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Thinker
2007-12-17, 02:14 PM
So who would win in an even matchup of Klingons vs Uruk Hai? The scenario:

The klingons and uruk-hai each have a company of 750 soldiers. There are no brilliant tacticians in either group and they use standard tactics known to their race. Both groups are after the same objective, found in the middle of a dangerous, unfamiliar jungle and they know of the other's presence. They start at opposite sides of the jungle. The klingons are restricted by Q to only using technology levels on par with those the Uruk-Hai are familiar with. Each company can be assumed to have enough food and water to last the entire time and neither side will get lost in the jungle. Finally, both sides have melee weapons unique to their race, but no ranged weapons, as well as having standard armor and both companies' soldiers are fully equipped. Neither side gets reinforcements and neither breeds. They have static starting numbers and can only decline in population.

Given the above, who wins?

YPU
2007-12-17, 02:18 PM
i am prety sure uruks would be capable of reproducing much faster.

Darken Rahl
2007-12-17, 02:21 PM
Klingons would destroy the Uruks.

Thinker
2007-12-17, 02:22 PM
i am prety sure uruks would be capable of reproducing much faster.

They have static starting numbers, no reproduction. I'll update the OP.


Klingons would destroy the Uruks.
Why?

TheLogman
2007-12-17, 02:55 PM
Kllingons are masters of close combat, and their weapons are impressive and destructive, even in a world where you can shoot people with lasers. Their swords are fast, powerful, and dual bladed, for twice the carnage.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 03:01 PM
Kllingons are masters of close combat, and their weapons are impressive and destructive, even in a world where you can shoot people with lasers. Their swords are fast, powerful, and dual bladed, for twice the carnage.

I don't watch startrech, but could i see one of those blades? Would it work in real life?
from
EE

WalkingTarget
2007-12-17, 03:06 PM
I don't watch startrech, but could i see one of those blades? Would it work in real life?
from
EE

Behold, the Bat'leth (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Bat%27leth).

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/4/4a/Batleth%2C_Barge_of_the_dead.jpg/180px-Batleth%2C_Barge_of_the_dead.jpg

As for if it's a reasonable weapon in real life, I somehow doubt it but I'm no weapons expert.

Arang
2007-12-17, 03:13 PM
How would you ever use that? Your arms are too far towards the ends to use it efficiently, it's too heavy to use in one hand and it's too big to use it up close. Maybe if you threw it at them.

Have the Klingons at least got mind rays or super strength or something to make up for their retarded weapon design?

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 03:16 PM
Behold, the Bat'leth (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Bat%27leth).

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/4/4a/Batleth%2C_Barge_of_the_dead.jpg/180px-Batleth%2C_Barge_of_the_dead.jpg

As for if it's a reasonable weapon in real life, I somehow doubt it but I'm no weapons expert.

thanks for hte image


In the name of all gods, how in the hell would one use that thing? If the handle was on the outside (aka, you wield it backwards) it could make sense,mut that thing would never worked. It doesn't make sense. Uruk-hai win, they hold up shields and let the klingons tear themselves apart
from,
EE

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-12-17, 03:20 PM
How would you ever use that? Your arms are too far towards the ends to use it efficiently, it's too heavy to use in one hand and it's too big to use it up close. Maybe if you threw it at them.

Have the Klingons at least got mind rays or super strength or something to make up for their retarded weapon design?
Actually, Klingons can use them in one hand. Its supposedly able to fit into the crook of the arm so you can put your whole body into the swing, etc.

Anyways, Klingons are above average in strength, but their main deal is their Constitution and having a lot of redundant systems. They have like several of everything. Also have dense bones, especially in their head, sort of like a pachycephalosaurus.

Personally I say Klingons because uruk-hai seem to be nothing more than pumped up humans with only minimal training. Klingons are trained from birth. Skill makes all the difference.

As for the weapon, I've seen it attempted to be used by those who know weapons and it doesn't seem too bad.

Thinker
2007-12-17, 03:31 PM
For more weapon reference, here are the klingon bladed weapons from the show: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Klingon_blade_weapons (there's a lot of them or else I'd just post pics).

The Uruk Hai primarily used this:
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/c/c6/Uruk-hai_sword.jpg

Bongos
2007-12-17, 03:33 PM
It's got to be Klingon's. They have developed a culture of warfare lasting many generation and have a long tradition to draw upon. They were successful enough to have a large Empire.

