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Curmudgeon
2008-01-06, 06:20 PM
I'm getting ready to go into a game where the enemy will likely be using weather magic against the party. If they've got a stronger caster for Control Weather, what can we do if they decide to inundate us with rain, and then cast Cold Snap (Spell Compendium) to turn it into sleet? Endure Elements will keep the party members going, but what about a long caravan of 50 wagons, 100 horses, and 200 NPCs we're supposed to protect?

I'm looking for some magic that will either heat an area, keep precipitation off an area, or at the very least give protection to a lot of creatures. We need to
Keep everybody alive
Keep the equipment from getting stuck or damaged
Keep everybody moving
Is there a simple Transmute Ice to Water spell, or maybe some spells from Sandstorm (which I don't own) that would help to heat things up/dry things out? Having dozens of wagons frozen into wheel ruts is just a nightmarish prospect.

We don't have any Druids or Wu Jen (the real weather experts), but we've got a Bard, a Cleric, and a Sorcerer, plus a Rogue who's proficient with wands and low- to mid-level scrolls. As we'll be starting in a good-sized city, we should be able to stock up on magical supplies before setting off.

the_tick_rules
2008-01-06, 06:23 PM
you could have a spell caster hold an action and use dispel/counter magic when they try to do their weather magic.

Dihan
2008-01-06, 06:36 PM
There's also Dispel Water and Dispel Cold from Sandstorm and Frostburn respectively.

Curmudgeon
2008-01-06, 06:37 PM
Huh? How are you supposed to counter Control Weather cast from miles away? Counterspelling requires that you select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. We don't even know who these enemies are, as individuals; we've just been hired to protect the caravan from them. Weather magic affects an area, and the enemy caster will be jinxing an area that we're heading into.

the_tick_rules
2008-01-06, 06:45 PM
can anyone in your party cast control weather? when they change it couldn't you change it back?

LibraryOgre
2008-01-06, 06:47 PM
More weather magic... once their untoward weather magic becomes evident, cast opposite weather magic to counter.

Jack_Simth
2008-01-06, 06:51 PM
I'm getting ready to go into a game where the enemy will likely be using weather magic against the party. If they've got a stronger caster for Control Weather, what can we do if they decide to inundate us with rain, and then cast Cold Snap (Spell Compendium) to turn it into sleet? Endure Elements will keep the party members going, but what about a long caravan of 50 wagons, 100 horses, and 200 NPCs we're supposed to protect?

I'm looking for some magic that will either heat an area, keep precipitation off an area, or at the very least give protection to a lot of creatures. We need to
Keep everybody alive
Keep the equipment from getting stuck or damaged
Keep everybody moving
Is there a simple Transmute Ice to Water spell, or maybe some spells from Sandstorm (which I don't own) that would help to heat things up/dry things out? Having dozens of wagons frozen into wheel ruts is just a nightmarish prospect.

We don't have any Druids or Wu Jen (the real weather experts), but we've got a Bard, a Cleric, and a Sorcerer, plus a Rogue who's proficient with wands and low- to mid-level scrolls. As we'll be starting in a good-sized city, we should be able to stock up on magical supplies before setting off.
Playing defense is a losing game. The trick is to get offensive.

1) Get some form of temporary shelter set up for the caravan - be that a lot of stone bricks and castings of Wall of Stone or a wand of Summon Monster III (Celestial Dire Badger) for making underground tunnels - but however it's done, you want the caravan out of the equation for a few hours. That buys you time to deal with the actual threat....

2) Find the opposing caster. This is fairly simple, as Control Weather is a radius (two or three miles) centered on the caster. Find the edge, traverse a bit of it, and you soon know where the center is. You'll want a good map that you can draw on.

3) Kill the opposing caster. This is much of what D&D is about, I'm sure you know how.

4) Dispel the weather. As the center of the effect is the dead caster's body, you know what to target with your (Greater) Dispel Magic spells.

5) Fetch caravan and continue.

Curmudgeon
2008-01-06, 07:23 PM
2) Find the opposing caster. This is fairly simple, as Control Weather is a radius (two or three miles) centered on the caster. Find the edge, traverse a bit of it, and you soon know where the center is. Simple? I don't think so. Since the caravan is supposed to be moving, the enemy caster (likely a Druid) will probably be moving to stay ahead and keep us in the controlled weather. Trying to find the center of a moving area from miles away isn't simple. If it is a Druid, the caster could be in any number of innocuous shapes (I'd guess blending into a flock of indigenous birds, or a large grazing herd; but it could even be a fish in a stream). Simple? :annoyed:

Theli
2008-01-06, 07:28 PM
Have you considered divination magic?

Depending on the level of your party, this may be your best, and possibly only, bet.

BRC
2008-01-06, 07:32 PM
That many people will be hard to hide, what type of resources does your enemy have, are they capable of knowing your location? Or could you hide your caravan for a few days while they move on

Triaxx
2008-01-06, 08:08 PM
Try summoning a water elemental, and asking it to reshape a lake around your caravan. Turn that to ice, and then you have a temporary shelter.

Or you could summon a water/air elemental, and ask it to seek out the person casting control weather.

What level is the Sorceror? Do they have a flying familiar? If so and it can use share spells, try share spell (Detect magic) The familiar can then go out and search out the target for you to attack.

Any intelligent monsters around? Kobolds? I had a similar problem, and had the bard and paladin go convince the local shaman to help me find, and swarm the opposing druid.

If you guess he's hiding nearby, but can't see him, use Know Alignment. Either in a scroll or wand. Attack anything with an alignment that stands out markedly. Neutral Evil fuzzy bunnies are a dead give-away.

martyboy74
2008-01-06, 08:27 PM
How fast does that caravan move? If you could create an undergrund tunnel fast enough you could completely avoid that weather.

