The Mage (Wizard+Sorcerer) (Updated: 1/2/08)

[StickMan]

I set out to make a class that is a fusion of Wizard and Sorcerer because dividing the two classes in such a way has never sat right with me. I never see my Mages as Wizards or Sorcerers I normally picture them as a mix of both. In addition to this I've felt that Mages should not be only smart, or charismatic they should be both. Also making the class dependent on two mental scores means they can't only focus on one, making all others dump stats.

Give me your opinion on the class, and a general power level compared to other classes.

The Mage:
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d4.
Class Skills
The mage’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Points at 1st Level

(2 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level

2 + Int modifier.

Mage
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Eldritch Secrets|3|1|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3||4|2|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3||4|2|1|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Eldritch Secrets|4|3|2|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4||4|3|2|1|—|—|—|—|—|—

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5||4|3|3|2|—|—|—|—|—|—

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5||4|4|3|2|1|—|—|—|—|—

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Eldritch Secrets|4|4|3|3|2|—|—|—|—|—

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6||4|4|4|3|2|1|—|—|—|—

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7||4|4|4|3|3|2|—|—|—|—

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7||4|4|4|4|3|2|1|—|—|—

12th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8|Eldritch Secrets|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|—|—|—

13th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8||4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|—|—

14th|
+7/+2|
+4|
+4|
+9||4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|—|—

15th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+9||4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|—

16th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10|Eldritch Secrets|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|—

17th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10||4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1

18th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11||4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2

19th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11||4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3

20th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12| Eldritch Secrets|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4

[/table]

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the mage:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Mage's are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a mage’s gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

Spells
A Mage casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A mage must memorize a number of spells each day but can otherwise cast any memorized spell spontaneously (see below).

To learn, prepare or cast a spell, the mage must have an Intelligence and Charisma score equal to at least 10+ the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a mage’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the mage’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spell-casters, a mage can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on the table above. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high ability score equal to Charisma score+1/2(Intelligence Score-8).

A mage begins play with knowledge of a number of 0-level spells equal to 2+ her twice her intelligence modifier plus a number of first level spells equal to 1+ her Intelligence modifier. At every level after first the mage learns a number of spells equal to 1+ ½ her Intelligence modifier.

A mage may add spells to her spells known whenever she encounters one on a scroll or in a spellbook. No matter the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing. Next she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15+ spell’s level). If the check succeeds, the mage understands the spell and may add it to her spells known. The process consumes the magic of a scroll used to do this. This cost the mage a number of XP equal to 50 x spells level x the spells minimum caster level.

At the beginning of each day a mage selects a number of spells from his spells known list based on the following table. Once he has the selected spells memorized for the day the mage may cast these spells any number of times per day until he runs out of spell slots of the appropriate level.
{table=head]Spell Level|Spells prepared per day
Highest|1+(Intelligence Modifier-3)
Second Highest| 1+(Intelligence Modifier-2)
Third Highest| 1+(Intelligence Modifier-1)
Fourth Highest| 1+Intelligence Modifier
Fifth Highest| 1+Intelligence Modifier
Sixth Highest| 2+Intelligence Modifier
Seventh Highest| 2+Intelligence Modifier
Eight Highest| 2+Intelligence Modifier
Ninth Highest| 3+Intelligence Modifier[/table]

Eldritch Secrets: Mages learn other skills beside spell casting from there years of study in the magic arts. At first level you select two abilities from the following list and one more at level 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20:

Battle Intuition (Ex): You add your Wisdom modifier to AC as a competence bonus.

Armor Understanding (Ex): You ignore 5% arcane spell failure for every point of your wisdom modifier.

Caster's AIM (Su): You add your Wisdom modifier as a competence bonus to ranged attack rolls of spells. Special: This does not require any action, as supernatural abilities usually do, but it is still affected by an anti-magic field.

