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View Full Version : Divine Metamagic and play balance



Methabroax
2007-12-13, 10:30 AM
Before I begin let me appologize if this topic is beating a dead horse. I'm new to the GIP forums, only recently finding out how hysterical OOTS is. "Evil food tastes better" classic.....

I recently started playing in a 3.5 DnD game. I've played DnD since it came in the red box with the plastic dice with no numbers on them and a free crayon. I love DnD with a passion for its simplicity and balance. 3.5 rules seemed to maintain that balance nicely in the core books. The problem is that the expansion material is classic WotC fare, with no regard to play balance in the new rules they add (I'm a little bitter about how Magic the Gathering jumped the shark, but that's another story) Anyhow, what really set me going is the Divine Metamagic feat that the DM told my wife to take. Clearly out of bounds with regards to the level of power that a divine caster is supposed to have.

I dont have a problem with the way metamagic works in 3.5, I think it adds a great twist to the spell list and focus for casting types. The problem is with feats that A) reduce the cost of adding on those feats to spells or B) being able to cast what is effectively a higher level spell

For example, in our game we are all 7th level and my wife has Divine metamagic that she uses to extend her Divine Power. Normally this would make it a 5th level spell for her. I know that the rules explicitely allow for this, but it's not internally consistent with how the games magic system has worked historically. To be able to cast 5th level spells she would needs be a 9th level caster. An extended Divine Power then should require the same access to her gods power pool as a 5th level spell.

My idea for how to fix Divine Metamagic is to do just that. I think, to be internally consistent without nerfing the power, that a priest should have access to the spell level required to cast the modified spell to be able to use divine metamagic to reproduce the effects, without having to use up a spell slot for same. If she can cast 4th level spells, she can extend her Spiritual Weapon all she likes, but she doesnt have enough of her gods favor to pull off Divine Power yet ( just like she can not cast any other 5th level spell)

Any thoughts or comments?

Frosty
2007-12-13, 10:39 AM
Then it'd not be worth spending the feats on, to be honest. Just have enemy casters use Dispel Magic liberally, and DMM isnt that bad.

Methabroax
2007-12-13, 10:48 AM
It would still give you expanded ability to use metamagic without buring high level spell slots, it would bring the power of the divine spells back in line with what the spell levels indicate aught to be the relative power of the divine caster.

Agrees that liberal dispelling aught to clear up the problem.

Keld Denar
2007-12-13, 10:52 AM
Divine Metamagic is actually fairly well balanced. It is self limiting in several regards. The first, and most commonly overlooked is:

Per the erata, when you select DMM, you have to select a metamagic feat that you know. This is limiting in two ways. First, you have to know the metamagic, so you are spending a feat on it, and on DMM, that's 2 of a clerics precious 7-8 feats. The 2nd factor is that DMM only applies to ONE metamagic feat, every time you take it. So you can't just grab Quicken, Extend, Empower, and Maximize, then grab DMM and apply each at will. You have to take DMM: Quicken or DMM: Empower as a seperate feat. This is very clearly laid out in the Erata to the feat, and in the FAQ(I'm pretty sure).

Secondly, DMM consumes a LARGE number of turn attempts. The most common uses of DMM are Persist and Quicken. Persist uses 7 turn attempts per spell, and Quicken uses 5 (spell level adjustment +1). A Cleric gets 3+cha mod turn attempts per day, unless he/she takes extra turning, which adds 4 more. That means that unless a cleric invests heavily in the Extra Turning feat, he or she is only capable of using the ability once, maybe twice a day with a decently high cha (16+). Now, this is pretty powerful, but compare it to the "Sudden" metamagic line of feats in Complete Arcane. They allow 1x/d application of metamagic, chosen at casting, to any spell. This can be the highest level spell you know. This is the same exact feature granted by DMM, except now you are burning 2-3 of your precious feats instead of 1. Also, the Sudden line of metamagic feats are generally considered weak by the community. The only metamagic feat which is commonly used by DMM that isn't available in Sudden form is Persist. Persist is generally considered to be rather overpowered to begin with, and can easily be banned per DM either alone, or just in conjunction with DMM.

