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North
2008-01-06, 04:15 PM
Elven article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20071221) just came out on the DnD boards. +2 to Dex and Wis Yay! Lots n lots of bonuses.

Article Spoilered for your convenience.

I've been trying to decide what glimpse into the D&D 4th Edition process I could share with you this month. I wanted something cool, something big, something that said "Happy holidays" to everyone in the D&D community.

So I looked around at what the team and I are working on during these last few days of the work year. James Wyatt, Mike Mearls, and I are reviewing every playtest comment, every monster entry, and every rules element, but nothing in that process seems exactly right for what I'm imagining.

I'm busy putting the finishing touches on the skills chapter, paragon paths, epic destinies, and magic items, but that stuff still needs to go through the editors before it's ready for prime time viewing.

Michele Carter, Jeremy Crawford, and Kim Mohan -- excellent editors all -- are neck-deep in the Player's Handbook, scrubbing classes and powers so that they really shine and making sure that everything synchs up from one chapter to the next. One place where they feel pretty much done (at least until James, Mike, and I come back with an adjustment based on the feedback we're reviewing) is the races chapter. Maybe something in there will satisfy my holiday spirit …

I just stepped over to talk to Andy Collins, my mechanical design and development manager (he oversees all of the mechanical game designers and developers that work on my team) to see what he thinks would make a good present. After a brief conversation, and a courtesy call to Scott Rouse to get his buy off, we're all in agreement. I'm going to share with you the first look at a D&D 4th Edition race entry. And, since it is the holiday season, what better place to start than with the elf.

In the current 4th Edition preview book, Races and Classes, we talked a bit about our approach to races. Let me add to that before you skim down to look at the elf. One of the changes that we decided on early for player character races was that we would only provide ability score bonuses. Penalties based on your choice of race are a thing of the past. We wanted to make sure each race had powers and abilities that set it apart and helped make it feel more like the race in question. We also worked on some size issues to make better sense of the various characters and their place in the world. Finally, we looked at the flavor and back story to make sure that each race had a unique role that didn't impinge on any of the other races in the game.

OK, enough with the chit-chat. Let's unwrap your present!
Elf

Quick, wary archers who freely roam the forests and wilds.

Racial Traits

Average Height: 5' 7"-6' 0"
Average Weight: 100-130 lb.

Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom
Size: Medium
Speed: 7 squares
Vision: Low-light

Languages: Common, Elven
Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 Perception

Elven Accuracy
Elf Racial Power

With an instant of focus, you take careful aim at your foe and strike with the legendary accuracy of the elves.

Encounter
Free Action
Personal
Effect: Reroll an attack roll. Use the second roll, even if it's lower.

Elven Weapon Training: You gain proficiency with the longbow and the shortbow.
Wild Step: You ignore difficult terrain when you shift (even if you have a power that allows you to shift multiple squares).
Group Awareness: You grant non-elf allies within 5 squares a +1 racial bonus to Perception checks.
Elven Accuracy: You can use elven accuracy as an encounter power.

Wild and free, elves guard their forested lands using stealth and deadly arrows from the trees. They build their homes in close harmony with the forest, so perfectly joined that travelers often fail to notice that they have entered an elven community until it is too late.

Play an elf if you want …

* to be quick, quiet, and wild;
* to lead your companions through the deep woods and pepper your enemies with arrows;
* to play a ranger, a rogue, or a cleric.

Physical Qualities

Elves are slender, athletic folk about as tall as humans. They have the same range of complexions as humans, tending more toward tan or brown hues. A typical elf's hair color is dark brown, autumn orange, mossy green, or deep gold. Elves' ears are long and pointed, and their eyes are vibrant blue, violet, or green. Elves have little body hair, but males often grow long sideburns. They favor a wild look to their hair, which is often a shaggy mass of braids.

Elves mature at about the same rate as humans but show few effects of age past adulthood. The first sign of an elf's advancing age is typically a change in hair color -- sometimes graying but usually darkening or taking on more autumnal hues. Most elves live to be well over 200 years old and remain vigorous almost to the end.

Playing an Elf

Elves are a people of deeply felt but short-lived passions. They are easily moved to delighted laughter, blinding wrath, or mournful tears. They are inclined to impulsive behavior, and members of other races sometimes see elves as flighty or impetuous, but elves do not shirk responsibility or forget commitments. Thanks in part to their long life span, elves sometimes have difficulty taking certain matters as seriously as other races do, but when genuine threats arise, elves are fierce and reliable allies.

