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Burley
2007-12-27, 10:34 AM
I'm a big fan of using rules to my advantage. I'm also a big fan of finding problems in things. When I can find a problem with a rule and use that to my advantage...well, it's pretty sweet.

An example would be a multi-class rogue/caster. Adding sneak attack damage to spells isn't prohibited anywhere, to my knowledge. Add in those sweet, sweet d6s, I say.
(I'm a big fan of not making a fool of myself, too. Tell me if I'm wrong on that one.)

Anyways, I'm looking for more things like this that I can use to throw my DM for a loop. Even if it isn't in-game...I still love discussing loopholes.

The rules:
-D&D, and let's stick with 3.5ed, since it's what I understand.
-Also, none of the obvious rule abuse, like the spiked-chain-fighter. That's cool and all, but everybody and their mother knows how it works. Be more creative.
-Please be nice to each other. If you don't agree with somebody, give a good reason, like a page number or a logical vantage point. There is nothing wrong with debate, but arguing is for the weak minded.
-Have fun.
-Make me laugh.:biggrin:

Ikkitosen
2007-12-27, 10:37 AM
An example would be a multi-class rogue/caster. Adding sneak attack damage to spells isn't prohibited anywhere, to my knowledge. Add in those sweet, sweet d6s, I say.
(I'm a big fan of not making a fool of myself, too. Tell me if I'm wrong on that one.)

In fact this is specifically allowed - see complete arcane, on weaponlike spells. I'm not for munchkining, but I agree with building effective and interesting characters - more power to you.

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-27, 10:38 AM
Do Drowning to heal &Moving while dead count and moving faster via grappling .

Nebo_
2007-12-27, 10:42 AM
Also, none of the obvious rule abuse, like the spiked-chain-fighter.

What's abusive about a spiked chain fighter?

The Factotum, when using their ability to add int to damage, can do so with spells that deal ability damage. Chilling touch is suddenly a nice choice to take as a SLA.

Kaelik
2007-12-27, 10:50 AM
as For SA on spells. Try Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer (Complete Mage) 10/Arcane Trickster 4.

Lots of SA, and all but one caster level.

Of course if you really want to throw your DM for a loop, play a Wizard, use Save-or-suck/dies. Or just cast Polymorph. Not much harder then that.

Frosty
2007-12-27, 11:33 AM
Nothing says a Warblade can't end Reverie of Nessus with Ironheart Surge. Yes, everybody... Warblade > Aspect of Asmodeus

vegetalss4
2007-12-27, 11:51 AM
Nothing says a Warblade can't end Reverie of Nessus with Ironheart Surge. Yes, everybody... Warblade > Aspect of Asmodeus

could you explain what these things do, for us who does not have tome of nine swords?

cupkeyk
2007-12-27, 12:33 PM
From the WOTC Website:


Iron Heart Surge
Iron Heart
Level: Warblade 3
Prerequisite: One Iron Heart maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text

By drawing on your mental strength and physical fortitude, you break free of a debilitating state that might otherwise defeat you.

Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

Metal Head
2007-12-27, 12:34 PM
I'm a big fan of using rules to my advantage. I'm also a big fan of finding problems in things. When I can find a problem with a rule and use that to my advantage...well, it's pretty sweet.

Words can't express my disrespect for you.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-12-27, 12:41 PM
Yeah, nothing remotely cheesy about it...any spell that requires an attack roll (pretty much all rays and touch spells) that deal damage (magic/force/ability/negative levels) are potential SA spells. The sneak attack deals damage dame as the energy of the spell.

In this way, one with plenty of SA can cast shocking grasp and do as much damage as a fireball. Not to mention the orb spells that are ranged touch. I think mordenkein's sword works with sneak attack also. Melf's acid arrow, and some others. Good times.

Personally, If I was going to focus on spells that could be used with SA, I might take sorcerer instead of wizard so that I could focus on the SA capable spells.

Copacetic
2007-12-27, 12:54 PM
If you want to focus on SA-enabled spells, take warlock. Eldritch blast is a ray.

In fact, Warlock/Spellthief is scary. Borrow powerful spells from your caster buddies, steal spells from your enemies, eldritch blast everyone and their mother for sneak attack damage.

