On the "vs Sauron" threads.

[Ramos]

Please keep in mind the following:

a) Sauron is immortal. He survived the Creator dropping a continent on him and simply reformed. He survived the Bloodhound of the Gods tearing to pieces his physical form-he simply reformed. Being torn to peices, he only lost face-nothing more. Having a continent dropped on him by the Creator, he only lost the ability to assume a human form. NOTHING any human can do except destroying the One Ring can truly harm him. If he survived having a continent dropped on him, I doubt something as simple as a nuke can harm him.
b) Sauron can assume ANY form he so desires within the limit of his power with the exception of human (he lost that form forever when Numenor was dropped on his head). He may even assume spirit form to escape any kind of danger up to and including having the Creator drop a continent upon him-he only has to reform later. In spirit form he can move vast distances in a very short time-e.g. moving from the collapsing Numenor back to his castle or from Mirkwood to Mordor, both distances being several thousand miles.
c) Sauron's senses extend over vast distances-he can casually perceive things thousands of miles away from his person and physical barriers are not an issue. Even the magical disguises woven by powerful wizards (such as the elf lord whose name I forget that went into Mordor and was eaten by a werewolf) cannot hide things from him.
d) Sauron can see into the minds and souls of others, knowing their thoughts if they are in his presence or even through distant communication. The most powerful man of his age-Aragorn-could not completely cloak his mind and intentions once contacting the Dark Lord through the palantir while prepared for mental combat though he could direct what Sauron saw. However, this limited communication from a vast distance and for a short time required the entirety of Aragorn's strength-Aragorn was barely able to resist being dominated and was completely exhausted after the contact. From up close, Sauron could easily manipulate the Numenorian lords and caused Luthien-the daughter of a powerful elf king and the maia (demigodess) Melian-to faint in his presence even though she had withstood the presence of Morgoth, the Lord of Flame and Darkness and Sauron's superior.
e) Sauron was one of the greatest smiths of Arda. In addition to creating the One Ring and teaching ringlore to the elves, he created a great deal of magical weapons such as the Morgul blades, he knew how to create horrible beasts out of existent life-forms (something he learned from Morgoth) and he created fortresses greater and stronger than any others save those created by the Valar themselves.
f) In addition to his mental, shapechanging, sensory and smithing abilities, Sauron has a great deal of physical power. For example, the forms he assumes are considerably stronger than the original beings. When he turned into a werewolf, he was strong enough to give the Bloodhound of the Gods a run for his money while said Bloodhound had summarily dispatched the most powerful vampire and the second most powerful werewolf in middle-earth. Sauron lost in that fight because the Bloodhound was fated to die by a specific enemy.
g) The only weaknesses Sauron has are his overconfidence and the One Ring's vulnerability to destruction. The One Ring can only be destroyed by the same fires that created it-in Mount Doom. That's not only due to heat from the magma-the Ring of Power remained cool in Frodo's fire and burning wood and coal is 800+ degrees. Magma is usually less than 1500. It is the magical power of Mount Doom-specifically, its ability to diminish all other powers except its own-that destroyed the ring.
h) The more powerful an enemy, the greater his vulnerability to Sauron's and the Ring's corruption. Those sufficiently powerful-such as the maia Gandalf-would be corrupted into another Dark Lord. Those still powerful but significantly weaker than Sauron himself would become slaves to the ring's power. Only those that combine high spiritual resilience, small personal power and little desire for more personal power or those that are immortal and significantly stronger than Sauron are immune to the ring's corruption.


So, all in all, Sauron has:
1) Magical abilities that at least rival those of a powerful wizard.
2) Ability to create minor artifacts and items of power surpassing that of any mortal.
3) An immortality rivaling that of Cthulhu's
4) Corruptive presence that is, in corruption and control, the equivalent of what Cthulhu is in madness.
5) Ability to assume any form he so desires and strength that surpasses that of most non-deity beings.
6) Divine senses.

[Rowanomicon]

As long as you're comparing him to Cthulhu you should note that his fear aura is approaching Cthulhu's madness aura in strength.
I don't actually know if anyone has died of Sauron's fear, but I do know that it incapacitates even those powerful enough to take down gods.

EDIT: I forgot to say thank you... Thank You.

[EvilElitest]

Thank you so much, oh gods thank you so much. I haven't even bothered to correct it (if there are errors) , but thank you so much (starts crying from the joy)
from,
EE

[Eita]

*bookmarks the thread and makes a note to post link whenever a vs. Sauron thread comes up*

Thank you...

[Ditto]

:smallsigh:

We've done this. But thanks!

[EvilElitest]

*bookmarks the thread and makes a note to post link whenever a vs. Sauron thread comes up*

Thank you...

this will make thins so much easier


Just one correction i caught, after Sauron was destroyed for the first time, he lost his abilty to shape shift into anything other than his one form (the giant burning dude) and a spirit i think. Not sure

Anyways, thank you so much
from,
EE

[The_Snark]

Nicely thought out, and I'd like to add a couple points that are at least related...

First- His powers are not strictly defined. Magic in Middle-Earth is not quantified, spells don't have names and schools of magic. That does not mean that you can assume they don't have a means of blocking X spell that whatever other opponent is throwing at them. Magic involves changing the universe through force of will.

This does not work well for versus threads, because it's so vague. Tolkien's characters are not at all ideal for versus threads against characters from other stories.

Second- Sauron is the measuring stick by which other fantasy Dark Lords tend to be measured, as the prevalence of versus threads involving him shows. That doesn't mean he's more powerful than World-Consuming X from Setting Y, necessarily, but writing up all-powerful beings is simple. I could write a short story featuring an omnipotent being, but that doesn't make it compelling. There's almost a tendency on threads now to dismiss Sauron as being of relatively low power, because too many stories include beings that are literally infallible or limitless in power (I'm looking at you, Warhammer 40k universe!).

I'm not sure where I was going with this point, but hopefully I got something across. We'll settle for: You can invent a creature that eats worlds and their Dark Lords for breakfast, but that doesn't actually make it impressive.

[EvilElitest]

Snark, what i got from that was "Sauron was the first dark lord, so we shouldn't dismiss him just because his concept has been killed through many many many copies of him"
Is that what you ment?
from,
EE

[The_Snark]

Not really what I meant to say... Let's try to clarify. A villain's power does not necessarily correspond to how compelling the villain is...

... and given how many versus threads Sauron has shown up in, and on a wider scale how many spinoffs and how much interest the story he was in inspired, he does very, very well on the compelling part of things.

Which is a much more important part of a villain than raw power.

[Rowanomicon]

Also, if considering opening a Vs Sauron thread, one should note that the idea that taking The Ring (and not destroying it*) leads to serving Sauron has never been countered. So, yeah, if you want somebody to have a chance against Sauron you'd better figure out how to counter it, or argue that they could destroy it, or at least keep it locked away from everyone and never give into the temptation to using it themselves.

*Destroying it is shown to be impossible for even the purest, most humble member of a race notorious for humbleness and magic resistance.

EDIT: Snark, I agree.

[EvilElitest]

Ok snark, that makes sense
from,
EE

[GoC]

So, all in all, Sauron has:
1) Magical abilities that at least rival those of a powerful wizard.
2) Ability to create minor artifacts and items of power surpassing that of any mortal.
3) An immortality rivaling that of Cthulhu's
4) Corruptive presence that is, in corruption and control, the equivalent of what Cthulhu is in madness.
5) Ability to assume any form he so desires and strength that surpasses that of most non-deity beings.
6) Divine senses.

1) "Powerful wizard" in middle earth terms.
2) Any Middle Earth mortal.
3) Actualy he just has a Phylactery.
4) Sorry, don't know much about old squidface
5) Humanoids, animals and a spirit form. He can't become a Tarrasque or Balor. Tolkien "Deity"s are stupidly weak compared to D&D, Marvel comics or DC comics.
6) Essentialy a type of Prying Eyes. It could very well be blocked with a high will save or magical protection (this is unknown as there aren't any powerful mages in Middle Earth).


Also, if considering opening a Vs Sauron thread, one should note that the idea that taking The Ring (and not destroying it*) leads to serving Sauron has never been countered.
A high will save or Protection Against Evil would work.

[Haruki-kun]

ZOMG!!!! DOESN'T ANYONE GET IT???

SAURON IS CHUCK NORRIS!!!!!!

It's perfect!

[EvilElitest]

1) "Powerful wizard" in middle earth terms.
2) Any Middle Earth mortal.
3) Actualy he just has a Phylactery.
4) Sorry, don't know much about old squidface
5) Humanoids, animals and a spirit form. He can't become a Tarrasque or Balor. Tolkien "Deity"s are stupidly weak compared to D&D, Marvel comics or DC comics.
6) Essentialy a type of Prying Eyes. It could very well be blocked with a high will save or magical protection (this is unknown as there aren't any powerful mages in Middle Earth).


A high will save or Protection Against Evil would work.

1. God
2. Who are normally greater than most other mortals
3. Wow over simplfication if i ever saw one. Yeah, you've never read teh books have you?
4. Sauron after openly calling himself the lord of all evil surrendered to the greatest human kindom, was able to talk them into worshiping him as a god in very little time
5. Ummmmmmm, no. Valar and Mair can't die in any way, just lose their power. Really, back this up
6. The more powerful you are, the easier you are to corrupt
7. Protecting against evil is specifically said to be useless against his corruption, as the more powerful you are, the easier you are to corrupt

Really, do you back up your points or just rely on these annoying falsities.

And Harui-Kun, Saruon is better than chuck noris. But bruce lee would kick his ass

from,
EE

[Rowanomicon]

1) "Powerful wizard" in middle earth terms.
2) Any Middle Earth mortal.
3) Actualy he just has a Phylactery.
4) Sorry, don't know much about old squidface
5) Humanoids, animals and a spirit form. He can't become a Tarrasque or Balor. Tolkien "Deity"s are stupidly weak compared to D&D, Marvel comics or DC comics.
6) Essentialy a type of Prying Eyes. It could very well be blocked with a high will save or magical protection (this is unknown as there aren't any powerful mages in Middle Earth).
1) Actually he is ridiculously more powerful than any ME wizards and is (by all accounts) more powerful than every being except Eru.
2) Yes, he is in his own universe, you win.
3) Actually he cannot be destroyed at all, period. He can be diminished in power if The Ring is destroyed.
4) OK
5) He can become any living being. After *the incident* he was unable to assume a "fair" form.
6) Riiight...



A high will save or Protection Against Evil would work.

O RLY?

[The_Snark]

5) Humanoids, animals and a spirit form. He can't become a Tarrasque or Balor.

Right. After all, there are certainly no lesser Maiar in Tolkien's writing who take the form of a balrog balor.

For the others, see my above sentiments.

[Ramos]

1) "Powerful wizard" in middle earth terms.
Yeah, he could wield magic to dominate others, control the weather, create illusions, cover the world in darkness, cause despair and strife, direct his armies mentally, corrupt the very ground and slowly change it to wasteland over the range of SEVERAL THOUSAND MILES. Yeah, not so much of a powerful wizard.



2) Any Middle Earth mortal.
Oooh, having the ability to create artifacts that can control the minds of entire nations and alter time or grant immortality-as all the rings could-is certainly not much of an acheivement. Creating swords that are lethal to ANY mortal with one blow and the ability to turn them to undead in his control after their death is also not much of an acheivement either...



3) Actualy he just has a Phylactery.
Really? And his Phylactery survived having an enitre continent dropped upon it by the Creator? Also note that he had the ability to assume spirit-form long before he made the ring.


5) Humanoids, animals and a spirit form. He can't become a Tarrasque or Balor. Tolkien "Deity"s are stupidly weak compared to D&D, Marvel comics or DC comics.
And vampires, and werewolves, and demons and any other form you can imagine within his power-it's one of his abilities. Read the Silmarillion again. It is not as if seven lesser Maiar haven't transformed themselves to Balrog already-and Sauron is not a lesser Maia.


6) Essentialy a type of Prying Eyes. It could very well be blocked with a high will save or magical protection (this is unknown as there aren't any powerful mages in Middle Earth).
Actually, no. Prying eyes have a move speed of 60 ft per round and are blocked by magical barriers such as illusions or any sort of physical barriers. Sauron can look over thousands of miles in an instant, see through any physical barrier, see through illusions-even those created by demigods-and read the thoughts of those he sees. That's actually MORE than the DnD remote sensing of deities can do. Read the divine rules again.


A high will save or Protection Against Evil would work.
No, sorry. Neither Gandalf-a demigod-nor Aragorn-a human that was able to overcome his domination by will albeit briefly-could block Sauron's eye. They both had insanely high will saves and Gandalf did have protection from evil as well as numerous illusions and abjurations.

[EvilElitest]

1) Actually he is ridiculously more powerful than any ME wizards and is (by all accounts) more powerful than every being except Eru.
Your right about the wizards, but isn't Sauron weaker than the Valar in direct comat (though he seems smarter sadly)

Also, i love the fact that we just have a list of powers to bring up when ever we want for these vs. thread
from
EE

[GolemsVoice]

Hm. I must say that I dislike the manner in which this thread claims overallvictory for Saruon, because it contradicts what II think is the spirit of Vs. threads. In my opinion, the fascinatingthing about those threads is that you can argue, and see how a creature would look if it was taken out of his respective environment. That means speculating, looking up sources and thinking about what you have seen that creature do. Most of the beings that are discussed are the top powers, or amongst them, in their respective universe (The Lich King/ Sauron/Cthulhu/The God-Emperor of Man), and would easily crush anything that is given to them. But what makes a versus thread exciting is that you can imagine what for example Sauron's power would look like in another world.
A few examples: Cthulhu in the Lovecraft universe is unstoppable, by most human means. But if Cthulhu would ever pop up in a Warhammer 40k battle, he would see himself surrounded by powerful warriors with all the means to beat him, maybe forever.
Likewise, in many low-magic worlds, fantastic creatures have the huge advantage that they are, often, the only ones who use sorcerous powers, or have a hide that can only be penetrated by magic, which is not easily available. But in DnD, or WoW, where magic is as common as, say, water, the beast would find himself one amongst thousand others, and by no means the top of the food chain.
So, I think, it is no good making a "Sauron Wins"-trump card that you can hand to anyone daring to mention THE DARK LORD, because it takes the discussion out of the threads which are meant to be discussed.

[EvilElitest]

No this isn't a "We love Sauron thread" it is just a recap

In the many Vs. Sauron thread, the sauron team has to go through the extremly long thick books to find evidence for his powers
Now after three or so threads this gets boring
So this is a recap of his powers to remember

Now in vs. threads, if it is vs. Sauorn, i will just cut and paste this thread's statments then go one with the arugment


A few examples: Cthulhu in the Lovecraft universe is unstoppable, by most human means.

Cthulhu defeated Saruon in a thread, but it wasn't interesting. Saruon 'Can' be defeated, Cthulhu cannot
from
EE

[GoC]

1) Actually he is ridiculously more powerful than any ME wizards and is (by all accounts) more powerful than every being except Eru.
Who?:smallconfused:


3) Actually he cannot be destroyed at all, period. He can be diminished in power if The Ring is destroyed.
Diminished to the point were he can't affect the material plane is pretty much "dead".


5) He can become any living being. After *the incident* he was unable to assume a "fair" form.
How do you know?
What forms apart from humanoid and animal (and Ethereal Jaunt) can he assume? Maybe dragons? Anything else? No Balors? Thought not.


Yeah, he could wield magic to dominate others, control the weather, create illusions, cover the world in darkness, cause despair and strife, direct his armies mentally, corrupt the very ground and slowly change it to wasteland over the range of SEVERAL THOUSAND MILES. Yeah, not so much of a powerful wizard.
But he can't cast Disintegrate.
Note the difference between LotR magic and other types? LotR magic is effective over a much wider area than "normal" but it's effects are MUCH weaker.


Oooh, having the ability to create artifacts that can control the minds of entire nations and alter time or grant immortality-as all the rings could-is certainly not much of an acheivement.
Not control. Just influence (see above comment on LotR magic) and that influence over time becomes stronger.
Alter time? Your evidence?


Creating swords that are lethal to ANY mortal with one blow and the ability to turn them to undead in his control after their death is also not much of an acheivement either...
Not in D&D terms. A powerful artificer could mass produce them instead of just nine (or less).