I think that Ankheg's create a useable tunnel the fastest (10'/round), but someone else knows probably knows better than I.

martyboy74
2008-01-06, 08:28 PM
How fast does that caravan move? If you could create an undergrund tunnel fast enough you could completely avoid that weather.

I think that Ankhegs and Badgers create useable tunnels the fastest (10'/round), but someone else knows probably knows better than I.

Jack_Simth
2008-01-06, 09:01 PM
Simple? I don't think so. Since the caravan is supposed to be moving, the enemy caster (likely a Druid) will probably be moving to stay ahead and keep us in the controlled weather. Trying to find the center of a moving area from miles away isn't simple. If it is a Druid, the caster could be in any number of innocuous shapes (I'd guess blending into a flock of indigenous birds, or a large grazing herd; but it could even be a fish in a stream). Simple? :annoyed:
Oh, right - you'll want Arcane Sight for narrowing down the exact spot once you've got it narrowed down a bit. A Druid, though, is fairly easy to flush out - start a forest fire. Anything that doesn't start running or burning is a target.

SilentNight
2008-01-06, 09:07 PM
Oh, right - you'll want Arcane Sight for narrowing down the exact spot once you've got it narrowed down a bit. A Druid, though, is fairly easy to flush out - start a forest fire. Anything that doesn't start running or burning is a target.

Not all druids are forrest freaks. Short of Global Warming(Sandstorm)
There's not a sure-fire way to stop it that I can think of.

Signmaker
2008-01-06, 09:07 PM
Forest fires don't usually work too well. Especially when it might accidentally burn, oh, the caravan you were supposed to protect?

Jack_Simth
2008-01-06, 09:18 PM
Not all druids are forrest freaks. Short of Global Warming(Sandstorm)
There's not a sure-fire way to stop it that I can think of.

Arcane Sight, 120 foot range, instantly gives you location of all magical auras. Wildshape is Su, and therefore magical. Even if, for some odd reason, your DM decides active Su abilities don't register, there's still all those nifty buff spells.

And the point of burning the forest to cinders isn't to get the Druid mad at you - it's to drive everything else out of the area. Anything that survives the forest fire and holds it's ground is a target.

Signmakerens:
You noticed my two listed methods for getting the caravan out of harm's way both involved nonflammable barriers (ground, wall of stone), right?

Curmudgeon
2008-01-06, 09:20 PM
Lots of questions. Let's see if I can answer them all based on the scenario information I've gotten from the DM.

We don't know the resources of the enemy forces, except that they're opposed to this caravan of homesteaders attempting to settle in an unclaimed valley in the wilderness. Based on some hints we think there's a Druid who's opposed to this "despoiling of nature", and who has some allies (maybe just in it to steal from the caravan).

As this is uninhabited territory there shouldn't be any locals, but we might run across the occasional hunters or travelers.

A big caravan, trying to move through open country for smoother going, is pretty much impossible to hide; it stretches out a good half mile in single file. With decent weather we should make about 14 miles a day; with bad weather we might be lucky to make 8 miles. The caravan has a single Decanter of Endless Water, so we're set in that regard as we move through dry plains and the occasional scrub wood. They've got a good supply of dry food. (The Decanter is supposed to be our payment for getting them to their destination safely. They shouldn't need it when they settle around a river.)

The Sorcerer is level 13, and has a Rat familiar.

I don't see how a burrowing animal could help us, and I don't see Ankheg on the lists for any Summon spells. Anyway, with big covered wagons with barrels and whatnot hanging off them we'd need a tunnel 20' wide with a flat floor. Plus I don't think any of the draft horses would like being underground, and we don't have anybody with a great (or any) Handle Animal skill. Besides the horses there are some sheep and goats, and chickens (who are supposed to stay in their coops).

As for summoning air or water elementals, I'm unaware of any special abilities for them that could distinguish between normal and magical weather, or detect magic of any kind. Plus they're not very smart, and (up until Elder size) have poorer Spot checks than the PCs.

I don't think Know Alignment is a spell in 3.5. I'm pretty sure that went away.

Curmudgeon
2008-01-06, 09:32 PM
Arcane Sight, 120 foot range, instantly gives you location of all magical auras. How are we supposed to get within 120' of something when we don't know what to look for, and it could affect us from 3 miles away (or 6 miles with Widen Spell/Sudden Widen)?

And the point of burning the forest to cinders isn't to get the Druid mad at you - it's to drive everything else out of the area. Anything that survives the forest fire and holds it's ground is a target. We don't have any forests. It's mostly rolling dry prairie until we reach the destination valley. And we don't have nearly enough magic to protect the whole caravan (wooden & canvas wagons + fire = bad idea, especially when we're up against an enemy who can and would turn the winds against us). Plus our Cleric would likely smite the rest of the party if we tried that, anyway.

LibraryOgre
2008-01-06, 10:11 PM
Counter magic is your best option to actually fight it magically... not counterspelling, but casting spells which will be opposite in effect. The area of effect on Control Weather is simply so large that you won't be able to reasonably search it, especially if you have to kill every creature in the area.
Other than Control Weather, most of the spells aren't going to be terribly useful to you. "Leomund's Tiny Hut" is going to be useful for keeping people and material healthy... but it's small, so you won't be able to make one for everyone.

Essentially, you're going to need at least one scroll of Control Weather, which will run you 2275gp. Is the caravan carrying something worth that?

Curmudgeon
2008-01-06, 10:35 PM
I think buying any scrolls of Control Weather would be money thrown away.

