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Executor
2007-12-15, 07:00 PM
Reading the Roman Legions vs Uruk-hai thread, I got an idea. What would it be like if, instead of Gondorrim, Minas Tirith was garrisoned by, say, five legions of experience Roman troops of the Marian Era with attached auxilaries, commanded by everyone's favourite Roman, Gaius Julius Caesar. Pitted against Caesar's 29,200 Romans are the 180,000 Orcs, Haradrim, Easterlings, Trolls and Mumakil of the Morgul host. Now, assuming the Romans have the assistance of Gandalf, the men of Rohan are riding to their assistance, and Aragorn is bringing up the armies of southern Gondor, and the Romans have knowledge of Nazgul, Mumakil, Orcs, etc, could Caesar win this battle?

I think so. The Romans were very good siege engineers, in both attack and defense. Caesar would utilize both onagers, ballistae and scorpions mounted upon towers and walls to great effect. Here is the make-up of the five Roman legions who will defend Minas Tirith (or Mina Tirithium as Romans would call it)

-600 cavalry auxilaries
-26,000 legionaries
-2,600 auxilaries (archers, javelineers, etc)
-50 onagers (10 per legion, 1 per cohort)
-300 ballistae (60 per legion, 1 per centuria)

Could this force of Romans hold off the orcs? And if not, what Roman army could do so?

Rowanomicon
2007-12-15, 07:07 PM
Well if they had Gandalf on their side then Gandalf would have set his plans in motion and The Ring would get destroyed so... Yes, the Romans would win.

Turcano
2007-12-15, 07:31 PM
Caesar won the Battle of Alesia, in which he besieged a city and was besieged himself, against an army twice that size. No contest.

EvilElitest
2007-12-15, 10:21 PM
1. Do the Rider of Rohan and Aragorn still show up?
2. Is this movie or book based?
3. Wait, are those forces named per legion or overall
4. I think the romans need more guys, there were a lot of gondorians at the battle.
5. is gandalf still there?
6. Do the romans get acess to the fortress
7. Do the romans get the gondorian armor?
8. Will events still occur? Like Eowyn slaying the WK?
9. Magic? Does it effect them
10. Who leads the Romans?
11. Is denathor there? Does he go insane
12. Do they get warning of what is going to occur
13. Do their enemies get warning?

Oh and two other points
1. Time limit before battle?
2. I have to say exacutor, you really do make good vs. threads

If all of the above, than i'd say yes, the Romans would most likely do better
from,
EE

Neftren
2007-12-15, 10:40 PM
Well... I think that to start, you'll have to find a way to eliminate the enemy siege engines. I figure that part should be simple enough with the Ballistae. Romans weren't really the best marksmen in my opinion... the English were better... but arrows are what'll save you if you're on a wall 30 feet up. Volley after volley will eventually incapacitate the orcs, if they have no way of breaching the walls. With the phalanx tactics applied on the wall, no arrow volleys or shrapnel should cause major damage to the formation, and anything coming up a ladder gets gutted by a spear...

EvilElitest
2007-12-15, 10:44 PM
Well... I think that to start, you'll have to find a way to eliminate the enemy siege engines. I figure that part should be simple enough with the Ballistae. Romans weren't really the best marksmen in my opinion... the English were better... but arrows are what'll save you if you're on a wall 30 feet up. Volley after volley will eventually incapacitate the orcs, if they have no way of breaching the walls. With the phalanx tactics applied on the wall, no arrow volleys or shrapnel should cause major damage to the formation, and anything coming up a ladder gets gutted by a spear...

If this is the movie, swarm tatics, seige towers, massive ladders, and Gronde will do the trick, along with the nazgul and Catapults

But i don't know if we are doing book or movie
from,
EE

Executor
2007-12-16, 12:10 AM
It is book based (I feel the book battle was superior to the movie battle). Yes, events like Eowyn vs Witch-king still happen because Eowyn isn't replaced with a Roman. The Rohirrim still come down and Aragorn still shows up, Gandalf is still a commander of the Minas Tirith garrison.

Gaius Julius Caesar commands the Roman Legions.

That was the overall make-up of the Roman forces. 600 cavalry, 26,000 legionaries, and 2,600 auxilaries split between five legions of roughly 5,000 men each.

Yes, the Romans know in advance that the Orcs are coming. One can presume that Gandalf briefed Caesar about them [orcs] and their ways.

And there weren't many Gondorrim in the battle. By my count, 3,000 from all over northern Gondor garrisoned the city, and another 2,000 from southern Gondor came up with Aragorn on the Corsair ships. 6,000 Rohirrim also arrived, putting the total amount of Allied forces on the field of Pelennor at 11,000, give or take. The Roman host is far more than that, but still greatly outnumbered by the Morgul army.

I'd think magic effects Romans in the same way it effects Gondorrim. They fear the Nazgul, that fear is lifted when Gandalf is near, etc.

No, the Romans have their own armour and weapons. Lorica, scuta, gladius, pilae, standard legionary gear.

Yes, the orcs know that the Romans are garrisoning Minas Tirith.

Of course the Romans have access to the fortress. They are replacing the Minas Tirith garrison in their role in the battle.

EvilElitest
2007-12-16, 12:52 AM
It is book based (I feel the book battle was superior to the movie battle). Yes, events like Eowyn vs Witch-king still happen because Eowyn isn't replaced with a Roman. The Rohirrim still come down and Aragorn still shows up, Gandalf is still a commander of the Minas Tirith garrison.

Gaius Julius Caesar commands the Roman Legions.

That was the overall make-up of the Roman forces. 600 cavalry, 26,000 legionaries, and 2,600 auxilaries split between five legions of roughly 5,000 men each.

Yes, the Romans know in advance that the Orcs are coming. One can presume that Gandalf briefed Caesar about them [orcs] and their ways.

And there weren't many Gondorrim in the battle. By my count, 3,000 from all over northern Gondor garrisoned the city, and another 2,000 from southern Gondor came up with Aragorn on the Corsair ships. 6,000 Rohirrim also arrived, putting the total amount of Allied forces on the field of Pelennor at 11,000, give or take. The Roman host is far more than that, but still greatly outnumbered by the Morgul army.

I'd think magic effects Romans in the same way it effects Gondorrim. They fear the Nazgul, that fear is lifted when Gandalf is near, etc.

No, the Romans have their own armour and weapons. Lorica, scuta, gladius, pilae, standard legionary gear.

Yes, the orcs know that the Romans are garrisoning Minas Tirith.

Of course the Romans have access to the fortress. They are replacing the Minas Tirith garrison in their role in the battle.

I really have to hand this to the Romans, there are only three things the men of gondor have that the Romans don't have

1. They know the layout of the land
2. Much better armor
3. Experience with orcs and other monsters

If the Romans can not get their moral crushed by the nazgul and monsters from mordor, than i'd say it was a victory for the Romans unless the WK was allowed to use meta gaming knowlage or was given more forces
from,
EE

Dervag
2007-12-16, 01:25 AM
If this is the movie, swarm tatics, seige towers, massive ladders, and Gronde will do the trick, along with the nazgul and CatapultsThe Nazgul would be a nasty shock for the Romans, but nothing else would be. And all the Romans have to do is hold out in Minas Tirith until the Riders of Rohan and Aragorn's army of the dead arrive. I think that a Roman force could easily hold out as long as an equal force of Gondorrim, especially with Gandalf bolstering them against the Nazgul.


Gaius Julius Caesar commands the Roman Legions.Win to the Romans, definitely. Caesar was so superior to Denethor as a general that there is no comparison, even if one accepts that the Commentaries are blatant self-promotion.


