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Willahad
2007-12-07, 01:21 PM
What's your favorite series and why (if I new how to make this a poll I would)

My favorite is voyager mainly because it had the best plot (kind of the opposite of DS9). I thought enterprise had a lot of potential waisted on it, which was probablly why it was cancled.

averagejoe
2007-12-07, 01:27 PM
The Next Generation, if for no other reason than it had easily the best series finale of any of the treks, so it left me with good thoughts.

ALOR
2007-12-07, 01:54 PM
Next generation is by far my favorite. I never got into voyager, it was lost in space but with better special effects. And when i saw Janeway made admiral before Picard i wanted to vomit. :smallannoyed:

Green Bean
2007-12-07, 01:57 PM
I've always prefered TNG, mainly because Data's awesome, and Picard is my favourite captain.

Anyways, quick question; how many lights are there? :smallamused:

Darken Rahl
2007-12-07, 01:59 PM
THERE

ARE

FOUR

LIGHTS!!!

Mr.Moron
2007-12-07, 02:00 PM
DS9, due in no small part to it's high ferengi content. Honestly, I wouldn't have been upset if quark got his own spin-off.

Darken Rahl
2007-12-07, 02:02 PM
To answer the question, I prefer TNG the series, TOS movies, and the rest are tied for third place. The chemistry og TNG was awesome, as was TOS in the movies. The TNG movies, with the exception of First Contact, were boring, overlong episodes, and TOS was cheesy most times.

VOY had Neelix, who annoyed me, DS9 was forced to have the action come to them, which hurt it, as well as Bjorans, the bleeding heart terrorists I love to hate. ENT never had a chance, although I liked most of the actors.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-12-07, 02:04 PM
Star Trek. Two words, no C. Please.

Anyways, Deep Space Nine actually ended up being my favorite. Dunno why but it seemed so much more real than the others, though I was a big fan of NG and Voyager. Sisko to me just seemed the most human of them all and was fantastically acted. Picard was usually too stuffy and Janeway frankly annoyed the p'tak out of me from beginning to end.

Despite my avatar I am not a fan of the original series (except for a few choice episodes), though I have to say it had the best of the Trek movies.

Darken Rahl
2007-12-07, 02:07 PM
I'm the only Star Trek fan I know who thinks Star Trek IV was the best movie of them all.

It was so human, with such amazing charisma and such a fun, nostalgic script.

factotum
2007-12-07, 02:12 PM
DS9 all the way...it wasn't as light and fluffy as most of the other efforts. Voyager would have been better if the writers had stuck to the limitations imposed on them by the setting, rather than having the ship magically create new shuttles when required, solving every situation with a new type of particle someone had just discovered, etc.

Oh, and whoever wrote the episode where we learn that Ocampa only ever have one child in their entire lives should sit down and do some calculations as to how long the race could possibly survive if that was the case...it was almost as bad as the Buck Rogers episode where child-sized women apparently gave birth to adult-sized children!

GimliFett
2007-12-07, 02:13 PM
I love the Original Series, though TNG and DS9 tie for second place. Each had their weak points, but made up for them in different ways.

Voyager lost focus on the better characters (and I never did like Janeway). I would really have liked more Tom/Be'lana and Chakotay stories. Plus drag Species <679?whatever?> out more than they did. I liked them.
"The weak shall perish." Too bad they turned out to be the weak. Bleh.

Enterprise wasn't what I expected (and not as good), though as far as cast goes, I think it started with the best group of actors of all the shows.

FoE
2007-12-07, 02:15 PM
Wow. You absolutely butchered the title of the series. "Startreck?" Good gravy, man!

My favourite was TNG, although the early years are a little hokey, and the later years are a little dull. Enterprise is probably next on my list, followed by Voyager. But Voyager wasn't a very good show ó*not enough tension on the show. It ran out of steam after the first season and the last season was particularly godawful, as they just kept recycling the villains they met over previous seasons.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-12-07, 02:16 PM
Oh yeah, Enterprise had potential oozing out their lobes... but was wasted. It also had, in my opinion, the best intro ever. It fit so well and was very inspiring, so of course it didn't live up to what it could have.

GimliFett
2007-12-07, 02:17 PM
Oh yeah, Enterprise had potential oozing out their lobes... but was wasted. It also had, in my opinion, the best intro ever. It fit so well and was very inspiring, so of course it didn't live up to what it could have.

As far as intros, I'd agree with you on Enterprise's. Then DS9's and TOS, then TNG and finally Voyager. I think the overall lameness of the show just dragged everything down, IMO. YMMV.

Were-Sandwich
2007-12-07, 02:24 PM
I like Enterprise. I don't know why, its just got a different vibe to the other series. My favourite character is Malcolm. He jsut want sto blow something up, bless him.

WarriorTribble
2007-12-07, 02:25 PM
Geek polls (http://slashdot.org/pollBooth.pl?qid=1489&aid=-1) seem to think that TNG was the best Star Trek, and while I think they had the best episodes, (and finale) overall my vote is for DS9. TNG had a nauseating amount of optimism, judgmental pricks, technobabble, and later surrealism for me to like it as a whole. DS9 on the other hand had this novel concept of showing non-trivial flaws in their main cast, and actually getting their hands dirty for the greater good. I personally refuse to believe that in a chaotic universe like Trek the Federation managed to survive without forces like Section 31. TNG people (except the main cast) were way too fragile emotionally and physically.

