PDA

View Full Version : Expanded feats (under construction)



hamstard4ever
2007-12-13, 07:38 PM
Here's something I've been thinking about for a while, although inspired by the "meaningless choices" thread I decided to sit down and get my thoughts in order. (Some of the buzz about 4e has contributed to my thinking too, although I was pondering these things before they started dropping hints about 4e, honest!)

See, everyone knows that there are a hell of a lot of subpar feats. Things like Weapon Focus and Skill Focus (let alone crap like Combat Casting, Endurance, and Toughness). The concept is that these things are supposed to be modular extensions to your character's abilities. The problem is that the designers, not wanting PCs to be able to just stack up ridiculous bonus modifiers, capped feat bonuses to trivial levels that didn't scale. Weapon Focus and Stealthy are marginal feats for a 10th level ranger, but completely useless for a 10th level wizard; if you want to be decent at something outside your class's focus, the only viable option is to save your feats and multiclass.

That works to an extent, but it tends to be a less elegant solution (some people in particular tend to spontaneously break out in hives whenever they see a multiclassed character). So here are my thoughts on reimagining core feats to make them into a more defining extension of your character's abilities.

First, some basic assumptions (please take a look at these before commenting):



These feats are going to be much more powerful than core feats. This is intentional! A character built with feats on this sort of scale is going to fall somewhere in-between a single-class character and a gestalt character powerwise; think of these feats offering sort of a mini-gestalt option, giving you part of the advantages of another class in addition to your base class. Actually, a character built with these feats will quite possibly still be less powerful overall than a standard multiclassed character in many cases. The main idea is to make it easier and more intuitive to build viable characters that stretch the boundaries of a single-class character without having to sort through a lot of classes and PrCs.
These feats still do not address the caster vs. noncaster balance problem. If anything, they'll undoubtedly make it worse, since casters are better able to pick up skillmonkey and fighting roles. The expanded Spell Focus feat below gives noncasters the ability to pick up some spellcasting ability, which hopefully goes a way towards balancing out the other feat concepts presented here, but does not address the core disparity between casters and noncasters. If these were to be used in serious play, it is strongly recommended you toss in the caster fix of your choice (which might simply be "do nothing and trust players to self-nerf as needed", if that's how you prefer to play).
Humans are potentially much more powerful than before, thanks to their new and improved bonus feat. I'd be inclined to houserule that other races get a bonus feat too, but make everyone else choose from a very small list of stereotypically race-appropriate feats. Examples:

Elf: Weapon Focus (longsword, rapier, shortbow, or longbow), Alertness, Self-Sufficient, Professional, Spell Focus (Enchantment), or Iron Will
Half-Elf: Any skill bonus feat
Dwarf: Weapon Focus (hand axe, dwarven waraxe, greataxe, or throwing axe), Diligent, Negotiator, Professional, Toughness, Great Fortitude
Halfling: Weapon Focus (sling, dagger, throwing axe, or light hammer), Acrobatic, Agile, Deft Hands, Professional, or Lightning Reflexes
Gnome: Magical Aptitude, Nimble Fingers, Deceitful, Persuasive, Professional, or Spell Focus (Illusion)
Orc/Half-Orc: Weapon Focus (any), Athletic, Persuasive, or Toughness

Bonus feats from classes are also much more powerful. This is probably not a huge issue for core classes--I haven't added much to fighter or wizard bonus feats, and the rogue's bonus feats (through special ability options) come at very high level and cost the rogue useful class abilities. Non-core classes with other bonus feat lists, such as the scout or hexblade, are getting the biggest boost. I do not foresee this being a terribly huge issue, however.
In general, these feats are really not designed to "play nice" with the vast majority of feats and prestige classes out there. In particular, they break a vast number of prerequisites. Bringing these into play would essentially require splatbook PrCs (and to a lesser extent feats) to be checked on a case-by-case basis for compatability, and many would have to be banned or houseruled into line. Since the point of this feat revision is largely to reduce the need to multiclass this does not seem intolerable to me.
It's Not Done. The ideas below are hardly comprehensive; there's plenty of room to bring other feats up to a similar level with these.
Overall, given the scope of the shift in power represented in this revision, the ideas here should be regarded more as the core of a sweeping homebrewed overhaul of the system rather than something to be just dropped in on top of everything else in 3.5.