And there weren't many Gondorrim in the battle. By my count, 3,000 from all over northern Gondor garrisoned the city, and another 2,000 from southern Gondor came up with Aragorn on the Corsair ships. 6,000 Rohirrim also arrived, putting the total amount of Allied forces on the field of Pelennor at 11,000, give or take. The Roman host is far more than that, but still greatly outnumbered by the Morgul army.Again, edge to the Romans. Even if the Romans only had equal numbers to the city garrison, they'd still be able to win if Theoden and Aragorn showed up on schedule. With numbers so much greater than the historical Gondorrim, I'm willing to go out on a limb and say they could give Sauron a run for his money at the Black Gates.

warty goblin
2007-12-16, 01:54 AM
I actually read a rather serious piece of scholarship claiming that the Gondorians were basicaly Rome in Middle Earth, and the whole Rohirrim to the rescue bit was a sort of recast of the Fall and, in this case, rebirth of the Roman Empire. Not sure how much I belive it, but it seemed pretty reasonable.

Given that, I'd say that the orcs do about as well as they did in the books.

SmartAlec
2007-12-16, 03:43 AM
I actually read a rather serious piece of scholarship claiming that the Gondorians were basicaly Rome in Middle Earth.

Not quite Rome. More like Byzantium, I think.

Especially if you see the fall of Arnor as the equivalent of the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire, and the slow decline of Gondor as paralleling the decline and fall of the Byzantine Empire.

You could even make a case for the appearance of the Knights of Dol Amroth among Gondor's forces as similar to Byzantium's abandoning classical Roman infantry-based tactics and becoming dependent on mounted Cataphracts.

Heck, I've been pre-empted: http://us.geocities.com/davidbofinger/numenor.htm

(Edited for clarity)

kpenguin
2007-12-16, 04:40 AM
Not quite Rome. More like Byzantium, I think.

:smallconfused: I think its definitely Rome, unless there's another Gaius Julius Caesar I haven't heard of.

And besides, the Byzantine empire was essentially the heir to ancient Rome anyway.

Turcano
2007-12-16, 05:20 AM
:smallconfused: I think its definitely Rome, unless there's another Gaius Julius Caesar I haven't heard of.

He was referring to Gondor's role in the books, not the scenario at hand.

And Julius Caesar was the fourth member of his family to bear that name.

Dervag
2007-12-16, 10:34 AM
He was referring to Gondor's role in the books, not the scenario at hand.

And Julius Caesar was the fourth member of his family to bear that name.But were any of the others famous generals?

EvilElitest
2007-12-16, 11:40 AM
I don't really think the orcs have a chance unless we give them some more advantages
from,
EE

....
2007-12-16, 04:22 PM
I don't really think the orcs have a chance unless we give them some more advantages
from,
EE

What if we give them all five levels in either warblade, wizard, or warlock?

Zenos
2007-12-16, 04:45 PM
What if we give them all five levels in either warblade, wizard, or warlock?

Joke, right?

warty goblin
2007-12-16, 04:48 PM
Well, in regards to the siege, there's still the orcish siege engines which are frankly obsenely good. In the book they are described as throwing projectiles over the walls of Minas Tirith from outside bowshot. I bet that's a good deal better than any Roman equivilent engine.

LordVader
2007-12-16, 04:52 PM
The Nazgul would be a very big problem for the Romans, as would the trolls. Gondorian soldiers, I would argue, would actually perform better at least against trolls because of their familitarity with the beasts. A Roman soldier would be very unnerved and would have no idea how to combat a troll successfully.

warty goblin
2007-12-16, 04:55 PM
The Nazgul would be a very big problem for the Romans, as would the trolls. Gondorian soldiers, I would argue, would actually perform better at least against trolls because of their familitarity with the beasts. A Roman soldier would be very unnerved and would have no idea how to combat a troll successfully.

Oh, good point. Shield walls and short swords do not trolls kill. Its rather the other way around actually...

LordVader
2007-12-16, 04:57 PM
Romans did have spears, but I think the psychological impact of being told you're the best, and believing it, and then coming up against something that quite frankly eats you for breakfast, would be very disconcerting. I don't think they'd do very well against Mumakil either. Sure, they've fought elephants, but Mumakil are elephants on steroids.

warty goblin
2007-12-16, 05:06 PM
Romans did have spears, but I think the psychological impact of being told you're the best, and believing it, and then coming up against something that quite frankly eats you for breakfast, would be very disconcerting. I don't think they'd do very well against Mumakil either. Sure, they've fought elephants, but Mumakil are elephants on steroids.

Given troll's extremely tough hide, I'm not sure how effective spears will be. Boromir, who is no weakling, couldn't cut an ordinary cave troll with his sword, or even make it notice him, I'm not sure why a spear will work better- particularly given that Boromir was using a medival style sword, which would have been longer, heavier and likely more optimized for cutting given the way that people in LOTR fight.

LordVader
2007-12-16, 05:16 PM
Spears are necessary because they have mild reach. As you pointed out, gladiuses are going to be zero-effective against trolls.

Executor
2007-12-16, 06:43 PM
I believe the Romans would try to use scorpions where ever possible against trolls. Looking at the movie version of the battle, when the trolls came through the gates, the Romans probably would've had a line of carroballistae (ballista mounted on carts for quick and easy movement) to hit the trolls with a volley of heavy bolts thrown at an extreme velocity, then retreat behind a line of legionaries and lancea (spear-wielding auxilaries). The legionaries would throw their pilae, which would've further injured or killed the trolls and then the orcish ferocity would be pitted against Roman discipline. Of course, I intended to go by the book version of this battle, in which case only Gandalf could confront the Witch-King and give the Romans time to reform.

Mumakil is another issue that varies between movie and book. In the book, they are basically today's elephants, but slightly larger. In the movie, they're like AT-ATs in size. In any case, the Romans met and countered elephants during the Punic Wars. At the Battle of Zama, they realized that turning a charging elephant (or mumak, presumably) is extremely difficult, the Romans simply stepped out of the way and they bombarded the beasts with javelins as they charged through the 'channels' in the Roman lines'. There are also descriptions of elephants being turned aside by pigs doused in oil and set alight and they herded towards them. Whether this would work on mumakil is anyone's guess.

LordVader
2007-12-16, 06:51 PM
The problem with using ballistae on trolls is that there will be more than one line of trolls coming through the gate. The ballistas would kill (or injure, if they missed the heart or head trolls are so tough I think they might not die) the first line but would not have enough time to fire again before more trolls came plowing into Roman lines.

Also, I would rate the Easterlings as capable of taking on a Roman soldier in H2H combat, and they'd follow the trolls in through the gate, not the orks. Accompanied by any Mordor Uruk-hai that there happened to be.

warty goblin
2007-12-16, 09:19 PM
The problem with using ballistae on trolls is that there will be more than one line of trolls coming through the gate. The ballistas would kill (or injure, if they missed the heart or head trolls are so tough I think they might not die) the first line but would not have enough time to fire again before more trolls came plowing into Roman lines.

Also, I would rate the Easterlings as capable of taking on a Roman soldier in H2H combat, and they'd follow the trolls in through the gate, not the orks. Accompanied by any Mordor Uruk-hai that there happened to be.

It also assumes that they've not been rendered unusable by the volleys of catapult rocks coming over the wall. Ballistas are not the most durable of items, and if I'm bringing an army through the gate, I'd soften up the defenses there first as much as possible.

EvilElitest
2007-12-16, 09:42 PM
hey exacutor, i htink that oliphaunts are even bigger in the book. In the book it says that not such beasts ever reached such size and today's elephaunts are just a tiny cousin, a tribute to their size

Also the haradrim were for of a danger in the books
from,
EE

Anteros
2007-12-16, 10:09 PM
Well, the trolls could do severe damage to a roman line, there is no doubt about that...but I don't think there are nearly enough of those to swing the battle in the orcs favor. As far as the oliphaunts or whatever, the Romans would be extremely hard pressed to deal with them...but then, they don't really have to, do they? I mean...they can just stay inside the city. Something that huge aint coming through the gate or through a wall breach. Minis Tirith is an extremely strong fortress and I don' see them battering their way in either. (Despite the way the movie depicts the walls falling apart every time they are touched by anything at all.)