Poison_Fish
2007-12-07, 02:28 PM
Star Trek. Two words, no C. Please.

Anyways, Deep Space Nine actually ended up being my favorite. Dunno why but it seemed so much more real than the others, though I was a big fan of NG and Voyager. Sisko to me just seemed the most human of them all and was fantastically acted. Picard was usually too stuffy and Janeway frankly annoyed the p'tak out of me from beginning to end.

Despite my avatar I am not a fan of the original series (except for a few choice episodes), though I have to say it had the best of the Trek movies.

Perhaps it was the tribble episode of DS9 that touched you?

Darken Rahl
2007-12-07, 02:30 PM
The intro Music for ENT was the worst ever. It sounded like Michael Bolton, for goodness' sake.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-07, 02:35 PM
How can you possibly have misspelled this?

Anyway, TNG generally was the highest quality. Voyager holds a place in my heart for being my first series, but I'll be honest and say it's terrible most of the time.

However, I think I have to go with Original Flavor for sheer entertainment value. Even their crappy episodes are hilarious, and their good episodes were downright groundbreaking.

FoE
2007-12-07, 02:49 PM
(Enterprise) also had, in my opinion, the best intro ever. It fit so well and was very inspiring, so of course it didn't live up to what it could have.

In Canada, the Space Channel (the Canadian version of Sci-Fi) holds an annual awards show called the Spaceys. The year that Enterprise got the plug pulled, they had a choir dressed in Federation uniforms, Klingon costumes and one or two green girls sing the Enterprise anthem.

It was ****ing beautiful, man.

You know what the problem with Voyager was? It was Farscape without the tension or the craziness. The best idea that series had was "The Year of Hell," and the whole thing got wiped out with a time warp. Blech.

MeklorIlavator
2007-12-07, 02:58 PM
I prefer Deep Space Nine or the Next Generation. One of the best things in my opinion about deep space nine is that they made an effort to have severe problems last, like with the capture of the station and dominion war. I generally see too little of it in Television, with two many extremely dangerous problems that are solved in an hour. True, the episode could occur over a couple of days, but too often it seems that the extremely dangerous trap/monster/other-dangerous-thing of the week really isn't all that bad.

adanedhel9
2007-12-07, 03:15 PM
DS9 for me. While particular episodes of all the other series are good, or even great, DS9 had a story that stuck with me on so many different levels.

One of my favorite moments in ST has got to be Garak's speech in the last episode. Paraphrased (it's been a while since I've seen it):

2 billion dead. The libraries, museums, our history, wiped out. This isn't home. This is hell.

Plus, DS9 has the best trek babe in Ezri. :smallbiggrin:

Athaniar
2007-12-07, 03:21 PM
I can't really say anything because I've only seen (all of) TNG, but I really liked that show. Among my favorite Sci-fi shows, it is.

Kneenibble
2007-12-07, 03:29 PM
I agree with WarriorTribble. Not to deny its virtues, which are ample, but the Next Generation was just so damned STIFF, except for Q. Picard is the best captain, because he is the best actor of the captain actors; but he can't buoy a whole series.

I like the dystopia of DS9 and its addition of more fantastic elements, for example the Bajoran mysticism and the Pah Wraith subplot in the later seasons. Garak is supreme and Julian Bashere is such a sexy nerd archetype. Jadzia Dax is also the most alluring female of them all, too. And Worf had SO many golden Klingon one-liners! Like "Do not hug me." Deadpan. Come on.

WalkingTarget
2007-12-07, 03:29 PM
TNG has more of my favorite main characters and individual episodes, but I gotta go with DS9 for the extended plot and side characters (Garak FTW). The Dominion War was just a heftier plot element than what made it into the other shows.

Enterprise had a lot of potential that was wasted. I think it'd have been much better served to have done something with the first encounter with the Romulans or other things from the backstory of the other shows instead of making up their own major threats (Xindi) that weren't mentioned in the "later" settings. I know the last season had some of the backstory stuff (like the Romulans), but if they'd gotten to some of that earlier it might have kept old-school fans involved and helped the ratings.

Glawackus
2007-12-07, 03:33 PM
Oh yeah, Enterprise had potential oozing out their lobes... but was wasted. It also had, in my opinion, the best intro ever. It fit so well and was very inspiring, so of course it didn't live up to what it could have.

This.

I remember getting stoked for the series premiere after having heard the plot (OMG KLINGON CRASHES IN KANSAS AND THE ENTERPRISE HAS TO BRING HIM BACK SO COOL), sitting down, tapping my toes to the theme song and thinking "Wow. Why didn't they ever put that on TNG?",reasonably enjoying the episode, smiling at the ending, and then tuning in next week to see the show fall apart on me.

Does anyone else remember Ronald D. Moore's plan for Voyager that basically ended up turning into the new BSG series? More wasted potential. Hopefully the new movie will kick all kinds of butt.

