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GoC
2007-12-24, 08:37 PM
In the Battle of the Earths (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67517) thread the characters on the FR material plane are battling Tolkein's Middle Earth and are losing!
We need some people with lots of FR and D&D optimization knowledge to show that FR is the higher powered world!

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 08:40 PM
Bring out the epic bartenders, and have the epic spellcasters create a spell that lets them destroy Middle earth whole!

Or bring Incantatrix's.

Edit: That aside, if you can make any portals from Middle Earth be redirected to Undermountain, you'll win lots of time and cause casualties. Also consider sending them to the tundra, and paying the thayan mages to involve them in the war. If you can get Drow to have a go at the elves, go for it too.

de-trick
2007-12-24, 08:50 PM
bring out the gods, times of troubles wuld make them on faerun. Or bring out Elminster, Drizzts, Queen of evermeet, Evermeet army, Rashimen beserkers, a couple great wyrm dragons, and thats the start.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 08:52 PM
Or, bring out the most powerful being ever, which can exist naturally only on FR:

Pun-Pun.

GoC
2007-12-24, 08:58 PM
bring out the gods, times of troubles wuld make them on faerun. Or bring out Elminster, Drizzts, Queen of evermeet, Evermeet army, Rashimen beserkers, a couple great wyrm dragons, and thats the start.

I don't know about any of those!:smalleek:
Couldt you present your case in the thread?

Azerian Kelimon: Heh. Unfortunately a "no omnipotent beings" rule is in effect.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 09:02 PM
Hey, if Franklin can play, why can't ol P?

In any case, if that's not allowed, use one epic spell to bring the Mortiverse to you. He's just that dang powerful, though good luck making him leave.

GoC
2007-12-24, 09:09 PM
Hey, if Franklin can play, why can't ol P?

In any case, if that's not allowed, use one epic spell to bring the Mortiverse to you. He's just that dang powerful, though good luck making him leave.

Franklin wasn't allowed either.
Which epic spell?:smalltongue:

Solo
2007-12-24, 09:33 PM
Cast Major Creation and summon Antimatter onto Middle Earth.

It's in my sig.

ocato
2007-12-24, 09:35 PM
Well, middle earth is a really, really low magic setting. So try sending some well made wizards at them. Show Gandalf a little competition, cast some fireballs, a cloudkill or two, maybe teleport around some. Hell, I think the scene right before Moria proves that Black Tentacles is capable of giving the fellowship a run for their money, imagine if they were getting sneak attacked and/or spike chained the whole time as well?

Renegade Paladin
2007-12-24, 09:35 PM
In the Battle of the Earths (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67517) thread the characters on the FR material plane are battling Tolkein's Middle Earth and are losing!
We need some people with lots of FR and D&D optimization knowledge to show that FR is the higher powered world!
But it isn't. The Imperium of Man would glass/virus bomb/totally destroy Abeir-Toril before any of the inhabitants even knew what was going on.

I mean, it's certainly higher powered than Middle Earth, but in the context of that thread it doesn't even matter because of how much they're both outclassed by both Coruscant and Holy Terra.

AlterForm
2007-12-24, 10:23 PM
Wouldn't Fly + Protection from Arrows(archers) + Contingent Teleport(dragons/etc) beat anything ME could throw at a FR mage? And what if said mage got epic levels? :smallamused:

Azukius
2007-12-24, 10:25 PM
In the Battle of the Earths thread the characters on the FR material plane are battling Tolkein's Middle Earth and are losing!
We need some people with lots of FR and D&D optimization knowledge to show that FR is the higher powered world!


there loosing cause they just cant compare to gods and demi-gods (maiar and valar)

if you take those away then ME would (sadly) lose.

de-trick
2007-12-24, 10:28 PM
But it isn't. The Imperium of Man would glass/virus bomb/totally destroy Abeir-Toril before any of the inhabitants even knew what was going on.
.

Faerun has a space army if we got dragons from faerun to krynn, we can send dragons to attack the deathstar.

Renegade Paladin
2007-12-24, 10:36 PM
Faerun has a space army if we got dragons from faerun to krynn, we can send dragons to attack the deathstar.
This doesn't even make any sense.

First, Krynn doesn't even enter into the equation.

Second, who the heck said anything about the Death Star?

Third, dragons need to breathe.

Fourth, even if they didn't and the Death Star was somehow present, they couldn't do anything significant to damage it, at least not in time to prevent it from firing.

de-trick
2007-12-24, 10:54 PM
1)No krynn doesn't but 3 faerun dragon went through space somehow and got to krynn, meaning dragons can go in space(could have been through magic)

2)sorry thought we had starwars in there somewhere, also when you here planet destruction you think Deathstar

3)Not with magic

4)acid would melt metal, lighting short circuit, fire burn spaceship, cold freeze it.

graymachine
2007-12-24, 11:23 PM
1)No krynn doesn't but 3 faerun dragon went through space somehow and got to krynn, meaning dragons can go in space(could have been through magic)

2)sorry thought we had starwars in there somewhere, also when you here planet destruction you think Deathstar

3)Not with magic

4)acid would melt metal, lighting short circuit, fire burn spaceship, cold freeze it.

1. Bhu wha? Dragons are living creatures, and need to therefore breathe. One would imagine, based on the vague description, that your dragons didn't fly to Krynn. Most likely they employed some portal in the sky, since it is impossible to fly from one Prime Material Plane to another in the D&D cosmology. Furthermore, there are more concerns in space than simply breathing; assuming they all have the foresight to shield themselves from the intense cold, there is no spell in D&D that lets the caster control the pressure of their environment. So, dragon flies into space, dragon pops like a balloon, spewing gases in all directions as the pressure in its body equalizes with zero.