Elves revere the natural world. Their connection to their surroundings enables them to perceive much. They never cut living trees, and when they create permanent communities, they do so by carefully growing or weaving arbors, tree houses, and catwalks from living branches. They prefer the primal power of the natural world to the arcane magic their eladrin cousins employ. Elves love to explore new forests and new lands, and it's not unusual for individuals or small bands to wander hundreds of miles from their homelands.

Elves are loyal and merry friends. They love simple pleasures -- dancing, singing, footraces, and contests of balance and skill -- and rarely see a reason to tie themselves down to dull or disagreeable tasks. Despite how unpleasant war can be, a threat to their homes, families, or friends can make elves grimly serious and prompt them to take up arms.

At the dawn of creation, elves and eladrin were a single race dwelling both in the Feywild and in the world, and passing freely between the two. When the drow rebelled against their kin, under the leadership of the god Lolth, the resulting battles tore the fey kingdoms asunder. Ties between the peoples of the Feywild and the world grew tenuous, and eventually the elves and eladrin grew into two distinct races. Elves are descended from those who lived primarily in the world, and they no longer dream of the Feywild. They love the forests and wilds of the world that they have made their home.

Elf Characteristics: Agile, friendly, intuitive, joyful, perceptive, quick, tempestuous, wild.

Male Names: Adran, Beiro, Carric, Erdan, Gennal, Heian, Lucan, Peren, Rollen, Soveliss, Therren, Varis.

Female Names: Adrie, Birel, Chaedi, Dara, Ennia, Farall, Harrel, Iriann, Lia, Mialee, Shava, Thia, Valenae.

Elf Adventurers

Three sample elf adventurers are described below.

Varis is an elf ranger and a devout worshiper of Melora, the god of the wilds. When a goblin army forced his people from their woodland village, the elves took refuge in the nearest human town, walled and guarded by soldiers. Varis now leads other elves and some human townsfolk in raids against the goblins. Although he maintains a cheerful disposition, he frequently stares into the distance, listening, expecting at any moment to hear signs of approaching foes.

Lia is an elf rogue whose ancestral forest burned to the ground decades ago. Lia grew up on the wasteland's fringes in a large human city, unable to quite fit in. Her dreams called her to the forests, while her waking hours were spent in the dirtiest parts of civilization. She joined a group of adventurers after trying to cut a warlock's purse, and she fell in love with the wide world beyond the city.

Heian is an elf cleric of Sehanine, the god of the moon. The elven settlement where he was born still thrives in a forest untouched by the darkness spreading through the world, but he left home years ago, in search of new horizons and adventures. His travels lately have brought rumors to his ears that danger might be brewing in the ancient forest, and he is torn between a desire to seek his own way in the world and a sense of duty to his homeland.

Well, there you have it. The first unveiling of a full race entry from the 4th Edition Player's Handbook. Oh, what the heck. I'm feeling generous this morning. It must be the season. Here's a racial feat you can peek at, too.

Elven Precision [Elf]

Prerequisites: Elf, elven accuracy racial power, heroic tier
Benefit: When you use the elven accuracy power, you gain a +2 bonus to the new attack roll.

OK, I better stop here or I'll be tempted to show you the entire class chapter. Hmmm … maybe next time? Anyway, have a great holiday season and remember to …

Keep playing!

--Bill Slavicsek

Theli
2008-01-06, 04:22 PM
This was actually released December 21st I believe. There should already be a thread about it on these boards.

North
2008-01-06, 04:28 PM
Oops. My bad. Tried looking for it. Didnt see anything on first page.:smallredface:

Inyssius Tor
2008-01-06, 04:29 PM
Not that you can really be blamed for not looking, because it's on the ninth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67291) page now.

Crow
2008-01-06, 05:51 PM
Group Awareness: You grant non-elf allies within 5 squares a +1 racial bonus to Perception checks.

Dear god I hope elves are the only race with something like this. This could become a book-keeping (and mapping) nightmare. Not to mention it makes no f-ing sense. If the elf spots something, he should tell you. There is no reason that having somebody near you should make you more perceptive without them somehow transmitting the information to you.

Miles Invictus
2008-01-06, 11:39 PM
I don't see how it's any worse than the Auras the Paladin and Marshall have.