Uruk-hai while as savage and bloodthirsty as Klingons, are born from the mud to be slaves and servants. They would be lacking in the developed tactics and strategy that a military race such as the Klingons have. The Uruk Hai are dependent upon a master to command and control them.

In fact, in a fictional history of the Kilingons similar encounters with races like the Uruk Hai have occured. The Klingons are still around so they were probably successful.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 03:40 PM
Everyone says the Klingons are so good, but with a weapon that screams "Unessarly elaberate and totally useless" i just can't take them serously enough to imagine them winning, maybe if they used normal swords

Can somebody show me how such an obsense weapons would be used?

Also, the Uruk may be young, but they are rather effective
from,
EE

Mr. Mud
2007-12-17, 03:54 PM
Not a huge startrek fan, but that blade looks to be very heavy, because of the thickness of the blade, and the amount of carbon put into it so the "blade" will relatively balanced. Now the Uruk Kai have what looks to be a short sword, and aren't too heavy compared to the Klingon blade.


uruk-hai seem to be nothing more than pumped up humans with only minimal training. Klingons are trained from birth. Skill makes all the difference. 300, anybody? :smallamused:

Arang
2007-12-17, 03:54 PM
I will grant, Uruks are not very good as independent warriors, but then again, they don't have to be. Each warrior has a single purpose, he does it pretty well, and some of them are commanders. The commanders do know about tactics.

I'm not saying adaptability isn't an advantage, but the Uruks are presumably the best of the best when it comes to doing their one single thing. Assuming the Uruks will automatically go "RAAARGHGHRHAGH SMASH" is silly.

Darken Rahl
2007-12-17, 03:54 PM
They got their asses handed to them by weaker humans.

How effective can they be?

DarthArminius
2007-12-17, 03:57 PM
Everyone says the Klingons are so good, but with a weapon that screams "Unessarly elaberate and totally useless" i just can't take them serously enough to imagine them winning, maybe if they used normal swords

Can somebody show me how such an obsense weapons would be used?

Also, the Uruk may be young, but they are rather effective
from,
EE

A swordshop owner I asked said a bat'leth might be used in jungle warfare.

I don't know about that.

But Klingons also have katanas and daggers.

Seraph
2007-12-17, 03:58 PM
Everyone says the Klingons are so good, but with a weapon that screams "Unessarly elaberate and totally useless" i just can't take them serously enough to imagine them winning, maybe if they used normal swords

Can somebody show me how such an obsense weapons would be used?

Also, the Uruk may be young, but they are rather effective
from,
EE

simple.

1) opponent swings
2) Klingon catches blade in center of bat'leth
3) at this point, the Klingon has a few options. they can shove forward, knocking the opponent off-balance, they can make a Diagonal slash to get the weapon out of the way and follow it with an immediate stab with the end, or a few different things. a bat'leth has more control, seeing as where the handles are placed.

Arang
2007-12-17, 04:04 PM
simple.

1) opponent swings
2) Klingon catches blade in center of bat'leth
3) at this point, the Klingon has a few options. they can shove forward, knocking the opponent off-balance, they can make a Diagonal slash to get the weapon out of the way and follow it with an immediate stab with the end, or a few different things. a bat'leth has more control, seeing as where the handles are placed.

Well, I can't imagine it would be very easy to chop through any sort of armour if you've already shoved someone back and you have to make an awkward kind of sideways chop instead of just stabbing like you could with a straight weapon. Additionally, an Uruk could just as easily stabbed or slammed with their shield, which would presumably be rotated in front of them if they were shoved off balance. Again, the range is too bad if you're holding it with both hands and an Uruk would probably be able to resist the shove if you were holding it with only one.

Mr. Mud
2007-12-17, 04:06 PM
A swordshop owner I asked said a bat'leth might be used in jungle warfare.

I don't know about that.

But Klingons also have katanas and daggers.

My Uncle has a forge in his garage, (don't ask why) and in the summer we occasionally make blades, but nothing... nothing like a bat'leth. That might require weeks to get properly weighted the way the klingons forged it. The bat'leth would probably be used in a thin jungle, but would be too bulky to carry around in a thick jungle. The Greatsword, katana or dagger seem more apporiate for a dense jungle... And so does a shotgun. :smallbiggrin:

GoC
2007-12-17, 04:09 PM
Well I've got the entire DS9 collection (and stuff from TNG, TOS and Voyager and all the movies) and I must say the Urak-Hai hands down!
The fabled klingon warriors routinely lose to most human officers (especialy captains). They're actualy not much stronger than an ordinary human and just as vulnerable to a good slash. Their "tactics" are very poor because they focus so much on honor. Klingon tactics combat consists either peering around their cover and shooting with their disrupters or (if the enemy is quite near) each klingon pairing off with one of the enemy and fighting with their bat'leth.
They were "successful" because of their definitely dishonorable cloaking technology, their mineral rich homeworld moons and the fact that they've been around longer. They are described several times (by their own allies!) as a "decadent" and "dieing" race.
In DS9 the klingons (once far stronger than the federation) are now considered weaker and only stay there because the federation turns a blind eye to their slave colonies.

