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Cuddly
2007-12-25, 05:23 AM
When you compare D&D to a MMORPG, what do you mean by that?

Mindless grinding? Class, item, and monsters structured to provide balance, at the sacrifice of storyline and verisimilitude? Limits to play to retain class balance? Reduction of class abilities and the like to a semi-coherent collection of quasi-magic powers? What?

TheLogman
2007-12-25, 05:47 AM
Essentially this means:

-Less choice in Character creation
-The implementation of mechanics found in MMORPGS (Spawning, cool-down times, and that thing that makes monsters attack you)
-Monsters with simplified attacks
-Less puzzles and politics and more hack n slash.
-Classes that multiclass less
-Classes with "paths"

Tengu
2007-12-25, 07:15 AM
Essentially this means:

-Less choice in Character creation
-The implementation of mechanics found in MMORPGS (Spawning, cool-down times, and that thing that makes monsters attack you)
-Monsters with simplified attacks
-Less puzzles and politics and more hack n slash.
-Classes that multiclass less
-Classes with "paths"

All apart from the bolded parts looks more like previous editions to me.

And for some reason I thought that this thread will be about moe characters (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoeMoe) in DND. Which would be very weird.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-12-25, 07:27 AM
moe characters (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoeMoe) in DND. Which would be very weird.

So did I... I guess the equivilant would be finding girls with poorly balanced below par classes sexy.

Adding more levels is also considered an MMO style thing, despite D&D having had level number creep in all its editions since the 70s.

Starsinger
2007-12-25, 07:30 AM
Adding more levels is also considered an MMO style thing, despite D&D having had level number creep in all its editions since the 70s.

In theory 4E lowers the level limit from 3.5's Inifinite (with the ELH) to 30. Or there's the cynical "D&D IS WOW! MADE BY BLIZZARDS OF THE COAST!" approach and say since WoW added 10 levels in its expansion, obviously 4th Ed is adding 10 levels to copy them.

Matthew
2007-12-25, 08:19 AM
Wasn't there just a Thread about this a couple of days ago?

Dungeons & Dragons and MMORPGs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67319)

Drascin
2007-12-25, 11:25 AM
And for some reason I thought that this thread will be about moe characters (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoeMoe) in DND. Which would be very weird.

Same. Caused me to stare at the screen for about second with an "Huh?!" look in my face.

Tallis
2007-12-25, 11:51 AM
Adding more levels is also considered an MMO style thing, despite D&D having had level number creep in all its editions since the 70s.

OD&D had 36 levels plus immortals rules (5 box set) when I started playing. AD&D listed levels from 1 to 24 or so (varied by class), but didn't have any actual limit. It wasn't until 2e that levels were limited to 20, then the epic level handbook came out...

So for me it seems like the level limits were going down for a while.

I think the power creep within each level, faster leveling, and more focus on combat remind me the most of video games. Also we are moving away from medievil roleplaying side and more towards the high fantasy end of the spectrum.

kamikasei
2007-12-25, 03:38 PM
And for some reason I thought that this thread will be about moe characters (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoeMoe) in DND. Which would be very weird.

We need stats for this. Go to it, homebrew monkeys!

Tengu
2007-12-25, 07:33 PM
We need stats for this. Go to it, homebrew monkeys!

Hmm. Class, feat, or template? I'm thinking the last one.

------------------------------------
A rough sketch:
+6 cha, -2 all other stats.
Charisma to AC when not wearing armor.
Making a hostile action against the moe character requires a will saving throw, DC 10+cha+1/2 level.
-2 to all dex-based skills (dojikko is the staple of moe).
-6 to intimidate.
+6 to diplomacy.
LA +0.

Prerequesites:
Female or very cute and girly boy.
Non-evil alignment.
------------------------------------

How does it look?

Closet_Skeleton
2007-12-25, 07:44 PM
OD&D had 36 levels plus immortals rules (5 box set) when I started playing.

You mean basic D&D? Which had supplements which purely increased the level cap.


AD&D listed levels from 1 to 24 or so (varied by class)

20 levels may have been average though.

So for me it seems like the level limits were going down for a while.


I think the power creep within each level, faster leveling, and more focus on combat remind me the most of video games. Also we are moving away from medievil roleplaying side and more towards the high fantasy end of the spectrum.

:amused:

Dungeons and Dragons has never been about medieval roleplay. The whole fact that you go down ruins and caves to kill monsters should have given it away. If this was a game about bloodthirsty gangsters exploiting starving peasants and calling themselves civilised Kings as they fought off people who could were actualyl literate and able to be civil to each other while a monotheistic Church lined their pockets like gangsters while complaining like peasants, then it would be medieval roleplay. Instead it's about killing a bizzare mixture of Greek mythological monsters and beasts thought up by a couple of lonely old racist men in the 30s-50s. You want realism? Underground basements and catacombs, left unattended tend to fill up with rubble and become unenterable while any treasures inside are completely broken by the time they're recovered.

D&D has always been High Fantasy, it's just that High Fantasy has changed.

So I'm being unfair, meh

The reason there's more focus on combat is that somebody has finally worked out that the Trap Rules sucked. You can't say that 3rd edition has more of a focus on combat than 2nd edition and say that 2nd edition didn't bog you down with rules if you strayed away from combat.

Roleplay has always been what you do, not what the rules focus on. The way you play D&D is probably better than the games designer's intent but do not mistake it for the games designer's intent.


