Epinephrine
2007-12-31, 02:30 PM
Hi all,
I haven't played D&D in ages (first edition really, played a lot of other systems, GURPS mostly) and have been invited to play in a friend's 3.5 ed. campaign. He's running a "gestalt" campaign, and told me to think of something I wanted to try, so I did - and druid/scout fell out of it. It has skirmishing power in beast form, solid casting later, and is well suited to the wild. I think it's a nice combo, and really fits with what I wanted to do.
He is using the PHII shapeshift druid, and is a very sensible guy, looking for balanced play and all that, and I have a few questions - not on how to min-max, as I hate doing that (for example, despite having a ranger in the party I am opting to spend a feat on track, since I simply can't imagine not having it as a scout/druid), but on how to limit things/what should be possible, and was hoping for advice. We sat down and fleshed stuff out for a while, and modified a few rules as well.
Neither the DM nor myself has any experience with the shapeshift druid variant - we both recognise that it's a much more limited version of the wildshape druid, and much less abusive, but I wanted outside opinion as to what we should include.
Ok - here are some questions:
1) The DM worries that since so much of D&D is gear based that the shapeshifter is at a substantial disadvantage, and has suggested wildling clasps as a way to use some effects in shapesifted form, since the wild shape druids get things like this. Is this too much? Neither of us want my character to be "broken", but also want me to be able to keep up with the others. He mentioned possibly alowing wild armour or something, but given the large bonuses with later forms I'm not sure that's a good idea.
2) I was disappointed that the forms offered no real utility-type effects. He has offered the following: any advantage that could be gained by clothes or standard gear that could reasonably be incorporated into a true animal form can be gained via shapeshift. This includes: climb+2 circumstance bonus ( like the standard climbing claws), survival bonuses (as per cold weather clothing, tent, bedding - by use of fur or feathers), hide bonuses (based on coat pattern, as one could do with a disguise kit or similar ability) and such. Is this overpowered, or a reasonable way to add some flavour and benefit to the shifter druid that a wildshape druid could easily do?
3) A few forms he modified pretty directly.
- The 1st level predator form gains scent at 4th level rather than mobility.
- The Aerial form is now small size, with no strength bonus, and +2 Dex instead, to put it at the size/strength of a normal eagle (hawk/falcon sized for a small druid). It gains +20 feet of flight at 12th level and +20 more at 18th. This was to make it less combat oriented and more real (name a single real flying animal of size medium).
- The Slayer form gains a pounce attack at 12th level, rather than the improved criticals it would have gotten at 10th.
- The Forest Avenger form gains double damage against objects at 14th level, and damage resistance 10/slashing with vulnerability to fire at 16th level, doesn't gain the original improved overrun.
-The elemental form is non-typed at 16th level (just a big brute form resembling earth), and at 18th level gains the ability of taking on one of air, earth, fire or water - gaining flight 80ft (as the aerial form now provides), earth glide (soil/unworked stone only), burning (2d8, DC22, 1d4 rounds) and swim speeds respectively. No immunities are gained by these forms except vs fire for the fire form (originally they had electicity, acid, fire and cold immunities in the PHII). He felt it was ludicrous to have an air elemental form that couldn't fly and a water elemental form that couldn't swim. The elemental form does not get the Great Cleave ability at 18th.
In addition, at 6th level a utility form is gained - it allows taking animal forms of small/medium size that aren't a predator or slayer - essentially allowing goats, deer, badgers or other similar forms that don't fall into a predator or slayer type. These forms only have a single size-based attack, and offer no attribute advantages, but can be rather inconspicuous, gaining potential abilities with level. I forget exactly the progression, but it allows for a climbing form (has a climb speed of 30), a digging form (dig speed of 10), and an aquatic form (swim speed of 30, hold breath 6*con) by the time 12th level is hit. At 12th the utility form expands to include tiny and large animals, but again restricted to air breathing, non-flying animals - so one can assume the form of a horse or a housecat or a walrus, for example. The large form gets a +8 Strength (just as the large size Slayer already had 4 levels back) while the tiny form has (str/2)-2 and a +4 dex, with a flat +2 natural armour across all forms.
So, are these reasonable adaptations to try to add some flexibility to the druid shifter variant, and will allowing wildling clasps be too much power for a shifter druid? The idea of utility forms was a way to try to make up for the huge flexibility a wild shape druid can have in abilities. We aren't planning anything silly, like dressing an ape-shifted druid in armour, or changing to a sheep, shearing the wool off to sell and shifting back to a remarkably unchanged person or other idiocies.
I don't really know the mechanics or power level that is associated with the newer D&D versions, but the goal is essentially to stay at a similar power level to the party while providing the flexibility needed. We have no rogue (I was originally looking at druid/rogue, but saw the scout and thought it was a better personality/image fit) so I am the scout/rogue type for the party, which hopefully the shapeshifting will help with.
Obviously a gestalt campaign tends to be a bit higher powered, and the other players are likely to pick pretty synergistic builds. Hopefully the skirmish bonuses on the wild form will be enough to keep it a legitimate option for combat as I level, while I'll have the option of playing more of a casting role as well as time wears on.
