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Executor
2007-12-07, 05:32 PM
Forget Sauron, forget the Lich King, forget Voldemort, it's time to see a REAL clash of titans.

http://www.fabbricantidiuniversi.it/tolkien/immagini/melkor.jpg
This is Morgoth Bauglir, first and greatest of the Valar, greater even that Sauron. It was he who first marred the world of Middle-earth with evil, he who first twisted the Elves into Orcs and the Ents into Trolls, he who corrupted the lesser Maiar into the Balrogs, he who first introduced Sauron to the power of evil.

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g169/war999/MotivationalPosters/EmperorCool.jpg
This is his opponent, the Immortal God-Emperor of Man, who led the Imperium on a Great Crusade and reunited humanity after a millenia of division.

Now, in a one on one combat in open ground, which each great warrior at the optimal level of power, who wins in this battle of gods? I say the God-Emperor. During his combat with the traitor Horus, he fought him and allowed Horus to beat him until he realized that Horus could not be saved. Then Horus died a horrible death. I don't Morgoth, though a God in his own right, can take him on.

Megalomaniac2
2007-12-07, 05:46 PM
I'm with you on the Emperor for the exact same reasons. Horus practically tore the Emperor apart... only because the Emperor had been holding back through the entire fight. Then the Emperor got mad, and despite his injuries was still able to destroy Horus down to the soul through sheer force of will just like that. Nothing like that on Morgoth's resume.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-12-07, 06:06 PM
According to outdated canon, the God-Emperor of Man is a fusion of ancient Earth Shamans. He can could the Astronomicon by himself, which now needs millions of psykers to replace him. He is amazingly powerful.
mpare someone who failed to conquor a single world to someone who conquored an entire galaxy?

Morgoth created orcs, The Emperor created Spa
Morgoth is quite powerful, but can you really coce Marines. Morgoth created Dragons and Balrogs, the Emperor created Primarchs. The Emperor has stronger rank and file minions but his high class generals are smaller in number than Morgoths.

Yet both ended up incapacitated and had to rely on their minions who squandered their legacies.

lipe44
2007-12-07, 08:03 PM
Morgoth didnt failed to conquer a world, he failed to conquer THE world.

Also he fought the Valar, whose are beings of extremely high power which like him cannot die...

Talkkno
2007-12-07, 10:09 PM
I would like to note the Primarchs as infants can swim in lava with ease.

Winterwind
2007-12-07, 11:23 PM
On the other hand, Morgoth participated in the creation of the world itself, and was the most powerful of a very small number of beings who did so, except for God (no need to avoid it, Eru Iluvatar is supposed to be the Christian God - making Morgoth Lucifer). And he was the one who wove an element of darkness into Creation. Surely, being the sole creator of all that is evil in the entire Universe counts for something, doesn't it?

Rutee
2007-12-07, 11:36 PM
I thought Middle Earth was just a singular world though...

DarthArminius
2007-12-07, 11:41 PM
It contains stars however. The moon has been stated as being a creation of Eru.

Rutee
2007-12-07, 11:46 PM
Hm, I see. Do we know if those stars actually, you know, have life?

I mean, I've read an awful lot of warhammer (That kinda crap is waaay too expensive to /play/ though. I can have just as much fun in much cheaper ways >.>). I am inclined to The God Emperor of Man... but it's a lolzpowerful setting.

Winterwind
2007-12-07, 11:46 PM
Middle-Earth is just a continent, actually; the world itself is called Arda. And in fact, it began as flat, and was reformed into a spherical planet only later by Eru.

Nevertheless, the song of creation of the Valar and Maiar encompasses all creation.

I mean, it is supposed to be an alternative creation myth, or rather, a variant of Genesis - how God and his angels shaped all that exists.

Rutee
2007-12-07, 11:53 PM
Well, does it make him responsible for more evil if there isn't evil out there?

Winterwind
2007-12-08, 12:02 AM
Um... I'm not sure whether I understand what you mean here...

The Silmarillion states pretty clearly that, by Morgoth's doing, Creation has been tainted, which is the sole reason why there is such a thing as evil whatsoever. Basically, all evil that has transpired since the dawn of time - including any evil in the real world, keep in mind Middle-Earth is supposed to be the real Earth's past - is Morgoth's responsibility. Sauron? Morgoth's fault. Hitler? Morgoth's fault. And Horus and the Chaos Gods, if WarHammer 40k is the continuation of our history? Morgoth's fault as well. All war, all pain, violence, despair, greed and all evil in the souls of all men. Morgoth's fault over and over again.

Rutee
2007-12-08, 12:05 AM
Well, they're not the same universe, so continuation of our history or not, he's not responsible for the Chaos Gods or other Warhammer fun.

But what I was saying is, if the only evil in the Tolkien-verse is really in Middle Earth, can you really claim credit for the creation of the universe's evil? I mean, if hypothetically, there's no evil anywhere else in the universe.. you're really just responsible for evil in that localized area.

Dervag
2007-12-08, 12:08 AM
Well, they're not the same universe, so continuation of our history or not, he's not responsible for the Chaos Gods or other Warhammer fun.

But what I was saying is, if the only evil in the Tolkien-verse is really in Middle Earth, can you really claim credit for the creation of the universe's evil? I mean, if hypothetically, there's no evil anywhere else in the universe.. you're really just responsible for evil in that localized area.Well, the world of Middle-Earth (again, more than the one continent) is the universe as far as we know. Tolkien doesn't flesh out other planets at all. However, if those other planets exist, and were created by the creator of the universe, then any evil that occurs in them is Morgoth's fault too.

