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TheMeanDM
2007-12-12, 11:20 AM
Just so I get this right...

Rapier threat range = 18-20 normally

Keen Rapier = 16-20

...is that right?

Darkxarth
2007-12-12, 11:22 AM
Just so I get this right...

Rapier threat range = 18-20 normally

Keen Rapier = 16-20

...is that right?

Yes. I am sure that's right.

20 - 19 - 18
18 - 17 - 16

EDIT: Hm... now I'm not sure. I used to do it the other way, and get 15-20, but that doesn't seem right anymore...

EDIT2: Nevermind.

Overlard
2007-12-12, 11:22 AM
Just so I get this right...

Rapier threat range = 18-20 normally

Keen Rapier = 16-20

...is that right?
No.

Rapier threat range = 18-20 = 18, 19, & 20 (three numbers)

Keen rapier threat range = 15-20 = 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 (six numbers)

Catch
2007-12-12, 11:23 AM
No, it's 15-20. The rapier has a crit range of three numbers (18, 19, 20) and the Keen enchantment doubles that range to six numbers. (15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20).

EDIT: Bah, simu'ed.

RandomFellow
2007-12-12, 11:23 AM
No.

Rapier threat range = 18-20 = 18, 19, & 20 (three numbers)

Keen rapier threat range = 15-20 = 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 (six numbers)

Correct. =)

Narco
2007-12-12, 11:24 AM
Actually a keen rapier's threat range is 15-20. Pretty devastating.

Craig1f
2007-12-12, 11:44 AM
Keep in mind, that most builds using the rapier use some kind of precision damage (ie sneak attack) to boost damage. Precision Damage does NOT get multiplied on a critical.

So what is rapier, like a 1d6? Let's assume your STR multiplier is something high like 4, and your sneak attack is 5d6.

Your normal sneak attack will be 1d6+4+5d6
Your critical will be 2d6+8+5d6.

So if you're doing a sneak-attack/skirmish/sudden strike build, extending the threat range isn't really going to do a whole lot for you. If you're not using one of those builds, then the rapier is already doing so little damage, that you should probably not be in melee.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-12, 11:45 AM
It can be gooooood for someone using a Coup de Grace weapon.

Overlard
2007-12-12, 11:50 AM
Keep in mind, that most builds using the rapier use some kind of precision damage (ie sneak attack) to boost damage. Precision Damage does NOT get multiplied on a critical.

So what is rapier, like a 1d6? Let's assume your STR multiplier is something high like 4, and your sneak attack is 5d6.

Your normal sneak attack will be 1d6+4+5d6
Your critical will be 2d6+8+5d6.

So if you're doing a sneak-attack/skirmish/sudden strike build, extending the threat range isn't really going to do a whole lot for you. If you're not using one of those builds, then the rapier is already doing so little damage, that you should probably not be in melee.
Telling Blow. Feat from PHBII, p.83. If you get a critical hit, you can apply your sneak attack/skirmish/sudden strike damage, regardless of whether you'd normally qualify. It doesn't get multiplied, but more than useful for a rogue with a keen rapier.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-12, 11:51 AM
Is that post or pre errata?

Frosty
2007-12-12, 11:51 AM
Not at all. Coup-de-Graces auto-crit. What you're looking for is the Scythe, which has a huge crit multiplier in x4

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-12, 11:53 AM
I DIDN'T talk about the coup de grace move, but the enhancement. It forces a plain ol' Will 27 Save or Die, even against creatures immune to crits, but not against mindless.

Craig1f
2007-12-12, 11:56 AM
Telling Blow. Feat from PHBII, p.83. If you get a critical hit, you can apply your sneak attack/skirmish/sudden strike damage, regardless of whether you'd normally qualify. It doesn't get multiplied, but more than useful for a rogue with a keen rapier.

That's not bad. But a rogue shouldn't be wading into melee without a flanking position in the first place, just for a 30% chance of actually being effective. There are better feats to choose from.

