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View Full Version : Darth Vader vs. Decepticons



Eerie
2007-12-11, 11:51 AM
Another great pairing.

The Decepticons as they are seen in the movie (other depictions are horribly lame anyway) are duplicated into the Star Wars universe, short before the beginning of Episode 4. No one knows about their arrival. We also assume that they don`t have the All Spark\Creation Matrix\Whatever Wacky I-WIN Buttons.

Will they be able to take over the world?

Tallis
2007-12-11, 12:10 PM
No. They might have an initial advantage since they couldn't be directly sensed with the force, but once they made themselves known th empire could most likely detect them and would definitely outnumber, outgun, and overpower them. (Yay for run-on sentences!)
They win on modern day Earthbecause of their vastly superior tech. They wouldn't have that advantage in the Star Wars universe.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-11, 12:16 PM
I would have to say the decepticons would win, based on the follwing premise:

Arriving in the SW universe, they would duplicate common vehicles. To keep parity with the film, I would say Megatron, Starscream and Blackout would end up as TiE-Fighters of one variation or another, or possibly as a Shuttle in the case of Blackout. The rest I would see as some form of Imperial ground vehicles. And Frenzy would be one of those shoebox on wheels droids that always tooled around the Death Star.

Technologically and mechanically speaking, the Decepticons are far more advanced than the Empire, which seems to entirely lack internal sensors. I think it would be fairly easy for Megatron and company to infiltrate and hack the Death Star's internal controls, at which poit they should be able to just expose the inside of it to vacuum and kill most, if not all, life on board.

Dealing with Vader is a guessing game, at best. I think solo it might be an even fight, but with more than one decepticon, Vader dies. Vader is weak compared to his abilities as Anakin and Anakin was a bit better than Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan only barely defeated General Grievous, who, compared to Megatron, sucked. Jedi are impressive against normal blasters, but agaisnt things like Blackout's wave of doom and the various other weapon systems of the Decepticons. Vader is good, he ain't that good though.

Eerie
2007-12-11, 12:34 PM
I wonder if the Decepticons will try to join the rebels. They are Decepticons, after all...

PS. I love completely opposite opinions in the first two posts. :smallbiggrin:

Adumbration
2007-12-11, 12:39 PM
Decepticons would definitely win if they had this. (http://www.firebox.com/product/1981?src_t=cat&src_id=retro)

Eerie
2007-12-11, 12:50 PM
Decepticons would definitely win if they had this. (http://www.firebox.com/product/1981?src_t=cat&src_id=retro)

No, that is what happens if they win. :smallsmile:

Prophaniti
2007-12-11, 12:51 PM
lol, yep, that's what they'd do. Turn the Deathstar into one of their own. Game over.

Btw, this is one of the most random vs threads I've yet encountered.

psiryu
2007-12-12, 08:40 AM
Think yourself lucky that I don't smit you now for speaking well of that abomination that is the transformers movie (I presume you mean the CGI one that was realised a few months ago any old cartoon movie is great).

Really, I think Vader has a chance. You must remember that the Decepticons has worse accuracy than a Stormtrooper fresh out of how-to-miss-a-Star Destroyer-when-your-standing-two-feet-from-it school. Of course this could be nulled as Vader is not a good guy so the Decepticonsí accuracy might be a bit better. So if the Decepticonsí accuracy is half decent than one hit with Megatonís cannon and Vader will be blown into hundreds of small tiny pieces.

Winterwind
2007-12-12, 09:35 AM
Well... my past experience with Versus threads has taught me one thing.

Never underestimate the munchkinness of the Star Wars universe.

Yes, the WarHammer 40k universe beats it. And the Culture beats everything.
But beyond that, there is very little capable of going up against a universe where standard issue naval cannons bear similar firepower in each blast as the heaviest nuclear bombs ever built, and which unites millions of inhabited worlds under one banner.

Transformers are sturdy, but not this sturdy, and their numbers are too small. Sooner or later, they are going to get hit, and they won't survive that.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-12, 10:27 AM
Right, but in every instance that we see the Empire in Star Wars, it is clear that they have very little in terms of sensors and means of detection. What this means is that the Decepticons, who rely on stealth, will easily be able to infiltrate the Empire. According to the movie backstory, the Decepticons were successfully infiltrating for some time, before deciding that Earth defenses were unable to be of use against them. Also, from Star Wars lore, there is very little in terms of actual anti-hacking measures. ECM and ECCM are virtually non-existant in SW, whereas the Decepticons have it in spades.