EvilElitest
2007-12-16, 10:23 PM
Important to remember is that the mordor have only a day and a night to destroy the city before the riders of rohan show up (does the anti sun magic still get dispelled by the way?) And then they have mabye an hour and a half to destroy the riders before aragorn shows up
Another question, the two armies that are present at the battle but never fight do they show up?
from,
EE

Ego Slayer
2007-12-16, 10:32 PM
I only just saw the thread title out of the corner of my eye, and I thought it said "Romance at the Pelennor Fields." That is all I have to say. Carry on. o.o;

EvilElitest
2007-12-16, 10:44 PM
I only just saw the thread title out of the corner of my eye, and I thought it said "Romance at the Pelennor Fields." That is all I have to say. Carry on. o.o;

ah, that makes so much sense
from,
EE

SmartAlec
2007-12-17, 06:36 AM
Minis Tirith is an extremely strong fortress and I don' see them battering their way in either. (Despite the way the movie depicts the walls falling apart every time they are touched by anything at all.)

In the book, the outer wall of Minas Tirith is made of the same black rock as Isengard/Orthanc; indestructible. The only weak spot is the gate, and that's exactly why the Orcs go for the gate and the ramparts and don't bother with any kind of sapping.

So, yeah! Pretty strong.

Dervag
2007-12-17, 08:22 AM
Well, in regards to the siege, there's still the orcish siege engines which are frankly obsenely good. In the book they are described as throwing projectiles over the walls of Minas Tirith from outside bowshot. I bet that's a good deal better than any Roman equivilent engine.First off, the strength of the orcs' siege weapons doesn't help them any more against the Romans than it would against the men of Gondor- they still can't completely smash the defenses to the point where their troops can charge through breaches in the walls.

Second of all, siege weapons outrange bows almost by default; otherwise they would not be useful siege weapons because their crews would be vulnerable to the defenders' return fire.


The Nazgul would be a very big problem for the Romans, as would the trolls. Gondorian soldiers, I would argue, would actually perform better at least against trolls because of their familitarity with the beasts. A Roman soldier would be very unnerved and would have no idea how to combat a troll successfully.Well, once you've seen them wander around with a few dozen arrows sticking out of them for a while, you get the idea. The solution is probably going to involve either setting a trap, shooting them full of spears and arrows and hoping for the best, or soldiers with long pikes. And the Romans did use pikes for some purposes. Among others, they used them to fight war elephants- real ones, not office-building sized Mumakil. Legionnaires didn't fight exclusively with their short swords; that was just the weapon that their front-rankers would use while fighting in a shield wall. Moreover, we know the Gondorians won the battle without having any super-effective anti-troll tactics. All the Romans need is to be about as strong a defense force as the historical Gondor garrison. Given that they will be extremely effective against the orcs, the fact that they'll have trouble fighting the trolls won't be as important. And with a commander like Caesar in charge, they'll be setting ambushes for the trolls in short order once they realize the enemy has the things.


Romans did have spears, but I think the psychological impact of being told you're the best, and believing it, and then coming up against something that quite frankly eats you for breakfast, would be very disconcerting. I don't think they'd do very well against Mumakil either. Sure, they've fought elephants, but Mumakil are elephants on steroids.Yes, but the Mumakil can't get inside the walls, and the Romans don't have to do any more against them than the Gondorians did (i.e. very little) in order to win the battle, as with the trolls.


Given troll's extremely tough hide, I'm not sure how effective spears will be. Boromir, who is no weakling, couldn't cut an ordinary cave troll with his sword, or even make it notice him, I'm not sure why a spear will work better- particularly given that Boromir was using a medival style sword, which would have been longer, heavier and likely more optimized for cutting given the way that people in LOTR fight.Cutting is a lousy way to penetrate a tough hide or a layer of armor, because it spreads the force of the attack over a larger area. A spearthrust will penetrate much more effectively, which is why hunters in pre-gunpowder societies generally used spears to kill big game, rather than swords or axes.


There are also descriptions of elephants being turned aside by pigs doused in oil and set alight and they herded towards them. Whether this would work on mumakil is anyone's guess.You'd need a very, very large pig.


It also assumes that they've not been rendered unusable by the volleys of catapult rocks coming over the wall. Ballistas are not the most durable of items, and if I'm bringing an army through the gate, I'd soften up the defenses there first as much as possible.It's not difficult to place ballistae (or just about anything) in positions where it will be virtually impossible for catapults to hit them. For instance, you can place them right up against a wall, at the base on your side. Incoming boulders on arching trajectories won't hit them directly, and if you can rig a roof any collapsing bits of stone won't hit them either.

LordVader
2007-12-17, 03:33 PM
Well, the trolls could do severe damage to a roman line, there is no doubt about that...but I don't think there are nearly enough of those to swing the battle in the orcs favor. As far as the oliphaunts or whatever, the Romans would be extremely hard pressed to deal with them...but then, they don't really have to, do they? I mean...they can just stay inside the city. Something that huge aint coming through the gate or through a wall breach. Minis Tirith is an extremely strong fortress and I don' see them battering their way in either. (Despite the way the movie depicts the walls falling apart every time they are touched by anything at all.)


You see, the thing is, they don't need a lot of trolls, even though there are (I would say hundreds of trolls, is a probable number). In the confined city streets the trolls will wreak absolute havoc. Roman spears will not be all that effective, and the trolls will kills dozens of soldiers at a time, horribly demoralizing and likely routing the rest. They will be followed in by Easterlings, soldiers I would rate as being equal to Romans in combat capabilities, if not better, and the largest, meanest Orcs and Uruk-Hai Mordor has to offer up. I also believe that Gondorian soldiers are armored, equipped and trained at least as well as Roman soldiers are, so I don't think the Romans have any definite advantage over the Gondorians in terms of quality of their respective soldiers.


Also, aren't Gondorian archers better than Roman ones? (i.e., the make of their bows)

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 04:37 PM
You see, the thing is, they don't need a lot of trolls, even though there are (I would say hundreds of trolls, is a probable number). In the confined city streets the trolls will wreak absolute havoc. Roman spears will not be all that effective, and the trolls will kills dozens of soldiers at a time, horribly demoralizing and likely routing the rest. They will be followed in by Easterlings, soldiers I would rate as being equal to Romans in combat capabilities, if not better, and the largest, meanest Orcs and Uruk-Hai Mordor has to offer up. I also believe that Gondorian soldiers are armored, equipped and trained at least as well as Roman soldiers are, so I don't think the Romans have any definite advantage over the Gondorians in terms of quality of their respective soldiers.


Also, aren't Gondorian archers better than Roman ones? (i.e., the make of their bows)


Yes, Gondorians use bows modeled after elven archers, and even from the top of a massive fortress they couldn't shoot close to the seige weapons, that launched something over the first wall into the second layer
from
EE

Anteros
2007-12-17, 04:49 PM
You see, the thing is, they don't need a lot of trolls, even though there are (I would say hundreds of trolls, is a probable number). In the confined city streets the trolls will wreak absolute havoc. Roman spears will not be all that effective, and the trolls will kills dozens of soldiers at a time, horribly demoralizing and likely routing the rest. They will be followed in by Easterlings, soldiers I would rate as being equal to Romans in combat capabilities, if not better, and the largest, meanest Orcs and Uruk-Hai Mordor has to offer up. I also believe that Gondorian soldiers are armored, equipped and trained at least as well as Roman soldiers are, so I don't think the Romans have any definite advantage over the Gondorians in terms of quality of their respective soldiers.


Also, aren't Gondorian archers better than Roman ones? (i.e., the make of their bows)

You are vastly overstating the effect that these trolls would have. They would be effective against the romans because their sheer size and strength would allow them to break lines...but killing dozens at a time? I don't imagine that each troll would kill more than a few romans before they are filled with arrows and spears...and yes, spears would kill them quite easily. If you can kill an elephant with a spear, I'm fairly sure it can kill a troll. The only way that trolls could kill dozens of romans each is if they acted as an organized strike force or something, which they simply do not do.

The Romans are not stupid, they see the trolls in the enemy army and know eventually that those trolls are going to come through the gate. I'm not sure why people keep assuming roman stupidity in order to plan these offensives, but I assure you, there would be counter measures at the gate.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 05:33 PM
You are vastly overstating the effect that these trolls would have. They would be effective against the romans because their sheer size and strength would allow them to break lines...but killing dozens at a time? I don't imagine that each troll would kill more than a few romans before they are filled with arrows and spears...and yes, spears would kill them quite easily. If you can kill an elephant with a spear, I'm fairly sure it can kill a troll. The only way that trolls could kill dozens of romans each is if they acted as an organized strike force or something, which they simply do not do.

