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Behold_the_Void
2007-12-21, 03:21 PM
Feats like Dodge, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization are generally regarded to be decidedly sub-par. Say they gave their set flat bonus (in this case feats like Dodge apply to everyone, not just one person), and that bonus increased every x levels (so, Weapon Focus starts at +1 at level 1 and goes up to +2, and then +3 and so on). What level should this happen at to make the feats worthwhile?

PlasticSoldier
2007-12-21, 03:24 PM
Hmm, I'm not sure about what levels would make it worthwhile. But, this is a decent idea for making those feats not suck.

SurlySeraph
2007-12-21, 03:30 PM
I'd say every 2nd or 3rd level - I haven't thought about this much, but it's a good idea. This would actually make Lightning Reflexes and suchlike worthwhile, too.

MrNexx
2007-12-21, 04:23 PM
http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/12868.html

I've thought about this, as well.

Wordmiser
2007-12-21, 04:30 PM
I would add 1 every four levels, though I would still like to rework the Dodge feat entirely...

Applying Dodge Bonuses against all enemies wouldn't be unbalancing, would it? It would make the feat vastly easier to use and what, after all, is 1 AC to a first level character? 3 AC at tenth level? 6 AC at 20th level? None of those seem unbalanced at all.

[edit:]So pretty much, I second MrNexx's link's statement.

Admiral Squish
2007-12-21, 04:37 PM
I would add 1 every four levels, though I would still like to rework the Dodge feat entirely...

Applying Dodge Bonuses against all enemies wouldn't be unbalancing, would it? It would make the feat vastly easier to use and what, after all, is 1 AC to a first level character? 3 AC at tenth level? 6 AC at 20th level? None of those seem unbalanced at all.

I like that kind of scaling, but I think there needs to be some limit on who it applies to. Maybe it could scale in how many enemies it would apply to, too.

MrNexx
2007-12-21, 04:39 PM
I would add 1 every four levels, though I would still like to rework the Dodge feat entirely...

Applying Dodge Bonuses against all enemies wouldn't be unbalancing, would it? It would make the feat vastly easier to use and what, after all, is 1 AC to a first level character? 3 AC at tenth level? 6 AC at 20th level? None of those seem unbalanced at all.

I've done "Dodge's bonus applies against all enemies" forever; it's simply easier to keep track of.

Miles Invictus
2007-12-21, 04:45 PM
I think a slower progression -- every five to seven levels or so -- would be a bit more in line with the rest of the game, since most of the progressive class features improve at this rate. Furthermore, a slow progression prevents these feats from becoming so good that everyone takes them.

If Dodge or Weapon Focus granted an extra +1 every three levels, someone who took the feat would have an untyped +7 bonus at 19th level. That's the difference between hitting someone on a 13 and needing a natural 20. I think that's a bit strong for a feat.

Slowing the progression to once every five levels gives a +4 bonus at 16th level, and slowing it to every seven levels gives a +3 bonus at 15th. These are still significant bonuses, but they aren't so overwhelmingly good that everyone will want to take them.

Edit to add:
Fast-scaling feats could work, I think, if they were assigned to common non-stacking sources, like enhancement bonuses for weapons, or a special enhancement bonus to armor that applies against touch AC. It would keep things within roughly the same power band and give players a little bit more flexibility.

MrNexx
2007-12-21, 05:03 PM
One reason I chose 11once every 4 levels for Weapon Focus was that meant that 2/3 BAB characters would have the same bonus at 1/1 BAB characters with their chosen weapons (though they'd be behind in attacks a few places, and if the 1/1 was also focused, they'd still be behind).

