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haggis theif
2008-01-04, 08:19 PM
so i rolled up this character whos a haflinf fighter who by level 20 i would have him at 16fighter/4theif. i used the role 4 and subtract the lowest method for rolling his stats, with racial ajustmnts are:
str 14
dex 19
con 16
int 15
wis 14
cha 15

...normal stats for that method of rolling(for me anyway). so i was gonna create this guy using darts, yes darts, their 1/2 lighter that daggers, 1/4 the price, and have double the range. how i planed this character was he was going to get alot of the ranging feats and be an pber cool character to use, but my friend hates the idea of it, infact he said a dm wouldnt even allow a character in to the game.he even whent on to say,"think about it, a halfling throwing darts at a dragon, he wouldnt hit is head an would have the be very close, just make a character with a bow"
well, my friend is right right there, but we all know a uber bow guy is lame and is a legolas knock off. with the right feats**(and a clock of invisibility**) this guy would be doing massive damage!
all he would need is a set of moonsilver shards(topleft on page 114 of arms and equipment guide) and with the far shot feat he would have a range of 300ft for darts. now in later levels with all the feats and stuff he would be a kick ass character but my friend hates the awsomeness of my ideas***, what would you think of a character like this? yay or nay?.

*all the ranged fears work with trowing wepons, and with his classes and stuff he would be unhittable.
** with a cloak of invisibility you could be standing there next to a dragon doing so little dammage with a dart it wouldnt notice, thus killing it slowly(and stupidly).
***he would rather me make a halfling, buy human breastplate and prostedic extension limbs, get put in the breast plate, fill all the embty space with explosives, and walk up to a dragon with a sign saying 'burn me'(instant suicide bombing frag grenade)

Necromimesis
2008-01-04, 08:40 PM
First things first: that was a difficult post to read. Try to clean up your syntax, punctuation and formatting a little if you want responses.

Now, to the critique. Your build (which I’m assuming is Fighter 16/Rogue 4, since I know of no “thief” class) leaves much to be desired. Assuming you max your strength completely from here on, you’re still only looking at 1d4+10 damage per attack (only 1d4+1 if you use Moonsilver Shards, although you’ll never miss). Considering the damage you could be getting, it’s pretty pathetic.

If you’re set on a dart thrower (even though NOT all archers are Legolas rip-offs…you can make a very different character even if you have an Elf uber-archer…), look at the Master Thrower PrC, as well as things like the Bloodstorm Blade from ToB (although I’m not sure about the effectiveness of the latter to this build). Also consider taking more Rogue levels for sneak attack, as extra damage would be beneficial to this build more than extra feats. Generally anything over Fighter 2 or 4 is rather pointless…branch out and get some better abilities.

Also, you won’t be unhittable. Thrown weapon fighters are usually mobile, meaning you’ll be wearing, at best, a +5 mithril Breastplate. Don’t expect to emerge unscathed from combat…it’s not going to happen. Just a heads up.

All in all, an interesting idea, but extremely weak unless optimized completely, which I’m just not up to doing now. It could probably be done, but I doubt you’d ever really excel.

Concept wise, I’d say go for it if you’re willing to pay the price in combat potential to have your character concept. If you’re not willing to pay that price, switch concepts.

Eighth_Seraph
2008-01-04, 08:45 PM
...

Um. Hmm. This is difficult to respond to. What I'm getting from your post is "I have an AWESOME character idea but my friend doesn't like it. Tell him I'm right!" Your claim that he'd be unhittable and that the dragon wouldn't notice getting hit by darts are dubious, but it's hard to tell from what you've told us.