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths

In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.

A druid casting this spell doubles the duration and affects a circle with a 3-mile radius. The Druid's caster level is unknown, so buying a scroll is iffy just by caster level. But the Druid version of the spell controls 2.25 times as much area as the other versions (or 9 times as much with Widen), so I'd say that's much stronger at the same caster level and would nullify anything from the Sorcerer or Cleric.

BRC
2008-01-06, 10:37 PM
Well, in that case I think that you'll just have to endure constant thunderstorms for abit, it could be worse, and even with control weather the thunderstorms can last only so long before all the clouds in the area are rained out, especially if the druid wants it to be heavy enough to really impede your progress and is going 24/7.

LibraryOgre
2008-01-06, 10:51 PM
I think buying any scrolls of Control Weather would be money thrown away.

The Druid's caster level is unknown, so buying a scroll is iffy just by caster level. But the Druid version of the spell controls 2.25 times as much area as the other versions (or 9 times as much with Widen), so I'd say that's much stronger at the same caster level and would nullify anything from the Sorcerer or Cleric.

True. I'd rule it as being countermagic (like casting chill metal on something someone has cast heat metal on), but the RAW does say differently.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-01-06, 10:55 PM
If I may be so bold as to sugges Endure Elements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/endureElements.htm)? 1st level spell. Duration of 24 hours. Not affected by hot/cold weather.

The trick here is to find a way to Reach/Chain it so it hits multiple secondary targets, to affect a good portion of the caravan at once.

Also

Depending on how many casters you got...

Leomund's Tiny Hut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/tinyHut.htm) makes for wonderful tents.

But the simplest way is to have your own fellows cast Control Weather to control it right back to balmy and pleasant weather.

Curmudgeon
2008-01-06, 11:07 PM
Well, in that case I think that you'll just have to endure constant thunderstorms for abit, it could be worse Yes, it could be much worse: with Cold Snap to drop the temperature to -20 degrees, have all that rain turn to hail, and freeze wagon wheels in their ruts.

That's my biggest concern. If it really is a Druid, then Cold Snap is 2 levels lower than Control Weather. We could get hit by multiple castings per day -- enough to last through all our daylight hours. With wild shape and Camouflage, only great luck on our side will let us locate this enemy. I don't take it as a given that we'll be able to find him/her.

That's why I'm really looking for alternatives to Control Weather to heat things up/dry things out.

SilentNight
2008-01-06, 11:10 PM
Do you know the druid's name? You could use locate creature.

Curmudgeon
2008-01-06, 11:34 PM
Do you know the druid's name? You could use locate creature. Hey, we don't even know that it is a Druid; that's just our suspicion. We've never seen any of the enemies (to our knowledge).

SilentNight
2008-01-06, 11:36 PM
My bad. You could try a series of divinations but that's just a shot in the dark.

LibraryOgre
2008-01-07, 12:45 AM
Wand of Fireball. You're pretty much in a situation where a druid (or other full spellcaster who can control the weather) can do whatever he likes and you can do nothing about it. Hope your DM provides you some useful clues, or get used to sleeping cold and wet.

TheOOB
2008-01-07, 01:19 AM
If a sufficiently high enough druid wants to use magic to stop of a bunch of low level NPCs, and you don't have equivalent magic to match, your best option is combat. You might be able to find the epicenter of the effect and dispel it, but if the journey will take awhile the druid might bring that magic to bear more times then your caravan will handle. As mentioned above, using arcane sight is a good method to find the druid, as is just delving into the general area of the epicenter and looking, most DMs would be loathe to miss a good opportunity for a dramatic encounter between the PCs and a villain.

That said, the best way is perhaps to find out exact ally why the druid wants to stop the caravan, and work to rectify it.

Magnor Criol
2008-01-07, 02:14 AM
That said, the best way is perhaps to find out exact ally why the druid wants to stop the caravan, and work to rectify it.

Curmudgeon's already covered that; the villain is opposing the caravan because it's moving into unspoiled wilderness area and pitting a city there. There's no real way to rectify that; it's pretty much an either/or situation (either they're there, or they're not).

I suppose you could try and contact the druid and see if there's any way you could get him to agree that if the settlers pledge to live as nature-minded as possible, that he'd leave them alone...but that's a long shot for many reasons, not the least of which being it essentially yanks the entire system of planned battles the DM likely had prepared out and throws them away like so much litter.



For a bit of a thinking-outside-the-box solution. How much time do you have before the caravan leaves, and from where is it leaving (as in, what size city)?

Pending appropriate time and resources, get the party rogue (or whoever has the best Gather Info, Diplomacy, and perhaps Intimidate checks) to try and figure out who's behind all of this; if it is a druid, it seems likely that they don't have enough street-sense to cover their tracks exceptionally well.

Or else rustle up some locals. Get them to start fanning wide through the area you're traveling through and see if they can spot anything suspicious. You're not asking them to face combat, mind you, just attempting to use their numerous eyes and ears to scout out and try and find any of these weathercrafting baddies, to give you an idea of what to look for or where to start looking for them if the time comes.

Icewalker
2008-01-07, 02:42 AM
Or else rustle up some locals. Get them to start fanning wide through the area you're traveling through and see if they can spot anything suspicious. You're not asking them to face combat, mind you, just attempting to use their numerous eyes and ears to scout out and try and find any of these weathercrafting baddies, to give you an idea of what to look for or where to start looking for them if the time comes.

This has also been addressed. The druid could quite easily be hanging out in animal form among the other animals. Nothing special there.


