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de-trick
2007-12-24, 12:05 PM
is there anyway to cheat the vow, such as coming from a savage village with no belife in magic or money.

Woland
2007-12-24, 12:06 PM
Take a vow of wealth instead.

Toliudar
2007-12-24, 12:11 PM
is there anyway to cheat the vow, such as coming from a savage village with no belife in magic or money.

I'm not sure what you mean by "trick". The requirements of VoP seem to be that you retain, but immediately give away to a worthy cause, your share of any wealth generated, and that you make no use of items other than a stick and a spell component pouch. However you dress that up (village that believes that retained wealth is inherently unhealthy, allergic to gold, whatever) is up to you, and can lead to some flavourful alternatives to "I'm too sexy for this stuff".

The DM's I've worked with when doing a VoP character are usually very sensitive to "work-arounds" - other players holding onto magic items "for me", the casting of contingent or permanent spells on me "as a favour" - so I've never even tried them.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-24, 12:20 PM
is there anyway to cheat the vow, such as coming from a savage village with no belife in magic or money.

I'd just suggest playing a Druid from a Savage Village to reap the maximin benefits under the Vow.

One option is to house rule it and tweak the Vow benefits and requirements. Taking something like the "Maquar Crusader" PRC Code of Conduct in FRCS Shining South for the Vow of Poverty with the DM adjusting the benefits to taste for his campaign.

kamikasei
2007-12-24, 06:08 PM
is there anyway to cheat the vow, such as coming from a savage village with no belife in magic or money.

I think what you mean is, is there any way to justify your character having no concept of property, so that he can own things without considering himself to own them? To not believe in magic, so that he can use magic items without appreciating their value?

And the answer is, no. If you have taken a Vow of Poverty (a Sacred Vow, remember) you must understand what you're buying in to, what you're giving up. Otherwise you couldn't derive a benefit from it. [Scrubbed]

Merry Christmas!

Ted_Stryker
2007-12-24, 06:12 PM
is there anyway to cheat the vow, such as coming from a savage village with no belife in magic or money.
How can you take a vow of poverty if you don't have any concept of poverty?

[Scrubbed]

de-trick
2007-12-24, 06:19 PM
I think what you mean is, is there any way to justify your character having no concept of property, so that he can own things without considering himself to own them? To not believe in magic, so that he can use magic items without appreciating their value?

And the answer is, no. If you have taken a Vow of Poverty (a Sacred Vow, remember) you must understand what you're buying in to, what you're giving up. Otherwise you couldn't derive a benefit from it. [Scrubbed]

Merry Christmas!

thanks for making me feel bad, but merry Christmas. I was thinking of something like I need a pair of boots, OMG the gods gave me the gift of speed or that the vow taker came from a backwards ecomomy that thinks sticks are worth money, so you could care gold and it would not break the vow.

Jack_Simth
2007-12-24, 06:21 PM
is there anyway to cheat the vow, such as coming from a savage village with no belife in magic or money.
Well, in theory, mind....

The Vow is Supernatural in nature - which means it is suppressed within the confines of an Antimagic Field.

MobiusKlein
2007-12-24, 06:21 PM
is there anyway to cheat the vow, such as coming from a savage village with no belife in magic or money.

Sure. Just cheat. If you have already decided to cheat, it's just a matter of coming up with some justification that your targeted DM will believe. Make a good bluff roll, and you're in. Just don't pretend it's not cheating to us.

Tengu
2007-12-24, 06:25 PM
Remember that there is one thing that might stop you from cheating in such a way (or any other, actually), and it's called Your DM Ripping Your Character Sheet In Two And Hitting You With His Copy Of Book Of Exalted Deeds IN DA FACE!

Which is probably what one who tries to do that deserves.

CabbageTheif
2007-12-24, 06:29 PM
if the World values sticks more than gold,, then there will be a serious issue with inflation, the currencey would become useless, and the country would collapse. then the People living in this World would start to be tribal, and the people who are open to working together will trade. every once in a while there will be something extremley rare that is discovererd,, and because of the raity morer eggs are given for the shiney rock than the jar of milk. eventually, these shiney rocks are worth one egg each, and as the economy around these rare shiney rocks grow.... it would go right back to rare minerals.

on top of that, the vow is based upon what IS, not the flawed perception of an individual, as well as what is frivelous. if onyx is the curencey and gold is concidered useless, you still would not be allowed to have gold unless there was some specific emotional or sentimental value to it, because it has no utilitarian value. VoP is about as cheatable as olidamara himself; try, and you will either loose like anyone else, or be exceptionally clever and lose the worst of all.

bugsysservant
2007-12-24, 06:32 PM
No, not really. But if there was, this is the best I can come up with off the top of my head:

As I recall, the Vow is essentially two fold. The first is that you can't own anything of value. The second is that you have to give away anything of value to a higher cause.

The first is relatively easy to get around. You merely need someone who is willing to lend you the use of their equipment anytime you need it.

The second is harder. In order to do this and still fulfill the first clause you have to give away your things to someone who will always be willing to give them back. Also, that person must not be evil, or you break the second part of the Vow.

I would recommend playing a sorceror/druid/arcane heirophant. Upon taking the first level of Arcane Heirophant your animal companion gains the intelligence of your familiar, and so can be considered conscious of moral actions. It also retains the physical attributes of your animal companion, allowing it to potentially carry a large amount of equipment.

Whenever you acquire possessions, dedicate them to a higher cause: giving. Giving away one's possessions is in and of itself a good act, especially when given to a good creature. Thus, you can give away your possessions to your Animal Familiar as long as it promises to use them for good means. And loaning away an object to help another good creature, is also a good act, so your Animal familiar can safely loan away "it's" possessions to you, maintaining its own good alignment. Technically you never own anything, and you give away all your possessions to a higher cause, so I would technically consider the Vow fulfilled.

Shraik
2007-12-24, 06:34 PM
I thinking Tricking the Vow of Poverty results in being smitten.

Admiral Squish
2007-12-24, 06:36 PM
No, not really. But if there was, this is the best I can come up with off the top of my head:

As I recall, the Vow is essentially two fold. The first is that you can't own anything of value. The second is that you have to give away anything of value to a higher cause.

The first is relatively easy to get around. You merely need someone who is willing to lend you the use of their equipment anytime you need it.

The second is harder. In order to do this and still fulfill the first clause you have to give away your things to someone who will always be willing to give them back. Also, that person must not be evil, or you break the second part of the Vow.

I would recommend playing a sorceror/druid/arcane heirophant. Upon taking the first level of Arcane Heirophant your animal companion gains the intelligence of your familiar, and so can be considered conscious of moral actions. It also retains the physical attributes of your animal companion, allowing it to potentially carry a large amount of equipment.