2. An Imperial Armada capable of performing an Exterminatus makes the Death Star look like an adorable sneeze.

3. See number 1.

4. Assuming that the dragons somehow survived in space long enough to fight, they would be long dead before getting close enough to attack. Such a fleet would have a ship, if not a number of them, that a dragon would fit in the main cannon of and such ships are designed to fire at hundreds of kilometers due to the necessity of ship combat. The Impergium of Man would simply glass such an obviously heretical world.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 11:26 PM
Not a problem, guys. The super Locate city shows itself as being more than on par with the Exterminatus.

graymachine
2007-12-24, 11:28 PM
On the subject of the OP, though, this situation shouldn't be happening unless the people having the discussion simply don't know what they are talking about. Faerun magic trumps ME magic with barely any effort. A group of mid to high level wizards and clerics crush any army from ME and leave the "Fellowship" choking to death in a pool of their own blood. The only thing ME could pull off would be its propensity for Deus Ex Machina, a characteristic of poor writing.

graymachine
2007-12-24, 11:29 PM
Not a problem, guys. The super Locate city shows itself as being more than on par with the Exterminatus.

Super Locate city?

Caxton
2007-12-24, 11:30 PM
Don't forget all the weird space dragons. I don't think they were ever brought into 3x but they naturally exist in space and make gold dragons look like baby lizards.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 11:30 PM
This link might help:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-60534.html

Put enough boosts on INT and the Reflex save WILL be failed.

graymachine
2007-12-24, 11:37 PM
Don't forget all the weird space dragons. I don't think they were ever brought into 3x but they naturally exist in space and make gold dragons look like baby lizards.

Hmm. Well, I'm not sure you could use such a thing in this discussion, but sure, let's go with it. Super Space Dragons destroy Imperial Fleet. Eventually word gets back to someone in the Impergium with enough power to fill the solar system with ships. Such action is taken, since the Impergium is not above simply throwing men at a problem until its gone. Drawing resources from over 1,000,000 worlds goes a long way.

Emperor Tippy
2007-12-24, 11:48 PM
This link might help:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-60534.html

Put enough boosts on INT and the Reflex save WILL be failed.

Again, Super Locate City does nothing to planets or space ships. It only works on creatures. You should go read Born of the Three Thunders and Explosive Spell.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-24, 11:54 PM
I'm working on that. Give me some time to think it out.

tyckspoon
2007-12-24, 11:59 PM
On the subject of the OP, though, this situation shouldn't be happening unless the people having the discussion simply don't know what they are talking about. Faerun magic trumps ME magic with barely any effort. A group of mid to high level wizards and clerics crush any army from ME and leave the "Fellowship" choking to death in a pool of their own blood. The only thing ME could pull off would be its propensity for Deus Ex Machina, a characteristic of poor writing.

Forgotten Realms crushes Middle Earth handily, yes (although the Middle Earth people are invoking the vaguely-defined and generally unknown powers of the Valar and Maia taking an active hand in the fight to compensate). It's not just Realms vs. Tolkien, tho; the thread's premise is a four-way free-for-all between the Realms, Middle Earth, and Terra (Warhammer 40k) and Coruscant (Star Wars). Middle Earth and the Realms have a lot of work to do to come up with any reasonable counter to planets from settings that have the ability to fairly trivially render other planets into asteroid clouds.

Emperor Tippy
2007-12-25, 12:02 AM
I'm working on that. Give me some time to think it out.

There isn't any way.

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-25, 12:15 AM
Forgotten Realms crushes Middle Earth handily, yes (although the Middle Earth people are invoking the vaguely-defined and generally unknown powers of the Valar and Maia taking an active hand in the fight to compensate). It's not just Realms vs. Tolkien, tho; the thread's premise is a four-way free-for-all between the Realms, Middle Earth, and Terra (Warhammer 40k) and Coruscant (Star Wars). Middle Earth and the Realms have a lot of work to do to come up with any reasonable counter to planets from settings that have the ability to fairly trivially render other planets into asteroid clouds.

Epic spell cheese FTW. With prep and a DM willing to let you do anything that the letter of the rules allows, there's nothing epic magic can't do.

(Except defeat Pun-Pun.)

graymachine
2007-12-25, 12:47 AM
Yeah, tyckspoon, I've switched over to the other thread. Just kind of waiting until someone can come up with a half-decent reason why anyone but the IoM would win. Some people seem to think they do, but apparently they don't realize the numbers and weapons involved, not to mention what fanatical means in WH 40K.

Triaxx
2007-12-25, 06:29 AM
Let's see... ME is easy enough to slaughter. On the other hand, if FR and ME joined forces, the firepower involved with ME's DM fiat's would be sufficient to destroy the armies of 40K. SW might be a slight difficulty. Considering their psionics, and brilliant energy weapon wielding ground forces.

Winterwind
2007-12-25, 07:17 AM
Let's see... ME is easy enough to slaughter. On the other hand, if FR and ME joined forces, the firepower involved with ME's DM fiat's would be sufficient to destroy the armies of 40K. SW might be a slight difficulty. Considering their psionics, and brilliant energy weapon wielding ground forces.You say WH40k would be a push-over, while Star Wars might have a chance on basis of psionics (of which WH40k has much more and much stronger ones than SW) and energy weapon wielding ground forces (of which WH40k has much more and much stronger ones than SW)? :smallconfused:
Something's not right about this logic...

thorgrim29
2007-12-25, 01:38 PM
Winterwind, problem is most people dont realise the sheer scope of WH40k. And when we enlightened ones try to explain their untried minds simply block off the explanation. Now just one hing, slightly off topic: what CAN the emperor do in his current state exactly? Is he just comatoese, or actually a being of godlike power?