Mild cheese: Take the warlock invocation that gives dispel magic. Use it to counter every spell ever cast by your opponent. I think it'll work.

Burley
2007-12-27, 02:15 PM
What's abusive about a spiked chain fighter?


Well, there is nothing wrong at all with the spiked-chain-fighter. If I have the intention span to do the same thing over and over, I'd be all up on it. I was just asking for more...unknown uses of the rules. Nothing against abuse, just looking for new ways to do it.


Words can't express my disrespect for you.

Probably the same amout of disrespect I have for people who post in friendly forums for the express purpose of trying to be insulting. But, hey...at least you're witty. Good job.

cupkeyk or frosty: Could either of you post what the "Reverie of Nessus" does?

Metal Head
2007-12-27, 02:19 PM
Probably the same amout of disrespect I have for people who post in friendly forums for the express purpose of trying to be insulting. But, hey...at least you're witty. Good job.

cupkeyk or frosty: Could either of you post what the "Reverie of Nessus" does?

It's because it's people who abuse rules are what ruin many games, and cause many DM suicides.

DM: His level 3 character killed a Balor! All my fights die because of that ridiculous character! Farewell cruel world!
*gunshot*

Solo
2007-12-27, 02:23 PM
Words can't express my disrespect for you.

You're just not trying hard enough.

13_CBS
2007-12-27, 02:24 PM
It's because it's people who abuse rules are what ruin many games, and cause many DM suicides.

DM: His level 3 character killed a Balor! All my fights die because of that ridiculous character! Farewell cruel world!
*gunshot*

:smallannoyed: A DM who goes nuts over something like that isn't much of a DM at all, I think.

"Your level 3 character killed my Balor? Umm, no. Not happening."

"B-but my character can-"

"For the sake of the game, nope."

Gralamin
2007-12-27, 02:27 PM
Nothing says a Warblade can't end Reverie of Nessus with Ironheart Surge. Yes, everybody... Warblade > Aspect of Asmodeus

I'm assuming your attempting to dissolve the Anti-magic field he causes? Then again, Iron Heart surge wasn't designed well... At all.

Frosty
2007-12-27, 03:36 PM
Reverie of Nessus creates shaped 50 ft radius AMF around the wielder of the Ruby staff, and the wielder is surrounded by 6 walls of force (basically boxed in and protected. A cocoon if you will). Turn 1, all unwanted enchantment type effects like Dominate are gone. Turn 2, all HP are restored. Turn 3, the wielder is treated as if he had rested for a day, so all spells, Spell-like abilities and other things are all refreshed, and then Reverie of Nessus ends.

Iron Heart Surge can end all of that.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-12-27, 10:24 PM
With a roar of effort, I ...

was a lulzy WotC board Meme, with regard to IHS. Anyone have a link to the original thread?

CactusAir
2007-12-27, 11:01 PM
as For SA on spells. Try Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer (Complete Mage) 10/Arcane Trickster 4.

Lots of SA, and all but one caster level.

Of course if you really want to throw your DM for a loop, play a Wizard, use Save-or-suck/dies. Or just cast Polymorph. Not much harder then that.

Arcane trickster is weak tea. I suggest Divine Oracle instead

Factotum1/Wizard5/Unseen Seer8/Divine Oracle4/Nightmare Spinner2.

11d6 SA and up to 9d6 Iaijustu Damage.
Plus, bonus Illusion spell slots for each level and access to the Oracle domain, as well as evasion and uncanny dodge.


For real fun rules-abuse, there's always the Shadowcraft Mage.

And let's not forget the Sublime-Ur-Theurge.

My favorite thing to abuse however, has got to be the Practiced Spellcaster and Able Learner Feats.

Wiz3/Beg2/Ultimate Magus10/+Archmage or other wiz PRC's. 9th level wiz spells and you can power metamagic with your beguiler spells.