Really? And his Phylactery survived having an enitre continent dropped upon it by the Creator? Also note that he had the ability to assume spirit-form long before he made the ring.
Ethereal Jaunt. Awesome.
Even on ordinary ring would survive a continent dropping on it.


And vampires, and werewolves, and demons and any other form you can imagine within his power-it's one of his abilities. Read the Silmarillion again. It is not as if seven lesser Maiar haven't transformed themselves to Balrog already-and Sauron is not a lesser Maia.
I'm afraid I don't have the Silmarillion (I looked at it once but couldn't get past the first chapter).
Mind telling me why Gandalf didn't transform into a Balrog or something when he was stuck up a tree? He's the most powerful of the lesser Maiar with Sauramon's demise IIRC.


Actually, no. Prying eyes have a move speed of 60 ft per round and are blocked by magical barriers such as illusions or any sort of physical barriers. Sauron can look over thousands of miles in an instant, see through any physical barrier, see through illusions-even those created by demigods-and read the thoughts of those he sees. That's actually MORE than the DnD remote sensing of deities can do. Read the divine rules again.
Sorry, wrong spell. What I meant was a combination of Prying Eyes and Scry.
Again, LotR spells have greater range/area but less direct effect.


No, sorry. Neither Gandalf-a demigod-nor Aragorn-a human that was able to overcome his domination by will albeit briefly-could block Sauron's eye. They both had insanely high will saves and Gandalf did have protection from evil as well as numerous illusions and abjurations.
Numerous illusions?:smallconfused:
In LotR most of his magic is fire magic which comes from his ring.
Insanely high will saves? Why couldn't it just be +6 to will? How do you know he had Protection From Evil? The evidence?



AAAAUUUURRRRRGGGHHHH! Too many responses.:smalleek:
I should be putting the finishing touches on my admissions essay. I'll reply to EE later but for now:

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment.

7. Protecting against evil is specifically said to be useless against his corruption
Nope. Can't see it.

[Ramos]

Diminished to the point were he can't affect the material plane is pretty much "dead".
True-but only if the ring is destroyed. That requires: that the ring is in the posession of the enemy. That the enemy is not corrupted by the ring. That the enemy knows what the ring is (and the only way to reveal the ring's "identity" is to cast it into a fire and read the inscription in Quenya letters on it-something very few can do). That the enemy has access to the Mount of Doom.
The above things are impossible in the versus threads because Sauron's enemies would have no knowledge of the ring's purpose-and because Sauron himself will be wielding the Ring himself. So to destroy the ring someone first has to defeat Sauron and get the ring.



How do you know?
What forms apart from humanoid and animal (and Ethereal Jaunt) can he assume? Maybe dragons? Anything else? No Balors? Thought not.
He can assume the forms of many beasts-werewolf and vampire are mentioned specifically at least-but he is not limited to the strength of the forms he assumes. He is much, much stronger than the creatures whose form he assumes-his physical strength is not limited by the assumed form. E.g. when assuming the form of a werewolf, he fought with another immortal being for a long time where common werewolves were killed by said being effortlessly.
Also, in the various wars, he was stronger than the lesser Maiar (such as the Balrog) or the other servants of his master (such as the giants and dragons). The only reason he assumed the form of a Werewolf to fight was not to assume the werewolves' strength (he was much stronger already) but because Fate said his enemy would be slain by a werewolf. He tried to cheat Fate that way but he failed.



But he can't cast Disintegrate.
Note the difference between LotR magic and other types? LotR magic is effective over a much wider area than "normal" but it's effects are MUCH weaker.
Much Weaker? Really? Permanently making someone evil and under your command is on par with Dominate Monster or Mindrape. 9th level spells with a range of close (75 ft for a 20th level wizard) and a single target. Sauron can do that to many targets from thousands of miles away. Permanently turning SB into an immortal wraith that cannot die except through Fate's intervention or along with you is Create Greater Undead on steroids-perhaps an Epic Animate Dead. And he put that on not one but NINE rings and NINE swords. Not even epic artificers can put epic spells on items. Covering half a continent in darkness like he did during the War of the Ring (at least from Barad-Dur to Minas Tirith-and that's more than a thousand miles) is beyond the scope of even the Epic Spell Eclipse. Constantly communicating with and guiding hundreds of thousands of orcs spread over an entire kingdom is well over the scope of the most powerful Telepathic Bond spells.
So yes, Middle-Earth magic is limited to Illusion, Divination, Enchantment, Necromancy and Abjuration with the exception of the immortals such as some of the Maiar and all of the Valar that CAN do Evocation and Conjuration if they want-but it is by no means weak, especially if the wielder is Sauron or another immortal.



Not control. Just influence (see above comment on LotR magic) and that influence over time becomes stronger.
Alter time? Your evidence?
I dunno. Granting immortality by simply wearing a ring-even a lesser ring, for starters. Galandriel and Elrond using their rings to preserve Lothlorien and Rivendell respectively against the ravages of time, the passage of the ages and the darkening of the world for more than three thousand years. No, it is not time-travel or time-stop. But it is stopping the effects of time's passage and the changes inflicted upon vast areas for many millenia. And that's what rings weaker than the One Ring can do, things the elves made that Sauron taught them how to make.



Not in D&D terms. A powerful artificer could mass produce them instead of just nine (or less).
Really? A powerful artificer can mass-produce swords that cast a much more powerful (perhaps epic) version of Create Greater Undead on killing someone (to turn them into a ring-wraith under the control of the wielder on death) in addition to placing them under a lethal curse (make that Bestow Greater Curse) ? That's at least a 9th level and an 8th level spell-both castable on use (at each and every blow). Assuming a caster level of 20, that's 17x20x2.000 or a MINIMUM of 680.000 gp cost, not counting the cost of the base enchantment. These are epic items because they cost more than 200.000 GP. So, cost multiplied by 10x. Therefore, each sword has a cost of 6.800.000 GP minimum in DnD terms and requires 3.400.000 GP of materials and 272.000 XP. Each. Yeah, I reeeally want to see an artificer mass-producing these.



Ethereal Jaunt. Awesome.
Even on ordinary ring would survive a continent dropping on it.
Nope. Ethereal Jaunt gives you a speed of 60 ft. Sauron entering spirit-form (which he can do WITHOUT the ring BTW) allows him to move thousands of miles in very short time. Even ignoring that, Ethereal Jaunt is a 7th level spell. Just making it a swift action, makies it an 11th level effect. Care to calculate what level it would be as an Immediate action so it can be used as a reaction to a continent dropping on you? I'd say, 13th level. CL 26 for it and it is Epic so it costs around SEVEN MILLION gp. Yeah, a very cheap, ordinary ring.



I'm afraid I don't have the Silmarillion (I looked at it once but couldn't get past the first chapter).
Mind telling me why Gandalf didn't transform into a Balrog or something when he was stuck up a tree? He's the most powerful of the lesser Maiar with Sauramon's demise IIRC.
Because Gandalf was forbidden from using his powers unless he absolutely had to by Manwe Sulimo, king of the Valar. Do you really believe someone who can fall 6000 feet into Moria and survive, battle a Balrog in meele and not be batted aside in one blow, fight against said Balrog for THREE DAYS without pause, survive the Balrog's flame that can melt rock and the unearthly cold of a very high mountain for those three days and eventually win would care falling 30 ft down the tree and take 20 minutes to kill the damn goblins? Ofcourse not. He was just forbidden from doing so by his lord-because, being the wisest of the Maiar, Gandalf had the ability to foresee his own "rescue" and thus didn't absolutely need to use his power. All the "deus ex machina" things Gandalf does-his ability to know exactly what he needs to do most of the time and his ability to be where he is needed is foresight.



Sorry, wrong spell. What I meant was a combination of Prying Eyes and Scry.
Again, LotR spells have greater range/area but less direct effect.
Prying Eyes+Scry is a 10th level total-that can be blocked if the opponent makes a will save or has Dispel or destroys the sensors or is covered by lead. Sauron's vision has same effect without the limitations. Deity remote sensing more than a spell.



Numerous illusions?:smallconfused:
In LotR most of his magic is fire magic which comes from his ring.
Insanely high will saves? Why couldn't it just be +6 to will? How do you know he had Protection From Evil? The evidence?
In LotR, Gandalf does not use illusion except to create shapes with his smoking and to appear much less than he really is. He is constantly cloaking his true self-he threatens Bilbo that he will "see Gandalf the Grey without his cloak" and he suddenly appears much taller, powerful and overwhelming enough to break the ring's hold on Bilbo. And that's just threatening to drop the illusion of his humanity-not actually dropping it. In Hobbit, he uses illusion to alter the perceptions of the trolls. He also uses illusion to hide himself while sneaking into the Necromancer's (Sauron's) lair though it is not directly stated but given Sauron's ability of perception and seeing through walls, Gandalf has to do so to remain unseen. Through the entire series he appears very human-like and harmless, despite having the strength (and it is physical strength in addition to magic) to go toe to toe with the Balrog or the agility and power to battle the Nine Ringwraiths combined and win.
For the insanely high will save? Duh, he's a demigod older than the world. He challenges Sauron in mental combat as Gandalf the White to draw Sauron's eye away from Mordor during the war's conclusion. He's the wisest of the Maiar-including Saruman and Sauron.
On his protection from evil-he's utterly fearless against the Balrog even when said Balrog paralyses in fear Legolas, a supposedly fearless elf, with a mere glimpse. He faces the Nine without suffering the suprenatural terror they cause to others, something not even Aragorn and Glorfindel combined can do. He, as Gandalf the White, faces the Dark Lord mentally. If he doesn't have protection from evil, he's immune to mind-affecting effects or has divine immunities-take your pick.

[....]

Sauron still loses to Cthulhu.

And John McLane.

Sorry.

[Ramos]

I never contested that he loses to Cthulhu-he's only a demigod bordering on lesser deity and Cthulhu could be done as a lesser deity. Ofcourse, if we go by the powers displayed in the books for the two of them instead of the power people assume they have or power implied, Sauron is stronger by several orders of magnitude.

Who's John McLane?

[GoC]

Well I'm withdrawing from all vs. Sauron discusions partly due to lack of time and partly due to lack of Silmarillion.
It's been very enlightning and I've learnt lots of stuff I never knew about Sauron before but I've got to go.

Nitpicks:

Covering half a continent in darkness like he did during the War of the Ring (at least from Barad-Dur to Minas Tirith-and that's more than a thousand miles) is beyond the scope of even the Epic Spell Eclipse. Constantly communicating with and guiding hundreds of thousands of orcs spread over an entire kingdom is well over the scope of the most powerful Telepathic Bond spells.
Like I said, LotR magic has far greater range.



I dunno. Granting immortality by simply wearing a ring-even a lesser ring, for starters. Galandriel and Elrond using their rings to preserve Lothlorien and Rivendell respectively against the ravages of time, the passage of the ages and the darkening of the world for more than three thousand years. No, it is not time-travel or time-stop. But it is stopping the effects of time's passage and the changes inflicted upon vast areas for many millenia. And that's what rings weaker than the One Ring can do, things the elves made that Sauron taught them how to make.
That can mostly be explained due to the differences in the magic system. I've no idea why the designers of D&D say you don't stop aging until well after you can stop time, travel the planes and create your own and decimate huge armies.



Really? A powerful artificer can mass-produce swords that cast a much more powerful (perhaps epic) version of Create Greater Undead on killing someone (to turn them into a ring-wraith under the control of the wielder on death) in addition to placing them under a lethal curse (make that Bestow Greater Curse) ? That's at least a 9th level and an 8th level spell-both castable on use (at each and every blow). Assuming a caster level of 20, that's 17x20x2.000 or a MINIMUM of 680.000 gp cost, not counting the cost of the base enchantment. These are epic items because they cost more than 200.000 GP. So, cost multiplied by 10x. Therefore, each sword has a cost of 6.800.000 GP minimum in DnD terms and requires 3.400.000 GP of materials and 272.000 XP. Each. Yeah, I reeeally want to see an artificer mass-producing these.
I'd make it just a normal curse instead of greater but that's beside the point. It's a single use item dropping it's cost to a much more reasonable 68,000gp.


Nope. Ethereal Jaunt gives you a speed of 60 ft. Sauron entering spirit-form (which he can do WITHOUT the ring BTW) allows him to move thousands of miles in very short time. Even ignoring that, Ethereal Jaunt is a 7th level spell. Just making it a swift action, makies it an 11th level effect. Care to calculate what level it would be as an Immediate action so it can be used as a reaction to a continent dropping on you? I'd say, 13th level. CL 26 for it and it is Epic so it costs around SEVEN MILLION gp. Yeah, a very cheap, ordinary ring.
Ethereal Jaunt and then later casting a weaker version of Teleport (or maybe Windwalk)?
Are you sure he didn't just die and then reform later?
It might have also taken several seconds for the continent to land so it could have been a standard action.


Because Gandalf was forbidden from using his powers unless he absolutely had to by Manwe Sulimo, king of the Valar. Do you really believe someone who can fall 6000 feet into Moria and survive, battle a Balrog in meele and not be batted aside in one blow, fight against said Balrog for THREE DAYS without pause, survive the Balrog's flame that can melt rock and the unearthly cold of a very high mountain for those three days and eventually win would care falling 30 ft down the tree and take 20 minutes to kill the damn goblins? Ofcourse not. He was just forbidden from doing so by his lord-because, being the wisest of the Maiar, Gandalf had the ability to foresee his own "rescue" and thus didn't absolutely need to use his power. All the "deus ex machina" things Gandalf does-his ability to know exactly what he needs to do most of the time and his ability to be where he is needed is foresight.
That explains A LOT.
I'd made quite a few assumtions based on Gandalf's power.
Note: It's the book itself (not any character) that says that (paraphrased) "for all his power he was incapable of escape" and was preparing a kamikazi. But I'm given to understand this was because Tolkein hadn't thought of setting the Hobbit in the same universe as he would later put the Silmarillion.


Prying Eyes+Scry is a 10th level total-that can be blocked if the opponent makes a will save or has Dispel or destroys the sensors or is covered by lead. Sauron's vision has same effect without the limitations.
We're not 100% sure about that.


He, as Gandalf the White, faces the Dark Lord mentally. If he doesn't have protection from evil, he's immune to mind-affecting effects or has divine immunities-take your pick.
Apparently he's not. He probably just made his save by enough that he had the option of trying to turn the spell effect on Sauron.

Aaaanyway, my last thought:
It would appear that the LotR books (escpecialy The Hobbit) are set in quite a different universe from the Silmarillion.

[EvilElitest]

Who?:smallconfused:

Exactly


Diminished to the point were he can't affect the material plane is pretty much "dead".
No, yet again, you saying something doesn't make it true. For the purpose of winning a vs. thread defeated yes, but never dead


How do you know?
Most likely through a skill called reading and looking up sources, which is more preferable than your border line trolling method of saying "I can just say something and not even bother to back it up with a rational argument because whenever i say something it is right"
If you want to back a canadite in a vs. Sauron thread, please go ahead, make choose to chose somebody who will be an interesting oppenent, because this bickering is senseless, your not even backing up your points.


What forms apart from humanoid and animal (and Ethereal Jaunt) can he assume? Maybe dragons? Anything else? No Balors? Thought not.


Balor don't exist in LOTRS. He can turn into Maiar spirts, and that includes Balrogs who are far greater than Balors who if you haven't notics, are slightly similer, in the same way the Lich king's name and the Witch King's name are similer



But he can't cast Disintegrate.
he kinda can though, not in the D&D sense, but who ever he touches justs burns to dust( Gil-ad)
So he lacks D&D magic, do you expect him to have spell from a universe that came into existence years after his creation?


Note the difference between LotR magic and other types? LotR magic is effective over a much wider area than "normal" but it's effects are MUCH weaker.

prove it, because i just say BS

Not control. Just influence (see above comment on LotR magic) and that influence over time becomes stronger.
Alter time? Your evidence?
can't say for the alter time theory, but control yes, oh gods yes. He can bend all evil creatures to his will and dominate all but the pure of heart, and if he can't dominate the pure, he can corrupt them.


Not in D&D terms. A powerful artificer could mass produce them instead of just nine (or less).
wait, what blade in D&D is an always one hit kill (which a morgul blade praticlly is, you need super healing magic to fix it). I dont' know of any


Ethereal Jaunt. Awesome.
Your point?