Some basic general feats to start with (skill feats, saving throw feats, etc.):

Acrobatic [General] (see also Agile, Alertness, Animal Affinity, et al.)
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Jump checks and Tumble checks.
You are always considered to have skill ranks in Jump and Tumble equal to your character level +3. These bonus ranks do not cost any of your skill points.

Professional [General]
Benefit: Choose any combination of 2 subskills from Craft, Knowledge, Perform, or Profession. You gain a +2 bonus on the chosen skills.
You are always considered to have skill ranks in these two skills equal to your character level +3. These bonus ranks do not cost any of your skill points.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to two new skills.
*Really, all the various "+2 to two skills" feats could be rolled into this one, but I prefer keeping the original names for shorthand purposes.

Great Fortitude [General] (see also Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will)
Benefit: From now on your base Fortitude save is equal to 1/2 your HD + 4. (Assume fractional save rules are in effect)

Toughness [General]
Benefit: You gain hit points equal to your HD +3. This bonus continues to increase as you gain levels or hit dice, giving you an additional 1 hit point per level.
Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.


Weapon feats:

Weapon Focus [General, Fighter]
Benefit: Choose one weapon with which you are proficient (you may also choose unarmed strike, grapple, or ray spells as a weapon). Your base attack bonus on attack rolls with the selected weapon is considered to be equal to your HD, and you gain an additional +2 bonus on the attack roll. For all other purposes (including determining extra attacks on a full attack) your base attack bonus is unchanged.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

Greater Weapon Focus [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, character level 6th.
Benefit: When making a full attack with the selected weapon you may make a number of attacks with that weapon as if your base attack bonus was equal to your HD.
Special: You can gain Greater Weapon Focus multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

Weapon Proficiency[General, Fighter]
Benefit: You are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, plus one exotic weapon of your choice. You make attack rolls with these weapons normally.
Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special:
You can gain Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of exotic weapon.


OK, here's the big one: spellcasting feats. Since the feats above let spellcasters duplicate some of the abilities of fighters and skillmonkeys through feats, I think it's only fair that I let them duplicate some of the spellcasters' abilities with feats.

It's somewhat more complicated than I would have liked, and still a work in progress, but I'm pretty happy with it as a start. Of course spellcasters still benefit in that they can gain spellcasting from a second class as well, but the big balancing factor here is the MAD; sure you potentially get 7th level spellcasting for a single feat, but getting just a single 7th level spell per day requires you to cough up a +7 ability score modifier. At low levels this version of Spell Focus can easily give spellcasters a badly needed extra spell or two per day at the cost of a small amount of MAD, but at high levels you face higher costs for comparatively smaller benefits.

I went ahead and limited the choices for additional spellcasting to Archivist, Favored Soul, Wizard, Warmage, and Sorcerer in order to maximize the amount of MAD (bards picking up Sorcerer spells would be a bit of a no-brainer, I'm afraid, but I don't foresee too much brokenness coming from that quarter; I think warmage spellcasting is going to be pretty non-broken even for a CHA-based caster, so they should be safe to include too).

Spell Focus [General]
Benefit: Choose a school of magic. Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against spells from the school of magic you select.
When casting spells from the selected school of magic, your base caster level before other modifiers is equal to your HD.

Additionally, choose one of the following spellcasting classes (even one you do not have any levels in): Archivist, Favored Soul, Wizard, Warmage, or Sorcerer. You gain a number of bonus spell slots for that spellcasting class, one per spell level, based on your character level and ability score as given on the table below. Even if you do not have levels in the chosen class or do not normally have access to spells of that normal for that class, you may prepare and/or cast spells using these provisional slots just as a member of the chosen class does, although these provisional slots do not give you any additional spells for having a high ability score. If the chosen spellcasting class has a limited number of spells known, you have a minimum of 2 spells known for each spell level you have access to. You may only use these bonus slots to prepare or cast spells of schools you have Spell Focus in.

Your provisional spellcasting is limited to the base spell list of the chosen class (Archivists use the main cleric list); you cannot expand your spell list for these provisional slots or use a provisional slot to cast a spell outside your list by any means.

If you already have or later gain levels in the chosen class, the bonus slot granted by this feat does not stack with and is subsumed by your regular spell allotment for each level you can cast, although you may still gain bonus slots for levels you do not normally have access to yet.