Caster's Strike (Su): You add your Wisdom modifier as a competence bonus to melee attack rolls of spells. Special: This does not require any action, as supernatural abilities usually do, but it is still affected by an anti-magic field.

Metamagic Mastery (Ex): A number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier, you can apply metamagic feats that you know to your mage spells with out increasing the casting time.

Familiar: You gain a familiar as per the rules in the players handbook.

Mana shielding (Su): A number of times per day equal to 1/2 your mage level + your wisdom bonus, you may expend a spell as a Immediate Action and gain a bonus equal to that spells level to your saving throws. This bonus lasts a number of rounds equal to 1+ your Cha modifier.

Sorcerer
Magic is a natural part of you and spells you know will respond to your call even if you did not prepare them.
Prerequisites: First level, Cha 15.
Benefit: A number of times per-day equal to 1/3 your mage levels+ your Charisma modifier you may cast a spell you did not prepare that day. Any spell cast using this method acts as if it had a metamagic feat applied to it and takes up a spell slot one level higher than normal.
In addition because of your natural master of spells your Charisma score acts as if it were 2 higher when determining how many bonus spells you receive per-day.

Wizard:
As a wizard you have likely studded magic at a formal school of magic. After years of studying from books to learn your trade, you no longer need to read tome of magic to cast your spells, however if you do carry specially made books of magic spells called Spellbooks you may use them as a focus to boost the power of your spells.
Prerequisites: First level, Int 15.
Benefit: While holding a specially made spell book open to the page on which the corresponding spell is written on you may ignore the material component as long as it costs 10 GP or less.
Also a number of times per day equal to your 1/3rd your mage levels+ your Int modifier you may study a spell from your spell book and swap it with an already memorized spell. This process takes a number of minutes equal to the level of the spells being traded. Once a spell has been traded for the same spell can not be traded for again in the same day.
Changing pages in a spell book is a free action as long as the mage has two free hands or a move action if she only has one free hand.


Spellbook:
There are two kinds of spell books Grimoire or large tomes and what are commonly known as charm books. Both books provided spells and will allow a user of the book to exchange spells, however Grimorie are wieldy and can not be held in one hand like charm books. Grimorie often have a focus as well on a give subject such as a given school of magic, undead and spells to deal with them or some other such focus and are often used to teach young wizards or published collections of spells of famous wizards. Charm Books most often are made for individual use and because of there small size can be used as a focus for spells. Both Grimoire and Charm Books have 100 pages, a spell takes up one page per spell level in a Grimorie and 2 pages per spell level in a Charm Book.
It costs 100 GP per spell level to scribe a spell any to any spell book.

Special Inks:
There are a number of special inks that Wizards some times use in spell books these inks are normally used up upon casting of the spell removing the spell from the book, the most common of these inks are known as Boost Ink described below.

Boost Ink: Using Boost Ink a caster slightly increases the power of a spell as if he had cast it at +1 caster level. Boost Ink costs the same as normal spell book ink but once the spell book is used as a focus the ink is consumed and the spell vanishes from the page.

[spoiler]OK here is my idea for spell prepared each day.

-------------------------------------------------------

So it could use a few more Mage’s Learning abilities, notably I would like a Sorcerer and Witch specialization. Acolyte may be to powerful and it may need to be divided into a two ability chain.

[JackMage666]

Broken like a Natural-Spell Druid.

It has More HP/level than either a Wizard or a Sorcerer, making it more hearty. Why you did this, I don't know.

It gets bonus feats like a Wizard, as well as abilities that focus on their srengths (as if spells didn't already do this - Int to AC when Int is a Casting stat? Yes please! What's more Competence bonuses to AC are so rare, that they'll stack with almost anything!)

You know the number of spells as a Wizard, and at each level you "prepare" 1+Int modifier (at top levels this means normally over 6, far more than a Sorcerer of Equal Level has). From there, you spontaneously cast. However, you can batman out like a wizard considerably easier, and learn basically every spell.