Wordmiser
2007-12-21, 10:06 PM
Slowing the progression to once every five levels gives a +4 bonus at 16th level, and slowing it to every seven levels gives a +3 bonus at 15th. These are still significant bonuses, but they aren't so overwhelmingly good that everyone will want to take them.It seems that everyone should want to take most feats. Everyone who casts spells wants Quicken Spell, everyone who fights in melee wants Power Attack, everyone who uses a bow wants Rapid shot, everyone who uses two weapons wants Two Weapon Fighting and every gish wants Arcane Strike. Why should other feats be less worthwhile than these? There shouldn't be a reluctant "Well, I guess I might as well take Cleave because nothing else would help me at all" process every three levels, rather a descision between equally attractive options.

ocato
2007-12-21, 11:34 PM
My only complaint with your set up there is Skill Focus scaling so fast. Every even level? That is going to make whatever skill you take focus on a shoe in. Concentrate, Perform, Diplomacy, Intimidate... some skills find themselves in combat at lot, and a rogue with bluff and improved feint will be a force to be reckoned with. I'd consider a slower progression, lest everyone have to have skill focus in 2-3 skills just to break even.

Cuddly
2007-12-21, 11:38 PM
Skill focus in tumble became a whole lot more attractive.

Azukius
2007-12-22, 12:00 AM
Maybe make it so it only scales if you remain in the class in which you chose it, this would make fighters a lot more attractiev to stay with rather then just as a couple of level dip.

The idea is good, probably use it or something similar in my next campaign.

Draco Ignifer
2007-12-22, 12:51 AM
An additional +1 boost at 5, 10, 15, 20 seems pretty balanced for most of them. Weapon Focus and Dodge becomes +5, the save feats become +6, and Skill Focus becomes +7? Maybe double Specialization's bonus, giving it a +2 each time, so that it becomes +10... or giving it ittermittent bonuses (+1 at 3, 8, 13, and 18 as well).

The only question becomes what happens with things like improved focus and specialization... do they just get removed and replaced with "focus/specialization and character level 5?" Or would they double the progression? +10 to hit above and beyond everything else seems like a lot, even if you do have to wait until level 20...

Mark Hall
2007-12-22, 12:55 AM
It seems that everyone should want to take most feats. Everyone who casts spells wants Quicken Spell, everyone who fights in melee wants Power Attack, everyone who uses a bow wants Rapid shot, everyone who uses two weapons wants Two Weapon Fighting and every gish wants Arcane Strike. Why should other feats be less worthwhile than these? There shouldn't be a reluctant "Well, I guess I might as well take Cleave because nothing else would help me at all" process every three levels, rather a descision between equally attractive options.

Could you reword this? Perhaps I'm being dense, but I don't see much of a downside of making some feats more attractive without breaking them.

As for Skill focus, that works out to a +12 at level 20; in most cases, it is enough to turn a maxxed-out cross-class skill into a class skill. Would you make it every 3rd level, perhaps?

SurlySeraph
2007-12-22, 01:01 AM
Could you reword this? Perhaps I'm being dense, but I don't see much of a downside of making some feats more attractive without breaking them.

I think he's agreeing with you.

I'd have Skill Focus increase every 3rd or 4th level, mostly because making it relatively easy to boost a skill to a very high rank leads to things like the Jumplomancer (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=943738)

Behold_the_Void
2007-12-22, 01:05 AM
Since the Greater Variants are fighter-only, might as well make them scale too.

I'll probably go with 4 or 5 level scaling, not quite sure yet. I may mess with the skill focus just a bit.

Wordmiser
2007-12-22, 01:18 AM
Could you reword this? Perhaps I'm being dense, but I don't see much of a downside of making some feats more attractive without breaking them.Sorry, that was poorly phrased.

I was trying to state that all feats should be good. The Dodge/Weapon Focus/Animal Affinity feats should all be just as attractive as Power Attack/Combat Reflexes/Divine Might feats.

And I would give Skill Focus feats +3+[1/4 levels] bonuses to one skill while feats like Self-Sufficient give two bonuses of +2+[1/6 levels], just to keep their proportionate gains equal at all levels.

Mark Hall
2007-12-22, 01:27 AM
Since the Greater Variants are fighter-only, might as well make them scale too.

I'll probably go with 4 or 5 level scaling, not quite sure yet. I may mess with the skill focus just a bit.

Actually, one of the nice things about this is that you don't NEED the greater variants. They existed to give an additional bonus, which is already built into a scaling feat.