The Decepticons would not just square off with the whole Empire and give them a fair fight, they would infiltrate, find the key points and crush them.

Talkkno
2007-12-12, 02:51 PM
Right, but in every instance that we see the Empire in Star Wars, it is clear that they have very little in terms of sensors and means of detection. What this means is that the Decepticons, who rely on stealth, will easily be able to infiltrate the Empire. According to the movie backstory, the Decepticons were successfully infiltrating for some time, before deciding that Earth defenses were unable to be of use against them. Also, from Star Wars lore, there is very little in terms of actual anti-hacking measures. ECM and ECCM are virtually non-existant in SW, whereas the Decepticons have it in spades.

The Decepticons would not just square off with the whole Empire and give them a fair fight, they would infiltrate, find the key points and crush them.

...Every fighter worth there salt carries some type of ECM, besides they have nuclear weapons as starfighter grade weaponary. The Death Star's jamming was good enough to warp space time.....

....
2007-12-12, 06:08 PM
Decepticons would definitely win if they had this. (http://www.firebox.com/product/1981?src_t=cat&src_id=retro)

http://www.unicron.us/tf2003/cartoonpix/unicron1a.jpg

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-13, 08:20 AM
...Every fighter worth there salt carries some type of ECM, besides they have nuclear weapons as starfighter grade weaponary. The Death Star's jamming was good enough to warp space time.....

Uh, sure...

So, um, not even the hardcore fanboy websites I can find list either one as having particularly awesome ECM/ECCM.

I find it a little difficult to believe that the TiE Fighter, supposedly one of the cheapest made fighters in Galactic history, so cheap it carries no shields or ejection seats, is going to have super powerful and advanced ECM/ECCM suite.

Xuincherguixe
2007-12-13, 09:14 AM
Got to go to the Decepticons. Sure they don't have a chance in a regular fight, but they've demonstrated at least some level of planning ability. The Empire hasn't.

Emperor Ing
2007-12-13, 09:21 AM
The Empire has mile-long capital ships, THOUSANDS of them. As soon as The Empire detect them with their effective scanners,
the empire will definitely outnumber, outgun, and overpower them.
Indeed. Not to mention im certain AT-AT heavy blasters are VERRY effective against 30 foot robots.

Eerie
2007-12-13, 10:22 AM
their effective scanners,

What scanners?

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-13, 10:59 AM
The Empire has mile-long capital ships, THOUSANDS of them. As soon as The Empire detect them with their effective scanners,
Indeed. Not to mention im certain AT-AT heavy blasters are VERRY effective against 30 foot robots.

Wow! Mile long capital ships!!! They sure are super effective at catching the Millenium Falcon. And those advanced sensors were really good at tracking the Falcon after it landed on them.....

Hrrm.... maybe giant spaceships *aren't* that effective at tracking very small things?

Maybe the Decepticons would be, I dunno, disguised as TiE Fighters?

I think they would just land on board those precious mile long ships and go buck wild.

What AT-ATs?

Why do you even think it would go that far? The Decepticons would take them in space where they would have the greater advantage. They would attack with surprise and stealth, because unlike the Empire they aren't tooling around in mile long ships. At least up until they captured their first star destroyer.

Eerie
2007-12-13, 11:58 AM
Think yourself lucky that I don't smit you now for speaking well of that abomination that is the transformers movie (I presume you mean the CGI one that was realised a few months ago any old cartoon movie is great).

Huh? The movie is beautiful. Transformers actually look like real alien robots there, rather then toys.

lipe44
2007-12-13, 12:24 PM
Huh? The movie is beautiful. Transformers actually look like real alien robots there, rather then toys.

Yes but the film is just too much action, common it barely have an history, not that i am complaining but you cant really see an history on it...

Revlid
2007-12-13, 12:24 PM
Huh? The movie is beautiful. Transformers actually look like real alien robots there, rather then toys.

Or badly-glued together Rubix Cubes.

I loved the movie, and I hate the ridiculous escalation of the Star Wars universe (largely due to technically canon novels written by authors with no understanding of physics or practicality, and the need to make their threat teh biggest!), and I'll give this to the Transformers purely because I don't see how the Empire will take them out.

Eerie
2007-12-13, 12:51 PM
Yes but the film is just too much action, common it barely have an history, not that i am complaining but you cant really see an history on it...

History? It is a movie about giant fighting alien robots. Who need history there?