EllysW
2007-12-07, 03:47 PM
Overall I'm happiest to watch reruns of DS9 when I get the chance. I think this is due primarily to the narrative arc; when a story evolves over time, it can touch on deeper themes and draw on more sophisticated resources in both writing and acting. TNG had some very fine individual episodes in seasons 3 through 5 or 6, but the creative team never allowed the characters or situations to change or grow, so as a whole series I prefer DS9.

TOS is a different matter; it's such a part of my nerdy soul that I can't compare it to the others. It's an icon. It's the only one I would ever consider owning, and I can't even say why we do. We just DO.

Darken Rahl
2007-12-07, 04:05 PM
Are you guys KIDDING?!

The ENT theme song belongs onstage with Kenny G and a crowd of 45 year old ladies swaying to the melody. It's HORRIBLE!

Woofsie
2007-12-07, 04:21 PM
Plus, DS9 has the best trek babe in Ezri. :smallbiggrin:

Oh come on, it's GOT to be Jadzia! :smalltongue: She was just iconic in so many ways.


On a related note, my favourite series is DS9. It always felt far more real than the others to me, and I thought it had more engaging characters.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-12-07, 04:26 PM
Are you guys KIDDING?!

The ENT theme song belongs onstage with Kenny G and a crowd of 45 year old ladies swaying to the melody. It's HORRIBLE!
*bares fangs and leaps*



Oh come on, it's GOT to be Jadzia! She was just iconic in so many ways.
Though Jadzia was quite nice, I have to say Ezrie was even better. I've always preferred the cute, sweet-natured gals.

FoE
2007-12-07, 04:45 PM
For me, the most babe-alicious Star Trek babe is a toss of the coin between Lt. Ohoru and T'Pol.

Aside from the alternate universe two-parter, you know what my favourite episode of the last season of Enterprise was? The one where we discovered those green girls were the rulers of their civilization, and all the men were basically their slaves.

Darken Rahl
2007-12-07, 04:49 PM
I'm sorry man, I can't let this go. When I first heard that song, I seriously thought it was Rod Stewart.

Oh wait, that's cuz it might as well have been!

"Originally titled Faith of the Heart, it was written by Diane Warren and originally performed by Rod Stewart for the 1998 movie Patch Adams. "

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Where_My_Heart_Will_Take_Me

RTGoodman
2007-12-07, 04:56 PM
I've gotta go with The Next Generation. Really, besides a few select episodes of the Original series and maybe like 2 from DS9, it's the only one that I can stand.

Of course, it could just be that I have an odd obsession with Patrick Stewart. :smallbiggrin:

Willahad
2007-12-07, 05:00 PM
I've noticed that each series has to make sure that it has a really lousy acter. TOS had Sulu, TNG had Geordie, DS9 had Sisco, Voyager had Kim, and ENT had Mayweather. All of them were kind of pathetic though they really didn't play important rolls (exept Sisco and I never watched many of the DS9 episodes because of that). I mean sure they got their episodes that were just about them, but the episodes weren't very frequent. There were some very good acters on the other hand, Data, Reed, Tuvok, and The docter are the olnly ones that come off the top of my head; but then again I never saw many DS9 episodes.

GimliFett
2007-12-07, 05:01 PM
DS9 had Sisco

Are you insane? Blasphemer! The Sisco rules all.
:smallbiggrin:

SpoonlessJedi
2007-12-07, 08:47 PM
And when i saw Janeway made admiral before Picard i wanted to vomit. :smallannoyed:

Janeway spent seven years stranded in uncharted space, battling aliens never seen before, fighting for her ship and her crew's lives on a daily basis. If they had maintained a steady supply of dilithium AND never stopped to defend themselves from hostile species, they would have, at best, made it back in seventy years. Seventy years with no one but each other to depend on- what do you think that did to her crew's morale? And she kept it up. She supported those people AND defended her ship AND retroactively mastered time travel and tricked the Borg into sending them home. If that doesn't deserve a promotion to Admiral, I don't know what does. Picard did nothing of such valor or consequence.

WarriorTribble
2007-12-07, 08:54 PM
If that doesn't deserve a promotion to Admiral, I don't know what does. Picard did nothing of such valor or consequence.Oh, I dunno... Picard only saved humanity directly, and indirectly several times, and he did it without cheating with future anti-borg tech.

SpoonlessJedi
2007-12-07, 09:02 PM
Oh, I dunno... Picard only saved humanity directly, and indirectly several times, and he did it without cheating with future anti-borg tech.

If we're going to get into this, Kirk kicked Picard and Janeway's butts out to the Delta Quadrant. He saved the earth AND a long-extinct species.

factotum
2007-12-08, 03:36 AM
Are you insane? Blasphemer! The Sisco rules all.
:smallbiggrin:

I'd have to say that I think you would have been right IF they'd gone with Tony Todd in the role--he's just a much better actor than Avery Brooks, as he proved in the episode where he appeared as a future version of Jake Sisko.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-08, 03:40 AM
Janeway spent seven years stranded in uncharted space, battling aliens never seen before, fighting for her ship and her crew's lives on a daily basis. If they had maintained a steady supply of dilithium AND never stopped to defend themselves from hostile species, they would have, at best, made it back in seventy years. Seventy years with no one but each other to depend on- what do you think that did to her crew's morale? And she kept it up. She supported those people AND defended her ship AND retroactively mastered time travel and tricked the Borg into sending them home. If that doesn't deserve a promotion to Admiral, I don't know what does. Picard did nothing of such valor or consequence.
Well that's the theory...her actual actions on the show were somewhat less than what should have logically happened to actually get them home.