Mark Hall
2007-12-22, 01:31 AM
And I would give Skill Focus feats +3+[1/4 levels] bonuses to one skill while feats like Self-Sufficient give two bonuses of +2+[1/6 levels], just to keep their proportionate gains equal at all levels.

I honestly didn't consider the "two skill" feats in writing the brief article... they slipped my mind. I only considered "Skill Focus" itself. I'd be more inclined to put Alertness, Self-sufficient, etc. at +1/+1, with an additional +1 per x+1 level (with X being the number of levels Skill Focus goes up... so if you put Skill Focus at +1/3, these should be +1 at 4). Having a +2 to both skills is not necessarily more advantageous than having a +3 to one, even though the total bonus is momentarily bigger.

Khosan
2007-12-22, 01:52 AM
Toughness in Neverwinter Nights was actually a decent feat choice. +1 HP per level was handy, granted it wasn't something you'd take if you had an essential feat to pick up, but it was still pretty attractive in comparison to your other options.

I'm not actually sure if that particular version of it was unique to NWN or 3e itself. In any case, it was better than its current incarnation.

Talic
2007-12-22, 02:00 AM
Weapon Focus:
Requirements: Unchanged
Benefit: You get a +1 to all attack rolls with the selected weapon. At 5th level, and again at 10th, 15th, and 20th level, the bonus increases by one, to +2, +3, +4, and +5, respectively.

Weapon Specialization:
Requirements: Unchanged.
Benefit: You get a +2 to all damage rolls with the selected weapon. At 5th level, and again at 10th, 15th, and 20th level, the bonus increases by two, to +4, +6, +8, and +10, respectively.

Greater Weapon Focus:
Requirements: Unchanged.
Benefit: Once per round, you may reroll one attack roll with the selected weapon.

Greater Weapon Specialization:
Requirements: Unchanged.
Benefit: Once per encounter, you may maximize the damage roll of one attack (with the selected weapon) that successfully hits. This applies to all sources of damage, including bonus energy damage and precision damage.

Dodge:
Requirements: Unchanged.
Benefit: You may, as a free action, designate one target to be the target of this feat. You gain a +1 bonus to your AC against that foe. At 5th level, and again at 15th level, this bonus increases by +1 (to a maximum of +3). At 10th level, and again at 20th level, you may select an additional target to be affected by Dodge (to a maximum of 3 targets at 20th level).


How's these look?

Mark Hall
2007-12-22, 03:05 AM
Greater Weapon Specialization:
Requirements: Unchanged.
Benefit: Once per encounter, you may maximize the damage roll of one attack (with the selected weapon) that successfully hits. This applies to all sources of damage, including bonus energy damage and precision damage.

How's these look?

Overall, they look really good, though I'm not sure about this one; I'd be more inclined towards a damage reroll.

Behold_the_Void
2007-12-22, 03:36 AM
Also, declaring dodge drives me up the wall. I make it a flat bonus and let it go at that.

tyckspoon
2007-12-22, 03:42 AM
Toughness in Neverwinter Nights was actually a decent feat choice. +1 HP per level was handy, granted it wasn't something you'd take if you had an essential feat to pick up, but it was still pretty attractive in comparison to your other options.

I'm not actually sure if that particular version of it was unique to NWN or 3e itself. In any case, it was better than its current incarnation.

Improved Toughness (don't recall where it first appeared). It's what Toughness really ought to have been in the first place. NWN made several such changes that would be nice to back-port into the base game; the NWN2 Bard in particular is a good change from the base bard. The games' AI sucks, which makes it less useful in practice [for gods' sake, stop changing your inspiration!], but it's still nice.