Winterwind
2007-12-25, 01:45 PM
I don't really know, frankly, but then, my WH40k knowledge is rather limited. I'm sure over in the Media forum or in the WH40k thread in the Gaming (Other) forum, you would find people who could tell you that with high precision. :smallwink:

However, keeping the Astronomicon running would indicate he's not entirely out, at any rate. :smallwink:

Triaxx
2007-12-25, 05:10 PM
We're ignoring politely the fact that both Warhammer settings are designed around large scale fleet and forces battles involving hundreds of millions of units and then calling it a skirmish.

We're cheerfully ignoring the fact that any sort of attack perpetrated would be utterly and mercilessly crushed by sheer superior weight of numbers.

On the other hand, I do have a handful of tactics that would allow me to simple eliminate the entire universe. But I'm not telling.

---

And I didn't say energy weapons. I said BRILLIANT energy weapons. Referring to Lightsabers. And by Psionics, I of course meant the Force.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-25, 05:21 PM
We're Also ignoring FR has Epic Bartenders. How hard will it be to Permanence Prismatic walls 'round the whole planet?

Winterwind
2007-12-25, 05:21 PM
We're ignoring politely the fact that both Warhammer settings are designed around large scale fleet and forces battles involving hundreds of millions of units and then calling it a skirmish.

We're cheerfully ignoring the fact that any sort of attack perpetrated would be utterly and mercilessly crushed by sheer superior weight of numbers.Indeed, you are ignoring those. I just don't quite understand why? :smallconfused:


On the other hand, I do have a handful of tactics that would allow me to simple eliminate the entire universe. But I'm not telling.You might want to reconsider that, I'm pretty sure they (or at least, the side favourising FR) would eagerly hear these tactics in the Battle of the Earths thread which spawned this one.


And I didn't say energy weapons. I said BRILLIANT energy weapons. Referring to Lightsabers. And by Psionics, I of course meant the Force.Regarding the Force, that's what I meant as well. Jedi don't stand up to psykers, not in force and definitely not in numbers. As for lightsabres, I'm neither sure how they compare to Force weapons from WH40k (though I heard on these forums that the comparison was not favourable - for the lightsabres), nor whether they would not be offset by the vastly superior ranged weapons WH40k has as compared to SW. At any rate, however, how much would a few people with lightsabres matter as compared to the millions, or billions, of soldiers?

However, this is definitely going off-topic. If you wish to, we can continue this debate over at the Battle of the Earths thread.

RandomFellow
2007-12-25, 06:10 PM
FR Wins. Epic Spell to Open a Portal to the current head of the Imperium of Man's house.

This guy does a jump:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=943738&highlight=jump+fanatic

Suddenly, the entire Imperium of Man sides with FR and beats everyone else down.

Bam!

Winterwind
2007-12-25, 06:15 PM
FR Wins. Epic Spell to Open a Portal to the current head of the Imperium of Man's house.That "current head" is, incidentally, a god. :smallbiggrin:


This guy does a jump:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=943738&highlight=jump+fanatic

Suddenly, the entire Imperium of Man sides with FR and beats everyone else down.

Bam!Okay... reading through it, apart from the original thread explicitly banning cheese, it seems to require a one minute long performance to come to fruition. What would prevent the God-Emperor from tearing the Jumplomancer apart, taking his screaming soul and ripping that apart as well within 5 seconds of his entrance?

RandomFellow
2007-12-25, 06:16 PM
That "current head" is, incidentally, a god. :smallbiggrin:

Okay... reading through it, apart from the original thread explicitly banning cheese, it seems to require a one minute long performance to come to fruition. What would prevent the God-Emperor from tearing the Jumplomancer apart, taking his screaming soul and ripping that apart as well within 5 seconds of his entrance?

God's do not get to Save vs. Awesome. =)

In other news, the rules ban Cheese but not God Emperors? WTF?

graymachine
2007-12-25, 06:21 PM
In regards to the Emperor taking a hand, I think it highly unlikely. The Emperor exists solely on in the Immaterium as an impossibly massive Warp entity, generating the Astonomican and locked in eternal battle with the creatures of the Warp. His body, while just this side of alive by the barest of microns, is only a husk; if one wanted to take the Emperor out of the picture then it would be more efficient to destroy the Golden Throne itself. This however, would be practically impossible for a lengthy number of reasons I won't go into unless someone wants me to. The Emperor would have some influence, however, as the Imperial Tarot cards that numerous individuals use, actually do work at predicting events, a bleed off function of the Emperor's power.

If the Starchild theory holds out, though, destroying the Emperor's body would allow him to be reincarnated as a living God, which would make the situation worse for the enemies of the Imperium, not better.

graymachine
2007-12-25, 06:24 PM
We also haven't considered that the humans on all of these worlds would recognize the God-Emperor as the rightful ruler of the cosmos and decend upon the xenos, heretics, and mutants in their midst with righteous fury.

