PDA

View Full Version : help achieving immortality



Feralgeist
2007-12-13, 07:59 AM
Okay, so i have a 4th level warblade in a horror campaign, who is steadily becoming corrupted by dark speech and taint and whatnot, so before i die or become unfixable, i was thinking of getting to a lich by level 11. is this possible by gish-ing it? (assuming i dont care about getting 9th level spells) Like taking eldritch knight or phantom knight..... I would love it if i could get some hints on how to achieve this.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-12-13, 08:09 AM
Take 7 levels in a any casting class that also grants a caster level for each level and take the feats Practiced Spellcaster and Craft Wondrous Item while you start saving the 120000 gp required and you should be good evil to go.

I think inspiration could be gathered from Libris Mortis if you don't want to become a Lich.

Feralgeist
2007-12-13, 08:14 AM
no, lich is what i want. the character is starting to go slightly insane and keeps finding magical dark language everywhere, i think he's going to be driven to becoming evil and lichy, or at least neutral.


also, how much would an epic scroll cost? like aumvor's fragmented phylactery? Not nearly an immediate issue, but still something to think about.


by the way, thanks so much for such a speedy response

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-12-13, 08:23 AM
no, lich is what i want. the character is starting to go slightly insane and keeps finding magical dark language everywhere, i think he's going to be driven to becoming evil and lichy, or at least neutral.

Forgotten Realms have some non-evil Liches, unlike the MM version where the ritual turns you evil if you are not already when you start.


also, how much would an epic scroll cost? like aumvor's fragmented phylactery? Not nearly an immediate issue, but still something to think about.


I cannot recall the spell you are mentioning, but epic spells cannot be scribed to scrolls. Epic Spells can only be cast by artifacts.


by the way, thanks so much for such a speedy response


You are welcome. If you give more details about what is allowed and how gishy you want it I am sure there will be plenty of build advice to gain also.

Iku Rex
2007-12-13, 08:27 AM
You want the Abjurant Champion PrC from Complete Mage. Normally I'd suggest wizard levels to meet the spellcasting requirement, but then you won't have the caster level to become a lich at level 11 (lv 6 Combat Casting, lv 9 Craft W. Item).

So, if you're dead set* on becoming a lich at level 11 the only way to use Abjurant Champion is two levels of duskblade (PHBII). Some of the benefits won't be as useful, but in return you'll be ready as soon as that level 5 caster level = BAB ability kicks in.



*I kill me

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-13, 08:38 AM
I would say since you are a Warblade already, you should go for Jade Phoenix Mage. Maybe work in some Abjurant Champion...

Edit:

Ok, so levels 5 and 6, take Wizard or Sorcerer and Combat Casting at 6. 7th thru 12th take Abjurant Champion. At 9th level you take Practiced Spellcaster, and at 12th you take Craft Wondrous Item. Then you have everything you need for Lichdom.

From there, I would personally go Jade Phoenix, but with your (new) LA, it won't be finished until 26th level.

So instead maybe go with Eldritch Knight for 4 levels and that gets you to 20....

Iku Rex
2007-12-13, 08:43 AM
I would say since you are a Warblade already, you should go for Jade Phoenix Mage. Prerequisite: Any nonevil

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-13, 08:51 AM
Prerequisite: Any nonevil

By the RAW, there is nothing that says that you have to be an evil Lich.

Feralgeist
2007-12-13, 08:56 AM
thanks for the help guys, i think i might go wizard for 5 levels, then Knight phantom for 2. it's only got 1 prerequisite feat (still spell) which is useful anyway. lich by level 12 is okay

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-12-13, 08:57 AM
By the RAW, there is nothing that says that you have to be an evil Lich.

No? I think I would interpret that differently. (At least as long as we are talking about the MM version and not the FR.


The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character. A lich retains all class abilities it had in life.


Alignment: Any evil.

But even if you house rule otherwise, you lose a crucial caster level if you take JPM and will not be able to make Lich at ECL 11.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-13, 09:16 AM
No? I think I would interpret that differently. (At least as long as we are talking about the MM version and not the FR.

To which I would counter that, per the MM, even creatures with an "Always" alignment can be of a differing alignment. The Lich alignment description doesn't even say always, it just says "Any Evil".... Even as an act of "unspeakable evil", nowhere does it say you are forever evil....


But even if you house rule otherwise, you lose a crucial caster level if you take JPM and will not be able to make Lich at ECL 11.

It depends how critical you view it...

The build I suggested doesn't get him into Lich until ECL 12. Just because you can go fast and get to Lich sooner, doesn't always mean you should. As soon as you go Lich your ECL kicks up by 4. If you don't have the power to back that up, you are going to die quickly.

Dode
2007-12-13, 09:19 AM
Be a Vampire instead.

