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GoC
2007-12-23, 02:01 PM
To kill a Barbed Devil?
No items with a CL requirement higher than 8 can be used and no custom items.

Let's see if you optimizers can manage the classic "1 wizard!" response this time.:smallwink:

Cage match. Arena is a cylinder 200ft high and 200ft radius.
1 minute for buffing.

EDIT: You cannot take corpes or controlled undead into the arena.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-23, 02:02 PM
Hmm... I think one arcanist with a reserve feat and a scroll of overland flight would win it.

GoC
2007-12-23, 02:11 PM
Hmm... I think one arcanist with a reserve feat and a scroll of overland flight would win it.

Hold Person+Greater Teleport at will:smallbiggrin:

Chronicled
2007-12-23, 02:16 PM
Are they hunting it, is it a chance meeting, or is it hunting them?

GoC
2007-12-23, 02:21 PM
Are they hunting it, is it a chance meeting, or is it hunting them?

Clarified.

Kaelik
2007-12-23, 02:46 PM
A single Evil Cleric with the Travel domain. Let's also say Undeath.

Only item is an Amulet of Turning or whatever it is called.

Casts fly, protection from Fire. Flys up.

Fight begins, Army of 400 Allips Wisdom Drains Devil to unconsciousness. Coup de Graces begin.

GoC
2007-12-23, 02:58 PM
A single Evil Cleric with the Travel domain. Let's also say Undeath.

Only item is an Amulet of Turning or whatever it is called.

Casts fly, protection from Fire. Flys up.

Fight begins, Army of 400 Allips Wisdom Drains Devil to unconsciousness. Coup de Graces begin.

Ummm...
And where exactly did the 400 Allips come from?:smallconfused:

Jack_Simth
2007-12-23, 03:03 PM
A single Evil Cleric with the Travel domain. Let's also say Undeath.

Only item is an Amulet of Turning or whatever it is called.

Casts fly, protection from Fire. Flys up.

Fight begins, Army of 400 Allips Wisdom Drains Devil to unconsciousness. Coup de Graces begin.

Methinks the time needed to create an army of 400 allips is a bit more than is permitted in the 1 minute buff time.

Let's see...

Lawful-whatever Dwarven cleric, domains Travel and Luck.
Feats: Heighten Spell (1st), Touch of Healing (3rd), Invisible Needle
Important spells:
Heightened to-3rd Spiritual Weapon, some 3rd level Cure spell, Protection from Energy, Energy Resistance, Fly (Domain), a few regular Spiritual Weapon spells.

Important Items:
Heavy Armor, large steel shield (for the AC), scroll of Freedom of Movement

Tactics:
Buff time: Cast Fly, and a Freedom of Movement off a scroll, Protection from Energy(Fire), Energy Resistance(Fire)
Combat: fly out of reach, cast the Spiritual Weapon spells until you run out of the ones in 2nd level slots (keep the Heightened one), then zap away with Invisible Needle, using the Touch of Healing reserve feat to keep yourself above 1/2 max HP for whatever hits from the Scorching Ray manage to get through. If you're careful, he'll run out of HP before you do.


Ummm...
And where exactly did the 400 Allips come from?:smallconfused:
Evil trick with Commanding one, then using that one to create an army of slaves out of a helpless village - Allips created by the one you Commanded are under the command of the one the one you Commanded - so you can theoretically have an arbitrarily sized army under your indirect command.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-23, 03:05 PM
Ummm...
And where exactly did the 400 Allips come from?:smallconfused:
Cleric Commands 1 Allip before combat. Allip goes out and creates 399 more Allips under its command in a pyramid scheme. All Allips move underground incorporeally to the arena.

This assumes unlimited prep time and no interference from Meddling Advenurers, though.

Dark Tira
2007-12-23, 03:19 PM
Simplest way is probably to have a Killoren Warlock with Fell Flight and Eldritch Spear. It'll take awhile but he'll get the job done.

WrstDmEvr
2007-12-23, 03:30 PM
1 Cleric.
Needs 300 600 GP in black onyx.

1. Cleric brings a two Paragon Pseudonatural Twelve-Headed Hydra corpses to the arena.
2. Cleric animates said Hydras as skeletons.
3. At the beginning of the fight, cleric sends said skeletons to attack the devil, utterly and hopelessly killing it.

Jack_Simth
2007-12-23, 03:37 PM
1 Cleric.
Needs 300 600 GP in black onyx.

1. Cleric brings a two Paragon Pseudonatural Twelve-Headed Hydra corpses to the arena.
2. Cleric animates said Hydras as skeletons.
3. At the beginning of the fight, cleric sends said skeletons to attack the devil, utterly and hopelessly killing it.