Overlard
2007-12-12, 11:56 AM
Is that post or pre errata?
It doesn't stack if you're already getting SA etc. already (like if you're flanking), but if you don't have a flanking buddy, or you can't catch the enemy flat-footed, or if they've got the uncanny dodges, it lets you get sneak attack. Very, very handy, especially if you're dual wielding keen kukris.

Overlard
2007-12-12, 11:58 AM
That's not bad. But a rogue shouldn't be wading into melee without a flanking position in the first place, just for a 30% chance of actually being effective. There are better feats to choose from.
Read my post below yours. It gives a very good chance to apply SA when you can't get it any other way. And chances are, with a keen rapier/kukri/whatever, if you're hitting, you're critting.

Draz74
2007-12-12, 12:03 PM
Read my post below yours. It gives a very good chance to apply SA when you can't get it any other way. And chances are, with a keen rapier/kukri/whatever, if you're hitting, you're critting.

Yeah, but in most campaigns, "can't get it any other way" is a very rare circumstance.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-12, 12:05 PM
Try fightin' undead. It's either telling blow or Penetrating strike against them unless you can pull off a greater truedeath or some other inefficient magical solution.

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-12, 12:08 PM
As a way to get rid of the times you can't contribute, it would be incredibly useful with a high enough crit chance.

Overlard
2007-12-12, 12:09 PM
Try fightin' undead. It's either telling blow or Penetrating strike against them unless you can pull off a greater truedeath or some other inefficient magical solution.
Telling blow won't help you there.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-12, 12:11 PM
D'oh, forgot critical immunity. That leaves Penetrating Strike as the only solution that is guaranteed to work.

Curmudgeon
2007-12-12, 12:35 PM
And chances are, with a keen rapier/kukri/whatever, if you're hitting, you're critting. This doesn't make much sense. If you're hitting, you're only threatening a critical. If your threat range is 15-20 and you only hit on those numbers, that still leaves 70% of the time when you're not threatening -- or not confirming the critical. 30% hits threatening a critical results in only 9% confirmed critical hits.

Craig1f
2007-12-12, 01:53 PM
Read my post below yours. It gives a very good chance to apply SA when you can't get it any other way. And chances are, with a keen rapier/kukri/whatever, if you're hitting, you're critting.

That's the kind of feat, like most feats, that would be "nice to have", but not if you have to give up a feat that's part of your target build.

It would be nice if there were a way to acquire feats that you wouldn't normally pick as part of a build.

Snadgeros
2007-12-12, 02:28 PM
Take improved critical and power critical too. You'll have a 9-20 crit range and +4 to confirm it.:smallbiggrin:

Xefas
2007-12-12, 02:33 PM
Take improved critical and power critical too. You'll have a 9-20 crit range and +4 to confirm it.:smallbiggrin:

Improved Critical and Keen don't stack.

Darkxarth
2007-12-12, 02:33 PM
Take improved critical and power critical too. You'll have a 9-20 crit range and +4 to confirm it.:smallbiggrin:

In 3.5 Improved Critical doesn't stack with Keen or anything else that has a similar 'increase critical threat range' effect. Additionally, that would only give you a 12-20 and a +4 to confirm. Improved Critical wouldn't double it again, it would only double the original.

But like I said, that's a moot point anyway since 3.5 keeps those from stacking.

tyckspoon
2007-12-12, 02:34 PM
Take improved critical and power critical too. You'll have a 9-20 crit range and +4 to confirm it.:smallbiggrin:

Imp. Crit and Keen don't stack in 3.5; I believe it was changed specifically because of the chance to have a better than 50% crit range.