Gralamin
2007-12-27, 11:19 PM
Reverie of Nessus creates shaped 50 ft radius AMF around the wielder of the Ruby staff, and the wielder is surrounded by 6 walls of force (basically boxed in and protected. A cocoon if you will). Turn 1, all unwanted enchantment type effects like Dominate are gone. Turn 2, all HP are restored. Turn 3, the wielder is treated as if he had rested for a day, so all spells, Spell-like abilities and other things are all refreshed, and then Reverie of Nessus ends.

Iron Heart Surge can end all of that.

Only due to the Antimagic field as the other effects only affect Asmodeous.

kemmotar
2007-12-27, 11:48 PM
How about using an incantatrix for magic spell trigger with energy admixture, heighten spell and moilian something with a wand of fireball...you can make a simple fireball wand deal around 49d6 damage...might also maximize it while you're at it:smalltongue:

Also tripping can give the DM a nightmare...use knockdown from sword and fist(it's usually allowed) with goliath as a race for a free +4 to the trip. Now every time you deal damage you get a free trip attempt. You have to use unarmed strikes for this. Thus, you count as large for unarmed monk damage. Get the feral template, knockdown, impr trip(free for monks), superior unarmed strike(ToB), improved natural attack and a monk's belt. Now you deal too a whole lot of damage with each shot. Goliath and feral add +8 str, +8 to trip from impr trip and powerful build. Start with 18 str and without items you have d20+16 to trip, with no items. One of the hits is bound to trip him...when he gets up he either provokes an AoO or loses his round to get back up(unless he tumbles...well no ones perfect:smalltongue: )...i think there was also an enchantment that granted +2 or +4 on trip attempts...hmmm

Icewalker
2007-12-27, 11:49 PM
Actually, you've got the effect order on Reverie of Nessus wrong...because I like ridiculously pointless nitpicking! :smallbiggrin:

1: Purged of any unwanted enchantments.
2: purged of any diseases, poisons, physical maladies (such as lost body parts)
3: healed to full hp, feels as though they rested a full day, regaining spells etc.

Mark Hall
2007-12-27, 11:50 PM
Reverie of Nessus creates shaped 50 ft radius AMF around the wielder of the Ruby staff, and the wielder is surrounded by 6 walls of force (basically boxed in and protected. A cocoon if you will). Turn 1, all unwanted enchantment type effects like Dominate are gone. Turn 2, all HP are restored. Turn 3, the wielder is treated as if he had rested for a day, so all spells, Spell-like abilities and other things are all refreshed, and then Reverie of Nessus ends.

Iron Heart Surge can end all of that.

None of that looks like it's actually directly affecting the Warblade.

Epic_Wizard
2007-12-28, 01:54 AM
Reverie of Nessus creates shaped 50 ft radius AMF around the wielder of the Ruby staff, and the wielder is surrounded by 6 walls of force (basically boxed in and protected. A cocoon if you will). Turn 1, all unwanted enchantment type effects like Dominate are gone. Turn 2, all HP are restored. Turn 3, the wielder is treated as if he had rested for a day, so all spells, Spell-like abilities and other things are all refreshed, and then Reverie of Nessus ends.

Iron Heart Surge can end all of that.

One where is the creature that has this located? (I assume it is an Aspect of Asmodaeus)

Second since I am assuming this is an Epic Level encounter I can think of one very distinct way to get around this ability and two ways to accomplish it. It's called YOU CAN'T DO SQUAT IF YOU ARE DEAD!!!!!

1.) Use a custom epic level spell to pipe holy water out of the Sea of Celestia through a giant gate and drown the bugger in holy water (which would fill the force bubble thing when he erects it) and eventually kill him not to mention causing continuous concentration checks from the damage.

2.) Use the epic level spell I developed (it's around on these forums somewhere) which effectively drops a 90ft radius and I think several hundred feet high Cylinder of Adamantine on the target from 4 miles up and negates air resistance. When this thing hits it is moving at approximately 2 miles PER SECOND in normal earth gravity. Someone posted a link to an asteroid impact calculator back when I first posted about the spell and if I recall the crater was like fifty feet deep and several hundred feet wide. He can have his little force bubble but as soon as he comes out of it he is molecular paste. Oh and this is all for less than 200 spellcraft dice.