Thanks for any help,
Epi
I haven't played D&D in ages (first edition really, played a lot of other systems, GURPS mostly) and have been invited to play in a friend's 3.5 ed. campaign. He's running a "gestalt" campaign, and told me to think of something I wanted to try, so I did - and druid/scout fell out of it. It has skirmishing power in beast form, solid casting later, and is well suited to the wild. I think it's a nice combo, and really fits with what I wanted to do.
He is using the PHII shapeshift druid, and is a very sensible guy, looking for balanced play and all that, and I have a few questions - not on how to min-max, as I hate doing that (for example, despite having a ranger in the party I am opting to spend a feat on track, since I simply can't imagine not having it as a scout/druid), but on how to limit things/what should be possible, and was hoping for advice. We sat down and fleshed stuff out for a while, and modified a few rules as well.
Neither the DM nor myself has any experience with the shapeshift druid variant - we both recognise that it's a much more limited version of the wildshape druid, and much less abusive, but I wanted outside opinion as to what we should include.
Ok - here are some questions:
1) The DM worries that since so much of D&D is gear based that the shapeshifter is at a substantial disadvantage, and has suggested wildling clasps as a way to use some effects in shapesifted form, since the wild shape druids get things like this. Is this too much? Neither of us want my character to be "broken", but also want me to be able to keep up with the others. He mentioned possibly alowing wild armour or something, but given the large bonuses with later forms I'm not sure that's a good idea.
2) I was disappointed that the forms offered no real utility-type effects. He has offered the following: any advantage that could be gained by clothes or standard gear that could reasonably be incorporated into a true animal form can be gained via shapeshift. This includes: climb+2 circumstance bonus ( like the standard climbing claws), survival bonuses (as per cold weather clothing, tent, bedding - by use of fur or feathers), hide bonuses (based on coat pattern, as one could do with a disguise kit or similar ability) and such. Is this overpowered, or a reasonable way to add some flavour and benefit to the shifter druid that a wildshape druid could easily do?
3) A few forms he modified pretty directly.
- The 1st level predator form gains scent at 4th level rather than mobility.
- The Aerial form is now small size, with no strength bonus, and +2 Dex instead, to put it at the size/strength of a normal eagle (hawk/falcon sized for a small druid). It gains +20 feet of flight at 12th level and +20 more at 18th. This was to make it less combat oriented and more real (name a single real flying animal of size medium).
- The Slayer form gains a pounce attack at 12th level, rather than the improved criticals it would have gotten at 10th.
- The Forest Avenger form gains double damage against objects at 14th level, and damage resistance 10/slashing with vulnerability to fire at 16th level, doesn't gain the original improved overrun.
-The elemental form is non-typed at 16th level (just a big brute form resembling earth), and at 18th level gains the ability of taking on one of air, earth, fire or water - gaining flight 80ft (as the aerial form now provides), earth glide (soil/unworked stone only), burning (2d8, DC22, 1d4 rounds) and swim speeds respectively. No immunities are gained by these forms except vs fire for the fire form (originally they had electicity, acid, fire and cold immunities in the PHII). He felt it was ludicrous to have an air elemental form that couldn't fly and a water elemental form that couldn't swim. The elemental form does not get the Great Cleave ability at 18th.
In addition, at 6th level a utility form is gained - it allows taking animal forms of small/medium size that aren't a predator or slayer - essentially allowing goats, deer, badgers or other similar forms that don't fall into a predator or slayer type. These forms only have a single size-based attack, and offer no attribute advantages, but can be rather inconspicuous, gaining potential abilities with level. I forget exactly the progression, but it allows for a climbing form (has a climb speed of 30), a digging form (dig speed of 10), and an aquatic form (swim speed of 30, hold breath 6*con) by the time 12th level is hit. At 12th the utility form expands to include tiny and large animals, but again restricted to air breathing, non-flying animals - so one can assume the form of a horse or a housecat or a walrus, for example. The large form gets a +8 Strength (just as the large size Slayer already had 4 levels back) while the tiny form has (str/2)-2 and a +4 dex, with a flat +2 natural armour across all forms.
So, are these reasonable adaptations to try to add some flexibility to the druid shifter variant, and will allowing wildling clasps be too much power for a shifter druid? The idea of utility forms was a way to try to make up for the huge flexibility a wild shape druid can have in abilities. We aren't planning anything silly, like dressing an ape-shifted druid in armour, or changing to a sheep, shearing the wool off to sell and shifting back to a remarkably unchanged person or other idiocies.
I don't really know the mechanics or power level that is associated with the newer D&D versions, but the goal is essentially to stay at a similar power level to the party while providing the flexibility needed. We have no rogue (I was originally looking at druid/rogue, but saw the scout and thought it was a better personality/image fit) so I am the scout/rogue type for the party, which hopefully the shapeshifting will help with.
Obviously a gestalt campaign tends to be a bit higher powered, and the other players are likely to pick pretty synergistic builds. Hopefully the skirmish bonuses on the wild form will be enough to keep it a legitimate option for combat as I level, while I'll have the option of playing more of a casting role as well as time wears on.
Thanks for any help,
Epi