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Asmodeus
2007-12-11, 09:36 PM
Does anyone know where I can find information about owning a shop or a house?

If its specific to Sharn, in the Eberron Campaign Setting, that would be great, but generic stuff is fine.

Xefas
2007-12-11, 09:46 PM
Well, you can get pricing for building a shop or a house in the Stronghold Builder's Guide (I think that's what it's called).

You could probably glean taxes/mortgages/whatever from that.

I think the DMGII had some rules about running a business.

TheLogman
2007-12-11, 09:55 PM
The passage in the DMG II you're speaking of had a list of Business events for the DM to regularly plague your business with. However, the easiest way to have a business is with the Profession (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/profession.htm) skill, which assumes you can just pick up your trade anywhere. You could just get a bunch of NPC's with Leadership, or hire them, and have them just take 10 or 20 on Profession checks, giving the money to you.

EDIT: Sorry, misunderstood the question. The DMG suggests taxes for players, other than a business tax, an income tax, Land tax and maybe "Protection Money", there shouldn't be all that much involved in the owning of anything.

Mewtarthio
2007-12-11, 09:57 PM
You could always send the PCs up against CR-appropriate challenges to expand and mantain their businesses, giving them treasure as appropriate to the challenge.

Asmodeus
2007-12-11, 09:59 PM
You could always send the PCs up against CR-appropriate challenges to expand and mantain their businesses, giving them treasure as appropriate to the challenge.

I'm hoping to find some price ranges, and maybe some sample maps?

Xefas
2007-12-11, 10:02 PM
You could always send the PCs up against CR-appropriate challenges to expand and mantain their businesses, giving them treasure as appropriate to the challenge.

Lock your doors, the zombie tax collectors are back!

Those damn goblin kids are chucking rocks at your shop again!

Loitering Hobo Swarm! Fort save versus distraction!

Oh no, the fleshrakers have escaped from the Pets-Mart next door!

Bag_of_Holding
2007-12-11, 10:10 PM
Refer to Sharn: City of Towers page 12; Setting up Shop. It ranges from 2d4x100gp (poor quality building) to 4d8x1,000gp (marble floor, leather chairs etc.).

Asmodeus
2007-12-11, 10:16 PM
Refer to Sharn: City of Towers page 12; Setting up Shop. It ranges from 2d4x100gp (poor quality building) to 4d8x1,000gp (marble floor, leather chairs etc.).

Thats perfect. Thank you. Now I just need to find a good layout.

RTGoodman
2007-12-11, 10:24 PM
It's a little late (and the other answer was Eberron-specific), but in case you need other prices, building prices are actually in the SRD, hidden in the Environment section:


Buying Buildings
Characters might want to buy their own buildings or even construct their own castle. Use the prices in Table: Buildings directly, or as a guide when for extrapolating costs for more exotic structures.

Table: Buildings
{table=head]Item | Cost
Simple House | 1,000 gp
Grand House | 5,000 gp
Mansion | 100,000 gp
Tower | 50,000 gp
Keep | 150,000 gp
Castle | 500,000 gp
Huge Castle | 1,000,000 gp
Moat with bridge | 50,000 gp[/table]

Bag_of_Holding
2007-12-11, 10:36 PM
Thats perfect. Thank you. Now I just need to find a good layout.

Have fun:smallwink:

Yahzi
2007-12-12, 12:54 AM
Huge Castle 1,000,000 gp
Let's see... 1 mill / 5 gp per XP = 200,000 xp.

And to get to level 20 requires... 190,000 xp.

Now which is worth more, in absolute terms: a huge castle, or a 20th lvl wizard (who can make a huge castle every few months)?

shaggz076
2007-12-12, 09:22 AM
To rtg0922,

"Ooh, ohh I wanna buy a moat. Screw all those buildings I want an island." lol
I love the fact that there is a specification for a moat. Id doesn't happen to tell you how big the moat is does it? Wouldn't it cost less if you put a moat around a house as opposed to a Castle or even the difference from a castle and a huge castle?
Just curious if anyone sees the inherent flaw of a set cost for a moat.

Inyssius Tor
2007-12-12, 09:59 AM
To rtg0922,

"Ooh, ohh I wanna buy a moat. Screw all those buildings I want an island." lol
I love the fact that there is a specification for a moat. Id doesn't happen to tell you how big the moat is does it? Wouldn't it cost less if you put a moat around a house as opposed to a Castle or even the difference from a castle and a huge castle?
Just curious if anyone sees the inherent flaw of a set cost for a moat.