Winterwind
2007-12-25, 06:48 PM
God's do not get to Save vs. Awesome. =)I can't argue with that. :smallbiggrin:


In other news, the rules ban Cheese but not God Emperors? WTF?Well, the God Emperor is inherently part of the WH40k setting. Cheese, Pun-Pun and cohorts a part of the Realms... not so much. :smallwink:

I admit, however, that I exaggerated a bit; the God-Emperor would likely not act himself, as graymachine pointed out. He wouldn't need to, either, he's perpetually guarded by a sufficient number of what amounts to demigods. :smallcool:

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-25, 06:50 PM
Who can sadly be stopped cold by a Solid Fog...

Hmm... Why did that comment bring reminiscences of a Monk vs. Wizard thread?

RandomFellow
2007-12-25, 06:50 PM
I can't argue with that. :smallbiggrin:

Well, the God Emperor is inherently part of the WH40k setting. Cheese, Pun-Pun and cohorts a part of the Realms... not so much. :smallwink:

I admit, however, that I exaggerated a bit; the God-Emperor would likely not act himself, as graymachine pointed out. He wouldn't need to, either, he's perpetually guarded by a sufficient number of what amounts to demigods. :smallcool:

Fine so we send the Jumplomancer after the demigods or whatever commands WH40k.

Or Pun-Pun.

These cheese restrictions guarantee Imperial Victory. 0o

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-25, 06:54 PM
I considered PAOing a wizard's skin into prismatic energy then rawkin' it out with the empire, but that would be sorrily cheating, and the equivalent of using a blackhole to kill their planet.

Which got banned, but donnae say I didn't try.

Winterwind
2007-12-25, 06:59 PM
Who can sadly be stopped cold by a Solid Fog...*checks spell description*
Hmmm... depends, I guess, on whether sci-fi weapons, including lasers and alike, would fall under "ordinary ranged weapons", or be excluded from the Solid Fog's effects. Also, whether all of the few hundred of them would be affected.
Damn, why am I even attending this discussion? I just stepped in to remedy a misperception of the WH40k universe; I am neither qualified nor do I wish to debate whether WH40k or FR would win in a conflict, and especially not in a thread not meant for this! :smallbiggrin:


Fine so we send the Jumplomancer after the demigods or whatever commands WH40k.Now the only trouble could be their "shoot first, ask questions later" policy. :smallbiggrin:


Or Pun-Pun.

These cheese restrictions guarantee Imperial Victory. 0oWell, I was not siding with WH40k all along without reason! :smalltongue:

Triaxx
2007-12-25, 07:34 PM
Indeed, you are ignoring those. I just don't quite understand why? :smallconfused:

For balance purposes. Millions against a handful of epic bartenders is still a slightly lopsided number.


You might want to reconsider that, I'm pretty sure they (or at least, the side favourising FR) would eagerly hear these tactics in the Battle of the Earths thread which spawned this one.

In short, FR is not a sci-fi viable reality. Pulling 40K forces through the linking portal means all that firepower, becomes null and void. They get to go melee. On the other hand I can still send packs of Tarrasques enhanced with multiple numerical advantages in to demolish the suddenly under powered forces.


Regarding the Force, that's what I meant as well. Jedi don't stand up to psykers, not in force and definitely not in numbers. As for lightsabres, I'm neither sure how they compare to Force weapons from WH40k (though I heard on these forums that the comparison was not favourable - for the lightsabres), nor whether they would not be offset by the vastly superior ranged weapons WH40k has as compared to SW. At any rate, however, how much would a few people with lightsabres matter as compared to the millions, or billions, of soldiers?

We have Wookies. Wookies=Win. Therefore we win. *grin*


However, this is definitely going off-topic. If you wish to, we can continue this debate over at the Battle of the Earths thread.

No, that's alright. I'm not in the mood to get ambushed by a war.

Winterwind
2007-12-25, 07:46 PM
For balance purposes. Millions against a handful of epic bartenders is still a slightly lopsided number.It is a weird scenario, alright. :smallbiggrin:


In short, FR is not a sci-fi viable reality. Pulling 40K forces through the linking portal means all that firepower, becomes null and void. They get to go melee. On the other hand I can still send packs of Tarrasques enhanced with multiple numerical advantages in to demolish the suddenly under powered forces.Not by the premise of the original thread, which leaves the respective universes assets all intact. Nice try, though. :smallbiggrin:


We have Wookies. Wookies=Win. Therefore we win. *grin*As we all know, the right strategy is always to let the Wookie win. :smallcool:


No, that's alright. I'm not in the mood to get ambushed by a war.A very understandable stance. :smallbiggrin:

Triaxx
2007-12-26, 12:00 PM
Ah. Must have missed that. In that case there's no point in making the attempt. Anything short of Pun-Pun is simply an instant failure.

Winterwind
2007-12-26, 12:17 PM
Well, by "all assets" I mean the respective powers and technologies; the original thread is a confrontation of the main worlds of the universes in question only (Holy Terra for WH40k, Coruscant for SW, Faerun, Arda, and the Marvel and DC Earths). That, plus whatever is in their orbit. So the numbers are not utterly ridiculously in WH40k's favour.

It still seems to be a fairly strong contender, though Faerun has a fervent proponent in Azerian Kelimon, whereas a few other people side with the comic book worlds.

GoC
2007-12-26, 12:42 PM
In other news, the rules ban Cheese but not God Emperors? WTF?

Cheese wasn't banned. Reality altering powers, powers without limits and wish were banned.

