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Efil
2007-12-08, 04:35 PM
I am wondering if a rogue using improved feint for sneak attacking in combat is a viable option? Is improvements possible?

Yuki Akuma
2007-12-08, 04:41 PM
It's a good backup if you have no one to flank with and don't have a ring of blinking or something.

It's not a very good idea to use it as your main source of sneak attack, though.

geek_2049
2007-12-08, 04:41 PM
Yeah, check out Invisible Blade in Complete Warrior.

tyckspoon
2007-12-08, 04:44 PM
It works well enough, especially at low levels, but I wouldn't recommend it as a higher level main tactic. Eventually you want to be getting Sneak Attack on a full attack, which can't be provided when you're using your move action to feint. Using Improved Feint also means you're in melee with something and only getting one attack.. if you can't kill it in that one attack, it's probably going to full attack you back. Chances are you're squishier than whatever you're fighting; it's not a good trade.

Zenos
2007-12-08, 04:49 PM
Maybe viable in a gestalt game where you played as a rogue with some full BaB and D10 or higher hit dice class as the other part of the gestalt and were fighting in duels.

Efil
2007-12-08, 05:07 PM
Thanks for the advice.

loopy
2007-12-08, 05:27 PM
Honestly, my Improved Feint has enabled game winning sneak attack damage on my wand of scorching ray. Pretty awesome.

Triaxx
2007-12-08, 05:55 PM
It's also helpful if you can't flank due to terrain difficulties. Say fighter in front, rogue on the side. Fighter can use a single attack, then feint. Rogue goes and sneak attacks with his full attack. Not so helpful if they recover in time, or if it's a wizard.

Oracle_Hunter
2007-12-08, 06:03 PM
Just a little bit from the SRD:


If your Bluff check result exceeds your targetís Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

Only the user of the Feint can gain its benefit, and the attack that uses the Feint must be a melee attack.

That said, I think that Improved Feint + Sneak Attack is a fine way to go if you have to be one of the front-line fighters (say, in a small party), particularly at lower levels. Depending on your battles, flanks may not always be available, and that sweet, sweet sneak attack damage can be brutal if you are built to do some combat.

Of course, if you're more of a Spring Attacking kind of guy, give the combo a pass.

Person_Man
2007-12-08, 10:38 PM
No, it is not. Even with Improved Feint, its a Move action. So you can't Feint and make a full attack. Also, even if you're an Invisible Blade and gain the ability to Feint as a Swift action, it only applies to your next attack. Not every attack that round. There's a feat in Drow of the Underdark called Suprising Riposte that allows it to apply to every attack that round if you hit on the first attack. But even that is an unreliable method.

Here's a list of ways to qualify for Sneak Attack you might find helpful. Notice where I list Improved Feint:



1) Win Initiative: A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act.

2) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures.

3) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap.

4) Still More Flanking: Invest in a lot of Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

5) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat. If he doesn't, buy a wand and use UMD.

6) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat to ignore your 20% miss chance.

7) Skill Tricks: Check out the Complete Scoundrel.

8) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

9) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

10) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

11) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

12) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members.

13) Hide in Plain Site: A dip into Warlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) and let's you Hide in Plain Site every round as a Swift action via . This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

14) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat, it works for a full attack if you hit on your first attack.

Ganurath
2007-12-08, 10:50 PM
No, it is not. Even with Improved Feint, its a Move action. So you can't Feint and make a full attack. Also, even if you're an Invisible Blade and gain the ability to Feint as a Swift action, it only applies to your next attack. Not every attack that round. There's a feat in Drow of the Underdark called Suprising Riposte that allows it to apply to every attack that round if you hit on the first attack. But even that is an unreliable method.

Here's a list of ways to qualify for Sneak Attack you might find helpful. Notice where I list Improved Feint:



1) Win Initiative: A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act.

2) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures.

3) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap.

4) Still More Flanking: Invest in a lot of Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

5) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat. If he doesn't, buy a wand and use UMD.

6) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat to ignore your 20% miss chance.

7) Skill Tricks: Check out the Complete Scoundrel.

8) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

9) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

10) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

11) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

12) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members.

13) Hide in Plain Site: A dip into Warlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) and let's you Hide in Plain Site every round as a Swift action via . This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

14) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat, it works for a full attack if you hit on your first attack.You forgot Spot and Listen. Being able to act in the surprise round, especially combined with winning initiative, gives you all sorts of fun. Quick Reconnoiter (sp?) in Complete Adventurer works toward both.

Chancellor
2007-12-08, 11:23 PM
So would ya'll consider Improved Feint a waste of a feat for a Rogue?

Riffington
2007-12-08, 11:26 PM
It's fine before full attacks become the way to damage though... so if your game only goes to level 8ish it's a fine feat.

TheOOB
2007-12-08, 11:41 PM
Grease also serves as a good low level way to provoke sneak attacks. Unless you have 5 or more ranks in balance you are flat footed while making balance checks. Not many people have 5 or more ranks in balance.