Not to mention, instead of the net 2 spells per level, you gain 1+Int spells per level so you'll be making your repetoire HUGE every level.

While I appreciate the MAD, it doesn't really help the balance issue.

His Bonus Spells are based on both Int and Cha combines, so massive amounts of bonus spells even for low level casters. So, the base of Wizard's spells per day is easily overcome by the huge amount of bonus spells.

Sorry, broken. Rule of thumb, if you increase either the Wizard or Sorcerer eve slightly, they become horridly broken. Combining them so you have the best of both world makes a horrendously scary caster bent on destroying every game.

[StickMan]

1. It has More HP/level than either a Wizard or a Sorcerer, making it more hearty. Why you did this, I don't know.

1. It gets bonus feats like a Wizard, as well as abilities that focus on their srengths (as if spells didn't already do this - Int to AC when Int is a Casting stat? Yes please! What's more Competence bonuses to AC are so rare, that they'll stack with almost anything!)

2. You know the number of spells as a Wizard, and at each level you "prepare" 1+Int modifier (at top levels this means normally over 6, far more than a Sorcerer of Equal Level has). From there, you spontaneously cast. However, you can batman out like a wizard considerably easier, and learn basically every spell.

3. Not to mention, instead of the net 2 spells per level, you gain 1+Int spells per level so you'll be making your repetoire HUGE every level.

4. While I appreciate the MAD, it doesn't really help the balance issue.

5. His Bonus Spells are based on both Int and Cha combines, so massive amounts of bonus spells even for low level casters. So, the base of Wizard's spells per day is easily overcome by the huge amount of bonus spells.

Numbers are added just to make things easier for me.

1. This class unlike standard wis/sor can not pump Con and Dex because of D.A.D. While the higher hitdice giving 1 extra HP on average per level, it does not make up for lack of boost to fortitude save or Concentration skill. The same goes to int to defense as you lose the bonus to not only defense, but to Reflex saves, Initiative, ranged attacks and a good number of skills.

2. Well you have a point in the first part you can prep a lot of spells and you can learn every spell if you want if your willing to pay the XP cost. And you can prepare as many spells of your highest level (small I know).

3. You gain 1+1/2 int spells each level after first, so its not so huge unless you pump Int and even then seems like you should get some reward.

4. It helps quite a bit if you actually think about it and are not playing with total power gamers. If your playing with people focused on "beating the game" then yea anything is abusable.

5. Well that was the point so yea lots of bonus spells however it never really catches up to Sorcerers spells per day unless your doing something insane I'm missing.


The things you have brought up may be good points. The way in which you brought them up however makes me not really value your input. Next time instead of only criticizing something someone has put time into making, try offering suggestions and advice. People post on this board looking for help with there work, however many are scared to post because of people taking something and trashing it right out of the gate.

I accept that the class may be over powered, it likely is, if you would like to highlight why you think so in a constructive and useful way please do.


Thank you,
Stickman.

[Umarth]

The things you have brought up may be good points. The way in which you brought them up however makes me not really value your input. Next time instead of only criticizing something someone has put time into making, try offering suggestions and advice. People post on this board looking for help with there work, however many are scared to post because of people taking something and trashing it right out of the gate.

I accept that the class may be over powered, it likely is, if you would like to highlight why you think so in a constructive and useful way please do.


Nothing JackMage666 said was rude or impolite. He brought up a number of very good points which you didn't really address other than to say I don't play with people who are power gamers and then called him rude and lectured him.

If you are interested in feedback you should be more open to critique and criticism rather than just assuming people are attacking you because they don't agree with how wonderful your creation is.

As for my view on your class I'll just quote JackMage666

Sorry, broken. Rule of thumb, if you increase either the Wizard or Sorcerer eve slightly, they become horridly broken. Combining them so you have the best of both world makes a horrendously scary caster bent on destroying every game.

[StickMan]

Nothing JackMage666 said was rude or impolite. He brought up a number of very good points which you didn't really address other than to say I don't play with people who are power gamers and then called him rude and lectured him.