Failing this just have a bunch of casters ready actions to fill his square with Delayed Blast Fireballs as soon as he goes to activate that ability. Again force bubbles do no good at all if the danger is already sitting next to you waiting to explode. Heck on that note let him have his regen bit. Just cast Delayed Blast Fireballs set to go off immediately for all three turns and when he comes out and the AMF goes down the all blow up in his face because since AMF just suppresses ongoing effects (like a DELAYED Blast Fireball) the countdown would simply start back up as soon as the field when down. (Actually since if I recall correctly time spent in an AMF still counts against the duration of an effect so you would still need to delay the blasts depending on what you DM says)

You guys really need to tell me where I find this creatures because this ability of his is WAY to much fun to get around. :smallbiggrin:

Cuddly
2007-12-28, 01:56 AM
Persisted Greater Aspect of the Deity. Now you're a half-celestial all day.

Though my favorite broke build, for sheer elegance, was the cleric/warblade that could do infinite damage by using a weapon that did 1d2 damage.

Talic
2007-12-28, 02:55 AM
Only due to the Antimagic field as the other effects only affect Asmodeous.

Depends. The DM could rule that each part of the Reverie is a seperate effect. In that case, only the AMF would end.

Frosty
2007-12-28, 11:49 AM
Epic Wizard, Aspect of Asmodeus is found in Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the 9 Hells.

And the Reverie of Nessus is not activated by any effort on the part of the wielder. The effect automatically activates as an immediate action on the part of the Staff whenever the wielder...

1. Is subject to an unwanted enchantment
2. Drops below 50% HP

BardicDuelist
2007-12-28, 11:59 AM
For the Asmoedus thing: Basically, you have to try and get the Ruby Rod away from him (good luck there).

OP: Have you heard of PunPun? Ofcourse no DM would allow this, and would kill you for using most rules loop-holes.

cupkeyk
2007-12-28, 12:04 PM
Nothing says i can't add the Lyric Thaumaturge's Sonic Might dice to any spell with the sonic descriptor like Iron Thunder Horn, Glossolalia and Dirge of Discord.

Draz74
2007-12-28, 12:04 PM
Though my favorite broke build, for sheer elegance, was the mostly-Crusader based build that could do infinite damage by using a weapon that did 1d2 damage.

Fixed and QFT. That one doesn't even require any shady rules interpretations that your DM could argue with. He just has to either allow you to do infinite damage, or houserule something immediately. Now that's what I call elegant.

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-28, 12:04 PM
Depends. The DM could rule that each part of the Reverie is a seperate effect. In that case, only the AMF would end.

Just managing to kill off the antimagic field and other things like that with this power is stupid.

Burley
2007-12-28, 12:24 PM
Persisted Greater Aspect of the Deity. Now you're a half-celestial all day.

Though my favorite broke build, for sheer elegance, was the cleric/warblade that could do infinite damage by using a weapon that did 1d2 damage.

:smalleek: Tell me more of this...infinite damage that you speak of.

Frosty
2007-12-28, 12:26 PM
For the Asmoedus thing: Basically, you have to try and get the Ruby Rod away from him (good luck there).


Actually, the Reverie of Nessus only activates once per day. It's still damned broken though. Plus, if you can somehow blast through more than half of his HP in one attack, you can bypass it.

Metal Head
2007-12-28, 12:27 PM
:smallannoyed: A DM who goes nuts over something like that isn't much of a DM at all, I think.

"Your level 3 character killed my Balor? Umm, no. Not happening."

"B-but my character can-"

"For the sake of the game, nope."

In those situations it's the player who gets shot.

SurlySeraph
2007-12-28, 12:31 PM
:smalleek: Tell me more of this...infinite damage that you speak of.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=855878

BRC
2007-12-28, 12:34 PM
Get somthing that can't tire (like an undead or a construct or somthing) and somehow give it a + 18 modifier in perform (string instruments), give it a lyre of building and have it play indefinetally.

hamishspence
2007-12-28, 01:19 PM
Combinations using multiple products, plus info from Dragon Magazine:

Polymorph any object (trickery domain) Dragon article "More Bang For Your Bones" says you can polymorph one dead body into another, then animate it, and you have an animated monster dirt cheap. Example was squirrel to Dragon turtle. Ruled strictly, it ought to change back after a while.