It might be easier to show whether your character build is mechanically sound by simply statting him out as he would be at level 20. If, in doing so, you realize that your character will be a bit on the weak side, then it's up to you to decide whether the coolness of your build is worth it.

haggis theif
2008-01-04, 09:05 PM
ive also given this the thought of putting a couple levels of shadow dancer into it. but what i mean by my previous post is over all having him end up like that. giveing him feats like manyshot and penetrating shot will make him better, but dont forget about the ability modifyers every 4 levels(into dex probly), magic stuff that i will edventualy find/buy to help my stats, the possibility of getting an npc to enchant dats with extra types of dammage, and finaly the the att bonus ot level 20 for a 16fighter/4rouge would be 19/11/6/1 so that would add(if all 4 attacks hit) 37 points of dammage.
basicly what im saying is the idea and concept of this character is good if you know what your doing, and i just wanted to see if any one els thought if was a good/cool idea to do, also in the ph the discription of a dart is a "mini javaling" so essentualy your throwing crossbow bolts and not tiny little dartboard darts

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-01-04, 09:35 PM
I... umm... wow... how do I begin?

1) You posted in the wrong thread. This should go into Gaming. Homebrew is for custom-created PrC's, base classes, spells, revamps on existing things... stuff that's creating or re-creating the 'nuts and bolts' of the game, rather than flat character builds...

2) I... I honestly can't think of a weaker character than the one you just posited, unless you took Commoner 20.

3) Dragons have Blindsense, meaning you walk up to a dragon with a cloak of invisibility, and you're a snack. Dragons are also highly sensitive and magical beings. After the first shot (assuming you're outside his Blindsense range), he'd cast See Invisibility on himself, or just Purge Invisibility on the area most likely to contain the annoying thing pricking him, and have a snack.

4) Your damage output on the character would be inferior to even a Monk, and in fact may well be a build which is inferior to a straight monk for the purposes you are intending. Monks at least have Flurry of Blows for extra shots with shuriken. Congratulations, you have done something many on the forums here have thought impossible.

I'm almost wondering if this was a deliberate troll or flame bait...

haggis theif
2008-01-04, 09:40 PM
everything in dnd isnt always about power but the concept of how its used dude:smallannoyed:
thanks for the insults, jerk

**and sorry i wasnt sure for what form to put this under

Necromimesis
2008-01-04, 09:57 PM
No call for the name-calling/accusations of flaming from either of you. Shame on you both. :smallbiggrin:

That said, ShneekeyTheLost is right. He may not have been the most polite about it, but he's right. As I said earlier, it's an extremely sub-optimal build, but if you're willing to deal with a complete lack of power to fit your concept, that's your choice and I congratulate you on knowing what you want.

If you can post up a build idea or any thoughts you had on the actual creation process, perhaps I can give you a more in-depth analysis of what can be done to help increase the power level. You stated I forgot ability increases, damage enhancements, and multiple attacks per round. Fair enough. However, look at the following.

Str 30, +5 returning flaming frost acidic dart, weapon focus, Dex 34, Weapon Specialization.

Full attack +35/+30/+25/+20. Damage 1d4+3d6+15, with the possibility of a 2d6 sneak attack.

Yes, this averages in at 108 if all attacks hit. Not to bad, but consider that a Warblade with the same stats and a dagger with those properties can do 1d4+3d6+115 as a standard action. You'll never be top-notch, but I suppose you could make it work...

haggis theif
2008-01-04, 10:06 PM
by going into epic leveling, maby taking 10 levels in shadowdancer would give him the 'assasin' feel, even thou he might not be that great of a dammage dealer, but of course most people dont go into the epic leveling because it gets kinda dull, hell, my group usualy doesnt get past a full campain be for the players start screwing stuff up(how fun!!:smalltongue: ), and yes my friend i mentioned in the first post would no dout be the dm

Necromimesis
2008-01-04, 10:17 PM
Don't go Shadowdancer. The class would add nothing to this build, and is fairly weak to boot. If you ABSOLUTELY want Shadow-related powers, snag some levels in Swordsage instead and take Shadow Hand maneuvers.

Still, you're better off avoiding them altogether, as most don't work with ranged weapons.

I'm still confused as to what you want us to help you with though...I've given you two critiques, and, rather than responding to them, you seem to have simply given more stuff about the character that's seemingly unrelated (or maybe I just don't see the correlation). What advice/info are you looking for outside of what I've given you?

haggis theif
2008-01-04, 10:36 PM
well for throwing weapons, do you think the dart would be the best choice for a halfling? because between daggers and darts, darts seam the be the better choice
cost dammage range weight critical
dagger 2gp 1d3 1d4 10ft 1lb 19-20/x2
dart 5sp 1d3 1d4 20ft 1/2lb x2

Nebo_
2008-01-04, 10:39 PM
Daggers are better, but still not great with that build.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-01-04, 10:41 PM
Allow me to make sure I am understanding you...