And again, how many times has Picard saved the Earth from imminent destruction? Kirk too, but Kirk made admiral. Twice, I think.

averagejoe
2007-12-08, 04:07 AM
If we're going to get into this, Kirk kicked Picard and Janeway's butts out to the Delta Quadrant. He saved the earth AND a long-extinct species.

Yes, but no one is arguing that Kirk didn't deserve the promotion. Besides, it's a moot point, because it would have been downright rediculous if either Picard or Janeway got promoted ahead of Kirk.

However, I think it's likely that Picard listened to Kirk and warded off his promotion.

Also, for the record, Janeway didn't get them home a buncha times, often for dumb reasons.


I'd have to say that I think you would have been right IF they'd gone with Tony Todd in the role--he's just a much better actor than Avery Brooks, as he proved in the episode where he appeared as a future version of Jake Sisko.

Yes, but that would have been just silly. I mean, come on, the guy has two first names! There would be chaos and riots. :smallbiggrin:

WarriorTribble
2007-12-08, 08:29 AM
Also, for the record, Janeway didn't get them home a buncha times, often for dumb reasons.Ooh! My favorite episode for that would be Timeless (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Timeless).A. Why doesn't Janeway and crew consider simply shutting down the slipstream drive before the catastrophic error occurs? Considering how fast slipstream travel is they could've easily gotten home quickly even with short burts of slipstream. Or, assuming you had to be in inside the tunnel for x amount of time.
B: Why not head home a few people at a time on the Delta Flyer, and rig Voyager to explode?

In short they stayed cause the crew loves the ship WAY too much... Harry's mom should be pissed. :smalltongue:

adanedhel9
2007-12-08, 09:34 AM
I think it's entirely probably that there's more in getting and admiralty than experience and capability - there's also politics. Picard and Kirk, while the best of the best of the Federation during their respective eras, chose not to play that game. Janeway did.

Willahad
2007-12-08, 11:29 AM
Ooh! My favorite episode for that would be Timeless (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Timeless).A. Why doesn't Janeway and crew consider simply shutting down the slipstream drive before the catastrophic error occurs? Considering how fast slipstream travel is they could've easily gotten home quickly even with short burts of slipstream. Or, assuming you had to be in inside the tunnel for x amount of time.
B: Why not head home a few people at a time on the Delta Flyer, and rig Voyager to explode?

In short they stayed cause the crew loves the ship WAY too much... Harry's mom should be pissed. :smalltongue:

The slipstream drive was unstable from the beggining, but they didn't realize it though they did know something wasn't right which is why they had Kim and Chakotay go in the Delta Flyer to moniter their progress. then the delta flyer was too small to be affected by watever caused it to crash. Of course Janeway should of realized that they would never make it home in the fith season, but then again she never broke the forth wall:smallwink:

Another example of when the could have gotten home, was in False prophits (http://chakoteya.net/Voyager/224.htm) if Janeway had taken the initiative to send better security to lock the ferengi up then the ferengi wouldn't have stolen a shutel, and gone through the wormhole, in doing so disrupting it and denying voyager a passage through the wormhole. But again it was only the third season.
which reminds me in endgame (http://chakoteya.net/Voyager/722.htm) admiral Janway coud of just time traveled back to False prophits, and tell younger Janeway to make sure that the ferengi were locked up, and then they would have gotten home after only three years in the delta quadrent.

rickvoid
2007-12-08, 11:52 AM
Worf.

Any Star Trek series becomes better with an infusion of Worf.

:smallfurious: "Captain I must protest! I am NOT a merry man!"

averagejoe
2007-12-08, 11:59 AM
Ooh! My favorite episode for that would be Timeless (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Timeless)

Speaking of which, the whole "time travel" thing has gotten used more and more as Trek goes on, and it got really bad with Voyager, who did it with every, like, third episode or something.

Now, it was kinda interesting in TOS when Kirk accidentally saved someone who would have started a massive peace movement which would have enabled Germany to do all sorts of bad things in WWII, so then he had to fix his mistake. It was less interesting, but still entertaining, when the enterprise got stuck in an infinite time loop and had to rely on vague intuition to get out of it. However, it seemed like every second or third episode of Voyager was some sort of a time travel episode. It was, like, the generic plot they pulled out when they couldn't think of anything better. And they really could have chosen a better one, because the whole time travel thing was already tired and overused, and they never really did anything new with it.

....
2007-12-08, 12:19 PM
Are you guys KIDDING?!

The ENT theme song belongs onstage with Kenny G and a crowd of 45 year old ladies swaying to the melody. It's HORRIBLE!

I just watched it, and I agree.

Why put some crappy power ballad to that awesome image montage? A modified version of the Star Trek theme would've been fine.

EDIT: And I always assume that Picard didn't want to be an Admiral. Especially considering what Kirk told him, "Don't let them trasfer you, or promote you, or do anything to get you off the bridge of that ship. Because while you're there... you can make a difference."

Picard wants to make a difference.