Winterwind
2007-12-08, 12:11 AM
Well, they're not the same universe, so continuation of our history or not, he's not responsible for the Chaos Gods or other Warhammer fun.No, of course not.
I merely tried to clarify how completely, within Tolkien's universe, everything that is evil falls into Morgoth's responsibility.


But what I was saying is, if the only evil in the Tolkien-verse is really in Middle Earth, can you really claim credit for the creation of the universe's evil? I mean, if hypothetically, there's no evil anywhere else in the universe.. you're really just responsible for evil in that localized area.Who says that the only evil in the Tolkien-verse is in Middle Earth?
He has tainted all of creation; presumably, the cold dead rock formations on Pluto would look brighter and prettier, too, if it had not been for him. :smallwink:

Rutee
2007-12-08, 12:12 AM
Well, the world of Middle-Earth (again, more than the one continent) is the universe as far as we know. Tolkien doesn't flesh out other planets at all. However, if those other planets exist, and were created by the creator of the universe, then any evil that occurs in them is Morgoth's fault too.
True, but if no evil occurs, can you really claim credit for the occurence of evil there?

I mean, I know what happens when evil happens in the Tolkien-verse. It's Morgoth's fault, ultimately. But if there is 0 evil, can Morgoth claim responsibility for 0?

Winterwind
2007-12-08, 12:31 AM
*points to previous post as answer to that*

Anyhow. I think being solely responsible for all evil in the entire Creation is a feat that should not be underestimated, and I think it indicates that Morgoth would be a worthy opponent at the very least.

Since my knowledge of the God-Emperor is based solely on what I can infer from what I have read in other threads and posts concerned with WH40k, I won't make any statements regarding who would win or lose - and the accomplishments of the God-Emperor are impressive indeed, to say the least - but I think Morgoth would not go down easily.

Somebloke
2007-12-08, 04:48 AM
I think that at the very least Morgorth would end up running off somewhere to lick his wounds.

C Harnryd
2007-12-08, 05:28 AM
I assume that both Morgoth and the God-Emperor are within the normal range of power for active gods in polytheistic mythologies. One way of comparing relative strength is to examine what kind of creatures they are superior to in their respective universes.

Morgoth is described as being the most powerful entity in existence next to God, more powerful than any member of the Valar pantheon, including its ruler. He is impossible to kill and is only ever defeated by the combined forces of all the other gods.

Could someone with more knowledge of the WH40k universe than me analyze how powerful the God-Emperor is compared to the gods of his universe?

Artemician
2007-12-08, 05:31 AM
I assume that both Morgoth and the God-Emperor are within the normal range of power for active gods in polytheistic mythologies. One way of comparing relative strength is to examine what kind of creatures they are superior to in their respective universes.

Morgoth is described as being the most powerful entity in existence next to God, more powerful than any member of the Valar pantheon, including its ruler. He is impossible to kill and is only ever defeated by the combined forces of all the other gods.

Could someone with more knowledge of the WH40k universe than me analyze how powerful the God-Emperor is compared to the gods of his universe?

Frankly, I don't really buy this. I believe that a very strong counter to this kind of reasoning was raised in the Sauron vs LK thread. Something along the lines of the strongest ant in the world still being weaker to the 15th most powerful tank.

In comparing power, it is important that it is compared objectively, not subjectively. Even if Morgoth is stronger than Emu, Manwee and all the other Valar put together, it doesn't say anything about his strenght, unless you talk about how strong objectively those Valar are. It could just be that the Valar collectively are just weaker than the Chaos Gods and the C'tan.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-12-08, 06:44 AM
Could someone with more knowledge of the WH40k universe than me analyze how powerful the God-Emperor is compared to the gods of his universe?

Impossible to tell.

In WH40K you have;

The C'tan. Supreme Masters of the physical universe, with no power over the immaterial. They're more like sentient living creatures than gods, but their powers and exploits blur things slightly. Their armies are almost invincable though. The game stats for the C'tan are roughly equal with the most powerful demons though.

The Chaos Gods. The weakest and youngest Chaos God was created from the sins of an entire race of powerful psykers. They're armies are nigh infinate but their troops are powerful but can be too easily defeated by specialist demon hunters. The gods themselves are immeasurable since they have never left their home dimension.

The Gods of the Eldar. There's a lot of dispute about these. Some say they're just dead deified Eldar, some say they're chaos gods in disguise, some say they're members of a Precursor race. The Eldar legends put their gods as being roughly equal to the C'tan, and the avatars of their War God is about as strong as the most powerful demons the Chaos Gods can create.

The Orc gods, Gork and Mork. May also be chaos gods in disguise but have no real interaction with the world and may be entirely mythical. The orcs have an unconscious psychic gestalt that may make them real, but they may just have been made up by the orcs to explain psychic powers. The orcs also believe in a creator race called the "Brain Boyz" but don't worship them.

The Old Ones. May just have been a bunch of genetacists with no psychic power. They all got killed by the C'tan anyway.

So basically in the WH40K universe you have a bunch of powerful demons that can be killed by powerful humans but the real gods aren't measurable since they're distant from the physical universe.