{table=head]Spell Level|Required Spellcasting Ability Score*|Required Character Level or HD

1st|12 (+1)|1

2nd|14 (+2)|4

3rd|16 (+3)|7

4th|18 (+4)|10

5th|20 (+5)|13

6th|22 (+6)|16

7th|24 (+7)|19[/table]
*For the purposes of these requirements, use Intelligence score for wizard casting, Charisma for sorcerer and warmage casting, and Wisdom for archivist and favored soul casting.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new school of magic. You do not gain any additional slots in any spellcasting class, but may use the bonus slots you have to prepare and/or cast spells from any school you have Spell Focus in.

A specialist wizard who chooses to add their bonus slots to their wizard spellcasting is still not allowed to prepare or cast wizard spells from their banned schools. Spell slots added as another spellcasting class are not limited by banned schools.



It occurs to me that I'm definitely moving in the distinct direction of generic classes here (as in the Unearthed Arcana variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm), although other generic class systems exist). That's OK by me, but I'm still rather attached to the idea of using standard classes as a starting point. I've never been a fan of UA's particular scheme, but I think it might be appropriate to migrate over some of the bonus feat ideas, with appropriate modifications (most of the UA ideas are not built with scaling in mind, for example, and don't operate on the same scope as the ideas here).

Arakune
2007-12-13, 08:12 PM
So, weapon focus only give you a +2 bonus instead of +1 bonus and doesn't count towards anything else except to hit?

Crappy as always...:smallwink:

Charlie Kemek
2007-12-13, 10:42 PM
Ahem, a few problems w/ your spell focus.
one: sorcerers w/ heal, clerics with chain lightning, both no-nos, limit it to only spellcasting classes the same type as yours (arcane or divine)
Two: according two what you said, a wizard can take this feat for a school they already prohibited, change that

hamstard4ever
2007-12-13, 11:28 PM
So, weapon focus only give you a +2 bonus instead of +1 bonus and doesn't count towards anything else except to hit?

Crappy as always...:smallwink:

Well, crappy for a fighter, sure (although ever so slightly less crappy since the bonus is bumped up). The idea behind these feat changes is to make them more effective for expanding character abilities rather than simply trying to min-max the abilities you already have. The new version of, say, Alertness is much more useful for a fighter than it is for a ranger or rogue; similarly, the new version of Weapon Focus is more useful for a combat-inclined rogue or wizard than it is for a fighter, since it boosts their attack bonus with that weapon to what a fighter would get--that's +3 to begin with, pretty huge for level 1, and it scales up from there.

They still don't get extra iterative attacks, though. I considered doing that but was afraid it would overshadow full BAB classes worse than the skill feats overshadow skillmonkeys and way way worse than Spell Focus dims full casters. Maybe add a second feat to the chain (with no fighter level prerequisite, of course) to allow them to make iterative attacks with the chosen weapon as if they had full BAB = HD?


Ahem, a few problems w/ your spell focus.
one: sorcerers w/ heal, clerics with chain lightning, both no-nos, limit it to only spellcasting classes the same type as yours (arcane or divine)

Those are 6th level spells, available at 16th level through Spell Focus. A 16th level sorcerer would need a WIS score of 22+ just to cast Heal once per day calthough they would get a handful of lower level spells as well); a 16th level Cleric would need INT/CHA of 22+ for one Chain Lightning/day.

Compare to a 16th level Mystic Theurge build. Sorcerer 4/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 9 gets 7th level Sorcerer and Cleric spells and gets a full spell loadout for each. Yes, the multiclass MT build is much more demanding and costs a lot more (such as being down a full level of spells); you also get a lot more. The entire point of the feat revisions here is to produce a simpler (sort of, in the case of Spell Focus, although I'm working on streamlining it a bit) alternative to multiclassing, to allow players to give their characters abilities entirely outside the normal scope of their class abilities.

Besides, the Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine already gives sorcerers access to cleric spells (including Heal) more easily than this does, having much milder MAD demands.


Two: according two what you said, a wizard can take this feat for a school they already prohibited, change that

Well, if a wizard with a really high CHA or WIS wants to be able to cast a tiny number of sorcerer or cleric spells of the same school as his banned school, that's fine by me (admittedly it is slightly silly on paper to have a conjurer who has banned enchantment taking Spell Focus (enchantment), but this isn't much different from a specialist who takes a dip in sorcerer or beguiler to get access to banned schools). However, it's not clear about what happens if a wizard tries to add the bonus spells to his wizard casting progression, so that needs to be corrected. Thanks for the catch.

Charlie Kemek
2007-12-14, 09:44 AM
Ahem,
a sorcerrer taking conj. specilization, useing sujunia (i forget how to spell it). it gets all the healing spells, and uses char.