As for taking Extra Turning multiple times, it would be more efficient to take the Sudden metamagic feats multiple times instead, to produce the same result. Extra Turning grants 4 extra turns, which is 1 less than needed for DMM:Quicken. Therefore, you are spending a feat for 4/5 of a quickened spell, instead of 100% of a quickened spell that Sudden Quicken would grant.

The only way DMM truely becomes broken, is with the application of Night Sticks, a magic item from Libris Mortis: The Book of Bad Latin. A Night Stick is basically an Extra Turning feat on a stick, which serves as a replaceable battery to power DMM. With a decent supply of Night Sticks, a cleric can cast EVERY spell as DMM. The fix for this is simple. Ban/limit Night Sticks, or just rule that they can't be used to fuel DMM. That cuts the usage of DMM down to once or twice a day, which brings it back in line of power with the Sudden metamagic feats.

Compare DMM with Metamagic Rods, which grant the ability to apply metamagic to a spell 3x/day, up to a certain level denoted by the rod, indicated by the relative price. They grant the same effect more times per day, at the investment of money, instead of precious feats.

DMM is versitile and moderately strong, but it is very self-limiting. It is my personal oppinion that it is balanced, so long as the factors noted above are taken into account.

Baxbart
2007-12-13, 10:55 AM
DMM, generally speaking, isn't all that bad - as long as its only for, say, Extend - because that's only a spell level jump of 1.

However, I'd draw the line when a 2nd level cleric (human, with a UA flaw) can use persistant spell by just burning extra turning (Planning/Whatever domains). Now that, is cheesy.

Hell... that 7th level cleric (with the right domains) could have an indefinite consumptive field going if she played her cards right and wanted to be evil...

Methabroax
2007-12-13, 10:59 AM
Thanks for the advice. I still think being able to boost spell effects above the level a character can cast normally is out of bounds of what aught to be legal.
Who thought they'd make a magic item that forces your patron diety to allow you extra turning in the first place was a good idea?

She too Divine Metamagic: Extend and has been using the heck out of it. Oh well, if the DM is happy with it, who am I to object.

Happy Gaming

Methabroax

Keld Denar
2007-12-13, 11:11 AM
Thanks for the advice. I still think being able to boost spell effects above the level a character can cast normally is out of bounds of what aught to be legal.
Who thought they'd make a magic item that forces your patron diety to allow you extra turning in the first place was a good idea?

She too Divine Metamagic: Extend and has been using the heck out of it. Oh well, if the DM is happy with it, who am I to object.

Happy Gaming

Methabroax

Extend Spell is great for clerics, but probably shouldn't be used for Divine Power. Since it only doubles the duration, having a DP that lasts for 14 rounds isn't much more useful than a DP that lasts for 7 rounds, since most combats don't last that long, and it won't last till the next combat.

The real glory of Extend Spell is in the 10min/lv and hour/lv spells. Things like Magic Vestaments, GMW, Hero's Feast, Magic Circle vs Evil, Mass Conviction, etc are best to be extended. Having DMM just negates the need to procure a Rod of Extend, which is one of the first items any cleric I play attempts to aquire.

Also, do another poster above....WTF is a level 2 cleric going to do with a Persisted 1st level spell? Get a +2 AC? Get a +1 hit/dmg? That cleric is spending most of his class features at that point to be on an effectiveness level or a fighter. Hardly broken. I think the most broken spell to Persist at level 2 would be Protection From Evil, hardly a game breaker, unless your DM is throwing vampires or illithid at you already.

Baxbart
2007-12-13, 11:12 AM
Solution: Get the DM to hurl legions of undead at you... so she has no 'Turning' to spare! :smallbiggrin:

Tokiko Mima
2007-12-13, 12:23 PM
I think the issue with DMM stems mostly from mixing it with Persistant spell. There's not a big issue quickening spells, even at a low level, and the other metamagic can easily be done with Rods. But DMM is the only really effective way to use Persistant spells until you are extremely high level, and the only way to aply it to spells greater than level 2 before you go Epic.

Remember that Persistant spell is like a superior combination of both Quicken and Extend metamagic: You already have the spell cast, so you don't even need a swift action to activate it, and the duration is extended long enough to be more or less permanent. DMM also allows a caster to easily apply another effect to a spell for an even greater benefit.