Zakama
2007-12-08, 12:57 PM
I'm the only Star Trek fan I know who thinks Star Trek IV was the best movie of them all.

It was so human, with such amazing charisma and such a fun, nostalgic script.

That movie was win. Pure, undiluted win. Modern society should be remade on the teachings of the whale movie.

Chekov- "Where are the nuclear wessels?"

Kirk- "Everyone remember where we parked" :smallbiggrin:

My favorite series is TNG. I love the characters (except for Troi. Gah, worst star trek babe.) and the effects aren't painful like in TOS. Granted I've only seen TOS, TNG, and VOY, but of those TNG is the best. TOS does have a special place in my heart just because it started it all, And it has something about it that you really can't explain. Maybe it has something to do with Spock. Spock and McCoy FTW. Seeing all these good reviews of DS9 maybe I'll start watching it...

WarriorTribble
2007-12-08, 03:33 PM
which reminds me in endgame (http://chakoteya.net/Voyager/722.htm) admiral Janway coud of just time traveled back to False prophits, and tell younger Janeway to make sure that the ferengi were locked up, and then they would have gotten home after only three years in the delta quadrent.Ya... the finale was a plot hole big enough to support a Borg fleet. With the ability to travel in space/time why didn't she consider using the that tech to get Voyager home (not likely but still...)? Or, since this is a one way mission why not go to the begining, run interference with the Kazon while Voyager uses the array to get home, then destroy it herself? Hell, why not intercept Voyager, and Chakotay's ship while they're in the Badlands? I'm sure it can all be rationalized, but the hole is still huge.

Wizzardman
2007-12-08, 04:15 PM
Janeway spent seven years stranded in uncharted space, battling aliens never seen before, fighting for her ship and her crew's lives on a daily basis. If they had maintained a steady supply of dilithium AND never stopped to defend themselves from hostile species, they would have, at best, made it back in seventy years. Seventy years with no one but each other to depend on- what do you think that did to her crew's morale? And she kept it up. She supported those people AND defended her ship AND retroactively mastered time travel and tricked the Borg into sending them home. If that doesn't deserve a promotion to Admiral, I don't know what does. Picard did nothing of such valor or consequence.

That's only because her entire series was a constant battle of One-Upmanship with TNG. Additionally, none of the 'morale problems' you mention were ever revealed on the show--the writers obviously tried to include them (occasionally), but they were always forgotten by the start of the next episode.

Of course, to be fair, Picard had already ignored several attempts to promote him to admiral, as he preferred to actually command a starship.

Additionally, people who are MIA for several years are generally not promoted (even if they brought their whole ship and most of their crew back). Generally, people who are MIA for several years are put under rigorous physical and psychological analysis to determine if anything happened to them out there, and then retired just in case.

My favorite Star Trek is Next Generation, although I really enjoyed the story and character development of DS9. TNG is my favorite simply because I grew up on it; DS9 had a more consistent storyline, more three dimensional characters (especially compared to TNG's early seasons), and more Worf character development.

Also: Jadzia has the 'strong woman' character type, and is thereby awesome.

SpoonlessJedi
2007-12-09, 01:12 PM
I'm the only Star Trek fan I know who thinks Star Trek IV was the best movie of them all.

It was so human, with such amazing charisma and such a fun, nostalgic script.


My husband and I agree that "The One with the Whales," as it's colloquially dubbed, was by far the best movie. We DO, in fact, like Italian.

Willahad
2007-12-11, 04:03 PM
I'm the only Star Trek fan I know who thinks Star Trek IV was the best movie of them all.

It was so human, with such amazing charisma and such a fun, nostalgic script.

I ceartainly think so, though the part where they fly around the sun to time travel was kind of lame. Voyager tried to copy it in Futers end (http://chakoteya.net/Voyager/304.htm) which wasn't very good, but later on in the series they returned captain Braxton in realativity (http://chakoteya.net/Voyager/523.htm) that was a good episode

Darken Rahl
2007-12-11, 04:16 PM
I ceartainly think so, though the part where they fly around the sun to time travel was kind of lame. Voyager tried to copy it in Futers end (http://chakoteya.net/Voyager/304.htm) which wasn't very good, but later on in the series they returned captain Braxton in realativity (http://chakoteya.net/Voyager/523.htm) that was a good episode

Yeah, the dream sequence thrown in there for the excuse to use CG really sucked a lot.

Dervag
2007-12-11, 10:01 PM
Oh, I dunno... Picard only saved humanity directly, and indirectly several times, and he did it without cheating with future anti-borg tech.One catch. And this can apply to either Janeway or Picard.

Officers are generally not promoted to flag rank (commodore or admiral) for doing some really outstanding thing as a captain. There's a good reason for this. Flag officers have to have a great deal of skill at management, fleet tactics, and other areas that a captain simply cannot be assumed to have because of a successful ship-to-ship action. Or even saving the galaxy- Captain Huck may save the galaxy because he's great at handling his ship or because he outguessed the evil alien, and yet be utterly unfit to command a fleet or a planetary defense force.

Promotions from, say, ensign to lieutenant may come from a major accomplishment, but promotion to flag rank generally does not. Another reason for this is that the number of available flag rank positions is limited in a force that isn't growing rapidly. As a rule, promotions can only happen when an existing admiral dies or retires, or when a new command is created for an admiral (which costs a lot of money).