To avoid this, stick with true dragons same age range: Reptilian, Dragon type, True dragon subcategory, same age.

Use Draconomicon dragon zombies: can be created with animate dead, them and skeletal dragons have no HD max, spell resistance, frightful presence, zombie has half strength breath weapon and fly. DR only 5/slashing.

Use desecrate spell + altar to double number of HD you can manage at once: 4 times your level. 20th level character can animate 80HD zombie. You can always control 4 times your hit dice.

So, 20HD Evil cleric with Trickery domain builds altar, casts desecrate polymorphs Great Red Wyrm body into 78HD Great Prismatic Wyrm body, casts Animate Dead, and he has a CR 34 monster under his control when he is CR 20.

OUCH!!!

Anyone thought of this sort of thing?

FirstAdam
2007-12-28, 01:45 PM
I had a lot of fun with a scout/swashbuckler/dervish with two weapon fighting. During the dervish dance, he's moving, so he'd get his skirmish bonuses WHILE getting a full attack. And the Swashbuckler adds his INT bonus on damage to each one, so with scimitars it'd do 1d6 + Str + Int + skirmish + dance modifier + any extra. Plus skill points out the wazoo. He was out party's sneaky, diplomatic tank.

hamishspence
2007-12-28, 02:03 PM
Reverie of Nessus only comes on the actual Rod. Aspect has a slightly lesser version of the Rod, so you need to face the Vile Darkness Asmodeus.

(you have to update him, since the free web enhancement covers only MMII, Deities, Manual of Planes, and Epic handbook)

So, if you are playing strictly by the rules, the CR 27 Aspect is not quite so horrible.

Frosty
2007-12-28, 02:07 PM
1) I can't figure out the stats for the lesser version of the Rod. Is it just a +6 weapon?

2) Is there a feat that stacks Swashbuckler and Scout levels for Skirmish damage?

Hyfigh
2007-12-28, 02:57 PM
*PAO Stuff*

Makes a kobold corpse actually worth something...

Epic_Wizard
2007-12-28, 03:33 PM
Okay seriously that Ruby Rod is THE GREATEST BOON EVER to a PC with decent knowledge and tactics. You can force the thing to trigger AND you can do sneaky things like trap him in there with a metric ton of Delayed Blast Fireballs. Even better just trigger it at the start of the battle and get the healing out of the way then. Even better you could have one spell caster prepare an action to cast Transmute Rock to Lava under the guy as soon as another spell caster dominates him. He can't move out of the lava and he will be taking 20d6 points of damage per round plus the fact that he will get stuck to a 5ft movement speed meaning even if he does survive and heals he will have to take MORE damage to get out of it.

I still like my little meteor impact spell though. :smallbiggrin:

Frosty
2007-12-28, 04:36 PM
You *do* realize Asmodeus...being the ruler of HELL...is immune to fire right? :smallbiggrin:

And good luck for a PC to roll high enough on the Knowledge (The Planes) check to know that much detail about Asmodeus's rod.

Burley
2007-12-28, 10:29 PM
Oh! I just though of something! Okay, um...Energy Substitution: Acid with Create Water? Would that create a geyser of acid? I think it should...that's how I'd play it...

Armads
2007-12-29, 02:38 AM
You can apply Energy substitution to create water?

Kaelik
2007-12-29, 02:53 AM
You can apply Energy substitution to create water?

There is a way. But it's not that easy.

You have to start by applying Flash Frost (I think) that adds some Cold damage, then you apply Energy sub. It doesn't really help much because it only does like 2 damage no matter what the duration.

Burley
2007-12-29, 10:12 AM
There is a way. But it's not that easy.

You have to start by applying Flash Frost (I think) that adds some Cold damage, then you apply Energy sub. It doesn't really help much because it only does like 2 damage no matter what the duration.

I dunno how to make it work, but I'd assume you have it correct. However...2 damage? Let's be serious. Create water by itself can do more damage than that, and knockback, right? And...it's acid. Acid splash is a tiny orb of acid and it does a d4...I would think that a bloody geyser of the junk would do at least...AT LEAST a d12, not to mention a splash effect with reflex save, from when the acid pools on the ground...