KoDT69
2007-12-12, 02:38 PM
It doesn't work that way. Keen and Improved Crit don't stack in 3.5 (did in 3.0 though) and the multiplier doesn't go x2 then x4, it would go x2 then x3, because you add the multipliers. So in 3.0 you could have a 12-20 threat range for a total of 9 numbers. Still only 6 in 3.5 though. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Crappy work connection is too slow, double ninja'd :smallmad:

Animefunkmaster
2007-12-12, 02:45 PM
Take improved critical and power critical too. You'll have a 9-20 crit range and +4 to confirm it.:smallbiggrin:

Doesn't stack.

What does stack are:
Psionic Weapon master (Minds Eye, crystal weapons, as part of the pre req)
Weapon Master (3.0, OA/Sword and Fist)
Disciple of Dispater (Book of Vile Darkness, Metal Weapons)
Barbarian Sub Level 7 (Cityscape Web enhancement)

Now if you had a crystal weapon with the Metalline enhancement...

Edit: For argument purposes lets assume a Human Barb7/Psychic Warrior2 Psionic Weapon master 9/Disciple dispater 2

With improved crit of coarse.

with a Metalline Crystal rapier, I think this is too feat intensive anyway and might not work out pre reqs.

Charging a flat footed foe:
Thats 18-20
X2 Keen
X2 Disciple Dispater
+2 Psionic Weapon Master
+1 Barbarian.
That is 9-20 in 3.5... albeit your character sucks and is only playable in highest of the high level games.

Snadgeros
2007-12-12, 03:02 PM
Alright! I get it already! It doesn't stack! My bad! God, I've never seen so much ninja'ing!

Craig1f
2007-12-12, 03:14 PM
Um, so like, improved critical and, um, keen don't like, stack or whatever.

Just thought you should know.

*ducks*

Snadgeros
2007-12-12, 05:07 PM
Um, so like, improved critical and, um, keen don't like, stack or whatever.

Just thought you should know.

*ducks*

GRAAAAAAAAAAAGH!:smallfurious:

*Aims low*

Aquillion
2007-12-12, 05:28 PM
GRAAAAAAAAAAAGH!:smallfurious:

*Aims low*If you're going to hit him, use your improved critical with a keen rapier. According to my calculations, that'll let you threaten on a 9-20.

Snadgeros
2007-12-12, 05:42 PM
If you're going to hit him, use your improved critical with a keen rapier. According to my calculations, that'll let you threaten on a 9-20.

Shut up.:smallmad:

Hawriel
2007-12-12, 06:01 PM
My rogue has a rapier of speed. with imp crit. thats fun.

Leon
2007-12-12, 08:43 PM
Cleft Weapons from the IK setting stack with Keen or Imp Crit

Cuddly
2007-12-12, 08:48 PM
Keep in mind, that most builds using the rapier use some kind of precision damage (ie sneak attack) to boost damage. Precision Damage does NOT get multiplied on a critical.

So what is rapier, like a 1d6? Let's assume your STR multiplier is something high like 4, and your sneak attack is 5d6.

Your normal sneak attack will be 1d6+4+5d6
Your critical will be 2d6+8+5d6.

So if you're doing a sneak-attack/skirmish/sudden strike build, extending the threat range isn't really going to do a whole lot for you. If you're not using one of those builds, then the rapier is already doing so little damage, that you should probably not be in melee.

Or two hand power leap attack for 8x PA damage.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-12-12, 09:43 PM
The main reason I can see for using a keen rapier is that it will hit 30% of the time, no matter what your opponents AC is. I could see using it as a backup weapon, just in case you are outmatched by something.

Vael Nir
2007-12-12, 10:11 PM
The main reason I can see for using a keen rapier is that it will hit 30% of the time, no matter what your opponents AC is. I could see using it as a backup weapon, just in case you are outmatched by something.

as far as I'm aware, only a natural 20 always hits.

I have improved critical with a thinblade in my game (elven rapier), and we didn't houserule criticals... so I'm kind of assuming this is the case, because I've missed on a threat before. ;)

Blasterfire
2007-12-12, 10:25 PM
What book is the coup de grace enchantment from?