If you are interested in feedback you should be more open to critique and criticism rather than just assuming people are attacking you because they don't agree with how wonderful your creation is.


I never said that JackMage666 was rude or impolite, I actually don't think he was or that it was his goal. I do how ever think what he said was overly abrasive and what he said could have been stated in a better more positive, productive way.

Secondly as said above I really don't mind be critiqued at all, there is a very good and likely chance that the class is over powered and hopefully with the help of people on this board I can tone it down. The feats may need to go, I may need to up the XP cost to learn spells, rework the special abilities, I may even drop the d6 down to a d4.

Also while I respect your opinion of my class once more it does not help me to fix any of its problems to simply post that you do not like it.

[arkanis]

HIT DICE
I would say for a pure arcane spellcaster you may want to stick to a d4 Hit Dice unless you trade out some of that arcane power (less spells? weaker spells? more restricted list? etc.).

GENERAL
You could always remove the bonus feats and reduce hit dice to d4 and mages would effectively be the same power as a normal wizard but with Mage special abilities instead of Wizard bonus feats.

SPELLCASTING
This is tricky, I may recommend a different route for a Mage's spellcasting:
-Spells per day as a Wizard
-Spells-known list (as a Sorcerer) prepared each day
-Real Spells known as a Wizard
-The character casts abjuration, enchantment, illusion, and necromancy spells with Cha and casts conjuration, divination, transmutation, and universal spells with Int.
This does indeed enhance your spellcasting abilities with spontaneity, but in exchange your spell power is split between two ability scores for a nice tradeoff.

MAGE'S LEARNING
I do notice that some of the abilities are indeed "broken" but they could probably be fixed with a simple tweak. I'd try finding similar abilities which already exist and using those as examples. Your Caster's Strike ability is close to an already an existing feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds, only it is called Intuitive Strike which allows a character to use their Wisdom modifier instead of Strength modifier to attack rolls.

RECOMMENDATION
However, as it is I'd say this class seems more suited for a prestige class. It certainly has a lot of abilities in addition to what a normal Sorcerer or Wizard would get and most prestige classes are slightly more poweful than base classes, but that's why they're prestigious and have strict requirements to attain. Heck, making a Mystic Theurge which is a mix of spontaneous arcane/prepared arcane instead of arcane/divine would probably be an excellent idea as well.

[ocato]

First of all, I love this idea. I really, really do. However, you stepped overboard on a few small points.

First and foremost, I would probably use Sorcerer progression for spell casting instead of Wizard. By giving Sorcerer progression, you avoiding the problem of it being a crazy powerful wizard. Instead, it's a more powerful sorcerer. And let's face it, no one gets too terribly uppity about Sorcerer improvement.

I like the mix of INT and CHA as necessary stats. It makes you have to choose in low point buy between quantity of spells and potency of spells. I think that its a nice balancer. However, the bonus spells equation seems mildly strong to me. If you have an INT of 16 and a CHA of 14, you get bonus spells as if you had a statistic of 10+(16-10=6)+(14-10=4)= 20! That's a little jump, though it isn't so bad as to need direct attention. Honestly, on second thought, leave it.

Now, this could use some attention:


Acolyte:
You have a connection to a grand idea or philosophy because of this connection you have gained powers other Mages do not hold.
Prerequisites: First level, Wis 15.
Benefit: Select two cleric domain you gain the domains granted powers as well you may select spells from the domain spell lists to become spells known for you. Any spell you learn threw this method is still cast as an arcane spell. You must be holding an appropriate divine to use any domain power or spell granted by this ability

I'm sorry, but this is just a really bad idea. A Sorcerer who can get spells like a wizard and cast from two cleric domains? That's a bit obscene.

[StickMan]

arkanis: I think I'm likely going to be dropping the hit dice down to d4s next update and get rid of the feats.