Mr. "their weapons are impressive and destructive":
Oh please. They were slaughtered by the Jem'hadar and most Bat'leth combat takes so long that anyone not engaged could shoot pretty much everyone in the time it takes to finaly kill Kira.:smallannoyed:
In Startrek people's reflexes are so slow that if anyone installed a single automated, teleporting bullet-using defence turret aboard DS9 they'd never have to worry about being boarded again. Ever.

Most of the elements of Startrek are based on suspension of disbelief.

GoC
2007-12-17, 04:15 PM
a bat'leth has more control, seeing as where the handles are placed.

"more control"? If it weren't for their superior material technology it would be impossible to move the Bat'leth as is shown in DS9 or would simply twist in your hands. How ancient klingons supposedly managed I don't know.

Mr. Mud
2007-12-17, 04:16 PM
:smallsigh: As I said G, I'm not too big on Startrek. (Hell, I didn't even say that bat'leth combat was efficent) All I mean is, that it's a big lunky sword, with a big lunky Klingon.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 04:29 PM
simple.

1) opponent swings
2) Klingon catches blade in center of bat'leth
3) at this point, the Klingon has a few options. they can shove forward, knocking the opponent off-balance, they can make a Diagonal slash to get the weapon out of the way and follow it with an immediate stab with the end, or a few different things. a bat'leth has more control, seeing as where the handles are placed.

1. shield blocks. The weapon spiked look likes they would get caught
2. Giving Uruk time to swing down
3. And i see where hte blade is placed, gets stuck in the first uruk it kills, can't get out.
the kattans and and daggers are more threating
from,
EE

DarthArminius
2007-12-17, 04:36 PM
Klingon warriors are only shown to be weaker in the series because the main characters have an audience looking after them.

Klingons are routinely preached as being great warriors. Worf beat up dozens of Jem Hadar by himself.

GoC
2007-12-17, 04:47 PM
:smallsigh: As I said G, I'm not too big on Startrek. (Hell, I didn't even say that bat'leth combat was efficent) All I mean is, that it's a big lunky sword, with a big lunky Klingon.

Sorry, that wasn't aimed at you.

Armin: As did Sisko and pretty much all of the cast except Jake. There is a higher percentage of something vs. klingon victories than there are something vs. Jem'hadar.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 05:01 PM
can somebody show a pic of these things being used?
from,
EE

TheLogman
2007-12-17, 05:56 PM
I will do you one better, here (http://youtube.com/watch?v=O7cFeljgO3Y) is a real-life martial artist using one in a Kung-Fu form.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 06:22 PM
I will do you one better, here (http://youtube.com/watch?v=O7cFeljgO3Y) is a real-life martial artist using one in a Kung-Fu form.

Saw it
Klintons are screwed

All the uruks have to do is keep them in a tight area, and that weapon is worthless
from
EE

GoC
2007-12-17, 08:56 PM
Saw it
Klintons are screwed

All the uruks have to do is keep them in a tight area, and that weapon is worthless
from
EE

Bat'leth's were designed for 1v1 combat and are useless in a close fight with multiple oponents and allies.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-12-17, 09:11 PM
Btw, just to further mention, the bat-leth is really mainly a ceremonial weapon. They use perfectly normal swords and daggers just as often from what I can see.

Anyways, in Star Trek we keep beating them mainly because aside from the plot saying we do, humans are supposed to be the best of the best when it comes to unorthodoxy and imaginative strategies.

Also... we don't play fair. I remember a Voyager episode, Think Tank, where they had to figure out how to out think a group of people whose entire purpose in life was to come up with brilliant solutions and strategies. Another race involved was saying, 'How can you possibly do this?'

So as an example of how humans do things she took this special puzzle/game device thing and gave it to one of her crew mates. A puzzle no one had yet solved. The crew-mate then quickly did it. They asked how she did it and she said she scanned the device and found the solution by seeing how it worked.

'But you cheated!' they said.