+6 cha, -2 all other stats

No, moe is the use of inane kinks as a substitute for a properly worked out personality. Moe characters should not have something that makes them more insteresting people, they should impose a penalty on sense motive checks to stop people noticing how uncharismatic they are.


Non-evil alignment.

Those twins from Black Lagoon would disagree.

Tengu
2007-12-25, 07:54 PM
No, moe is the use of inane kinks as a substitute for a properly worked out personality. Moe characters should not have something that makes them more insteresting people, they should impose a penalty on sense motive checks to stop people noticing how uncharismatic they are.


That depends on the interpretation of Charisma. That strong desire to cuddle and comfort such characters that only those of strong will can oppose sounds like charisma to me, even if of the unintentional sort.



Those twins from Black Lagoon would disagree.

Not familiar with this series, I'm afraid - I don't really know a lot of moe first-hand. Scratch that prerequesite then.

Matthew
2007-12-25, 08:03 PM
You mean basic D&D? Which had supplements which purely increased the level cap.

Nah, I expect he means OD&D, the original three booklets.


Dungeons and Dragons has never been about medieval roleplay. The whole fact that you go down ruins and caves to kill monsters should have given it away. If this was a game about bloodthirsty gangsters exploiting starving peasants and calling themselves civilised Kings as they fought off people who could were actualyl literate and able to be civil to each other while a monotheistic Church lined their pockets like gangsters while complaining like peasants, then it would be medieval roleplay. Instead it's about killing a bizzare mixture of Greek mythological monsters and beasts thought up by a couple of lonely old racist men in the 30s-50s. You want realism? Underground basements and catacombs, left unattended tend to fill up with rubble and become unenterable while any treasures inside are completely broken by the time they're recovered.

D&D has always been High Fantasy, it's just that High Fantasy has changed.

That stupid gangster analogy that has recently become popular really annoys me, as I consider it very misleading, but I otherwise agree with the thrust of this.


So I'm being unfair, meh

Heh, nearly missed that...

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-25, 08:55 PM
Moe, as it is known, has never really appealed to me. I have my kinks, but they don't include weak-willed whiny girls in maid costumes. I mean, I get all the moe I can stand from only two shows, one of which is making fun of the concept and one of which has the character in question surrounded by the single manliest crew of ass-kickers in the history of television, (and a rifle-toting action girl to suit my fanservice needs) so it cancels out.

Tengu
2007-12-25, 09:34 PM
Well, everyone knows that real geeks have a high will save, so they can easily resist moe's fake charm. And I can only assume that the second show is Nadesico.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-25, 09:50 PM
Gurren-Lagann, actually (Nia counting as Moe, at least when she isn't evil).

Nadesico didn't really have any moe characters, just idiots and girls whose catch-phrase is "idiots". Also, "manly" isn't how I'd describe their crew. Not if I didn't want to laugh my ass off when applying it to Akito or go home in parts after applying it to most of the rest of the crew.

Tengu
2007-12-25, 10:44 PM
Well, the majority of what I know of both of these shows comes from these forums and TV Tropes, so my guessing can be really horribly off-target sometimes. Please don't ask me to watch them, I still need to catch up with Avatar.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-25, 10:46 PM
They're your next two after it. Except maybe Megas XLR, which I need to watch myself.

Man, I watch too many giant robot shows.

horseboy
2007-12-25, 11:09 PM
They're your next two after it. Except maybe Megas XLR, which I need to watch myself.

Man, I watch too many giant robot shows.

I really wish I knew why I've been on such a Megas kick all of a sudden. Somebody reminded me of it, and I've been watching You-tubes of it all day ever sense. :smallconfused:

To the OP, I'd have to say this is more of an egg and chicken thing. Given that most MMO's are based off of some permutation of D&D, and now D&D is just harvesting the seeds sown.

bluish_wolf
2007-12-26, 05:32 AM
Well, everyone knows that real geeks have a high will save, so they can easily resist moe's fake charm. And I can only assume that the second show is Nadesico.

That's silly. I'm as geeky as they come and am completely addicted to moe. How anyone can not love moe is beyond me.

Drascin
2007-12-26, 09:43 AM
That's silly. I'm as geeky as they come and am completely addicted to moe. How anyone can not love moe is beyond me.

Thing is, from what I gather, due to its nebulous and ill-defined nature, apparently everyone understands moe in a different manner (making it quite useless as a term), so before making such statements, you first have to tell them what you particularly are understanding for moe.

In fact I had always previously thought it was a way of signifying a particular type of liking of a character (involving more the kind of warm fuzzies and protecting instinct one gets from seeing one's younger sister playing around than the kind of liking based on personality empathy), not a kind of character itself :smalltongue: . Incidentally, I realized I was probably wrong and had to research the term again after seeing Haruhi, as moe as I thought it was to be understood just didn't seem to be appliable to Mikuru in any way, shape or form no matter how much thought I put into it :smallbiggrin:

Also, Tengu is quite right: experienced geeks have enough genre savvyness and unconscious trope knowledge that their Will saves for this kind of things can get fairly high. Your case might be a case of voluntarily failing saves due to your like of the theme, much like most gamers keep voluntarily failing our Will saves to disbelieve while playing tabletop RPGs :smallamused:

...And I am just now realizing that we have gone horribly off-topic. Shutting up now...

bluish_wolf
2007-12-26, 10:00 AM
not a kind of character itself :smalltongue: . Incidentally, I realized I was probably wrong and had to research the term again after seeing Haruhi, as moe as I thought it was to be understood just didn't seem to be appliable to Mikuru in any way, shape or form no matter how much thought I put into it :smallbiggrin:


Haruhi also calls Mikuru a Lolita, which is just wrong no matter how you look at it, so I would take anything she says with a grain of salt.