Even on ordinary ring would survive a continent dropping on it.

WTF? I don't even know if your making sense



I'm afraid I don't have the Silmarillion (I looked at it once but couldn't get past the first chapter).
Considering your arguments, it seems you haven't bothered to read the books very well at all


Mind telling me why Gandalf didn't transform into a Balrog or something when he was stuck up a tree?
Ummm, what? WTF?


He's the most powerful of the lesser Maiar with Sauramon's demise IIRC.

He correct, he was the second greatest Wizard, not Maiar, there were plenty of powerful Maiar spirits


Sorry, wrong spell. What I meant was a combination of Prying Eyes and Scry.
Again, LotR spells have greater range/area but less direct effect.

Except Sauron's doesn't wear off, he can use it whenever he wants, can see through anything, and can use it to crush the will of others


Numerous illusions?:smallconfused:
what?

In LotR most of his magic is fire magic which comes from his ring.
No, they say several times his greatest power is his corruption


Insanely high will saves? Why couldn't it just be +6 to will? How do you know he had Protection From Evil? The evidence?
1. No, just no
2. Gandalf is a directy servent to the Valar granted intense holy powers, while Aragorn is from a holy blood line. Translated=Holy badass



AAAAUUUURRRRRGGGHHHH! Too many responses.:smalleek:
I should be putting the finishing touches on my admissions essay. I'll reply to EE later but for now:
can you back up your points or at least back a candidate, because currently it seems like your just trying to do a D&D vs. Sauron attempt, which frankly doesn't make sense.


Nope. Can't see it.

Considering your record of backing up points, i'm not surprised
from,
EE

[Anteros]

Is anyone else getting tired of reading insults concerning fantasy vs. threads? I'm not going to point any fingers but, it's a fictional character, calm down.

[Ramos]

Hey, made a Sauron DnD conversion. It's here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67360

[GoC]

Most likely through a skill called reading and looking up sources, which is more preferable than your border line trolling method of saying "I can just say something and not even bother to back it up with a rational argument because whenever i say something it is right"

If you want to back a canadite in a vs. Sauron thread, please go ahead, make choose to chose somebody who will be an interesting oppenent, because this bickering is senseless, your not even backing up your points.
Sorry, I just don't have the time to back them up (yes I was going to) and am thus withdrawing.


prove it, because i just say BS
That was just an observation. Calm down.


WTF? I don't even know if your making sense
A bit of physics might help here. I'm not going to continue arguing about Sauron but I always like lecturing on solid state physics. What's your background? (A-levels? SAT? Other?)


Considering your arguments, it seems you haven't bothered to read the books very well at all
Yeah, I only read The Hobbit and LotR. That was actualy a while ago. I was going off memory and wikipedia.


Ummm, what? WTF?
In The Hobbit. This was cover by Ramos quite nicely though.


Except Sauron's doesn't wear off, he can use it whenever he wants, can see through anything, and can use it to crush the will of others
True, true.permanency.:smalltongue: Ok, ok I'm leaving!


No, they say several times his greatest power is his corruption
That was about Gandalf.


can you back up your points or at least back a candidate, because currently it seems like your just trying to do a D&D vs. Sauron attempt, which frankly doesn't make sense.
I was trying to use D&D as a point of reference because almost everyone here is familiar with it. Not that it matters any more...



Considering your record of backing up points, i'm not surprised
from,
EE

Heh, I'll be sure to back up my points very thoroughly next time.:smalltongue:
I'll be back to serious vs.ing after new year and those admissions essays are done.

Cheers!

-GoC out.

[stm177]

Sauron would still lose to a comedy hero or comedy protagonist because it is funny. So, the Luggage, Bugs Bunny, or Mandy (Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy) would all beat him.

To get technical, no matter how strong Sauron is even by the laws of his universe, those laws get warped, changed, or shattered when he faces Bugs Bunny.

[Winterwind]

I don't know how, but for some reason I completely missed this thread until now.

Ramos, I wanted to express my gratitude for creating this thread as well. Sauron really was not treated fairly in quite a few Vs. threads; this should help.

I think there is yet another point to add, however, which I think was not mentioned in this thread yet (unless I missed it again, for which I apologise): There is a vast difference between Sauron in the books and Sauron in the movies. Sauron in the books is, indeed, terrifying on a level bordering Cthulhuesque, and not just a huge guy in plate armour wielding a mace. He is never described in detail for good reason. Also, in the books, he is not defeated by a fluke attack severing the Ring from his hand - Isildur cuts off the Ring after Sauron already was defeated by a joint attack by Isildur, Gil-Galad, Elendil and who knows how many heroic elven and human warriors, most of whom perished during this attack.
To summarise, I got the impression that quite a few people dismiss Sauron as weak, because they have seen only the movies and believe them to be a fair representation of the Dark Lord, while actually Sauron is way more frightening and powerful in the books.

[Ossian]

On me Sauron's appearance on the battlefield (movies) had a different effect. Having read the books (more than once) years before the movies, I alreday had a certain awe inspired by him when I stepped into the cinema. When I saw the pure "OH S**T WE're so F*****D now" look on the faces of the Numenoreans I thought: That's My Overlord!
I'd have drawn it differently, and I would have given more spoace to the fight against him, but I still they they have been fair enough to him (cheap shot from Isildur aside, that was just ridiculous). Probably the guy in armor with mace was just a nod at Morgoth and Grond.

Still, I must say that most of the Vs Sauron threads are just silly. I mean, some of them have enough humor to be taken for what they are. Friendly exchange of jokes and incredible outcomes of an otherwise obvious battle. Yet when you see "What if we pitted Batman in the proverbial 1mile wide cage against Sauron" threads, it really becomes boring.

O.

[Winterwind]

On me Sauron's appearance on the battlefield (movies) had a different effect. Having read the books (more than once) years before the movies, I alreday had a certain awe inspired by him when I stepped into the cinema. When I saw the pure "OH S**T WE're so F*****D now" look on the faces of the Numenoreans I thought: That's My Overlord!
I'd have drawn it differently, and I would have given more spoace to the fight against him, but I still they they have been fair enough to him (cheap shot from Isildur aside, that was just ridiculous). Probably the guy in armor with mace was just a nod at Morgoth and Grond. Oh, actually, I had the very same impression. But when reading these Vs. threads and repeatedly seeing posts in the vein of "Sauron? Meh, just some guy with a mace. What can he do?", it occured to me that, perhaps, some people who had not read the books did not quite share this awe.


Still, I must say that most of the Vs Sauron threads are just silly. I mean, some of them have enough humor to be taken for what they are. Friendly exchange of jokes and incredible outcomes of an otherwise obvious battle. Yet when you see "What if we pitted Batman in the proverbial 1mile wide cage against Sauron" threads, it really becomes boring. Same sentiments here.

[GoC]

To summarise, I got the impression that quite a few people dismiss Sauron as weak, because they have seen only the movies and believe them to be a fair representation of the Dark Lord, while actually Sauron is way more frightening and powerful in the books.

I read the book a long time before I saw the movie and my first thought was "That's Sauron?:smallconfused: ". He just didn't seem at all like the book. In the book he's terrifying, in the movies he's "Meh, some big dude in armor.". The wraiths I thought were done very badly. They were nowhere near as terrifying as in the books.:smallcool:
But the thing I really hated was the portrayel of Galandriel.:smallmad:
She's not an evil and ugly witch!:smallfurious:
She's a beautiful and wise high elf of holy power!

I also thought they upped the power level in the movie (though Ramos has since corrected me) with Gandalf having telekenesis and superstrength and the Balrog being much bulkier and not seeming mostly illusion as it does in the book.

Disclaimer: These were just my impressions upon seeing the movie and reading the book and are not intended to be arguments.

[Rutee]

For those defending Sauron, try and bear in mind that he was the second in command, and second in power to, what is essentially Satan, and that there are tons of people who slay entities on par with an Abrahamic God, or with Satan. If he's treated unfairly, it's because he's given /too much/ consideration, not too little.

[EvilElitest]

For those defending Sauron, try and bear in mind that he was the second in command, and second in power to, what is essentially Satan, and that there are tons of people who slay entities on par with an Abrahamic God, or with Satan. If he's treated unfairly, it's because he's given /too much/ consideration, not too little.
depends who he is up against, because in most vs. threads he is treated weaker than he is, not stronger
he can't defeat everybody however
from,
EE

[Rutee]

Certainly not the ones I've read. He was generally being given the same consideration as a God, just below the Abrahamic one. Which is above and beyond what he deserves, but is hardly, as I've stated, undefeatable. The most egregious ones would be whoever it was that said "Pft, he would auto-corrupt people who break universes because they're evil". His corruption range is demonstrably smaller then a continent. Within the books (Which, yes, have him at significantly below his maximum potential power), he fails to corrupt 7/9 members of the fellowship, whom were all right next to the focus of his power for quite a long time.

When one shatters a plane of existence, one can do it from a very long way away; If his corruption range is small enough to be easily measured by a human, it's not large enough to deal with universal destruction. It's not large enough to deal with *Planetary* destruction, even, which is indescribably smaller.

[EvilElitest]

Certainly not the ones I've read. He was generally being given the same consideration as a God, just below the Abrahamic one.

Not really, powerful yes, he just seems to get pitted against foes who can't really beat him because they lack the means of defeating him (like the LK who doesn't have the cabilities to defeat him) or are two powerful and Sauron could never hope to win (Cthulu, Rastilin)



Which is above and beyond what he deserves, but is hardly, as I've stated, undefeatable.
For the record, i've never made that claim


The most egregious ones would be whoever it was that said "Pft, he would auto-corrupt people who break universes because they're evil".
Shrug, wasn't me, can't speak for who ever said that


His corruption range is demonstrably smaller then a continent. Within the books (Which, yes, have him at significantly below his maximum potential power), he fails to corrupt 7/9 members of the fellowship, whom were all right next to the focus of his power for quite a long time.
In his defense
1. He wasn't aware where the ring was excactly, so his corruption was quite subtle and it wasn't him so much as his ring
2. Aragorn, Gandalf, gimli and Legolas admit to being vurnable to corruption, it was just a matter of time
3. They were good guys, the type of people who he has the hardest time to corrupt
Sauron corrupting Good guys vairies, Sauron against evil guys is a major consideration
To be fair though, no he can't auto corrupt



When one shatters a plane of existence, one can do it from a very long way away; If his corruption range is small enough to be easily measured by a human, it's not large enough to deal with universal destruction. It's not large enough to deal with *Planetary* destruction, even, which is indescribably smaller.

Can't really argue with that, but wasn't my statement. However, this thread i believe never claimed he could do that.
from,'
EE

[Rutee]

Sigh; Case in point. You're writing off the Lich King. Whether in the end he'd win or lose I'm not going to get into; That's an actual debate, and I got quite sick of the lot of you within it, because the drywall in my house listens better. It has it's own thread, more importantly. Whether it is within his capability to kill an entity on this scale though? Is not; Entities exist in Warcraft on a similar scale in personal power, and they've been bested by lesser foes.

My issue is how much consideration is given to him when he's not facing off some insanely overpowerred enemy (I don't think, for instance, that people would write off the Imperium of Man vs. Mordor, because the Imperium of Man is stupid powerful. And no, I'm not complaining. The Imperium of Man is exactly as powerful as a galaxy spanning empire should be, most writers in fiction just don't care about realistic numbers.), and that consideration is, well, considerable, as just demonstrated by yourself. It makes me vaguely curious as to why there's no middle ground between "Dirt" and "Cthonic deity or higher."

[EvilElitest]

Sigh; Case in point. You're writing off the Lich King.

Well the smoke cleared from that thread and Sauron is still standing




Whether in the end he'd win or lose I'm not going to get into;
Because thats been done to death, my point was if one wished to create a vs. Sauron thread, please do it against somebody of equal power, and keep teh notes of the first page in mind
The Lich King was very good and interesting


That's an actual debate, and I got quite sick of the lot of you within it,
We love you to


because the drywall in my house listens better.
Funny, i thought the same thing

It has it's own thread, more importantly. Whether it is within his capability to kill an entity on this scale though? Is not; Entities exist in Warcraft on a similar scale in personal power, and they've been bested by lesser foes.

Not really, the only thing in Warcraft that is equal to a valar seems to be a Titans, and i'm pretty sure they could defeat Sauron.



My issue is how much consideration is given to him when he's not facing off some insanely overpowerred enemy (I don't think, for instance, that people would write off the Imperium of Man vs. Mordor, because the Imperium of Man is stupid powerful. And no, I'm not complaining. The Imperium of Man is exactly as powerful as a galaxy spanning empire should be, most writers in fiction just don't care about realistic numbers.), and that consideration is, well, considerable, as just demonstrated by yourself.
Or the elder gods, there was an absurd thread about Sauron vs. them and it wasn't remotly interesting as Sauron didn't really have a chance


It makes me vaguely curious as to why there's no middle ground between "Dirt" and "Cthonic deity or higher."
There is
from,
EE

[Rutee]

Not really, the only thing in Warcraft that is equal to a valar seems to be a Titans, and i'm pretty sure they could defeat Sauron.
Morgoth and Sargeras are equals, Sauron is beneath Morgoth. It seems to me that Sauron would, as chief lieutenant to what is essentially Satan, be the equal of Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden, since they occupy a similar role. One of those two was offed. True, not by the Lich King, but by a lesser force just the same.

Regardless, my point is "Legitimate threat is just lulzed", as you've been doing. Hence my comparing of y'all to drywall, in terms of your capability to listen. Personally I've learned tons about the Middle Earth-verse without having to waste my time reading Tolkien's godawful writing. It's just, you know, been from Walking Target. Who is a darn reasonable fellow.


Funny, i thought the same thing
It's funny because it's not true, for you. Simple fact is, I have in fact been /reading/ the expositions on Sauron, et al. I have also been listening to word of God from both sides, another thing I can safely say y'all haven't been doing (Why is the Witch King in the header of a vs. Thread against a being that's !Fear? Tolkien himself effectively called him a wuss, on the cosmic scale, if you're !Fear)

There is
Saying it, and /acting/ like it? Two very different things.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Morgoth and Sargeras are equals, Sauron is beneath Morgoth. It seems to me that Sauron would, as chief lieutenant to what is essentially Satan, be the equal of Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden, since they occupy a similar role. One of those two was offed. True, not by the Lich King, but by a lesser force just the same.

Regardless, my point is "Legitimate threat is just lulzed", as you've been doing. Hence my comparing of y'all to drywall, in terms of your capability to listen. Personally I've learned tons about the Middle Earth-verse without having to waste my time reading Tolkien's godawful writing. It's just, you know, been from Walking Target. Who is a darn reasonable fellow.


It's funny because it's not true, for you. Simple fact is, I have in fact been /reading/ the expositions on Sauron, et al. I have also been listening to word of God from both sides, another thing I can safely say y'all haven't been doing (Why is the Witch King in the header of a vs. Thread against a being that's !Fear? Tolkien himself effectively called him a wuss, on the cosmic scale, if you're !Fear)

Saying it, and /acting/ like it? Two very different things.

I'm sorry, but are you trying to make comments on Sauron, whiole admitting you haven't read a single word of Tolkien true work?

In this order...
:smalleek:
:smallconfused:
:smallyuk:
:smallfrown:
:smallannoyed:
:smallmad:
:smallfurious:

[Rutee]

I'm sorry, but are you trying to make comments on Sauron, whiole admitting you haven't read a single word of Tolkien true work?

In this order...
:smalleek:
:smallconfused:
:smallyuk:
:smallfrown:
:smallannoyed:
:smallmad:
:smallfurious:

Yes, yes I am. Tolkien is a godawful writer, and I have nothing to apologize for in not reading the Lord of the Rings.

Now, if the issue is speaking about something I didn't read firsthand, I /strongly/ suggest you do the same to everyone who defaced Sauron's opponents without actually reading/playing their original works, because it's a rather large number people doing so. And unlike the Pro-Sauron people not reading the works of Sauron's opponent, I actually /read/ the posts in support of the opposition. Especially Walking Target; He doesn't bother arguing for anything, just posts straight exposition on the LotR-verse in readable english; Further, since he doesn't have an emotional stake, I can count on him to provide a fair assesment based on all information at hand.

[stm177]

Sort of an odd question, but are we supposed to take all the text in the LoTR and the Silmarillion as true?