Welcome to humanity :smallamused:

rankrath
2007-12-17, 09:32 PM
If I had to place a bet, it would go to the uriks. Ignoring plot armour worn by the opponents of both races, the klingons had a sense of honor and a code, and the uriks had no such code. As such, the uriks would cheat like bastards, giving them the advantage.

Lord_Asmodeus
2007-12-17, 09:32 PM
I'm going to have to throw my lot in with the klingons, my reasons are 3-fold

1. Because Klingons are an old warrior race with alot of experience in battle and are skilled in the use of their weapons, and they are trained from birth to fight in hand-to-hand combat.

2. because of this "the original gods who created the first Klingons were slain by their own creations, because they were 'more trouble than they were worth'"
(according to Klingon religious myth but still, thats just awesome"

3 "With fire and steel did the gods forge the Klingon heart. So fiercely did it beat, so loud was the sound, that the gods cried out, 'On this day we have brought forth the strongest heart in all the heavens. None can stand before it without trembling at its strength.' But then the Klingon heart weakened, its steady rhythm faltered and the gods said, 'Why do you weaken so? We have made you the strongest in all of creation.'

And the heart said... 'I am alone.'

And the gods knew that they had erred. So they went back to their forge and brought forth another heart.

But the second heart beat stronger than the first, and the first was jealous of its power. Fortunately, the second heart was tempered by wisdom.

'If we join together, no force can stop us.'

And when the two hearts began to beat together, they filled the heavens with a terrible sound. For the first time, the gods knew fear. They tried to flee, but it was too late. The Klingon hearts destroyed the gods who created them and turned the heavens to ashes. To this very day, no one can oppose the beating of two Klingon hearts."

thus proving that Klingon's are pure awesome incarnate, and therefore cannot be beaten :smallbiggrin:

(but seriously my main point would be numero uno, numero's dos and trece are just their myths but still, they sound pretty cool huh :smallcool:)

Serenity
2007-12-17, 09:35 PM
...which is somewhat undermined by the fact that the crewmate was an ex-Borg who still didn't fully understand her humanity.

(@ VT)

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 09:48 PM
At least the Klingon use other weapons that make sense, because if they always used that death trap i'd laugh myself to death

But in reality, do the Klingons wear armor? Because if not then they are in a lot of trouble
from,
EE

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-12-17, 09:57 PM
...which is somewhat undermined by the fact that the crewmate was an ex-Borg who still didn't fully understand her humanity.

(@ VT)
Well yeah, but some things are just ingrained in the human psyche. Its not like we don't defeat the Borg each time by 'cheating'.

warty goblin
2007-12-17, 10:13 PM
Uruks form phalanx. Unless the klingons have some shields and spears stowed somewhere they are in trouble- there's no way that they can break an uruk pike wall with those things. Even with ordinary swords its quite unlikely.

Also Uruks "You do not know pain, you do not know fear, you will taste man-flesh!"

Klingons "Today is a good day to die"

Given the above two statements, I feel the two sides can come to mutually acceptable terms quite easily.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 10:15 PM
Uruks form phalanx. Unless the klingons have some shields and spears stowed somewhere they are in trouble- there's no way that they can break an uruk pike wall with those things. Even with ordinary swords its quite unlikely.

Also Uruks "You do not know pain, you do not know fear, you will taste man-flesh!"

Klingons "Today is a good day to die"

Given the above two statements, I feel the two sides can come to mutually acceptable terms quite easily.

Today is a good day to not no pain, not not fear and taste man flesh. Lets get those gnomes bastards
from,
EE

Seraph
2007-12-17, 11:17 PM
But in reality, do the Klingons wear armor? Because if not then they are in a lot of trouble
from,
EE

They do wear armor, but it's not as necessary on account of A) their ribcage being more or less a honeycombed plate (as seen here (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:Klingon_anatomy_small.jpg)), and B) their biology has an incredible degree of organ redundancy; Whereas uruks keep fighting because they can't feel pain, Klingons keep fighting because they have enough internal backups that they can take wounds that would kill most creatures and just heal up later. (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Klingon#Physiology). It doesn't have it on that page anymore, but I'm reasonably sure that it's been implied Klingons were a genetically-engineered race of supersoldiers that killed their master-race.

Lord_Asmodeus
2007-12-17, 11:20 PM
But that doesn't make much sense because they are still derived from the DNA of the race that came before (and who's base dna makes up) pretty much all humanoid races in ST, unless of course they were made from the master races DNA (which would make alot of sense)

SilentNight
2007-12-17, 11:26 PM
[QUOTE=warty goblin;3672394]Uruks form phalanx. Unless the klingons have some shields and spears stowed somewhere they are in trouble- there's no way that they can break an uruk pike wall with those things. Even with ordinary swords its quite unlikely.