Draz74
2008-01-07, 12:26 AM
I don't see how it's any worse than the Auras the Paladin and Marshall have.

1) It makes no sense, fluff-wise. Your senses are keener just because you're around an elf?

2) It has a set distance of radius. That's really annoying, because it means you can be getting and losing this bonus every round, just by moving closer and further from the party elf. Maybe the Paladin and Marshal had the same problem, but Bardic Music, for example, was a better precedent, with an aura that worked as long as you could hear its source.

TheOOB
2008-01-07, 12:26 AM
I don't see how it's any worse than the Auras the Paladin and Marshall have.

Aura's are class abilities that a)provide meaningful bonuses, and b) come from supernatural sources or from an exceptional charisma and ability to lead. The elven ability is a tiny bonus and doesn't have an extreamly good reason to exist.

Wordmiser
2008-01-07, 12:35 AM
I don't see how it's any worse than the Auras the Paladin and Marshall have. We don't take kindly to arguments ad antiquitatem 'round these here parts, mister.

Theli
2008-01-07, 12:36 AM
There is already a thread about this, it's on the first page, and somebody else already granted the service of posting a link to it on this one.

So why not take the conversation there?

Ralfarius
2008-01-07, 12:48 AM
1) It makes no sense, fluff-wise. Your senses are keener just because you're around an elf?
I could see this being a matter of you being aware of the elf's body language cues. If he's glancing about here and there, you might be inclined to look in the same directions if you're close enough to have a similar vantage point, thus giving you a better chance of looking/listening in the right direction to catch something important.


2) It has a set distance of radius. That's really annoying, because it means you can be getting and losing this bonus every round, just by moving closer and further from the party elf. Maybe the Paladin and Marshal had the same problem, but Bardic Music, for example, was a better precedent, with an aura that worked as long as you could hear its source.
Yeah, that book-keeping could be a bit cumbersome, especially if there are a lot of distance-related bonuses to be keeping track of for the party in relation to each other.

Also, I figured posting in here might be more pertinent as the previous thread was past page three and approaching old enough to be bordering on the dreaded thread necromancy. :smalleek:

Crow
2008-01-07, 12:52 AM
I could see this being a matter of you being aware of the elf's body language cues. If he's glancing about here and there, you might be inclined to look in the same directions if you're close enough to have a similar vantage point, thus giving you a better chance of looking/listening in the right direction to catch something important.

This would make sense if every party member (non-elves) with better perception than you gave the same bonus.

Ralfarius
2008-01-07, 12:55 AM
This would make sense if every party member (non-elves) with better perception than you gave the same bonus.
Don't you see? The pointy ears act as helpful signaling devices! No other race has those!

Crow
2008-01-07, 01:00 AM
Don't you see? The pointy ears act as helpful signaling devices! No other race has those!

If they could move independantly of one another, or involuntarily like a dog wags it's tail, that would be priceless. :smallsmile:

TheOOB
2008-01-07, 01:35 AM
If they could move independantly of one another, or involuntarily like a dog wags it's tail, that would be priceless. :smallsmile:

Ohh no, you just turned elves into the live action The Tick.

Kompera
2008-01-07, 01:50 AM
I see lots of stat bonuses and skill bonuses and feats and racial abilities, and not a single 'downside'.

I wonder what they're going to give Humans to make them a desirable race, next to all that plussy goodness?

SmartAlec
2008-01-07, 02:00 AM
If the elf spots something, he should tell you.

The article only mentions the bonus, not why the bonus happens. Maybe the Elf does.

Jari Kafghan
2008-01-07, 02:06 AM
I see lots of stat bonuses and skill bonuses and feats and racial abilities, and not a single 'downside'.


QFT

Nancing arrow targets.

Inyssius Tor
2008-01-07, 02:21 AM
QFT

Nancing arrow targets.

Wizards doesn't penalize people for choosing their race anymore. No more downsides, except in comparison to other races' benefits.

Kioran
2008-01-07, 03:05 AM
Wizards doesn't penalize people for choosing their race anymore. No more downsides, except in comparison to other races' benefits.

Which is plain bull****. Now theyīve just moved around the frame of reference. Now, not having a Bonus is pretty similiar to having a penalty, since that other guy still does it better.....
Okay, it looks better, but why not play it straight? Oh, forgot, that wasnīt sexy enough next to warbladitude and plussy goodness

*barf*

Chronicled
2008-01-07, 03:10 AM
Yeah, that book-keeping could be a bit cumbersome, especially if there are a lot of distance-related bonuses to be keeping track of for the party in relation to each other.