I guess I'm asking if any of the stories were created as analogues to classical hyperbole. For example, it's pretty obvious that there weren't a million Persians at Thermopylae even if ancient texts claim there were.

[Winterwind]

Just a side-note - I have both read the Lord of the Rings (about 15 times), read the Silmarillion (a bit less often, but still something between half a dozen and a dozen times), and also played WarCraft II and III, and read a good bit of World of WarCraft lore in spite of not playing it. You don't see me posting in the Sauron vs. Lich King thread, for the simple reason that I consider both to be so close in power that I can't come up with arguments for either side.

My point, obviously not everyone who is somewhat knowledgeable in both universes (at least, I hope I am qualified to consider myself that) comes to the invariable conclusion that they are on entirely different power levels.

(Now, the claim that Tolkien is a horrible writer, on the other hand... :smalltongue: )

[warty goblin]

If I may defend myself:

1) On the Sauron vs. Voldemort thread I was familiar enough with both sources that I felt I knew both sides' capabilities well enough. I was wrong on some stuff and right on other stuff, which is to be expected when working with multiple multi-hundred page works. I have never claimed infaliability.

2) On the Sauron vs. Lich King thread, I admitted from the beginning that I didn't know Warcraft lore that well. However I frequently asked for information from those who know these things, and I also did a substantial amount of research on WoWwiki on my own. In short I admitted my ignorance and did my best to correct it as I went along. No, I did not go back and play WCIII or take out a WoW subscription due to time concerns and dislike for the gameplay, but I did make an effort to use information as well as I could. If I was extrapolating from source material I said so and provided supporting evidence, and have backed down on points once provided with sufficient evidence.

3) In general: Although I may be a founding member of a pro-Sauron group, that is just a laugh, and I am hardly an ideological pro-Sauron fanatic. I have conceded several Sauron vs. threads, and other Tolkeinverse vs. threads in the recent past. I may post pro-Tolkein points on these threads nevertheless merely because I have a decent command of Tolkeinien lore and wish to make the information available, not because I refuse to concede defeat.

[EvilElitest]

Morgoth and Sargeras are equals,

Meh, debatable, but both are to vauge to really understand, though it is worth noting that Sargeras only took over worlds while Morgoth created them, and that Sargeras was defeated by mortals while Morgoth at his weakest needed a whole pantheon of gods plus two continents worth of extremly powerful elves along with the greatest men, all the dwarves and ents to bring him down. But close enough


Sauron is beneath Morgoth. It seems to me that Sauron would, as chief lieutenant to what is essentially Satan, be the equal of Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden, since they occupy a similar role. One of those two was offed. True, not by the Lich King, but by a lesser force just the same.

Just to point out, all seconds in command are equal. Sauron is likely more powerful than archimond, but i really can't say for Kil'Jaeden (we haven't seen enough of him) unless you count armies where both seem to have limitless, but my point is just because their masters are close to equal strength doesn't mean they are.

Lets say Me and WG are extreme tennis players:smallbiggrin:
And by extreme, i mean we are both over the top, imagine prince of tennis on steroids
Now even though we are both extreme, we do very few public matches and so everyone has a very vauge idea of our powers. Both of us have been shown to pull of extreme stunts and everybody knows we have other moves that nobody knows about but we have never faced eachother
Now WG has been playing for years and took on legendary champion that we know a general estimate of their skill. However no body saw those matches. He eventually got worst and worst (still amazing, just less so) to the point that he only had a fraction of his tennis powers. Then all the legendary players in the world challenged him to a massive game were he had to take them all on one at a time no breaks. he eventually lost, but no body knows how well he did
Now i am also a legendary tennis player. People has claimed i'm equal to WG but nobody knows if this is the case. Now i have defeated a great number of legendary players but not body has seen me doing it (we know it happened, just not the details). However i have destroyed whole teams of lesser players
however, i did lose one match to a minor league player, though admittedly one of the best (by minor league, imagine prince of tennis without steroids) and i stopped players

Now both me and WG have second in command who we play doubles with
WG's second in command is Rowin, who is possible on of the best tennis players in the world. While not as good as me and WG, Rowin dominates the championship for ages before finally losing after ages of being champion
Now i also have a second in command, who is also very good, and a third in command. However, while they are are good, the third in command was completly defeated because of a foolish mistake that cost him his career, while my second is always a great, but has never achieved a championship. Basiclly, while me and WG are close to equal, our seconds are not


Regardless, my point is "Legitimate threat is just lulzed", as you've been doing. Hence my comparing of y'all to drywall,
In my defense, i've based all of my points of facts that can be backed up and i've always challenged people to try to prove any points i have wrong


in terms of your capability to listen.
I've been thinking the same thing the whole time, but i back up my points. I belive i'm detecting a double standard here. Really, i felt the same way this whole time, so that is why i always back up my points


Personally I've learned tons about the Middle Earth-verse without having to waste my time reading Tolkien's godawful writing.
WTF? WTF? WTF?WTF? WTF?:smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek:

:smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious:
What in the name of all the gods are you saying?!?!?!?!?!

Are you telling me, that
1. You haven't even checked any of the scources i've produced, like ever. What is this? I check all of the links you produce and i am a diehard Warcraft fan, hell i even resorted to playing WOW to get info (shudder, never doing that again)
2. You accuse me of not listening (and being illiterate)when you haven't even checked the sources??? Dear gods, so much makes sense
3. Even if you find his writing god awful (funny that) has it occurred to you that checking the sources might be good. Hell, in the Link vs. Sephiroth i played Final Fantasy seven to gather evidence, suffering horrendous mental damage from teh god awful characters and plot. Then, out of my selfish dedication to the thread, i watched Advent's Children, and even finished Kindom hearts 1 and II, thus melting my brain to some of the most ahorrid media productions in this planet.


It's just, you know, been from Walking Target. Who is a darn reasonable fellow.
A cool as Walking Target is (and he is cool i must point out) he didn't act as a producer of points, he just acted a dude who double checked other people's claims. Example, i got the dates wrong about the war of elves and Sauron and he corrected me (I forgot yet another war) but he didn't produce the point itself, just double checked them


It's funny because it's not true, for you.
Because nothing proves that you are a more mature person providing a fair and balanced argument like saying "your wrong, i'm right, that is it", well balanced debate that is. Quite frankly, this strikes me as laughable, and ineffective. The irony and the humor is doubled when you've revealed that you haven't actually read the material in question, quite funny that.



Simple fact is, I have in fact been /reading/ the expositions on Sauron, et al.
But avoiding the book it seems, amusing that eh?
Sighting sources has a tendency to bring about many amazing results in terms of evidence.


I have also been listening to word of God from both sides, another thing I can safely say y'all haven't been doing
And i care? Why? Really why? If you claimed some of the points in the OP's first post are incorrect by all means do so. I haven't read it very carefully myself, but if i look closely and compare it to my books i'm sure i might find one mistake. However, yelling at us and saying were wrong (ironically, not proving your self any better) isn't an effective methods
Is there something wrong with the OP's post? I'd love to know



(Why is the Witch King in the header of a vs. Thread against a being that's !Fear? Tolkien himself effectively called him a wuss, on the cosmic scale, if you're !Fear)
1. Talk on that thread
2. I think it is rather debatable who is winning, my money is on the LK but hey.
3. Actually, he says that their greatest power is fear, not their only, and certainly never calls them a wuss
4. Also, the Wk has plenty of other powers that are revealed through the book




Saying it, and /acting/ like it? Two very different things.

Certainly, in terms of arguments this post can serve as a living example
But i'm confused because in the the texts (that you admittedly haven't read)
it is made rather clear that Sauron is a powerful being, but not the most powerful being in his world (the valar are greater than him at full power and there are quite a few of them)
On a same note, it has been made quite clear that Sauron is not a Cthulu like being, he share some traits but he is beatable, Cthulu to the best of my knowledge is not


I'm sorry, but are you trying to make comments on Sauron, whiole admitting you haven't read a single word of Tolkien true work?

In this order...
Puts things in perspective doesn't it?

Yes, yes I am. Tolkien is a godawful writer, and I have nothing to apologize for in not reading the Lord of the Rings.
A few points
1. I rather liked Tolkien, what makes him god awful, hell he invented a whole well devolped world complete with history and several whole new languages (and the cheap version taht Eragon does, real thing). What don't you liked about him
2. Even if you don't like it, has it occurred to you that doing the research prior to making claims might help your argument. I hate kindom hearts but i still used it to back up points
3. On second thought, you might want to start a separate thread on point one


Now, if the issue is speaking about something I didn't read firsthand, I /strongly/ suggest you do the same to everyone who defaced Sauron's opponents without actually reading/playing their original works, because it's a rather large number people doing so.

shrug, don't look at me
But the issue is speaking about something that you can't or won't back up while others are able to do so, it is there we have a problem


Especially Walking Target; He doesn't bother arguing for anything, just posts straight exposition on the LotR-verse in readable english; Further, since he doesn't have an emotional stake, I can count on him to provide a fair assesment based on all information at hand.
while Walking target is a cool dude, isn't relying on him as little silly, opposed to reading the material itself, no mater how bad you find it.
Also, you claim emotional stake invovled, just a few things
1. I think he actually stated he believed that Sauron would win in that thread, i don't know if that counts as emotional stake but...
2. So you don't listen to other people because you don't think they are emotionally un-bias enough to make a real option based on facts? Interesting
3. Hey, i talk english real good thank you very much.


Sort of an odd question, but are we supposed to take all the text in the LoTR and the Silmarillion as true?
Ummmm, yes, why wouldn't we? Unless it is conterdicted in some manner


I guess I'm asking if any of the stories were created as analogues to classical hyperbole. For example, it's pretty obvious that there weren't a million Persians at Thermopylae even if ancient texts claim there were.
But that is a historical example totally different story

(Now, the claim that Tolkien is a horrible writer, on the other hand... )
that seems to deserve its own thread, though i hope it is backed up

Just to rehash my original point if somebody wishes to start a vs. Sauron thread, then by all means please do, i'd be glad to partake, however please make it an interesting one
The LK vs. Sauron is a good example of a well balenced thread
So is Voldemort vs. Sauron
But something like Yoda vs. Sauron or Cthulu vs. Sauron, Raistiln vs. Sauron, Sora vs. Sauron or Bruce Lee vs. Sauron just isn't interesting, they are all too one sided (Bruce lee would win by the way). So if you want to make a vs. Sauron thread, or any vs. thread for that matter, make a balanced one, one that everybody can enjoy with a lot of over the top nitpicking



from,
EE

[GoC]

Tolkien's an excellent writer but the Silmarillion still sucks.:smallyuk:
A few questions:
Sauron turns ethereal how many times in the Silarillion?
Why was he unable to escape the godhound by either shapeshifting or going ethereal?
Would Warty Goblin, EE and you others head over to the Battle of the Earths thread to support Middle Earth? It's getting too little love...
It is said that Sauron can shapeshift into any living being. What forms has he assumed?
Does he assume just their physical shape (as wikipedia claims) or also gain their extra abilities and stats?
Can other Maiar shapeshift? What are the limits of their shapeshifting?
What are the abilities of the different mythical creatures in the Silmarillion and how do they compare to their D&D (and other media) counterparts?
What's the lowest CR (iow weakest) you can make Sauron while still being true to his proven abilities? The Witch King can be modeled fairly well with a D&D wraith but is estimated to be far more powerful.

btw: Rutee's definitely right about one thing. I learnt D&D from these forums and can now talk on exploits with the best of them despite never playing!:smallbiggrin:


Sort of an odd question, but are we supposed to take all the text in the LoTR and the Silmarillion as true?
Well in the Hobbit it's specificaly stated that Gandalf would have died to those goblins if the eagles hadn't arrived so yes I'd take it with a grain of salt. Can't say on the Silmarillion though...

[Winterwind]

that seems to deserve its own thread, though i hope it is backed upI doubt it would serve much purpose - I imagine the debate would go somewhat like this:

Us: "So, why don't you like Tolkien?"
Them: "Boring style, too long-winded, almost fell asleep in the first chapter."
Us: "WTF?!"

In other words, I have never heard any arguments against Tolkien which I could understand. I keep hearing that he is too descriptive, that the story progresses too slowly, that it is boring, and so forth. Okay... but I do not think so. At all. I don't even understand how one could arrive at this conclusion. At all. So this seems to be some irreconcillable difference in the mind-set - and which purpose could a discussion between people serve who cannot make the other side understand their point-of-view or their arguments?

As for whether the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings are to be taken for true, yes, definitely so. They are not historical propaganda or written to be heard by lords descendant from the winners of these battles; the LotR is a novel, the Silmarillion is, while written as a saga, still a reliable and truthful report. Only the Hobbit might be somewhat questionable, due to originally having been a children book and not entirely within the world's continuity.

[WalkingTarget]

Personally I've learned tons about the Middle Earth-verse without having to waste my time reading Tolkien's godawful writing. It's just, you know, been from Walking Target. Who is a darn reasonable fellow.


*feels vindicated* :smallsmile:

I try to be helpful. I don't personally find Tolkien's writing to be bad, but I totally understand why some people wouldn't like it and/or have trouble making their way through it. I have similar thoughts on Lovecraft (most of the time, his prose gets a bit too purple even for me sometimes).

Heck, I loved The Hobbit growing up, but the first time I tried reading LotR I fought to get through the first book and then put it down for several years before I tried again (and re-read it from the beginning, by that point I'd read all of Michael Crichton, Tom Clancy, and the Dune books, so I'd kind of got a running start the second go 'round).

The thing I love about Tolkien is the world/myth/language building that he does and I've spent a lot of spare time trying to wrap my mind around it (as I have with other mythologies, real and invented), but EE has a point that counting on me to provide universal knowledge is somewhat limiting. If you get something out of my posts that you otherwise wouldn't have known, then I've succeeded (even if my personal opinions/theories get mixed in occasionally).

Also EE, I think Rutee meant that I'd kept detached from the LK thread which I specified up front I didn't know enough about one of the combatants to really pick a side accurately (and I've come to agree with WinterWind after following what people have said about the LK). I was involved in the Voldemort thread rather vehemently for a while in the middle pages, though, but even then I tried to cite/back up my points of argument and tried not to cherry-pick my source material.

BTW, thanks Ramos for putting the initial list together here.

[EvilElitest]

Tolkien's an excellent writer but the Silmarillion still sucks.:smallyuk:

eh? While i found it dry, i could aprechate the writing


A few questions:
Sauron turns ethereal how many times in the Silarillion?
Why was he unable to escape the godhound by either shapeshifting or going ethereal?
Yes to both i belived, wh tried to turn into a phamton during the shapeshifting battle and he did escape the destruction of numenor while etheral, holding the one ring no doubt


Would Warty Goblin, EE and you others head over to the Battle of the Earths thread to support Middle Earth? It's getting too little love...
Hey hey hey, baltent lie, as of yet i haven't visted taht thread as of yet, though i might in the future. But aren't WG and the others allowed to argued their options, as you are certainly doing now


It is said that Sauron can shapeshift into any living being. What forms has he assumed?
Does he assume just their physical shape (as wikipedia claims) or also gain their extra abilities and stats?
of the creatures he assumed he more than assumes their states in fact he becomes greater than they are. The greatest werewolf in the middle earth was just killed and he turnes in an even larger and more powerful one, ditto on vampires. So he becomes greater than they were. I suspected there were limits, but walking tyarget put me down on that one


Can other Maiar shapeshift? What are the limits of their shapeshifting?
It seems to vary, some like Sauron, gandalf and saurman can assume humoniod forms with spirts inside, other can turn into animals, the weaker ones create one body form themselves that they are stuck in while others can create new bodies at will, but it seems to vary from maiar to maiar


What are the abilities of the different mythical creatures in the Silmarillion and how do they compare to their D&D (and other media) counterparts?
What's the lowest CR (iow weakest) you can make Sauron while still being true to his proven abilities? The Witch King can be modeled fairly well with a D&D wraith but is estimated to be far more powerful.
problem is taht both the WK and Sauron have powers far beyond D&D standards. Also wraith in ME aren't similer to wraiths in D&D



btw: Rutee's definitely right about one thing. I learnt D&D from these forums and can now talk on exploits with the best of them despite never playing!:smallbiggrin:
buty this is a D&D forum, so i would expect you to pick stuff up. And if you ever partook in a D&D debate on the gaming forums then i would expect you to lookup research to back up your points. Anyways, this isn't a Tolkien forum (thank god, that would be really boring) so picking up all you know from other people only works if they site their sources and you chekc them.
example, i claim that Sauron can Create mountains at will. Now lets say walking target isn't around and doesn't correct me how wold you be able to prove me wrong without the books? True realistically somebody would double check me but you really should at least check the other sides sources



Well in the Hobbit it's specificaly stated that Gandalf would have died to those goblins if the eagles hadn't arrived so yes I'd take it with a grain of salt. Can't say on the Silmarillion though...
well there were thousands of goblins so his body being destroyed is certainly a possiblity


I doubt it would serve much purpose - I imagine the debate would go somewhat like this:

Us: "So, why don't you like Tolkien?"
Them: "Boring style, too long-winded, almost fell asleep in the first chapter."
Us: "WTF?
i was hopoing for some professionalism accually, but maybe i expect to much

from,
EE

[Winterwind]

eh? While i found it dry, i could aprechate the writingPersonally, I found it even more moving than the LotR. It's so full of tragedy and loss on the one, and genuine heroism on the other hand...