To solve the problem, I really recommend placing a tight control/ban on Nightsticks and banning or limiting DMM (Persistant) itself. Using DMM for any other metamagic Feat is not such a big deal.


Also, do another poster above....WTF is a level 2 cleric going to do with a Persisted 1st level spell? Get a +2 AC? Get a +1 hit/dmg? That cleric is spending most of his class features at that point to be on an effectiveness level or a fighter. Hardly broken. I think the most broken spell to Persist at level 2 would be Protection From Evil, hardly a game breaker, unless your DM is throwing vampires or illithid at you already.

There are spells that you can persist that would be a problem. The one that comes to mind immediately is if the cleric somehow added True Strike to his spell list via a PrC. Death Knell would be good, depending on whether or not a touch spell is considered to have a fixed range. If you're a Cleric with the Fire Domain, you can Persist Produce Flame and have a magic touch attack all day long.

If you get into the area of 1 round duration spells from splatbooks, there's a LOT you can use in the level 1 or 2 range that's really good for Persisting.

Keld Denar
2007-12-13, 01:14 PM
There are spells that you can persist that would be a problem. The one that comes to mind immediately is if the cleric somehow added True Strike to his spell list via a PrC. Death Knell would be good, depending on whether or not a touch spell is considered to have a fixed range. If you're a Cleric with the Fire Domain, you can Persist Produce Flame and have a magic touch attack all day long.

If you get into the area of 1 round duration spells from splatbooks, there's a LOT you can use in the level 1 or 2 range that's really good for Persisting.

Most of the spells you listed would not be good targets for Persisting. True Strike is a common one people mention. Unfortunately, according to the text of True Strike, once the attack is made, the effect disappears. So, while you could Persist a True Strike in the morning, and its effect would last all day, the second you made an attack roll, its effect would be consumed and the spell would fade. Same thing with Produce Flame. Once you throw all your balls of fire, they don't keep replentishing. The Produce Flame effect would be up all day, but wouldn't do anything since you had no more fire balls to throw. Death Knell Persisted would give you the benefit of the +1 CL and the bonus strength all day, but that's all. You couldn't keep making touch attacks on dying creatures to build up the bonus, because the effect would be discharged. Think of it like Call Lightning. That spell can last anywhere between 10 min/lv to 10 rounds/lv, depending on how fast you called down your bolts. A persisted Call Lightning would allow you to drop bolts at any time during the day, but once you ran out of bolts, you have no more effect.

tyckspoon
2007-12-13, 01:33 PM
Death Knell Persisted would give you the benefit of the +1 CL and the bonus strength all day, but that's all.

That's still pretty useful. Not borked on the level of persisted Divine Power or Consumptive Fields, but useful nonetheless. Resistance could also be decent, although it becomes obsolete as soon as you can get an actual +save magic item.. if I had to choose just one spell to persist, I'd probably take Death Knell for the caster level and untyped Strength bonus.

Kaelik
2007-12-13, 01:36 PM
If you get into the area of 1 round duration spells from splatbooks, there's a LOT you can use in the level 1 or 2 range that's really good for Persisting.

Persistent swift fly, 2nd level. Don't think it's Cleric spell, but the probably have similar swift X spells of one level lower to take advantage of.

And to the OP: Look in the DMG under rods. Metamagicing above the level you can cast is an assumed part of Core. This isn't Core versus Splatbooks. This is something that every single book assumed would happen.

Curmudgeon
2007-12-13, 09:24 PM
I'd like to thank lussmanj for the most thoughtful posting I've seen on the subject. If you keep Nightsticks under control (such as usable only by 1 person, and no stacking whatsoever) then there's no problem with Divine Metamagic; its benefit is balanced by its cost. The real problems is with the ambiguity in the Nightstick item description; at 7,500 gp it's priced in line with other magic items that are equivalent to feats.

Draz74
2007-12-14, 12:26 AM
So yeah, consensus is that DMM is broken only when you combine it with Nightsticks. IMHO, we should add that it is also much more likely to seem broken when it is combined with all kinds of cheesy ways to boost your caster level. Without caster level boosts, Persistent DMM spells are easy enough to counter with a simple Dispel Magic, that they can hardly be considered broken even with Nightsticks.