As a DM, I'd like this. It'll ensure the entire party is bunched up, making it simple for my enemy casters to AoE them. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Also, the elven ears jokes? I choked on my drink. :smallamused:

Sebastian
2008-01-07, 04:35 AM
I could see this being a matter of you being aware of the elf's body language cues. If he's glancing about here and there, you might be inclined to look in the same directions if you're close enough to have a similar vantage point, thus giving you a better chance of looking/listening in the right direction to catch something important.


The real question is, what if the elf DON'T catch something important?

(to not mention things like, what if you are in darkness and can't see the elf, or the elf is invisible, or he is behind a brick wall but still within 5 squares, or things like those.)

Morty
2008-01-07, 06:20 AM
Wizards doesn't penalize people for choosing their race anymore. No more downsides, except in comparison to other races' benefits.

Which makes no sense. First, you aren't "penalized" for choosing a race in 3ed, because you get more good things than bad, except for half-orcs. Second, what's wrong about races having actual disadvantages? Do people really can't stand losing anything?

Ralfarius
2008-01-07, 09:02 AM
The real question is, what if the elf DON'T catch something important?

(to not mention things like, what if you are in darkness and can't see the elf, or the elf is invisible, or he is behind a brick wall but still within 5 squares, or things like those.)
Even if the elf doesn't notice it, the gentle swishing of his ears gives you the focus you need to sharpen your own senses.

Actually, related to the 'if the elf can do it, can anyone else?' question... I can foresee there potentially being some sort of class 'perceptive' perk - perhaps for a rogue or ranger - that might function in a manner very similarly.e

Person_Man
2008-01-07, 09:51 AM
I for one dislike any ability that provides X bonus to all Y rolls within a 30 ft radius. It just makes a D&D more about bookkeeping, and it slows down combat, because every player needs to check exactly where they are standing at any moment and recalculate their rolls. I admit that its easy to do if you only have 1 Bard or Elf of whatever in the party. But if each player has some kind of minor bonus that they add to everyone in the group but only within a certain radius, combat grinds to a halt.

And in general, abilities that add minor static bonuses are boring and/or weak. Why would I spend a feat to get a +2 to an attack roll once per encounter? Presumably there are other feats that grant totally different abilities, re-rolls, or scaled bonuses (though they might get rid of these in 4th ed). It would be far better for 4th ed if they limited all buffs to one or two classes, and they made those buffs meaningful and fun, not "+2 to your next whatever."

Theli
2008-01-07, 10:28 AM
Also, I figured posting in here might be more pertinent as the previous thread was past page three and approaching old enough to be bordering on the dreaded thread necromancy. :smalleek:

That thread isn't even 3 weeks old. That's hardly thread necromancy.

Conners
2008-01-07, 10:33 AM
Well, the elf has certainly become powered.... I'm not sure how to feel about this new direction, I guess it depends on the other races' statistics.... Will the monster races like goblins, gnolls and drow be improved as well?

Lord Tataraus
2008-01-07, 02:15 PM
Personally, I hate the idea of no drawbacks on races. I think that every race should lose something. The human was fine because it had no bonuses whatsoever except the skill point. With no penalties, a halfling can be a decent melee power-attacker like the human, but that doesn't really make any sense. Why is the halfling just as strong as the human? Drawbacks also let you think more about a race decision and are sometimes fun to play with (the extremely rude dwarf).

Emperor Demonking
2008-01-07, 02:32 PM
The elven special ability looks very strong, I hope not all races have an ability that powerful.

Jayabalard
2008-01-07, 02:54 PM
Even if the elf doesn't notice it, the gentle swishing of his ears gives you the focus you need to sharpen your own senses.

Actually, related to the 'if the elf can do it, can anyone else?' question... I can foresee there potentially being some sort of class 'perceptive' perk - perhaps for a rogue or ranger - that might function in a manner very similarly.eI don't see anything in that text that implies that the party would not get that perception bonus even if the elf is unconscious in a fireman's carry...

The fluff on this is absurd, and while a little absurdity is fine, imo this is well past that point.