Tengu
2007-12-26, 11:08 AM
They're your next two after it. Except maybe Megas XLR, which I need to watch myself.

Man, I watch too many giant robot shows.

Let's see can I resist that direct commant with a Will saving throw:

1d20+5

EDIT: Gah, I can't even make the forum roller work for me.


Haruhi also calls Mikuru a Lolita, which is just wrong no matter how you look at it, so I would take anything she says with a grain of salt.

Well, in Japan that word means the certain style more than actual age, and is rarely used in a dirty way. Most Japanese who use it don't even know where the word lolita came from.

And well, I find some elements of moe, for example already mentioned dojikko, quite charming. But only if they are just aspects of an otherwise interesting and more or less strong female character, not the defining value.

horseboy
2007-12-26, 11:09 AM
That's silly. I'm as geeky as they come and am completely addicted to moe. How anyone can not love moe is beyond me.
Usually because they try too hard. Me personally, I loathe incompetent people. The notion of dating a female Shinji fills me with nothing but dread.

bluish_wolf
2007-12-26, 11:55 AM
I always considered moe to be a particular feeling you get when you look at certain characters. Kind of like, when you say a character is hot, it's because it makes you feel hot. So, when people say they don't like moe, it's similar to someone saying they don't like hot people. It just strikes me as odd.

Tengu
2007-12-26, 12:38 PM
It seems the misunderstanding comes from what moe might mean:

1. A cute character that makes you feel warm.
2. A character whose cuteness comes solely from its weaknesses.

Bluish_wolf uses the first definitions, most of the other people the second one.

Did I say this thread is not about moe characters in DND? Seems it is now.

Winterwind
2007-12-26, 01:05 PM
I think it should be a template, too. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_Szyslak)

It has a CHA-4 penalty and the following benefits:
- adds Mix Drinks to the class skills
- Mix Drinks +5
- BAB+10, but only applied to attacks directed against the character him/herself
- Deal with Depression+3
- Fail to Deal with Depression+6
- Aura of Repell Other Gender; every person of the opposite gender who encounters this character must roll a DC 35 Will Save, or flee in utter panic.



...what? :smalltongue:

Drascin
2007-12-26, 02:17 PM
I think it should be a template, too.

It has a CHA-4 penalty and the following benefits:
- adds Mix Drinks to the class skills
- Mix Drinks +5
- BAB+10, but only applied to attacks directed against the character him/herself
- Deal with Depression+3
- Fail to Deal with Depression+6
- Aura of Repell Other Gender; every person of the opposite gender who encounters this character must roll a DC 35 Will Save, or flee in utter panic.



...what (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_Szyslak)? :smalltongue:

No, no, Winterwind. Moe Szyslak is an individual NPC, not a template, and should be statted as such, even if he does have a "the world hates me" template on him apart from his class levels that we need to model. Though we might need a special NPC PrC of Master Barkeep for him.

(Now seriously, that made me laugh :smalltongue: )


It seems the misunderstanding comes from what moe might mean:

1. A cute character that makes you feel warm.
2. A character whose cuteness comes solely from its weaknesses.

Bluish_wolf uses the first definitions, most of the other people the second one.

Did I say this thread is not about moe characters in DND? Seems it is now.

Exactly. That is the main problem with discussing moe: that it's so damn undefined that nobody in the debate is on the exact same grounds as the others. It's like debating houseruled games - since no one's game is the same, there's no way to argue meaningfully. This is why I opened with my own definition of moe - so that people knew where I was coming from in case I started rambling wildly as I'm wont to do at times :smalltongue: .

And yeah, it seems we have officially hijacked this thread :smallamused: . Now, to think how to insert the moe phenomenon in D&D... if we work hard enough, we might even give some aneurysms to a few people running around :smallwink:


Usually because they try too hard. Me personally, I loathe incompetent people. The notion of dating a female Shinji fills me with nothing but dread.

Mmmmm... As I see it, Shinji wasn't just incompetent - that, I'd forgive easily. After all, I know that there are people who just don't seem to get anything right whatever they do, and I'm not mean enough to fault them for it (of course, my being so understanding could be due to the fact that I'm basically one of them :smalltongue: ), and hey, the pressure of being an Eva pilot would be enough to make anyone fumble anyway. No, the thing that makes me - and, I gather, quite a large segment of the viewers - dislike Shinji is the fact that a lot of time he whines far more than the circumstances would warrant. Some, because they see it as weak, me, because I see it as egotistical, but in general, it's not an endearing trait, and I join you in that last statement.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-26, 02:42 PM
In fact I had always previously thought it was a way of signifying a particular type of liking of a character (involving more the kind of warm fuzzies and protecting instinct one gets from seeing one's younger sister playing around than the kind of liking based on personality empathy), not a kind of character itself :smalltongue: . Incidentally, I realized I was probably wrong and had to research the term again after seeing Haruhi, as moe as I thought it was to be understood just didn't seem to be appliable to Mikuru in any way, shape or form no matter how much thought I put into it :smallbiggrin:
Actually, it might make sense if you consider the fan-theory that
Mikuru is Kyon's time-displaced little sister. I think there's enough canon evidence (and squick factor) to make this untrue, but you never know.