But DMM is the only really effective way to use Persistant spells until you are extremely high level, and the only way to aply it to spells greater than level 2 before you go Epic.

Well, technically, there are some other cheesy tactics that get you free metamagic too. Such as Incantrix, or the Vestige Metamagic ability of the Anima Mage.

Kizara
2007-12-14, 06:31 AM
OP:

Honestly, as other's have said, its not completely absurd if used in small doses, like with extend.

The problem is a few things:

1) Clerics so don't need this, they are amazing already.

2) As you said, it breaks what should be a fundamental rule of internal-balancing (spell level with metamagic).

3) When you DO use it right, it's extremely overpowering (planning domain, nightsticks, yadda yadda)

Just ban it, and take Power Attack instead. Power attack is a seriously good feat, enjoy it. :)

Tyndmyr
2009-11-11, 09:26 AM
DMM, generally speaking, isn't all that bad - as long as its only for, say, Extend - because that's only a spell level jump of 1.

However, I'd draw the line when a 2nd level cleric (human, with a UA flaw) can use persistant spell by just burning extra turning (Planning/Whatever domains). Now that, is cheesy.

Hell... that 7th level cleric (with the right domains) could have an indefinite consumptive field going if she played her cards right and wanted to be evil...

Uh...they are burning three feats for that combo. The fact that you need both a flaw and a race that gives an extra feat at level 1 to pull that off is already pretty limiting.

I mean, it's good, but it's not crazy unless nightsticks are available en masse.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-11, 09:30 AM
That's still pretty useful. Not borked on the level of persisted Divine Power or Consumptive Fields, but useful nonetheless. Resistance could also be decent, although it becomes obsolete as soon as you can get an actual +save magic item.. if I had to choose just one spell to persist, I'd probably take Death Knell for the caster level and untyped Strength bonus.

Persisted Resistance is also obseleted by the fact that MiC has higher level versions of it with an hour/level duration. By the time you can cast persisted resistance normally, doing so would be a terrible decision compared to casting one of the better resistances normally.

ex cathedra
2009-11-11, 09:46 AM
I recently started playing in a 3.5 DnD game. I've played DnD since it came in the red box with the plastic dice with no numbers on them and a free crayon. I love DnD with a passion for its simplicity and balance. 3.5 rules seemed to maintain that balance nicely in the core books. The problem is that the expansion material is classic WotC fare, with no regard to play balance in the new rules they add (I'm a little bitter about how Magic the Gathering jumped the shark, but that's another story) Anyhow, what really set me going is the Divine Metamagic feat that the DM told my wife to take. Clearly out of bounds with regards to the level of power that a divine caster is supposed to have.


While many people (myself included) will agree that mitigating the cost of metamagic is one of the more unbalanced tactics in 3.5, I must point out that core is perhaps the least balanced portion of 3.5.

Let me reiterate:

Core. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm) is. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) not. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm) balanced. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm)
(also (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBinding.htm), for (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti) your (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation) consideration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm), I'll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) suggest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm) these. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm))

Optimystik
2009-11-11, 09:46 AM
DMM is not the problem; nightsticks are (and other methods of gaining turn attempts without actually using your own.) The feat itself is pretty balanced, especially if the DM provides other things, like scary undead, that the cleric would feel safer turning.

ex cathedra
2009-11-11, 09:49 AM
DMM is not the problem; nightsticks are (and other methods of gaining turn attempts without actually using your own.) The feat itself is pretty balanced, especially if the DM provides other things, like scary undead, that the cleric would feel safer turning.

Agreed. On this note I'd like to point out that Persistent Spell isn't as broken as many people seem to think, as much as Incantatrix, Spelldancer, Nightsticks, etc. are. Without ways to mitigating it's cost, it's actually a fairly bad feat. In a normal environment, you're actually talking about Persistent Haste, not persistent Divine Power, persistent Righteous Might, or persistent Bite of the Werebear.

ErrantX
2009-11-11, 09:58 AM
While many people (myself included) will agree that mitigating the cost of metamagic is one of the more unbalanced tactics in 3.5, I must point out that core is perhaps the least balanced portion of 3.5.

