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Tequila Sunrise
2007-12-05, 09:48 PM
With some of us seriously talking about house ruling the worst parts of 3e rather than switch to 4e in May, I decided to make my own contribution. Here (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=213511) I will be fixing or replacing the problems that I see with the 3.0 ELH; the rampant power disparity that it encourages between optimizers and non-optimizers, its clunky epic spell casting system, the truncation at 20th level of abilities that should progress beyond and the continuation of abilities that should end at 20th and its dysfunctional wealth and equipment system. Iíll also be sneaking a few things in that I use in games of any power level.

Nebo_
2007-12-05, 10:56 PM
No Automatic Failures: An epic character does not automatically any d20 roll when he/she rolls a natural 1.


You might as well change that to: Epic characters do not fail saves or attack rolls.

Zincorium
2007-12-06, 12:13 AM
While you're contribution does look like a common-sense extension of existing class abilities to a level beyond that reachable in a 20-capped game, I have to question whether it actually fixes some of the problems you're talking about.

Powergaming in your (current) version ends up being the exact same things as pre-epic, just with tailfins on the ubercharger or batman wizards. Unless the class balance pre-epic is shifted, it's only going to get worse when amplified the way it seems to be in yours. Granted, I doubt anyone mourns the loss of the 'epic spellcasting' in the ELH in favor of yours, but they're powerful spells nonetheless.

What I would suggest is rather than the linear progression that melee classes get in the standard progression, twist it and send it over the top in epic. Time stop being a problem? Why can't a fighter (who at this point can stride up to a dragon while wearing nothing but a loincloth and beat it to death with a stick) move so quickly as to not only perform a similar feat but interrupt a mage under the effect of that spell? Cripple the CoDzilla's with well-aimed blows to the hamstrings?

I see no reason to restrict non-magical classes to being mundane when you're setting them up at this level.

Tequila Sunrise
2007-12-06, 05:50 PM
You might as well change that to: Epic characters do not fail saves or attack rolls.
I wanted to keep it vague because I know that some gamers don't like rolling spell attacks v. save DCs like I do.


Powergaming in your (current) version ends up being the exact same things as pre-epic, just with tailfins on the ubercharger or batman wizards. Unless the class balance pre-epic is shifted, it's only going to get worse when amplified the way it seems to be in yours. Granted, I doubt anyone mourns the loss of the 'epic spellcasting' in the ELH in favor of yours, but they're powerful spells nonetheless.
I'm not trying to eliminate general powergaming in my ELH 3.75 because some people are comfortable with it. Rather I'm trying to eliminate the worst of powergaming that only happens in epic play, the kind that can flat out break a game. If gamers want to reduce powergaming even further, my assumption is that they will have done so in pre-epic play and can easily apply their anti-powergaming measures to my ELH 3.75.


What I would suggest is rather than the linear progression that melee classes get in the standard progression, twist it and send it over the top in epic. Time stop being a problem? Why can't a fighter (who at this point can stride up to a dragon while wearing nothing but a loincloth and beat it to death with a stick) move so quickly as to not only perform a similar feat but interrupt a mage under the effect of that spell? Cripple the CoDzilla's with well-aimed blows to the hamstrings?

I've been thinking about feats that allow physical characters to shatter force effects, dispel personal buffs with a hit, etc... Glad that someone had the same idea.

GoC
2007-12-06, 10:48 PM
A. Shouldn't this be in Homebrew?

B. Great. Now none-paladins and non-monks always fail saves while they always succeed.:smallannoyed:

C. There's a nifty epic feat called Enhance Spell that removes the need for disintegrate XII.

D. This system also uses CRs. CRs are not precise and were meant only as a guideline. Using them is a very bad idea.

E. To be frank your epic spells are very unimaginative. Look at the Epic Spells in the ELH for nice fluffy spells. Or better yet use Belial_the_Leveler's Epic Metamagic system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37410). Why do lots of work if someone else has already done it for you?

Tequila Sunrise
2007-12-07, 04:51 AM
A. Shouldn't this be in Homebrew?
Last time I started a thread about HRs it got moved here.


B. Great. Now non-paladins and non-monks always fail saves while they always succeed.:smallannoyed:
Am I detecting sarcasm...? :smallconfused:


C. There's a nifty epic feat called Enhance Spell that removes the need for disintegrate XII.
No Enhance Spell because it was simply the ELH's solution to a truncated spell system. Besides, would you rather spend precious feats to make your spells worth casting or get the equivalent through higher level spells and save your feats for things like Epic Empower?


D. This system also uses CRs. CRs are not precise and were meant only as a guideline. Using them is a very bad idea.
I think using CRs is a much better idea than using HD. Spells that use HD as limiting factors do so because HD are supposed to be a rough estimate of monster challenge, but HD are an even rougher estimate than CR is.


E. To be frank your epic spells are very unimaginative. Look at the Epic Spells in the ELH for nice fluffy spells. Or better yet use Belial_the_Leveler's Epic Metamagic system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37410). Why do lots of work if someone else has already done it for you?
I didn't intend these basic epic spells to be imaginative; in fact I made a point of saying the opposite. After all, there's not much for epic spells to cover that pre-epic hasn't already covered. (combining dissimilar spells into one has already been done by spells like Sending)

Tequila Sunrise
2007-12-07, 03:54 PM
Epic dragon progressions added!