Ne0
2007-12-14, 09:52 AM
So at level 1, a character can have a base saving throw of +4? :smallconfused:
Needs some fixing, but it's a great idea! I always felt that such feats were a bit useless compared to the feats from supplement books...

hamstard4ever
2007-12-14, 11:32 AM
So at level 1, a character can have a base saving throw of +4? :smallconfused:

Well, yes. This doesn't allow you to get level 1 saves any higher than what was possible before, it just makes really good saves more accessible. Before, a level 1 wizard with Iron Will had a total Will bonus of 4 + WIS modifier (2 base + 2 feat bonus + WIS); now a wizard with Iron Will would get the same bonus as before, a barbarian or rogue who takes Iron Will would also have a total Will bonus of 4 + WIS modifier (4 base + WIS). The idea, as with the other feats, is that anything you take a feat for is something you are good at, period, rather than something you are slightly better at than before.

I didn't think it was really worthwhile to bother distinguishing the base save bonus from the other +2; I know there are a handful of feats/classes out there in splatbook land that use base saves as prerequisites, but these are semi-broken to begin with (due to how saves work when multiclassing) and should be allowed on a case by case basis.


Ahem,
a sorcerrer taking conj. specilization, useing sujunia (i forget how to spell it). it gets all the healing spells, and uses char.

Oops. I was thinking that all divine casters used Wisdom for at least part of their spellcasting; looks like I was wrong. I still don't think this is particularly terrible in and of itself (still only 1 shugenja conjuration per level) but it does provide more synergy than intended. I think I will limit the choices on what classes you can choose from. This doesn't stop the reverse (shugenjas can still pick up sorcerer casting for CHA synergy), but it's a start. At least the shugenja spell list already has a relatively large overlap with sorcerer/wizard spells...

Yakk
2007-12-14, 12:55 PM
Re: Great Toughness

That is pretty much a Toughness that doesn't work once your HD hit a d12.

Instead I'd steal the 4e Toughness: Gain 1 HP per level, plus 3.

That works very similar (it is a bit stronger), except that it works for Barbarians from the get-go.

...

The Spellcasting: I don't see how it steals the thunder of spellcasters, other than moving it between spellcasters?

hamstard4ever
2007-12-14, 01:17 PM
Hmm. You know, I originally had a reason I didn't want Toughness to go beyond a d12, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was. You're right though; a straight bonus is also much simpler.

Note that Spell Focus does not actually require spellcasting of any sort; it doesn't just move spellcasting between spellcasters, it spreads it around to anyone who wants it. A 1st level fighter with a halfway decent score in one of his mental attributes can take the Spell Focus feat and start casting spells right off the bat. Turns him into kind of a pseudo-Duskblade. I'm not exactly concerned with non-spellcasters overshadowing spellcasters (yeah, right) but I figured this feature might arouse some objection. Since generally you're still a much crappier spellcaster than a plain Duskblade it's not really much of an increase in power, it just represents increased flexibility--you're not limited to specific classes or multiclass combos, so anyone can tack on a splash of spell ability, with more options for spell picks.

(In terms of viability it's still heavily lacking compared to multiclassing options, so it's still a work in progress. I'm pondering further extensions but the balance of these demands careful consideration.)

As mentioned above this does break the hell out of PrC requirements, assuming Spell Focus spells are counted for meeting prerequisites. For a lot of your basic PrCs I don't see any reason to care about this--a Fighter 10/Eldritch Knight 10 is going to be a seriously subpar gish (even assuming you count their EK progression as letting them cast as a 9th level wizard/sorcerer, based on their Spell Focus casting). Even Fighter 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 10 (14th level casting) really isn't anything to write home about. A lot of more caster-oriented PrCs (including anything with dual spellcasting progression) would be hugely breakable and would need to be banned or revised, however. I'm not crying any tears about losing them, though.

souldoubt
2007-12-14, 06:33 PM
Very interesting. I've been working on something very similar to this, but I don't think my "feat fixes" are quite as uber as yours, so from my point of view they look a little overpowered. Of course, you admitted yourself that they're bound to look that way.

I agree with Yakk on the Toughness feat. Scaling HD means the barbarian has no use for the feat. I use: Toughness adds +1 HP per HD (though I didn't get the idea from 4e; don't know where I came across it), so that it scales properly and is more useful at a range of different levels.