I'm ponding your suggestions regarding spell casting, turning them over in my head to see what to do with them. What ability would you give Evocation to its missing from the list?

Also there is a mixed PRC from Complete Mage, its not desirable.

ocato: Your right Acolyte needs a good smack in the head, there is at least one or two feats that give one domain. Perhaps I should cut it down to only one domain or remove the domains granted power? It should be noted Acolyte is a bit of a hold over as the first time I tried to do something like this people also wanted to use a similar system for divine casters and that was a bit of a bridge idea.
Also could you explain your idea for Sorcerer spell progression I'm a little confused as to what you mean.

The odd extra spell per day system is put into place as the I gave the class the lowest base spells but wanted it to have more than that so I figured bonus spells could give a few more spells per day with out over shooting the number Sorcerers get.

I think I may remove Battle Knowledge and replace it with this:
Battle Intuition (Ex): You add your Wisdom modifier to AC as a competence bonus.

Thanks,
Stickman.

[arkanis]

Ah, Evocation. Yes, I knew I forgot one. I'd put that under Int since most Universal spells are few and far between and relatively unhelpful in battle.

You could also instead just have one ability score used for DCs and another for bonus spells per day and still another for the special abilities. By spreading out the effective ability scores, you've slightly diluted the class's potency allowing your spontaneous/prepared compromise to be less overpowering.

Perhaps you could use the mixed PrC in the Complete Mage as an example and alter it to be more suiting towards your mage concept here?

[ocato]

I'd be happy to explain. Your chart uses the wizard progression for spells known, giving the Mage the quicker of the two progressions for spells known concerning the introduction of new spell levels. I was suggesting using the Sorcerer one instead, as it means somewhat slower advancement, which may serve as a relatively strong bargaining chip when trying to balance this class. The turn, of course, is that you will have much more spells per day, allowing you to reconsider your bonus spells system. By granting the character bonus spells of their higher attribute (INT or CHA) and Sorcerer spells per day, that ought to be fairly evened out.

As for bridging the Divine casters in, I would suggest a completely different class for that. While a class that has access to almost every spell is an admirable pursuit, the logistics and balance issues are a mire you probably would do well to avoid, given the inherent resistance people already have to increasing the power of primary spell casters.

To be perfectly honest, I think dividing the schools of magic between charisma and intellect is a bit excessive. I can see how you would want Illusion and Enchantment and so on to be more affiliated with Charisma, and it makes sense on a level, but the book keeping for the class might get out of hand. I prefer the original concept, where Intelligence measures the amount of spells and the acquisition of new spells (referring to spells being obtained through 'research') and Charisma governing their Save DCs (inferring that the potency of magic being based on natural talent). This creates a dual nature to spells. One must have both the natural talent to wield the forces of magic and the intelligence to properly seek out an understanding of their fundamental uses.

As for your special abilities, I think that a sacrificial system ala the Archmage may be ideal. Instead of taking a class only 'feat' to add INT (or WIS, CHA, or any other stat, for that matter), grant the ability to sacrifice a spell slot to give a bonus to armor class, or a touch attack, ranged touch attack, boost the DC of a spell, or boost a saving throw equal to the spell level of the slot sacrificed. This will allow an additional use for the extensive spells per day the Sorcerer Progression offers, and helps avoid excessively strong abilities that are always active such as armor class or saving throw boosts. The more you try to stretch the class to cover every weakness, the more people are going to resist it as 'overpowered'.

Again, I really like this idea, and I hope it can be hammered out into its full potential. Good work thus far, Stickman.

[merrja666]

First of all, destroy the d6 HD. Due to the brokenness of this class, it should be either d2 or a d3. Int bonus + Cha bonus bonus spells? How about 1/2 Int bonus + Cha bonus? and so. therefore, you need an Int and a Cha score equal to or greater than a spell's level in order to be able to cast it. Gain access to higher spell levels like a Sorceror, and get only the Wizard amount of spells. Make all bonuses 1/2 Int bonus + Cha bonus, not Int bonus + Cha bonus. No domain access. Only get Mage's learning half as much, and not at level 1, either. Get a familiar instead. Bonus feats half as much also. Scrap Armour Understanding and Battle Knowledge. Metamagic Mastery will break the game - Quickening spells 3 + Cha bonus times per day is just not right. No Mana Shielding, either.