Wow, that's great. I guess we can add that to the list of equipment into which no thought whatsoever was put, right next to the ten-foot ladder, the mithral chain shirt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3647731#post3647731), and the antigravity alchemist's flask.

LongVin
2007-12-12, 10:01 AM
Remember that a player's house or shop will always be burnt down or blown up atleast once in the course of a campaign. It is a given. Make sure to have money stored up on the side to rebuild it.

In the games I've played, me and the rest of the players took to having two residences at all time. One being the place we live, the other, the place we blow up.

RandomFellow
2007-12-12, 10:06 AM
Remember that a player's house or shop will always be burnt down or blown up atleast once in the course of a campaign. It is a given. Make sure to have money stored up on the side to rebuild it.

In the games I've played, me and the rest of the players took to having two residences at all time. One being the place we live, the other, the place we blow up.

He could just include 'insurance salesman' as a cost of owning a building or store. =)

In case of Kobold's Policy: 2cp
In case of Dragon Policy: 1000gp
In case of DMPC: Your on your own.

RTGoodman
2007-12-12, 01:14 PM
Well, I didn't copy and paste the whole description (it's quoted here), but even with it everything is still pretty vague.


Simple House: This one- to three-room house is made of wood and has a thatched roof.
Grand House: This four- to ten-room house is made of wood and has a thatched roof.
Mansion: This ten- to twenty-room residence has two or three stories and is made of wood and brick. It has a slate roof.
Tower: This round or square, three-level tower is made of stone.
Keep: This fortified stone building has fifteen to twenty-five rooms.
Castle: A castle is a keep surrounded by a 15-foot stone wall with four towers. The wall is 10 feet thick.
Huge Castle: A huge castle is a particularly large keep with numerous associated buildings (stables, forge, granaries, and so on) and an elaborate 20-foot-high wall that creates bailey and courtyard areas. The wall has six towers and is 10 feet thick.
Moat with Bridge: The moat is 15 feet deep and 30 feet wide. The bridge may be a wooden drawbridge or a permanent stone structure. City Lights

Apparently for the same price you can have a moat around a single building, or one around an entire nation! And the only difference between castle size is the number of associated buildings and the thickness of the walls.

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-12, 01:24 PM
What's the antigravity flask?

AKA_Bait
2007-12-12, 01:46 PM
Another amusing thing: For less than a third of the cost of my own personal tower I can just buy a Lyre of Building (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#lyreofBuilding) and pay a hireling expert lyre player to perform for a few hours and build me a castle.

If I don't have any bard friends that is.

Inyssius Tor
2007-12-12, 01:52 PM
Empty flask: 1 lb.
Flask full of oil, or acid, or holy water, or alchemist's fire: 1 lb.

:smallconfused:

Ne0
2007-12-12, 01:56 PM
Goodbye, Law of Conversation of mass! :smallbiggrin:

shaggz076
2007-12-12, 02:00 PM
My personal favorit if your a Wizzard would be to learn the Wall of Iron and shape metal spells. You could make a castle 10x as tough as a regular one. It would be damn cold though in the winter months. lol

reorith
2007-12-12, 02:01 PM
What's the antigravity flask?

i think it i has something to do with the difference in weight between an empty flask and the weight of a flask of alchemist's fire. i've contributed nothing!


My personal favorit if your a Wizzard would be to learn the Wall of Iron and shape metal spells. You could make a castle 10x as tough as a regular one. It would be damn cold though in the winter months. lol

if a wizard can cast wall of iron and shape it into a castle, what is to stop him from using his arcane might to cast endure elements?

Animefunkmaster
2007-12-12, 02:22 PM
Let's see... 1 mill / 5 gp per XP = 200,000 xp.

And to get to level 20 requires... 190,000 xp.

Now which is worth more, in absolute terms: a huge castle, or a 20th lvl wizard (who can make a huge castle every few months)?

You know crafting mundane/masterwork items does not require XP.

Edit: I would say walls of iron and the like are easier to break into. A little thing called dispel magic/antimagic field. Force on the other hand, is a new beast entirely.

shaggz076
2007-12-12, 02:35 PM
Ahh magic creates it but I think after it is created it is no longer considered magic and therefore rendered immune to Dispel magic etc...

I may be wrong.

As for endure elements yeaah you could. I think unless you somehow enhance the castle itself then your servants would be darn cold while you sit all nice and toasty with your endure elements on. You'd have a revolt on your hands or something.