Which makes no sense. First, you aren't "penalized" for choosing a race in 3ed, because you get more good things than bad, except for half-orcs. Second, what's wrong about races having actual disadvantages? Do people really can't stand losing anything?it's just the next step in the "give people have higher numbers to sell more books" game... it's based on the same sort of mentality that leads to splatbooks giving bigger bonuses... people like big numbers, and that sells well.

Counterspin
2008-01-07, 03:03 PM
The races have been increased in power to increase the number of races which can be played starting at level 1 by players. Lot's of low LA races were popular with players, but they were generally a bad decision. Additionally, all these people are still yelping about how this is overpowered. Power is a comparative value. Since both pcs and npcs will have the new races, it's a push there, and we have yet to see monster stats, so I can't see the reason for all the howling.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-07, 04:09 PM
The reason I worry about overpowered is realism. Think about 3.x after level 10. These races seem to make that happen even sooner. Even if the elves are the weakest race, heck, especially then, players will be gods on earth much earlier than I would prefer.

Telonius
2008-01-07, 04:13 PM
Elven Crunch. Maybe it could be a secondary product? A nice whole-grain breakfast cereal. "Free mini in each box!"

Morty
2008-01-07, 04:19 PM
it's just the next step in the "give people have higher numbers to sell more books" game... it's based on the same sort of mentality that leads to splatbooks giving bigger bonuses... people like big numbers, and that sells well.

Maybe. I don't mind bigger numbers all that much myself, as after all NPCs and probably monsters will get those bigger numbers as well, so it averages out. However, like Lord Tartarus, I think that racial penalties are necessary fulff-wise and to draw distinctions between races other than "what awesome stuff will I get".

Crow
2008-01-07, 06:18 PM
I think there is definately a place for racial penalties in D&D. The Halfling to Human strength example is a good reason why in my opinion. Unless halflings have a muscle density that would rival most reptiles, this would seriously diminish verisimilitude for me. However, the distinction could be as simple as giving the larger, non-frail races a bonus to strength...which will not happen. Four different races with a strength bonus...I don't think so.

Artanis
2008-01-07, 08:31 PM
I think there is definately a place for racial penalties in D&D. The Halfling to Human strength example is a good reason why in my opinion. Unless halflings have a muscle density that would rival most reptiles, this would seriously diminish verisimilitude for me. However, the distinction could be as simple as giving the larger, non-frail races a bonus to strength...which will not happen. Four different races with a strength bonus...I don't think so.
Or give a strength penalty for being small. It wouldn't be a penalty to Halflings, just a penalty to small characters, which Halflings coincidentally are :smallwink:

Tellah
2008-01-07, 08:59 PM
Racial penalties are a bad design ethic because they either cause a substantial hardship to the character or fail to penalize them at all, while limiting the number of possible character types available.

The 3e elf's racial penalty to CON was bad for any class, so it was a substantial hardship. In contrast, the dwarf's penalty to CHA meant absolutely nothing if the dwarf took one of the many class that has no use for CHA whatsoever. Giving halflings and gnomes a penalty to STR may make a good bit of sense in terms of verisimilitude, but in game terms it just means the player will choose classes with little use for STR. The penalties also made playing a class that relies on a penalized ability shear madness, so that made playing an elf barbarian, halfling duskblade, or half-orc wizard an act of self-flagellation. It actively discouraged eccentric character designs.

Switching to an all-bonus system allows Wizards to balance many of the +1 and +2 LA playable races from 3e for use as playable races in 4e without clunky adjustment mechanics or alterations to those races' core shtick. It also makes under-used character choices, like the elf barbarian or halfling duskblade, less crazy. Taking a race with +2 to a key ability for a class has been the power-gamer's tactic throughout 3e, but it's not necessarily always the perfect choice. Gray elves are certainly popular for building wizards, but few would go so far as to say they are strictly superior to humans in all cases--and the wizard needs little more than intelligence to outshine the entire table.

The mechanics we've seen for the elf reflect a smarter design ethic than we saw for 3e. Certainly the bonuses to DEX and WIS would make the race an excellent choice for rangers, rogues and clerics, but their per-encounter racial ability is a tempting choice for any class that makes attack rolls. The Eladrin power we've heard of that allows them a short hop into the Feywild as a short-range teleport could be useful for any class at all, and if I were building a cleric who focused on touch-range healing spells, I'd find the ability to hop up next to wounded opponents without incurring AoOs just as seductive as a +2 to WIS.