So if you ask who should get promoted to admiral first, Janeway or Picard, then you have to ask three questions:
1)Which of them has seniority (which was made a captain first), and how much of it (how long were they made a captain before the other)? Generally, more senior officers get the first shots at flag promotions. If Picard is 10 or 20 years senior to Janeway, then Picard would be considered first for any promotions. He might or might not get them, but he'd be considered for them.

2)Which of them has better political connections? No officer is going to be promoted to commodore or admiral unless they are acceptable to the politics of the fleet's high command. Janeway, coming in from the distant reaches of space, probably has no friends or enemies in Starfleet. Picard would have both. Since he's gotten in trouble with Starfleet on many occasions, he may have many political enemies. That doesn't mean they disrespect his service record- he's saved the world, he's done all kinds of great things. But they don't like him and they don't feel they can depend on him, which means they aren't very likely to vote to promote him.

3)Which of them has displayed better skills at personnel management, fleet tactics, and other things an admiral is far more likely to have to worry about on a large scale than a captain? For instance, Starfleet seems to do a fair amount of what really ought to be diplomatic work- which is the better diplomat, Picard or Janeway?


Additionally, people who are MIA for several years are generally not promoted (even if they brought their whole ship and most of their crew back). Generally, people who are MIA for several years are put under rigorous physical and psychological analysis to determine if anything happened to them out there, and then retired just in case.We already know that Starfleet is shockingly foolish by modern military standards, and fails to take precautions that a turn-of-the-millenium military would consider routine.

They design ships that blow up whenever an active system fails (as opposed to modern power plants that are designed to be unable to work when the control systems break down). Likewise, they have contained samples of lethal plague germs inside powered forcefields that will fail if the power glitches, rather than inside bottles that will not fail even if the power glitches. For that matter, their ships cannot even hold together without an active, powered "structural integrity field."

As a general rule, their safety systems lack the redundancy and graceful failure states found in most modern engineering wherever possible. For instance, a well-designed antimatter reactor would have several layers of redundant containment, so that even if one field generator fails there are others to backstop it. It would also be designed to vent the antimatter into space in the event of containment failure, rather than having it explode and destroy the ship. This would not be a process some person or computer has to initiate deliberately; it is possible to design such a thing to operate without commands as a natural part of the function of the ship.

Their systems are interlocked rather than isolated, so a failure in one system can trigger failures in other systems.

They do not use reasonable test protocols when working with new technology. Hardly ever do they test a technology under controlled conditions. Instead, when they develop an AI capable of flying and fighting a warship they test it without taking such precautions as, say, disabling the ship's main armament. They test propulsion systems by installing them in a ship and launching it at the nearest populated planet (if something goes wrong with the propulsion system, they suddenly have an emergency on their hands).

They persist in using unreliable technologies that have caused all sorts of disasters. Any normal modern officer in command of a large ship would have simply disconnected the holodeck on the Enterprise-D, welded the doors shut, and sent a recommendation to Starfleet that the technology be barred from operational warships pending further installation of failsafes.

So it should be no surprise that they also promote officers who were recently MIA for a period of years or decades.

WarriorTribble
2007-12-12, 12:12 PM
One catch. And this can apply to either Janeway or Picard. /snipI agree with you on everything except your reasons why Janeway should be promoted. Compared to Picard she has very little experience dealing with her Federation superiors, heck she has relatively little experience dealing with Starfleet personnel period. I find it hard to believe that she was promoted due to being a exceptional beuracratic/diplomat/fleet manager, cause frankly we've no evidence of that. Personally I think she's an exception to the rule and got her extra pip due to her actions (dealing several crippling blows to the Borg, bringing enough tech to ensure the Federation is the most technologially advanced power for years to come, etc.)
We already know that Starfleet is shockingly foolish by modern military standards, and fails to take precautions that a turn-of-the-millenium military would consider routine.Let's not forget their inability to prevent unauthorized shuttle launches, and the odd tendency for security to walk not run to trouble areas. :smallbiggrin:

Willahad
2007-12-13, 02:33 PM
Probably every captain in each series has saved the world.
Janeway probably made the admiral possition, because Voyager didn't chose to go to the delta quadrent. When Archer made it back to earth he didn't get promoted after saving the world simmply because the admiral position had already been filled by Forest. of course a few episodes later Forest gets blown up, but Archer still doesn't become an admiral

sikyon
2007-12-13, 11:35 PM
Janeway got admiral before Picard because she accepted Admiral before Picard.

Picard was offered Admiral, and position as head of starfleet acadamy no less, but he turned it down. He then saved the fedaration from aliens parasitic invaders. Picard has been offered Admiral a few times, actually, but has declined every time because he loves being a captain. Riker has also not been promoted because he has turned down captaincy many times, in the hope of becoming captain of the enterprise when Picard finally kicks it.

Picard basically has the weight of an admiral. He is extremly experianced, very, very senior captain of the federation's flagship.


We already know that Starfleet is shockingly foolish by modern military standards, and fails to take precautions that a turn-of-the-millenium military would consider routine.