GolemsVoice
2007-12-08, 07:40 AM
If you say both paries would stay around and fight until it's actually over (because it's not over 'till it's over!), which is something the God-Emperor of Man would do, but Morgoth maybe not, and both would be allowed to bring their respective armies, I think The Emperor would wind by the sheer fact that he has millions of worlds, starships, men and women that are willing/forced to die for him, advanced technology and such. And because the Imperium is such a superstitious place full of rituals, chantings, ancient ways and such, maybe the some of the blessed weaponry or mind-powers would actually hurt Morgoth, assuming he counts as a fallen god of evil, or a demon.
If you would just pitch both of them in a small cage, each with their own weapons, the fight would be much harder and longer. The Emperor is said to be the perfect swordsman, and he is outfitted with superior genetic material, technology, and an extremely powerfull force of will.
On the other side, Morgoth is not defenseless either. Though he is pictured clad only in what seems like a full plate, one can easily assume that he could not be hurt this easily, since he is some kind of god. He is also equipped with burning hate and an equally, if not more powerfull will.

factotum
2007-12-08, 07:44 AM
Surely, being the sole creator of all that is evil in
the entire Universe counts for something, doesn't it?

Except he didn't. Remember that Eru created Morgoth in the first place, and he explicitly says that Morgoth cannot do anything to spite the creation; in other words, he INTENDED Morgoth to "rebel".

C Harnryd
2007-12-08, 08:45 AM
Artemician: Using polytheistic gods in both universes for comparison is an attempt at objectivity while trying to keep things simple. And, yes, it canít hurt to define the powers of such beings (some form of immortality, some more-than-human control over the physical and spiritual parts of the universe, unique individuality, some kind of interest in mortals). The problem is rather whether such beings exist in both universes or not.

Closet Skeleton: OK, if there are no beings comparable to the Valar in WH40k, then my method isnít very usefulÖ :smallannoyed:

So, back to guesswork: Morgoth certainly canít be killed by the God-Emperor. But Morgothís physical form should be vulnerable (tough, but not impervious to harm). Iíve no idea how much he can hurt the God-Emperor, though.

Winterwind
2007-12-08, 08:50 AM
Except he didn't. Remember that Eru created Morgoth in the first place, and he explicitly says that Morgoth cannot do anything to spite the creation; in other words, he INTENDED Morgoth to "rebel".That's true - and he says he does this because, in the end, the Creation will come out all the stronger and more beautiful - but this does not change the fact at all. Morgoth still did, solely, weave the element of evil into the song of creation and taint all that exists. Whether Eru did expect him to do this or not does not change anything about this fact.

Arang
2007-12-08, 08:58 AM
As I recall Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch and Slaanesh were possessing Horus when he fought the Emperor and only left him because the Emperor would've taken them out while destroying Horus.

Yes. The Emperor is capable of destroying four gods simultaneously without even really trying.

Winterwind
2007-12-08, 09:02 AM
Wow. Okay, this does sound pretty convincing. I concede the point. Seems the Emperor indeed has the upper hand here.

lipe44
2007-12-08, 09:03 AM
Well, considering that in Arda the Gods(Valar) cannot be killed so it isnt really a good comparison.

Catch
2007-12-08, 09:43 AM
Well, considering that the Emperor is basically a half-dead cripple, I don't think he's going to be fighting anyone anytime soon.

Before that, well, of course he'd win. The Imperium is sort of Games Workshop's favorite child, and the Emperor is the Sue to end all Sues. Srsly.

....
2007-12-08, 12:31 PM
I think the question is if the God-Emperor could've taken on one of those C'thon things, or one of the Chaos gods. If so then I'm pretty sure he'd smash Morgoth to bits.

And if its a war, forget it. Marines would chew through orcs, then go fight orks for an actual challange.

EDIT: And you have to admit that living for a thousand years or so by consuming the minds of a couple hundered thousand psykers every day is...impressive.

Somebloke
2007-12-08, 02:51 PM
Didn't Moroth once get badly hurt by some giant spider-demon at one point? It doesn't look good for the original shadow lord.

lipe44
2007-12-08, 05:08 PM
Didn't Moroth once get badly hurt by some giant spider-demon at one point? It doesn't look good for the original shadow lord.

It was after he had lost most of his power creating races, fortress and whatever and also the Spider in question was a kind of energy eating creature, she had consumed theTwo Trees of Valinor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Trees_of_Valinor), Wells of Varda and also several gems of the Noldor. She was also a Maia.

Rutee
2007-12-08, 05:22 PM
And if its a war, forget it. Marines would chew through orcs, then go fight orks for an actual challange.
It's not. The OP explicitly states a duel, presumably because they're familiar enough with both settings to know that a war isn't a question.


Anyhow. I think being solely responsible for all evil in the entire Creation is a feat that should not be underestimated, and I think it indicates that Morgoth would be a worthy opponent at the very least.
I'm going to ask you a question that strikes me as irrelevant, but if you could humor me, that'd be wonderful;

What did Morgoth do, precisely, that corrupted the universe? I mean, I know something about a song, but that's it. Other question, why'd he do it?

Somebloke
2007-12-08, 05:22 PM
It was after he had lost most of his power creating races, fortress and whatever and also the Spider in question was a kind of energy eating creature, she had consumed theTwo Trees of Valinor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Trees_of_Valinor), Wells of Varda and also several gems of the Noldor. She was also a Maia.

Well, okay...

lipe44
2007-12-08, 05:30 PM
What did Morgoth do, precisely, that corrupted the universe? I mean, I know something about a song, but that's it. Other question, why'd he do it?

While the Valar were preparing Arda before the elves appeared he continuos attacked them, destroying each of their creations and finnaly making them leave Middle-Earth.

He did it because he wanted to control everything and/or destroy everything.



Well, okay...

You probably dont know how incredibly funny this was...

....
2007-12-08, 05:38 PM
As a side note, that picture of the God-Emperor is about ten trillion times cooler looking than the picture of Morgoth.