My "bonus spell" feats, so to speak, are different, and don't allow casters to gain "cross-class spells," but it does allow non-casters to acquire some limited spellcasting abilities without multiclassing. Feel free to take a look at them:

Magical Aptitude [General]
Prerequisite: No spellcasting ability.
Benefit: Choose any one spellcasting class. You can cast a number of 0-level spells equal to you magic rating (variant rule from the SRD) as the class you have chosen.
Special: This feat enables non-spellcasters to fulfill the prerequisites for Spell Insight. See the Spell Insight feat below.

Spell Insight [General]
Prerequisite: The ability to cast spells.
Benefit: Choose any one school of magic that is not prohibited to you and is otherwise appropriate to your character. You gain a number of bonus spells in the chosen school of magic. The number of bonus spells you would receive from a high ability score is effectively doubled, but the new extra bonus slots can only be filled by spells of the chosen school. A paladin may choose to take bonus spells as a cleric with levels equal his/her magic rating (variant rule from the SRD), and a ranger may do likewise with respect to druid spells, if desired.
Special: Characters of non-spellcasting classes who have taken the Magical Aptitude feat are eligble to take Spell Insight. Consult the progression table of the class that the character chose to cast 0-level spells from; use the character's magic rating in place of class level in order to determine the highest spell level he/she can cast according to that class's table. A character with Magical Aptitude who takes Spell Insight gains only the bonus spells from the chosen school, in addition to whatever 0-level spells he/she can cast.


Someday I'll finish the whole set and get around to posting a thread.

hamstard4ever
2007-12-14, 09:48 PM
Very interesting. I've been working on something very similar to this, but I don't think my "feat fixes" are quite as uber as yours, so from my point of view they look a little overpowered. Of course, you admitted yourself that they're bound to look that way.

Well, yes. Remember also that by and large these feats don't do a lot in terms of pushing any absolute limits; mostly they just let you widen your abilities while staying in-class. Stealthy doesn't make rogues any better at hiding than before, Weapon Focus only makes fighters marginally better with the chosen weapon than it did before, Lightning Reflexes gives monks the same reflex save it used to, Spell Focus... well, admittedly just about everybody gets something new out of Spell Focus now, but a single-class spellcaster doesn't get any benefits in their own spellcasting progression except what they've always been getting.


I agree with Yakk on the Toughness feat. Scaling HD means the barbarian has no use for the feat. I use: Toughness adds +1 HP per HD (though I didn't get the idea from 4e; don't know where I came across it), so that it scales properly and is more useful at a range of different levels.

I think my original idea was basically that, since the other feats give limited value for classes who are already good at something, Toughness should have similar restraints. But even with the scaling it's still easily one of the weakest feats here, so for balance and simplicity I guess it might as well just be a flat +1 per HD. Besides, it already has a smaller relative impact for barbarians than for scrawny d4 types who don't have much HP to begin with.


My "bonus spell" feats, so to speak, are different, and don't allow casters to gain "cross-class spells," but it does allow non-casters to acquire some limited spellcasting abilities without multiclassing. Feel free to take a look at them:

Interesting! I think I may have to steal the idea of a starter feat a la your "Magical Aptitude" concept, if you don't mind; it greatly simplifies things and smooths out the power curve a bit, particularly when it comes to cross-classing casters. Personally, from a perspective of balance I'd rather see casters gaining cross-class spells than them getting extra bonus slots for their main spellcasting progression, although your way does have the advantage of breaking fewer PrCs. Or at least most people would call that an advantage; me, I'm quite happy taking a wrecking ball to the lot of 'em. :smalltongue:

Unfortunately, under that system there is the thorny issue of what happens when someone with Magical Aptitude tries to multiclass. Are they simply not allowed to take any levels of spellcasting classes, ever (with the possible exception of the class they chose for Magical Aptitude in the first place), without losing the feats they've spent?

I see you also went with the idea of school selection as a limiting factor on spell access. It's an idea I'm pretty fond of, although I'll admit it kind of makes extending spellcasting abilities a bit of a bugger, especially when you're dealing with feats as "chunky" as I am with this system. My ideal concept would be a system where you could make a functional and balanced gish by going Fighter 20 and spending all your general feats on spellcasting, rather than winding up with something like Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Bladesinger 1/Eldritch Knight 7. Unlike some I am not of the opinion that there is anything inherently wrong with that approach; I just think the process should be simpler. Of course, I'm still wrestling with figuring out how extensions to spellcasting should work, so I've got a ways to go yet.