Fhaolan
2007-12-26, 01:30 PM
1. Bhu wha? Dragons are living creatures, and need to therefore breathe. One would imagine, based on the vague description, that your dragons didn't fly to Krynn. Most likely they employed some portal in the sky, since it is impossible to fly from one Prime Material Plane to another in the D&D cosmology. Furthermore, there are more concerns in space than simply breathing; assuming they all have the foresight to shield themselves from the intense cold, there is no spell in D&D that lets the caster control the pressure of their environment. So, dragon flies into space, dragon pops like a balloon, spewing gases in all directions as the pressure in its body equalizes with zero.

I believe the dragons moving from FR to DL occured during 2nd edition, which meant Spelljammer rules were in play. I'm not 100% familiar with the ins and outs of Spelljammer, but I do recall dragons and giants falling into the category of having enough mass to carry an atmosphere. I know that it doesn't make sense according to physics, but that was the point of Spelljammer. Otherwise you couldn't have faux-sailing ships in space.:smallbiggrin:

Winterwind
2007-12-26, 01:32 PM
Cheese wasn't banned. Reality altering powers, powers without limits and wish were banned.Oh, okay. My bad, then. Sorry. :smallredface:

graymachine
2007-12-26, 01:43 PM
As a note, the population on Holy Terra, if memory serves, is 13 trillion, which is the civilian population only.

To answer the question, dragons and giants don't have enough mass to retain an atmosphere. The things you're looking for mass-wise to retain an atmosphere are decent size moons, at minimum. I always assumed that in Spelljammer some wizard had researched a spell to control pressure.

RandomFellow
2007-12-26, 02:18 PM
Cheese wasn't banned. Reality altering powers, powers without limits and wish were banned.

The Jumplomancer has limits since he can be killed before completing his No Save vs. Awesome. =)

Excellent. Send an army of Jumplomancers as defensively buffed as possible and you win! One of them will last for one minute.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-26, 02:20 PM
Wow. Who thought casting Forcecage or Prismatic sphere on someone focused on Jumping would be that good?

RandomFellow
2007-12-26, 03:00 PM
Me? =) Heh.

Fhaolan
2007-12-26, 06:30 PM
As a note, the population on Holy Terra, if memory serves, is 13 trillion, which is the civilian population only.

To answer the question, dragons and giants don't have enough mass to retain an atmosphere. The things you're looking for mass-wise to retain an atmosphere are decent size moons, at minimum. I always assumed that in Spelljammer some wizard had researched a spell to control pressure.

*grin* No, you misunderstand. The Spelljammer rules specifically mention that giants and dragons have enough mass to be able to retain atmosphere. Physics doesn't enter into it, as Spelljammer 'physics' completely and utterly have nothing to do with RL physics. They don't address pressure, because the multiverse Spelljammer relates to doesn't have pressure differentials. Everything is always at 1 atm, no matter how deep in the sea, of how far into space you are. That's Spelljammer in specific, and D&D in general. You may not be able to *breathe* space, but you're not going to have the air ripped from your lungs and have your surface blood vessels rupture.

Winterwind
2007-12-26, 06:45 PM
...but you're not going to have the air ripped from your lungs and have your surface blood vessels rupture.Which is realistic. The NASA debunks the urban mythos that humans explode in vacuum here (http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html). And since vacuum makes for excellent isolation, you won't freeze immediately, either. Basically, short exposure to space is pretty much harmless.

Chibiqueso
2007-12-26, 07:04 PM
Which is realistic. The NASA debunks the urban mythos that humans explode in vacuum here (http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html). And since vacuum makes for excellent isolation, you won't freeze immediately, either. Basically, short exposure to space is pretty much harmless.

The whole asphyxiation thing becomes a problem rather swiftly, though.

Winterwind
2007-12-26, 07:25 PM
The whole asphyxiation thing becomes a problem rather swiftly, though.Oh, agreed - it sure is not a desirable state, and that astronaut mentioned in that link lost consciousness within 15 seconds. But the pressure difference itself is not directly damaging, at any rate.

shadowdemon_lord
2007-12-26, 09:45 PM
Holy Terra gets 13 Trillion people and a crack squad of demi gods, middle earth gets to use it's gods and demigods, but the Forgotten Realms dosen't get to use it's pantheon? That's just whack. I will say that against godlike beings and epic level wizards that Star Wars is going to get utterly annihilated. Still, my money's on the IoM, assuming they have even 1 chapter of space marines they will wipe the floor with any enemy armies anyone else can throw. In the meantime the 13 trillion civilians will be mobilized into imperial guards and over run anything, guided by their generals using tarot cards that read true. That's just not fair.

graymachine
2007-12-26, 10:13 PM
They have better than Space Marines; they have the Adeptus Custodes, which are to a Space Marine as a Space Marine is to a normal man. The only thing more powerful than them are Primarchs. Add there is 10,000 of them. It should also be noted that there should be a significant number of various Space Marines on Terra at the time, for a number of reasons. Most notably, and numerous of them would be the Black Templars. Furthermore, the Grey Knights make their headquarters on Terra.

Renegade Paladin
2007-12-26, 11:35 PM
Oh, agreed - it sure is not a desirable state, and that astronaut mentioned in that link lost consciousness within 15 seconds. But the pressure difference itself is not directly damaging, at any rate.
Yeah, right; you'd get one hell of a case of the bends. If surfacing after a deep dive can do it, total decompression sure as hell will.