It seems to vary, some like Sauron, gandalf and saurman can assume humoniod forms with spirts inside, other can turn into animals, the weaker ones create one body form themselves that they are stuck in while others can create new bodies at will, but it seems to vary from maiar to maiar

problem is taht both the WK and Sauron have powers far beyond D&D standards. Also wraith in ME aren't similer to wraiths in D&DIn my opinion, the best way to prove Sauron's power is via reference to Melian. She managed to cast a protective spell on a fairly large forest, which kept Morgoth and all his armies out of said forest. She was also just a Maiar, and presumably one of similar power as Sauron (can't check right now, don't have my Silmarillion with me currently). I think that's about the most impressive use of power we ever see from a Maiar.


i was hopoing for some professionalism accually, but maybe i expect to muchI did not mean that the other side would argue in an unprofessional way, actually; what I rather meant was that the whole argument would, ultimately, just become a matter of taste, and as we all know, taste is something one can't argue about.

[GoC]

Yes to both i belived, wh tried to turn into a phamton during the shapeshifting battle and he did escape the destruction of numenor while etheral, holding the one ring no doubt
After that answer I'm afraid I'm none the wiser. I believe you mean the answer to the first is 2, right?


]Hey hey hey, baltent lie, as of yet i haven't visted taht thread as of yet, though i might in the future. But aren't WG and the others allowed to argued their options, as you are certainly doing now
Umm...
Was this really adressed to me? *confused*


of the creatures he assumed he more than assumes their states in fact he becomes greater than they are.
So he assumes their forms but keeps his own ridiculously high stats...
What about Supernatural abilities?
What forms has he assumed.


problem is taht both the WK and Sauron have powers far beyond D&D standards. Also wraith in ME aren't similer to wraiths in D&D
D&D is very bad at modeling things from other universes but it's what I'm most familiar with.


I'm guessing you were a bit drunk because of your poor spelling and the fact that several of my questions remain unanswered.:smalltongue:

[EvilElitest]

Personally, I found it even more moving than the LotR. It's so full of tragedy and loss on the one, and genuine heroism on the other hand...

oh it was good, but i found the writing a bit to dry for my tasts i liked LOTRS and the hobbit more


In my opinion, the best way to prove Sauron's power is via reference to Melian. She managed to cast a protective spell on a fairly large forest, which kept Morgoth and all his armies out of said forest. She was also just a Maiar, and presumably one of similar power as Sauron (can't check right now, don't have my Silmarillion with me currently). I think that's about the most impressive use of power we ever see from a Maiar.

I think Sauron was the greatest Maiar accually or at least greater than Melian. If not, why wasn't he destroyed
He is greater than Tom Bombindil


I did not mean that the other side would argue in an unprofessional way, actually; what I rather meant was that the whole argument would, ultimately, just become a matter of taste, and as we all know, taste is something one can't argue about.
I was worried about both sides not arguing proffesionally accually but my point was even with personal tastes i think you need more detail than "I found it boring" and "Tolkien is the best" it would be more interesting.


After that answer I'm afraid I'm none the wiser. I believe you mean the answer to the first is 2, right?
what?
Quote:


Umm...
Was this really adressed to me? *confused*

you said that on the world thread WG, EE and others were acting in a fanboy manner and i was just pointing out that i haven't accually been on that thread


So he assumes their forms but keeps his own ridiculously high stats...
What about Supernatural abilities?
What forms has he assumed.

1. It seems to be that case
2. Well the demigod of werewolves was considered minor compared to him so he can assume the forms of maiar, ditto for vampires. From memory i recall he can assume giant animals, evil beasts, demi gods, humoiniods (elves and whatnot) giant flaming warrior (his second age form), werewolf, vampire, ect.

D&D is very bad at modeling things from other universes but it's what I'm most familiar with.
knowing D&D isn't the best systom for these things as LOTRS was designed for gaming i don't think that would be a good idea


I'm guessing you were a bit drunk because of your poor spelling and the fact that several of my questions remain unanswered.

Ok down right offensive
1. what questions haven't i adressed
2. i admit to bad spelling (my spell check is broken) but no reason to insult me
3. I don't drink
4. You still haven't responded to some of my questions
5. I'm just going to make this clear, i can barely understand you most of the time



from,
EE

[Rutee]

If I may defend myself:

1) On the Sauron vs. Voldemort thread I was familiar enough with both sources that I felt I knew both sides' capabilities well enough. I was wrong on some stuff and right on other stuff, which is to be expected when working with multiple multi-hundred page works. I have never claimed infaliability.

2) On the Sauron vs. Lich King thread, I admitted from the beginning that I didn't know Warcraft lore that well. However I frequently asked for information from those who know these things, and I also did a substantial amount of research on WoWwiki on my own. In short I admitted my ignorance and did my best to correct it as I went along. No, I did not go back and play WCIII or take out a WoW subscription due to time concerns and dislike for the gameplay, but I did make an effort to use information as well as I could. If I was extrapolating from source material I said so and provided supporting evidence, and have backed down on points once provided with sufficient evidence.
You were /taking your speculation as canon/. It took you a long, long time, throughout /both threads/, to admit that your "all evil serves him" was your own invention, not a canon statement. Which is frankly ludicrous; If Morgoth is Satan, then he /might/ be able to make such a claim, but Sauron was his lesser.



Meh, debatable, but both are to vauge to really understand, though it is worth noting that Sargeras only took over worlds while Morgoth created them, and that Sargeras was defeated by mortals while Morgoth at his weakest needed a whole pantheon of gods plus two continents worth of extremly powerful elves along with the greatest men, all the dwarves and ents to bring him down. But close enough
The Guardian of Tirisfal, whom is the closest you can call to a mortal who defeated Sargeras, isn't really mortal, so your point is flawed from its conception; Well, I suppose it is anyway; Sargeras let her win. Also, Sargeras didn't create worlds, but /that wasn't his job/. He was a member of a pantheon; His /equals/ created worlds, he guarded them from what amounts to the Proto-Burning Legion. I don't think it was outside his capabilities, but it was certainly outside his job description.


1. You haven't even checked any of the scources i've produced, like ever. What is this? I check all of the links you produce and i am a diehard Warcraft fan, hell i even resorted to playing WOW to get info (shudder, never doing that again)
2. You accuse me of not listening (and being illiterate)when you haven't even
1. I do in fact read your sources.. when they're not the book.
2. You click on them, I can believe; You have shown demonstrable problems in /reading/ them, however, such as missing the entire point behind a link (Most Notably, missing several times in a row that Death Knights all have Runeblades, and thus, one can surmise that even if Frostmourne wasn't made by Ner'Zhul, he has access to a source of Runeblade production. Assuming he's not the one making them, anyway)
3. "I call them as I see them; I'm a whale biologist"


btw: Rutee's definitely right about one thing. I learnt D&D from these forums and can now talk on exploits with the best of them despite never playing!
Thank you. I won't deny that it's much better to have the Source Material on hand, but what, y'all expect me to spend good money on a debate on the internets? Puh-lease. I don't even buy headsets for MMOs, and that not only has a tangible benefit, but is for something I actually like. Spending money on books I already know I don't like? Not gonna happen.


I did not mean that the other side would argue in an unprofessional way, actually; what I rather meant was that the whole argument would, ultimately, just become a matter of taste, and as we all know, taste is something one can't argue about.
Not usefully, no.


As for whether the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings are to be taken for true, yes, definitely so. They are not historical propaganda or written to be heard by lords descendant from the winners of these battles; the LotR is a novel, the Silmarillion is, while written as a saga, still a reliable and truthful report.
Actually, someone else (I believe his name is Executor?) provided a valid point; One can't take anything written that poetically as absolute, until it's run through a strainer of sorts. For instance, the 'indestructable' walls of Minas Tirith were, until the Greco/Roman thread, taken as absolute proof against an invasion (Though, mercifully, not as proof against long term invasion). However, not only was it pointed out that there was no explanation, and that it could have simply meant "Impossible to destroy with currently existing technology", it was shown that siege techniques of the time only rarely accounted for actual destruction of the walls, and thus, wall strength was less then relevant.


3. Even if you find his writing god awful (funny that) has it occurred to you that checking the sources might be good. Hell, in the Link vs. Sephiroth i played Final Fantasy seven to gather evidence, suffering horrendous mental damage from teh god awful characters and plot. Then, out of my selfish dedication to the thread, i watched Advent's Children, and even finished Kindom hearts 1 and II, thus melting my brain to some of the most ahorrid media productions in this planet.
You know, it's really internet popular to call all of those things garbage, but that doesn't make it so. Especially not KH2; KH2 was, barring the MAtrix games (Which, in the grand tradition of movie games, average to awful), the only source of well-done wirefu stunts in video games at the time of its production. Unless you're some sort of communist who hates Wirefu, or who can't stand Disney (Presumably, some sort of desire to not be seen as childish, but I don't really know you well enough to analyze you, if I were of the proper inclination to do so anyway), there's quite literally no reason to call any of those games bad (unless you basically feel all Console RPGs are bad, which is not terribly uncommon on boards dedicated to a tabletop RPG or anything related to one). FFVII's greatest flaw, aside from a fairly emo Heroic BSOD moment, is that it spawned really bad copycats, and yes, those really bad copycats are awful. But why hold that against the source material and not the copycats?

Incidentally, I must ponder how you ever came to the conclusion of Link, unless either Twilight Princess Link is incredibly mobile compared to his predecessors (I still don't have a Wii), or you mean Zelda 2 Link. Other links are demonstrably less mobile then KH2 Sora (Zelda 2 Link has Jump, which I believe should grant 'enough' mobility), and KH2 Sora has issues properly dodging everything Sephiroth can do. Given that Link is the Light-n'-speedy archetype to begin with, and assuming no Potion spam (And assuming, thusly, no Elixirs for Sephy), I literally don't see how it's possible for him to win when he can't rely on his only real defense. But go ahead and PM that to me, it doesn't need to be here.


3. Actually, he says that their greatest power is fear, not their only, and certainly never calls them a wuss
"They have no great physical power against those who are fearless" were his exact words. so I would have to say that yes, if you're !Fear, you've got nothing to worry about. Assuming you have great physical power. Wuss on the cosmic scale. (Not necessarily complete wuss, but not something you worry about if you're /on/ the cosmic scale and !Fear)


problem is taht both the WK and Sauron have powers far beyond D&D standards. Also wraith in ME aren't similer to wraiths in D&D
WK and Sauron have powers well within DnD standards. It's just that the system for setting up Epic stuff are just.. well, to say the least, I can't stand the system for Epic Levels in DnD.

Sauron's pretty easy to figure out in Exalted though; He's just not a very good threat in Creation. Maybe an Ess 7 Spirit/God. He'd get smoked by Solar Perfects, Siddie Near Perfects, etc. But that is a damn high powerred world, so it's to be expected.


Because nothing proves that you are a more mature person providing a fair and balanced argument like saying "your wrong, i'm right, that is it", well balanced debate that is. Quite frankly, this strikes me as laughable, and ineffective. The irony and the humor is doubled when you've revealed that you haven't actually read the material in question, quite funny that.

There's no irony; I immediately provide the explanation for it, as opposed to it actually being "I'm right haha". You just like to hear yourself talk, don't you? Now, if you'd like me to go and humiliate you by finding all the points you deliberately misrepresented (Because there's no way you could have misunderstood those points on accident) for the sake of your own argument, and all your "Haha, it's really bad strategy to ignore people who don't even try to debate honestly" posts, I can do that, but I don't think you'd like that.


So if you want to make a vs. Sauron thread, or any vs. thread for that matter, make a balanced one, one that everybody can enjoy with a lot of over the top nitpicking

I can agree with that, yeah. That's why I was like "WTF Cthulhu!? We already know he wins" At least Voldemort vs. Sauron, while not a legitimate threat, had a legitimate line of reasoning to believe so. A debunked line, sure, but a legitimate one.

[GoC]

what?
How many times does Sauron turn ethereal. 2 times, right?
Why was he unable to escape by turning ethereal?
An extra question:
Couldn't Sauron have turned into a flea to escape?


you said that on the world thread WG, EE and others were acting in a fanboy manner and i was just pointing out that i haven't accually been on that thread
...
My turn:
What?:smallconfused:
I asked if you guys could come over to that thread to support Middle Earth because there aren't any Middle Earth supporters there.


2. Well the demigod of werewolves was considered minor compared to him so he can assume the forms of maiar, ditto for vampires. From memory i recall he can assume giant animals, evil beasts, demi gods, humoiniods (elves and whatnot) giant flaming warrior (his second age form), werewolf, vampire, ect.
Cool.
Which evil beasts? Fell beasts? Others?


knowing D&D isn't the best systom for these things as LOTRS was designed for gaming i don't think that would be a good idea
Umm... yeah that's what I just said... *confused*


Ok down right offensive
1. what questions haven't i adressed
2. i admit to bad spelling (my spell check is broken) but no reason to insult me
3. I don't drink
4. You still haven't responded to some of my questions
5. I'm just going to make this clear, i can barely understand you most of the time
1. Well at the time you hadn't addressed:

Sauron turns ethereal how many times in the Silarillion?
Why was he unable to escape the godhound by either shapeshifting or going ethereal?
It is said that Sauron can shapeshift into any living being. What forms has he assumed?
2. I had no intention whatsoever of being insulting.
3. Lot's of people drink at christmas so I assumed you would too and that that was the reason for missing questions and misunderstandings.
4. Now I'm REALLY confused. Which questions?
5. Same thing here. It's as though we're speaking completely different languages...:smallconfused:
Maybe we can get a translator? Winterwind perhaps?

[Rutee]

5. Same thing here. It's as though we're speaking completely different languages...:smallconfused:
Maybe we can get a translator? Winterwind perhaps?

Sorta. He can and will deliberately misinterpret you. I don't know why. Maybe you're right, and English isn't his first language. It's not like there's any shame in /that/.

[GoC]

Sorta. He can and will deliberately misinterpret you. Maybe you're right, and English isn't his first language. It's not like there's any shame in /that/.

That would explain a heck of a lot...
And I agree that WG often forgets to mark speculation or interpretations as such but don't we all?

EDIT: I know I have and seriously pissed off EE doing it.:smalltongue:

EDIT2:

I won't deny that it's much better to have the Source Material on hand, but what, y'all expect me to spend good money on a debate on the internets? Puh-lease.
Depending on which country you live in you could just grab a copy from P-Bay for reference purposes (it's legal were I live but not in the US for instance).

[Rutee]

I actually meant WG with that, since he manages to be taken more seriously, at least in my view, but if EE does it (Not confirming or denying it), it wouldn't surprise me. And no, not all of us do so. When I had primary/secondary source material next to me, I never hesitated to properly clarify which was primary/secondary, which was speculation. Usually with language like "We can assume" or things like that. What I didn't have was a proper disclaimer for "If I don't specifically say this is from source Z, this is probably speculation", though.


Depending on which country you live in you could just grab a copy from P-Bay for reference purposes (it's legal were I live but not in the US for instance).
It's not legal here, and I have a sincere mental block around torrenting books at any rate. When it's public domain and is on project gutenberg, we'll talk.

[GoC]

It's not legal here, and I have a sincere mental block around torrenting books at any rate. When it's public domain and is on project gutenberg, we'll talk.