This is an interesting dilemma, and not being a massive source of 3.5 rules and abilities myself I cannot provide you with an immediate answer. But this thread has taught me something: if somebody is asking for advice, and you have some to give, read the rest of the thread! So many people are suggesting already refuted things. :smallyuk:

Admiral Squish
2008-01-07, 03:11 AM
Reccomended course of action:
Step one: Bend.
Step two: Lean.
Step three: Kiss arse goodbye.

Two interesting ideas: Animal messenger/explosive runes somewhere along the path, where the druid likely is. Have the caravan pass it, make sure none of them read the note, and let the druid find it. If he finds it, boom, he'll get pissed, probably kill the critter in the blast, too. Druid now becomes angry. If he doesn't, two spell slots down.

Conveniently placed mental alarms. Cast it on tree or animal you have previously horribly maimed or disfigured, which would prompt the druid to approach or touch it, set off the alarms. You scry the thing you alarmed, find out what exactly you're fighting, then use this knowledge to cast locate person, track him down and KICK HIS SORRY HIPPIE RUMP.

mostlyharmful
2008-01-07, 05:48 AM
With a druid in his chosen habitat without any information on his habits or prefered forms the best chance you've got is probably to leave before the caravan and try to track him down without the hundreds of redshirts tagging along. Once you're in the area of the proposed settlement try sending up a signal fire with wet wood. Not to start a big blaze, just to get his attention. Hopefully the DM will be nice and have the druid respond, either by talking or attacking but whatever, once you have them in frount of you you can deal with it either with violence or diplomacy (actual diplomacy hopefully not the borked skill:smallsmile: ). With a druid just running around annonimously you're completely screwed, they could be anything, plant, animal or person, they could be hundreds of feet in the air or gliding along underground..... no chance.:smallfrown:

DeathEatsCurry
2008-01-07, 06:29 AM
How about using any form of Illusion magic to simply "fake" a caravan (Operation Trojan Jackass) to more or less lure the druid out, and then make the actual caravan take a detour? Since Control Weather has a long range, and Druid are annoying to find it's a bit of a problem though...

Or you could set fire to the surrounding nature at night, 50% chance the Druids gets caught up in the blaze (And most of you party are urban type characters so I'm guessing they don't care). Even if the Druid DOESN'T burn, he'll at least try to put out the fire (A proper Druid should prioritize saving nature over raining sleet down on caravans, I'd say).

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-07, 07:10 AM
Oh, but there is a way to put an end to all magic affecting you, which has a duration.

Iron Heart Surge.

:smallbiggrin:

Curmudgeon
2008-01-07, 01:04 PM
Oh, but there is a way to put an end to all magic affecting you, which has a duration.

Iron Heart Surge.

:smallbiggrin: Great. So the precipitation stops on me, but the rest of the caravan is still suffering. That will really make me popular. :smallmad:

Adumbration
2008-01-07, 01:11 PM
If I remember correct, the wording on the spell/whatever contributes to the fact that it stops any aoe spell in power.

Triaxx
2008-01-07, 01:25 PM
Try this then: Polymorph with Share spells, and turn the rat into something that flies. Doesn't particularly matter what. Have him go up with Arcane sight/detect magic, and find the druid. This works better if they're just about to cast. (Pray the druid has no natural spell. Yeah right.:smalltongue: ) Use scry on familiar to locate the druid.

Or the rat could use it's... contacts to find out about unusual creatures running around. Rodents are everywhere.

On mostly harmfuls note, the druid might well be travelling with the party, as one of the horses. Add natural spell, and that could be very, very ugly. :smallbiggrin: I'll have to remember that.

mostlyharmful
2008-01-07, 01:32 PM
On a side note why does everyone seem to find wildfires something abhorently unnatural that all druids must try to stop? Ok, if they're started by PCs they tend to be more common than those started by lightning or hot, dry conditions it's still part of the natural balence in any environment where wildfires can be started or grow to any significant size. Heck, could be a druid starts wildfires all the time to speed up ecological renewal in areas effected by human actions (and yes this seems to draw an artifical line between "human" and "natural" aswel but there you go:smallredface: )

Brawls
2008-01-07, 01:32 PM
Oh, but there is a way to put an end to all magic affecting you, which has a duration.

Iron Heart Surge.

:smallbiggrin:

Though it is utterly silly, I was going to suggest this as well.

Brawls

BRC
2008-01-07, 05:35 PM
I just looked over the spell description and realized that finding the druid might not be as difficult as you think. You just need a way of determining the limits of it's effects, the spell is centered on the druid, who, for the purposes of this has summoned a thunderstorm, since the thunderstorm is summoned by the spell it should be roughly circular, find out it's general shape and search around the middle. It's not a perfect plan, but it's somthing.

Curmudgeon
2008-01-07, 06:51 PM
If I remember correct, the wording on the spell/whatever contributes to the fact that it stops any aoe spell in power. Maybe; maybe not:
... select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. There are some options in how to interpret this:
The part of the spell affecting the person with Iron Heart Surge ends.
Only effects with durations listed in rounds can be ended; those with durations in minutes, hours, or days cannot be.
I was only half serious when I posted my previous retort; it's amusing to think of a Swordsage running around, stopping the rain one 5' square at a time. But I've seen a lot of DMs who take the "duration in rounds" approach to limiting the power of Iron Heart Surge.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-01-07, 07:08 PM
Great. So the precipitation stops on me, but the rest of the caravan is still suffering. That will really make me popular. :smallmad:

Oh no. The IHS brings the whole thing down, thanks to the poor editing skills of WotC. :smallbiggrin:

Curmudgeon
2008-01-07, 07:12 PM
You just need a way of determining the limits of it's effects, the spell is centered on the druid, who, for the purposes of this has summoned a thunderstorm, since the thunderstorm is summoned by the spell it should be roughly circular, find out it's general shape and search around the middle. It's not a perfect plan, but it's somthing. It's already been mentioned, too.