3e made it possible to play any class with any race. 4e seems to be making every clase/race combination at least viable, and perhaps even desirable to some degree. To me, this is a very good thing.

Tren
2008-01-07, 11:20 PM
Here here, both for your argument and your avatar. Let's pray 4E also does something about those spoony bards.

Kantolin
2008-01-07, 11:35 PM
I admit that its easy to do if you only have 1 Bard or Elf of whatever in the party. But if each player has some kind of minor bonus that they add to everyone in the group but only within a certain radius, combat grinds to a halt.

To me, honestly, the only mild problem in a psuedo-standard party with this is the 'within a certain radius'.

Without that, I'd just put it on my sheet at the beginning of the campaign, and erase it if the elf/elves of the party died. Or, if I was in a campaign where people kept jumping in and out of the party, focus on that for a minute or so at the beginning of each run. It doesn't sound like it'd bog things down dramatically more than casting buffs around.

Another pro to things having larger numbers is that it gives you more leeway in the middle. If a human is a +0 strength, and an orc is a +2 strength, and you want to add in a half-orc while avoid having odd bonuses to stats... you have to either make the human or the orc identical in power. If you invent another race, you then have to decide on human or orc, as there is nothing in between - you're either 'normal' strength, or incredibly powerful (By comparison).

If a human has +0 strength, and an orc +4, then you can slip in a +2 and have a happy medium. You then can't have anything between them.

So eh. Larger numbers don't bother me much.

Theli
2008-01-07, 11:49 PM
Here here, both for your argument and your avatar. Let's pray 4E also does something about those spoony bards.

What does a silly Final Fantasy 2 translation have to do with 4E? No seriously, I wanna know! :p

Kompera
2008-01-08, 12:07 AM
I don't see anything in that text that implies that the party would not get that perception bonus even if the elf is unconscious in a fireman's carry...
And there goes the game again, devolving into a RAW shadow of it's former self... How about if the Elf is dead? After all, in 3e there's no definition given for the 'dead' state which limits the players actions, much to the amusement of all when people describe how, under the God of RAW, they just keep fighting on after death. So the same would apply to any racial proximity bonuses.

Postulating that several races will grant similar "while within X feet" bonuses, I'll be designing a BBEG who keeps a bone or some other body part from each of these races on his person at all times, so that he can enjoy all of the effects.

Kioran
2008-01-08, 02:11 AM
Racial penalties are a bad design ethic because they either cause a substantial hardship to the character or fail to penalize them at all, while limiting the number of possible character types available.

The 3e elf's racial penalty to CON was bad for any class, so it was a substantial hardship. In contrast, the dwarf's penalty to CHA meant absolutely nothing if the dwarf took one of the many class that has no use for CHA whatsoever. Giving halflings and gnomes a penalty to STR may make a good bit of sense in terms of verisimilitude, but in game terms it just means the player will choose classes with little use for STR. The penalties also made playing a class that relies on a penalized ability shear madness, so that made playing an elf barbarian, halfling duskblade, or half-orc wizard an act of self-flagellation. It actively discouraged eccentric character designs.

Switching to an all-bonus system allows Wizards to balance many of the +1 and +2 LA playable races from 3e for use as playable races in 4e without clunky adjustment mechanics or alterations to those races' core shtick. It also makes under-used character choices, like the elf barbarian or halfling duskblade, less crazy. Taking a race with +2 to a key ability for a class has been the power-gamer's tactic throughout 3e, but it's not necessarily always the perfect choice. Gray elves are certainly popular for building wizards, but few would go so far as to say they are strictly superior to humans in all cases--and the wizard needs little more than intelligence to outshine the entire table.

The mechanics we've seen for the elf reflect a smarter design ethic than we saw for 3e. Certainly the bonuses to DEX and WIS would make the race an excellent choice for rangers, rogues and clerics, but their per-encounter racial ability is a tempting choice for any class that makes attack rolls. The Eladrin power we've heard of that allows them a short hop into the Feywild as a short-range teleport could be useful for any class at all, and if I were building a cleric who focused on touch-range healing spells, I'd find the ability to hop up next to wounded opponents without incurring AoOs just as seductive as a +2 to WIS.

3e made it possible to play any class with any race. 4e seems to be making every clase/race combination at least viable, and perhaps even desirable to some degree. To me, this is a very good thing.