....
2007-12-13, 12:54 PM
Yes but the film is just too much action, common it barely have an history, not that i am complaining but you cant really see an history on it...

Its a movie about giant shapeshifting robots.

All you need is action and explosions.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

Tyrant
2007-12-13, 02:18 PM
Or badly-glued together Rubix Cubes.

I loved the movie, and I hate the ridiculous escalation of the Star Wars universe (largely due to technically canon novels written by authors with no understanding of physics or practicality, and the need to make their threat teh biggest!), and I'll give this to the Transformers purely because I don't see how the Empire will take them out.

I think eveyone is severely overestimating the Transformers. These are machines that have been beaten, or reasonably dealt with, by GIJoe and Cobra. Both of whom were able to at least somewhat reverse engineer them to create new weapons. Cobra infact provided a major upgrade to Megatron, who had come out of hiding because he mistakenly believed Destro's shape shifting castle was another Transformer. Earth based tech with no connection to the Autobots or Decepticons was mistaken for one of them. The Empire may not have many sensors or very good ones, but if Megatron can be fooled that easily I would say their sensors aren't so hot either. I am sure the Empire can cook up some shape shifting device to sucker them into an ambush. So, if Cobra Commander (who is about a 100000 times better at being a villain in the comic book as opposed to the cartoon, but still) can deal with the Decepticons, I believe Vader and the Empire will have no major problems after first contact. The Decepticons only hope is to go undetected long enough to cripple the Empire from within. If they blow that, I believe they stand no chance. If they have Unicron (and why would they, he's non aligned) then their odds increase a little. I am fairly certain one Death Star blast will do him in.


Edit to add:
Of course there is always the philosophy that if you can't beat them, join them
http://www.hasbro.com/default.cfm?page=ps_results&product_id=19856
Let's see them deal with the Death Star combined with a Sith Lord. Death Star scale lightsaber can deal with even Unicron. I wonder if we would have a connection to the Force and the Matrix?

lipe44
2007-12-13, 02:25 PM
They would assimilate the empire ships, i doubt the Empire would stand a chance after half of their ships started attacking them before they could even realise.


History? It is a movie about giant fighting alien robots. Who need history there?

Its a movie about giant shapeshifting robots.

All you need is action and explosions.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

Hum... Ok, you would like a movie that from nowhere some guys come start attacking something that you have no idea of what is then another people come destroy them and get destroyed in the process, with them saying nothing or even showing non-action scenes just jumping from one scene to another before you could even assimilate.

Well, it still has a little history but would you like it?

Talkkno
2007-12-13, 10:36 PM
Uh, sure...

So, um, not even the hardcore fanboy websites I can find list either one as having particularly awesome ECM/ECCM.

I find it a little difficult to believe that the TiE Fighter, supposedly one of the cheapest made fighters in Galactic history, so cheap it carries no shields or ejection seats, is going to have super powerful and advanced ECM/ECCM suite.
......Both from ANH novelisation.
"Also, their field generators will probably create a lot of distortion, especially in and around the trench. I figure that maneuverability in that sector will be less than point three." This produced more murmurs and a few groans from the assembly."


"My scope's negative. I don't see anything."

"Pick up your visual scanning." Blue Leader directed. "With all this energy flying, they'll be on top of you before your scope can pick them up. Remember, they can jam every instrument on your ship except your eyes."

Talkkno
2007-12-13, 10:41 PM
Or badly-glued together Rubix Cubes.

I loved the movie, and I hate the ridiculous escalation of the Star Wars universe (largely due to technically canon novels written by authors with no understanding of physics or practicality, and the need to make their threat teh biggest!), and I'll give this to the Transformers purely because I don't see how the Empire will take them out.

They can be at least some what harmed somewhat by convetional today's weaponary, while the heavy weapons of a outdated troop transport max output of 200 gigatons....

Talkkno
2007-12-13, 10:45 PM
Dealing with Vader is a guessing game, at best. I think solo it might be an even fight, but with more than one decepticon, Vader dies. Vader is weak compared to his abilities as Anakin and Anakin was a bit better than Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan only barely defeated General Grievous, who, compared to Megatron, sucked. Jedi are impressive against normal blasters, but agaisnt things like Blackout's wave of doom and the various other weapon systems of the Decepticons. Vader is good, he ain't that good though.