Regarding Shinji...he whines a lot, but do the circumstances really not warrant it? I don't like the character, but I don't think he was portrayed unreasonably either, given the amount of **** that happened to him.

Great, now I'm going off-topic from the off-topic tangent.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-26, 02:46 PM
Shinji actually doesn't look moe in the least. He does, however, look like a rearrangement of those three letters (Emo), and has the Butt Monkey template. If someone would just make him confront his issues he'd come off as a pretty normal bloke.

Hmm...shouldn't we build Moe-Moe (X) templates instead of a single general one? For example, one Moe-Moe template could grant bonuses on tripping yourself and Diplomacy, while another one gives you the Helloooooooooooo Nurse! Template + goodies.

bluish_wolf
2007-12-26, 02:58 PM
How about this:

Feat. Moe. Requires CHA 13+
You have a warm demeanor that makes people around you feel comforted.
Grants +1 to your allies saves vs fear, +4 to diplomacy, and -4 to intimidate

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-26, 03:03 PM
Sounds neat, but perhaps we need to cover the basic archetypes? We might need a few more feats.

Tengu
2007-12-26, 03:09 PM
We could make more feats for other, more specific types of moe, that would have the more general moe feat as a prerequesite.

As for Shinji, even if he was moe for some people, he certainly stopped after
masturbing over unconscious Asuka. I mean, ew...

bluish_wolf
2007-12-26, 03:15 PM
Clumsy
You have a tendency to fall down a lot. On the bright side, you are better at catching yourself when you fall, simply, because you do it so often.
-5 to balance. +7 to jump (only for resisting fall damage)

Drascin
2007-12-26, 03:16 PM
Actually, it might make sense if you consider the fan-theory that
Mikuru is Kyon's time-displaced little sister. I think there's enough canon evidence (and squick factor) to make this untrue, but you never know.

...Okay, that's totally messed up. Also, I like to think I'm fairly knowledgeable when it comes to SHnY, given I'm a hardcore fan, and I had never heard that one. Is there any amount of proof or foreshadowing I missed, or is this just a Half Dragon Paragon Epileptic Tree?



Regarding Shinji...he whines a lot, but do the circumstances really not warrant it? I don't like the character, but I don't think he was portrayed unreasonably either, given the amount of **** that happened to him.

Great, now I'm going off-topic from the off-topic tangent.

Oh, I know. That is why I mentioned "at times". Believe me, I'm sympathetic with his plight, and I have defended him in many a forum debate - "whining" when you're forced into a battle where there is a very realistic possibility that you may end up being imploded by an unearthly monster, given you know the guy forcing you there to be the biggest bastard on Earth's crust, is not only fairly normal, but expected. My gripe and subsequent dislike is more on the level of him being apparently unable to deal with anything, keep priorities straight (or even constant), and, mainly, his great ability to keep ignoring any and all advice that could actually help him with some of his issues and still complain no one tries to help him. Still, I don't hate him - just feel that he needs a good whacking over the head and a few years of therapy before being anything near a bearable friend :smalltongue: . I could go into a page-long rant (I happen to be pretty verbose when it comes to characterization issues - I still remember that three-page-long discourse about Haruhi on a forum game), but, as you say, it would be derailing the thread yet again (would two 180 twists mean we're back on the original subject? :smalltongue: )

EDIT: Whoa, triple ninja'd.

Tengu, that incident is for me with a foot in DisContinuity, since End of Eva butchered not only Shinji's characterization, but pretty much everyone else's. So no troubles :smallwink: . I still somewhat take it into account, but... the wonder, the power, of being able to absolutely ignore part of the canon of a series just because you feel like it is thrilling. Now I understand the fangirls :smallamused:

Anyway, yeah. We need moe feat trees that reflect the most common trends in attempting to make a character feel moe. But first, let's classify what feat trees we're going to need. Which archetypes should we go into? Dojikko is obvious as it's probably the flagship, but what else? Mmmm... Recent watching of Lucky Star makes the phenomenon of Imouto-moe (to which I happen to be brutally vulnerable, having an adorable little sister, so any character that reminds me of her is bypassing my layers of cynicism and going straight for my "Awww!" centers like an Energy Lance goes through vehicle armor) fresh in my mind. And I'm not sure if Meganekko and the like count as actual moe elements or simply fetishes.

Lessee what other types we can come up with...

bluish_wolf
2007-12-26, 03:22 PM
Even if Shinji were a girl, I wouldn't consider him moe.

Glasses of [insert magic effect]. In addition to whatever it's enchanted with, it also makes your eyes appear bigger, which is cute.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-26, 04:29 PM
...Okay, that's totally messed up. Also, I like to think I'm fairly knowledgeable when it comes to SHnY, given I'm a hardcore fan, and I had never heard that one. Is there any amount of proof or foreshadowing I missed, or is this just a Half Dragon Paragon Epileptic Tree?
It's bearable if you think of Kyon's sexual attraction as merely misplaced affection, but yeah, it's not something I subscribe to. And I got it from the TVTropes Wild Mass Guessing (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WMG/SuzumiyaHaruhiNoYuutsu) page, so it's definitely out there.