Where do you get said Paragon Pseudonatural Twelve-Headed Hydra corpses?

WrstDmEvr
2007-12-23, 03:43 PM
Where do you get said Paragon Pseudonatural Twelve-Headed Hydra corpses?

A god killed it them for being sacrilegious.

Jack_Simth
2007-12-23, 03:57 PM
A god killed it them for being sacrilegious.
"DM Fiat" - got it.

mabriss lethe
2007-12-23, 04:16 PM
I think that a wizard, a halfling hexblade, and a cleric could probably do it but there would be some fatalities. Adding in a Spellthief would possibly make this a better time.

The hexblade blows a feat for an improved familiar, a worg, and uses it as a mount. He'll buff his familiar with Augment familiar spell and both of them with expeditious retreat via shared spell. (with a medium highish charisma he should be able to cast 2 spells per day) During the first round he'll drop his hexblade curse on the devil and shoot him with the bow. His tactics will rely on lancing and ranged attacks. I can't remember if +2 weapons are out of the ballpark for a 6th level character, but if so a +1 curse spewing longbow would be in order. He softens up the devil from a distance before closing in to lance the poor fellow (alchemical silver tipped lance.) Should he have a high enough Charisma for 2 bonus spells/day, then magic weapon would be in order for his first lance pass. If there is a Spellthief in the party, replace magic weapon with Phantom Threat.

The wizard does his best to beat out the devil's spell resistance. Acid arrows (see spellthief) or drops summoned creatures to muddy the playing field seems like a good tactic. he could also work in tandem with the cleric to create the explosive rune-grenade trick. (wizard writes the rune on a sheet of paper, wraps it around the brick and chucks it at the devil. Cleric does a targeted dispel and intentionally fails his check.) When out of spells, he relies on crossbow with alchemical silver ammo.

The cleric alternates between healing and buffing where needed and attacking the devil. Possibly assisting with explosive rune-grenade.

The spellthief, if used, is what will make this such a great combination.
He stands back and ranged sneaks the devil (bow with alchemical silver bolts), substituting the extra damage for stealing spell like abilities (scorching ray and hold monster I think are the only ones he could steal.) The point of stealing the spell like abilities isn't to use them, but to deny them to the devil. Alternate that with stealing the devil's minor energy resistances, say to acid. (see wizard) when he isn't able to to sneak, he spends his handfull of spells for minor buffs for himself and others.

It might take a while to whittle him down, but it'll be fun.

Hallavast
2007-12-23, 04:26 PM
Where do you get said Paragon Pseudonatural Twelve-Headed Hydra corpses?

Flea Market. :smallconfused:

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-12-23, 04:26 PM
I think a Libris Mortis cleric could rock it, too, thanks to the horribly unspecific Summon Undead spells. Large skeleton does not specify a base creature, iirc. Summon two psuedonatural paragon troll skeletons. Then cast hide from undead, since you won't be able to come close to controlling those freaks. Watch a horror Kurtz couldn't have imagined befall that devil.

kamikasei
2007-12-23, 04:29 PM
I think a Libris Mortis cleric could rock it, too, thanks to the horribly unspecific Summon Undead spells. Large skeleton does not specify a base creature, iirc. Summon two psuedonatural paragon troll skeletons. Then cast hide from undead, since you won't be able to come close to controlling those freaks. Watch a horror Kurtz couldn't have imagined befall that devil.

That's been errata'd/superseded, somewhere, possibly Heroes of Horror. Anyway, a later book provided actual "choose from these lists for those spells" to prevent that cheese.

Jack_Simth
2007-12-23, 04:43 PM
Let's see... what other ways to pull it off...

Elven Druid-6 with a Dire Bat animal companion, a bow, and a lot of arrows (ride Bat, shoot devil). As long as you can overcome his DR (+1 Holy bow? Oil of Align Weapon?) the only thing the beast can actually hit you with is Order's Wrath... which, if the Druid is Lawful-Neutral does nothing (to the Druid) and only deals 1/2 of 5d8 to the animal companion.

Druid-6 with the Storm Bolt and Touch of Healing reserve feats and a Dire Bat animal companion (and lots of ranks in Concentration and Ride). Buff spells: Energy Resistance(Fire) (shared), then fly around using Storm Bolt off of a saved Call Lightning. 3d6, Reflex half, barbed devil doesn't have any resistance to Electricity, and the double-move of the Dire Bat gets you in and out of range of the Scorching Ray. Again, as long as you're not Chaotic, about the only thing that'll hurt for long is Order's Wrath, and the Barbed Devil can do that exactly once.