The Romans are not stupid, they see the trolls in the enemy army and know eventually that those trolls are going to come through the gate. I'm not sure why people keep assuming roman stupidity in order to plan these offensives, but I assure you, there would be counter measures at the gate.

that reminds me in the LOTRS movie, why the hell didn't the men on the wall aim for the trolls? Who shoots a wooden tower with a normal arrow i ask you, what were they expecting to happen
from,
EE

Anteros
2007-12-17, 05:39 PM
that reminds me in the LOTRS movie, why the hell didn't the men on the wall aim for the trolls? Who shoots a wooden tower with a normal arrow i ask you, what were they expecting to happen
from,
EE

Actually in the 3rd movie there is a scene where Gandalf yells at them to stop shooting the towers and shoot the trolls. Might be in the extended version, I saw it on tv yesterday.

warty goblin
2007-12-17, 05:55 PM
You are vastly overstating the effect that these trolls would have. They would be effective against the romans because their sheer size and strength would allow them to break lines...but killing dozens at a time? I don't imagine that each troll would kill more than a few romans before they are filled with arrows and spears...and yes, spears would kill them quite easily. If you can kill an elephant with a spear, I'm fairly sure it can kill a troll. The only way that trolls could kill dozens of romans each is if they acted as an organized strike force or something, which they simply do not do.

The Romans are not stupid, they see the trolls in the enemy army and know eventually that those trolls are going to come through the gate. I'm not sure why people keep assuming roman stupidity in order to plan these offensives, but I assure you, there would be counter measures at the gate.

Well, there's only three references to trolls being hurt in LOTR to my knowledge, two of them show the trolls speciffically ignoring powerful hits from skilled warriors with non-magical weapons, but being injured by magical ones. The third reference is that Hurin, who kills trolls with a normal axe, until the blade melts off from their acidic blood. But no Roman legionary is as epically badass as Hurin. Trolls are described as having scales, so their skin is basically armor, and the Olag-Hai I believe actually wear armor as well. I'm not saying that they couldn't eventually kill the trolls, I'm saying it'll take a lot of focus, specialized weapons and time, all while the orcs are slipping into shattered lines and orcshanking people, and spearblades are melted whenever they manage to pierce a troll's hide. Arrows will have limited effect for the most part, and Romans aren't famed for their archery. Anyway, actually bringing archers into close combat like that is moronic to say the least. Either they will be in the front of the lines and mowed down by orcs, or they will be behind and shooting blind.

LordVader
2007-12-17, 06:03 PM
You are vastly overstating the effect that these trolls would have. They would be effective against the romans because their sheer size and strength would allow them to break lines...but killing dozens at a time? I don't imagine that each troll would kill more than a few romans before they are filled with arrows and spears...and yes, spears would kill them quite easily. If you can kill an elephant with a spear, I'm fairly sure it can kill a troll. The only way that trolls could kill dozens of romans each is if they acted as an organized strike force or something, which they simply do not do.

The Romans are not stupid, they see the trolls in the enemy army and know eventually that those trolls are going to come through the gate. I'm not sure why people keep assuming roman stupidity in order to plan these offensives, but I assure you, there would be counter measures at the gate.

Trolls wearing steel armor. With giant halberds and polearms. Against Romans with spears that don't have the reach of a normal troll, let alone one using a reach weapon of its own. It's going to be ugly, no matter what countermeasures you have in place. I would also point out that troll skin is far tougher than elephant hide, and that is not a valid comparison in the least, as a charging elephant is far easier to avoid and defeat than a troll armed with a massive weapon.

I think you're vastly overestimating the ability of Romans here.:smallwink:

Another thing to be considered is the Romans' inferior archery. No doubt Gondorian arrows caused thousands of casualties among the invading army. Without the reach and power of the Gondorian bows, many less invaders would have died, leaving that many more to storm the city and fight the Rohirrim when they arrived.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 06:27 PM
Actually in the 3rd movie there is a scene where Gandalf yells at them to stop shooting the towers and shoot the trolls. Might be in the extended version, I saw it on tv yesterday.

I know, but why do they need Gandalf to tell them is my point? Wouldn't shooting the trolls be a given?
from,
EE

Rowanomicon
2007-12-17, 06:44 PM
EE, many people are not too bright. I'm guessing these Gondorians are among them.

WG brings up a good point. The Roman's lack magical weapons and therefore are quite ineffective against Trolls.
Piercing elephant hide is not a good comparison to piercing Troll hide at all.
Find me a weapon that pierced rock; that would be a better comparison.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 07:09 PM
EE, many people are not too bright. I'm guessing these Gondorians are among them.

WG brings up a good point. The Roman's lack magical weapons and therefore are quite ineffective against Trolls.
Piercing elephant hide is not a good comparison to piercing Troll hide at all.
Find me a weapon that pierced rock; that would be a better comparison.

1. I know that all to well
2. In the books hte Oliphaunts were in fact armored, as their eyes is their only real weak point
from
EE

Anteros
2007-12-17, 08:08 PM
Well, there's only three references to trolls being hurt in LOTR to my knowledge, two of them show the trolls speciffically ignoring powerful hits from skilled warriors with non-magical weapons, but being injured by magical ones. The third reference is that Hurin, who kills trolls with a normal axe, until the blade melts off from their acidic blood. But no Roman legionary is as epically badass as Hurin. Trolls are described as having scales, so their skin is basically armor, and the Olag-Hai I believe actually wear armor as well. I'm not saying that they couldn't eventually kill the trolls, I'm saying it'll take a lot of focus, specialized weapons and time, all while the orcs are slipping into shattered lines and orcshanking people, and spearblades are melted whenever they manage to pierce a troll's hide. Arrows will have limited effect for the most part, and Romans aren't famed for their archery. Anyway, actually bringing archers into close combat like that is moronic to say the least. Either they will be in the front of the lines and mowed down by orcs, or they will be behind and shooting blind.


Well I was going by the movie rendition of Trolls because I don't have the books memorized, so I'm willing to concede the first point. As far as your second point about either putting archers into the front line or having them shoot blindly from behind....yes...it's a good thing that the Romans don't have, I dunno...any kind of...elevation to shoot at them from in their giant fricking hill fortress.

Since the book trolls are significantly tougher than the movie trolls though I'm willing to revise my earlier opinion that spears would take them down easily. However, there are at most what? A few hundred trolls? This is not going to turn the tide against the listed 30,000 or so Romans.
You're giving these trolls capabilities that they never had in the books as well. Granted the typical Gondorian may be a better archer than the typical roman...but I doubt they were all running around with magic arrows. How does this mesh with your thesis that non magic weapons don't stand up to trolls? Because they obviously can or Gondor would have lost in the first place. The romans will most likely not inflict as many archery casualties as the Gondorians, but they will still inflict them, and ultimately there are not enough trolls to turn the tide.

You also need to keep in mind that all the Romans have to do is maintain discipline until reinforcements arrive. If reinforcements were not coming I may have to give it to the orcish army, but since they are...there is no way in heck that the Romans are going to lose.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 08:18 PM
Well I was going by the movie rendition of Trolls because I don't have the books memorized, so I'm willing to concede the first point. As far as your second point about either putting archers into the front line or having them shoot blindly from behind....yes...it's a good thing that the Romans don't have, I dunno...any kind of...elevation to shoot at them from in their giant fricking hill fortress.

Since the book trolls are significantly tougher than the movie trolls though I'm willing to revise my earlier opinion that spears would take them down easily. However, there are at most what? A few hundred trolls? This is not going to turn the tide against the listed 30,000 or so Romans.
You're giving these trolls capabilities that they never had in the books as well. Granted the typical Gondorian may be a better archer than the typical roman...but I doubt they were all running around with magic arrows. How does this mesh with your thesis that non magic weapons don't stand up to trolls? Because they obviously can or Gondor would have lost in the first place. The romans will most likely not inflict as many archery casualties as the Gondorians, but they will still inflict them, and ultimately there are not enough trolls to turn the tide.