[StickMan]

First of all, destroy the d6 HD. Due to the brokenness of this class, it should be either d2 or a d3. Int bonus + Cha bonus bonus spells? How about 1/2 Int bonus + Cha bonus? and so. therefore, you need an Int and a Cha score equal to or greater than a spell's level in order to be able to cast it. Gain access to higher spell levels like a Sorceror, and get only the Wizard amount of spells. Make all bonuses 1/2 Int bonus + Cha bonus, not Int bonus + Cha bonus. No domain access. Only get Mage's learning half as much, and not at level 1, either. Get a familiar instead. Bonus feats half as much also. Scrap Armour Understanding and Battle Knowledge. Metamagic Mastery will break the game - Quickening spells 3 + Cha bonus times per day is just not right. No Mana Shielding, either.

OK well I'll try to reply to this as best I can but the lack of structure in that post makes it hard to follow.

As said above Hit-dice is being dropped down to d4 and I plan to remove the bonus feats.
The class all ready calls having both Int and Cha of the spells level.
I see no reason to scrap Armor Understanding and Battle Knowledge, and you've given me none.
Metamagic Mastery is based off an ability from players handbook two I only swapped out Int for Cha. Also it does not quicken spells it allows spells that have meta-magic feats applied to them not to be cast as a full round action as the class casts spontaneously.
I see no issue with Mana Shielding, if you have a good reason that you don't like it please state it.

ocato and arkanis thank you for your continued feedback I'll likely update the class after I get off work.

Chow for now,
Stickman.

[Neftren]

This still seems too much like a wizard for me. Perhaps if you added some sort of ability that lets you cast a spell that you have not memorized for the day (just like the sorcerer) but at a lower CL or something.

Lets say you're a 10th level Mage. You haven't memorized Fireball, but you are allowed to cast it at 9d6 instead of 10d6 taking a CL 1 hit for not having memorized it... maybe up the hit to 3 or even 4.

[Fuza]

I'm sorry, but this is just a really bad idea. A Sorcerer who can get spells like a wizard and cast from two cleric domains? That's a bit obscene.

Domain Wizards...kinda. They get domains but they are not cleric domains.

[ForzaFiori]

i would suggest getting spells known/spells prepared based on intelligence (b/c it takes brains to know more spells, and to store them in your mind) but spell DC's and such based on Charisma (b/c your putting more of yourself into your spells, making them stronger. not sure if that came out right though...it makes sense to me) and maybe do bonus spells by taking 1/2 Int +1/2 Cha and looking on the chart in the PHB? definitely drop the HD to d4, get rid of the bonus spells. I like Neftren's idea about casting unprepared spells at a lower CL, maybe put that as a Mage's Trick? give it a prereq. of CL 5 or so, and let you cast unprepared spells at CL-4 or something.

just my 2CP. I like the idea of this class, but i gotta agree that it is horribly overpowered.

[GoC]

This still seems too much like a wizard for me. Perhaps if you added some sort of ability that lets you cast a spell that you have not memorized for the day (just like the sorcerer) but at a lower CL or something.

Lets say you're a 10th level Mage. You haven't memorized Fireball, but you are allowed to cast it at 9d6 instead of 10d6 taking a CL 1 hit for not having memorized it... maybe up the hit to 3 or even 4.

Or 75% CL.

[StickMan]

OK took down the hit dice, removed the Bonus feats, cut Acolyte, and changed Battle Knowledge to wisdom based battle intuition.

Neftren: Great idea that will make a great Sorcerer Mage's Learning, I'll work it up some time soon when I have a bit more time. I have late family Christmas stuff this weekend and don't have tons of time till Monday.