Whenever you acquire possessions, dedicate them to a higher cause: giving. Giving away one's possessions is in and of itself a good act, especially when given to a good creature. Thus, you can give away your possessions to your Animal Familiar as long as it promises to use them for good means. And loaning away an object to help another good creature, is also a good act, so your Animal familiar can safely loan away "it's" possessions to you, maintaining its own good alignment. Technically you never own anything, and you give away all your possessions to a higher cause, so I would technically consider the Vow fulfilled.
Actually, there's a clause about loaning. You're not allowed to hold things for even a full turn.

Lord_Asmodeus
2007-12-24, 06:39 PM
What possible benefits could there be to justify something stupid like a vow of poverty that only a moronic self-righteous paladin would willingly do, and probably end up getting shanked for his troubles because he's not allowed to have magical armor.

Roland St. Jude
2007-12-24, 06:43 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Whatever you think of a person's ideas, this board does not permit you to attack a person personally whether by name-calling or otherwise. Please treat others with respect regardless of what you think of their ideas or desires.

Lord_Asmodeus
2007-12-24, 06:47 PM
Wait who insulted who now?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 06:48 PM
Look for the [Scrubbed]'s and you'll see.

Captain van der Decken
2007-12-24, 06:48 PM
A few posts got scrubbed, if you scroll up.

Lord_Asmodeus
2007-12-24, 06:49 PM
Ahh, for a second there I thought that I said something wrong :smalleek:

kamikasei
2007-12-24, 06:50 PM
thanks for making me feel bad, but merry Christmas.

That was supposed to be a joke, but obviously it flopped, so never mind.


I was thinking of something like I need a pair of boots, OMG the gods gave me the gift of speed or that the vow taker came from a backwards ecomomy that thinks sticks are worth money, so you could care gold and it would not break the vow.

If a person has no concept of money, or wealth, then he has no concept of poverty, so taking a Vow of Poverty where he voluntarily endures Poverty in order to end Poverty for all Poor People is a little beyond his conceptual means.

If he simply doesn't realize that something is worth money then he's a) ignorant and b) negligent.

I might allow someone to carry something that they didn't know the potential value of, but not to derive any value from it.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-24, 06:50 PM
Wait who insulted who now?
I imagine that's what the "scrubbed" redtext was about.

EDIT: Damn this thread got popular all of a sudden. Roland is so trendy...

Anyway, without getting personal, cheating the Vow of Poverty sort of defeats the entire purpose of the Sacred Vow-based feats. They're for when your character is surpassingly Good and noble, not when he or she wants to game the celestial system for free stuff.

Yami
2007-12-24, 06:51 PM
I'm afraid that the good admiral is correct. Just yesterday I was helping a friend build a druid, and we took a good long look at VoP to help balance things.

You are not allowed to ever wear more than some rags, so borrowing rings, boots, what ever, shant work. Oh, and said rags cannot be magical. You are allow a spell pouch and a simple weapon as well as a sack for a days worth of food. That is all.

What really gets me about VoP is that you cannot have loot, yet you are required to give your loot away. Does this mean that your a stuck up goody two shoes who forces the rest of your party to be your mules? Our DM thought not, but that is something you'd need to work houserules with.

You also can't ever use wands or scrolls. Which we found troublesome, as we were reduced to grabbing belts of healing for all our out of combat needs.

The designers made the feat pretty solid, so unless your DM wants some high powered saint templated antics, your probably going to have to decide between wealth and nifty loot, or the innate but sub-par bonuses.

Shraik
2007-12-24, 06:51 PM
I know how, A 100 bluff check

Rachel Lorelei
2007-12-24, 06:57 PM
The only real way to get around Vow of Poverty is to FIRST be high level and spend all your money on permanent personal improvements (like grafts, stat-boosting Tomes, etc), and THEN take the Vow. Of course, that way you don't get all the Exalted bonus feats the vow gives.

Jack_Simth
2007-12-24, 06:58 PM
What really gets me about VoP is that you cannot have loot, yet you are required to give your loot away. Does this mean that your a stuck up goody two shoes who forces the rest of your party to be your mules? Our DM thought not, but that is something you'd need to work houserules with.
Technically a houserule, but try this on for size:

Once it's determined to be part of the VoP character's share, it goes in the VoP Character's sack, and is thereafter treated as though it no longer exists.

Demented
2007-12-24, 07:06 PM
Commoner: "Hey, could you help me carry this piano up the stairs?"

Monk: "Sorry. Vow of poverty."

Commoner: "What? I'm not paying you. I mean, it's not that I don't want—"

Monk: "Vow of poverty."

Commoner: "It's not even that far..."

Monk: "Vow of poverty."

Commoner: "Fine, be that way."

Jack_Simth
2007-12-24, 07:10 PM
Commoner: "Hey, could you help me carry this piano up the stairs?"

Monk: "Sorry. Vow of poverty."

Commoner: "What? I'm not paying you. I mean, it's not that I don't wantó"

Monk: "Vow of poverty."

Commoner: "It's not even that far..."

Monk: "Vow of poverty."

Commoner: "Fine, be that way."

Yep. Technically, he's also not permitted to use a doorknob, and must instead bash down the door if he's to get through it under his own power.

Likewise, a Druid or Cleric with the Vow of Poverty is not permitted a Divine Focus (even though in the Druid's case there is no value associated with it).

The Vow needs some house-rules by way of DM reasonableness.

Solo
2007-12-24, 07:13 PM
I hear Vow of Poverty works great with Vow of Nudity.

In fact, I am going to make an NPC Succubus Sorcerer with those feats now.

This should be interesting.

Roland St. Jude
2007-12-24, 07:13 PM
...Damn this thread got popular all of a sudden. Roland is so trendy...


With your leave, this is so sigged. :smallcool:

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 07:19 PM
That succubus would certainly be unplayable, but a lot of fun to interact with.

Solo
2007-12-24, 07:21 PM
That succubus would certainly be unplayable, but a lot of fun to interact with.

No LARPing!

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 07:23 PM
I'd make a Chainmail bikini joke, but I can't stop ROFLing.

Chronicled
2007-12-24, 07:23 PM
No LARPing!

:smallbiggrin: Well played, sir. Well played.

Demented
2007-12-24, 07:24 PM
Body paint allowed?

Solo
2007-12-24, 07:26 PM
Let's just say the Grease spell will get some new uses.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 07:27 PM
We SO need a link to that thread in which we decided that monk make the perfect class for red light districts.