You also need to keep in mind that all the Romans have to do is maintain discipline until reinforcements arrive. If reinforcements were not coming I may have to give it to the orcish army, but since they are...there is no way in heck that the Romans are going to lose.

In WG defense i think the point he is making is that Troll aren't unhurtable, just really hard to bring down, and i think there were more like a few thousand trolls (most were killed when the sun came up but mountian and Olag-hai were nasty but not unkillabe)
also the Romans don't know about the extra men, moral
from,
EE

Anteros
2007-12-17, 08:27 PM
In WG defense i think the point he is making is that Troll aren't unhurtable, just really hard to bring down, and i think there were more like a few thousand trolls (most were killed when the sun came up but mountian and Olag-hai were nasty but not unkillabe)
also the Romans don't know about the extra men, moral
from,
EE

Why wouldn't the Romans know about the fact that reinforcements are coming? We've established that the major named characters are still there, so I see no reason why they wouldn't have knowledge of this, and also of the strengths and weaknesses of their enemies given that Gandalf is there.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 08:36 PM
Why wouldn't the Romans know about the fact that reinforcements are coming? We've established that the major named characters are still there, so I see no reason why they wouldn't have knowledge of this, and also of the strengths and weaknesses of their enemies given that Gandalf is there.

Gondor and Gandalf didn't think they would get there in time (remember another orc force was blocking the way, the men of rohan only got there through a secret route
from,
EE

SmartAlec
2007-12-17, 08:37 PM
Another thing to be considered is the Romans' inferior archery. No doubt Gondorian arrows caused thousands of casualties among the invading army. Without the reach and power of the Gondorian bows, many less invaders would have died, leaving that many more to storm the city and fight the Rohirrim when they arrived.

Were the Gondorian bows particularly good? I remember the Numenoreans had an excellent weapon called the steelbow, but I thought the technology to make them had been lost by the time of the Third Age and the armies of Gondor just used regular ol' yew bows.

LordVader
2007-12-17, 09:00 PM
Well I was going by the movie rendition of Trolls because I don't have the books memorized, so I'm willing to concede the first point. As far as your second point about either putting archers into the front line or having them shoot blindly from behind....yes...it's a good thing that the Romans don't have, I dunno...any kind of...elevation to shoot at them from in their giant fricking hill fortress.

Since the book trolls are significantly tougher than the movie trolls though I'm willing to revise my earlier opinion that spears would take them down easily. However, there are at most what? A few hundred trolls? This is not going to turn the tide against the listed 30,000 or so Romans.
You're giving these trolls capabilities that they never had in the books as well. Granted the typical Gondorian may be a better archer than the typical roman...but I doubt they were all running around with magic arrows. How does this mesh with your thesis that non magic weapons don't stand up to trolls? Because they obviously can or Gondor would have lost in the first place. The romans will most likely not inflict as many archery casualties as the Gondorians, but they will still inflict them, and ultimately there are not enough trolls to turn the tide.

You also need to keep in mind that all the Romans have to do is maintain discipline until reinforcements arrive. If reinforcements were not coming I may have to give it to the orcish army, but since they are...there is no way in heck that the Romans are going to lose.


Yes, all you have to do is stay calm in the face of thirty-foot-tall rampaging monsters...:smallwink:

I was referring to archery casualties in general. Thousands of Orcs that would have died to bigger, stronger Gondorian longbows will not to the smaller Roman ones, and will live to fight on. Gondorian bows are not really good, but they're much better than Roman ones.
And the trolls are more or less what the Uruk-hai Berserkers were at Helm's Deep. Get up the wall, cause a lot of casualties, and smash open a breach for your side to pour through.

Yet another thing to be considered is that the average Gondorian soldier seems to be, on a whole, better protected than the average Roman as a Gondorian is fully plate-armored.

warty goblin
2007-12-17, 09:56 PM
I also feel it necessary to point out that the Gondorian defenders did in fact lose the battle. They just had their asses bailed out before it became terminal- by the arrival of two additional armies. If both the Rohirrim and the army under Aragorn's command had not arrived, the battle for Minas Tirith would have been won by Sauron's forces.

The orcs did indeed take mass casualties during the direct assault phase, but far fewer than they might have due to the massive fear that the Nazgul and the rain of severed heads wrecked through them. Now the heads the Romans can deal with, that sort of thing is something they'd almost certainly have been exposed to, but not so much the Nazgul.

If the Romans can keep the First Circle from being breached, I'd think that they would do quite well, I'm just not sure how they're supposed to do that, although I'm totally open to suggestions. Once the gate has fallen however, they are in serious trouble, as were the Gondorian soldiers of the book. As I said earlier, I don't see the Romans doing particularly better or worse than the Gondorians they replace.

Anteros
2007-12-17, 09:59 PM
Yes, all you have to do is stay calm in the face of thirty-foot-tall rampaging monsters...:smallwink:

I was referring to archery casualties in general. Thousands of Orcs that would have died to bigger, stronger Gondorian longbows will not to the smaller Roman ones, and will live to fight on. Gondorian bows are not really good, but they're much better than Roman ones.
And the trolls are more or less what the Uruk-hai Berserkers were at Helm's Deep. Get up the wall, cause a lot of casualties, and smash open a breach for your side to pour through.

Yet another thing to be considered is that the average Gondorian soldier seems to be, on a whole, better protected than the average Roman as a Gondorian is fully plate-armored.

Well the thirty foot tall monsters are a nonfactor because they're ya'know...outside. Also the fortress walls are pretty much indestructable in the books so no smashing breaches. Lastly, I can see how the archery skill difference can make a difference as far as targetting something like a troll. But when one is shooting into a large mass of creatures from a wall it's virtually impossible to miss. Thus there may be some change in the number of orcish casualties, but given a similar number or archers to what Gondor had, they would inflict similar casualties on the orcs.

warty goblin
2007-12-17, 10:04 PM
Well the thirty foot tall monsters are a nonfactor because they're ya'know...outside. Also the fortress walls are pretty much indestructable in the books so no smashing breaches. Lastly, I can see how the archery skill difference can make a difference as far as targetting something like a troll. But when one is shooting into a large mass of creatures from a wall it's virtually impossible to miss. Thus there may be some change in the number of orcish casualties, but given a similar number or archers to what Gondor had, they would inflict similar casualties on the orcs.

Agreed on the 30 foot tall monsters being outside, but not on the archery casualty thing.

The Gondorians have more powerful bows than the Romans, thus they can start scoring hits from farther away. We know that the assault begins from outside of Gondorian bowshot, and the orcs only start taking loses once they get in range. Roman max range is going to be a lot shorter than Gondorian max range, meaning that they will have less time to actually shoot orcs before they reach the walls. Longer time exposed to the same rate of fire = more losses caused by the Gondorians than the Romans.

Anteros
2007-12-17, 11:03 PM
Agreed on the 30 foot tall monsters being outside, but not on the archery casualty thing.

The Gondorians have more powerful bows than the Romans, thus they can start scoring hits from farther away. We know that the assault begins from outside of Gondorian bowshot, and the orcs only start taking loses once they get in range. Roman max range is going to be a lot shorter than Gondorian max range, meaning that they will have less time to actually shoot orcs before they reach the walls. Longer time exposed to the same rate of fire = more losses caused by the Gondorians than the Romans.