Let me reiterate:

Core. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm) is. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) not. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm) balanced. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm)
(also (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBinding.htm), for (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti) your (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation) consideration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm), I'll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) suggest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm) these. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm))

Point to you sir. Good job :)

Also, to agree with other folks, DMM isn't terribly unbalanced. What makes it unbalanced is the unrestricted ability for min-maxers and overly lenient DM's making it so. To the OP, your solution isn't bad, but it does take almost all the bite out of the feat. May as well wait til you can metamagic the spell without then. Or take the Sudden feats.

-X

Sliver
2009-11-11, 10:04 AM
suggest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm)

Huh? While I understand the rest.. What is wrong with the archmage?

ex cathedra
2009-11-11, 10:17 AM
Huh? While I understand the rest.. What is wrong with the archmage?

While, admittedly, the archmage isn't actually that bad, it did kind of start the line of reasoning that you can make prestige classes for full casters and still give them awesome new class features while maintaining balance. Archmage is less a troublesome class and more a troublesome principle.

Optimystik
2009-11-11, 10:22 AM
While, admittedly, the archmage isn't actually that bad, it did kind of start the line of reasoning that you can make prestige classes for full casters and still give them awesome new class features while maintaining balance. Archmage is less a troublesome class and more a troublesome principle.

Archmage is not at fault here. 7FV, Incantatrix, and any other single-progression PrC without a dead level are the troublemakers. Archmage set a good precedent - WotC failed to continue following it.

cbs2186
2009-11-11, 10:28 AM
3.5 rules seemed to maintain that balance nicely in the core books.

Am I the only one that laughed when I read this?

Yes, DMM is strong. Yes, when you bring in Nightsticks it breaks... (unless your DM requires you to use Nightsticks for their intended purpose, Turning Undead).

DMM itself is fairly balanced with other full caster material.

ken-do-nim
2009-11-11, 10:30 AM
My idea for how to fix Divine Metamagic is to do just that. I think, to be internally consistent without nerfing the power, that a priest should have access to the spell level required to cast the modified spell to be able to use divine metamagic to reproduce the effects, without having to use up a spell slot for same. If she can cast 4th level spells, she can extend her Spiritual Weapon all she likes, but she doesnt have enough of her gods favor to pull off Divine Power yet ( just like she can not cast any other 5th level spell)

Any thoughts or comments?

Exactly what I do.

Sliver
2009-11-11, 10:44 AM
While, admittedly, the archmage isn't actually that bad, it did kind of start the line of reasoning that you can make prestige classes for full casters and still give them awesome new class features while maintaining balance. Archmage is less a troublesome class and more a troublesome principle.

But they aren't really free or something.. All the class features you want from him cost something.. A high level spell slot. With feats that you won't find that useful most of the times..

Giving you something after having you pay something, actually sounds like a good principle.. It makes you think before taking it anyway, as it may or may not be worth it.. PrCs that give you something awesome for little investment that you know you want, that is a bigger issue, but I don't really recall any core PrCs like that.. They didn't put out much core PrCs there so in core, in this area they managed not to screw things up.. IMO anyway..

Optimystik
2009-11-11, 11:00 AM
PrCs that give you something awesome for little investment that you know you want, that is a bigger issue, but I don't really recall any core PrCs like that.. They didn't put out much core PrCs there so in core, in this area they managed not to screw things up.. IMO anyway..

Well, there's very little reason to be a core summoner and not go into Thaumaturgist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm)... and the investment is next to nothing.

Loremaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/loremaster.htm) is also very powerful (not good for sorcerers/bards though), with requirements you'd likely be getting anyway.

Dimers
2009-11-11, 12:16 PM
I like the OP's suggested solution and have used it before (for all casting classes). Another possibility is requiring an extra round of casting time for each spell level added, which negates any possible misuse of Quicken Spell but really does nothing to change the benefit of Persistent Spell.

Temet Nosce
2009-11-11, 01:31 PM
12-13-2007

Mongoose87
2009-11-11, 01:34 PM
12-13-2007

Who cast "Animate Thread?"

Temet Nosce
2009-11-11, 01:37 PM
Who cast "Animate Thread?"

Tyndmyr is apparently practicing up on necromancy. Still, I have to admit it's amusing if only because no one noticed for so long.