I should just make that a new spell and save everybody some trouble...

Or, I'll make that a brand new Fighter Bonus Feat and create even more trouble for everybody! Bwuahaha! It makes no sense, and therefore, I appove.

Cuddly
2007-12-29, 10:20 AM
Create water doesn't make a geyser. There's no knockback. I have no idea where you're getting the idea that a freakin' cantrip can do anything but lightly sprinkle on someone.

Abjurer
2007-12-29, 10:38 AM
Create water does create water, though. And large amounts of it-- what, two gallons per level? Meaning a 20th-level cleric can use an orison to instantly summon 40 gallons of water (which weighs, like, 333 pounds) over the head of an enemy. That enemy could be a fire elemental. And forty gallons of water will have no problem filling up a five-foot square. You could just stone shape a hole in the ground, seal your enemy in it, and fill it with water. And if you get enough clerics...

kemmotar
2007-12-29, 10:42 AM
How about rogue19/scout1 with swift hunter and improved skirmish? Swift hunter makes rogue levels and scout levels stack for SA and skirmish thus 10d6 SA and 5d6 +5AC skirmish. Impr skirmish adds +2d6 and 2AC (i think) for 20 ft movement. Add rapid shot and improved rapid shot couple with greater manyshot. For added goodness get an item with that cleric spell that gives you BAB equal to your CL(make it CL20)...

Even better use chronocharm of the horizon walker(swift action to move up to your speed)-> move more than 20ft as a swift action and be hidden->full attack with +17d6 for each attack->use a belt of battle and another chronocharm of the horizon walker to repeat if the target isn't dead yet:smallyuk:

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-29, 10:47 AM
Create water does create water, though. And large amounts of it-- what, two gallons per level? Meaning a 20th-level cleric can use an orison to instantly summon 40 gallons of water (which weighs, like, 333 pounds) over the head of an enemy.

Can't summon something on something that can't support it.

Uthug
2007-12-29, 11:02 AM
Something that is hopefully totally new and original!
Enveloping Pit from MIC - the one that functions like a portable hole, except deeper - + Handy Haversack = Instant Kill.

Burley
2007-12-29, 11:24 AM
Something that is hopefully totally new and original!
Enveloping Pit from MIC - the one that functions like a portable hole, except deeper - + Handy Haversack = Instant Kill.

Yes, sir. That has been done...mulitple times. The problem is that it is horribly expensive.

There is, however, another rule abusement that I thought of for quick travel. There are a lot of teleporting spells that will only affect you and your gear. How are you supposed to get your party to come with you? Well, many people would say: Put them in your Bag of Holding. That's all well and good, since things you put in stay the way there are indefinately. But, (This is explained to me, so, I have no backing other that word of mouth from various people. Tell me if I'm wrong) being that a bag of holding is extra-dimensional, there are all sorts of monsters and stuff that could eat you, if you don't suffocate first. Well, I figured it all out! Cast Sanctuary on yourself, hold your breath, and jump into that Bag of Holding. Your buddy teleports, a few rounds later, he opens in up, you get out and take a deep breath. Ta-da. Lower-level small group teleportation.

Uthug
2007-12-29, 12:03 PM
No it isn't. Cost of Enveloping Pit: 3.6k/5k, can't remember which, a Handy Haversack costs 3k or 2k, easily affordable to a low-mid level party. Its worth it to kill off a BBEG in 1-2 rounds, unless you're afraid of being smacked on the head with the DMG. Bonus for using Enveloping Pit as you can command it to immediately open if you have the True Believer feat.

Hasivel
2007-12-29, 12:21 PM
Can't summon something on something that can't support it.
Technically speaking Create Water isn't a summoning spell, it's a conjuration (creation) spell. You don't have to create those on something that can support them, otherwise stuff like Acid Arrow wouldn't work, you'd have to conjure the acid arrow on a surface, then pick it up and throw it.