I sincerely hope you don't live in a country were copyright extends 120 years after the death of the author then.:smalltongue:

[Poison_Fish]

Sauron's pretty easy to figure out in Exalted though; He's just not a very good threat in Creation. Maybe an Ess 7 Spirit/God. He'd get smoked by Solar Perfects, Siddie Near Perfects, etc. But that is a damn high powerred world, so it's to be expected.

I was actually thinking on that a few nights ago (I still lurk on the LK thread, I just don't feel it prudent to continue debating :0 ).

At the very basic, even a new zenith anima flaring would zap Sauron, or at the very least, light the nazgul in holy fire. Which brings up a second question. With exalted, the undead can feel a semi-fear thanks to zeniths. Would it stand to reason that a solar cast zenith would make the fear giving nazgul a run for their money when subject to holy fear?

At best, I always thought Sauron to be a 3rd circle demon rather then a spirit or god, they fall under similar functionality, but with all this objective "evilness" around, I figured that a lot of the solar's anti-demon/undead powers would work against him, rather then most gods. Then again, I get a rather amusing image of an abyssal munching on Sauron's eye with their spirit eating charms. I also, somehow, get an amusing image of Lookshy accidentally wandering into middle earth.

Then again, I shouldn't even bring Exalted into this. Not much can eventually stand up against a solar's power, save for the great curse.

/end thread derailment

[Winterwind]

Maybe we can get a translator? Winterwind perhaps?Sorry. Don't feel like going over all these long posts again to sort out whatever misunderstandings might have occured, or which questions remained unanswered. :smallwink:

[EvilElitest]

You were /taking your speculation as canon/. It took you a long, long time, throughout /both threads/, to admit that your "all evil serves him" was your own invention, not a canon statement. Which is frankly ludicrous;

Ah, i love inaccurate statments
Accually, your confusing me with WG a few times there, remember he is the nice one. WG came up with the "All evil serves sauron" theory, which seems to be true in LOTRS (because all evil deeds do accually serve him (not really ludicrous) but i don't know if that is by magic or design.
I was the one who came up with the bending evil to his will theory
Also, what speculation have 'I' not backed up?


If Morgoth is Satan, then he /might/ be able to make such a claim, but Sauron was his lesser.
But lesser in comparasion, he is still certainly a devil himself, like Beezalabub to Satan


The Guardian of Tirisfal, whom is the closest you can call to a mortal who defeated Sargeras, isn't really mortal, so your point is flawed from its conception.
They aren't immortail certainily a few have died, so they are mortal compared to Sargeras

Also, Sargeras didn't create worlds, but /that wasn't his job/. He was a member of a pantheon; His /equals/ created worlds, he guarded them from what amounts to the Proto-Burning Legion. I don't think it was outside his capabilities, but it was certainly outside his job description.

to vauge to tell it seems, i was under the impression the Titans only enforced the law of their worlds but didn't accually create them (can they create life?}


1. I do in fact read your sources.. when they're not the book.
2. You click on them, I can believe; You have shown demonstrable problems in /reading/ them, however, such as missing the entire point behind a link (Most Notably, missing several times in a row that Death Knights all have Runeblades, and thus, one can surmise that even if Frostmourne wasn't made by Ner'Zhul, he has access to a source of Runeblade production. Assuming he's not the one making them, anyway)
3. "I call them as I see them; I'm a whale biologist"

1. But considering LOTRS' primary source is the book which i belive is quite easy to obtain at your local libery
2. Accually my point was that while he can create runeplades it says nothing aobut anti undead or holy powers (we have seen no evidence of his using ether let alone creating) so that is my interpretion not my lack of sources
3.WTF? i don't even want to know

Thank you. I won't deny that it's much better to have the Source Material on hand, but what, y'all expect me to spend good money on a debate on the internets? Puh-lease. I don't even buy headsets for MMOs, and that not only has a tangible benefit, but is for something I actually like. Spending money on books I already know I don't like? Not gonna happen.

ummmm, liberaries? That is where i get most of my sources. Hell, LOTRS very pouplar you could buy it cheap at yard sale i imagine. Also if you don't have the source material how can you expect even prove other people wrong


Not usefully, no.
isn't that what we have writing standards for? This ecapt same thing


Actually, someone else (I believe his name is Executor?) provided a valid point; One can't take anything written that poetically as absolute, until it's run through a strainer of sorts. For instance, the 'indestructable' walls of Minas Tirith were, until the Greco/Roman thread, taken as absolute proof against an invasion (Though, mercifully, not as proof against long term invasion).
if something contradicts within source material. For example in the book aragorn states that Gnadalf is dead and we find this not to be the case later, so it isn't true. Hoever, if something is not proven wrong than you saying "nope it is wrong" isn't going to pull it


However, not only was it pointed out that there was no explanation, and that it could have simply meant "Impossible to destroy with currently existing technology", it was shown that siege techniques of the time only rarely accounted for actual destruction of the walls, and thus, wall strength was less then relevant.

so your taking speculation (unfounded i might add) as cannon. Interesting double standard that



You know, it's really internet popular to call all of those things garbage,
internet popular? i don't give a damn on what is internet says is pouplar, i dislike them because they are awful, ahorrid characters, unrealistic in the worst sense, boring, badly thought out, don't make sense, illogical, badly written, awful voice actors, bad main character, hell i could start a thread in the video game section to list my complaints


but that doesn't make it so.
Same could be said of Tolkien i find

Especially not KH2; KH2 was, barring the MAtrix games (Which, in the grand tradition of movie games, average to awful), the only source of well-done wirefu stunts in video games at the time of its production.
your joking me right? I found legend of zelda's stunts more impressive and that isn't saying much


Unless you're some sort of communist who hates Wirefu,
..........yeah
yeah, just yeah
I love your rutuee, the more you say stuff like this the better i look compared to that. Really communist because i dislike a game you enjoy? Mcathyism is out girl, calling things you dislike communist and leaving it at that doesn't cut it anymore, amuzing as it is


or who can't stand Disney (Presumably, some sort of desire to not be seen as childish, but I don't really know you well enough to analyze you, if I were of the proper inclination to do so anyway)
oh it is possible i don't like more Disney (or square for that matter FF10 was awful) products based on the fact that most of their products, those games included aren't that good, and by not good i mean god awful


there's quite literally no reason to call any of those games bad
other than plot, gameplay, characters, script, story line, artwork, character devolpment, character design, humor, suspense, and Gummi ships no, no there isn't. You do realize that other can not like the game and suppor their reasons without being a communist or childish

Unless Rutee> critic's options of course


unless you basically feel all Console RPGs are bad, which is not terribly uncommon on boards dedicated to a tabletop RPG or anything related to one).
not really, i just didn't like those games


FFVII's greatest flaw, aside from a fairly emo Heroic BSOD moment, is that it spawned really bad copycats, and yes, those really bad copycats are awful. But why hold that against the source material and not the copycats?

1. Replace "fairly" with "over the top" and "moment" with "Constent whining throughout the story"
2. Because i find the source material almost as bad as the copycats.



Incidentally, I must ponder how you ever came to the conclusion of Link, unless either Twilight Princess Link is incredibly mobile compared to his predecessors (I still don't have a Wii), or you mean Zelda 2 Link. Other links are demonstrably less mobile then KH2 Sora (Zelda 2 Link has Jump, which I believe should grant 'enough' mobility), and KH2 Sora has issues properly dodging everything Sephiroth can do. Given that Link is the Light-n'-speedy archetype to begin with, and assuming no Potion spam (And assuming, thusly, no Elixirs for Sephy), I literally don't see how it's possible for him to win when he can't rely on his only real defense. But go ahead and PM that to me, it doesn't need to be here.

*breaks down and cries*
Look, i can't, not because i don't know or can't back up my points, because the Link vs. Seph thread was 53 pages long before victory was declared. going through that again would just cause to much pain. I'd suggest reading the thread but that would destroy your brain sadly, so yes, please PM me for details.

Sauron vs. Link, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

"They have no great physical power against those who are fearless" were his exact words. so I would have to say that yes, if you're !Fear, you've got nothing to worry about. Assuming you have great physical power. Wuss on the cosmic scale. (Not necessarily complete wuss, but not something you worry about if you're /on/ the cosmic scale and !Fear)
Ah but thsoe were in the letters of Tolkien (also can i see that source i don't own that) which is of debatable cannon
Bear in mind, that isn't the case as the WK has been proven to be an extremly skilled melee fighter even when his fear isn't being used


There's no irony;
Why am i laughing so hard then eh?

I immediately provide the explanation for it, as opposed to it actually being "I'm right haha".
Except it tends to be "Haha, i super right" so just upping the scales. Source materials work wonders

You just like to hear yourself talk, don't you?
well they don't call me HappyKindLovingElitest do they?

Now, if you'd like me to go and humiliate you by finding all the points you deliberately misrepresented
Just a word of advice, threats have to be scary for them to work. Just by the by:smallwink: yawn, humilation, blackmail, threats been there done that, not scary anymore

(Because there's no way you could have misunderstood those points on accident)
yes, the only ways that could work would be you accually not stating your point clearly, and we all know that is impossible


for the sake of your own argument, and all your "Haha, it's really bad strategy to ignore people who don't even try to debate honestly" posts,
Temper tempter, sombody sounds bitter
Just to point this out, even if is wasn't debatabing honestly (untrue but still) ignoring me would be a bad idea. Back on topic, the fact you call me dishonest and call me illeterate and a communist if certainly laughable


I can do that, but I don't think you'd like that.

Ineffecive threats, but still, the only thing i wouldn't like is having to go through my many, many,many posts and counter everything your say, so i'd much rather you not

I can agree with that, yeah. That's why I was like "WTF Cthulhu!? We already know he wins" At least Voldemort vs. Sauron, while not a legitimate threat, had a legitimate line of reasoning to believe so. A debunked line, sure, but a legitimate one.
Exactly, the only Sauron can beat Cthulhu is by ignoring all the cannon material on Cthulhu
Now Sauron vs. LK is interesting because both are extremly powerful
Sauron vs. Kel'Jaeden would have been interesting, but at this point i've had enogh of Warcraft vs. middle earth
Sauron vs. Link could be amuzing, but i'm afraid of that thread
Sauron vs. say, Kefka isn't interseting because Kefka is too powerful


How many times does Sauron turn ethereal. 2 times, right?
Why was he unable to escape by turning ethereal?
An extra question:
Couldn't Sauron have turned into a flea to escape?

3 times, i forgot the third age
excaped from what? do you mean from the breaking of the world, because if that is the case then yes, he did escape that way
If you mean from the God of Hounds, it was because that Dog could only loses to one particualar being, and Sauron was not it. Also one it bit onto something, not matter what sauron turned into he still hung on
...

My turn:
What?
I asked if you guys could come over to that thread to support Middle Earth because there aren't any Middle Earth supporters there.
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm:smalleek:
hids
My bad, i honestly read that wrong, i though you said Why did you guys head over to the world thread, it is getting too much love
Well now that i'm awake, i'm sorry for not understanding


Cool.
Which evil beasts? Fell beasts? Others?
Here is hte problem, tolkien just said all manner of evil beasts, vampires, wargs, Werewovles, Wraith, Vampire, Great Serpent (possible dragon) were some but he also turned into many other things. To vauge, no limits were established, but i don't think he can turn into a balrog


Umm... yeah that's what I just said... *confused*
i'm agreeing with you
damn, post to long, be right there
from
EE

[EvilElitest]

back just a second
1. Alright, in the siarillon two times, two more (though one is when the ring is destroyed) in the third age are times when Sauron is recoreded of turning ethereal.
2. Thank you very much
3. Alright, in this area people don't drink at christmas so it came off as strange
4. My responses, oh never find
5. Nah, aint worth it, i think we should just make a points more clear because we both seem to be jumping to conclusion
niffty avater by the way

Sorta. He can and will deliberately misinterpret you. I don't know why. Maybe you're right, and English isn't his first language. It's not like there's any shame in /that/
Pot calling the kettle black i see, something never change (for the record i already told you, english is my first language, only slightly hampered by a southern/Brooklin accent)
But no i don't deliberately misinterpret anyone, i might make mistakes in read as i often respond to a massive amount of posts so i make mistakes but i always make sure that my manner of debating isnt undershanded
the irony of course is that i notice a lot of my points go un answered

calling me a communist on the other hand, bad form that

That would explain a heck of a lot..
don't listen to Rutee, flaming me seems to be a pasttime


And I agree that WG often forgets to mark speculation or interpretations as such but don't we all?

EDIT: I know I have and seriously pissed off EE doing it.


you you haven't, i just stay awake for hours on end with dep set range:smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious:

I'm calm, i'm calm, yeah, i'm a happy person:smallwink:


I was actually thinking on that a few nights ago (I still lurk on the LK thread, I just don't feel it prudent to continue debating :0 ).

Isn't it dead at this point?


At best, I always thought Sauron to be a 3rd circle demon rather then a spirit or god,
really varies on source i'm afraind, in ME Sauron is second circle evil, bordering first
Resond to you'all later, i'm watching Snatch at the moment



from,
EE

[Poison_Fish]

Isn't it dead at this point?


really varies on source i'm afraind, in ME Sauron is second circle evil, bordering first

It is dead at this point, yes. That doesn't detract me from lurking like the loch ness the past few weeks.

I'm talking about the Exalted comparison, which I'm not sure you understand. Though, using that same idea, Sauron as a first circle demon would be pretty amusing. Exalted Demon link (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php/Demon)

[EvilElitest]

It is dead at this point, yes. That doesn't detract me from lurking like the loch ness the past few weeks.

I'm talking about the Exalted comparison, which I'm not sure you understand. Though, using that same idea, Sauron as a first circle demon would be pretty amusing. Exalted Demon link (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php/Demon)
1.well have fun lurking, good luck to you
2. get back to you on that
from,
EE

[GoC]

What about Granny Weatherfax vs. Sauron?
Ol' Granny is immune to pretty much anything affecting mind or soul and has similarily vague shapeshifting powers.

[EvilElitest]

What about Granny Weatherfax vs. Sauron?
Ol' Granny is immune to pretty much anything affecting mind or soul and has similarily vague shapeshifting powers.

i don't know anything about granny
from,
EE

[WalkingTarget]

I love your rutuee, the more you say stuff like this the better i look compared to that. Really communist because i dislike a game you enjoy? Mcathyism is out girl, calling things you dislike communist and leaving it at that doesn't cut it anymore, amuzing as it is

"Some sort of communist" and similar phrases get used frequently (at least in my opinion) in a jocular way as a parody of McCarthyism (implying that if you don't think like I do then you're unAmerican even if the topic under discussion isn't even remotely related to baseball, mom, and apple pie). I took Rutee's comment as a joke and smiled to myself as I recall past glories in Paranoia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_%28role-playing_game%29) (You're not a dirty commie, are you, Citizen?). Unless I'm completely misreading her post, the wire-fu comment was neither a personal attack nor an actual accusation of communism.


Ah but thsoe were in the letters of Tolkien (also can i see that source i don't own that) which is of debatable cannon
Bear in mind, that isn't the case as the WK has been proven to be an extremly skilled melee fighter even when his fear isn't being used

Muahahaha! I have recently acquired a copy of his collected letters (haven't had a chance to do more than leaf through it so far, sadly, but I'll get to it). I would count his letters as canon at least where there's not a direct contradiction with the published material (i.e. use it to clarify points not otherwise covered in the source text). In the days before internet forums and massive fantasy/sci-fi conventions with Q&A sessions, if you were a reader who wanted to ask a question of an author, you wrote him/her a letter. If you'd accept interview questions answered by George Lucas or J.K. Rowling on obscure points from Star Wars or Harry Potter then the same should hold for Tolkien.


Exactly, the only Sauron can beat Cthulhu is by ignoring all the cannon material on Cthulhu

I actually contest that this is a very hard thing to debate just due to the lack of canon material on Cthulhu as he only shows up in one (1) Lovecraft story (with an honorable mention in a few more). We know what he looks like (in our 3 dimensions at least), we know he's not entirely made of matter as we understand it, we know that the Great Old Ones are beyond morality (i.e. "good" and "evil" don't apply), we know that he's trapped until the "stars are right", we know that his dreams/thoughts can influence "sensitive" people, and we know that he took a boat to the head without slowing him down appreciably. Unless you're counting RPG rulebooks as canon, we don't actually have much to go on for his actual abilities. However, it's fun to take the "Lovecraftian entities tear other things to shreds" position in general, but it's more from entertainment value than through logical deduction.