You fail to realize that they are in a forrest. Even a novice tactician would simply retreat to a densely forrested part and flank them after the phalanx broke up. Also a question for Thinker. You said that there were no brilliant strategists but were there heros like Lurtz or that Worf guy.

Kudos to Serenity, nice quote

warty goblin
2007-12-17, 11:27 PM
Today is a good day to not no pain, not not fear and taste man flesh. Lets get those gnomes bastards
from,
EE

Well, techically I suppose its Klingon flesh, but uruks can't be bothered with the nicities, unless they went to the Isengard Finishing School for Young Society Uruks, which teaches things like:

+ How to correctly butcher dinner. Any old orc can whip out a twisted blade of jagged black metal and hack its prey apart, but a Society Uruk knows which cuts are choice, how to serve to a warhost of any size, and never uses a twisted black jagged blade. No, a Society Uruk uses a handy meat cleaver, which produces a finer cut without the ripping and tearing that lets all the flavor out.

+ Dealing with Insubordination and Rebellious Thinking. When is it appropriate to decapiate an insubordinate member of a lesser species? How about merely beating up them up with an iron fist? At what exact point is it permissable to use the insubordinate as fodder for one's warg? Should you kill them first? All of these are questions that confront an Uruk in a Position of Responsibility on a nearly daily baises, and knowing how many bones can be broken without crossing that "invisible line" is often the difference between a successful leader and one who ends up as fodder for thier own warg.

+ Identityfing what species is being Dined Upon. Nothing is more humiliating than cleavering some random sapient apart and bellowing "We will taste Man-Flesh!", and then being informed that you in fact just killed a dwarf, and that dwarves are high in dangerous trans fats, and were thus removed from the "Acceptable Flesh to Taste List" after the "Gaseous Berserker Incident" of last year killed an entire platoon. You may need to met out some discipline to your unit, but far far better to simply avoid the situation by bellowing "We will not taste Dwarf Flesh! But we will still kill dwarves!" We here at the Isengard School teach young Uruks how to tell the difference between all manor of different possible food sources, ranging from Dwarves to Elves, Hobbits, Men, and even what orcs provide the most nutrition and promote good digestion.

warty goblin
2007-12-17, 11:29 PM
[QUOTE=warty goblin;3672394]Uruks form phalanx. Unless the klingons have some shields and spears stowed somewhere they are in trouble- there's no way that they can break an uruk pike wall with those things. Even with ordinary swords its quite unlikely.

You fail to realize that they are in a forrest. Even a novice tactician would simply retreat to a densely forrested part and flank them after the phalanx broke up. Also a question for Thinker. You said that there were no brilliant strategists but were there heros like Lurtz or that Worf guy.

Kudos to Serenity, nice quote

Uruks chop down trees, build fire, burn forest, then form phalanx.

SilentNight
2007-12-17, 11:31 PM
what constitutes an Uruk diet?

Thinker
2007-12-17, 11:39 PM
Also a question for Thinker. You said that there were no brilliant strategists but were there heros like Lurtz or that Worf guy.

Neither side gets any heroes. That would be against the spirit of the question.

I question how the Uruk would create a phalanx though.

EvilElitest
2007-12-17, 11:41 PM
what constitutes an Uruk diet?

non uruks who can't run fast enough
Though as WG said, Uruks have to be careful to eat the right things, other wise they get fat.

We will eat Sparitan flesh tonight
Sir the Sparitan flesh will make you die from teh hot air

We will not eat Spartian flesh tonight, we will order pizza instead


from,
EE

Wizzardman
2007-12-18, 12:25 AM
Silly people. Bat'leths are designed to be used by Klingons, for whom the extra weight is not a problem.

A demonstration [its a human weilding it, and its really geeky, but it demonstrates the basics of bat'leth combat--or at least training]:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjPMfzu_y5E

Honestly, I'd say Klingons win by being more organized. One on one, I'd say an Uruk and a Klingon are about equal in strength and resilience; however, Klingons operate under a highly organized feudal system, and have developed effective ground tactics over their centuries of warfare. If these are movie-Uruks, then Klingons would win easily--movie orcs never use tactics. Otherwise, its a toss-up.