Also, I was thinking this
Cute Glasses
These enchanted eyeglasses subtly enlarge the wearer's eyes, making them appear cute and vulnerable. They grant the wearer a +2 equipment bonus to Diplomacy, and may be used to create a Charm Person effect (DC 11), as the spell, once per day.
Faint Enchantment; CL 1st; Craft Wondrous Item, Charm Person

And alternatively
Scary Shiny Glasses
These enchanted eyeglasses block out others' view of the wearer's eyes, making them appear more intimidating, granting a +2 equipment bonus on Intimidate checks. They are also enchanted to make the wearer's very mind unreadable, granting a constant Mind Blank effect.
Strong Abjuration; CL 15th; Craft Wondrous Item, Mind Blank

Yuki Nagato once possessed a rare pair of glasses that have both effects. These were lost after the best Magical Girl fight in the history of time.

horseboy
2007-12-26, 04:55 PM
It seems the misunderstanding comes from what moe might mean:

1. A cute character that makes you feel warm.
2. A character whose cuteness comes solely from its weaknesses.

Bluish_wolf uses the first definitions, most of the other people the second one.

Did I say this thread is not about moe characters in DND? Seems it is now.

The problem is that they try to make 1, but always over do it into a 2. As every puppy grows up, every moe has to grow into something else. Kinda like Willow did. Other wise it just gets really annoying.

bluish_wolf
2007-12-26, 05:32 PM
The problem is that they try to make 1, but always over do it into a 2. As every puppy grows up, every moe has to grow into something else. Kinda like Willow did. Other wise it just gets really annoying.

What are you talking about? Whose Willow? Puppies? None of this makes sense.

horseboy
2007-12-26, 06:41 PM
What are you talking about? Whose Willow? Puppies? None of this makes sense.

Willow, from Buffy.

bluish_wolf
2007-12-26, 07:02 PM
Willow, from Buffy.

TV show from the 90's, right? Never saw it. Well, anyway, if they try to make a moe character, and it's just a pathetic loser, than it isn't a well-written character... or even moe, really. So, really, what you don't like is people trying to cash in on moe, not moe itself.

horseboy
2007-12-26, 07:29 PM
TV show from the 90's, right? Never saw it. Well, anyway, if they try to make a moe character, and it's just a pathetic loser, than it isn't a well-written character... or even moe, really. So, really, what you don't like is people trying to cash in on moe, not moe itself.

Pretty much. Moes have a reputation of being as "real" as a teen pop star.

Tengu
2007-12-26, 08:13 PM
Scary Shiny Glasses
These enchanted eyeglasses block out others' view of the wearer's eyes, making them appear more intimidating, granting a +2 equipment bonus on Intimidate checks. They are also enchanted to make the wearer's very mind unreadable, granting a constant Mind Blank effect.
Strong Abjuration; CL 15th; Craft Wondrous Item, Mind Blank


Like those Ikari Gendo is wearing?
http://www.ffrpg.republika.pl/gendo.PNG

Another feat!
Spoon Speaker
You speak in a cute, but mostly completely incomprehensible manner. You gain +4 on all diplomacy checks, but your diplomacy attempts take 50% more time than normally.


The problem is that they try to make 1, but always over do it into a 2. As every puppy grows up, every moe has to grow into something else. Kinda like Willow did. Other wise it just gets really annoying.

I wouldn't say always. There's a lot of cute, but flawed characters in anime. Tastes vary, but I think that it would be more or less universal if I say that Nagato Yuki qualifies. If you don't look at my avatar for too long, I mean.

Artemician
2007-12-26, 08:37 PM
Did someone say Moe feats?

Yandere
You're Moe. Except when you're, uh, not. Really not. Not to such an extent that you bypass every single aspect of your personality entirely and turn into a evil ugly hag. Yea, it's that bad. And also scary. Run away!
Prerequisites: Moe, BaB +6, Cha 13+
Benefit:When using the "Draw Weapon" action with a melee weapon, you may make a Perform (Weapon Drill) check as a free action. Resolve this check as an Intimidate check to Demoralize an opponent. You gain a +4 bonus on this check.

If you have the Frightful Presence feat, you gain a further +2 bonus on this check.

Drascin
2007-12-27, 06:12 AM
This morning, while I was still in that drowsy, lucid dreaming state before you wake up, I remembered this thread and came up with a few feats for the Dojikko tree while half-asleep. So let's write before I forget them!

---------------------------

Dojikko
Let's face it: you're a klutz. Your fingers seem to tie up of their own accord, and your feet have about the same stability of an inverted pyramid. However, you have the gift to make this apparent defect strangely endearing.

Prerrequisites: Cha 13+

Effect: You get a -4 in all Dex-based skill checks, and in any rolls to resist being tripped. However, you get a +4 unnamed bonus to Diplomacy and Sense motive against anyone who sees you fail one of those, as they can't help but feeling sorry for you. Also, you can get up from prone as a free action at the beginning of your turn: you've spent so much time falling down that getting up again is almost a reflex movement for you (you still provoke AoO)


Oportune tripping
Even in battle, you keep tripping with your own feet and falling to the ground... and causing attacks directed at you to go over your head completely, to the infinite frustration of your enemies.