Neftren
2007-12-24, 07:28 PM
Okay, my take on it would be that you find a way to store the item in extradimensional space, where you don't exactly "possess" it. So probably if you can find a way to reduce the value of a Handy Haversack to 1gp, you could technically call it "worthless" and thus, you'd be able to draw any item per se and use it, returning it to the bag afterwards. Pretty easy to do if you play mostly in PbPs, since it's pretty much been determined that you only have one encounter per day. Combine that with say... a Belt of Battle (MIC) for additional actions per round, and along with Action Points (EbCS), you could theoretically reap the benefits...

That is, unless your DM goes: "Would you like it Regular, or Extra Crispy?"
Before he goes and smites you with the DM's hammer of wrath.

leperkhaun
2007-12-24, 07:29 PM
just remember the Vow has RP requirements as well as just giving up your money. Most people tend to forget that.

Lord_Asmodeus
2007-12-24, 07:30 PM
ooh I know, maybe a someone possessed by a demon, and the demon takes a Vow of Poverty (because he's nice now?) and he can use the excuse, hey IM not using any money or magical items, this body I'm possessing however... :smallbiggrin:

Solo
2007-12-24, 07:31 PM
We SO need a link to that thread in which we decided that monk make the perfect class for red light districts.

The phrase "Fists of Fury" has now taken on a completely different meaning.

BizzaroStormy
2007-12-24, 07:32 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "trick". The requirements of VoP seem to be that you retain, but immediately give away to a worthy cause, your share of any wealth generated, and that you make no use of items other than a stick and a spell component pouch. However you dress that up (village that believes that retained wealth is inherently unhealthy, allergic to gold, whatever) is up to you, and can lead to some flavourful alternatives to "I'm too sexy for this stuff".

The DM's I've worked with when doing a VoP character are usually very sensitive to "work-arounds" - other players holding onto magic items "for me", the casting of contingent or permanent spells on me "as a favour" - so I've never even tried them.

The rules allow you more than just a stick. It says 1 mon-magical, non-masterwork weapon. I dont think having a greataxe would be a problem.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 07:32 PM
As has "Flurry of Blows".

Solo
2007-12-24, 07:34 PM
As has "Flurry of Blows".

Combined with the "Tongue of Sun and Moon".

Tengu
2007-12-24, 07:34 PM
I hear Vow of Poverty works great with Vow of Nudity.


Ah, that so reminds me of the idea I already tossed at the forums some time ago - put this combination on a lookalike of one of the most charismatic people of the recent history - Winston Churchill! Well, he wouldn't be technically completely nude, though - he'd wear his usual hat. Poorly-made, of course, due to VoP.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 07:35 PM
Didn't a Cartoon Network series beat you to it? Can't remember the name, but it involved time travel.

Solo
2007-12-24, 07:37 PM
Ah, that so reminds me of the idea I already tossed at the forums some time ago - put this combination on a lookalike of one of the most charismatic people of the recent history - Winston Churchill! Well, he wouldn't be technically completely nude, though - he'd wear his usual hat. Poorly-made, of course, due to VoP.

"The Prime Minister of Great Britain has nothing to hide from the President of the United States."

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-24, 08:52 PM
With your leave, this is so sigged. :smallcool:
Go right ahead. It was just a comment on how redtext draws attention in the same way as flashing police lights do, but more complimentary.

Epic_Wizard
2007-12-24, 09:41 PM
Look basically by definition there is no way to cheat on it since it is your own intent not to since YOU made the vow.

If you want to optimize your character then by all means go for it but this really isn't the way to do it. Vow of Peace and Vow of Poverty have some synergy to them though so you could create a sort of tank that way.

A link to this should be placed somewhere where anyone can get to it from these forums to be used in these instances:

D&D 3.5 Feats Index (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf) WARNING THIS IS A 2M PDF FILE!!!!!

Look up Vow of Poverty and from the synopsis that it gives there the whole thing looks pretty air tight.

Shraik
2007-12-24, 10:04 PM
As I said, If you can Bluff God, you can cheat Vow of Poverty. Check the Epic Level hand book and the book of deities for the campaign setting, if you can beat the Highest Sense motive of the good gods, then you can cheat Vow of Poverty.

Bag_of_Holding
2007-12-24, 10:08 PM
I think you'll have to cheat your DM first.

de-trick
2007-12-24, 10:09 PM
my idea works in idea, but not crunch. Because unless the items glowing or does something completely weird. How do you know what is magic(without detect magic). Boots of speed could be like a pair of track shoes compared to cowboy boots. You would be faster in track shoes than cowboy boots, so would boots of speed make you faster, since you are allowed a outfit. But when you look on the character sheet and see boots of speed, you break the vow.

(hopefully this makes since)

but I think Ill talk to my DM, easier to explain my logic in person.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 10:15 PM
Hmm...maybe you can use Diplomacy on the DM by using Magnificent Pigments to bring the Vow of Nudity/Vow of Poverty Succubus Monk to life and using her as a bargaining chip? It should give a sizeable modifier.

Bag_of_Holding
2007-12-24, 10:16 PM
Remember, Vow of Poverty is quite strict about what you can even carry/own or even, use. Only non-masterwork, non-magical simple weapons, simple clothes that may include hat and sandals, with no magical properties; one day's worth of food and water, and a spell component pouch. While you may benefit from items used on your behalf (drinking a healing potion your friend gives you, getting buffs etc), you can never wear any magic item whatsoever.

By wearing them and benefitting from them (and continuing to wear them even after the benefit becomes apparent), will cause you to lose your vow forever, and can never retrain the feat or regain it in any way (not even through atonement).

de-trick
2007-12-24, 10:22 PM
no I mean character wise, if no magic aura is showing character wise how do you know its magic, sure I can move faster now after putting on these boots but 5 hours ago I learned to turn into a bear after I ate breakfest.

but out of character you know you put a magic item.

cupkeyk
2007-12-24, 10:27 PM
Since the Monk/Kensei is donating his money to a church anyway, can he still enchant his fist at the cost of xp?

Bag_of_Holding
2007-12-24, 10:29 PM
no I mean character wise, if no magic aura is showing character wise how do you know its magic, sure I can move faster now after putting on these boots but 5 hours ago I learned to turn into a bear after I ate breakfest.

but out of character you know you put a magic item.

Oh well, if that's your character concept, as long as your DM's fine with it, I see no problem. Actually I'm starting to think it's a brilliant idea! Think of his or her reaction when he/she finds out that he/she's beein wearing a magical item all the time! :smallbiggrin: That's gonna be real fun to role-play.

Edit:

Since the Monk/Kensei is donating his money to a church anyway, can he still enchant his fist at the cost of xp?

Mmm, replacing gp with XP would be fine in my campaign, but always ask your DM.