Leon
2007-12-13, 03:15 AM
Expanded Psionic Handbook

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-12-13, 03:34 AM
as far as I'm aware, only a natural 20 always hits.

You are correct.

Craig1f
2007-12-13, 09:56 AM
Or two hand power leap attack for 8x PA damage.

Wait ... is a rapier a light weapon, or a one-handed weapon? An actual rapier cannot be wielded with two hands I believe. The idea of using a rapier as a two-handed weapon, and even power attacking with one, just seems kind of strange to me.

Frosty
2007-12-13, 11:31 AM
Rapier is a one-handed weapon that can be weapon finessed. Nothing in the game mechanics say you can't two-hand Power Attack with it. However, if you wanna PA, then you're better off with other weapons like the Greatsword.

Cuddly
2007-12-13, 11:34 AM
Rapier is a one-handed weapon that can be weapon finessed. Nothing in the game mechanics say you can't two-hand Power Attack with it. However, if you wanna PA, then you're better off with other weapons like the Greatsword.

I think the larger critical range would pay off in the long run than an extra d6.

Divine Storm
2007-12-13, 11:45 AM
If you're looking for a good weapon to take advantage of the 15-20 crit range of a keen enchantment I've always been partial to the great falchion. Get monkey grip, take a large sized one and you're doing 3d6 dmg a swing with 6d6 style dmg on a crit. Combine with a good PA build and you're melee gold.

Frosty
2007-12-13, 11:48 AM
Rapier isn't bad for it, but a Falchion is better. Same crit range, and better damage.

Cuddly
2007-12-13, 11:52 AM
Found this on the SRD:

Rapier

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isnít a light weapon for you. You canít wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1Ĺ times your Strength bonus to damage.


Falchion is much better, unless your DM lets you PA and use weapon finesse together. In which case you trade some damage for some to hit.

Craig1f
2007-12-13, 11:55 AM
Too bad my Barbarian is a Half-Orc. The Falchion looks great, but I'm going to stick with my Greataxe for RP reasons.

it's a modified threat range Greataxe though. 19-20/x2. I figure that'll pay off, since I'd rather get criticals more frequently. He already does so much damage, that a x3 is less likely to be useful than a x2. A x3 will just make things more dead.

If he loses his family axe though, the Falchion will be my next choice.

Huduvudu
2007-12-13, 07:19 PM
If you're looking for a good weapon to take advantage of the 15-20 crit range of a keen enchantment I've always been partial to the great falchion. Get monkey grip, take a large sized one and you're doing 3d6 dmg a swing with 6d6 style dmg on a crit. Combine with a good PA build and you're melee gold.

The SRD says that the falchion grants a 2d4 when medium sized and 2d6 when large sized, so is that from a typo or errata somewhere?

If if actually does that, that'd be pretty (pardon the pun) keen.

Fawsto
2007-12-13, 10:54 PM
Want a good Keen Rapier Based Build?

Go for Paladin and Fist of Raziel... Each smite you land with your Keen Rapier from 15 to 20 is now a confirmed crit. Now get yourself a small paper and calaculate the damage that a Pally 10, Fist of Raziel 5 would deal.

IMO, though. Pally fan here.

Disconecting.

Armads
2007-12-14, 05:57 AM
Isn't a keen falchion better for that? So you can power attack, leap attack smite, blah blah.

Person_Man
2007-12-14, 10:16 AM
Investing feats or class abilities in improving your crit is generally a poor strategy.

First, consider how many common enemies are immune to crits. Spending resources on a tactic that you know is going to be utterly useless in certain combats isn't a winning strategy. This is especially true for builds that already rely on precision damage.

Second, consider that you're usually giving up reach. Even without Combat Reflexes, having a reach weapon usually gives you at least one extra attack per combat.