AlterForm
2007-12-23, 04:57 PM
How about my strategy from the "Lvl 20s vs a Freak" thread?

ie:

Probably 12-30 archers

:smallbiggrin:

GoC
2007-12-23, 05:17 PM
Tactics:
Buff time: Cast Fly, and a Freedom of Movement off a scroll, Protection from Energy(Fire), Energy Resistance(Fire)
Combat: fly out of reach, cast the Spiritual Weapon spells until you run out of the ones in 2nd level slots (keep the Heightened one), then zap away with Invisible Needle, using the Touch of Healing reserve feat to keep yourself above 1/2 max HP for whatever hits from the Scorching Ray manage to get through. If you're careful, he'll run out of HP before you do.

Freedom of movement has a CL requirement higher than 8.

Dark Tira: The Devil just Holds you then teleports on top of you and grapples.

Jack_Simth: What about it's Hold Person and Teleport?

Jack_Simth
2007-12-23, 05:30 PM
Freedom of movement has a CL requirement higher than 8.

Scroll, not ring. It's got a caster level of 7; a 6th level caster can make that 95% of the time.


Dark Tira: The Devil just Holds you then teleports on top of you and grapples.

Jack_Simth: What about it's Hold Person and Teleport?
Hold Person neutralized by way of Freedom of Movement; as for Teleport....


A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear within the spellís range, but it does not have to remain within the range.

He has to teleport on top of something, as he can't fly. He's limited to the ground. As long as you're in the air and immune to Hold Person, and you can deal with his Scorching rays, and you've got some kind of ranged attack that you can use on him basically at will, you're golden.

Hasivel
2007-12-23, 05:50 PM
It takes one. A 3rd level Vivacious (+3 LA template) anything. In most sorts of 1 vs. 1 battle Vivacious is a walking I win button. We'll say barbarian human just to get a decent handful of HP in case the Barbed Devil wins initiative. Rogue would be nice for other purposes too, but it's not important to this situation.

I'm incorporeal. I move under the floor, 5 feet down and directly beneath the Barbed Devil. He's now within my positive energy aura, and gains fast healing 1. The instant this takes him over his normal max HP (ie. the first turn) he is affected as if on a positive energy dominant plane. In other words, he has to make a DC 20 fort save or explode. And if he makes it, do it again next turn again, and again, and again, every round.

He's got a really nice fort save of +14 but sooner or later he'll roll a 5 or less and he can do jack-all to my incorporeal self under five feet of floor. I give him four, perhaps five, rounds before he bursts.

Vivacious creatures are just awesome cohorts. Living HP batteries that dissolve undead with positive energy ray, heal you, and cause living things to explode if used properly in battle. And incorporeal so many standard enemy tricks don't have an affect on them. Just don't sleep next to one without a ring of planar adaptation.

EDIT: Spelling.

Jack_Simth
2007-12-23, 05:54 PM
Hasivel:
Slight catch:
If you're underground, you've got Total Cover relative to each other - which means your aura is denied line of effect.

Back to the scenario, though...
The beast has no self healing - if you can hit him at all, repeatedly, while avoiding blows, you can win.

How do you win?
1) Be immune to melee/grappling (this is where Flight comes in handy)
2) Be immune to Scorching Ray (at caster level 12, he's only got a range of 55 feet; if you're 100 feet up, he can't touch you with this - again, Flight deals with it, but you can also use fire resistance and some healing)
3) Be immune to or able to soak his 1/day abilities (Unholy Blight, Order's Wrath; assuming you're not an Outsider, they're 5d8 if you're subject to them, half that if you're neutral - it shouldn't be difficult to deal with these two)
4) Be immune to Hold Person (this means either not qualifying as a target, or having something that suppresses it up).
5) Have an attack you can use essentially forever that has a chance of dealing damage.

He can't fly, and he can't teleport above you, so 1 and 2 are dealt with by Flying.
3) is dealt with by having a decent Con score. Or just being Lawful Evil. Or True Neutral with a good Will save. Or Lawful-Neutral, or Neural-Evil. This one's easy, really, as it's just HP damage.
4) can be dealt with by a 4th level spell scroll (if you're a Divine caster) or by a nonstandard race choice.
5) can be dealt with by way of nearly any good ranged weapon that you can use essentially at whim.