Unfortunately, like Orcs, Klingon fighters tend to operate on a small groups basis; small groups are great for forests, but have some difficulty against shield walls. The bat'leth operates under a similar principle--its great for fighting individuals, is useful for disarming, and etc, but is absolutely horrible against shields and shield walls. The Klingon homeworld is mostly jungle, however, and they have spent the last several decades developing styles for fighting on board starships [narrow corridors], so they would find a way to use the terrain for their advantage. And yes, the ba'tleth is useful in jungle fighting--most of the moves you see require a lot of swinging, but the bat'leth is sharp enough to cut through most vegetation that gets in the way, and as it is normall used two-handed, styles involving its use are versatile enough to avoid frequent 'sticking' issues.

Additionally, yes, Klingons wear armor--generally some form of scale mail.

Edit: Here. Start at around minute 5, and you'll see how the Klingons generally used a bat'leth in the shows.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rApjT3iWU_E

Ganurath
2007-12-18, 01:50 AM
Bat'Leths are terrible weapons, better for ceremonial combat than an actual fight. If the Klingons rely on these overglorified chunks of steel, they're going to lose to the sword and shield. Since their only alternative is fighting with daggers, though, they're screwed.

Why Bat'Leths are bad:

1. It's a double weapon. It may seem fancy and neat, but it's no more difficult to follow than a regular one-hander. After all, when one end goes one way, the other end HAS to go the other. If it were two weapons being dual-wielded, that'd be a different matter.

2. The design is inefficient. A blade with a convex curve is notably keen. It stands to reason, then, that the Bat'Leth's concave curve makes the blade dull. This requires, when facing an armored opponent like the Uruk-Hai, that the wielder rely on the points. These puncturing points are designed with asthetics being more important than functionality. Add in the awkward grip, and you have a lousy weapon.

3. It's cumbersome. With all the holes and hooks, it's bound to get snagged on something. Given how few of these are in an exploitable form, this will most often work to the wielder's disadvantage.

Edit: Also, Klingons have the whole honor thing going on whereas Uruks favor group tactics. Klingons charging spears get skewered, Klingons charging sword get blocked by shields before getting slashed by an Uruk other than the one they attacked.

warty goblin
2007-12-18, 02:33 AM
A convex edge does not neccesarily make a blade act duller- look at the falcata, a forward curving blade that was so good at cutting things it lead the Romans to put iron rims on their shields, and was such an effective design it was used in one form or another since the Bronze Age (Egyption Kopesh) through WWI (Indian Kukri).

Turcano
2007-12-18, 02:44 AM
A convex edge does not neccesarily make a blade act duller- look at the falcata, a forward curving blade that was so good at cutting things it lead the Romans to put iron rims on their shields, and was such an effective design it was used in one form or another since the Bronze Age (Egyption Kopesh) through WWI (Indian Kukri).

That's concave, and there are still problems with the general unwieldiness of the weapon in question. A mek'leth (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Mek'leth) is probably a better choice for this situation.

Anteros
2007-12-18, 03:07 AM
Arent the Klingons really more used to fighting with advanced weaponry than swords and such? I'm not saying they arent proficient in mellee, but I doubt they are as proficient as the Uruks...I'd have to give this one to the Uruks.

Satyr
2007-12-18, 05:08 AM
The problem is that the Klingons degenerated fastly. They become more stupid and primitive per appearance.

The original, real klingons were inustrial, expansionist militarists who faught against the federation because of clashing interests.

During Next Generation and especially during DS9, they degenerated from industrious, mostly human sowjet militarists into Space Vikings. Their appearance and habits became more feral, they exchanged their tactical advanced "cloak, ambush, retreat" tactics for hand to hand boarding actions and were actively stupified so they couldn't think outside their narrow terms of honor.

The original klingdfoms would outsmart the uruksd, offer them a nice mercenary job and poison them or massacre wthem when they are asleep.
The obviously lobotomized DS9 Klingons would take their extremely stupid weapoins and charge the Uruks, just to be cut down and eaten.

And Bath'leths are terrible weapons. We humans, we have a long and glorious tradition to find new ways to kill and mutilate our neighbours. Therefore we developed thousands of weapons in all sizes, forms and funczions and tested their effectivity. If those weapons are effective, they are used on. If they are fatal to its user, it disappears. There are no known historical weapons that only resembles such a thing as a Bath'leth, and therefore we can assume that such a weapon would not be very effective - if it were, somewhere it would have been developed and used.
The uruks ues hacking bladees that resembles machetes. Not really the most elaborate weapon around, but always a popular choice, all over the globe.