First, there's the basic math involved in determining the equations. Because this doesn't seem to be a problem that's routinely addressed in D&D, I'd put it at a Knowledge: Arcana DC of at least 20, and more like 30, to figure that out.

Then there's the basic problem of needing accurate measurement. In a wilderness area maps are going to be rudimentary. So we'd need a way of devising an accurate coordinate system on the fly.

Of course the Druid will keep moving, so we'd need to make all three edge point measurements simultaneously, get the information together and do the math rapidly, and send a strike force to the computed center immediately. Since there's a 10-minute lag before any weather changes manifest there's a lot of guaranteed delay before we could possibly get to where the Druid was.

When we get there, of course the Druid could look like almost anything. Most magical detections won't work past 120'. I'd be surprised if we could get that close to the center of a 12 mile circle even with GPS coordinates for the circumference points.

Now, that's just the solution if the Druid is keeping the weather the same, and there are no other forces at work. A decent breeze could easily distort the circle. Or maybe there's some naturally-occuring rain off to one side. Worse case: the Druid is varying the weather as he/she flies in a zig-zag path and the 10-minute lag before the variations appear will make the area anything but a circle. Worst case: there's natural weather contributing, and there's another caster also mucking with the weather.

This isn't simple.

BRC
2008-01-07, 07:28 PM
This isn't simple.
Who said anything about It being simple, or even needing to be exact. the center thing is just a way of narrowing down the search area. If the druid moves then you still know where they roughly are. Also, remember that if this is a total-wilderness druid they proably don't have a way to scry your location, which means they need a way of keeping an eye on the caravan so you can't head back for a day or switch routes to lose them. If you can cast Detect Scrying do so, and keep an eye out for anything that looks like an observer, the most likely thing is that the druid is using their animal companion to keep an eye on you, so if you notice a certain animal that seems to be stalking you then you have a lead. I kinda doubt your DM would put you in a no-win situation like this if he didn't have a way out. tell the entire caravan to keep an eye out for an animal that seems to be following them. 200 NPC's is alot of spot checks, so I wouldn't call it unlikely that one of them notices an owl that seems to be following you. If this druid is against "Despoiling nature" he won't go to heavy on the control weather anyway, as constant thunderstorms and sleet wouldn't be so good for the area, especially since it's dry plains which are likely to flood, animals are likely to freeze ect. What I find more likely is that if the druid uses weather magic they will wait until the caravan is most vulernable, then use the cold snap and send in allies to finish you off.

Jack_Simth
2008-01-07, 07:47 PM
How are we supposed to get within 120' of something when we don't know what to look for, and it could affect us from 3 miles away (or 6 miles with Widen Spell/Sudden Widen)?

That's what checking the perimeter is for. Really, the only one you actually need to convince it'll work is the DM - and the DM will be looking for ways to make it work that seem reasonable. If there aren't things actively interfering with checking the perimeter (e.g., zig-zagging control-weather Druid). You can draw out on a bit of paper how to find the center of a radius - this isn't going to be a hard sell unless the DM is railroading you in a particular direction.

We don't have any forests. It's mostly rolling dry prairie until we reach the destination valley.
Even better - a prairie fire is a lot thinner than is a forest fire. You've got a shorter period of exposure.

And we don't have nearly enough magic to protect the whole caravan (wooden & canvas wagons + fire = bad idea, especially when we're up against an enemy who can and would turn the winds against us).
So get a Wand of Wall of Ice (yeah, it's pricey at 21,000 gp - but as I said; playing defense is a losing game, you're not going to get out of this aspect - fifty charges at the maximum length gets you 3,500 feet of perimeter to play with - circle the wagons, and you can fit everyone in a circle that size without too much trouble) and find someone in the caravan able and responsible enough to use it as a fire break when the need arises.

Plus our Cleric would likely smite the rest of the party if we tried that, anyway.
Ah, so those little woodland critters are worth more than the caravan you're protecting? If the Druid starts throwing such tactics at you, this is basically your only out - as defense is a losing game. The Druid has a lot of really nasty things he can pull - Control Weather up a storm, turn into something seemingly harmless, and trigger a zillion Call Lightning and Call Lightning Storm's into the caravan. As it's a 3rd/5th level spell that gets caster level zaps of 3d10/5d10 each (due to the storm), it's very quickly a case of no more NPC's.

Fundamentally, without rather drastic measures, you're in an impossible position against an opponent who knows how to slaughter the caravan. Do something that sounds like it has a reasonable chance of working, and trust your DM.

Yami
2008-01-07, 09:18 PM
If I may post my own response to this conundrum?

Gear up for combat and take your caravan into the wilds as per usual. I really doubt you'll be finding a druid in the wild unless he wants to be found. You should inform the npc's that they may have bear some discomfort, but that'll you'll be finding a permanent solution to thier problems. It's important to maintain high moral amongst the plebes.

Then you steal the bloody decanter. If these guys are such wimps that they can't take care of the druid, chances are they wont stop you either. If you can I'd suggest making the heist during one of the expected torrents of rain, as everyone willl be too busy being miserable and wondering when you'll save them to protect their precious.

Of course if you make a break for it when the weathers better you can burn the caravan as a peace offering to the druid, so it's really your call.

Another thing you might need to worry about is your reputation. Dependant on circumstances you might want to team up with the druid to ensure that the caravan is never heard from again. Cleaning up after yourself is an important part of being the good guys.