Somebloke
2007-12-08, 05:48 PM
As a side note, that picture of the God-Emperor is about ten trillion times cooler looking than the picture of Morgoth.That is going to be a factor, without a doubt.

I vaguely recall that Morgoth's discord was originally created by his attempts to impress God by meddling with creation, and mucking it up. Do we really want to award points for shoddy craftsmanship?

It all comes down to context- both are creators, both failed in their creation due to very different reasons- although I think that really, the Emperor came much, much closer to realising that dream. Plus, building an interstellar empire is a lot harder than wrecking a very small, very self contained universe.

Selrahc
2007-12-08, 06:08 PM
The God Emperor. Considering Morgoth was weakened to the point of impotence by the creation of a handful of races that the emperor could mop up in a few hours, and that the emperor is still considered outrageously powerful in a setting where the Death Star starts to look a little weedy.

In the 40K Hierachy of power, the Emperor is up there with the real big bads. The ones who eat planets for lunch, and doom civilizations for fun. He can rival the great C'Tan(I.E, the ones who aren't weedy like the Deceiver or incredibly weakened like the Nightbringer), and he can outright resist the Chaos Gods.

If he is on a level of power with them, and they could break the Lord of the Rings universe with casual ease, then I've got to say that the Emperor wins.

To resummarize then in a slightly different way. If the Jackal God, or the VoidDragon, or Khorne, or Tzeentch or Nurgle or Slaneesh were an active force in the Lord of the Rings universe, focussing more than a tiny fragment of their power on it, they would break it beyond repair. The Void Dragon could shatter planets and drain stars. Tzeentch could rip the world assunder in a warpflux of epic proportions. Slaneesh would break the minds of everyone on the planet simultaneously. Nurgle would destroy everything, it would rot and moulder and corrode, leaving just the immortals who would be dragged down by the monstrosities he would create. Khorne would either destroy the world, like the void dragon or crush it in a tide of blood and demons. Since the Emperor is on a power level akin to those beings, and Morogoth is not, the Emperor should be able to defeat Morgoth.

Arang
2007-12-08, 06:09 PM
It all comes down to context- both are creators, both failed in their creation due to very different reasons- although I think that really, the Emperor came much, much closer to realising that dream. Plus, building an interstellar empire is a lot harder than wrecking a very small, very self contained universe.

Well, the Emperor failed largely due to the Chaos Gods mucking with Horus if my memory serves, whereas Morgoth was just tripping himself up or destined to fail.

The Emperor has never lost a fight because he was outmatched. He has lost fights where he was not aiming to win and he's lost when he did not want to apply his full power for whatever reason (Horus) but when the time comes to take names there just isn't anyone to match the Emperor. Morgoth, on the other hand, has been in one fight against a mortal, which he only barely won. Granted, Morgoth isn't the kind of guy who ever looks at a mano-a-mano as the best way to solve things (he only did so for a personal challenge).

What I think it comes down to here is that these are two completely different power scales. The God-Emperor is one of the (if not the) most powerful beings in the WH40K universe and Morgoth is similar in Arda. What makes it so hard to decide is that WH40K is a universe of indestructible warrior robots and god-like genetically engineered engines of destruction, the Emperor is suitably buff and there are very few things capable of keeping up.

lipe44
2007-12-08, 06:11 PM
As a side note, that picture of the God-Emperor is about ten trillion times cooler looking than the picture of Morgoth.

Maybe these ones...

http://www.dor-lomin.org/multi/imag/felixsotomayor/tronomorgoth.jpg http://galeria.tolkienianos.com/data/media/84/Morgoth_and_Fingolfin.jpg http://meuovoesquerdo.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/fingolfinvsmorgoth.jpg

Somebloke
2007-12-08, 06:20 PM
Maybe these ones...

http://www.dor-lomin.org/multi/imag/felixsotomayor/tronomorgoth.jpg http://galeria.tolkienianos.com/data/media/84/Morgoth_and_Fingolfin.jpg http://meuovoesquerdo.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/fingolfinvsmorgoth.jpg

Sorry, but the emperor still wins.

lipe44
2007-12-08, 06:39 PM
Sorry, but the emperor still wins.

At least those have a better chance. The first image is kinda boring.

Kneenibble
2007-12-08, 07:25 PM
Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words, began to fashion the theme of Iluvatar to a great music; [...]

But now Iluvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; [...] Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren.

Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightaway discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound. But Iluvatar sat and harkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged. [...]

And it seemed at last that there were two musics progressing at one time before the seat of Iluvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern.

Later, Iluvatar speaks to the Ainur: "Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory." I offer these quotes partly to answer a couple of questions in this thread about Melkor's origins, and partly to demonstrate his original spheres of influence.

So I ask: when you proposed this thread, did you consciously choose to name Morgoth using that cursed name given to him by Feanor after he ganked the Two Trees with Ungoliant, as distinguished from Melkor, his true name as one of the Ainur? The former evokes his form as a tyrrant, powers diminished by his false creations and violent involvement in the physical world, and definitely not, as you say in outlining the contest, at his optimum power. The latter evokes his to-be-squandered divinity, and so observe the form he took when the Valar first "laboured together in the ordering of the Earth and the curbing of its tumults:"


His envy grew then the greater within him; and he also took visible form, but because of his mood and the malice that burned in him that form was dark and terrible. And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold.

If you mean Morgoth specifically, then I, even knowing nothing about the Warhammer universe, would likely concede the fight to the God-Emperor. Consider certain episodes in the Silmarillion like the duel with Fingolfin in which his power as a god is very clearly weakened. If, however, the being Melkor/Morgoth is at his optimum power when the world was still young, I'd give the win to him for being a huge-ass volcano.