You are trying to design a character build which is a sneaky, thrown weapons, hit and fade away kinda guy without loosing too much BAB, right?

May I make an honest suggestion:

Monk11/Master Thrower5/Exotic Weapon Master3/Rogue1

Monk11 gives you Perfect Flurry. This means two extra attacks. Shuriken are monk weapons, thus you get two extra shots. Combine this with Rapid Shot, and you're dishing out a lot of shuriken in one round.

Shuriken are considered Exotic Weapons, so you can get things like Stunning Blow to load up a Stunning Fist (which you get as a bonus feat as a Monk) in a shuriken to stun someone at range, Close Quarters Ranged Fighting so you can chunk shuriken without AoO's being applied against you, and Ranged Disarm to potentially disable opponents so they can't close with you. It also has full BAB.

Master Thrower gives you fun abilities like Deadeye Shot (improved critical damage on all thrown shuriken), Palm Throw to effectively double the number of shuriken you can throw in a turn, then either Sneak Shot or Weak Spot to resolve your attacks as touch attacks. It is also a full BAB PrC.

So at level 19, you have a +16 BAB. This gives you +14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+4/-1 (before stat and other modifiers). With Palm Shot doubling the number of hits you land, that's 14 attacks in one round.

Now, against that dragon you were talking about...

The Dragon is definately larger than you, that means you get Weak Spot so ALL your attacks are touch attacks, ignoring the insane Natural Armor Bonus and going up against their Touch AC of like 8. You almost literally cannot miss. That dragon is in for some pain if you pick up a pouch of enchanted shuriken with +1d6 of the appropriate element. Seriously, ouch. Oh, let's not forget the +1d6 sneak attack on every attack either.

Furthermore, Monks are all about sneaking around and not being seen, so you have all the coolness factor of a Shadowdancer without the suck, you've got the damage output you're wanting, and ways of a) not missing, and b) not drawing fire.

Sound like what you want?

haggis theif
2008-01-04, 10:54 PM
wow and i thought the shudiken only did wimpy little 1 damage hits

also, is it possible for a lv 20 fighter to do a full attack with a light crossbow using the rapid reload feat, and also make every attack with it a double/many shot?

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-01-04, 11:07 PM
wow and i thought the shudiken only did wimpy little 1 damage hits

They will with your halfling (small size and all), but base damage is nothing.

14 attacks at 1d6 sneak attack = 14d6 = 42 damage on average. +14 damage from the actual shuriken themselve = 56 damage on average. This is with no enchantments or Strength modifiers (which you loose with Palm Shot and Weak Point anyways).


also, is it possible for a lv 20 fighter to do a full attack with a light crossbow using the rapid reload feat, and also make every attack with it a double/many shot?

You wouldn't need to be a level 20 fighter, but yes, a Light Crossbow with the Rapid Reload feat has as many shots as a fellow with a bow, but do less damage.

haggis theif
2008-01-04, 11:13 PM
14 attacks at 1d6 sneak attack = 14d6 = 42 damage on average. +14 damage from the actual shuriken themselve = 56 damage on average. This is with no enchantments or Strength modifiers (which you loose with Palm Shot and Weak Point anyways).

its the dex bonus added to throwing weapons no strength, but i see, with the ability modifyer, if the person had 18 dex that would be an additional 14x4 points of damage so he would actualy be doing another 56 damage. so pretty much what your saying is if everything hit, it yould do 56+14d6+14. thats a good build

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-01-04, 11:16 PM
its the dex bonus added to throwing weapons no strength, but i see, if the person had 18 dex that would be an additional 14x4 modifyer so he would actualy be doing another 56 dammage. so pretty much what your saying is if everything hit, it yould do 56+14d6+14. thats a good build

Dex is, sadly, not added to damage, only on your attack roll. This means a good Dex is necessary to be able to hit, although with Sneaky Throw + Weak Point, you're looking at a flat-footed touch attack (i.e. AC 10 + size modifier + Deflection mods + wierd stuff), you're aiming at a 10 most of the time, so it shouldn't be too difficult.