Here is hte problem, tolkien just said all manner of evil beasts, vampires, wargs, Werewovles, Wraith, Vampire, Great Serpent (possible dragon) were some but he also turned into many other things. To vauge, no limits were established, but i don't think he can turn into a balrog

Usually, when Tolkien mentions a "great serpent" he is talking about a dragon. As for Balrogs, that's one of the points I plan on looking into later. Dragons and Balrogs were odd discrepancies in Tolkien; it seems that he kept going back and forth as to whether they were fallen Maiar (like Sauron) or created beings (like orcs and trolls, ignoring the further question of whether they were "created" or were just twisted/corrupted elves or ents). The "final" version that Christopher Tolkien published in the Silmarillion indicates that Balrogs are maiar, but dragons were creatures, but Christopher has indicated in later publications his regret in some of his editorial choices, so this may be a reason for some of the oddities while discussing them (i.e. Balrogs seem to be "killable" which doesn't really fit with their origins as maiar). Sauron is the most powerful maia servant of Morgoth, but he's a smith while the "maiar" version of Balrogs were spirits of destructive fire. It's possible that he could look like them, but his strengths are in different areas (he's a better general than front line soldier).

[GoC]

Your problem EE is that instead of examining someone's position and finding out how they came to that erroneous conclusion you just throw walls of text backing up your opinion at them until they give in. The latter might work but the former is more efficient and more fun for all concerned.

[EvilElitest]

"Some sort of communist" and similar phrases get used frequently (at least in my opinion) in a jocular way as a parody of McCarthyism (implying that if you don't think like I do then you're unAmerican even if the topic under discussion isn't even remotely related to baseball, mom, and apple pie).

However, sarcasm on the internet is rather infamous for not looking the way as intented, it could easlily be seen ether way, i'm basing my option on this statment combined with hte rest of the paragraph, so it varies. If she said communits with a :smallbiggrin: or a:smallwink: it would make sense, but as of such she could be quite serious



I took Rutee's comment as a joke and smiled to myself as I recall past glories in Paranoia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_%28role-playing_game%29) (You're not a dirty commie, are you, Citizen?). Unless I'm completely misreading her post, the wire-fu comment was neither a personal attack nor an actual accusation of communism.
Ah but you have played paronidia and thus would be aware of that subtext while i haven't and Rutte might have not



Muahahaha! I have recently acquired a copy of his collected letters (haven't had a chance to do more than leaf through it so far, sadly, but I'll get to it). I would count his letters as canon at least where there's not a direct contradiction with the published material (i.e. use it to clarify points not otherwise covered in the source text).
1. Horray, Walking target is the all poweful person with the books
2. Fair enough But the quote in question (is it accurate might i ask?) is in direct contradiction with source material is my main poinit

In the days before internet forums and massive fantasy/sci-fi conventions with Q&A sessions, if you were a reader who wanted to ask a question of an author, you wrote him/her a letter. If you'd accept interview questions answered by George Lucas or J.K. Rowling on obscure points from Star Wars or Harry Potter then the same should hold for Tolkien.

well my argument was that the letters were more like notes than real letters (remember, he died before he could make up his mind about the nature of his world) but ok


I actually contest that this is a very hard thing to debate just due to the lack of canon material on Cthulhu as he only shows up in one (1) Lovecraft story (with an honorable mention in a few more). We know what he looks like (in our 3 dimensions at least), we know he's not entirely made of matter as we understand it, we know that the Great Old Ones are beyond morality (i.e. "good" and "evil" don't apply), we know that he's trapped until the "stars are right", we know that his dreams/thoughts can influence "sensitive" people, and we know that he took a boat to the head without slowing him down appreciably. Unless you're counting RPG rulebooks as canon, we don't actually have much to go on for his actual abilities. However, it's fun to take the "Lovecraftian entities tear other things to shreds" position in general, but it's more from entertainment value than through logical deduction.


But aren't elder evil unable to be defeated in any manner i belive


Usually, when Tolkien mentions a "great serpent" he is talking about a dragon. As for Balrogs, that's one of the points I plan on looking into later. Dragons and Balrogs were odd discrepancies in Tolkien; it seems that he kept going back and forth as to whether they were fallen Maiar (like Sauron) or created beings (like orcs and trolls, ignoring the further question of whether they were "created" or were just twisted/corrupted elves or ents). The "final" version that Christopher Tolkien published in the Silmarillion indicates that Balrogs are maiar, but dragons were creatures, but Christopher has indicated in later publications his regret in some of his editorial choices, so this may be a reason for some of the oddities while discussing them (i.e. Balrogs seem to be "killable" which doesn't really fit with their origins as maiar). Sauron is the most powerful maia servant of Morgoth, but he's a smith while the "maiar" version of Balrogs were spirits of destructive fire. It's possible that he could look like them, but his strengths are in different areas (he's a better general than front line soldier).

The common idea seems to be Balrogs were corrupted Maiar while Dragons were created, orcs came from elves ect, at least that is the more clear cut version


Your problem EE is that instead of examining someone's position and finding out how they came to that erroneous conclusion
If the points are backed up and/or well explained and thought out (the way Wlaking Target, WG, Rowan, and I am undead) tend to do then i do concend to points, however there needs to be an explaintion

you just throw walls of text backing up your opinion at them until they give in. The latter might work but the former is more efficient and more fun for all concerned
wall of text based after points. I don't argue things i can't back up
from,
EE

[GoC]

If the points are backed up and/or well explained and thought out (the way Wlaking Target, WG, Rowan, and I am undead) tend to do then i do concend to points, however there needs to be an explaintion

wall of text based after points. I don't argue things i can't back up
from,
EE
That's true but what does conceding points have to do with it?
I said that sometimes it would be quicker and less stressful to try and understand where the other person went wrong so you can point it out to them, then to give lots of arguments backing up your statement(s). Generaly they will have just one or two premises incorrect. (not counting side issues)

Perhaps an example would help:
In one of the vs. Sauron threads we ended up getting nowhere after several pages of discussion then Ramos came in and quietly pointed out that one of my assumptions was incorrect.
If he had come in sooner then much less time would have been wasted and the situation wouldn't have gotten as bad as it did.

[Winterwind]

i don't know anything about grannyThe most legendary witch on Terry Pratchett's Discworld.

I kinda dislike making characters from serious stories face characters from comedic ones; it just doesn't feel right. Now, as for the contest in question... I have read maybe about ten Discworld novels, so I'm far from being an expert, but as far as I recall she relies almost solely on worldy experience, psychology, her infamous image and stubbornness; and while she uses magic every now and then, I don't recall her ever doing anything all that impressive with it. Of course, she is so infamous and stubborn, that pretty much any creature on Discworld would flee in panic; but that's part of what makes her character so funny. Sauron and the Nazgul would not have to follow comedy rules, presumably, and hence not be impressed in the slightest; and what would she do then?


You're not a dirty commie, are you, Citizen? No. Why do you ask that? Are you trying to divert our attention from yourself in some laughable and chanceless plot to destroy Friend Computer? :smallmad: *takes out melee weapon with 100 metres kill-everything-horribly-radius* Now, while it would sure be nice to know what the hell this thing does (but my security clearance doesn't allow me to look up the manual), the guys from the Research Department told me it kills people! Die, commie! :smallfurious: Also, Friend Computer wishes you a nice day! :smallsmile:

(Jeez, ya gotta love Paranoia! :smallbiggrin: )


I actually contest that this is a very hard thing to debate just due to the lack of canon material on Cthulhu as he only shows up in one (1) Lovecraft story (with an honorable mention in a few more). We know what he looks like (in our 3 dimensions at least), we know he's not entirely made of matter as we understand it, we know that the Great Old Ones are beyond morality (i.e. "good" and "evil" don't apply), we know that he's trapped until the "stars are right", we know that his dreams/thoughts can influence "sensitive" people, and we know that he took a boat to the head without slowing him down appreciably. Unless you're counting RPG rulebooks as canon, we don't actually have much to go on for his actual abilities. However, it's fun to take the "Lovecraftian entities tear other things to shreds" position in general, but it's more from entertainment value than through logical deduction.Well... I admit it's not exactly the firmest of arguments, but there's also the "What are these creatures supposed to be?"-aspect. And the answer to this is (as far as I interprete his stories, and according to something I read on the Net - mind you, I think that was Wikipedia, so hardly the most reliable source either) that Lovecraft tried to contain a specific philosophy in his books which basically amounts to nihilism on steroids, and more specifically, that human lives are not only pointless and negligible, but also that we are cripples, unable to ever comprehend the true laws that govern the hostile world, that we live in just a small area of the universe where just a subset of the true laws of nature is in function, and even this is just temporary - on the time scales of the more advanced species, this tiny haven of savety and the dust speckle that is the human race will be gone tomorrow. And within this philosophy, it's pretty obvious that Cthulhu must ultimately win, for such is the destiny of the human race - to fall before the elder, greater races.

[EvilElitest]

finished watching snatch, amazing movie, and just four quick points


1. I don't like comedy characters in vs. threads myself, a good example would be bugs bunny vs. Sauron, that would be an awfully boring
2. GoC, look, i really don't understand you right now and this might because i'm really bloody exchausted but still, can you restate your point very clearly
3. On that topic, does anyone find any mistakes in the OP's first post that are worth considering, because discussing my arguing habits are starting to derail things
4. No body comments on my tennis player metapheor, nobody?
from,
EE

[GoC]

The most legendary witch on Terry Pratchett's Discworld.

I kinda dislike making characters from serious stories face characters from comedic ones; it just doesn't feel right. Now, as for the contest in question... I have read maybe about ten Discworld novels, so I'm far from being an expert, but as far as I recall she relies almost solely on worldy experience, psychology, her infamous image and stubbornness; and while she uses magic every now and then, I don't recall her ever doing anything all that impressive with it. Of course, she is so infamous and stubborn, that pretty much any creature on Discworld would flee in panic; but that's part of what makes her character so funny. Sauron and the Nazgul would not have to follow comedy rules, presumably, and hence not be impressed in the slightest; and what would she do then?

A lot of people and creatures who've never heard of her also run in fear. I think she has a will save DC 30 gaze attack that causes Fear on a failed save. I've heard of exactly one very powerful person who made their save.
Here's where she uses shapeshifting:

The Archchancellor backed into a pillar, and the shock made him recover. He shook his head irritably, cupped a hand and sent a stream of white fire streaking towards the witch.
Without dropping her iridescent stare Granny raised a hand and deflected the flames towards the roof. There was an explosion and a shower of tile fragments.
Cutangle vanished. Where he had been standing a huge snake coiled, poised to strike.
Granny vanished. Where she had been standing was a large wicker basket.
The snake became a giant reptile from the mists of time.
The basket became the snow wind of the Ice Giants, coating the struggling monster with ice.
The reptile became a sabre-toothed tiger, crouched to spring.
The gale became a bubbling tar pit.
The tiger managed to become an eagle, stooping.
The tar pits became a tufted hood.

She has other abilities as vague and unused as Sauron's.
Esk glassed a mountain in her sleep and Granny is much more powerful.

[Selrahc]

Granny is a powerful, powerful psychic presence.

In Lords and Ladies, shes fighting the elf queen, who is a supernatural psychic entity on a scary level. In Carpe Jugullum she is fighting a powerful vampire count, who is immune to the general vampire weaknesses and is an astoundingly tough and experienced mental combatant. She is weathering and deflecting psychic blows capable of demolishing castles, and powerful enough that even with her taking the brunt of the force, it still knocks away all the other Witches. She can respond with blows of equal force.

Other stuff she can do, is things like convincing all the atoms in a hat to spontaneously decide to move apart at high speeds(Bang!), or convince people that they are frogs. Or just actually turn them into frogs. She can take pain outside a persons body, and let it out later. She can turn aside blows from weapons. She can lay traps for Death. Turn invisible (or more properly, be so far outside someones notice that she might as well be invisible, with the added benefit that traditional methods of finding the invisible won't work), she can possess peoples minds, people in this case scaling all the way up to large monsters, weather conditions or even entire countries.

Just because she chooses not to be showy, doesn't mean shes not sitting on top of a lot of magical energy.

[Winterwind]

Okay, okay, I give in! :smallbiggrin:

Well, a good part of that is an incredible willpower, quite possibly on par with Tom Bombadil; I could even imagine the Ring not having power over her (she also, like Tom, doesn't seem like the person to care about such stuff, albeit in a different way). The rest, most of her actual magic acts, must be from the books I did not read (yet). Though I remember this "possession of a country", indeed (Lords and Ladies, right?). :smallbiggrin:

Still, Sauron seems like a being to me who nevertheless would not feel fear, and there goes one of her mightiest weapons.

But, this is most definitely not the thread to argue about that (and I don't feel knowledgeable enough to participate in a debate involving Granny anyway, not on a forum with so many people wise in the ways of Pratchett anyway).



Mistakes made by the OP? Let's see...
Regarding point b) - it was not said that Sauron can't assume a human form anymore due to his "death" on Numenor, just that he can't assume a beautiful one.
Regarding point c) - that elf lord was Finrod, and the place in question was not Moldor - it was Tol-in-Gaurhoth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tol-in-Gaurhoth). Unless my memory is completely off and the Isle of the Werewolves actually lies in what was to become Moldor later on, but I'm pretty sure it does not.

[Lady Tialait]

This thread is cracking me up....

I like FF6...7 i didn't like...8 was okay..but the gameplay upset me....9 was funny...just funny....10 was Krap....11 was a mmo..hate those.....12 was fun...I liked it...don't know why...

Kingdom Hearts was just...not fun to me...I beat the living crap out of it to prove I didnt like it (I kept getting 'If you don't play it you don't know if you like it')

Tolkien was a little fast paced for me...then again I read his work after reading Frank Herbert....sooo you understand where that comes from...

As for Sauron...he can't be defeated as long as evil exists...he hides in the hearts of men..just...that is how i see it...but you know..whatever.

[Rutee]

I sincerely hope you don't live in a country were copyright extends 120 years after the death of the author then.
I hope the Transhumanists are right and my robot body is finished within my lifetime, then. Well, I hope that anyway, but here's another reason, however small!


I was actually thinking on that a few nights ago (I still lurk on the LK thread, I just don't feel it prudent to continue debating :0 ).

At the very basic, even a new zenith anima flaring would zap Sauron, or at the very least, light the nazgul in holy fire. Which brings up a second question. With exalted, the undead can feel a semi-fear thanks to zeniths. Would it stand to reason that a solar cast zenith would make the fear giving nazgul a run for their money when subject to holy fear?
Fear Aura? On a Solar? What? Integrity Charms ftw. Conveniently, Integrity is a Zenith caste skill! So yes, I'm pretty sure an Ess 2-3 Zenith could solo the Nazgul as a group, provided they did it in a sufficiently awesome way to keep the Essence flowing. The only weakness is a lack of Scenelong defenses at that essence..

For that matter, a DB with Golden Janissary Style might be fun to watch..


/end thread derailment

Oopsie..


"Some sort of communist" and similar phrases get used frequently (at least in my opinion) in a jocular way as a parody of McCarthyism (implying that if you don't think like I do then you're unAmerican even if the topic under discussion isn't even remotely related to baseball, mom, and apple pie). I took Rutee's comment as a joke and smiled to myself as I recall past glories in Paranoia (You're not a dirty commie, are you, Citizen?). Unless I'm completely misreading her post, the wire-fu comment was neither a personal attack nor an actual accusation of communism.
This is in fact, entirely correct. Except I didn't intend to evoke Paranoia, as I have no idea what that is, but I'm glad you smiled just the same!

Communism quit being an actually perceived threat in the mid-90s. I'm actually vaguely surprised that EE genuinely thought I could mean it seriously; I haven't seen Communism evoked as a serious threat in- wait, yes I have. I was just trying to actively forget my idiot American Civilization professor. Point withdrawn.

Mind, there are words that I could say that are similar, that I would understand much better being taken seriously if I had done so, but I feel I'm too close to politics as it is.


don't listen to Rutee, flaming me seems to be a pasttime
How self-important! Believe me, if at any point in time, I /genuinely/ decide an internet troll is worth my time, I have significantly better targets then you to unleash on (Though none of them are, mercifully, here). I was more concerned with explaining to GoC then flaming you.