I'll give you this, but even if we say that Gondorian bows shoot 100 yards farther than Roman ones,(which I believe is being very generous, but I'm sure someone else can factor the difference better than I.) given the rate at which the orcs cover ground, the actual difference is going to be negligable since the orcs arent really shown making assaults and retreating for later assaults. In the case of a prolonged seige this may be a deciding factor but I don't believe this battle lasts long enough for this to be a decider.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 11:11 PM
I'll give you this, but even if we say that Gondorian bows shoot 100 yards farther than Roman ones,(which I believe is being very generous, but I'm sure someone else can factor the difference better than I.) given the rate at which the orcs cover ground, the actual difference is going to be negligable since the orcs arent really shown making assaults and retreating for later assaults. In the case of a prolonged seige this may be a deciding factor but I don't believe this battle lasts long enough for this to be a decider.

remember the field battle? If there were a few thousand more orcs, could very well be a wipe out
from,
EE

warty goblin
2007-12-17, 11:13 PM
Another point to do with the shorter range of Roman bows is that, assuming the attackers know this, they can push their siege engines closer, allowing a more accurate bombardment of the city, and perhaps even the walltop. Sure the wall is indestructable, but the men on it are not.

Anteros
2007-12-17, 11:47 PM
Another point to do with the shorter range of Roman bows is that, assuming the attackers know this, they can push their siege engines closer, allowing a more accurate bombardment of the city, and perhaps even the walltop. Sure the wall is indestructable, but the men on it are not.

In real seige warfare you leave the majority of your soldiers inside until the enemy starts to advance, you don't just stand on the wall like morons.
And my other point EE was that although there would be a casualty difference, it wouldn't be in the thousands.

Aside from this you're forgetting the extremely important point that whether the Romans know it or not, they only have to hold on until reinforcements arrive. Thus the number of casualties that they deal to their enemy is in large part irrelevant. Regardless how many orcs die outside of the walls, there are so many that once the gate is breached they will be coming in at around the same rate that they did against the Gondorians. Thus, although the archery difference is notable...the Romans are not going to be the ones finishing the enemy army, thus in a strange twist...the number of casualties the Romans inflict is not nearly as important as their ability to survive.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 11:50 PM
what kind of bows did you roman's use anyways? I know the gondorians learned theirs from the elves and used super large long bows and were very good shots, so after a day and a night of shooting tehy could have killed thousands
from,
EE

Anteros
2007-12-18, 12:00 AM
what kind of bows did you roman's use anyways? I know the gondorians learned theirs from the elves and used super large long bows and were very good shots, so after a day and a night of shooting tehy could have killed thousands
from,
EE

Depending upon what period of history you are looking at, Romans used horse archers in their early days which would be poor suited for seige warfare. However, in later days they used something very similar to the modern day longbow.

Executor
2007-12-18, 10:05 AM
For most of their history, the Romans used composite recurve bows for their archer auxilaries, with bowman drawn from some of the more archery-inclined of their conquests. Persians, Egyptians, Syrians, etc. The Perso-Parthian recurve bow was powerful enough and I dare say that the Romans would do just find in the ranged killing department if they were sieged in Minas Tirith. Perhaps their composite bows wouldn't be as powerful as the Elven-based longbows of the Gondorrim, but oh well.

Blue Paladin
2007-12-18, 01:23 PM
Just to throw another monkey wrench into this, the number of Legionnaires is going to have to get lowered... Because we're replacing the Gondorian forces wholesale with Roman legions, you have to take into account the fact that a great number of Gondor's soldiers were lost in the first part of the battle: the loss of Rammas Echor.

If we're going by the movie version, it gets even worse as Denethor orders Faramir/Caesar on a suicide mission to re-take Osgiliath.

So you're down, let's say two legions from losing Osgiliath (one legion per fight). Add further morale loss as Julius Caesar falls victim to the Black Breath. Factor in the fact that your superbuddy Gandalf has said reinforcements (6000 cavalry, or about 3% the numbers of the opposing army) are on the way but won't arrive in time. If you're really sneaky about it, you've also overheard Denethor muttering/raving about a fleet of Corsairs sailing up the river to reinforce the Orcs, but he mutters/raves about flaming eyeballs all the time, so whatever.

So, let's recap. Down 40% before the fight begins. Your leader is a nutjob. Your field commander (whom you've followed for years) is terminal. Some old guy is in charge of the army, and he's told you that hey, a tiny force is on its way to help out, but they'll be too late to do anything. Oh, and it's raining the severed heads of your best friends from the First and Second Legions. Now start your siege.

Anteros
2007-12-18, 09:48 PM
Just to throw another monkey wrench into this, the number of Legionnaires is going to have to get lowered... Because we're replacing the Gondorian forces wholesale with Roman legions, you have to take into account the fact that a great number of Gondor's soldiers were lost in the first part of the battle: the loss of Rammas Echor.

If we're going by the movie version, it gets even worse as Denethor orders Faramir/Caesar on a suicide mission to re-take Osgiliath.

So you're down, let's say two legions from losing Osgiliath (one legion per fight). Add further morale loss as Julius Caesar falls victim to the Black Breath. Factor in the fact that your superbuddy Gandalf has said reinforcements (6000 cavalry, or about 3% the numbers of the opposing army) are on the way but won't arrive in time. If you're really sneaky about it, you've also overheard Denethor muttering/raving about a fleet of Corsairs sailing up the river to reinforce the Orcs, but he mutters/raves about flaming eyeballs all the time, so whatever.

So, let's recap. Down 40% before the fight begins. Your leader is a nutjob. Your field commander (whom you've followed for years) is terminal. Some old guy is in charge of the army, and he's told you that hey, a tiny force is on its way to help out, but they'll be too late to do anything. Oh, and it's raining the severed heads of your best friends from the First and Second Legions. Now start your siege.


Despite the fact that you are drastically overstating the Gondorian losses....Gondor did well enough in this situation, so I don't see why you'd naturally assume that the Romans would not be able to cope with it.
Also why the heck would we assume Caesar is overcome by the black breath? That makes no logical sense and you just made it up. Finally, I dont know when exactly we're placing the Romans at the castle, but it's extremely likely that if Caesar had been given the suicide mission by Denethor that there would have been an immediate coup.

EvilElitest
2007-12-18, 09:54 PM
I just wish to point out a great Roman advantage, their leader, one of the greatest miltary minds in history is working with, not against Gandalf. So that really has to count for something
from,
EE

warty goblin
2007-12-18, 11:09 PM
Despite the fact that you are drastically overstating the Gondorian losses....Gondor did well enough in this situation, so I don't see why you'd naturally assume that the Romans would not be able to cope with it.
Also why the heck would we assume Caesar is overcome by the black breath? That makes no logical sense and you just made it up. Finally, I dont know when exactly we're placing the Romans at the castle, but it's extremely likely that if Caesar had been given the suicide mission by Denethor that there would have been an immediate coup.

And I just feel the need to point out that the Gondorian defenders got totally taken apart by first army, let alone the other two Sauron had in reserve. If losing a major portion of one's fortifications in a day and having your moral lowered into the earth's core is "doing OK", I'd hate to see "doing badly".

I stand by my earlier conclusion, there's no reason the Romans would do better or worse than the Gondorians.

Anteros
2007-12-19, 02:05 AM
And I just feel the need to point out that the Gondorian defenders got totally taken apart by first army, let alone the other two Sauron had in reserve. If losing a major portion of one's fortifications in a day and having your moral lowered into the earth's core is "doing OK", I'd hate to see "doing badly".

I stand by my earlier conclusion, there's no reason the Romans would do better or worse than the Gondorians.

Well the question at hand is would the Romans win or not. in this case not doing any worse than the Gondorians would constitute winning.

kentma57
2007-12-19, 09:21 AM
This is an interseting thread...

I think the Romans would do better or at least survive...
1-the romans are very organized
2-they have Caesar, who is briliant
3-the walls are very tall and industructable, they just need to hold the gate. (if they new the arm was comeing they would have build Roman defences outside the fortress to protect the gate)
4-there would have been no suicde attack and Caesar might have pulled back his men from the outer city(forgot the name).
5-the Romans are more likely to belive Gandalf that the reinforcements are going to come(their leader is not insane). So they will have better morral.
6-Gandalf
7-Roman tactics

there are some down sides...
1-worse bows.
2-may or may not know the lay of the land.
3-little experience with trolls.
4-nazgule(spelling?)
5-worse armour (I am not sure on this and they do have formation fighting to acount for)

Did I miss anything?