Ryuuk
2007-12-24, 10:32 PM
no I mean character wise, if no magic aura is showing character wise how do you know its magic, sure I can move faster now after putting on these boots but 5 hours ago I learned to turn into a bear after I ate breakfest.

but out of character you know you put a magic item.

The problem is that you also know the full limitations of the Vow out of character. You know that by not donating your WBL, you lose the Vow. IC your character might not have broken it, but regardless of how you justify it you are going against the spirit of the Vow OOC.

Douglas
2007-12-25, 01:07 AM
Since the Monk/Kensei is donating his money to a church anyway, can he still enchant his fist at the cost of xp?
Yes. The Vow applies only to material/gp wealth, not xp, and the Kensai's weapon enhancement ability doesn't cost any money regardless of the Vow.

leperkhaun
2007-12-25, 02:00 AM
no I mean character wise, if no magic aura is showing character wise how do you know its magic, sure I can move faster now after putting on these boots but 5 hours ago I learned to turn into a bear after I ate breakfest.

but out of character you know you put a magic item.

because if you are a druid, and you turn into a bear, thats something druids can do, its not unexpected.

If you put on some boots and all of a sudden you can jump 20 feet. You take them off and you cant, you put them on and you can...... willfull ignorance and stupidity in character would defenitly break the Vow.

the thing to remember is that the CHARACTER does NOT want to break the vow. the Character does not want to cheat out of the vow......the players do. Like i said before the vows have a heavy RP requirement that most people forget.

In character choosing to pick a Vow isnt like a fighter wanting to learn how to shield slam or trip someone, to the character the vow isnt a weapon for gain. The Vow represents a fundamental morality (for lack of a better work) of the character and is chosen not because the character wants neat powers, but because they belive its the RIGHT thing to do.


Since the Monk/Kensei is donating his money to a church anyway, can he still enchant his fist at the cost of xp?

well i could see it. the description of the Vow mentions that for expensive matrieal components you can trade xp instead of useing the component. It would not be unreasonable to extend this to other things.

Another way around this that your DM could work into..... a druid gives you a permenant (the fang enchantment or something, cant remember the name) as a reward for helping out because the druid doesnt have a bunch of money. The church decides to reward you for your selfless service and as a way so that you can better help, and enchants your fists for you.

Mark Hall
2007-12-25, 02:09 AM
You can cheat the Vow of Poverty so long as your GM allows you to.

Chronicled
2007-12-25, 03:14 AM
You can cheat the Vow of Poverty so long as your GM allows you to.

You can also acquire a +20 sword at level 1 so long as your GM allows you to.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-12-25, 05:24 AM
thanks for making me feel bad, but merry Christmas. I was thinking of something like I need a pair of boots, OMG the gods gave me the gift of speed or that the vow taker came from a backwards ecomomy that thinks sticks are worth money, so you could care gold and it would not break the vow.


I favor granting the Vow of Poverty player up to several "limited" Ancestral "Relic" feats which only work for him or her without needing a "Masterwork" item based on the wealth the VoP PC gives away and which don't "Stack" with the VoP bonus benefits (Armor, saves or enhancement bonuses). This burns up a few VoP feats, helps ensure VoP charity and addresses some VoP PC concerns.

The first VoP feat can be a Minor relic that can be supernaturally enhanced up to 8,000 gp from donating treasure to other organizations, religions or the needy. A second more powerful relic can be supernaturally enhanced up to 16,000 gp with another VoP feat. A third relic can be enhanced up to 24,000 gp. A fourth relic up to 32,000 gp requires Two VoP feats. After the PC's death these items usually become minor holy relics of the PCs church or religion.

kamikasei
2007-12-25, 03:46 PM
no I mean character wise, if no magic aura is showing character wise how do you know its magic, sure I can move faster now after putting on these boots but 5 hours ago I learned to turn into a bear after I ate breakfest.

but out of character you know you put a magic item.

In character, why do you have new boots? Aren't you supposed to be poor? Where did these boots come from? The possibility that they're magic or just expensive should occur to any conscientious Vow-maker.

Stam
2007-12-25, 04:23 PM
"Cheating" the VoP is effectively ignoring the spirit of the rules while (possibly) following the letter of them.

The Book of Exalted Deeds was written with mature audiences in mind for a reason. Roleplaying a VoPov or VoNV character runs contrary to most of the steriotypes of D&D gaming (namely, kill things and take their stuff) and takes a very grown-up kind of player to pull off properly.

Playing someone who searches for every tiny loophole of the vow...is rather obviously not a character who has taken a vow of poverty/nonviolence.

(I recall seeing something a ways back about whether or not carrying or owning something valuable without knowing was breaking the vow? IMHO, no. But upon identifying that it is something of value, a properly-played VoP character would dispose of it accordingly.)

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-25, 04:27 PM
Sadly, it was full of "LG is the goodest alignment and CE the worst" kind of bull. And because of that, the only good thing that came from it, is the Vow of Nudity/Vow of Poverty Succubus Monk. And when that's the best you get from a book, you know you've fallen low.

Hawriel
2007-12-25, 05:14 PM
Well you could take real life examples on how to cheat the vow of poverty. In some denominations of some religions in are world priests take the vow of poverty. (keeping this very general so as not to incer rath of admins) Yet many of these priests still seem to live in big houses or fancy apartments, have nice clothing big TVs, very fancy bling jewelry. All of which is conveniently provided by the church to give them livable conditions.

Or dont cheat and interpret realisticly. There is monitary materialistic value and there is real practical culteral value. If your said cleric, knight what ever found boots of the north for example witch do have a monitary value in gold and my fetch a nice price from some shue fetish merchant does the pov person need to give them up? They are useful. They keep the cleric worm out in the cold. Maybe god wanted him to have it because he is rewarding the cleric for his faithfulness. Or He needs the boots for a time. When he no longer needs them he can give it to his church or an orphan if he feals the time has come for him to do so. Same with jewelry maybe the silver medalion the cleric is wearing is a gift from some villager. If so than why does he have to give it up. The cleric does not value the medalion for its materialism but for the reason it was given, friendship, respect and maybe the in consideration that said villiger made it for him.

Demented
2007-12-25, 06:41 PM
Frankly, being able to retain your spell component pouch is cheating the vow of poverty! :smalltongue:

Homebrew For Thought
New Vow of Poverty:
You may possess anything you like. However, if it is of value, you must give it to a good cause at every opportunity, and may never make use of it yourself, save for those items that cost 1sp or less. You may never use an item for trade, buying or selling.

Remember: Anything of value... including the shirt on your back, the boots on your feet, or the handy haversack containing all your cool stuff. Also note good cause. Pestering someone with "gifts" (I found this rotten toad for you, sir!) isn't a good cause. Someone can very well refuse your gift, but if they do, you may want to ask yourself if it was a good cause to begin with.