However, sarcasm on the internet is rather infamous for not looking the way as intented, it could easlily be seen ether way, i'm basing my option on this statment combined with hte rest of the paragraph, so it varies. If she said communits with a or a it would make sense, but as of such she could be quite serious

No, I don't think anybody under the age of 40 is capable of using communist like that in some sort of serious manner. Well, maybe 30. The easing of tensions in the mid 80s makes it improbable there, since you wouldnt' have it drilled quite so much into you that communists are SCARY, and by the mid 90s the USSR, the scariest of the communist countries, had evaporated. I just don't think it's possible for people underneath a certain age limit. 'Course, I could be wrong.


2. Fair enough But the quote in question (is it accurate might i ask?) is in direct contradiction with source material is my main poinit
correct me if I'm wrong, but any character stating the Nazgul were powerful would be doing so from their perspective, no? Perspectives which are generally incomplete and certainly capable of being incorrect; Further, these are people who /are/ capable of fear, talking to other people capable of fear. It'd be like.. oh I don't know, if Superman had a bunch of clones (Perhaps some sort of Super Cloning power..) that were talking to each other. They wouldn't say "Well Kryptonite-man isn't so tough if you're immune to Kryptonite" to each other; They're all vulnerable to Kryptonite.


other than plot, gameplay, characters, script, story line, artwork, character devolpment, character design, humor, suspense, and Gummi ships no, no there isn't. You do realize that other can not like the game and suppor their reasons without being a communist or childish

Unless Rutee> critic's options of course
Bull****. Every professional gaming magazine was /drooling/ over FFVII at it's release; Quite frankly, I doubt you were old enough to even be playing games at the ti- oh my god that was more then 10 years ago. I feel old now. BAAAH. Regardless, I was actually more turned off, not less, by the sheer number of drippingly good reviews that the game got, from literally every single professional source, at the time of its release.

Notwithstanding that I had to come to the opinion that gaming magazines make their decisions via bribe; Granted that taste is a very ephemeral thing, but there seemed to be little internal consistency, even within one reviewer's opinions, of the publications I read. And Nintendo Power, PSM, and the official X-Box one are, expectedly, /awful/ at reviewing; I don't think Nintendo Power had lower then a 2/5 for any game.. even during the N64 period.

[Winterwind]

This is in fact, entirely correct. Except I didn't intend to evoke Paranoia, as I have no idea what that is, but I'm glad you smiled just the same! Paranoia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_%28role-playing_game%29) is a very, very funny sci-fi RPG. Okay, not as much sci-fi as parody, actually. It plays in a dystopic super-city-complex governed by the Computer, in which happiness is mandatory (not being happy is treason, punishable by death). The Computer uses people called Troubleshooters (first they find trouble, and then they shoot it) to protect itself and society from threats like commies, mutants and secret organisations. You play a Troubleshooter. Did I mention you are also a commie, mutant and/or member of a secret organisation? :smallwink:
Couple this with an insane Research Department cranking out incredibly dangerous items, testing which in the field is mandatory (failing that is treason and punishable by death), and which for the instruction manuals are always above your security clearance, and consider that you play with other players, who are also Troubleshooters (and commies, mutants and/or members of secret organisations), and you can imagine the ensuing chaos. Good thing everyone has several clones who take over once the original dies; for death will arrive soon and in a humorous way, that's one thing for sure. :smallcool:

By the way, reading the above was above your security clearance. Please report instantly to the next termination booth. Have a nice day. The Computer is your friend. :smallsmile:


correct me if I'm wrong, but any character stating the Nazgul were powerful would be doing so from their perspective, no? Perspectives which are generally incomplete and certainly capable of being incorrect; Further, these are people who /are/ capable of fear, talking to other people capable of fear. It'd be like.. oh I don't know, if Superman had a bunch of clones (Perhaps some sort of Super Cloning power..) that were talking to each other. They wouldn't say "Well Kryptonite-man isn't so tough if you're immune to Kryptonite" to each other; They're all vulnerable to Kryptonite.The Witch King seems to be pretty confident in the LotR that he can take on Gandalf. Now, unless he has fallen victim to his own propaganda, I think this indicates he does have quite a bit of power at his disposal. :smallwink:

[Eita]

Bull****. Every professional gaming magazine was /drooling/ over FFVII at it's release; Quite frankly, I doubt you were old enough to even be playing games at the ti- oh my god that was more then 10 years ago. I feel old now. BAAAH. Regardless, I was actually more turned off, not less, by the sheer number of drippingly good reviews that the game got, from literally every single professional source, at the time of its release.

Notwithstanding that I had to come to the opinion that gaming magazines make their decisions via bribe; Granted that taste is a very ephemeral thing, but there seemed to be little internal consistency, even within one reviewer's opinions, of the publications I read. And Nintendo Power, PSM, and the official X-Box one are, expectedly, /awful/ at reviewing; I don't think Nintendo Power had lower then a 2/5 for any game.. even during the N64 period.

He was talking about KH2. Really, when he said Gummi ships it should have been obvious.

And best of all no one really knows what a Communist is.

[Rutee]

He was talking about KH2. Really, when he said Gummi ships it should have been obvious.

And best of all no one really knows what a Communist is.

KH2.. now that came out long after I quit reading professional gaming magazines, for above-stated reasons. ...What the devil was the general opinion, actually?

And uh, yeah, a lot of people do, because communism is a very large set of ideals. When most people say it, they mean Stalinist communism, sure, or Chinese or Cuban communism. True, they've drifted very, very far from Marxist communism, but still...

Or do you mean "One who lives or lived on one of the various flavors of utopian commune"? It's a big word!

[Eita]

@KH2: *shrug*

@Communism: *sigh* You just don't understand.

[Poison_Fish]

Fear Aura? On a Solar? What? Integrity Charms ftw. Conveniently, Integrity is a Zenith caste skill! So yes, I'm pretty sure an Ess 2-3 Zenith could solo the Nazgul as a group, provided they did it in a sufficiently awesome way to keep the Essence flowing. The only weakness is a lack of Scenelong defenses at that essence..

True, I was just thinking of the 1st edition anima flare effect that's similar to a dawns, but only on creatures of darkness.

EE, you still haven't gotten back to my on the circle thing, but it doesn't really matter. I imagine we are just thinking of a different ranking system.

[GoC]

The Witch King seems to be pretty confident in the LotR that he can take on Gandalf. Now, unless he has fallen victim to his own propaganda, I think this indicates he does have quite a bit of power at his disposal. :smallwink:

Not neccessarily.
How much power does Gandalf have?
What powers does he have?
What are their limits?
Can he use them often?
And at which points has he used them?

I'm learning a lot about LotR in these forums.:smallbiggrin:

[Rutee]

@Communism: *sigh* You just don't understand.

Enlighten me. We're talking real world philosophy, this is something I am /very/ open to hearing every last detail of.


Not neccessarily.
How much power does Gandalf have?
What powers does he have?
What are their limits?
Can he use them often?
And at which points has he used them?
I had simpler explanations.

Either A: Gandalf /isn't/ !Fear, or B: Maybe the Witch King really did just think he was all that and a bag of chips, or C: Maybe he knew about his prophecy.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Perhaps it is easier to say that communism, like any system of government that's not monarchic, is prone to spectacularly backfiring?

[Eita]

Enlighten me. We're talking real world philosophy, this is something I am /very/ open to hearing every last detail of.

That post just proves that you don't know what I'm talking about.

[Rutee]

That post just proves that you don't know what I'm talking about.

If you will persist in not botherring to explain aside from telling me how little I understand, /especially/ on something I'm reasonably certain I know, I will be forced to assume that you are in fact, making crap up, and trying to fake me out with it. Will you actually explain what you're talking about, or will I stop paying attention to you vis-a-vis political and/or philosophical ways of thought?

[Eita]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_(role-playing_game)#Secret_Societies

Scroll down to 'Communists'.

[Rutee]

It would have killed you to say "Paranoia" sooner? :P

[Azerian Kelimon]

Wasn't this about REAL communism?

If it's not though, there's still a thing to be done with communism: PURGE!

[Sir_Chivalry]

Thank you EE and Winterwind.

And thank you opposition to Sauron's power.

I think EE brought up Melian, and I just have to say...that makes sense. The power of Melian is clearly defined, unlike Sauron's, and we can measure by that. I'd say that she could have taken Annatar in a fight, so he is probably somewhere below her in power.

Oh, and I agree, Silmarillion was dry at times, but I'd have to say the tragedy of Turin, or the Children of Hurin as it has been republished, is the most moving story I have read. Look into it, all of you who seem to think the man was boring.

[Anung Un Rama]

First of all, I would like to point out that the entire point of Vs. threads is to discuss and theorize what would happen in a fight between the two particular characters brought into question, not come to a definitive answer because no-one will ever be able to agree completely with one verdict. Also due to the very nature of fiction these fights are almost impossible to prove one way or another where the combatants are on roughly equal power levels, because writers form their creations to be interesting and to make for a good story, not to have set abilities and power levels. Writers also for the purpose of plot, fluctuate the power levels of their creations in order to further the story.

However, I do believe that Cthulhu, although not one of the most powerful of the H.P. Lovecraft deities, (paling in comparison to those of the ancient ones such as nyarlathotep) is still infinitely more powerful than sauron, due to the very nature of Lovecraft's Mythos which displays his and the other ancient deities effective omnipotence.

[EvilElitest]

Damn, tired, i might take a few days off, anyways


Mistakes made by the OP? Let's see...
Regarding point b) - it was not said that Sauron can't assume a human form anymore due to his "death" on Numenor, just that he can't assume a beautiful one.
Regarding point c) - that elf lord was Finrod, and the place in question was not Moldor - it was Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Unless my memory is completely off and the Isle of the Werewolves actually lies in what was to become Moldor later on, but I'm pretty sure it does not.
Both right

I hope the Transhumanists are right and my robot body is finished within my lifetime, then. Well, I hope that anyway, but here's another reason, however small!

Good luck i suppose





Oopsie..



This is in fact, entirely correct. Except I didn't intend to evoke Paranoia, as I have no idea what that is, but I'm glad you smiled just the same!

Communism quit being an actually perceived threat in the mid-90s. I'm actually vaguely surprised that EE genuinely thought I could mean it seriously; I haven't seen Communism evoked as a serious threat in- wait, yes I have. I was just trying to actively forget my idiot American Civilization professor. Point withdrawn.
1.thank you,
2.i've never played paronida (sound amusing)
3. but for the record i have been called a communist seriously about 11 times now. I feel old
4. My point about Disney still stands



How self-important!
Thank you i try


Believe me, if at any point in time, I /genuinely/ decide an internet troll is worth my time, I have significantly better targets then you to unleash on (Though none of them are, mercifully, here). I was more concerned with explaining to GoC then flaming you.

Well that is a relief i suppose

No, I don't think anybody under the age of 40 is capable of using communist like that in some sort of serious manner. Well, maybe 30. The easing of tensions in the mid 80s makes it improbable there, since you wouldnt' have it drilled quite so much into you that communists are SCARY, and by the mid 90s the USSR, the scariest of the communist countries, had evaporated. I just don't think it's possible for people underneath a certain age limit. 'Course, I could be wrong.
I'm 16 and i've heard it used serouly (as a political term not as a Crazy communist sort of thing) and as a incorrect insult quite a few times, but that might just be me


correct me if I'm wrong, but any character stating the Nazgul were powerful would be doing so from their perspective, no? Perspectives which are generally incomplete and certainly capable of being incorrect; Further, these are people who /are/ capable of fear, talking to other people capable of fear.
Good point but it isn't just from character perspective, it is stated by the book's narrative as well
Now characters who says that Nazgul are dangerous in ways other than fear (though granted fear is their greatest weapon) are
1. Gandalf, who is a maiar and one of the wisest and most knowledgeable beings in the world, who has been fighting Sauron and his servants for possible 2,000 years and knows a lot on the subjet
2. Aragorn who knows admittedly less than gandalf is however also experienced and wise in the ways of Sauorn's forces
3. Frodo who fits your point perfectly, except his fears are confirmed by the above two. he also gets shanked by them
4. Elrond, much like Gandalf in terms of wisdom
5. Some elf dude the hobbits met in the first book who's name i don't recall
6. Boromir and Faramir, both of whom have faced them in the past
7. Gollum who is admittedly totally insane
Now in the books we have at least three examples of his entering combat, so he isn't a total wimp. He might not defeat the LK but he certainly isn't a wuss
And wouldn't this go in the other thread?




It'd be like.. oh I don't know, if Superman had a bunch of clones (Perhaps some sort of Super Cloning power..) that were talking to each other. They wouldn't say "Well Kryptonite-man isn't so tough if you're immune to Kryptonite" to each other; They're all vulnerable to Kryptonite.

wait what? Now i know i'm lost

Bull****. Every professional gaming magazine was /drooling/ over FFVII at it's release;
Just to make this clear, i have long been of the option that most of those gaming magazine's options on what is and what is not a good game isn't a very good one, as i find my self disagree with them a good deal of the time. Also, just because a lot of people like the game doesn't make it good. Take your hatred of LOTRS, a LOT of people like that book, i imagine the majority of fantasy fans (though i can say with 100% accuracy). now you don't like it. Does that make you automatically wrong in weather or not the book is well written? Of course not. Same with Eragon actually.


Quite frankly, I doubt you were old enough to even be playing games at the ti- oh my god that was more then 10 years ago.
I played it a lot later, still didn't like it, i prefered FF6


I feel old now. BAAAH. Regardless, I was actually more turned off, not less, by the sheer number of drippingly good reviews that the game got, from literally every single professional source, at the time of its release.

I'd be happy to start a thread on the Gaming (other gameas) forum if yo want a total list of my complains, though it might take a few day
however, i just point out that just because they liked it, doesn't mean i should like it, nor does it make what i don't like about it go away


Notwithstanding that I had to come to the opinion that gaming magazines make their decisions via bribe;
You know what, i've been saying that for years

Granted that taste is a very ephemeral thing, but there seemed to be little internal consistency, even within one reviewer's opinions, of the publications I read.

Doesn't change much, though i suspect after seeing how well it should (i think it was the angst but it might be the game play) most just hopped on the band wagon


And Nintendo Power, PSM, and the official X-Box one are, expectedly, /awful/ at reviewing; I don't think Nintendo Power had lower then a 2/5 for any game.. even during the N64 period.
Seconded, hell i could do a better job, and that there is pretty pathetic

He was talking about KH2. Really, when he said Gummi ships it should have been obvious.
In that quote yes i was thank you, but i was refering to FF7 eariler so she might have been mistaken



KH2.. now that came out long after I quit reading professional gaming magazines, for above-stated reasons. ...What the devil was the general opinion, actually?
Don't bother trust me, same old "Great, not as good as the orginal, X is cool, Y is cool, C is ok, Jack Sparrow is great, 9/10" sort of ratings, personally i think they just build off the sales of the first and most of them didn't even
play the bloody game


EE, you still haven't gotten back to my on the circle thing, but it doesn't really matter. I imagine we are just thinking of a different ranking system.
Oh i know, i will get back to you on that, i'm just trying to find myself the time


Not neccessarily.
How much power does Gandalf have?
What powers does he have?
What are their limits?
Can he use them often?
And at which points has he used them?

I'm learning a lot about LotR in these forums.
1. Greatest wizard in the land, so he can do anything Saurman can do
2. Move this to hte WK vs. LK thread and i'll answer everything
3. Yes, yes you are. Glad to help


Enlighten me. We're talking real world philosophy, this is something I am /very/ open to hearing every last detail of.
Seconded, i'm interested as well

That post just proves that you don't know what I'm talking about.
well, no, no i'm not, what are you talking about:smallconfused:

edit-oh taht makes sense




However, I do believe that Cthulhu, although not one of the most powerful of the H.P. Lovecraft deities, (paling in comparison to those of the ancient ones such as nyarlathotep) is still infinitely more powerful than sauron, due to the very nature of Lovecraft's Mythos which displays his and the other ancient deities effective omnipotence.

Pretty much yeah, so a Sauron vs. Elder god thread wouldn't be interesting because honestly, what would Sauron do? He can't win so where is the fun of the thread?
from,
EE