Hasivel
2007-12-23, 06:12 PM
Not so, although that is a tricky point. Firstly there's no hard and fast rules for Auras that are SUs, but assuming they're treated as spells you select an intersection, not a square, as it's starting point. Since I'm 5 feet below the ground, and I take up a 5-foot space, and I'm the source of the aura, I can pick one of the four corners of the cube I occupy which are on the surface, and have line of effect from my aura to the Barbed Devil. I don't have LoE from myself to him, but this doesn't matter, observe:


Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you donít control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.

You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spellís area, anything within that square is within the spellís area. If the spellís area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.


A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you canít see. It canít affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects donít extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burstís area defines how far from the point of origin the spellís effect extends.

Besides which I don't have to catch him in the aura, I can hit him with my positive energy ray as a standard action and dive underground as a move action with the same results. It's touch AC to my ray is only 16, a fairly easy target for a 3rd level combat character.

Kaelik
2007-12-23, 06:21 PM
Methinks the time needed to create an army of 400 allips is a bit more than is permitted in the 1 minute buff time.

Me thinks that the time it takes to buy items/find a cohort if you took Leadership/summon your animal companion/call a familiar/gain the XP to get to level six are all things that take longer then the one minute buffing period.

But that's okay because they don't take place during the buffing period, just like finding and Rebuking an Allip (and having him massacre a village) also doesn't take place in that minute.

Also, note that the Devil can never actually hit in melee an incorporeal creature, so if you can soak his 1/day abilities and have fire resist up he can't do anything.

RandomFellow
2007-12-23, 09:18 PM
To kill a Barbed Devil?
No items with a CL requirement higher than 8 can be used and no custom items.

Let's see if you optimizers can manage the classic "1 wizard!" response this time.:smallwink:

Cage match. Arena is a cylinder 200ft high and 200ft radius.
1 minute for buffing.

EDIT: You cannot take corpes or controlled undead into the arena.

Ingredients:
Conjurer 6
Scroll of Gate (DC 18 CL Check)
Take 10 CL Check Feat (Can't remember what it's name is)
Agony (+2 CL, one-use)
-----
Gate in a 16HD mob to kill the 12HD one. Fly to avoid dying.

EDIT:
Cleric wouldn't work since it can't get Arcane Mastery

Jack_Simth
2007-12-23, 09:53 PM
Ingredients:
Conjurer 6
Scroll of Gate (DC 18 CL Check)
Take 10 CL Check Feat (Can't remember what it's name is)
Agony (+2 CL, one-use)
-----
Gate in a 16HD mob to kill the 12HD one. Fly to avoid dying.

EDIT:
Cleric wouldn't work since it can't get Arcane Mastery
Note:
A Scroll of Gate has a caster level requirement of 17 - expressly out of the question for this exercise.


Not so, although that is a tricky point. Firstly there's no hard and fast rules for Auras that are SUs, but assuming they're treated as spells you select an intersection, not a square, as it's starting point. Since I'm 5 feet below the ground, and I take up a 5-foot space, and I'm the source of the aura, I can pick one of the four corners of the cube I occupy which are on the surface, and have line of effect from my aura to the Barbed Devil. I don't have LoE from myself to him, but this doesn't matter, observe:


So it doesn't say "centered on you" or similar, huh?


Besides which I don't have to catch him in the aura, I can hit him with my positive energy ray as a standard action and dive underground as a move action with the same results. It's touch AC to my ray is only 16, a fairly easy target for a 3rd level combat character.
Also, you'll need a lot of hits before he explodes:

Major positive-dominant planes go even further. A creature on a major positive-dominant plane must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid being blinded for 10 rounds by the brilliance of the surroundings. Simply being on the plane grants fast healing 5 as an extraordinary ability. In addition, those at full hit points gain 5 additional temporary hit points per round. These temporary hit points fade 1d20 rounds after the creature leaves the major positive- dominant plane. However, a creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round that its temporary hit points exceed its normal hit point total. Failing the saving throw results in the creature exploding in a riot of energy, killing it.(Emphasis added)
In order to actually kill it this way, you need to bring it's temporary HP above it's normal HP - which means you need to apply 126 temporary HP to the critter before it risks going boom ... assuming it doesn't use it's knoweledge skill on The Planes to know it needs to rip itself apart every now and again.

Also, if you're stepping up, you're only covered every other time the beast's turn comes around, as you can only move once in a turn.

Me thinks that the time it takes to buy items/find a cohort if you took Leadership/summon your animal companion/call a familiar/gain the XP to get to level six are all things that take longer then the one minute buffing period.

But that's okay because they don't take place during the buffing period, just like finding and Rebuking an Allip (and having him massacre a village) also doesn't take place in that minute.