Jack Zander
2007-12-09, 01:10 AM
Improved feint isn't a waste of a feat to use in backup situations either. You really don't want to be spending a full round action to feint then attack on the next turn. However, this idea only works if your build isn't feat heavy. Otherwise don't bother to feint. Ever.

Level 1 human rogue with combat expertise and improved feint is good. It slowly gets worse and worse until flanking is just so much a better option past level 8. Although feints against Will-O-Whisps (and other super high dex monsters) are probably the easiest way to take them down (provided you've got improved feint and sneak attack).

....
2007-12-09, 02:03 AM
My rogue/swashbucker had Imp Feint.

But of course, thats hardly a min/maxed build anyway.

Pureflight
2007-12-09, 03:03 AM
I played a Spellthief/Invisible Blade who used feint a lot. Feint and then take all the casters spells and stuff with one attack. It doesn't matter much if they're still up after that because what are they gonna do? hit you with the staff that they aren't proficent with?

Attilargh
2007-12-09, 04:15 AM
Most casters are proficient with quarterstaffs. Including, but probably not limited to the Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer and Druid.

Is the Beguilers' class ability that lets one feint as a swift action any good?

Mewtarthio
2007-12-09, 04:20 AM
Most casters are proficient with quarterstaffs. Including, but probably not limited to the Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer and Druid.

Not to mention the fact that a Wizard generally doesn't so much "hit you with the staff" as he does "use the magic of the staff to melt your face off, since Spelltheives can't drain magic from items."


Is the Beguilers' class ability that lets one feint as a swift action any good?

I imagine that's built in as a contingency, just in case your Beguiler gets cornered. They've got class features to make spells stronger against opponents denied Dex to AC, right?

Attilargh
2007-12-09, 04:29 AM
Yup, a minor bonus to the DC and rolls to pierce SR. I just checked, and the ability also applies to the next spell the beguiler casts, but he must remain in melee and cast defensively.

Zenos
2007-12-09, 05:41 AM
I just want to say, since I often DM for Efil, that I like to put my players in tight corridors five or ten feet across. Might hinder the flanking stuff, although greater invisibility seems like the best way to go, if you max your move silently check.

Riffington
2007-12-09, 06:33 AM
.

Is the Beguilers' class ability that lets one feint as a swift action any good?

Well, unless it's a weird rogue/beguiler build, they're going to be using it for higher Save DC rather than for extra sneak attack dice. So feinting as swift rather than move action mostly just lets you move (how many full round spells they really got). In which case Mobile Spellcaster is often better/sometimes worse.

Pironious
2007-12-09, 06:38 AM
Also, even if you're an Invisible Blade and gain the ability to Feint as a Swift action, it only applies to your next attack. Not every attack that round.


Actually, it's listed as a free action, not a swift. So you should be able to feint before each attack in a full attack, unless I'm mistaken.

Zenos
2007-12-09, 06:43 AM
Hm, yes, although the DM (which would, in Efil's case, be me) could limit the amount of free actions he can do, it is explicitly stated in the Player's handbook.

Tengu
2007-12-09, 06:52 AM
Actually, it's listed as a free action, not a swift. So you should be able to feint before each attack in a full attack, unless I'm mistaken.

It was errata'ed into a swift action.

Zenos
2007-12-09, 06:56 AM
If he wants to use it in one of my games, I would be ok with it if he wanted a fightier rogue.

Skjaldbakka
2007-12-09, 07:44 AM
I'd say Improved Feint isn't really worth it if the game is going past 8th level. At 9th level, the rogue is giving up potentially 4 attacks to get one feint+attack, as you hit your iterative at 8, and are thus eiligible for I2WF at 9th level.

That being said, I haven't been in a game that ran past 8th level for awhile (barring the odd one-shot or PbP game that starts at that level).

Funkyodor
2007-12-10, 04:57 AM
If it's a DM that enjoys giving class levels to stuff at higher lvls (lvl 10 Barbarian kobolds and the like), it could be good if the enemies have Improved Uncanny Dodge or some such abilities. Two or three attacks at 1d6 (or 2d6 with magic or whatever) per hit do not equal one attack at maximum attack bonus plus Sneak Attack at un-dexified AC.

Keld Denar
2007-12-10, 08:33 AM
A Belt of Battle (MIC) can be used to trade swift actions for move actions. This gives you a free move action 3 times a day to use for improved feinting. 12k + feat and and you still only get sneak on the 1st attack anyway is kind of a bad investment though. Its still an option.

The belt would probably be better used by burning all 3 charges to get an extra full round when flanking to get 2 full round attacks with sneak attacks rather than 3 rounds of 1 sneak with the rest non-sneak attacks. Still, gives you some versitility.

And the Belt of Battle would probably serve the party arcane caster better. Fear getting hit by Evards Black Tentacles AND Solid Fog in the opening round of combat. It happened to me yesterday. It sucked a lot. Add fireballs, and my party of 6 10th level characters almost got soloed by a level 12 wizard. But that's a different story.