Burley
2007-12-29, 01:00 PM
No it isn't. Cost of Enveloping Pit: 3.6k/5k, can't remember which, a Handy Haversack costs 3k or 2k, easily affordable to a low-mid level party. Its worth it to kill off a BBEG in 1-2 rounds, unless you're afraid of being smacked on the head with the DMG. Bonus for using Enveloping Pit as you can command it to immediately open if you have the True Believer feat.

The only thing I don't understand about people who use this "trick" is why they need to use BOTH items. Getting them to fall into one will keep there there long enough for you to reach it and close it, with them inside, which'd kill them in a matter of minutes.
Wasting both items is just a waste, and the 'instant kill' function isn't safe for your own character. There are two different effects, depending on what is put inside of what:
The death vortex created is pretty big, and would hit your character, too. Considering that a Handy Haversack/Bag of Holding would only have a range increment of 5-10 feet, being a safe distance away would be a hell of an inprovised attack roll. If you have the scores to be able to pull this off on anything less than a Natural 20, you should have skill enough in your repitoire to kill most things anyways, or at least anything that'd fit into any of these things.
The other effect is just a dimensional rift, not a death vortex. Sure, you wouldn't get hurt, but your DM could just say: "Well, yeah, you sent the wizard to another dimension, but he has Plane Shift...so...you'll being seeing him in another couple days."

And, it's not even really an abuse of the rules...since the DMG actually has the rules for the effects of mixing these sorts of items together.
I'd suggest just shelling out for a portable hole, put some sticks and leaves over the top, and pick it up when whatever you're trapping falls in. Cheap, effective, reusable...and a little Looney Toonish.

Idea Man
2007-12-29, 01:01 PM
Little know fact: outsiders do not need to eat, but can if they choose. They do not have a digestive tract as such, and it is unknown where the things they consume actually go. (I got this from Fiendish Codex I, but I would imagine this holds true with devils. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.)

Theoretically, a fiend could drink all the water you gave it, and it wouldn't even bulge. Theoretically.

Since Pun-Pun came up earlier, I'll ask this question; How is that build possible at third level? I know how the class/race thing works, but Master of Many Forms doesn't grant supernatural abilities at any level. I don't know about the psionic version (not my thing), and the shapechange version would work, but MoMF just doesn't seem to work. Did I miss something?

Epic_Wizard
2007-12-29, 03:14 PM
You *do* realize Asmodeus...being the ruler of HELL...is immune to fire right? :smallbiggrin:

And good luck for a PC to roll high enough on the Knowledge (The Planes) check to know that much detail about Asmodeus's rod.

Okay yes he is immune to fire but I guarantee you that he isn't immune to artificial meteor impacts that vaporize several hundred square yards of dirt.

Besides as the next guy brought up: Energy Substitution and I doubt that he or his aspect are immune to all energy forms.


Oh! I just though of something! Okay, um...Energy Substitution: Acid with Create Water? Would that create a geyser of acid? I think it should...that's how I'd play it...


Energy Substitution [metamagic feat]: Choose one type of energy: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You can modify a spell with an energy designator to use the chosen type of energy instead. A substituted spell works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt. A substituted spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level, modified by any other metamagic feats. Special: You can gain this feat multiple times; each time it applies to a different type of energy.

From here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20020609) which states clearly that you can only apply it to a spell that already has an energy descriptor and Flash Frost Spell does not grant the Cold type to a spell it only affects spells that already have that type.


There is a way. But it's not that easy.

You have to start by applying Flash Frost (I think) that adds some Cold damage, then you apply Energy sub. It doesn't really help much because it only does like 2 damage no matter what the duration.

See above for why this doesn't work.


I dunno how to make it work, but I'd assume you have it correct. However...2 damage? Let's be serious. Create water by itself can do more damage than that, and knockback, right? And...it's acid. Acid splash is a tiny orb of acid and it does a d4...I would think that a bloody geyser of the junk would do at least...AT LEAST a d12, not to mention a splash effect with reflex save, from when the acid pools on the ground...

I should just make that a new spell and save everybody some trouble...

Or, I'll make that a brand new Fighter Bonus Feat and create even more trouble for everybody! Bwuahaha! It makes no sense, and therefore, I approve.