Kizara
2007-12-22, 03:42 AM
Fighter:
-Gain +1 to weapon attack rolls at 3rd level and every three levels thereafter (6th, 9th, etc).
-Gain +1 to weapon damage rolls at 4th level and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, etc)
-Gain Defensive Combat: You may subtract a number from your attack rolls and add it to your AC as a Dodge bonus. This number may not exceed your fighter level. Does not stack with Combat Expertise.
-Gain Armor Specialization as a free bonus feat at level 6.
-Gain 1 of Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes or Great Fortitude at level 7.
-Gain Uncanny Dodge at level 9.
-Gain Improved Uncanny Dodge at level 13.
-Gain a +1 Armor bonus to AC (stacks with normal armor) while wearing heavy armor at 6th-level and every 6 levels thereafter (12th,18th).

I just gave this to the fighter class, and made weapon focus +2 and wpn spec +3.

KillianHawkeye
2007-12-22, 03:45 AM
Just out of curiosity, would these feats scale according to your character level, or would they be based on the how many levels it's been since you got them? Like, could my 18th level Fighter take Weapon Specialization and suddenly be doing +8 damage?

Mark Hall
2007-12-22, 03:58 AM
Just out of curiosity, would these feats scale according to your character level, or would they be based on the how many levels it's been since you got them? Like, could my 18th level Fighter take Weapon Specialization and suddenly be doing +8 damage?

Ideally, you'd have them scale with the level you got them at, but, really, that would be too much of a pain in the butt to deal with; it's easier to just base them off of character levels.

Partysan
2007-12-22, 04:50 AM
Have you ever had a look at Szatany's Fantastic Feat Fix? I think it's lovely (though there are some exploits in it, but less bad than the ubercharger with 32000 dmg on one hit).
It can be found here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=809334

Satyr
2007-12-22, 05:18 AM
I think it's a great idea to scale those feats- but I would not give the bnus too often, but would still let the greater varieties working like they used to - just doubling the boni. If a Weapon Focus gives a total Bonus of +5, and a Weapon Specialisation gives a total Bonus of +10 to damage, the two additional feats would double these boni.
Why? Because Fighters should be heroic warriors, not sidekicks of cowardish spellcasters.
Likewise I would make these feats more accessible to all Full BAB clases, like the Weappon Attitude of the warblade.

Weapon Focus
Requirements: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You get a +1 to all attack rolls with the selected weapon. At 5th level, and again at 10th, 15th, and 20th level, the bonus increases by one, to +2, +3, +4, and +5, respectively.

Weapon Specialization:
Requirements: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 4th or other Full BAB class 6th
Benefit: You get a +2 to all damage rolls with the selected weapon. At 5th level, and again at 10th, 15th, and 20th level, the bonus increases by two, to +4, +6, +8, and +10, respectively.

Greater Weapon Focus:
Requirements: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 8th or other full BAB class 10th
Benefit: The You get a +1 to all attack rolls with the selected weapon. At 5th level, and again at 10th, 15th, and 20th level, the bonus increases by one, to +2, +3, +4, and +5, respectively. This Bonus stacks with the
Attack Bonus of Weapon Focus.

Greater Weapon Specialization:
Requirements: Proficiency with selected weapon, Greater Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Specialization with selected weapon, fighter level 12th or other Full BAB class 14th.
Benefit: At 5th level, and again at 10th, 15th, and 20th level, the bonus increases by two, to +4, +6, +8, and +10, respectively. This Bonus stacks with the Bonus of Weapon Specialisation.

Lolzords
2007-12-22, 06:09 AM
Greater Weapon Focus:
Requirements: Unchanged.
Benefit: Once per round, you may reroll one attack roll with the selected weapon.

Greater Weapon Specialization:
Requirements: Unchanged.
Benefit: Once per encounter, you may maximize the damage roll of one attack (with the selected weapon) that successfully hits. This applies to all sources of damage, including bonus energy damage and precision damage.

I like these two, it makes up for the fighter level 9 and level 12 you need for the req.

Talic
2007-12-22, 06:22 AM
Keep in mind, the Greater feats require a lot of fighter levels. This is something like a repaid investment. Both do something useful, but limited. Most people will save their greater spec for a crit, most will reroll often. This represents that fighters are Significantly more accurate from training, and when they land a signature hit, it HURTS. Compared to a barbarian's brute strength, a ranger's tricks, it seems like it'd really help fighters develop a flavor and a strategy, rather than just be meatshields.