GoC
2007-12-18, 12:08 PM
At least the Klingon use other weapons that make sense, because if they always used that death trap i'd laugh myself to death

But in reality, do the Klingons wear armor? Because if not then they are in a lot of trouble
from,
EE

Their clothes look like armor but I've never seen it actualy stop something (blade, disrupter or phaser).

Seraph: Huh?:smallconfused:
Most klingons die with a single sword to the chest.


Honestly, I'd say Klingons win by being more organized. One on one, I'd say an Uruk and a Klingon are about equal in strength and resilience; however, Klingons operate under a highly organized feudal system, and have developed effective ground tactics over their centuries of warfare
:smallconfused:
Are we talking about the same klingons?
Organized? Effective ground tactics?

Satyr: Hmm...
Good point. There are two different types of klingons.
I think the OP meant the DS9 ones though.

EvilElitest
2007-12-18, 12:11 PM
That's concave, and there are still problems with the general unwieldiness of the weapon in question. A mek'leth (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Mek'leth) is probably a better choice for this situation.

Ah, well that is less absurd, but does it have any advantages other than light weight (got nothing against armor)
from,
EE

DarthArminius
2007-12-18, 01:23 PM
How would katanas work against falcions?

Ganurath
2007-12-18, 01:40 PM
How would katanas work against falcions?Good question. Unfortunately, it's irrelevant, since every Klingon blade has a concave curve for that dull cut I mentioned, thin blades so that they don't have any weight behind them, and superfluous arcs and curves for unwieldy weight distribution. The Uruk cleaver, on the other hand, is a straight, solid blade with a lot of weight behind it to exploit the superior Uruk strength, with a spike coming out the top at the rear to give it more overhand momentum and providing an armor-piercing reverse swing. Add in the fact that Uruks have shields to block the Klingon weapons while the Uruks swing, and the only Klingons that will last more than a few seconds are the ones dual-wielding mek'leths, who will get overrun when having to fight multiple opponents at once (how dishonorable...)

DarthArminius
2007-12-18, 01:42 PM
I don't really understand all the klingon bashing. They clearly were the superior warriors compared to the interstellar Husnoc, that entered Klingon space during the klingon middle ages.

Ganurath
2007-12-18, 01:51 PM
I don't really understand all the klingon bashing. They clearly were the superior warriors compared to the interstellar Husnoc, that entered Klingon space during the klingon middle ages.I think you mean the Hur'q. They invaded Kronos, thrashed the Klingons until they managed to reverse engineer the Hur'q technology, then repelled them using the same technology. Even then, the Klingons lost a lot of lives and valuables to the invading outsiders, such as the Sword of Kah'less. In short, the Klingons only ever made themselves known due to abundant natural resources and exploitation of stolen tech. On a level playing field against similiar foes like the Uruks (who have notably superior gear) the Klingons get thrashed.

DarthArminius
2007-12-18, 01:57 PM
It was later discovered that the H'urq were an ancient race of insectoid scavengers, whose insectile physiology was based that of army ants and the armor of the samurai, that plundered much of the galaxy before the majority of their race were trapped in another dimension. With most of their fleet lost, the H'urq would eventually vanish but they did leave elite units of Kam'Jathae warriors in stasis, to awaken at a time to bring the H'urq civilization back to glory. They were defeated by the crew of the USS Typhon. (TNG game: Invasion

From the boldened descriptions it looks like the klingons had to battle against extremely strong human sized enemies. Ants CAN lift over ten to twenty times their own weight, can't they?

Ganurath
2007-12-18, 02:03 PM
From the boldened descriptions it looks like the klingons had to battle against extremely strong human sized enemies. Ants CAN lift over ten to twenty times their own weight, can't they?It's a moot point, since they were using beam weapons and warp drive. Of course, this is also assuming that the game you are referencing is canon to the Star Trek universe. In any case, the ability of Klingons generations dead to squish bugs has nothing on the ability of "modern" Klingons to throw down with Uruks.

Winterwind
2007-12-18, 02:31 PM
From the boldened descriptions it looks like the klingons had to battle against extremely strong human sized enemies. Ants CAN lift over ten to twenty times their own weight, can't they?Only because they are small. If humans were the size and weight of ants they could lift several times their weight as well. Scaling ants up (apart from yielding creatures which are not able to breathe) would not give you some incredibly super-strong beings.

Wizzardman
2007-12-18, 02:42 PM
:smallconfused:
Are we talking about the same klingons?
Organized? Effective ground tactics?