I'm still pondering what I want to do exactly about spell casting. I'm thinking of changing the bonus spells per-day to 10+(Charisma score-10)+ 1/2(Intelligence score-10). Complex I know. Or may be I just take the bullet and up the base spells per day and leave as just extra spells based on Charisma.

Things on my agenda for this class: Better name for "Mage's Learning" class feature, it just sounds weird. Whole new Acolyte special, as I like the option to have arcane spell casters as cult members or generic followers of a god. Witch specialization, I just would like to have one. Bang out details of Sorcerer specialization. tweak spell casting.

Thanks once more to all who have replied as this class is starting to shape up in my opinion,
Stickman.

[EvilElitest]

If i could use this in my games, i would. But even after i've nerfed wizards and bumped up the powers of monk fighter ect, this would just own everything

I might use this as an advanced class (a more powerful class that costs twice the normal amount of exp to level up) as i like the flavor or as something to make a super NPC villian but i can't use it as a normal PC, sorry even though i like the class
from,
EE

[arkanis]

i would suggest getting spells known/spells prepared based on intelligence (b/c it takes brains to know more spells, and to store them in your mind) but spell DC's and such based on Charisma (b/c your putting more of yourself into your spells, making them stronger. not sure if that came out right though...it makes sense to me) and maybe do bonus spells by taking 1/2 Int +1/2 Cha and looking on the chart in the PHB?

I may suggest you looking up the Favored Soul class from the Complete Divine. It divides spellcasting between Wisdom and Charisma and maybe you could use that as an example. If you don't have that book I'm sure someone else could fill you in on it (I personally don't have it but I've seen it enough times to know this).

Words to Use for Renaming Mage's Learning: Mage, Knowledge, Lore, Occult, Study, Mastery, Eldritch, Magic, Special, Trick, Trickery, Gambit, Specialty, etc. I vote for Eldritch Lore for a cool name, although I would think it applies to more of a knowledge ability than your special abilities. Maybe Eldritch Trick or Specialty? I know Loremaster just calls their specials "Secrets" as in special abilities only they can learn.

[StickMan]

OK here is my idea for spell prepared each day.

{table=head]Spell Level|Spells prepared per day
Highest|1+(Intelligence Modifier-3)
Second Highest| 1+(Intelligence Modifier-2)
Third Highest| 1+(Intelligence Modifier-1)
Fourth Highest| 1+Intelligence Modifier
Fifth Highest| 1+Intelligence Modifier
Sixth Highest| 2+Intelligence Modifier
Seventh Highest| 2+Intelligence Modifier
Eight Highest| 2+Intelligence Modifier
Ninth Highest| 3+Intelligence Modifier[/table]

Of course each is minimum one prepared spell per day.

I may make the extra spells per day equal to an effective ability score equal to Charisma score+1/2(Intelligence Score-8) ends up with fewer spells but still going to get a good number.

How about Eldritch Secrets as a sub for Mage's Learnings?

Sorcerer
Magic is a natural part of you and spells you know will respond to your call even if you did not prepare them.
Prerequisites: First level, Cha 15.
Benefit: A number of times per-day equal to 1/3 your mage levels+ your Charisma modifier you may cast a spell you did not prepare that day. Any spell cast using this method acts as if it had a metamagic feat applied to it and takes up a spell slot one level higher than normal.
In addition because of your natural master of spells your Charisma score acts as if it were 2 higher when determining how many bonus spells you receive per-day.

Rough version of Sorcerer please critique. Some how just reducing the spell level seemed to powerful.

I've also been thinking I should increase the XP cost to learn extra spells to 50 x spells level x the spells minimum caster level.

Thanks,
Stickman.

[Hyrael]

This Idea is...Wonderfull. Hells, I myself had an Idea a while ago for a Wiz/sorc hybrid with a mental spellbook and spontaneous casting. But to see it executed like this...