Prerrequisite: Dojikko

Effect: Once per encounter, you may fall prone in response to a ranged attack directed at you, causing it to miss completely. You may use this ability after it's decided that the attack is a hit, but before the damage is rolled. This feat is involuntary, and can therefore be used even if your character is flatfooted or otherwise doesn't see the attack coming.

(Note: yes, this was inspired by Collette from Tales of Symphonia, who might very well be my favorite dojikko :smalltongue:. And continuing with her... )


Divine Clumsiness (the name is what other characters call Collete's trait at times, so until I get a better name I'll go with this)
Yes, you keep messing up and generally being a bit of a bother - but everyone is perfectly willing to overlook it thanks to your uncanny ability to fall right onto that secret switch not even the rogue has been able to find.

Prerrequisites: Dojikko, Oportune tripping

Effect: Once per day, after failing a Search check, if the matter to be found is important (even if you don't know it to be so), you may trigger this ability. With it, you will just happen to find whatever it is accidentally - you trip and try to catch yourself by grabbing the chandelier that opens the secret door, or you'll crash onto the bookshelf with thousands of books and just end up with the most important one right on your head. This feat is, of course, very subject to the DM, so discuss it with him before taking it. If you are using Complete Scoundrel, yes, this may count as a Luck feat as well (I don't have the book, but I assume they'll be somewhat on this style).


Blundering Charge
You charge valiantly at the enemy, with your weapon ready! ...And only a few feet before the clash, you slip and are sent flying towards the unwitting enemy's face with a crash. Well, at least you tied him down...

Prerrequisites: Dojikko, Opportune tripping

Effect: When you charge an enemy, you may choose to "blunder". If you do so, after the charge attack, you are entitled to an overrun attempt with a +8 bonus. If you succeed, both you and your enemy crash, and land 5' behind said enemy, both of you prone and dazed for 1 round. If you fail the overrun, you fall to the ground, prone, before the enemy.


Lousy Grip
You swing your weapon strongly... maybe a bit too strongly, in fact, judging from the fact it's now flying across the room. Wait, did it just hit the boss square in the face?! Yay!

Prerrequisite: Dojikko

Effect: whenever you fumble a melee attack, you can choose to lose your grip on the weapon. This entitles you to a free attack against an enemy to which you have line of effect (despite being at a distance, treat this attack as a normal melee attack with all your modifiers). Line of sight, or the actual ability to see the enemy, is irrelevant - it's not like you're aiming this anyway! Of course, after this, you're disarmed, so bring extra weapons just in case.

------------------------------

I just know I had a couple more, but I have forgotten them :smallannoyed: . Why do dreams erase from the mind so quickly? Anyway, for a start I'd say this can be appropiate.

...And now, for my "ultimate" feat (I like to finish up feat trees with very big feats, Weapon Supremacy-style, to reward people who complete the trees, and given this is at least 5 feats of a grand total of 7 feats a character normally gets, I want to make it strong)... I am still polishing this one, but I think the concept is good:


Walking Catastrophic Zone (Ultimate Dojikko feat)
There's ham-handed, there's klutzy, there's dangerously clumsy... and then there's you. You don't mean it, of course, but the fact stands that your allies keep running for cover if you're near them, and that the amount of destruction you cause would probably make Attila himself want to ask you for particular classes.

Prerrequisites: Dojikko, Opportune Tripping, Lousy Grip, Blundering Charge, a number of HD I'm still not sure.

Effect: Once per arc week, you can start a chain reaction of pure chaos - you slip and let your weapon fly... and watch in awe and embarrasment as it starts hitting everything within the room, making lamps fall and tables crash on other things, and the flying debris keep knocking people's weapons out of their hands and sending them to the ground.

In game terms, this means that every breakable (Hardness < 15) unattended object inside the room (or a 60' area, if you're out in the open) is sundered in the twister of flying items, and every other creature inside the room suffers a disarm attempt and a trip attempt. Instead of rolling your normal trip and disarm rolls, for these use a roll of 1d20 + your character level + your Cha modifier + the number of dojikko feats you have (including this one), and have everyone oppose it.

Take note that "every other creature" is anything that is not you, meaning it includes your allies, so be prepared to apologize afterwards! :smalltongue:

-------------------------

So, what do you think? I have to polish them, of course, but I think it's a good start ^^.

I also was wondering if a Crash into Hello (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrashIntoHello) feat (allowing to auto-success a Gather Information check to find a particular person by merely bumping into said person inadvertently) would be for the Dojikko tree or a more general feat :smalltongue: . Thoughts?

Also, this might not be related to moe exactly, but after Nerd-o-rama's items, I just have to do this:

Armband of the Brigade Leader

This simple red cloth armband has "Ultra-Director" written in an eastern language on it in big characters.

As long as a character is wearing the Armband of the Brigade Leader, his or her leadership score is augmented by 5 and, as long as he's alive and fighting, all allies within 10' of him get a +2 bonus on Will saves against enemy effects.

In addition, the wearer can issue a greater command as per the spell once per day (Will save DC 17)

Medium enchantment; CL 9; Craft Wondrous Item, Greater Command.

Tengu
2007-12-27, 10:15 AM
Drascin - I don't know much about Colette, never seeing a PS2 with my own eyes and only playing Tales of Phantasia from the Tales series, but those feats are great and gave me a laugh (and made me go "awww" too)! Good job, though I don't really know what else could be added to the tree that you already had in mind but forgot - some wild arm-flailing attack perhaps?