Third, consider what you're getting. In the best case scenario you're increasing your threat range from 15% to 30%. And if you succeed in rolling a 15-17, you still need to confirm. And if you confirm, you then get double damage. So you essentially get 1 additional attack an extra 15% of the time each time you attack. That's far fewer extra attacks then you can get from a variety of other methods.

So, by all means buy a scabbard of keen edges or something similar. It's a cheap way to somewhat improve your attacks. But don't bother investing much more in it. It'll just be a waste.

Cuddly
2007-12-14, 02:11 PM
Investing feats or class abilities in improving your crit is generally a poor strategy.

First, consider how many common enemies are immune to crits. Spending resources on a tactic that you know is going to be utterly useless in certain combats isn't a winning strategy. This is especially true for builds that already rely on precision damage.

Second, consider that you're usually giving up reach. Even without Combat Reflexes, having a reach weapon usually gives you at least one extra attack per combat.

Third, consider what you're getting. In the best case scenario you're increasing your threat range from 15% to 30%. And if you succeed in rolling a 15-17, you still need to confirm. And if you confirm, you then get double damage. So you essentially get 1 additional attack an extra 15% of the time each time you attack. That's far fewer extra attacks then you can get from a variety of other methods.

So, by all means buy a scabbard of keen edges or something similar. It's a cheap way to somewhat improve your attacks. But don't bother investing much more in it. It'll just be a waste.

I take it you also don't encourage people to play rogues.

Craig1f
2007-12-14, 02:19 PM
I take it you also don't encourage people to play rogues.

I think his point is that, feats are too valuable to waste on improving your crit, since feats that do so do not stack with the Keen enhancement.

I'm starting to feel that way about Cleave. I think my barbarian is going to drop Cleave by the time he reaches level 11, and just pick up the Cleave enhancement to his weapon. I'd rather spend that feat on something like Leap Attack, or improve grappling.

NEO|Phyte
2007-12-14, 03:15 PM
So, at what number of arms/weapons does spending the feat for Improved Critical become more cost-effective than magic?
Would my Thri-kreen critmonkey (yay for Blood in the Water being able to function on Crit-immune foes, unless Custserv has changed their minds) be better off going for magic items to improve the crit range of her 4 kukris?

Craig1f
2007-12-14, 03:38 PM
So, at what number of arms/weapons does spending the feat for Improved Critical become more cost-effective than magic?
Would my Thri-kreen critmonkey (yay for Blood in the Water being able to function on Crit-immune foes, unless Custserv has changed their minds) be better off going for magic items to improve the crit range of her 4 kukris?

I think you'd be better off focusing on getting sneak attack, which does far more than a critical.

Cuddly
2007-12-14, 03:40 PM
I think you'd be better off focusing on getting sneak attack, which does far more than a critical.

A sneak attack does 10d6, tops, which = around 35 damage, on average.

A power leap attacking etc. etc. critical will do

20*2*3(or 4) damage = 120. A x2 critical will double that, which is 4 times better than your sneak attack dice.

Fixer
2007-12-14, 04:24 PM
A sneak attack does 10d6, tops, which = around 35 damage, on average.
I thought the same until I saw the Indigo Strike feat in Magic of Incarnum. Combine that with Improved Essentia Capacity and a few other Incarnum feats and you COULD be dealing 20d6 on every sneak attack by level 19.

NEO|Phyte
2007-12-14, 04:36 PM
I think you'd be better off focusing on getting sneak attack, which does far more than a critical.

Its not the critical as much as the ever-increasing bonus to attack and damage that I'm after. Plus I don't need anything beyond me and my weapons to be effective against undead, constructs, plants, oozes, and the such. I also don't need a flanking buddy, which is handy, as the rest of the group either hasn't posted in a while, or is a caster.

Plus, there's no room in my planned build for any rogue/ninja/whatever levels (unless you count that level of Feat Rogue I took to get Far Shot).