You can use items that are not in your possession, which allows for doorknobs, switches, ropes, ladders, already placed grappling hooks, or whatever else. You can even serve as a mule. (Face it: They're using you, not the other way around.) After all, labor is a possession you can give...

Yes, you may end up walking into town being a rich, gilded son of a gun, but you'll walk out a poor pauper. It's all good.

When in doubt of an item's value, appraise! If you undervalue it to where it is worth 1 sp or less, it's fair game until someone corrects you. (This applies mainly to barrels of ale.) Items which value are inestimable, are not fair game. "Don't touch that, Johnny. It's expensive." Component pouches are not 1 sp. Sorry. Get Eschew Materials. For weapons, you're stuck with clubs, quarterstaves, slings, and improvised junk.[/size]

Note that there's a fuzzy grey area between giving and recieving, and trade. It's not such a big deal: Aside from hunks of cheese, you can't use it anyway.

Sir_Chivalry
2007-12-25, 07:31 PM
There is one way to avoid the effects of Vow of Poverty

It's radical.


BE EVIL AND DON'T TAKE IT

Tequila Sunrise
2007-12-25, 07:49 PM
is there anyway to cheat the vow, such as coming from a savage village with no belife in magic or money.

Why would you want to? :smallconfused: Is this just a hypothetical question or are intentionally trying to ruin a game you're in?

de-trick
2007-12-26, 06:00 AM
hypothetical,yes with thoughts of making a character later if a proved. SO basically I'm wrong and right. That making a vow is a scared, and you should not try and find a loop hole. But as long as you have a reason why you have the item, you can wear it. And until you find a worthy cause you can use the item(eg traveling with CN's or have different moral values than party they wouldn't qualify) like if traveling in dungeon with only monsters and the party featuring Vow of poverty Dan you can use items that you find.

one last discussion about vow of poverty, What if the character who has the vow came from the absolute poorest imaginable place, A place where a normal bum is better of than the vow taker before he took the vow? Since the vow taker was worse off would he consider him a needy cause?

Ryuuk
2007-12-26, 07:07 AM
No, the Vow taker wouldn't be able to consider himself the needy cause. At least, it doesn't make sense to me, "My life sucks, therefore I will forgo all material possesions and give them to someone who is in greater need of them, me"?

If he's from a place you described, then everyone around him would be considered a needy cause.

de-trick
2007-12-26, 07:33 AM
no I was saying like a vow of poverty taker say from a 3rd world country would not think a bum in a first world country. Right

Om
2007-12-26, 07:48 AM
Well you could take real life examples on how to cheat the vow of poverty. In some denominations of some religions in are world priests take the vow of poverty. (keeping this very general so as not to incer rath of admins) Yet many of these priests still seem to live in big houses or fancy apartments, have nice clothing big TVs, very fancy bling jewelry. All of which is conveniently provided by the church to give them livable conditions.The "conversion of manners", ie the vow of poverty, is only explicitly undertaken by monks following the Benedictine Code. Very few members of the regular clergy take such a vow.


no I was saying like a vow of poverty taker say from a 3rd world country would not think a bum in a first world country. RightPoverty is poverty. People who take such vows are forbidden from owning private property of their own and dedicate all their world goods to noble causes (which does not include themselves). That holds true regardless of the average level of wealth in the country that they happen to find themselves.

WhyBother
2007-12-26, 03:09 PM
As has been said before, I agree that if you're trying to cheat the vow, you should not be trying to take the vow.

This occurs to me: suppose you pick up a simple weapon, then try to get rid of it upon inspecting it and finding it too valuable, only to find it has welded itself to your hand (that is, it is cursed). If you are not able to remove the curse yourself, does this RAW break your vow, since it will take a turn to call in a friend to rid you of the cursed weapon? I remember Vow of Chastity has a clause for atonement if the the vow is broken through no fault of your own (as they so delicately put it); is there a similar clause for Vow of Poverty?

Brickwall
2007-12-26, 03:21 PM
Okay, two questions regarding VoP:

1. If all of your clothes (rags, w/e) were burned off in, say, an acid pit, but the only clothes anyone had to spare were the underpants of +5 schwinging (totally random), would you be forced to go naked?

2. If you had a magic item that created wealth somehow, and had no other function, and you were the only one who could use it to give wealth to others (so, in effect, giving it away means keeping anyone else from getting the value), would you be allowed to use it on the contingency that you gave the wealth away, or would you have to give it away? Letter of the law or spirit of the law?

Telonius
2007-12-26, 03:28 PM
Well you could take real life examples on how to cheat the vow of poverty. In some denominations of some religions in are world priests take the vow of poverty. (keeping this very general so as not to incer rath of admins) Yet many of these priests still seem to live in big houses or fancy apartments, have nice clothing big TVs, very fancy bling jewelry. All of which is conveniently provided by the church to give them livable conditions.



I recall a joke along those lines. The punchline was, "If this be poverty, then bring on chastity!"

JMobius
2007-12-26, 03:29 PM
Letter of the law or spirit of the law?

It does come down to whether the GM in question favors the letter or the spirit, in all cases when it comes to VoP. As has been said, the only way you're going to manage to 'cheat' the VoP is if the GM favors the letter.

I favor the spirit, myself. :smallsmile:

Telonius
2007-12-26, 03:32 PM
Okay, two questions regarding VoP:

1. If all of your clothes (rags, w/e) were burned off in, say, an acid pit, but the only clothes anyone had to spare were the underpants of +5 schwinging (totally random), would you be forced to go naked?



The acid pit actually happened to a half-drow VoP monk of mine. The answer given by the group was yes; on the grounds of, it was funny.

seedjar
2007-12-26, 03:36 PM
Not enough time to read the whole thread, so maybe this has been suggested, but what about leadership? When I first read Toliudar's first reply, I thought to myself, "Well, it is a cheap shot to give stuff to other PCs to hold onto, but what if you already had a generalist in the party who took care of all that stuff by nature of their own character design?" It's still cheap, but if I recall correctly, there's nothing in the rules for VoP that stops you from having a well-equipped cohort. You could be some noble, tottering old sage with an apprentice that constantly worries about and looks after you. (Perhaps because he's not privvy to the buttkicked-ness of the VoP rules.)
~Joe

Ne0
2007-12-26, 03:47 PM
Generally, cheating the VoP is pretty much impossible. There's no loophole whatsoever by RAW - in fact, if you follow it by RAW, there's a whole lot of needless complications such as previously named -, and if you ask for interpretation, your DM will call it the munchkinning it is and say "No". No rules-lawyering, no munchkin.
A useful tip is the Ancestral Relic feat in the same book.