Kneenibble
2007-12-08, 07:40 PM
And, by the way, there is only one inhabited planet in the Tolkienverse, and on those of you who dismiss Melkor's might based on the scale of his conflict, Tolkien has words.


Now the Children of Iluvatar are Elves and Men, the First-born and the Followers. And amid all the splendours of the World, its vast halls and spaces, and its wheeling fires, Iluvatar chose a place for their habitation in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the innumerable stars. And this habitation might seem a little thing to those who consider only the majesty of the Ainur, and not their terrible sharpness; as who should take the whole field of Arda for the foundation of a pillar and so raise it until the cone of its summit were more bitter than a needle; or who consider only the immeasurable vastness of the World, which still the Ainur are shaping, and not the minute precision to which they shape all things therein.

Melkor's power to dominate may seem petty compared to the descriptions of the God-Emperor's referenced in earlier posts, but as others than myself have countered, the scale of life in the Tolkienverse seems to be a great deal smaller. Melkor may have had trouble taking control of one little planet in the beginning, but he was working against fourteen of his peers for it and only it. That's the only part of the whole Universe any of them cared about. Granted, his later struggles once all the elves and men show up are even pettier, but the nature of his power at that point is discussed in my previous post.

That's what I think, anyways. At the height of his power, Melkor is not to be so casually written off.

Prophaniti
2007-12-08, 08:48 PM
First off, I have to say, this is so much better than that 'Sauron vs Voldemort' thread. At least this is a competition, rather than like watching a grown man beat a kindergartener.

My 2cp: If this is a purely physical cage-match, as stated in the op, then I'd probably give it to the Emperor as I believe he could, indeed destroy the physical form of Melkor, perhaps even at the height of his power when he first descended to Middle-Earth.

If this is a 'struggle to the bitter end', ie until one or the other is utterly destroyed, then it gets a little shakier. The God-Emperor does indeed have impressive power, the least of which is his physical prowess. Melkor, however, is the second most powerful being IN ALL EXISTANCE, which I believe does put him on a higher level than the Emperor (may he forgive my blasphemy). I believe this would either end in a stale-mate (with neither able to accomplish the complete destruction of the other) or with Melkor victorious.

warty goblin
2007-12-08, 10:41 PM
Ya'll are forgetting the Rules of the Internet Vs Thread, fantasy edition (the Sci-Fi edition includes Star Wars).

Rule 0: The Culture wins. Even if not involved, they win.
Rule 1: Warhammer 40,000 wins
Rule 2: Raistlin Majere wins
Rule 3: Melkor wins
Rule 4: Sauron wins
and so on, down to
Rule 12,204,654,173, part b: Eragon wins. Against what, nobody knows. Experimental ficto-physicists post the existance of "suark", the fundamental unit of suck. According to recent article in "Vs. Weekly", noted ficto-physicist W.G. Threadwinner postulated that according to his most recent calculations, Eragon = 1.00000000000001 suarks, or the worst fictional character yet measured.

NOTE: For other characters, the Modulated Index of Fictional Power (MIFP) is given by measuring the number of winatrons (the fundamental unit of win) and then subtracting the suark value of that character. For most awesome characters, this deviation is small enough that the winatron reading is enough. Similarly for Eragon, for whom no winatron reading has ever been managed, the suark reading is substitued for the MIFP as being "close enough for any sane person".

Executor
2007-12-08, 10:48 PM
No, no, no, you've got it all wrong.

The 10 Principles of Saint Executor, Patron of VS Threads

1. The Culture will beat you into a thin red mist
2. Anything from Games Workshop will beat you into a thin red paste
3. The Star Wars Galaxy will win
4. Morgoth will win
5. Cthulhu will win
6. Sauron will win
7. Voldemort will lose
8. Captain Kirk will win
9. Captain Picard might win
10. Eragon is EPIC FAIL

WNxHasoroth
2007-12-08, 11:29 PM
The duel between Horus and the Emperor was described of being full of destructive power capable of leveling planets. Horus, a demi-god, capable of crushing tanks with his fists was possessed by the four Chaos god, which embody different emotions but for simplicity's sake Slaanesh is pleasure, Nurgle is immortality (fear of death), Khorne is bloodlust, and Tzeentch is intellect.

Four gods in one demi-gods body, capable of destroying planets, was killed because The Emperor realized that his "son" had gone off the deep end and in one (count them, one), he vaporized Horus down to the soul and would have defeated the Chaos Gods too, if they hadn't run away faster then a French Border Guard.

That, is what we call, a god. Morgoth, cool as he is, doesn't really stand up to him.

Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins
2007-12-09, 12:29 AM
What did Morgoth do, precisely, that corrupted the universe? I mean, I know something about a song, but that's it. Other question, why'd he do it?

Having just given up trying to read the Book of Lost Tales, let me set you straight. Just prior to all of Creation unfolding all pretty like, as the Gods were singing away and thereby making Creation, Morgoth made tiny changes to his portion of the music so as to twist it to his ambitions. Of course, just like a crowd of people today, a couple others took up Morgoth's fashion of music, and then a few more.

Think of it like many people would today. In the middle of the choir someone starts singing a little differently and, inexplicably, you find yourself thinking along the lines of "Uh oh, am I singing correctly? Maybe he's right. Better follow his lead."

Anyway, thanks to this little twisting, he taints the whole batch and gets stuck with jurisdiction over all the evil he's just sown.