As for Crash Into Hello, I think it should be a part of another tree (probably named Good Bad First Impressions) - after all, you see non-clumsy characters do it too, all the time.

Morty
2007-12-27, 10:38 AM
...
This thread should be put in Wikipedia as an example of thread derailment.

Tengu
2007-12-27, 11:07 AM
Yup. I'd be ashamed that I was one of the people who caused it, but I'm having too much fun with the thread's current form.

I was thinking on a Tsundere feat or prestige class, but then figured out there already is one - it's called Frenzied Berserker.

Ah, and I found out that the Spoon Speaker feat description made no sense. How ironic. It does now.

horseboy
2007-12-27, 11:27 AM
Divine Clumsiness (the name is what other characters call Collete's trait at times, so until I get a better name I'll go with this)
Yes, you keep messing up and generally being a bit of a bother - but everyone is perfectly willing to overlook it thanks to your uncanny ability to fall right onto that secret switch not even the rogue has been able to find.

Prerrequisites: Dojikko, Oportune tripping

Effect: Once per day, after failing a Search check, if the matter to be found is important (even if you don't know it to be so), you may trigger this ability. With it, you will just happen to find whatever it is accidentally - you trip and try to catch yourself by grabbing the chandelier that opens the secret door, or you'll crash onto the bookshelf with thousands of books and just end up with the most important one right on your head. This feat is, of course, very subject to the DM, so discuss it with him before taking it. If you are using Complete Scoundrel, yes, this may count as a Luck feat as well (I don't have the book, but I assume they'll be somewhat on this style).


LoL! Danger Prone Daphne Does it Again!

Drascin
2007-12-27, 11:59 AM
Drascin - I don't know much about Colette, never seeing a PS2 with my own eyes and only playing Tales of Phantasia from the Tales series, but those feats are great and gave me a laugh (and made me go "awww" too)! Good job, though I don't really know what else could be added to the tree that you already had in mind but forgot - some wild arm-flailing attack perhaps?

*ding!* Yeah, exactly! One of the other two feats was about the arm-flaling! It was a defensive one, too... I think I can reproduce the general idea. Something like...

-----------------------
Frantic armflailing
When you're attacked, you can't help but start flailing your weapon wildly to fend off the attacks. It's not all bad, though, because this certainly seems to be surprisingly effective in your case.

Prerrequisites: Dojikko.

Effect: If you're attacked with more than a single attack a turn, you'll start to get nervous and wave around, disrupting the sequence of your enemy. Basically, any attacks an opponent throws at you in a single turn apart from the first are subject to a cumulative -2 penalty.

As a side effect, any characters that are on a space adjacent to yours while you flail see the DC of all their Concentration checks increased by 5. This can be useful to hose enemy spellcasters.
-----------------------

...It wasn't exactly like that, but the base is there. Thanks! And also thanks for the praise. If this project takes off, I might just start using NPCs with these feats, so I'm trying to make them workable.

(Pssst, by the way. Not having ever seen a PS2 shouldn't be much of a handicap in this case, given Tales of Symphonia is a Gamecube game :smalltongue: .)



As for Crash Into Hello, I think it should be a part of another tree (probably named Good Bad First Impressions) - after all, you see non-clumsy characters do it too, all the time.

We'll have to look into that too, then. Any other ideas for such a tree?


...
This thread should be put in Wikipedia as an example of thread derailment.

But of the good sort, I'd say :smallwink: . The original topic would have caused little discussion at best, and might have erupted into a flamewar at worst, given the tired topic - while this little project of ours is just causing a few people to have entirely more fun than was expected :smallbiggrin:.

Still, if you wish to link it to Wikipedia as an example, by all means, do it. We might even get some extra collaborators that way! :smalltongue:


Yup. I'd be ashamed that I was one of the people who caused it, but I'm having too much fun with the thread's current form.

Same. Besides, this is my first actual thread derailment (as I'm usually one to stick to the topic at all costs), so I'm having a lot of fun.


I was thinking on a Tsundere feat or prestige class, but then figured out there already is one - it's called Frenzied Berserker.

Since Tsundere is the other kind of archetype I have a weakness for (having spent most of my teen years as a rare example of a male one), I had already thought a bit of it - but since I didn't know whether a Tsundere counted as moe or not, I refrained from mentioning it.

Suffice to say, I disagree with your assesment that Frenzied Berserker denotes Tsundere... I might be even willing to say it's more to the Yandere style - a character which usually behaves normally (out of Frenzy, a Berserker is but a normal warrior) but is prone to going into murderous uncontrolled rampage upon provocation? Yep, Yandere right there :smalltongue:

Tengu
2007-12-27, 12:29 PM
Frantic armflailing
When you're attacked, you can't help but start flailing your weapon wildly to fend off the attacks. It's not all bad, though, because this certainly seems to be surprisingly effective in your case.

Prerrequisites: Dojikko.

Effect: If you're attacked with more than a single attack a turn, you'll start to get nervous and wave around, disrupting the sequence of your enemy. Basically, any attacks an opponent throws at you in a single turn apart from the first are subject to a cumulative -2 penalty.

As a side effect, any characters that are on a space adjacent to yours while you flail see the DC of all their Concentration checks increased by 5. This can be useful to hose enemy spellcasters.


Woah, that's a strong feat, unless I mistook how it works... does it have any drawbacks?