Animefunkmaster
2007-12-12, 02:48 PM
Woops I think your right, my bad. Instantaneous duration.

tyckspoon
2007-12-12, 02:56 PM
Ahh magic creates it but I think after it is created it is no longer considered magic and therefore rendered immune to Dispel magic etc...

I may be wrong.

As for endure elements yeaah you could. I think unless you somehow enhance the castle itself then your servants would be darn cold while you sit all nice and toasty with your endure elements on. You'd have a revolt on your hands or something.

So not a heck of a lot of difference from a standard stone castle, what with its fireplaces and carpets and insulating wall hangings for the rich folk rooms, while servants walk through the uninsulated drafty hallways where nobody could be bothered to chink every little gap?

AKA_Bait
2007-12-12, 03:02 PM
You know crafting mundane/masterwork items does not require XP.

You misunderstand their point. They were using the standard x gold = y xp formula to compare the gold value of a huge castle to that of the equivalent xp value of a player character.


I would say walls of iron and the like are easier to break into. A little thing called dispel magic/antimagic field. Force on the other hand, is a new beast entirely.

I'm sorry, but you haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about. Spells like Wall of Iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIron.htm), Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) and similar effects have instantaneous durations which make them immune to Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm).

However, although a Wall of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) can be made permanent with a Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) spell the Permanency effect can be dispelled. Since the Wall of Force has a limited duration, it would probably have already expired, if not you need only wait for it to do so and the castle to fall down.

About the cold:

Seems like some item akin to an everburning torch that actually emits heat and can be placed in a fireplace wouldn't be that hard to invent. I'd expect most castles to have one in every room in fact.

RandomNPC
2007-12-12, 04:49 PM
the thing about building an iron castle is the invading army of kobolds with stone weapons and armor, riding rust monsters.

Animefunkmaster
2007-12-12, 05:24 PM
You misunderstand their point. They were using the standard x gold = y xp formula to compare the gold value of a huge castle to that of the equivalent xp value of a player character.

I did, thank you for pointing that out.


I'm sorry, but you haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about. Spells like Wall of Iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIron.htm), Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) and similar effects have instantaneous durations which make them immune to Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm).


I am going to assume I ninja'd you here.



However, although a Wall of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) can be made permanent with a Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) spell the Permanency effect can be dispelled. Since the Wall of Force has a limited duration, it would probably have already expired, if not you need only wait for it to do so and the castle to fall down.


I disagree here:


Spells cast on other creatures, objects, or locations (not on you) are vulnerable to dispel magic as normal.


it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic.

Perhaps I need clarification on Permanency, but it is clear how dispel magic works in this regards.

Also, the reason why I didn't strike out force in my earlier post isn't because I was specifically talking about walls of force, just force in general. Semi transparent, near indestructible materials for which people can make there buildings out of.

Asmodeus
2007-12-12, 05:30 PM
However, although a Wall of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) can be made permanent with a Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) spell the Permanency effect can be dispelled. Since the Wall of Force has a limited duration, it would probably have already expired, if not you need only wait for it to do so and the castle to fall down.

Wow, this topic went way off-course from my original intent...

Anyways, I just wanted to clear up a slight misstatement. You don't dispel the permanency effect. You dispel the original spell. See the last line in the description of the Permanency spell.


Spells cast on other creatures, objects, or locations (not on you) are vulnerable to dispel magic as normal.

Edit: Nevermind. I got power-ninja'd so hard, I think there is a permanent mark..

TheLogman
2007-12-12, 05:33 PM
Permanency is basically a "Slap On" kind of spell, you cast Wall of Force, then "Slap On" Permanency. However, if someone casts Dispel Magic on the spell Permanency, then the Wall of Force is no longer permanent, just a regular Wall of Force, which has a duration, which will run out.

tyckspoon
2007-12-12, 05:33 PM
Perhaps I need clarification on Permanency, but it is clear how dispel magic works in this regards.


hmm. Permanency itself has a duration (Permanent, naturally), so it's an ongoing spell and can be targeted with a dispel. The question, then, is what happens if you remove the Permanency: Is the permanence'd spell made permanent by the existence of the Permanency, or is it permanent in its own right after the Permanency has been cast, and there is no real reason for Permanency to be around any more? I think the intent is probably the first case- casting Permanency on something effectively overrides the spell's duration with that of Permanency. If you dispel the Permanency, you revert back to the original spell's duration, which has probably ended long ago. If you prefer the second version, in which dispelling Permanency leaves the Permanence'd spell intact and still permanent, then Permanency should have an Instantaneous duration like most other spells that cause non-dispellable changes.