EDIT: Why are the gates toeach of the rings not at least as strong (if not stronger) as the main gate to the city, and they should be located in corridors with sharp turns (or that are narrow) to make it hard to operate seige equipment in them. (ex: battering ram)

GolemsVoice
2007-12-19, 10:10 AM
Remember that, in this version, there is no Dnetor. Ceasar is the supreme commander of all gondorian forces, and he is surely intelligent enough not to send his men into some suicide missions for his own good. Not if he isn't sure he can still win the war, which he can't, in this case.
Also, one could argue that, under Ceasar, there would have been more defenses. Judging by the movie, Osgiliath was already pretty well defended, but if you could build additional traps, and lay more abushes, the Romans, or, rather their auxiliaries, could be a real pain for the slow-moving orcish army.

EvilElitest
2007-12-19, 10:34 AM
EDIT: Why are the gates toeach of the rings not at least as strong (if not stronger) as the main gate to the city, and they should be located in corridors with sharp turns (or that are narrow) to make it hard to operate seige equipment in them. (ex: battering ram)

Ummmm, they didn't pay the builder the last contract so he only finished the walls?
from,
EE

Blue Paladin
2007-12-19, 01:13 PM
Ah, I see. I was equating Caesar with Faramir, as the commander of the military forces, hence my assertion that the loss of Faramir at Osgiliath would be paralleled by the loss of Caesar. I was not equating Caesar with Denethor because, come on. It's Caesar. If Caesar was named Steward he would have taken full control of the true throne without batting an eye. I also see no reason Caesar's brain would be any less broken by the Palantir. In either case, Caesar is removed from the equation.

re: GolemsVoice. Osgiliath was only recently won back from Mordor. It was under Gondor's control for about nine months, from June 3018 to March 3019. During that time, it was reinforced by both Faramir's order and Denethor's.

re: Kentma. Nice list. On #3, only one wall is unbreakable: the outermost one. I am also curious what kind of defenses can be built in a day (with the enemy not fifteen miles down the road) that would actually help at the gate. This is a better gate than any Roman could imagine, and it required magic to break, even with the huge battering ram of Grond. On #4, there is no suicide attack in the book, so that's not really an issue either way; in the book, Faramir fell in the loss of Osgiliath. Losses to the army pretty much the same in both cases: extreme. On #5, Gandalf told them reinforcements were going to arrive too late. And I think Romans would be less inclined to trust a random mystic heathen, no matter how cool his horse is. Especially compared to Gondorians who have built a healthy respect (Denethor notwithstanding) for Mithrandir over the centuries. On #6, Gandalf is Gandalf, i.e. a constant. Why would he perform better for Romans than for Gondorians?

re: Anteros. You really think I'm overstating Gondor's losses? I figured I was underestimating. Think about it. You are in a state of war with another country. Would not the bulk of your army be on the border between you and the enemy? You know, that one part where they actually have forces gathered on the other side of the river? Osgiliath was the border, and they got slaughtered there. I thought I was being nice when I posited Minas Tirith still having 60% of the army available.

Dervag
2007-12-19, 01:15 PM
You see, the thing is, they don't need a lot of trolls, even though there are (I would say hundreds of trolls, is a probable number). In the confined city streets the trolls will wreak absolute havoc. Roman spears will not be all that effective, and the trolls will kills dozens of soldiers at a time, horribly demoralizing and likely routing the rest.If the orcs could do that to the Romans, they'd have done it to the Gondorians. This is important- the Gondorians had no reliable method for killing a troll that would be any more effective than what the Romans could do. The fact that the entire Gondorian army wasn't wiped out by rampaging trolls indicates that the trolls aren't as effective in close combat as you might think. I don't know why, but they aren't.


They will be followed in by Easterlings, soldiers I would rate as being equal to Romans in combat capabilities, if not better,Nobody actually outdid the Romans in combat capability on real earth, so I'm suspicious of the claim that the Easterlings are better than them. I'm also suspicious of the claim that they are even as good; otherwise they would have been too tough and numerous for Sauron to enlist by overpowering them.


I also believe that Gondorian soldiers are armored, equipped and trained at least as well as Roman soldiers are, so I don't think the Romans have any definite advantage over the Gondorians in terms of quality of their respective soldiers.In the movies the Gondorians do not display any great talent in formation fighting, nor do they do so in the book. They may well be individually able and well equipped, but their talents are not well suited to fighting pitched battles. Also, remember that Sauron only returned to power in the past several decades and that the Gondorian military tradition had time to fade for centuries before that. So they aren't going to have as strong and vital a set of institutional traditions as a force like the Romans, which had been fighting wars more or less continuously for the past two or three centuries by Caesar's time.


Also, aren't Gondorian archers better than Roman ones? (i.e., the make of their bows)If they are, then you may be assured the Romans will try to enlist some Gondorian archers as auxilia.


Well, there's only three references to trolls being hurt in LOTR to my knowledge, two of them show the trolls speciffically ignoring powerful hits from skilled warriors with non-magical weapons, but being injured by magical ones. The third reference is that Hurin, who kills trolls with a normal axe, until the blade melts off from their acidic blood. But no Roman legionary is as epically badass as Hurin.Except maybe Horatius Cocles.

But that aside, if trolls are so strong and unkillable, why didn't they rampage all over the Gondorians in the battle we see in the books? Clearly, either an army of Gondorians can kill the few trolls coming against them or there are so few trolls that their nigh-invincibility doesn't effect the overall outcome of the battle. Remember, there weren't more than a few thousand defenders in the siege of Minas Tirith. If trolls were practically unkillable, then a few dozen of them should have made defense utterly impossible.


Gondor and Gandalf didn't think they would get there in time (remember another orc force was blocking the way, the men of rohan only got there through a secret route
from,
EESo what?

The Gondorians had the exact same disadvantage, and still managed to hold out long enough to win the battle. This is the key thing to remember. All the Romans need to do is hold out as well as the Gondorians. And they are the equals of the Gondorians in virtually every way except archery, and they have much greater numbers than the 'historical' Minas Tirith garrison according to the original post. Given the number of Romans, the fact that their archery isn't good is almost irrelevant.


Just to throw another monkey wrench into this, the number of Legionnaires is going to have to get lowered... Because we're replacing the Gondorian forces wholesale with Roman legions, you have to take into account the fact that a great number of Gondor's soldiers were lost in the first part of the battle: the loss of Rammas Echor.

If we're going by the movie version, it gets even worse as Denethor orders Faramir/Caesar on a suicide mission to re-take Osgiliath.

So you're down, let's say two legions from losing Osgiliath (one legion per fight). Add further morale loss as Julius Caesar falls victim to the Black Breath. Factor in the fact that your superbuddy Gandalf has said reinforcements (6000 cavalry, or about 3% the numbers of the opposing army) are on the way but won't arrive in time. If you're really sneaky about it, you've also overheard Denethor muttering/raving about a fleet of Corsairs sailing up the river to reinforce the Orcs, but he mutters/raves about flaming eyeballs all the time, so whatever.

So, let's recap. Down 40% before the fight begins. Your leader is a nutjob. Your field commander (whom you've followed for years) is terminal. Some old guy is in charge of the army, and he's told you that hey, a tiny force is on its way to help out, but they'll be too late to do anything. Oh, and it's raining the severed heads of your best friends from the First and Second Legions. Now start your siege.OK. The Romans now have all the same disadvantages as the Gondorians did. I still don't see why it would be any harder for them to hold out long enough.


Also why the heck would we assume Caesar is overcome by the black breath? That makes no logical sense and you just made it up. Finally, I dont know when exactly we're placing the Romans at the castle, but it's extremely likely that if Caesar had been given the suicide mission by Denethor that there would have been an immediate coup.The reasoning is that Caesar is replacing Faramir. Faramir did fall prey to the Black Breath, so it's reasonable to say that Caesar does too.

It's true though that Caesar would tend to refuse a stupid order. On the other hand... I regard the books as more canonical than the movies, and I'm not sure what the 'suicide attack' was like in the books because I can't remember.

Dallas-Dakota
2007-12-19, 01:31 PM
in the book, Faramir fell in the loss of Osgiliath.


