute force isn't always viable, and the like. When the PC's are 17th level, most of what they meet will be much weaker than them... But I don't omit the fact that goblins don't stop ambushing travellers because 4 PC's reach 9th level.

In my opinion, BBEG's should be powerful forces in the world, with great plans that need foiling. The BBEG I think of is a force in the campaign, someone powerful from the get-go. It lets players see that setting impossible goals can eventually work out for you, as long as you work up to them. You're a third level cleric who wants to cleanse the corruption from Westgate? Great, it's a long term goal, and you'll be awarded quest xp anytime you actually further that goal in a meaningful way. It'll be part of the story, just like the BBEG. Bottom line, in my games, the PCs can shake the heavens themselves eventually... But who says they can't start out with those lofty goals?

My goal in creating a BBEG is making a fallible, yet powerful individual. Someone that's beatable, if the players truly work together, and act as a team. No one player, in a heads up match, has a ghost of a chance, no matter how they're optimized. But everyone working together has a very good chance of victory.

A great example of a mage-like BBEG is Darth Sidious (Emperor Palpatine). He far outstripped Luke in power, at the end of episode 4... However, Luke had still thrown a major monkey wrench in his plans, and eventually, grew to be someone capable of turning Sidious's greatest minion against him and taking him down. But way back in Episode 1? He was still incredibly powerful, even prior to Luke's birth. He was a mover and a shaker for a long time, a power player. But someone went from Nerf herding to emperor slaying in a few short years, and he never lost sight of his goal... Even if he had to start small to achieve it.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-10, 01:08 AM
That is only one model of a villain. If run well, a powerful villain that thwarts the goals of the PCs at low level makes for a very satisfying victory when they defeat them at high level.

I should know, because I use both models in my game. My weakness as a DM is that I have a hard time coming up with encounters that make sense at high level for the players to fight. So to compensate, I give them high level characters to hate early in the game, so that they can work towards the goal of defeating them.

In the above scenario, the Emperor most definitely won the encounter, but the PCs weren't killed, and would have made no sense for the Emperor to kill them.

Talic
2007-12-10, 01:22 AM
That is only one model of a villain. If run well, a powerful villain that thwarts the goals of the PCs at low level makes for a very satisfying victory when they defeat them at high level.

I should know, because I use both models in my game. My weakness as a DM is that I have a hard time coming up with encounters that make sense at high level for the players to fight. So to compensate, I give them high level characters to hate early in the game, so that they can work towards the goal of defeating them.

In the above scenario, the Emperor most definitely won the encounter, but the PCs weren't killed, and would have made no sense for the Emperor to kill them.

And I pointed out earlier that there are many ways to build a villain; this is my favorite. The whole point of a BBEG, is that he's not just an evil guy. He's also Big and Bad. Red Riding Hood got eaten by something that was big and bad. These kinda things aren't meant to be a run of the mill menace. BBEG's aren't for one shot games.

The scaling villain isn't really a BBEG unless he survives to the end. I'll use this model for mid range villains, something meant to occupy the PC's for 1-2, maybe 3 sessions... Then, if the PC's haven't made it sleep with the fishes, generally the goals of the PCs and the goals of the bad guy drift apart, and they encounter each other less frequently. Not always, but generally. These threats are certainly greater than the rampaging flesh golem that tore apart the countryside two weeks back, but less of a threat than a true BBEG.

Runolfr
2007-12-10, 12:50 PM
Sometimes, the little things can intimidate a party if you just describe it right.

I had a party trying to get through a narrow mountain pass blocked by a wizard's fortress. Inside were only the wizard, one henchmen, and a couple of monsters (an owlbear and an otyugh, to be precise).

The party thief climbed the wall to get a look around and open a way for everyone else. The wizard found him while he was trying to pick open a door.

The thief throws a dagger (known to be a magic dagger that returned after the throw). He saw it deflect off some invisible barrier before striking the wizard. The thief was so intimidated that he immediately fled, and the party ended up bribing the wizard with magic items to let them pass.

In effect, the party was defeated by a shield spell.

Triaxx
2007-12-11, 10:31 AM
Why would the lowest-level clones still be around? And who would bother to clone a 3rd-level wizard, since he can't possibly do it for himself?

Ring of Cloning, Lich Teacher tired of having to find new apprentices when they blow themselves up?