Assuming that the above method did work (which it doesn't) it makes perfect sense. You would merely be creating a weak or diluted acid that would only do 2 points of damage. This is why you throwing up on the floor doesn't dissolve it. While the acid in your stomach is quite strong it is severely diluted.

Jc1991
2007-12-29, 03:24 PM
Since Pun-Pun came up earlier, I'll ask this question; How is that build possible at third level? I know how the class/race thing works, but Master of Many Forms doesn't grant supernatural abilities at any level. I don't know about the psionic version (not my thing), and the shapechange version would work, but MoMF just doesn't seem to work. Did I miss something?

The build in the first post of the thread is severely outdated; the new build is floating around in someone's signature, and can be summarized as follows:

"Pun-Pun just needs to make a DC 25 Knowledge: Religion check (possible at level 1 with most +0LA class/race combinations) to realize that saying Pazuzu's name three times will summon him to grant one wish (assuming the character isn't Chaotic Evil).
Use that wish for a Candle of Invocation, which you use to summon an Efreet.
Wish 1: Candle of Invocation.
Wish 2: Trip to another plane.
Wish 3: If Pun-Pun isn't already a "scaled one native to Toril", wish to be one.
Burn the second candle to summon a Sarrukh (from the Prime Material, which is now another plane).
Pun-Pun now has the Sarrukh he summoned teach him how to use Manipulate Form. And there are a variety of ways to proceed from there."
-CrimsonDeath

The details are available throughout the Pun-Pun thread (Manipulate Form is a horribly broken ability, presumably because it's only supposed to be available in a controlled manner to NPCs. It allows you to manipulate the form and abilities of "any Scaled One native to Toril" including ability scores and extraordinary abilities, and can theoretically be used to grant entirely new extraordinary abilities, among other things).

Solo
2007-12-29, 03:40 PM
Little know fact: outsiders do not need to eat, but can if they choose. They do not have a digestive tract as such, and it is unknown where the things they consume actually go. (I got this from Fiendish Codex I, but I would imagine this holds true with devils. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.)


The stuff they eat goes to a colon on the Etheral plane.

Just another hazard of Ethreal travel.

Forrestfire
2007-12-29, 04:07 PM
one of my favorite rule-loopholes is to use PAO to apply the paragon template (99*10^99~)(~ means that it continues as far as possible) times to a random corpse.

Kaelik
2007-12-29, 04:42 PM
Since Pun-Pun came up earlier, I'll ask this question; How is that build possible at third level? I know how the class/race thing works, but Master of Many Forms doesn't grant supernatural abilities at any level. I don't know about the psionic version (not my thing), and the shapechange version would work, but MoMF just doesn't seem to work. Did I miss something?

A big part of the funny is that any scaled one native to Toral that can call a Sarrukh can just have that creature as his service grant Manipulate Form as an extraordinary ability, because Manipulate Form can propagate itself in other forms. It can even be used to grant itself in a form that can affect the user.


From here which states clearly that you can only apply it to a spell that already has an energy descriptor and Flash Frost Spell does not grant the Cold type to a spell it only affects spells that already have that type.

I was doing it from memory (still am actually, but I remembered something.) Snowcasting to apply Cold descriptor, Energy sub to apply Acid. Now you have a 2 damage Acid effect. It still only creates Water, not acid, which is why it only does 2 damage.

How else do you think we create the Locate City Bomb?

Curmudgeon
2007-12-29, 05:24 PM
one of my favorite rule-loopholes is to use PAO to apply the paragon template (99*10^99~)(~ means that it continues as far as possible) times to a random corpse. That's obviously against the rules. A corpse is an object, not a creature:
“Paragon” is a template that can be added to any creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

The base creature’s type remains unchanged.

Darkantra
2007-12-29, 05:55 PM
Get a Duskblade, Quicken Cast True Strike and then use Arcane strike. That's all that ever needs to be used.

This post (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php%3Fp%3D2252831) describes exactly how to use it and since Duskblades have so many spells per day you can lay on the hurt with impunity.

Forrestfire
2007-12-29, 08:14 PM
That's obviously against the rules. A corpse is an object, not a creature:

I meant that you make it the corpse of a Paragon creature