Why not double the bonuses instead? Simple, a +10 to hit, and +20 to damage on every hit? Probably just a BIT excessive.

Greater Spec could really come in handy if you were a fighter 15/something else 5, where something else gets you extra damage, such as rogue or a caster class. It could get nasty when you add in ToB maneuvers at 1/2 ToB class level (Stone Dragon comes to mind). But it'd definately make fighters more competitive.

MammonAzrael
2007-12-22, 06:24 AM
Ok, hitting the SRD feats first. And after reading through the "Cruelest spell usage" thread, I'm ok if these aren't perfectly balanced. After all, most of them can only be used to hit you. I'm not listing Prereqs or "special" since I'm not changing them.

Improved Disarm
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to disarm an opponent, nor does the opponent have a chance to disarm you. You also gain a +4 bonus on the opposed attack roll you make to disarm your opponent. This bonus increases to +5 at 12th level and to +6 at 18th level.
Normal: See the normal disarm rules.

This change could also apply to Imp. Feint, Grapple, Trip, etc. This scaling may not be necessary, but certainly would help those builds.

Dodge
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class. At 5th level, 10th level, and 15th level, this bonus increases by +1 (to a maximum of +4). At 20th level you retain this bonus while flat-footed.
A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.

Mobility
Benefit: You get a +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of or within a threatened area. A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. At 10th level you retain this bonus while flat-footed.

Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. At 9th level the penalty for both hands lessen by an additional 1 and again at the 18th level(for a total 4 and 8 respectively).



Weapon Focus:
Requirements: Unchanged
Benefit: You get a +1 to all attack rolls with the selected weapon. At 5th level, and again at 10th, 15th, and 20th level, the bonus increases by one, to +2, +3, +4, and +5, respectively.

Weapon Specialization:
Requirements: Unchanged.
Benefit: You get a +2 to all damage rolls with the selected weapon. At 5th level, and again at 10th, 15th, and 20th level, the bonus increases by two, to +4, +6, +8, and +10, respectively.

Greater Weapon Focus:
Requirements: Unchanged.
Benefit: Once per round, you may reroll one attack roll with the selected weapon.

I like these ones, but your GWS seemed a little dangerous, especially when you think of things like Arcane Strike! And did it include things like ability damage? Maybe:

Greater Weapon Specialization
Benefit: Increase the damage dice one category while you wield the selected weapon(d4->d6->d8->d10->d12). At 16th level, once per day, you may automatically confirm one critical with the selected weapon. At 20th level increase the selected weapons critical multiplier by 1(x2->x3->x4->x5).

Acrobatic
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Jump checks and Tumble checks. At 6th, 12th, and 18th level this bonus increases by 1(to a maximum of +5).
((Can be applied to all of these type of feats))

Great Fortitude
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Fortitude saving throws. At 5th, 10th, and 15th level this bonus increases by 1(to a maximum of +5).
((Same for Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes))

Skill Focus
Choose a skill.
Benefit: You get a +3 bonus on all checks involving that skill. This skill is considered a class skill for you. At 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level this bonus increases by 1(to a maximum of +8).

Toughness has already been fixed for 4th Ed:

Toughness
Tier: Heroic
Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain additional hit points equal to your level + 3. You also gain 1 additional hit point every time you gain a level.

Talic
2007-12-22, 06:40 AM
GWS seemed a little dangerous, especially when you think of things like Arcane Strike! And did it include things like ability damage? Maybe:


First, it's once per combat. Second, it's designed to be dangerous. Perhaps limiting damage added from spells. Even so, if you're getting an appreciable damage from AS, you're well above 12th level, as you need to be a 12 fighter to even qualify. Then you need caster levels, which will turn you into a late game gish. Compare the increase once per combat with the damage output of a 15+ gish, and tell me if it's off-power levels, overall.

In all fairness, for the few dice roll effects which include ability damage, I'd say no. Only lethal and nonlethal damage.