Then, yes, he tricked, fooled, fandangled, and spat on the other Gods on Arda itself and messed up a good deal of the earlier creations before he was chained up and forced to just fandangle and deceive. I didn't get too much farther, but that's basically it.

Kneenibble
2007-12-09, 01:05 AM
Mr. Fullbladder, I can't determine whether you're being meiotic, so I shall assume not and point you to the chunk of the Silmarillion I quoted above in response to that same question. Melkor's changes were anything but tiny. It's more like, the loudest baritone in the choir begins to shout death metal lyrics in the middle of Bach's Mass in b.

Well, sounds like some pretty messed up levels of power go down in Warhammer, Mr. WNx. I cite the case of scale again. Melkor did roam the Universe doing Iluvatar knows what before there was life on Arda and the other Valar were refining its details. While it's only speculation what the scope of his powers might have been in those early years, at least we can say that if he could have blown up a planet with fireballs and ice comets, he would not have; like the rest of the Ainur who entered the material universe, his primary interest was involvement with the children of Iluvatar, i.e. elves and men, a goal to which the destruction of the only planet in the Universe is counterproductive (and since the Universe was not Copernican at that time, I admit I am using the word planet er, figuratively).

After he scaled down his might to be able to act on that subtler platform, I repeat, I agree with you - no contest. But I repeat too that his might before that time is not a write-off, and I point back to my original question about the thread's use of the name Morgoth.

Dhavaer
2007-12-09, 01:08 AM
No, no, no, you've got it all wrong.

The 10 Principles of Saint Executor, Patron of VS Threads

1. The Culture will beat you into a thin red mist
2. Anything from Games Workshop will beat you into a thin red paste
3. The Star Wars Galaxy will win
4. Morgoth will win
5. Cthulhu will win
6. Sauron will win
7. Voldemort will lose
8. Captain Kirk will win
9. Captain Picard might win
10. Eragon is EPIC FAIL

So are the Xeelee at 0. on this? Or more like negative 10.?

Winterwind
2007-12-09, 01:14 AM
I'm going to ask you a question that strikes me as irrelevant, but if you could humor me, that'd be wonderful;

What did Morgoth do, precisely, that corrupted the universe? I mean, I know something about a song, but that's it. Other question, why'd he do it?The Universe was created, according to the Silmarillion, by means of a great song, sang by the Valar and the Maiar; the song became manifest as all of Creation.

Morgoth wove in a dissonance into the song, which became the basis for all evil.


While the Valar were preparing Arda before the elves appeared he continuos attacked them, destroying each of their creations and finnaly making them leave Middle-Earth.

He did it because he wanted to control everything and/or destroy everything.That was only after he had already tainted Creation.


So I ask: when you proposed this thread, did you consciously choose to name Morgoth using that cursed name given to him by Feanor after he ganked the Two Trees with Ungoliant, as distinguished from Melkor, his true name as one of the Ainur? The former evokes his form as a tyrrant, powers diminished by his false creations and violent involvement in the physical world, and definitely not, as you say in outlining the contest, at his optimum power. The latter evokes his to-be-squandered divinity, and so observe the form he took when the Valar first "laboured together in the ordering of the Earth and the curbing of its tumults:"I was wondering about this, too.

Executor
2007-12-09, 01:29 AM
Very well, know he will be referred to as Melkor, a Valar of awesome might, not Morgoth, the scarred and broken deity who was captured by Eonwe, a Maiar far less in power than even Sauron, and led away from Angband in chains.

Let the slaughter continue. And I must add one thing:

The Prime Principle of Saint Executor

No matter how hard you fight, no matter how far you run, no matter how clever or cunning you are, the Xeelee will destroy you so utterly and so completely that it will turn from war to genocide. The Xeelee. Cannot. Lose.

....
2007-12-09, 01:58 AM
The God-Emperor of Mankind is also a cooler name than Melkor/Morgoth.

Kneenibble
2007-12-09, 02:08 AM
The God-Emperor of Mankind is also a cooler name than Melkor/Morgoth.

Heh. Even knowing that Melkor means "He who arises in Might" and Morgoth means "the Dark Enemy of the World?"

Dhavaer
2007-12-09, 02:14 AM
Heh. Even knowing that Melkor means "He who arises in Might" and Morgoth means "the Dark Enemy of the World?"

Yes. qwerty

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-09, 02:15 AM
I'd have to go with the God-King, as far as straight up one-on-one combat. Morgoth won all the fights with mortals that I can recall, but none as one-sidedly as the God-Emperor.

I don't think the God-Emperor would actually be able to destroy Morgoth, though.

In terms of 'who has the cooler name', Melkor/Morgoth wins hands down though. The God-Emperor just has a cheesy title, as opposed to an actual cool name.

*note, Morgoth only loses the fight because Melkor spent a good portion of his power creating powerful minions like Dragons and Balrogs.

xanaphia
2007-12-09, 02:28 AM
I was debating this with a friend today. What a fluke.



In WH40K you have;

The C'tan. Supreme Masters of the physical universe, with no power over the immaterial. They're more like sentient living creatures than gods, but their powers and exploits blur things slightly. Their armies are almost invincable though. The game stats for the C'tan are roughly equal with the most powerful demons though.


C'tan vs Melkor? More specificially, the Nightbringer vs Melkor?

(Why I use Melkor, for those interested)
I say Melkor, because I make a point of ignoring what elves say. And by the way, shouldn't you have the right to choose your own name? I know, in this society your parents pick it. But you can change it later. Note that Elves cannot change it for you. I wonder if Melkor thought of himself as Mekor or Morgrath by the end of the war. It would be sad if he had changed the way he thought because of a few elves who got massacred in the war anyway.