They have better than Space Marines; they have the Adeptus Custodes, which are to a Space Marine as a Space Marine is to a normal man. The only thing more powerful than them are Primarchs. Add there is 10,000 of them. It should also be noted that there should be a significant number of various Space Marines on Terra at the time, for a number of reasons. Most notably, and numerous of them would be the Black Templars. Furthermore, the Grey Knights make their headquarters on Terra.
Incorrect; the Grey Knights' Fortress-Monastery is on Titan. In any case, there will be a few Space Marines present (Space Wolves in small numbers because of a debt the chapter owes to somebody in the Administratum; I forget exactly how that came about, and probably a few others as well), but significant forces of them are barred from Terra to my knowledge.

Lost_Scholar
2007-12-27, 12:22 AM
Well if only reality altering powers, wish, and unlimited powere are banned, then recruit a Festering Angered Hulking Hurler to throw Middle Earth into one of the other worlds, plus all the stuff from here (http://http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=897351) should be able to take care of anything that's left (though some of the stuff is disqulaified/ have to have self imposed limited so as not to be unlimited to work ;P)

Starbuck_II
2007-12-27, 01:30 AM
Regarding the Force, that's what I meant as well. Jedi don't stand up to psykers, not in force and definitely not in numbers. As for lightsabres, I'm neither sure how they compare to Force weapons from WH40k (though I heard on these forums that the comparison was not favourable - for the lightsabres), nor whether they would not be offset by the vastly superior ranged weapons WH40k has as compared to SW. At any rate, however, how much would a few people with lightsabres matter as compared to the millions, or billions, of soldiers?


Actually, since Jedis in Saga have +1 save level (heroric level): At level 20, minimum +30 bonus to saves and add in class bonus. If they took 1 level in Scout to get evasion and took Deflect as a Jedi Talent they are pretty much unstoppable to equal level enemies in D&D.

All rays can be stopped/deflected and area effects don't work. Saves are too high to affect.
Only No save non-rays have a chance: very few of them.

And they can Sever the Magic of enemies. Because in Saga magic=Force (under another name it says). So they can end magic usage of foes.

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-27, 01:36 AM
Star Wars is a non-factor; even the strongest Jedi or Sith would get brutalized by a mid-to-high-level Batman wizard. Nevermind epic. All they have are big starships and maybe the Death Star, all of which are confined to just one plane of existence.

Middle Earth comes in a few places behind dead last. 'Nuff said.

Forgotten Realms has ridiculously high-level people running all over the place, including a host of epic wizards who should be perfectly capable of entering space safely if they really wish to (there's a non-epic magic item that makes survival in a vacuum possible, for god's sake, and Greater Scrying + Greater Teleport obviates the need anyway, since any wizard with both can instantly blink on-board a star destroyer in a moment's notice, and take it over shortly thereafter.

The only one I don't know enough about to judge is Warhammer. As far as I can tell, it's a battle between that and the Forgotten Realms. Nobody else has a snowball's chance in Hell.

Talic
2007-12-27, 01:48 AM
Would A Hulking Hurler/Warhulk build that does over 1 trillion damage count as reality-altering? If I recall, the WotC CharOp boards posted one once, something about a Wemic template with a few other things to mitigate Racial Adjustments, quadroped, enlarged, with the feat that doubles carrying capacity, and enough strength boost to choke a donkey. Overburdened heave with a spiked rock (+1 distance, returning) with handholds crafted from a mountain, and using an enchantment that causes the item to shrink (calculated to lower the weight by a factor of 3000, increased after throwing per the enchantment)... Think the enchantment was designed to turn light crossbow bolts into ballista shot. Using the damage charts for heavy objects, it supposedly gets +1d6 per 200 pounds of weight, and ends up at something like 400,000,000,000d6 or so for the hit, with a +80 or so to hit.

I think it used a ring of spell storing to store the OA spell that makes you really huge too. I think that could compete with a Lascannon, or likely even a Titan. It'd certainly junk a Land Raider.

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-27, 01:49 AM
Actually, since Jedis in Saga have +1 save level (heroric level): At level 20, minimum +30 bonus to saves and add in class bonus. If they took 1 level in Scout to get evasion and took Deflect as a Jedi Talent they are pretty much unstoppable to equal level enemies in D&D.

All rays can be stopped/deflected and area effects don't work. Saves are too high to affect.
Only No save non-rays have a chance: very few of them.

And they can Sever the Magic of enemies. Because in Saga magic=Force (under another name it says). So they can end magic usage of foes.

That only works if the target has at least one Dark Side point. However, Dark Side points don't exist in the Forgotten Realms, ergo, no one in FR has any Dark Side points ... even if Sever Force could work on magic. I doubt it, as the Force is nothing compared to magic.

You sort of have a point about the high saving throws, assuming we're using Saga rules versus 3.5e D&D rules. That, of course, means the wizards just fall back more to no-save spells and summons. It also means, however, that the Star Wars characters are limited to 20th level, while the D&D characters can continue on into epic, gain epic spells, use them to buff their casting stats into infinity, and then ignore the saves of the Star Wars characters entirely.

No, you actually don't have a point, come to it. Star Wars still loses badly.

Edit: Oh, it does to the meleers, too, by the way, since saber block falls apart against excessive iterative attacks, and there's nothing in Star Wars Saga that can match the brokenness of an ubercharger, or even a scout/dervish.

Edit 2: And, of course, there are the rogue 19/shadowdancer 1 characters who will rip saber-users apart in just one or two rounds, without ever being found due to the much higher skill totals possible in D&D (especially with magical items). And saber block fails completely when the would-be blocker is flatfooted.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-27, 02:06 AM
Hmm...am I the only one who, after reading the lyrics of Unskinny Bop, thinks it oddly fits this battle royale? "We'll see who ride who by the end of the race".