Also, the answer to most of everyone's questions about the Vop:
By RAW, no, but any sensible DM would allow as long as your not taking advantage of the situation, or start stretching it.

Mark Hall
2007-12-26, 03:53 PM
You can also acquire a +20 sword at level 1 so long as your GM allows you to.

Precisely. Munchkinism (i.e. taking flaws without paying for them) is only allowable when your GM colludes with you.


This occurs to me: suppose you pick up a simple weapon, then try to get rid of it upon inspecting it and finding it too valuable, only to find it has welded itself to your hand (that is, it is cursed). If you are not able to remove the curse yourself, does this RAW break your vow, since it will take a turn to call in a friend to rid you of the cursed weapon? I remember Vow of Chastity has a clause for atonement if the the vow is broken through no fault of your own (as they so delicately put it); is there a similar clause for Vow of Poverty?

I would allow the character to keep the Vow, though it would be suppressed until the weapon were gotten rid of.

Indon
2007-12-26, 04:46 PM
You might want to bring up to your DM that perhaps the powerful church you've tithed 100,000+ GP to (even if they weren't powerful when you started, they are now!) has somewhat of a friendly disposition towards you, and may be willing to offer some services to you and your party for free.

As far as I'm concerned, that's an invisible perk to the Vow of Poverty - It makes perfect sense that you've made friends from giving away piles and piles of gold to the cause of Good. Your reputation spreading (among Good or Neutral lands and peoples) even faster than your average adventurer, and so on.

Aquillion
2007-12-31, 01:27 PM
because if you are a druid, and you turn into a bear, thats something druids can do, its not unexpected.

If you put on some boots and all of a sudden you can jump 20 feet. You take them off and you cant, you put them on and you can...... willfull ignorance and stupidity in character would defenitly break the Vow.

the thing to remember is that the CHARACTER does NOT want to break the vow. the Character does not want to cheat out of the vow......the players do. Like i said before the vows have a heavy RP requirement that most people forget.
So... Make a character with an int and wis of 3, whose background is that you grew up in a hovel, never encountered magic or wealth before at any time in your life, and aren't even sure what it is, but became morally opposed to both after hearing about them third-hand or something, and took your oath.

You don't know anything about comparative value between items; you only know about magic and wealth through stories, and you therefore assume that every magical or valuable item glows with the light of a thousand suns and speaks in a booming godlike voice. When the belt of giant strength you find doesn't, you assume it's nonmagical and worthless, no matter what cheap tricks it might somehow do.

You were also raised to never trust anyone outside of your village (which has conveniently burned down, killing everyone but you) when it comes to value or magic. No matter how many times people tell you that an item is magical, you remain steadyfast in your earnest, 100% serious belief that they are either pulling your leg or trying to cheat you; you know, with a fanatical religious certainty, that every real magical or non-worthless item glows with the light of a thousand suns and speaks with the booming voice of god. Until you encounter such an item (so you can reject it, as your oath requires) you'll just collect as much of the worthless non-magical plus-whatever junk you can so it doesn't cause problems for other people who don't have your understanding of what magic really means.

Also, you don't know anything about money, but assume it is a form of liquid. And you like collecting these round worthless shiny things, which your friends occasionally borrow for whatever reason.

pendell
2007-12-31, 02:07 PM
Not having red the BoED ... Would this work?

Join a church or commune or what not. Donate all your money and property to the church. In exchange, the church allows you use of equipment on an as-needed basis from the common pool.

Let's say, e.g., you find a pair of boots of speed.

You donate it to the local chapter of Our Lady Of Religious Order.

The local priest accepts it, signs it into the books as Church property, then hands it over to you, instructing you to act as custodian of it. Thus you can possess and make use of the item not as if it were your own, but as if it's been issued to you by the church for a specific purpose, e.g., slay the BBEG.

Of course, for this to work it has to be a *real* church, and not just a mailbox you opened for tax purposes. This has the following game effects:

1) The church hierarchy (i.e. the DM) can set limits as to how, and when, you can use their equipment. They might decide *not* to let you use it for a given purpose. They might decide that random NPC needs it more. This shouldn't hurt the DM's feelings, as you're effectively giving *him* control over what you can and cannot do with the equipment.

2) The church hierarchy (i.e., the DM) might decide that, in order for you to use this equipment for the purpose you intend it, you need to do some chores first. At this point your DM is rubbing his hands with glee, because this provision has 'side quest' written all over it.

3) You have to give the equipment up if a properly authorized representative of the church asks for it, or if the terms of use expire. Keeping it then becomes both a violation of the VOP *and* theft, with appropriate penalties.

========
Keep in mind the backdrop to the real-world vow of poverty; it only works if there's a social system in place that will provide for the needs of the mendicant, such as a monastery or a charitable patron, who will provide the things our impoverished person needs as they need them. Very few real-world people with VOP make a go of it completely on their own -- they are dependent on someone else to support them, whether that be through alms or through communal living or what not.

Played right, this can be a win-win for the player *and* the DM

-- The player gets use of equipment and so forth they could not normally access while under a vow of poverty, and possibly additional equipment the church has acquired that the player has never seen. In exchange, the player has to give up all sense of ownership to this communal property, and eventually either hand it on or hand it back.

-- The DM wins, because she now has a mechanism to dictate the inventory
of the character; if the party has acquired too much loot, the church proves a handy vacuum cleaner for bringing it back down to something reasonable for the campaign. It also provides for the short-term loan of equipment that is necessary for taking down the BBEG but the DM wouldn't want the party to have on a permanent basis. In addition, since the DM can attach conditions to the possession of said equipment, this is a rich source of plot hooks and side quests, etc.


I guess this needs to be said: Anything you do with the Vow of Poverty has to be done with the agreement and consent of the DM, which means you'll have to give her some advantage out of the deal as well. Trying to put something over via letter-of-the -law can result in the swift application of rule 0 and RFED.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Epic_Wizard
2007-12-31, 02:10 PM
As I said, If you can Bluff God, you can cheat Vow of Poverty. Check the Epic Level hand book and the book of deities for the campaign setting, if you can beat the Highest Sense motive of the good gods, then you can cheat Vow of Poverty.

Except that it isn't really the Gods granting you the bonuses it's really Karma. There is no religious requirement to the Vow or any of the prerequisites so its benefits aren't divine in origin and you can't Bluff Karma.


"Cheating" the VoP is effectively ignoring the spirit of the rules while (possibly) following the letter of them.

The Book of Exalted Deeds was written with mature audiences in mind for a reason. Roleplaying a VoPov or VoNV character runs contrary to most of the steriotypes of D&D gaming (namely, kill things and take their stuff) and takes a very grown-up kind of player to pull off properly.