Magnor Criol
2008-01-07, 10:48 PM
This has also been addressed. The druid could quite easily be hanging out in animal form among the other animals. Nothing special there.


This is an interesting dilemma, and not being a massive source of 3.5 rules and abilities myself I cannot provide you with an immediate answer. But this thread has taught me something: if somebody is asking for advice, and you have some to give, read the rest of the thread! So many people are suggesting already refuted things. :smallyuk:

Well, the druid's not alone, though. And though the druid him/herself may well be hidden in animal form, if he has allies, they might not be. Said information net could chance upon a conclave or two of these guys, and report such findings. The PCs then could try and assault these conclaves, in the hopes that the druid would show up to assist his allies. If not, at least you've taken out some of the enemies.

The NPCs know that they're not likely to actually find the druid. Their purpose is to search through the forest in a way that the PCs can't, and report anything that could lead the PCs to finding the rogue druid.

Come to think of it, a good supply of sending spells, or some similar spell that allows quick and far-reaching communication, would be quite helpful here.

Triaxx
2008-01-08, 08:45 PM
There is one other trick that might do it. Acquire a scroll of contingency. Set it so that when Control Weather is cast within 10 miles of your current position, Time Stop is cast, affecting only your party.

Why does this help? Because if it goes off, you know you have ten minutes to find shelter for the caravan. Order the NPCs to abandon the wagons and take shelter. The PC's should hide near by, either in magical concealment, or just using hide. The Druid's Allies should come to destroy the Caravan. You may not be able to stop the druid directly, but you can certainly kill his pals.

On the other hand, the druid might use a rainstorm, followed by Cold Snap, then a small summoned animal to destroy wagon wheels. That could get nasty, leaving you unable to circle, or even retreat.

And yes, fighting forest fires is a human failing. They are very natural themselves. Now, using the forest fire to wipe out the caravan... that's a very druid thing to do.

Collin152
2008-01-08, 09:13 PM
There is one other trick that might do it. Acquire a scroll of contingency. Set it so that when Control Weather is cast within 10 miles of your current position, Time Stop is cast, affecting only your party.

Why does this help? Because if it goes off, you know you have ten minutes to find shelter for the caravan. Order the NPCs to abandon the wagons and take shelter. The PC's should hide near by, either in magical concealment, or just using hide. The Druid's Allies should come to destroy the Caravan. You may not be able to stop the druid directly, but you can certainly kill his pals.

On the other hand, the druid might use a rainstorm, followed by Cold Snap, then a small summoned animal to destroy wagon wheels. That could get nasty, leaving you unable to circle, or even retreat.

And yes, fighting forest fires is a human failing. They are very natural themselves. Now, using the forest fire to wipe out the caravan... that's a very druid thing to do.

So, they need a scroll for contingency, but they can cast timestop on their own...?
if that powerful of magic is permissable, than anybody with higher level divination spells wins.

Thanatos 51-50
2008-01-08, 09:31 PM
You can call forth weather appropriate to the climate and season of the area you are in.

You're moving through the plains? In what season? Even in summer, your biggest problem is a tornado, which the Druid, himself cannot control.
Keep trucking, a few CBs mysteriously following the party are surely nothing for a band of tough adventurers and a bunch of pioneer NPCs.

Yahzi
2008-01-08, 11:55 PM
Playing defense is a losing game
Especially in D&D, which has a spell list specifically designed to overcome static defenses.

Hunt down the enemy and kill 'em: that's really the only thing D&D allows, because its the only thing considered fun.

Triaxx
2008-01-09, 08:56 AM
I keep forgetting that we allow scroll casting to contingencies. *bangs head*

Then you're screwed. Just tell the DM to take his caravan and shove it somewhere painful.

Curmudgeon
2008-01-09, 07:30 PM
You're moving through the plains? In what season? It's late winter/early spring, so the settlers can plow fields and plant crops. (And yes, I know that this makes for the nastiest options for Control Weather.)

Collin152
2008-01-09, 08:27 PM
Clearly, the only solution is to change the season. Or possibly the terrain.
Y'know, fire really restores nutrients to the soil...
Would control winds help? You could blow the storm away. Or something.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-09, 08:56 PM
Hire a first-level dragonfire adept (Dragon Magic), and have them cast endure exposure (Dragon Magic) on everything. Next, get a couple scrolls of anticold sphere (Spell Compendium)--or learn it, if you can. Lastly, get some way of casting a large quantity of snowshoes (Spell Compendium) spells. Now you'll just be miserable instead of dead.

Necromas
2008-01-09, 10:34 PM
A. Find a way to kill the druid or otherwise prevent him from casting the spell, buy scrolls with divination or transport spells if you have to.

or

B. Buy 1 or more scrolls of control weather ("Control weather can do away with atmospheric phenomena (naturally occurring or otherwise) as well as create them.") if you have someone in your party which has the spell on their list, which you should since clerics get it, and use that. Hope that you have more scrolls than the number of slots the druid prepared the spell in.

Curmudgeon
2008-01-10, 03:25 AM
B. Buy 1 or more scrolls of control weather ("Control weather can do away with atmospheric phenomena (naturally occurring or otherwise) as well as create them.") if you have someone in your party which has the spell on their list, which you should since clerics get it, and use that. Hope that you have more scrolls than the number of slots the druid prepared the spell in. I'm getting tired of people jumping in without reading the previous posts, but I'll try this one more time.

A Druid controls 2.25 times as much weather as a Cleric or Sorcerer normally (3 mile radius versus only 2 miles).
Stacking Effects

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths

In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. If the Druid is at the same caster level, their Control Weather is 2.25 times as strong. If the Druid uses Widen Spell or Sudden Widen the resulting 12 mile circle will be 9 times as strong as what a Cleric or Wizard at the same caster level can produce.