Talic
2007-12-27, 02:07 AM
And before you all get too much on this "God Emperor" thing, keep in mind, these guys think of onboard computers as machine spirits. There's at least a little to be said for hype. Even if not, however, there is more than one way to skin a cat. FR has shown mortals killing gods for some time now. I think it's like baseball in the US.

You know, something wizards get hot dogs and watch each other do as a spectator sport.


As for the high save force people? Avasculate, avasculate, Avasculate, power word: kill.

Heck, those jedi were dropping like flies to one or two sith and a robot army... and a BAD robot army at that... Come on now...

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-12-27, 03:23 AM
Divination wizards would see the whole thing coming and warn someone like Elminster years before it actually comes. I mean, epic magic is just stupid. Also, Jarlaxle Baenre somehow has some brilliant plan that solves everything while getting him all the finest ladies in the Imperium, because he is a walking Deus Ex Machina that walks like Errol Flynn.

Triaxx
2007-12-27, 08:42 AM
Edit 2: And, of course, there are the rogue 19/shadowdancer 1 characters who will rip saber-users apart in just one or two rounds, without ever being found due to the much higher skill totals possible in D&D (especially with magical items). And saber block fails completely when the would-be blocker is flatfooted.

Except for the fact that the force tends to go: Hey stupid, behind you.

GoC
2007-12-28, 12:05 AM
We're talking about the FR campaign setting so a lot of mages won't know about all these exploits.

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-28, 12:38 AM
Except for the fact that the force tends to go: Hey stupid, behind you.

Sure. It's a trait called Force Perception, which lets you use Use the Force checks for Perception checks. It's also a general usage of Use the Force that lets you ignore the penalties to Perception applied (in Saga) due to your would-be target having concealment, not that it matters because in D&D, you don't get to apply that penalty to people's checks to find you anyway, so the rogue isn't expecting it, and shadowdancers don't care about concealment because they don't need it. The jedi can look behind, up, down, around, underfoot ... it isn't going to matter because Hide in Plain Sight means "I can stand right in front of you, and as long as I'm within 10 feet of some kind of shadow, such as the one you yourself cast, you can't see me at all."

It's supernatural ... like the Force, actually, only more powerful because magic trumps the Force.

I could quite easily build a rogue 19/shadowdancer 1 who would never, ever be found by your jedi. Your jedi who, by the way, would die in a round or two.

That's without going into epic.

(rogue X/assassin X works, too, once I get HIPS)

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-12-28, 01:05 AM
Are you kidding, GoC? Thay is dependant on cheese like Ireland was potatoes, and Rashemon right along with it. Well, against it on even terms using the same cheese for good.

Yami
2007-12-28, 01:41 AM
I really love how the Warhammer enthusiest keep saying that FR can't bring in any of it's gods or epic casters and yet they get to keep their god emperor.

It's like thier trying to undress the opposition until they're the soldier with a flack vest and a rifle, sitting inside a tank calling in an airstrike on the poor kid whose shirt and lunch money they just stole.

Rules do not make a fair fight, they circumvent one.

Talic
2007-12-28, 02:37 AM
Chances are, any attack to 40k worlds would be dealt with by multiple chapters of multiple space marine/imperial guard, and an attempt to deal with the head of the whole kebab will deal with the god emperor.


Chances are, any attack to FR planes would be dealt with by multiple gods, epic casters, and multiple planes of goodness.

Chances are, any attack to star wars worlds would be dealt with by... um.. would someone help me out here? I'm drawing a blank. All I got is the Hutts on Tattooine and a few star destroyers.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-12-28, 03:03 AM
Actually, I imagine the Hutts would really win by virtue of selling the winnters beachfront land in real world Switzerland for everything. Because when a giant slug-thing is trying to sell you something, you don't say "no," you say whatever will that ****ing slug to leave the fastest.

Talic
2007-12-28, 03:27 AM
Actually, I imagine the Hutts would really win by virtue of selling the winnters beachfront land in real world Switzerland for everything. Because when a giant slug-thing is trying to sell you something, you don't say "no," you say whatever will that ****ing slug to leave the fastest.

One spell.

Transmute Ground to Salt.

Talya
2007-12-28, 09:13 AM
Cast Major Creation and summon Antimatter onto Middle Earth.

It's in my sig.


Speaking of your sig, Solo, (and this is more properly addressed to Azerian, whom you quoted)...as the inventor of the Vow of Nudity, I am very curious as to its application with a succubus monk. (I initially created the vow of nudity/vow of poverty character as a bard/sublime chord.)

Triaxx
2007-12-28, 10:09 AM
Ah right. I always forget that it was a house rule to add Use the Force checks to AC.

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-28, 10:19 AM
Chances are, any attack to FR planes would be dealt with by multiple gods, epic casters, and multiple planes of goodness.

Not just goodness. A wholesale attack on the entire FR world as a whole concerns everyone there, including the "bad guys." Lloth, for example, may not care about goodness or about whether any given random drow dies horribly, but she's certainly going to care if the entire drow race, and even she herself, are threatened with extinction.

That same reasoning extends to all of the rest of them, save maybe weirdos like Cyric, I guess.

Talya
2007-12-28, 10:37 AM
Not just goodness. A wholesale attack on the entire FR world as a whole concerns everyone there, including the "bad guys." Lloth, for example, may not care about goodness or about whether any given random drow dies horribly, but she's certainly going to care if the entire drow race, and even she herself, are threatened with extinction.