I don't know what Klingons you've been watching, but I seem to recall that they were very effective ground fighters in DS9--what with repeatedly slaughtering Federation ground troops during the short Federation vs Klingon war, and with being the only guys in the galaxy who actually stood a decent chance of blocking a Jem'Hadar ground assault.

Also, on the two different Klingon types:

The show Enterprise, for all its flaws, explained the differences between TOS Klingons and later Klingons as being caused by a retrovirus editing their genetic structure. Some of the Klingon High Command, being well known geniuses and all :smallwink: , decided it would be a great idea to contact the remaining genetically engineered humans, and try to hire them and use their knowledge of genetic engineering to advance their own warriors. Unfortunately, the genetically engineered humans had their own agenda, and the Klingon scientists screwed up, and next thing you know the entirety of Kronos had been infected with a virus that grafted a lot of excess genetically engineered human genes onto their DNA strands. Thus, the Klingons traded bony foreheads and a culture focused on feudal-style honorable single combat for subtlety, communism, and a lot less muscle [as they weren't much stronger than your standard human].

GoC
2007-12-18, 03:43 PM
I don't know what Klingons you've been watching, but I seem to recall that they were very effective ground fighters in DS9--what with repeatedly slaughtering Federation ground troops during the short Federation vs Klingon war,
"Slaughter"? Not even close.
They outnumbered the fed troops and I've never seen the klingons use advanced tactics in DS9 not any evidence of organization. Which episode are you getting this from? Remember the one when Bashir and Jake landed to assist a backwater colony under attack? Very organized...
Most combat is phaser vs. disruptor and even in hand-to-hand the federation troops managed to defeat countless klingons while unarmed (Kira for instance)!
And I stand by my statement that everyone in the Startrek universe has reflexes much slower than in reality.


and with being the only guys in the galaxy who actually stood a decent chance of blocking a Jem'Hadar ground assault.
Source?
If it's Sisko well he's been gravely mistaken in the past.

DarthArminius
2007-12-18, 03:48 PM
And I stand by my statement that everyone in the Startrek universe has reflexes much slower than in reality.

The problem with this is that this does not even make sense. Please assume that the characters in Star Trek assume that the place they are living in is the real world. Most likely things happen in the universe off-screen just as much as it does in real life. The only reason it doesn't on-screen is because the studios want the audience to be entertained.

Satyr
2007-12-18, 05:10 PM
I don't know what Klingons you've been watching, but I seem to recall that they were very effective ground fighters in DS9--what with repeatedly slaughtering Federation ground troops during the short Federation vs Klingon war, and with being the only guys in the galaxy who actually stood a decent chance of blocking a Jem'Hadar ground assault.

Winning agasinst the federation doesn't count- those are just as stupid as the klingons. Problem is, there is no continuity in Star Trek, and the show contradicts itself more often then I can remember. And, any interesting idea will be repeated and dumbed down until it turns out to be a ridiculous onesided stereotype. Worst examples are klingons and borg.

Ganurath
2007-12-18, 11:18 PM
The show Enterprise, for all its flaws, explained the differences between TOS Klingons and later Klingons as being caused by a retrovirus editing their genetic structure. Some of the Klingon High Command, being well known geniuses and all :smallwink: , decided it would be a great idea to contact the remaining genetically engineered humans, and try to hire them and use their knowledge of genetic engineering to advance their own warriors. Unfortunately, the genetically engineered humans had their own agenda, and the Klingon scientists screwed up, and next thing you know the entirety of Kronos had been infected with a virus that grafted a lot of excess genetically engineered human genes onto their DNA strands. Thus, the Klingons traded bony foreheads and a culture focused on feudal-style honorable single combat for subtlety, communism, and a lot less muscle [as they weren't much stronger than your standard human].So, Original Klingons are to DS9 Klingons what Uruks are to regular Orcs? Except, of course, that Uruk strength actually got better than both races due to hybridization.

EvilElitest
2007-12-18, 11:40 PM
How would katanas work against falcions?

Crappy, in every human way possible

Imagine it this way, a katana in real life is possible one of the sharpest sword in the world, but it is awful against any sort of metal armor (which rare in japan due to iron shortage)
A Europeon in full plate against a samurai in leather would win (I am aware of the knight vs. samurai article, but in that the samurai used other weapons) most likely because the weapon would break. Kattanas are really really really light and fast, but they can't cut through Uruk plate armor, and can't parry the massive cleavers (cleavers by the way, falcions are curved) that would just snap them in half
from
EE