Feralgeist
2007-12-13, 09:26 AM
vampires have LA of +8! Too much for me to bear. even the 4 is a stretch, but reforming in 1d10 days is one sweet deal.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-12-13, 09:31 AM
To which I would counter that, per the MM, even creatures with an "Always" alignment can be of a differing alignment. The Lich alignment description doesn't even say always, it just says "Any Evil".... Even as an act of "unspeakable evil", nowhere does it say you are forever evil....

Could you provide a reference to that claim?
(I can only think of Lycanthropes that offer that exception)

Even if you want to change your alignment after becoming a Lich you are presumably going to turn evil sometime during this process that are not just evil, but so evil that we cannot even talk about it.
And as soon as you turn evil you no longer meet the prerequisites for JPM and lose the benefits of the PrC and then you no longer meet the prerequisites for crafting your phylactery.



It depends how critical you view it...

The build I suggested doesn't get him into Lich until ECL 12. Just because you can go fast and get to Lich sooner, doesn't always mean you should. As soon as you go Lich your ECL kicks up by 4. If you don't have the power to back that up, you are going to die quickly.


Sure, but I was trying fulfill the wishes outlined in the original post. Any suggestion that only met them partially at least deserves a mentioning of this shortcoming, even if it turns out for the better.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-13, 09:34 AM
Be a Vampire instead.

That's even worse.

While there may be some debate over which is better, Vampire or Lich, one thing I can say for certain is Vampire sucks as PC. 8 LA? No way. You would get slaughtered by pretty much everything. The 4 LA for Lich sucks bad enough, but Lich has fewer disadvantages than Vampire.

I think Gravetouched Ghoul is really better if you want to be Undead. That's only +2. If you are just looking for freaky templates, there is a spell from Lost Empires of Faerun that could fit in nicely with what you have described for your character... I forget the name but it turns you (or your target) into a Half-Fiend.

Mr. Friendly
2007-12-13, 09:39 AM
Could you provide a reference to that claim?
(I can only think of Lycanthropes that offer that exception)

Even if you want to change your alignment after becoming a Lich you are presumably going to turn evil sometime during this process that are not just evil, but so evil that we cannot even talk about it.
And as soon as you turn evil you no longer meet the prerequisites for JPM and lose the benefits of the PrC and then you no longer meet the prerequisites for crafting your phylactery.

I don't have my MM on me, but if you look in the very beginning of the book (I think, or it's in the back, but I would bet on front) under the section about reading the stat block, it talks about the various types of alignments (usually X, often X, always X, etc.) and says that none of the alignments are absolutes and that there are 1 in a million exceptions to the always alignment, then I believe it goes on to list something about outsiders with alignment subtypes and how that interacts with their actual alignment, though I could be conflating that text portion from another book.

As for the second part, that's why my build had JPM post-Lichdom, long enough to turn evil, then repent. :smallwink:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-12-13, 09:54 AM
I don't have my MM on me, but if you look in the very beginning of the book (I think, or it's in the back, but I would bet on front) under the section about reading the stat block, it talks about the various types of alignments (usually X, often X, always X, etc.) and says that none of the alignments are absolutes and that there are 1 in a million exceptions to the always alignment, then I believe it goes on to list something about outsiders with alignment subtypes and how that interacts with their actual alignment, though I could be conflating that text portion from another book.

I think you are... but in any case, if you willingly go through such an evil process your Good-ness should not survive even in 1 out of a million cases. Atonement after would be necessary which makes for a somewhat complicated character development I think, but it could probably be worked out...


As for the second part, that's why my build had JPM post-Lichdom, long enough to turn evil, then repent. :smallwink:


Fair enough, I did not see your edit.
I just registered the original post with the suggestion of JPM on the road to lichdom.

wormwood
2007-12-13, 10:06 AM
I have a couple of recommendations. If you're just looking for immortality, not necessarily lichdom, then there are a few other options you can look into. A quick and easy way to be immortal is to buy yourself a scroll of PAO and read it to permanently zap yourself into an Elan (well, assuming you're a mammal or are at least as smart as an Elan). Bam! Immortality.

If you like the undead thing, you can check out the Necropolitan template. It'll cost you a level and a bit more xp but it sets you up as undead with no LA. I don't know if there are alignment restrictions.

Iku Rex
2007-12-13, 10:31 AM
To which I would counter that, per the MM, even creatures with an "Always" alignment can be of a differing alignment. The Lich alignment description doesn't even say always, it just says "Any Evil".... Even as an act of "unspeakable evil", nowhere does it say you are forever evil....While it would be silly to base a character build on it without the DM's permission, an "Always Evil" creatures might conceivably end up non-evil per RAW.

But as you pointed out, liches aren't even "Always Evil". They are simply Any Evil. It's part of the template, just like the natural armor bonus.

Monsters of Faerun (under the FR specific "Good Lich" template) puts it like this: The liches described in the Monster Manual are universally evil and hateful.