(Pssst, by the way. Not having ever seen a PS2 shouldn't be much of a handicap in this case, given Tales of Symphonia is a Gamecube game :smalltongue: .)


Okay... replace "PS2" with "any console more advanced than Playstation 1 or Nintendo 64" in my post.



Suffice to say, I disagree with your assesment that Frenzied Berserker denotes Tsundere... I might be even willing to say it's more to the Yandere style - a character which usually behaves normally (out of Frenzy, a Berserker is but a normal warrior) but is prone to going into murderous uncontrolled rampage upon provocation? Yep, Yandere right there :smalltongue:

Hmm. Right, it'd have to be a variant, that would both enter and leave the frenzy much easier, but would also have a less powerful version of it (though it would probably have increased unarmed damage while doing so). And no, tsundere are probably not moe, at least not in the second definition.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-27, 01:16 PM
...
This thread should be put in Wikipedia as an example of thread derailment.
Frankly, this thread was an unimportant topic that could have been discussed in any of the thousands of other "D&D is becoming X" threads on this forum, and also had a really nonsensical title. I feel no remorse.

And yes, Tengu, Gendo is the posterboy for scary glasses. This reminds me, though,

Epic Shades
These colored sunglasses attach easily to the face of any humanoid, despite being about three times as wide as most human heads, and quite oddly shaped. Their awesome unfeasibility grants the wearer a +1 luck bonus to attack rolls and armor class.
Moderate Enchantment; Can't be buggered; Heroism; Craft Wondrous Item

Drascin
2007-12-27, 03:18 PM
Woah, that's a strong feat, unless I mistook how it works... does it have any drawbacks?

Well, after rethinking it, yeah, it's very powerful in standard D&D (and the fact that I forgot to mention you had to be fighting in full defense didn't exactly help) - thing is, since I run very heavy on ToB, the dependence on full attacks is greatly diminished, which would make this feat only useful against monsters with many melee attacks, so I didn't realize its power. After all, if any number of warblades pincer you and hit you with their best maneuver each, this feat would do nothing... but against an hydra, it would be a godsend (and the thought of a girl screaming and smacking hydra heads around with her eyes closed is just too fun to pass :smalltongue: ).

But yep, I'll rework it tomorrow morning.


Okay... replace "PS2" with "any console more advanced than Playstation 1 or Nintendo 64" in my post.

Heh. Alright then. Still, you're missing a lot. Oh, and this is Collette (http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u262/drascin/largeAnimePaperscans_Tales-of-Symph.jpg). Empath, Friend to All Living Things, saviour of the world... and proud owner of a Dex score not much higher than that of the average gelatinous cube :smallbiggrin: .


Hmm. Right, it'd have to be a variant, that would both enter and leave the frenzy much easier, but would also have a less powerful version of it (though it would probably have increased unarmed damage while doing so). And no, tsundere are probably not moe, at least not in the second definition.

I still say Tsundere, being a trait of character and not a set of abilities, would be more suited for feats or a template. The feats would give extra bonus if you happen to wear twin ponytails, of course :smalltongue:



Epic Shades
These colored sunglasses attach easily to the face of any humanoid, despite being about three times as wide as most human heads, and quite oddly shaped. Their awesome unfeasibility grants the wearer a +1 luck bonus to attack rolls and armor class.
Moderate Enchantment; Can't be buggered; Heroism; Craft Wondrous Item

... Do I smell Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann?

Many bonus points for the reference, Nerd-o-rama ^^

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-27, 06:29 PM
I have a limited exposure to anime, and TTGL is at the top of that list in terms of quality. I reference it rather a lot.

EDIT: Crap, when did I become an Ettin? Now I don't have an excuse to be snarky and forcibly derail threads anymore.

Cubey
2007-12-30, 01:19 AM
I believe someone asked for a Tsundere feat? Well, here's my take on it!

Tsundere
Your mood easily swings between aggressive and confrontional and affectionate or sentimental. For some reason, a certain kind of people finds this personality trait highly attractive.

Prerequisites: Cha 13+

Effect: You gain a Tsundere Score, TS for short, which has a base of 0, +1 if your hair is in pigtails, +1 if you wear grade A or B Zettai Ryouiki (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ZettaiRyouiki). Recalculate your Tsundere Score each time you change hairstyle or clothing. A number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier + TS*2 you may choose to act especially cranky, adding 4+TS unnamed bonus to your Intimidation skill for a single roll ("tsuntsun"), or unusually affectionate, adding 4+TS unnamed bonus to your Diplomacy skill for a single roll ("deredere").

Armor-Piercing Slap
Righteous bouts of rage allow you to smack whomever angered you into submission. It is much more effective than it sounds.

Prerequisites: Tsundere

Effect: You may spend one use of the Tsundere feat ability to perform an Armor-Piercing Slap as a standard action - a melee touch attack with a morale bonus to hit and damage equal to 2+TS. If you hit, you deal normal weapon damage, converted to non-lethal damage, and may initiate a Bullrush or Trip attempt on your target - you do not provoke an attack of opportunity, suffer no ill consequences of losing the check and may replace your Strength modifier with your Charisma+TS modifier. You also receive a +2 unnamed bonus to every Charisma-based skill used against the target for 1 minute (10 rounds) - it is cumulative with bonuses from subsequent uses of Armor-Piercing Slap.