The next point is that we don't know the class level of this unknown Druid, other than it's 13+ to be able to cast Control Weather at all, and that's more than our Sorcerer 13 or Cleric 12 (with a +1 LA race) can do. He or she could also be using spells, magic items, or feats to create a higher caster level to make his/her magic harder to counter. An Ankh of Ascension isn't too expensive and can boost a divine caster's spells by +4 CL, but won't help anyone casting from a scroll.

Also the Druid's Control Weather lasts twice as long, meaning he/she only needs to cast it every couple of days. No matter how many scrolls we buy (assuming we can't buy scrolls scribed at level 30+) we're not going to be able to create a stronger effect.

Talic
2008-01-10, 03:50 AM
First, here's the harshest solution thus offered.

Pry the Decanter of Endless Water from the corpses of the frozen, dead caravan. Keep endure elements on yourself, live comfortable in the fact that the druid has caused more damage to nature than the caravan ever would, in terms of dead vegetation, animal life, and the like.

Yami
2008-01-10, 04:11 AM
I take it then you skipped my suggestion, which kept the party warmer, as they wouldn't have to wait for the cold to get the caravan. Unless you consider intentionally failing you duty and then looting the remains as harsher than renegading on your mission and backstabbing your employer.

In which case I would have to question your morals.

Talic
2008-01-10, 04:30 AM
I take it then you skipped my suggestion, which kept the party warmer, as they wouldn't have to wait for the cold to get the caravan. Unless you consider intentionally failing you duty and then looting the remains as harsher than renegading on your mission and backstabbing your employer.

In which case I would have to question your morals.

Well, I did skip it. Didn't see it at all, actually. However, one could suggest that agreeing to a mission with no intention of fulfilling it as essentially the same thing as renegading. I mean, after all, it's still backstabbing, albeit with less work.

The slight discomfort of cold (even protected by endure elements) is only to maintain positive sight of the Decanter, which is really the primary objective all along. Oh, sure, you can even make everyone feel better about it... *Illusion to make yourself seem as frostbitten as the rest of the fools* "Oh, I'm sorry, Bob the townsman... I had no idea it would be like this. It's just too much... It's a shame we all had to die out here... But hey, we tried, ri... He's dead? Ok, grab the stuff, let's go." After all, Speak with Dead can backfire too easily, right?

BlackMage2549
2008-01-10, 04:36 AM
Does Iron Heart Surge break effects that don't target you?

Or am I incorrect in assuming that "Control Weather" targets and affects the weather, which then affects you completely independant of the spell. And doesn't "Cold Snap" affect the temperature in the same way?

Personally, I'd merely tell the caravan to prepare for the possibility of interference, and to bring supplies and people for such. Druid breaks your wagon? Repair it with NPC Experts.

Also, a few Field Provision Boxes(MIC) could easily remove the worry about food/water.

Int -1
2008-01-10, 09:58 AM
Dnd is a game of trying to defeat whatever the DM throws at you. And I like this one. It is about using your brains for a while, instead of the kick-in-door kind of play.
I would suggest you try to find out what exactly is the problem of the druid and his group. Is there something valuable? Someone valuable? If not, it will be a fight to the end; because someone doesn't want you there. Why not? That could be interesting. But that is another story.
Judging from your assessment of the relative power of the druid and your party I think you will have to suck up to the tunderstorms, rain, hail and freezing conditions.
I don't think the Druid's buddies are going to attack at the first Weather Control and Cold snaps, and the rest. After this first day, start making a lot of Illusions, both magic and mundane. Try to erase your footprints, car tracks etc. Flush out the surroundings with a search and conjure a plan about how to organise a defense when the next cold snap, weathercontrol happens. That might defeat some bandits, but is unlikely to catch the druid.

Try to divide the attention of the druid. Split the columns into multiple columns which travel in different directions and speeds. Make a round with your party and conjure small fires everywhere, so there is a lot of visible stimula, the Druid is unable to give all columns attention, so that is a big win. Although you will have to test this; your actieradius is in those conditions not very big, so defending every column is not possible if they are to far away. It could be a way to see how the druid behaves. This would require speed and information, so messenger spells are vital.

Raise the whiteflag? Shoot every creature that is unidentified. Is the druid hiding in the column? How does the druid decern your location?
Because the column isn't moving that fast, the druid is likely to be pretty close. It will be hard though.

LibraryOgre
2008-01-11, 12:32 AM
Draw attention away from the caravan. They go southwest, you go northwest, burning, poisoning, and killing. Make the druid come to you.

Hire another druid to protect the caravan, then advise the settlers on good practices when they get where they're going. If he's halfway intelligent, he'll see the advantage in being in on the ground floor of designing a growing settlement, as opposed to trying to fight its growth.

Pick a god with control over the weather. Start offering large sacrifices to him to make him shut the druid down.

Really, you're not going to be able to use conventional tactics to beat a druid at weathercasting. So, get unconventional.

Yami
2008-01-11, 04:16 AM
Ah ha! My good Talic, I see you have your bases covered. More thurough than my idea.

I must admit your plan wins, and thusly must suggest it as the proper course of action despit the inherent appeal behind a good blood letting. Ah the things we must do to maintain a good facade.

FaustianFeste
2008-01-11, 06:40 AM
Um....Perhaps I just don't know what I'm talking about, but I might be able to help you somewhat.