Hmm. The Nightbringer is deadly, but not that dangerous from a safe distance. He can't really do much unless you end up in close combat. Melkor is bigger (twice as tall) and pretty damn deadly. I'd go for Melkor.

The Nightbringer is the single strongest (non-vehicle) thing in the 40k universe. He is not as strong as Melkor. But I don't really know how strong the Emperor is.

I just looked on Wikipedia about Melkor. Apart from the title of the article being Morgoth Bauglir (which annoyed me, see above spoiler) I learnt that Melkor was WAY more powerful than the Morgoth at the end of the First Age. The starting post says height of their power, so I use Melkor in the above comparison.

Kneenibble
2007-12-09, 03:01 AM
Xanaphia, when Melkor captured Hurin and began his torture, he said to him: "Sit now there; and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come upon those whom thou lovest. Thou hast dared to mock me, and to question the power of Melkor, Master of the fates of Arda."

The narrative refers to him most often as Morgoth after the elves christen him thus, and I can't find any other direct speech from Melkor. Still, the above passage suggests that your concerns about his sense of identity may rest.

GolemsVoice
2007-12-09, 06:34 AM
If you ould aplly W40K "laws" on Melkor/Morgoth, which is of course just a presumption, it might even be possible for the emperor to focus his psyker-powers to destroy Morgoths immortal, nonphysical form forever.
Think about it. Every day the Emperor, in his weakened state, consumes the souls of hundreds of psykers, and focuses this power as a beacon through the warp. Both actions require tremendous strength, both physical and mental. First, psyker-power wracks the body and the mind, and that would, for some reason, channel more power than it's mind and body can bear would find a horrible end. The Emperor does this for breakfast. Literally. Second, he then sends his mind out into the warp, a realm known for it's absolute insanity and ability to corrupt and destroy. One could argue that, by focusing the astronomican, the Emperor also presents his mind to the hungry beings that dwell in the warp. None of those has thus far managed to attack him.

And also, W40K features a much larger scale of power, one that is open at the top. Planetkilling was mentioned, the twisting of physics and such things just for amusement, the creating and controlling of multitudes of demons. Example? Abaddon, the Herald of the Chaos gods, controlls a ship that, as far as I know, is able to tear planets asunder. And remember, while Abaddon is certainly no small fish, he's just a fly compared to the God-Emperor.

Selrahc
2007-12-09, 06:40 AM
The Nightbringer is the single strongest (non-vehicle) thing in the 40k universe. He is not as strong as Melkor. But I don't really know how strong the Emperor is.


Hes not even that. There are some real funky greater Daemons, and tyranid Bio titans. However, the current nightbringer is not anywhere near his peak. This is the nightbringer after two devastating defeats and billions of years of starvation, before he has had a chance to gather his true power again.

The true Nightbringer would be unkillable on a 40K battlefield. You'd need to go at least Epic, or more probably Battlefleet Gothic to fight him.



I'd give the win to him for being a huge-ass volcano.

A big volcano? thats his ace in the hole? That seems like a volcano that would very swiftly become rubble.

Winterwind
2007-12-09, 07:06 AM
Of course, if we look at destroying things, Melkor manages to make the creation of the stars, the sun and the moon necessary, by destroying first the lanterns which were supposed to serve as lights for the world (which causes the Valar to create the Two Trees to serve as light for the holy land, and stars to lighten the way to the holy land for the races who may awaken away from it), and subsequently destroying the Two Trees (or creating a creature who does so, anyway), forcing the Valar to use what little light is left of the trees to make such an inadequate replacement as the Sun and the Moon.

Planets? Bah. Melkor destroys things of greater beauty and power, for which stars are only a poor replacement.

As for the name, in my subjective perception Melkor (and especially Morgoth) wins hands down. First, Morgoth is much cooler sounding to begin with. Second, it is an actual name, not a title. And third, it's original, instead of being ripped of from Dune. :smallamused:

Artemician
2007-12-09, 07:26 AM
Golemsvoice.. you're giving the Emperor too little credit.

As to creation: The Emperor created and maintains the Astronomican, a Psychic beacon of such power that it can be detected, and calculations taken from it 55 000 light years away from Terra. The God-Emperor fuels and directs the beam with purely his own fathomless psychic power. The ten thousand were used as a temporary power source, so that the Emperor could devote more of his time and energy to the development of the Imperial Webway, which would have rendered the Astronomican obselette.

Then of course, the Horus Heresy happened.. and the Emperor was not the same Man again. But before he was crippled, he shouldered the burden of fuelling the Astronomican alone.

And as to destruction, the God-Emperor, weakened to a state of near-death by Horus, could still crush his will, and deliver to him a fatal blow, even with the four Chaos Gods backing him up. The God-Emperor fears no demon, even in his crippled state, the Warp has not managed to attack him, in his health, it is not likely that he is any weaker (quite the opposite, in fact, for obvious reasons).

Dervag
2007-12-09, 07:35 AM
Frankly, I don't really buy this. I believe that a very strong counter to this kind of reasoning was raised in the Sauron vs LK thread. Something along the lines of the strongest ant in the world still being weaker to the 15th most powerful tank.

In comparing power, it is important that it is compared objectively, not subjectively. Even if Morgoth is stronger than Emu, Manwee and all the other Valar put together, it doesn't say anything about his strenght, unless you talk about how strong objectively those Valar are. It could just be that the Valar collectively are just weaker than the Chaos Gods and the C'tan.Yes, but you could argue the other way around just as well.