He did not, he was just knokked out, almost dead, Denethor and the citizens and army of Gondor thought he was dead, he was NOT.
This was later on stated in the book :

And while the king was gone, Faramir and Eowyn ruled the lands until he returned.

Selrahc
2007-12-19, 01:32 PM
Nobody actually outdid the Romans in combat capability on real earth

Sure they did! Just none of them were around at the time the Romans ascended to power. The Spartans for instance. Or some of the better mercenary armies in the middle ages. Or any elite organization in modern armies.

The easterlings probably have slightly better gear... Steel weapons and armour rather than iron, pikes and crossbows. Their tech is on a par with medieval europe, which had some better stuff than they did in Rome.

I doubt the Easterlings were better than the Romans though.

warty goblin
2007-12-19, 01:46 PM
Sure they did! Just none of them were around at the time the Romans ascended to power. The Spartans for instance. Or some of the better mercenary armies in the middle ages. Or any elite organization in modern armies.

The easterlings probably have slightly better gear... Steel weapons and armour rather than iron, pikes and crossbows. Their tech is on a par with medieval europe, which had some better stuff than they did in Rome.

I doubt the Easterlings were better than the Romans though.

Thank you. That was exactly what I was going to say.

On the troll thing, I'm not implying that they can't be killed, but against an army that is so completely reliant on formation fighting, by the time the trolls are dropped the Roman formation will resemble the aftermath of a bull in a china shop, and be mopped up by the orcs. Gondorians, as you say, seem to be more individualistic fighters, which in general is a bad thing, but against trolls would be helpful since they won't be so completely screwed over when their formation is shattered. Its not a huge difference, but it is there.

I'm not saying I think the Romans would lose harder than the Gondorians, or do better. I think honestly they'd do about the same, that is, lose hard until reinforcements showed up.

XtheYeti
2007-12-19, 01:55 PM
I have a question, supose that we were to replace the romans with spartens...and give them steel, what happens.

multilis
2007-12-19, 03:07 PM
I'm not implying that they can't be killed, but against an army that is so completely reliant on formation fighting, by the time the trolls are dropped the Roman formation
Greek Phalanx needed formation, 3 rows of spears would beat roman formation but spears were too long to be useful against roman sword if the formation got broken up and result was close combat.

In normal quick seige warfare a rule of thumb was need 10x the number to overcome a good castle defense.

Gondor may have held off the foes IF it had defenders on the walls, the defenders were scared off by Nazgul. Sauron likely didn't allow his flying terrors to cross the river till war time because over time humans could build up resistance to the shock terror value of the Nazgul.

IMO the deciding factor would be whether the change to romans/caeser somehow overcomes the deadly fear of Nazgul.

Executor
2007-12-19, 05:35 PM
To clear up a few misconceptions:

Yes, the Romans did have steel. Perhaps not pattern-welded or Damascus steel like Medieval troops, but they did have it in varying degrees of Carbon content.

Roman troops could fight as individuals, but they usually did better in formation against the sort of foes they faced alot of, barbarians like the Gauls and Britons. When they did fight as individuals, they could do well. The Greek survivors of the Battle of Pydna between Macedon and Rome described with terror the horrible wounds that the gladius caused amongst the Greek formation after Roman legionaries got inside the phalanxes. This indicates that they could use it proficiently in both functions. And yes, the gladius was equally well suited to cut and thrust. It's just that the thrust allowed the Roman to stay shielded behind his scutum and wouldn't disrupt the formation.

I think that the Roman pilum will cause problems for the trolls. What a pilum is is a heavy javelin, used by the Roman legions, 2 metres in length with a 60cm iron shank at the end. This tip, designed to pierce armour, was made to bend when it hits something. This makes it hard to extract from shields, armour or flesh and useless for the enemy to use. At battles against the Britons, pila would often pin two barbarian warriors together after it pierced their overlapping shields in the shieldwall. Trolls would not like pilum.

Besides, I thought I made it clear in the first page of this VS that we were going by the book version of the battle, in which no orc or troll actually enters the city except on the walls. The Witch-king comes through the gates, and the Romans would flee before him just like the Gondorrim, Gandalf and the WK have a confrontation and then Rohan arrives.

Blue Paladin
2007-12-19, 06:25 PM
re: dallas-dakota. I said fell. Not killed. Faramir isn't killed. It's a very important point that Aragorn heals Faramir, because it proves that he is in fact the King returned to Arnor. I know you don't know me personally, but trust me. It's not a point that I of all people would miss.


Besides, I thought I made it clear in the first page of this VS that we were going by the book version of the battle, in which no orc or troll actually enters the city except on the walls. The Witch-king comes through the gates, and the Romans would flee before him just like the Gondorrim, Gandalf and the WK have a confrontation and then Rohan arrives.This pre-supposes that the Romans last the same amount of time as the Gondorian forces. If Romans > Gondorians, this is an obvious conclusion. If Romans < Gondorians, this is not at all assured.

Going by the wording you have presented above, a farmer and his three-legged cat can hold off Mordor, because "no orc or troll actually enters the city except on the walls. The Witch-king comes through the gates, and the" farmer and his cat "would flee before him just like the Gondor[ians], Gandalf and the WK have a confrontation and then Rohan arrives." I hope this illustrates (in an extreme manner) the flaw in that set-up. You are accepting as fact something that is not yet proven: that the Romans/three-legged cat can hold against the siege as well as Gondor's forces.

Yami
2007-12-19, 06:37 PM
I have a question, supose that we were to replace the romans with spartens...and give them steel, what happens.

My guess? Thier slaves vie for a better deal and betray them. I mean sure the spartans wouldn't mind standing in the face of certain defeat, but I doubt you could say the same for the bulk of thier forces. Then theres the fact they are also heavily reliant on formation fighting. You could use every arguement brought against the romans against the spartans.

They'd be great fighting the orcs in the streets, but then so too would the romans, and the romans come with more options.

Like placing ballistae in the streets for when the gates are breached.

Dervag
2007-12-19, 11:48 PM
On the troll thing, I'm not implying that they can't be killed, but against an army that is so completely reliant on formation fighting, by the time the trolls are dropped the Roman formation will resemble the aftermath of a bull in a china shop, and be mopped up by the orcs.The Romans were individually competent fighters as long as they had space to fight- just breaking their formation wasn't enough to break their army. Especially not as long as they had a reserve, which a commander like Caesar would maintain routinely.


I'm not saying I think the Romans would lose harder than the Gondorians, or do better. I think honestly they'd do about the same, that is, lose hard until reinforcements showed up.Well, according to the original post there are way more Romans than there were Gondorians in the 'historical' battle, which means that the Romans are going to do a lot better than the Gondorians did. But that may just be a slip.


I have a question, supose that we were to replace the romans with spartens...and give them steel, what happens.The Spartans are screwed.

They're tough, but they are pure phalanx fighters. Phalanx tactics work fairly well on a flat open field, but not very well inside cities. The entire reason phalanxes evolved was that the Greeks fought most of their city on city battles on the flat farmland areas outside their cities. Because good farmland was so scarce in Greece, a city that had its farms burned and its orchards chopped down would be in very deep trouble. And because siege technology was still primitive, it was very difficult for the Greeks to force an enemy out of a walled city in the early classical period. So they usually just marched their army over to the enemy city, camped outside, and threatened to burn all the crops if they didn't get what they wanted. The defenders couldn't afford to let the enemy lay siege to their city for long, so they had to march out and contest the farmland with the enemy.

Hence the evolution of heavy infantry tactics that work extremely well on a big flat plain with no obstacles, and badly everywhere else. The Spartans were really good at this kind of thing, but that wouldn't give them what they need to fight the orcs. The Spartans had no expertise at defending a fortress (for many decades, Sparta didn't even have walls because the Spartans figured on being able to beat all their enemies in the open).

If the orcish army were small enough that the Spartans could march out of the gates, meet it on the Pelennor Fields, and destroy it in open battle, the Spartans would win. But if they're defending a fortress they're likely to perform worse than either the Romans or the Gondorians would. The Spartans are unfamiliar with the defensive.