True enough, but fortunately the edit removed such options.


Also, note that the Devil can never actually hit in melee an incorporeal creature, so if you can soak his 1/day abilities and have fire resist up he can't do anything.
At caster level 6, Energy Resistance(Fire) only gets you Fire Resistance 10 ... and the Scorching Ray can theoretically hit for 48 (critical on max damage) although it'll generally average 14 per ray. A caster level 7 scroll, potion, or wand will usually do it... but if you're incorporeal, you've got issues using items.

Kaelik
2007-12-23, 10:13 PM
True enough, but fortunately the edit removed such options.

Well this is the first time I've seen the edit, since it was obviously made in reaction to my character. I counter however with the fact that I am not taking any controlled undead into the arena, they are entering it at the command of either myself or Allip one. Not being taken in.

Of course this begs the question why he doesn't also ban animal companions, items, and all NPC classes. You ask a question you get an answer.

Any full spellcaster can fly spam some option to do damage, and fortify themselves against his two one shot abilities.

Lawful Evil Cleric/Druid/Wizard with some +1LA race that makes them immune to hold person (or +0LA) and a reserve feat wins easily.

Or a non-humanoid Warlock with Fell Flight as the only Lesser invocation.

A Pixie fighter can beat this challenge even. It's not like it's hard.

RandomFellow
2007-12-23, 10:25 PM
Oops I missed that. 0o

Ganurath
2007-12-23, 10:40 PM
I'm going with Elan from the psionic races so we can have immunity to the Hold Person magic. ("To be personel, you must be person. I iz Jagerkin, vich iz better.") He'll be Lawful Evil for immunity to the One Shot Wonders. Despite the Cha penalty, I'm liking the look of the L6 Warlock featuring the Fell Flight. However, I am not fond of Eldritch Spear, what with the Barbed Devil's Spell Resistance: With 13K, it's easy to afford an Outsider (lawful) Bane weapon of some ranged variety. Or, for the cheesier stuff, dump the lead out of your bag of holding on him and let falling damage plus weight damage cheese you the win.

Lochar
2007-12-23, 10:51 PM
Take Supernatural transformation (Eldritch Blast).

There, it bypasses Spell resistance.

Ganurath
2007-12-23, 10:55 PM
Take Supernatural transformation (Eldritch Blast).

There, it bypasses Spell resistance.I like. Is that a Feat or a Least Power?

CasESenSITItiVE
2007-12-23, 10:56 PM
i apologize for bringing it up, but someone had to.

Isn't pun-pun level 5?

Armads
2007-12-23, 10:57 PM
He's level 1 now.

GoC
2007-12-23, 11:04 PM
Jack_Simth&Ganurath: Damn. Another loss for me and my monsters. You guys are just too good.:smallannoyed:


I'm incorporeal. I move under the floor, 5 feet down and directly beneath the Barbed Devil. He's now within my positive energy aura, and gains fast healing 1. The instant this takes him over his normal max HP (ie. the first turn) he is affected as if on a positive energy dominant plane. In other words, he has to make a DC 20 fort save or explode. And if he makes it, do it again next turn again, and again, and again, every round.

If you're in a cage match it's presumed the walls are inpenetrable.

I'll be back! *shakes fist*

Lochar
2007-12-23, 11:15 PM
I like. Is that a Feat or a Least Power?

Feat from Savage Species. Take any one SLA and turn it into a SU ability.

It gains the basics of a SU ability. Save is 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha mod, ignores SR, but can no longer be used in conjunction with the different SLA modification feats like Empower SLA, Quicken SLA, or others.

Hasivel
2007-12-24, 05:53 AM
Supernatural Transformation can only be applied to innate SP abilities. Of course the definition of Innate is always debatable and YMMV, but most DMs I've had agree that this means a racial SP, not a class-gained one.

Lochar
2007-12-24, 07:24 AM
I've had DMs allow it, because the loss of not being able to use Empower, Quicken, etc SLA evens out the benefit of turning that supernatural.

Besides, it's not like it makes the warlock an even more overpowering character or anything. :P

Kaelik
2007-12-24, 01:04 PM
Supernatural Transformation can only be applied to innate SP abilities. Of course the definition of Innate is always debatable and YMMV, but most DMs I've had agree that this means a racial SP, not a class-gained one.

I'd refer you to the fact that when Wizards put out the book they wrote something to the affect that "Druids should take this to make their Wildshape Supernatural." (It was 3.0) As such, it seems pretty clear that "innate" applies to class gained abilities.