Craig1f
2007-12-14, 04:46 PM
Its not the critical as much as the ever-increasing bonus to attack and damage that I'm after. Plus I don't need anything beyond me and my weapons to be effective against undead, constructs, plants, oozes, and the such. I also don't need a flanking buddy, which is handy, as the rest of the group either hasn't posted in a while, or is a caster.

Plus, there's no room in my planned build for any rogue/ninja/whatever levels (unless you count that level of Feat Rogue I took to get Far Shot).

Personally, I think the scout/ranger + swift hunting combo work way better. You just take favored enemies undead and constructs, and you're in business. Take dervish, and now you're doing full-round attacks with your skirmish because you're dancing (since you move while dancing). Add two-weapon fighting (which you get from being a ranger anyway) on that, and kick some arse.

Craig1f
2007-12-14, 04:51 PM
And I'm all in favor of the power attack route, instead of sneak attack. I'm not a big rogue fan.

My barbarian at level 6 can do 1d12+12 in rage (I have a homebrewed axe that's +2 in rage, but only MW out of rage). That's the same average damage as 6d6-2.5. Plus Pounce, and cleave, he's doing just fine. Just wait until he gets leap attack and shocktrooper.

Divine Storm
2007-12-14, 05:44 PM
The SRD says that the falchion grants a 2d4 when medium sized and 2d6 when large sized, so is that from a typo or errata somewhere?

If if actually does that, that'd be pretty (pardon the pun) keen.

Yeah, but a great falchion, from the Sandstorm book does 3d6 when large sized. If requires an exotic weapons proficiency, but for a low level fighter build it's pretty decent.

Huduvudu
2007-12-14, 05:48 PM
Yeah, but a great falchion, from the Sandstorm book does 3d6 when large sized. If requires an exotic weapons proficiency, but for a low level fighter build it's pretty decent.

Aha! Okay. Awesome. Thanks for that.

Lolzords
2007-12-14, 06:09 PM
It's 15-20, it sucks that improved critical and keen don't stack, you could wield a rapier (scimitar, kukri, whatever) and have a crit range of 9-20/x2 *drool*

Infact, imagine a keen rapier, with improved critical and keen strike. 24 numbers. -3-20/x2, always a critical. *drools a river*

Too bad it doesn't stack.

TK-Squared
2007-12-14, 07:56 PM
If you want to Power Attack, try the Jovar from Planar Handbook for the same Crit range, 2d6 damage and a 2-handed weapon. Only problem is it's Exotic.

Huduvudu
2007-12-15, 12:56 AM
It's 15-20, it sucks that improved critical and keen don't stack, you could wield a rapier (scimitar, kukri, whatever) and have a crit range of 9-20/x2 *drool*

Infact, imagine a keen rapier, with improved critical and keen strike. 24 numbers. -3-20/x2, always a critical. *drools a river*

Too bad it doesn't stack.

I think their logic behind not making it stack was due to things such as vorpal, which, well, having a chance of decapitating something when you roll above an 8 is kind of broken.

Siosilvar
2009-07-03, 08:50 PM
It's 15-20, it sucks that improved critical and keen don't stack, you could wield a rapier (scimitar, kukri, whatever) and have a crit range of 9-20/x2 *drool*

Infact, imagine a keen rapier, with improved critical and keen strike. 24 numbers. -3-20/x2, always a critical. *drools a river*

Too bad it doesn't stack.
Your multiplication is wrong. Given D&D's rules for multiplying, it'd be 12-20 and 9-20.

KillianHawkeye
2009-07-03, 09:51 PM
And I suppose that remark was important enough to reraise this thread???

P.S. It wasn't.

PanNarrans
2009-07-04, 01:55 PM
I have an NPC vampire coming up who'll be dual wielding burst kukris, with the improved critical feat. While not optimised, it should lead to some criticals against the party; I think it'll be much more entertaining than another power attacking monster.

Roland St. Jude
2009-07-04, 03:22 PM
Your multiplication is wrong. Given D&D's rules for multiplying, it'd be 12-20 and 9-20.

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