Viable maybe, but still inferior. The guy with the right racial stat increases will still be better than you - sometimes by a lot. Heīll still outpace you. I donīt see, for example, where that makes you fundamentally better off than for example, an Half-Orc Wizard compared to a Human Wizard.
They move around the frame of reference. Now itīs akin to a penalty if you do not get the right bonus, and races are still pigeonholed.

Khanderas
2008-01-08, 04:07 AM
Viable maybe, but still inferior. The guy with the right racial stat increases will still be better than you - sometimes by a lot. Heīll still outpace you. I donīt see, for example, where that makes you fundamentally better off than for example, an Half-Orc Wizard compared to a Human Wizard.
They move around the frame of reference. Now itīs akin to a penalty if you do not get the right bonus, and races are still pigeonholed.
Yes its just how I feel too. It is a slight of hand trick to show bigger numbers. And bigger numbers sell.
"Buy 4E so you don't have to deal with racial penalties, only bonuses for you, valued customer."

Like just before the release of World of Warcraft, Blizzard said that the players got 100% xp gained when rested and 50% when not rested (gain rest when logged out, so those who do not play as often can keep up with the ones who can, and does, play constantly) . Public outcry, most horrible idea ever they said.
Blizzard caved in and instead you get 100% when not rested and 200% when you are rested. Oh and every level cost twice the Xp.
The WoW community was extatic. This was so much better.

Except if they thought about it, it is EXACTLY the same thing. But placated by bigger numbers, WoW became the undisputed champion in online gaming (in terms of active players if nothing else).

And on that WoW comparason... love the concept of "racial powers". :smallamused:

Telonius
2008-01-08, 09:00 AM
Well, I'm not so sure it's completely "sleight of hand." The playable races in 3.x tried to be balanced against a "generic race" that had no bonuses, medium size, and 30 feet movement. If a race's bonuses pushed it up too far from the power level of the generic race, they had to either put in a penalty (stat penalties, light sensitivity, etc) or give them a Level Adjustment. The average power level of all of the races was probably just a little bit above the generic race (ie no stat adjustments and a couple nifty tricks). Certain races were good at certain tasks, certain races were average, certain races were terrible. Gray elf is terrific at wizard, Human is average, Half-orc is terrible.

But from what I'm seeing in 4e, the average power level seems to be something like, "generic level with a +2 to two stats, and a whole bunch of nifty tricks." Seems to me that it'd be a little trickier to get the balance right in that case. The races would have to be more balanced against each other, rather than against a generic race. Certain races will probably be good at cetain tasks, but all the rest will be average. Eldarin might be good for a wizard, but a half-orc (assuming they make it in - have they decided that for sure yet?) wizard wouldn't automatically be any worse off than a human wizard.

AKA_Bait
2008-01-08, 11:39 AM
Did they just shorten the elven life span? I don't remember what it was exactly with 3x but 'well over 200 years' implies 200 something as a max lifespan and I thought 3x was longer.

Also, this seems to raise some worries with the preview book where it mentions that elves can wander for hundreds of years and still find all of their relatives living...

Kurald Galain
2008-01-08, 11:49 AM
The fluff on this is absurd, and while a little absurdity is fine, imo this is well past that point.

Absolutely.

Furthermore, I can live with ludicrous fluff if it actually has a purpose grounded in good game design, but this bonus is also not good game design because of the added bookkeeping, not to mention that +1 is rather insignificant anyway.

Yes, bigger numbers apparently sell books. And yes, they appear to be adding lots of tiny bookkeeping necessities for the sole purpose of marketing their computer interface. In a few years, if you want to play a tabletop RPG, D&D will no longer qualify.

AKA_Bait
2008-01-08, 11:52 AM
In a few years, if you want to play a tabletop RPG, D&D will no longer qualify.

I've been wondering about that as well. I am a bit concerned that Hasboro is looking to abandon the table top market with 4e as a transitional period. This makes me sad.

Kurald Galain
2008-01-08, 11:53 AM
Did they just shorten the elven life span?
Yes. It used to be 600 years, in second edition.

The argument that "dwarves will simply choose a class that doesn't need charisma" means that attribute penalties are (mostly) irrelevant to game balance, not that they're bad for balance. That means that they're still useful for fluff.

And yes, in fluff, a halfling should be less strong than a human.

Although I grant that most mental adjustments, and in particular charisma adjustments, tend to make less sense wrt fluff than physical ones.