They design ships that blow up whenever an active system fails (as opposed to modern power plants that are designed to be unable to work when the control systems break down). Likewise, they have contained samples of lethal plague germs inside powered forcefields that will fail if the power glitches, rather than inside bottles that will not fail even if the power glitches. For that matter, their ships cannot even hold together without an active, powered "structural integrity field."

As a general rule, their safety systems lack the redundancy and graceful failure states found in most modern engineering wherever possible. For instance, a well-designed antimatter reactor would have several layers of redundant containment, so that even if one field generator fails there are others to backstop it. It would also be designed to vent the antimatter into space in the event of containment failure, rather than having it explode and destroy the ship. This would not be a process some person or computer has to initiate deliberately; it is possible to design such a thing to operate without commands as a natural part of the function of the ship.

You have no idea how the technology in star trek works. Nobody does. Just because you think that you have some sort of genius idea doesn't mean that it could actually be implemented. Do you have any idea how a warp core works? In detail? No, you do not. Nobody does. You are just making a bunch of assumptions that you could understand something that makes FTL travel possible by using conventional physics. This is about as foolish as trying to apply newtonian physics to relativistic systems.

EDIT: I liked TNG after first 2 seasons, DS9 after start of dominion war, Voyager after they finally got through kazon space and enterprise all the way through. Never watched alot of TOS

WarriorTribble
2007-12-13, 11:42 PM
You have no idea how the technology in star trek works. Nobody does. Just because you think that you have some sort of genius idea doesn't mean that it could actually be implemented. Do you have any idea how a warp core works? In detail? No, you do not. Nobody does. You are just making a bunch of assumptions that you could understand something that makes FTL travel possible by using conventional physics. This is about as foolish as trying to apply newtonian physics to relativistic systems.How the tech works is irrelevant, it still remains that 24th century explorers care less about safety, and redundancy than we do. Ex. there's no reason why the holodecks which are used primarily for entertainment should cause so much trouble in the ST universe. Safety protocols fail so often that you gotta wonder why it's even possible to create realistic life threatening simulations in the first place. Well for the Federation at least. Klingons and others have their "it's a good day to die" theme.

sikyon
2007-12-13, 11:50 PM
How the tech works is irrelevant, it still remains that 24th century explorers care less about safety, and redundancy than we do. Ex. there's no reason why the holodecks which are used primarily for entertainment should cause so much trouble in the ST universe. Safety protocols fail so often that you gotta wonder why it's even possible to create realistic life threatening simulations in the first place. Well for the Federation at least. Klingons and others have their "it's a good day to die" theme.

No. There's no reason you can think of that the holodecks should cause so much trouble. That does not mean that there isn't one.

Furthermore, you fall prey to the fallacy that what you see on screen are common events. If they were common events, then they wouldn't really be shown, would they? Therefore, you cannot generalize that they fail often, because you only see the times they do fail, and rarely the times they do not fail.

TheThan
2007-12-14, 12:26 AM
The federation doesnít build war ships. They build exploration ships. Every version of the enterprise is a multi-role ship. Theyíre designed for exploration, ambassadorial work, science work, emergency relief work, and just about anything else imaginable. Their role as warships are secondary, yes they have powerful weapons, but these are multi-role weapons too (phaser doubling as a drilling apparatus for instance). In fact I know of only one real warship, that would be the Defiant, and a heck of a warship it was.

When you stop and think about it. It really is stupid. The federation is surrounded by hostile alien forces (cardasians, klingons, romulans etc) with large and powerful war fleets, yet they do not have the sense to build war ships or planetary defenses to protect their own systems from these threats.

Just because you donít have guns, doesnít mean those who do canít kill you.

sikyon
2007-12-14, 12:39 AM
The federation doesnít build war ships. They build exploration ships. Every version of the enterprise is a multi-role ship. Theyíre designed for exploration, ambassadorial work, science work, emergency relief work, and just about anything else imaginable. Their role as warships are secondary, yes they have powerful weapons, but these are multi-role weapons too (phaser doubling as a drilling apparatus for instance). In fact I know of only one real warship, that would be the Defiant, and a heck of a warship it was.

When you stop and think about it. It really is stupid. The federation is surrounded by hostile alien forces (cardasians, klingons, romulans etc) with large and powerful war fleets, yet they do not have the sense to build war ships or planetary defenses to protect their own systems from these threats.

Just because you donít have guns, doesnít mean those who do canít kill you.

Soverign class is as powerful as most other warships of other races, and still has scientific capability.

The federation is like the good guy, that lives in the bad part of town. Just because everyone else carriers a shiv and could shank him doesn't mean he's gonna stoop to their level, because that would be against who he is. The federation isn't stupid, it's the good guy.

WarriorTribble
2007-12-14, 12:02 PM
No. There's no reason you can think of that the holodecks should cause so much trouble. That does not mean that there isn't one.

Furthermore, you fall prey to the fallacy that what you see on screen are common events. If they were common events, then they wouldn't really be shown, would they? Therefore, you cannot generalize that they fail often, because you only see the times they do fail, and rarely the times they do not fail.You miss my point. I meant, if a tech is as dangerous as the holodeck you make it safer no matter how many years, or how much techobabble one must invest.