You just need to gimp the numbers a little bit, and set limits on the mental spellbook's contents. and make it harder to learn new spells beyond normal leveling progression.

I would make the most of the divided casting stats. I've always loved that idea for caster design, as it allows lots of cool abilities that dont make the class unbalanced. personally, I would just base max spells and bonus spells off of intelligence, and Save DCs off charisma.

If possible, you could use a sort of domain system that forces some kind of thematic specialization, ala Magic, the Gathering. So a red mage could have fire, electricity, and some cold spells, rage, haste, earthquake, shatter, and so forth as spells known, while a blue mage gets dominate person, fly, dispel magic, and spell resistanace. This limits spells known to specific groups and lists.

Great idea, just needs tweaking to maintain the ballance

[StickMan]

This Idea is...Wonderfull. Hells, I myself had an Idea a while ago for a Wiz/sorc hybrid with a mental spellbook and spontaneous casting. But to see it executed like this...
Yea he seems to like the idea!


You just need to gimp the numbers a little bit, and set limits on the mental spellbook's contents. and make it harder to learn new spells beyond normal leveling progression.
You mean like a max number of spells known? As of right now there is none but gaining extra spells costs quite a bit of XP. A limit how ever my be a good idea. I'm open to the idea and any discussion of it will be taken into account as I work on the class, but I'm not sure if I'll jump on it quite yet.


I would make the most of the divided casting stats. I've always loved that idea for caster design, as it allows lots of cool abilities that dont make the class unbalanced. personally, I would just base max spells and bonus spells off of intelligence, and Save DCs off charisma.
I understand the idea as the use of Intelligence does feel a little lack luster, however the way the class uses both abilities right now makes the most logical scene to me.

If possible, you could use a sort of domain system that forces some kind of thematic specialization, ala Magic, the Gathering. So a red mage could have fire, electricity, and some cold spells, rage, haste, earthquake, shatter, and so forth as spells known, while a blue mage gets dominate person, fly, dispel magic, and spell resistanace. This limits spells known to specific groups and lists.
I don't much care for that idea for the base class, but perhaps as one of the Eldritch Secrets.

Great idea, just needs tweaking to maintain the ballance
Total agreement.


OK as said above I feel like intelligence use is lack luster. Sure its Important to know lots of spells and to hold them but I feel like Intelligence could use a bit of a bang, perhaps a Eldritch Secret thats cool.

Also as you may be able to tell I've deiced to go with Eldritch Secrets as the new ability name.

Lastly make sure to read my two last posts if your just skimming as they contain what I currently feel the class needs done as well as some rule ideas that need looked over.

Thanks Amigos,
Stickman.

[Kigganaku]

Call me outdated but isn't a mage a non-specialized wizard? A name change would be approprite I think. (Of course, i'm pretty sure i'm out dated. Just throwing it out there...)

[StickMan]

Call me outdated but isn't a mage a non-specialized wizard? A name change would be approprite I think. (Of course, i'm pretty sure i'm out dated. Just throwing it out there...)

There is no class called Mage is all of 3.x as far as I know. Not sure about earlier editions however. Also the reason why I picked the name was for its generic nature that fits all caster types.

[arkanis]

Big thumbs up on the fix-ups. Looks great.

[StickMan]

OK Updated, really just officially made all of the changes I had been talking about.

Still taking suggestions however please keep the feedback coming.


Thanks,
Stickman.

[StickMan]

OK now that I've had some time off from this I'm coming back for more.

I'm thinking for the Witch Secrets it should be a specialization based on curses and natural magic. Perhaps giving a +X to caster level to Curse, Nature and other related spell groups and a -X caster level to flasher spells groups.

As for the Acolyte I'm still thinking it might be an ok idea to grant spells from a single domain or domain power. There is a feat that gives spells from a single domain so its been done before.

I still feel like Intelligence does not get to do much if some one would like to address this concern or just tell me I'm silly please do.