Playing someone who searches for every tiny loophole of the vow...is rather obviously not a character who has taken a vow of poverty/nonviolence.

(I recall seeing something a ways back about whether or not carrying or owning something valuable without knowing was breaking the vow? IMHO, no. But upon identifying that it is something of value, a properly-played VoP character would dispose of it accordingly.)

I fully support this interpretation of the word Mature in the Book of Exalted Deeds.


As has been said before, I agree that if you're trying to cheat the vow, you should not be trying to take the vow.

This occurs to me: suppose you pick up a simple weapon, then try to get rid of it upon inspecting it and finding it too valuable, only to find it has welded itself to your hand (that is, it is cursed). If you are not able to remove the curse yourself, does this RAW break your vow, since it will take a turn to call in a friend to rid you of the cursed weapon? I remember Vow of Chastity has a clause for atonement if the the vow is broken through no fault of your own (as they so delicately put it); is there a similar clause for Vow of Poverty?

*agrees with Disclaimer*

Yes you would lose the use of the Vow but because it is through no fault of your own you can atone for it through the Atonement spell.


Okay, two questions regarding VoP:

1. If all of your clothes (rags, w/e) were burned off in, say, an acid pit, but the only clothes anyone had to spare were the underpants of +5 schwinging (totally random), would you be forced to go naked?

2. If you had a magic item that created wealth somehow, and had no other function, and you were the only one who could use it to give wealth to others (so, in effect, giving it away means keeping anyone else from getting the value), would you be allowed to use it on the contingency that you gave the wealth away, or would you have to give it away? Letter of the law or spirit of the law?

1. That is sort of a DM's discretion thing but which ever way it goes you would have to give away that item at the earliest possible time.

2. Again DM's discretion and this could potentially give you an interesting character and at the same time obviously precludes the synergy with the Vow of Peace so generally I would say yes if I were DM'ing and the character could create a nice back plot to go with it. I would probably attach some string to it though such as having to use the weapon to champion the cause of the poor or something like that.


So... Make a character with an int and wis of 3, whose background is that you grew up in a hovel, never encountered magic or wealth before at any time in your life, and aren't even sure what it is, but became morally opposed to both after hearing about them third-hand or something, and took your oath.

You don't know anything about comparative value between items; you only know about magic and wealth through stories, and you therefore assume that every magical or valuable item glows with the light of a thousand suns and speaks in a booming godlike voice. When the belt of giant strength you find doesn't, you assume it's nonmagical and worthless, no matter what cheap tricks it might somehow do.

You were also raised to never trust anyone outside of your village (which has conveniently burned down, killing everyone but you) when it comes to value or magic. No matter how many times people tell you that an item is magical, you remain steadfast in your earnest, 100% serious belief that they are either pulling your leg or trying to cheat you; you know, with a fanatical religious certainty, that every real magical or non-worthless item glows with the light of a thousand suns and speaks with the booming voice of god. Until you encounter such an item (so you can reject it, as your oath requires) you'll just collect as much of the worthless non-magical plus-whatever junk you can so it doesn't cause problems for other people who don't have your understanding of what magic really means.

Also, you don't know anything about money, but assume it is a form of liquid. And you like collecting these round worthless shiny things, which your friends occasionally borrow for whatever reason.

*cough*THIS IS MUNCHKINNING!!!!!*cough*cough*

As a DM I would say: 'Okay but by that same logic your character sees no value in those objects and therefore doesn't use them or spend them himself and if someone else sees value in them he would give them to them under the Vow of Poverty.'

Seriously people this is a VOW not something that you should really be trying to Munchkin your way out of. The Book of Exalted Deeds is meant to create playable characters that are far outside the norms of D&D and at the same time at interesting Role playing effects. In the end Rule 0 and a bolt of blue lightning are at the heart of this discussion so I vote that we just end it now.

Aquillion
2007-12-31, 02:27 PM
*cough*THIS IS MUNCHKINNING!!!!!*cough*cough*

As a DM I would say: 'Okay but by that same logic your character sees no value in those objects and therefore doesn't use them or spend them himself and if someone else sees value in them he would give them to them under the Vow of Poverty.'Nonsense, don't tell me what my character thinks! :smalltongue:

My character sees no monetary value in these objects, definitely, but he is also convinced that the pursuit of wealth and magic items is inherently evil and bad (hence the vow). If someone else mistakenly sees value in them, that will only make my character even more convinced that he should keep all these worthless items for himself; it would be cruel and immoral to feed other people's harmful delusions by enabling them in their self-destructive pursuit of worthless trinkets. My character, who is enlightened by his complete and total rejection of magical objects and wealth, can carry these cheap, fake, crude non-magic items safely; but other people would be at risk.


Likewise, while I know that these objects are cheap and worthless, I am a humble and simple-minded person; I would never refuse to use a simple tool that is put in front of me, just because it isn't one of those horrible 'magic' things people keep talking about. If I find a bag that is so poorly, crudely-designed that its space inside doesn't even match its space outside, well... I know a lesser person would just throw it away, but by jove I'll find a use for it yet!

TK-Squared
2007-12-31, 03:03 PM
Use the Magic of Incarnum book and feel happy as you cheat your Vow of Poverty.

tyckspoon
2007-12-31, 03:05 PM
@Aquillion: If you can sell a DM on that, good on yer. Doesn't work for the Vow. Magic has intrinsic value in D&D, whether a character recognizes it or not; your example would be of a character with a very unusual mindset, but mechanically not a Vow of Poverty.

Necromas
2007-12-31, 03:43 PM
I hope we can all agree that loopholing the vow is not something you actually want to do, since it would incur the worst of a DMs wrath.

seedjar
2007-12-31, 03:50 PM
Donate all your money and property to the church. In exchange, the church allows you use of equipment on an as-needed basis from the common pool.

I think that the rules of VoP specifically say that you can't give an item to someone and then 'borrow' it back. It doesn't matter if you believe that you own said valuable - it's having it in your possession and/or making use of it. Can't say for sure without the book in front of me, though.

Aquillion, I like your idea about a character that doesn't believe things are magical. I doubt it really circumvents the VoP rules, but it sounds fun to play. "Hey, this lizard has some extra legs!" "Don't look in it's eyes! It has a magical gaze!" "Yeah right, you said those nice old ladies in the swamp were magical too, and I don't remember anything bad coming of that..."

~Joe

snoopy13a
2008-01-01, 12:02 AM
The "conversion of manners", ie the vow of poverty, is only explicitly undertaken by monks following the Benedictine Code. Very few members of the regular clergy take such a vow.