Necromimesis
2008-01-04, 11:36 PM
ShneekeyTheLost...good build idea, but I think it could be altered to fit his concept more.

Rogue 11/Fighter 4/Master Thrower5. Take the Halfling Rogue variant from Races of the Wild (melee sneak attack loses 1d6, ranged sneak attack gains 1d6) and you'll have a +7d6 sneak attack.

Use darts, like you planned.

Using Master Thrower and Palm Throw with your +16 Base Attack Bonus gives us eight attacks at +16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1. Add a 30 Dex to that and, say, a couple of +3 clouting Darts (clouting adds +5 to ranged damage), and we're looking at an attack spread of +29/+29/+24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14. not to shabby (especially considering that, at the expense of our strength to damage, these are touch attacks).

Average damage (Given +3 clouting darts and a 24 strength...easily doable) is 1d4+14. That's 8d4+112 for a full attack, with an additional 56d6 if it's a sneak attack. Using this as a touch attack reduces the damage to 8d4+64, which isn't bad.

There. A decent dart throwing build. :smallbiggrin:

haggis theif
2008-01-04, 11:47 PM
how would you end up with 24 str at 20?(besides for magic items) because the halfling get -2 the str, even if you roll a 18 at the beginning and till level 20 putt all the gained ap in str you would only end up at str of 21, also you would still need the dex for accuracy so you would need some magic items that boosted the streingth and dex for a halfling thrower to truly work

Necromimesis
2008-01-04, 11:58 PM
I'm assuming that you're not going to be running around naked at level 20. Although for some reason I thought your strength was higher (forgot to check), so I over exaggerated that. It should be 20 (from a +6 item), reducing your damage by 24. My mistake.

Nebo_
2008-01-05, 12:08 AM
how would you end up with 24 str at 20?(besides for magic items)

You don't. That's what magic items are for.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-01-05, 12:38 AM
A slight variant on your suggestion:

Rogue11/Monk1/Exotic Weapon Master3/Master Thrower 5

Sneaky Toss + Weak Point = flat-footed touch attacks. EWM to stave off AoO's from chunking throwing weapons in melee and a couple other tricks worth more than feats. Monk for Flurry (even at -2, you get an extra attack) and weapon proficency in Shuriken. This gives you an extra two attacks to your build, being able to throw exotic ranged weapons in melee without provoking AoO, and we're not worried about penalties on to-hit since we're doing a bunch of flat-footed touch attacks...

Now, let's take this monster build up against that dragon you're talking about.

Now, a Dragon has an abysmal (under 10) touch AC. Make it Flat Footed, and you almost literally cannot miss. So, let's break out the damage... (with RapidShot and Monk Flurry active) and Palm Shot.

+12/+12/+12/+12/+12/+12/+8/+8/+3/+3/-2/-2 for a total of 12 attacks. Now, with that Dex of 30, you're looking at something like a +8 on your worst attack, before bonuses. In other words, you only miss on a natural 1.

Each attack is doing 1 (base damage) + 7d6 (21 damage average) + whatever bonuses you wish to enchant (let's say it's the +3 Clouting for another 8 damage). That's 37 damage per shuriken. Times twelve attacks. That's an average of 444 damage a round.

Oh Yogi... I don't think the Ranger's gonna like this...

haggis theif
2008-01-05, 12:45 AM
i think is safe to say that this post does fit in the homebrew design catigory, be cause it started with a simple idea, any manyother people have thought of numerouse ways to make it better while keeping inmind the throwing weapon concept.

Nebo_
2008-01-05, 01:26 AM
i think is safe to say that this post does fit in the homebrew design catigory, be cause it started with a simple idea, any manyother people have thought of numerouse ways to make it better while keeping inmind the throwing weapon concept.