A couple of Jedi cadats who barely even gotten any training managed to force push a fleet of Star Destroyers several light years away(Though it several strained most of them and killed one of them), Mace Windu easily defeated a entire battle droid on his own, Jorrus C'Boath managed to boast the effency of a entire fleet by 30% while corrdainting with a another fleet that was several light years away, Paplatine can create force storms that can take out a Super Star Destroyer.

Talkkno
2007-12-13, 10:47 PM
Got to go to the Decepticons. Sure they don't have a chance in a regular fight, but they've demonstrated at least some level of planning ability. The Empire hasn't.

*cough* Thrawn *cough*

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-14, 07:40 AM
A couple of Jedi cadats who barely even gotten any training managed to force push a fleet of Star Destroyers several light years away(Though it several strained most of them and killed one of them), Mace Windu easily defeated a entire battle droid on his own, Jorrus C'Boath managed to boast the effency of a entire fleet by 30% while corrdainting with a another fleet that was several light years away, Paplatine can create force storms that can take out a Super Star Destroyer.

*yawn*

Um, yeah. I can see you are a big fan of the exta silly expanded universe, my only question is of course, if the Empire could do all that, why did they lose?

Sorry, there are two Star Wars universes, one in which every jedi can break wind and destroy the known universe and the one as depicted in the films. In the expanded universe, every Tie Fighter and X-Wing is a brand new, super experimental model that carries infinite nuclear weapons and can blow up a planet, piloted by a jedi that can collapse the known universe on itself.

Emperor Ing
2007-12-14, 08:07 AM
What scanners?

Dont get me wrong, The Empire is very powerful, and shouldve easily crushed the Rebels, its just that they have some REALLY FRICKIN STUPID officers.


Maybe the Decepticons would be, I dunno, disguised as TiE Fighters?
Yeah, disquise themselves as cheap, unshielded, totally expendable solar-powered pieces of armor with blasters. Good idea. :smalltongue:

What AT-ATs?
Ground combat dude!!


Wow! Mile long capital ships!!! They sure are super effective at catching the Millenium Falcon. And those advanced sensors were really good at tracking the Falcon after it landed on them.....
2 words, PLOT ARMOR. :smallannoyed:
Deceptacons, being antagonists along with the Empire, wont have such a benefit.

Ossian
2007-12-14, 08:08 AM
There's no saying hoi uber the SW universe can get. Keeping it strictly Vader Vs Decepticons (and note Empire vs Dec.) I 'd say that the scenario of the decepticons taking over the eath Star (and wreaking havoc with it) is definiely credible. They are "robosts in disguise after all" so ...uh..this i so sweet now that I picture it, imagine the ATAT in your hangar suddendly doing the dadadada thing and becoming a humanoid fighter with a speeder length blaster (and do the same for your Tie Fighters).

Still, I must say that Vader has some edge on the Dec. at least if THEY appeared in the SW universe. They are droids. Massive, huge, heavily armored and armed cunning battle bastards, but they're droids, and don't have deflector shields. Even if Vader didn't think of shooting ionization weapons, he'd still be able to give them a hard time simpli lifting them, and hurling them to the bottom of a reactor core.

I hate when a bunch of emos does the Force Magic on planet sized objects , that's just silly EU, but a decepticon is maybe 9 meters tall, weighing a few tons. Vader can do that, esp. if he is raging. Force Oull the weapon out of their hands or, if they have weapon implacements, just Grip their metallic components and lock their joints. They are machines, so you just have to break a gear or two, and whooops, legs are gone. They don't have a "soul" in the Force Sense, and thus little or no willpower to oppose the Force itself. I suppose that the thing was implicit in Vader's statement about the Death Star. The ability to destroy a planet is nothing next to the Force wasn't referring to the fact that the Force too can shatter planets, but to the superiority of spirituality and insight on matter, mechanics, technology and science. The Latter being extra powerful, but limited to the actual level of advancement reached, the former being bottomless as the pool of energy it draws upon. Life itself (go ask Kamina and the Razen tribe....)

A few of them could just blast him into oblivion, but he isn't that stupid. He would just go and face them on a open battlfield and charge them like a headless force-goose.

It's a tough one...

Talkkno
2007-12-14, 10:14 PM
*yawn*

Um, yeah. I can see you are a big fan of the exta silly expanded universe, my only question is of course, if the Empire could do all that, why did they lose?

Sorry, there are two Star Wars universes, one in which every jedi can break wind and destroy the known universe and the one as depicted in the films. In the expanded universe, every Tie Fighter and X-Wing is a brand new, super experimental model that carries infinite nuclear weapons and can blow up a planet, piloted by a jedi that can collapse the known universe on itself.