Poverty is poverty. People who take such vows are forbidden from owning private property of their own and dedicate all their world goods to noble causes (which does not include themselves). That holds true regardless of the average level of wealth in the country that they happen to find themselves.

Most religious orders, both clergy and lay people, have a vow of poverty (most clergy are not members of religious orders and do not take this vow). They do not own any possessions and any salary they may earn (such as if they are a college professor, nurse, teacher, etc) goes to the religous order. However, they can be assigned cars and other possessions by their order if needed for their occupation.

During history, some orders became corrupt and the members lived a lavish lifestyle from the order's funds despite the members techinically not owning anything as indivuduals. I think that even today, different orders differ on their interpretation of "poverty".

I suppose the DnD version could be used somewhat like the contemporary vows of poverty. For instance, a paladin who made this vow would be outfitted by his or her religous organization with armor, sword, shield, food, horse etc. The paladin wouldn't own the equipment and would be obilged to return it if asked. He or she would turn over all their gained loot to the organization. This would also allow paladins in the mold of the medieval military religious orders (i.e. Knights Templar) that appear to be the inspiration for the paladin class in general.

EvilElitest
2008-01-01, 12:43 AM
We SO need a link to that thread in which we decided that monk make the perfect class for red light districts.

Oh yea GODS MY EYES!!!!!!!!!!! OH GODS, THEY BURN


nice idea though
from
EE

MammonAzrael
2008-01-01, 02:09 AM
Most religious orders, both clergy and lay people, have a vow of poverty (most clergy are not members of religious orders and do not take this vow). They do not own any possessions and any salary they may earn (such as if they are a college professor, nurse, teacher, etc) goes to the religous order. However, they can be assigned cars and other possessions by their order if needed for their occupation.

Most religious orders don't have a omnipotent god literally looking over their shoulder (the DM) and clearly and well enforced rules of physics/mystics defined at the outset. :smallbiggrin:

In my opinion, any form of negotiating with a VoP is breaking the spirit, which will immediately void the vow. But since I'm not your DM, good luck with how he rules it.

As for the Item of Infinite Wealth : I'd rule that, if you don't give it away, and use it, you're breaking your VoP, and thus lose all benefits. If you are devoted to your own path of enlightenment ignoring the material, you'll abandon the item. If you took the vow to aid others, then in keeping with the spirit of the character, you should willingly and happily sacrifice the benefits VoP offers for the gift of help so many others.

Emperor Demonking
2008-01-01, 11:48 AM
You could make you own charity that's dedicated to protecting people from monsters. How do they do that? They gibe the money to the party.

lord_khaine
2008-01-01, 12:06 PM
im pretty sure its mentioned under vop that you cant donate to party members.

Prophaniti
2008-01-01, 12:14 PM
As a DM, I would say any method of funneling the money back to you or your party would constitute a violation of the vow. That's just me, though, I can be pretty strict on stuff like that. I think with any vow that grants you abilities, especially one tied to a religion, it's the spirit of the vow, not the letter. ex: if you give up the money, then one of the people who ended up with it gives it, of their own volition, to a party member (perhaps in thanks for saving them from some monster), this would not be a violation. Setting up a pyramid scheme or false, convoluted charity would be.

Irreverent Fool
2008-01-01, 12:32 PM
This whole thread is why somebody came up with inevitables.

Wolfwood2
2008-01-01, 03:32 PM
I have nothing but contempt for the "spirit" of the Vow of Poverty. In my mind, it was a huge mistake to put the concept in the middle of the Book of Exalted Deeds. Gives folks entirely the wrong idea.

It's simple. A lot of people don't like the fact that D&D 3.5 requires you to be loaded down with magical items to have an effective character. They want their PC's strength to come from himself, not the items some spellcaster crafted for him.

The obvious solution is to introduce a means by which the PC gets bonuses that are on par with those of magical items. In return, the PC doesn't get to benefit from magic items. Simple. Clean. Elegant.

Then that simple idea gets all tangled and wrapped up in being Exalted Good and not having any wealth at once. Bad.

What if I want to play a character who isn't dependent on magic items but does own a large townhouse? Why is that bad? Why should a PC be tightly constrained by the flavor behind Vow of Poverty when the mechanics (stripped away from alignment-based stuff) are perfectly suitable for a wide variety of character concepts?

Playing a character who does not depend on magic items should not mean having to play a character who is poor. There's no reason for that restriction.

seedjar
2008-01-01, 08:29 PM
I'm guess that the behavior restrictions on VoP come from the fact that it's in a book called "Book of Exalted Deeds." Nowhere in VoP does it say you can't homebrew similar mechanics into a character with different flavor. But I don't think it would make as much sense, thematically, to make a feat called Vow of Poverty that didn't model goodie-goodie hermit types, especially since that's the theme of the entire book.
I agree with you that the necessity of magical items in 3.5 is silly-bordering-on-idiotic, but that's what Rule 0 is for. As for why such rules haven't been introduced elsewhere, I'd guess it's a checks-and-balances type of thing. It seems to me like it would be easy (/easier) to break/abuse a feat that is VoP by-the-numbers without behavioral restrictions. As it was said earlier in the thread, BoED is labeled as "mature audiences only" because a lot of the content introduced in it explicitly trusts that the DM and players are mature enough gamers to not break their own game using it.
~Joe

Epic_Wizard
2008-01-01, 09:28 PM
I hope we can all agree that loopholing the vow is not something you actually want to do, since it would incur the worst of a DMs wrath.


This whole thread is why somebody came up with inevitables.

The previous 2 are "QUOTED FOR TRUTH!!!!! DUN DUN DUNNNNNN"

Seriously what a lot of people forget in a discussion like this is that D&D is organized so that there is an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omni'whatever else he wants to be' being-otherwise known as the Dungeon Master-who runs the game and serves as a mitigating influence between a creature who manages to roll max damage on a Fireball and decapitate 3 PC's with a Vorpal Sword and Great Cleave and the PC's who all rolled 1's on their reflex saves and initiative.

By that same token however the DM stands between the devious players and the helpless monsters who don't have access to the rulebooks and certainly don't have access to forums. If you look through the rules 'Rule 0' is built in at a fundamental level for the fun and benefit of everyone involved.

In 'reality' a character trying to become pun-pun would be struck down as soon as their ability scores put them on a level that would even remotely threaten an opposing deity's power or worshipers.

The same goes for the Vow of Poverty which, as I pointed out before, isn't necessarily from some divine source; it is simply Karma, the character's own commitment to the Vow, and other unknowable forces (like a number 2 pencil on a character sheet) that grant him the bonuses and in the end this entire discussion is going to come down to 'if you can swing that idea to your DM them be my guest (and/but) I (would/wouldn't) allow it.'

On that note does anyone else feel that we should just let this thread die?