No, character development, whether mechanical or fluffy, goes on the Gaming board. This board is for new or modified rules; either of which apply to this character.

haggis theif
2008-01-05, 02:01 AM
well i just felt like saying something corny like that

Magnor Criol
2008-01-05, 02:07 AM
well, my friend is right right there, but we all know a uber bow guy is lame and is a legolas knock off. with the right feats**(and a clock of invisibility**) this guy would be doing massive damage!

Clock of Invisibility: This is a small silver clock about twice the size of a clenched fist. The bearer of the clock can, with a command word, activate the clock. Doing so sheathes the bearer in an effect identical to the spell invisibility; however, the clock's inner gears and mechanisms activate as well, producing a constant, noisy ticking and tocking. Creatures makign a Listen check to hear the bearer (whether they make such a check consciously or not) receive a +10 bonus on their check.
The clock must be borne in the hands to reap the benefits; it cannot be shoved in the pocket, backpack, or other area. The only acceptable alternative is to string the Clock of Invisibility on cord and wear it around one's neck.

Faint illusion; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, invisibility; Price 15,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.


-E- Also: Despite my tongue-in-cheek addition, I agree with Nebo - this belongs in Gaming, not Homebrew.

Nebo_
2008-01-05, 02:56 AM
Clock of Invisibility: This is a small silver clock about twice the size of a clenched fist. The bearer of the clock can, with a command word, activate the clock. Doing so sheathes the bearer in an effect identical to the spell invisibility; however, the clock's inner gears and mechanisms activate as well, producing a constant, noisy ticking and tocking. Creatures makign a Listen check to hear the bearer (whether they make such a check consciously or not) receive a +10 bonus on their check.
The clock must be borne in the hands to reap the benefits; it cannot be shoved in the pocket, backpack, or other area. The only acceptable alternative is to string the Clock of Invisibility on cord and wear it around one's neck.

Faint illusion; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, invisibility; Price 15,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.

You win a cookie.

... Damn there is no cookie smiley. You'll have to imagine it.

Kiren
2008-01-05, 03:40 PM
i like the dart idea, thought their is a weaker throwing weapon,

Advanced caltrops, theres rules to throw them

haggis theif
2008-01-05, 05:33 PM
yea, throwing darts is like throwing 8ing wooden spikes at people,but also, clubs have a range incrament(take a bunch of clubs[free] wrap in cloth and soak in oil, set on fire and you have an non magical ranged flaming blunt weapon!!!!)

magic8BALL
2008-01-06, 01:24 AM
...so how did you get a score of 19?

...the maximum you could roll is 18, unless you're rolling more dice or using something bigger than a d6.

Also, 12 levels of fighter are all you need. Sure... the BAB is good, but a dragons AC isn't, and you cannot power attack at range. Hell, by level 20, the dragon should relise whats happening, and either cast protection from arrows (and darts and such) or grapple your halfling to death. And then cleave on to the rest of the party... like the wizard.

Why are you building a character around one enounter? It's going to suck at everything else ever.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-01-06, 09:06 AM
...so how did you get a score of 19?

...the maximum you could roll is 18, unless you're rolling more dice or using something bigger than a d6.

Also, 12 levels of fighter are all you need. Sure... the BAB is good, but a dragons AC isn't, and you cannot power attack at range. Hell, by level 20, the dragon should relise whats happening, and either cast protection from arrows (and darts and such) or grapple your halfling to death. And then cleave on to the rest of the party... like the wizard.

Why are you building a character around one enounter? It's going to suck at everything else ever.
1) He rolled 17 and got +2 from being halfling
2) He isn't "building a character around one encounter", it was just an example of an encounter that his friend claimed he would be worthless against.

haggis theif
2008-01-06, 12:01 PM
yea, but i just noticed(for the people who are giving example builds) that your calculating the sneak att wrong, even when your doing a full attack, the sneak attack only goes with the first attack

SilentNight
2008-01-06, 12:08 PM
yea, but i just noticed(for the people who are giving example builds) that your calculating the sneak att wrong, even when your doing a full attack, the sneak attack only goes with the first attack

Wrong. Sneak attacks apply to all attacks that meet the prerequisites. If you make a full attack against a FF foe all the attacks will get sneak attack.