....
You can't dismiss evidence out of hand, just because you dislike it, unless you can provide evidence to the contray.
Besides, Paplatine was growing slowly insane, reaching its peak during Dark Empire, sending Thrawn to the unknown regions, the other grand admirals were pretty good too, but fracted after Endor where Thrawn took down most of them, he sent Jourr'us C Boath guarding a secret weapons cache, besides, the thing from Darksaber was mostly tounge in cheek, given KJA even i would dismiss.
The Millenium Falcon was speficilly desgined to get passed Imperial blockades, keeping in mind that the Star Destroyers are not designed to take down such small ships, given the paucity of point defense weaponary, which fighters mostly compsenate for.

Talkkno
2007-12-14, 10:45 PM
There's no saying hoi uber the SW universe can get. Keeping it strictly Vader Vs Decepticons (and note Empire vs Dec.) I 'd say that the scenario of the decepticons taking over the eath Star (and wreaking havoc with it) is definiely credible. They are "robosts in disguise after all" so ...uh..this i so sweet now that I picture it, imagine the ATAT in your hangar suddendly doing the dadadada thing and becoming a humanoid fighter with a speeder length blaster (and do the same for your Tie Fighters).


TESB novelization p.005

"Not wasting a moment, Luke removed a small object from his utility belt and adjusted its miniature controls. The device was sensitive enough to zero in on even the most minute life readings by detecting body temperature and internal life systems."

This proves the Rebellion provides powerful small life-sign sensor device on their belts as standard equipment for mere grunts. So they thing about the Empire having cruddy sensors is disproven.

Foeofthelance
2007-12-14, 11:25 PM
"Not wasting a moment, Luke removed a small object from his utility belt and adjusted its miniature controls. The device was sensitive enough to zero in on even the most minute life readings by detecting body temperature and internal life systems."

Why do people think the sensors would be all that useful in the first place? The one from the quote would be most likely useless; transformers don't operate on biological systems. I doubt the shipboard sensors would be much use either. Even if they can tell the transformers are there that doesn't mean they can seperate them from Imperial craft. I'm sure the Decepticons could fake an Imperial IFF transmission if they had to.

Tyrant
2007-12-14, 11:58 PM
Why do people think the sensors would be all that useful in the first place? The one from the quote would be most likely useless; transformers don't operate on biological systems. I doubt the shipboard sensors would be much use either. Even if they can tell the transformers are there that doesn't mean they can seperate them from Imperial craft. I'm sure the Decepticons could fake an Imperial IFF transmission if they had to.

The Transformers don't have biological systems, but they do give off heat and apparently a very specific level/type of radiation. If humans, on Earth in the present, can devise a way to track them I have no doubt the Empire could. If human weapons, on Earth in the present, can bring them down, then Imperial weapons will destroy them before they know what's happening. Since we are at least considering the movie Decepticons, I think people need to stop overestimating their intelligence. These are the same creatures who found out about the glasses, and the kid who owned them. And then chose to engage in a full on attack to get them instead of hacking Paypal/Ebay and simply buying them. To their credit, they clearly understood the Earth based militaries were a threat. I am pretty sure they will spill their lubricant at the prospect of fighting the Empire. They couldn't adapt against modern military weapons. What do you think they will do to adapt against the insanely powerful weapons of Star Wars?

Let's also not forget that Starscream will betray them. It's a matter of when, not if. That one moment when Megatron is on the verge of victory and has started to gloat (so most of the time really) is all it will take for Starscream to stab him in the back. Then they fall into infighting.

As for replicating the signal, let's just remember that they used a call sign of a known-to-be-destroyed US helicopter to infiltrate the base. They gambled that the commander wouldn't simply try to shoot them down. That trick won't work twice (if it works the first time) against the Empire. The Rebels had to buy (or somehow aquire at high cost) the code to gain access to Endor. Even then, the code was outdated by the time they got there. They only barely gained access. To do any real damage, the Decepticons will need to infiltrate a secure site like Endor. The wrong code, and they're atomized. At some point they will need to engage in open warfare. When they do, it's game over for them.

Of course I still believe the Darth Vader/Death Star Transformer is evidence that the Empire has had contact with the Decepticons before and used their technology. Either that or face the fact that Cobra Commander has been able to deal with them. If Cobra Commander can beat you, even Admiral Ozzel shouldn't be able to screw up fighting you.