That same reasoning extends to all of the rest of them, save maybe weirdos like Cyric, I guess.

Even Shar, who craves nothing less than oblivion for all existence, would fight the invaders. (And if she won, she'd then have a new target as well. She will not willingly go into oblivion herself before all other existences go first.)

Triaxx
2007-12-28, 02:41 PM
Cyric is likely to side with... Starwars, or ME. Probably make Denethor into his avatar or something.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-28, 02:55 PM
That is a non issue. Gods are not allowed. If they were, Pun-Pun would have wiped Stan Lee, the biggest god in the competition, ipso facto, and with him all the other worlds.

BTW, 'Twas my idea, using a succubus monk. It came from an old thread from eberron in which we ascertained monks make the perfect prostitutes (Flurry of Blows, Wholeness of Body, Tongue of the sun and moon, Lawful, boosted unarmed damage and Wis to AC?), and in a thread discussing ways to cheat Vow of poverty, I joked about using Magnificent Pigments to bring the Succubus monk to life and use her as a bargaining chip to convince the DM to make the vow better. It stuck and became a sig.

Lost_Scholar
2007-12-28, 08:31 PM
Though the FR gods are banned from showing up, what about the ice assassin duplicates of the FR gods showing up :smallbiggrin:. After all, Mystra should have enough vested into the outcome that she wouldn't mind a few copies of here allies/enemies for the time being...just a thought. (Or, better yet, make ice assassins of the God Emperor :smallwink: :smallbiggrin: :smallcool: )

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-12-28, 10:15 PM
Azerian: The gods were brought up in reference to the God emperor, who is, evidently, allowed. If such a double-standard would be removed, FR would destroy them instantaneously.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-28, 10:21 PM
Aye. Jus' phone the Lady and have everything's ass handed on a meteoric adamantine platter.

tyckspoon
2007-12-28, 10:28 PM
Azerian: The gods were brought up in reference to the God emperor, who is, evidently, allowed. If such a double-standard would be removed, FR would destroy them instantaneously.

The existence of the God-Emperor is necessary to the existence of the Imperium, just as Mystra is fundamental to the Realms- no Mystra, no magic. No God-Emperor, the forces of Chaos summarily eat humanity (and the Imperium disintegrates into trillions of disconnected planets, many of which no longer have the ability to sustain themselves.) Expecting the Emperor to take an active hand in things, however, is folly; he's busy. His influence in any fight should be limited to the results of the Emperor's Tarot, which would be roughly equivalent to magical divinations.. and possibly blowing out the minds of any weaker psychics who open themselves up too near the Astronomicon, but that's not a direct act of the Emperor, just a similar result as going up next to a star and then removing all the glare shielding on a spacesuit.

If you're talking about the living Emperor, then yes, he should be excluded under a no gods/instant reality manipulation rule. But the living Emperor also comes from the time when the Imperium knew what the hell it was doing with all of its tools and would be capable of developing new weapons and tactics instead of resorting to the 'get a bigger gun' school of thought and relying on an ever-shrinking arsenal of past superweapons.

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-28, 10:30 PM
I don't know about this "god emperor," but I figure he either has to be mortal (and therefore very killable by a D&D wizard, as pretty much anything mortal is) or divine (and therefore not allowed per the rules).

Also, I have a thought stuck in my head that won't go away now:

"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of wizards cast Celerity and Time Stop at once."

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-12-28, 10:32 PM
They're required for the universes to work, as you said, so both sides should get their gods. Not letting those of the FR take action because 40K's is trapped is like not letting the 40K use any modern weaponry because FR characters don't have it.

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-28, 10:40 PM
Ah, so the god emperor is in fact a bona fide god?

Then the competition is a sham. If gods are not allowed, and the god emperor is a god, then the god emperor is not allowed. Simple, inescapable logic.

To attempt to circumvent that is to, essentially, concede that 40k can't do it.

By the way, what's the point of this silly challenge? :smalltongue:

tyckspoon
2007-12-28, 10:58 PM
Ah, so the god emperor is in fact a bona fide god?

Then the competition is a sham. If gods are not allowed, and the god emperor is a god, then the god emperor is not allowed. Simple, inescapable logic.

To attempt to circumvent that is to, essentially, concede that 40k can't do it.

By the way, what's the point of this silly challenge? :smalltongue:

Technically, no; he is merely a being of god-like power. Although if you're going by Realms rules where mortal belief becomes divine power, then the veneration of the entire Imperium means he is a god, and the population of the Imperium means he is probably more powerful than the Faerunean pantheons put together.

"Not Allowed" is a shorthand for "may not participate directly in the battle", in this case; the Realms also collapse immediately if "not allowed" means "does not exist", since they must fight with magic to achieve anything and magic is dependent on the gods.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-12-28, 11:01 PM
I'm just saying that the handicap of not being allowed to directly intervene is something of a double-standard against the FR, as it doesn't affect 40K, where the deity can't interfere, anyway, regardless of whether he's allowed to, while FR deities could. Similarly, banning sci-fi technology would crush 40K and do essentially nothing to FR. Yeah, the rule applies to both sides, equally, but it doesn't affect one side.

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-29, 12:44 AM
I looked at the thread. Apparently, DC Earth was also involved, and Franklin was banned.

That's funny to me. So basically, half of the thread was spent weeding out the heavy-hitters from the other worlds who could overcome 40k. What's the point of a "competition" to begin with if all you're going to do is rig it after the fact? Just declare that 40k wins because you want it to, and move on.

Geesh.

It's a silly argument anyway, really.