Once we ignore the assumption that the 'baseline' power levels of two universes are equal (i.e. that powerful beings in each universe are on roughly the same scale), then there's no intelligent basis for debate.


So, back to guesswork: Morgoth certainly canít be killed by the God-Emperor. But Morgothís physical form should be vulnerable (tough, but not impervious to harm). Iíve no idea how much he can hurt the God-Emperor, though.Well, from what I'm hearing (I am utterly unfamiliar with Warhammer and utterly unfamiliar with the Silmarillion-era Arda setting), the God-Emperor's skill at arms would be at least on par with, if not greater than, that of the elven heroes who posed great challenges to Morgoth in physical combat. So it is quite plausible that he could defeat Morgoth in physical combat, if some great hero of the elven lands could do so in the Silmarillion.


As I recall Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch and Slaanesh were possessing Horus when he fought the Emperor and only left him because the Emperor would've taken them out while destroying Horus.

Yes. The Emperor is capable of destroying four gods simultaneously without even really trying.I think that it would be fair to say that he was really trying from reading the descriptions I looked up because of this discussion.

Also, there are a lot of Chaos Gods. As such, if we assume that the power in both universes is distributed more or less equally, then those Chaos Gods would probably have roughly the same individual spirital power levels as the weaker Maiar, possibly less. Which still makes the God-Emperor a tough fight for Morgoth, but not necessarily an impossible one.


It's not. The OP explicitly states a duel, presumably because they're familiar enough with both settings to know that a war isn't a question.Seeing as how one setting has machine guns, tanks, and laser cannons and the other doesn't, that strikes me as a good approach to take.


The duel between Horus and the Emperor was described of being full of destructive power capable of leveling planets. Horus, a demi-god, capable of crushing tanks with his fists was possessed by the four Chaos god, which embody different emotions but for simplicity's sake Slaanesh is pleasure, Nurgle is immortality (fear of death), Khorne is bloodlust, and Tzeentch is intellect.

Four gods in one demi-gods body, capable of destroying planets, was killed because The Emperor realized that his "son" had gone off the deep end and in one (count them, one), he vaporized Horus down to the soul and would have defeated the Chaos Gods too, if they hadn't run away faster then a French Border Guard.

That, is what we call, a god. Morgoth, cool as he is, doesn't really stand up to him.I think the point made above is relevant- that Arda (the world of Middle-Earth) may be the only world relevant to Tolkien's setting, but that is because the gods of that setting are focusing on the construction of that world and that world alone. Therefore, it is the focus of all divine power in its universe, as opposed to merely being a petty battleground for the divinities of one world among many. The fact that the divinities in question appear to be creating and operating on a limited scale doesn't tell us how much supernatural power they have. If they were spread out through the universe and building billions or trillions of worlds, it would probably be possible for the Maiar to wield enough power to destroy planets the way the Chaos Gods can and do. As it is, the ratio of force to space is constrained, and so the result is a sort of metaphysical trench warfare. The advances and retreats are on a tiny scale (regions of one world in the universe) not because the combatants are weak, but because they are very strong and more or less evenly matched.

So even though/if they could break Arda into itty bitty little pieces by sheer magical power, it would be absurd for them to do so.

Although, again, I think the God-Emperor would win a cage match.


Melkor's changes were anything but tiny. It's more like, the loudest baritone in the choir begins to shout death metal lyrics in the middle of Bach's Mass in b.That is such a funny image.

....
2007-12-09, 10:54 AM
I think the fact that the Emperor has no name is much cooler tan Melkor/Morgoth.

He's transcended the need for a name, I wonder if he even remembers it? He simply is the God-Emperor of Mankind.

And back to the fight, Melkor, for all his power, always had to destroy things physically. Hell, he needed help to destroy the trees and almost got killed by Ungoliant afterward. The Emperor can use his insane psyker powers to flay a man alive without lifting a hand. He'd blast Melkor to bits before Melkor was in melee range.

lipe44
2007-12-09, 11:13 AM
I think the fact that the Emperor has no name is much cooler tan Melkor/Morgoth.

He's transcended the need for a name, I wonder if he even remembers it? He simply is the God-Emperor of Mankind.

And back to the fight, Melkor, for all his power, always had to destroy things physically. Hell, he needed help to destroy the trees and almost got killed by Ungoliant afterward. The Emperor can use his insane psyker powers to flay a man alive without lifting a hand. He'd blast Melkor to bits before Melkor was in melee range.

Again, that would be Morgoth not Melkor.

C Harnryd
2007-12-09, 11:26 AM
And back to the fight, Melkor, for all his power, always had to destroy things physically.
I don't think the metaphysical song he used to warp the universe before it existed could proves that he has abilities way beyond the physical world.

....
2007-12-09, 11:44 AM
I don't think the metaphysical song he used to warp the universe before it existed could proves that he has abilities way beyond the physical world.

He couldn't do that alone, though. Eru started the song, and the other Valar helped. Once reality existed, you didn't see him singing anything into oblivion.

lipe44
2007-12-09, 01:18 PM
He couldn't do that alone, though. Eru started the song, and the other Valar helped. Once reality existed, you didn't see him singing anything into oblivion.

That would be very sad... Singing all your life?

C Harnryd
2007-12-09, 03:47 PM
He couldn't do that alone, though. Eru started the song, and the other Valar helped. Once reality existed, you didn't see him singing anything into oblivion.
True. He only destroyed when there was something to destroy and we usually don't get much descriptions on exactly how he does it. A lesser being like Sauron uses song at least once as a weapon, though.