I'm aware my views might be skewed. On the other hand, considering how dangerous the holodeck is, twice is too often. The first time the safety was removed due to some tech fluke, or the first time a sociopath was given sentience due to a verbal command, there should've been a massive overhaul of the system to ensure such things didn't happen again, yet the Federation in it's wisdom decided to "tough it out" for years. Note how the whole "tech go boom now safety down" still seemed to happen in the most advanced Federation starships, and oddly no one talkes about debugging the holodeck to prevent things like this. That's utterly idiotic by consumer standards (I guess Quark's holodeck can be excused though, being a greedy Ferengi), let alone a semi-military operation.

On a more trivial note, why do you think Federation chairs didn't get seat belts, until sometime around the creation of the Enterprise E? Note the captain of the very first Enterprise bitched about the lack centuries ago.
When you stop and think about it. It really is stupid. The federation is surrounded by hostile alien forces (cardasians, klingons, romulans etc) with large and powerful war fleets, yet they do not have the sense to build war ships or planetary defenses to protect their own systems from these threats.It sounds like you missed much of Deep Space Nine, especially the Dominion War (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Dominion_War). The Federation bulked up considerably, they always had orbital defenses, though some were antiquidated like the ones on Betazed, and they pulled an elaborate hoax, ending with the death of an Romulan senator, in order to get the species into the war without any real proof the Domion was a threat to the Romulan Empire. In short, they're bad (in a good way :smallsmile:).

On a trivial note, the USS Prometheus (NX-59650/NX-74913) (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/USS_Prometheus_(Prometheus_class)) was another ship designed solely for combat.

sikyon
2007-12-14, 03:40 PM
You miss my point. I meant, if a tech is as dangerous as the holodeck you make it safer no matter how many years, or how much techobabble one must invest.

I'm aware my views might be skewed. On the other hand, considering how dangerous the holodeck is, twice is too often. The first time the safety was removed due to some tech fluke, or the first time a sociopath was given sentience due to a verbal command, there should've been a massive overhaul of the tech to ensure such things don't happen again, yet the Federation in it's wisdom decided to "tough it out" for years. Note how the whole "tech go boom now safety down" still seemed to happen in the most advanced Federation starships, and oddly no one talkes about debugging the holodeck to prevent things like this. That's utterly idiotic by consumer standards (I guess Quark's holodeck can be excused though, being a greedy Ferengi), let alone a semi-military operation.

On a more trivial note, why do you think Federation chairs didn't get seat belts, until sometime around the creation of the Enterprise E? Note the captain of the very first Enterprise bitched about the lack centuries ago.

It's possible that you just can't forsee these incidences on the holodeck, or that in standard operation they are fine and the fact is that on the Enterprise, as the flagship, encounters so many more anomalies that it has a crazy anomalous rate of holodeck malfunctions. On extended missions, the holodeck is essential to crew moral, training, and therefore the risk is worth it. In normal scenarios, malfunctions rarely, rarely happen and therefore there's no point in disabling it.

It's like trying to protect against the unpredictable. You can try and make safeguards, but when you're travelling the cosmos there's so much you don't understand that any number of safeguards can be overcome in any number of ways.

Chairs don't have seatbelts because They usually arn't necessary and most of the injuries occur from exploding panels anyways.

WarriorTribble
2007-12-14, 03:59 PM
It's possible that you just can't forsee these incidences on the holodeck, or that in standard operation they are fine and the fact is that on the Enterprise, as the flagship, encounters so many more anomalies that it has a crazy anomalous rate of holodeck malfunctions. On extended missions, the holodeck is essential to crew moral, training, and therefore the risk is worth it. In normal scenarios, malfunctions rarely, rarely happen and therefore there's no point in disabling it.

It's like trying to protect against the unpredictable. You can try and make safeguards, but when you're travelling the cosmos there's so much you don't understand that any number of safeguards can be overcome in any number of ways.The sensible thing to do is simply not use the technology until it is stable enough. Excuses are irrelevant, in Voyager's canon a renegade hologram could potentially wipe out the entire ship. Sorry, but while a deep space exploration vessle needs entertainment, the epitome of imagination land is not worth potentially losing the ship. Holographic projectors should be limited to emergency situations like, well the EMH.
Chairs don't have seatbelts because They usually arn't necessary and most of the injuries occur from exploding panels anyways.I meant to say why the captain's chair doesn't have seatbelts cause that rank does fall off alot, but you do raise another issue of why consoles are designed to expel energy explosively instead of in other less dangerous ways, like melting, or burning.

doliest
2007-12-18, 11:12 PM
Favorite?

The Origional series

Forever.

Admittedly, I haven't seen Deep space nine or Voyager, but I can't find affordiable episodes. I mainly thought enterprise sucked because of what they tried to do with it. It mainly should have been about the Romulon war or maybe the klingon war-not what it was about.

Winterwind
2007-12-19, 09:18 AM
I'm... not exactly the greatest Star Trek fan around, to put it mildly, but I like the Original series for the most part (for it has sympathetic characters, a certain charme, and much less of a reliance on technobabble). I haven't seen Deep Space Nine ever since I have stopped watching Star Trek many years ago, but when I put forward my reasons why I dislike Star Trek people tell me that DS9 specifically avoided most of these points, so maybe I should watch it again - perhaps I would still enjoy this one.