One of your main concerns, if I read you correctly, is that your wagon wheels may get stuck, right? Well....Prestidigitation is a 0th level spell....And it can probably, at worst, either warm up/solidify the muck for your caravan to pass through, at least for an hour. i mean, you may have to ask your DM if that use of the spell's allowed, but if it can heat up 1 lb of nonliving material (frozen mud) or make something small and fragile (kitty litter, or the equivalent for getting wagon wheels to be able to go along in icy conditions).

So, buy a few (dozen, at worst) wands, and start casting along the caravan's path whenever the going gets tough.

Might help, at least.


Edit:
And as for the sleet problem, just tell the NPCs to pack for cold weather. Toss some extra blankets on the horses, etc. I mean, if the people of the US's Western frontier can survive a sleet storm on a wagon train without magic, why couldn't some hardy colonist NPCs?

Talic
2008-01-11, 06:43 AM
Ah ha! My good Talic, I see you have your bases covered. More thurough than my idea.

I must admit your plan wins, and thusly must suggest it as the proper course of action despit the inherent appeal behind a good blood letting. Ah the things we must do to maintain a good facade.

The best way to hide a truly heartless character is behind the facade of a charitable cause, and a plethora of illusion magic.

As for bloodletting... I find that tricking people is more satisfying than killing people... But doing both? That's art.

Triaxx
2008-01-11, 03:44 PM
Better still if you can trick them into killing themselves, or ending up in bad position.

Collin152
2008-01-11, 08:48 PM
Well, the druid has to die eventually anyways, seeing how he'll just keep harassing the people once they've settled, so I think the course of action is clear: Disguise the people as woodland creatures, and have them hide for the rest of eternity.

kme
2008-01-12, 07:44 PM
You can also buy a scroll of teleportation circle (or two) and simply teleport a whole caravan wherever you wish. But this tactic may invoke DM's wrath.

Thanatos 51-50
2008-01-12, 08:09 PM
It's late winter/early spring, so the settlers can plow fields and plant crops. (And yes, I know that this makes for the nastiest options for Control Weather.)

I like the Control Winds idea, especially if your DM lets you control the UPPER LEVEL winds (read, upper-level troughs).

Also, consider the following: Your basic source of all "bad weather" is Cumulonimbus clouds. If you can find a way to jackup the pressure, high pressure is non-condusive to CB formation.

Loonook
2008-01-12, 08:35 PM
1.) Send through a false caravan. Small enough to control, but effectively camo'd as a possible target. Make sure those in the caravan have endure elements and similar effects placed upon them. Tell the caravan group that you will take supplies forward to the location, and maintain their current position if it is in a city or settlement of some sort. Make sure you have someone here as a protector, equipped with a way to contact those in the caravan and the messengers (see below).

2.) Ride a 'messenger' ahead and behind the caravan. Have them bear appropriate fealty and colors abroad, and make it seem as if they are there to do something or other. These individuals should hopefully be party members who can deal with the issues placed before them by the druid and his involvement. Messengers should have a way to contact twixt and tween themselves, as they will be serving as spotters.

3.) Have another party member riding along with the messenger in some capacity. You figure out the method; they shouldn't be visible as such to the naked eye. Maintain a healthy distance, as you have deemed appropriate for the task at hand, between 'caravan' and 'messenger'. This distance should be the distance a normal Control Weather cast by a target would be (use your knowledge on that one).

4.) As soon as the effect is observed, make notation of location of the weather effect. As it is unnatural, you can assume being on the periphery of the spell that you have a certain amount of distance to cover. Now, based on the locations of the individual groupings, you should be able to ascertain a rough coverage area by who is being hit by the weather phenomenon vs. who is currently in calm, smooth land. Ride it if you can; hopefully your endure elements isn't in too bad of shape at this point.

5.) Using your current locations, pinpoint a swath which could be the druid's location in reference to your present location.

6.) Place the 'caravan' as it needs to be placed. Ride or teleport yourselves back as available (and if possible). Leave behind an invitation to parley with the Druid on neutral ground, perhaps a location viewable from the settlement out of his forest but out of range. In the offering present your current series of terms.

7.) Erect a structure not to exceed 20*20 feet at the location. Make sure all is established. Have one of the following for the meet and greet:
7a.) Your party's warrior, rogue, the leader of the group, and friend.
7b.) Your party.
Either way, have a location 20' below the earthwork 5*15*7 into which you could place your people, heavily locked and protected, and lined with a thick wall of metal and stone (metal on the interior wall, worked stone exterior). Put a heavy, heavy door on top, with an opening seal of around the size of the Decanter's spout or just seal the pit a day in advance . . . depending on interpretations on rules, we may want the party mage inside.

8.) Pull a Edward the Longshanks a la Braveheart or Vlad Tepesh. Invite him, wine and dine him with your mage away. Have a few glasses of wine/mead/beer, what have you. Have your Rogue talk to him, once he has a few glasses in him, and discuss his options. Tell him you don't really like the fact, but you are willing to negotiate, da da da, get him to Friendly or Helpful. You don't need him to be an Ally, just friendly, non-threatening. If the rules are in your favor according to this side of the plan, have your party mage watching.

9.) On your last glass of delicious mead/beer/etc. slip the Rogue a nice, healthy dose of Glibness.

10.) Have the caravan and its members start out the city, bearing torches. Making a racket. Oh Hell, I was worried about this... I brought a safe-haven spell with me just in case this happened. I don't want either of us to have trouble... please, come with me, I'll deliver you to safety. If you're rogue has Bluff ranks, combined with his Glibness cocktail, you should be doing fine at this point... unless your DM wants to screw you over, he's going to look honest and prepared.

11.) Dimension Door yourself and your new buddy into the pit. If you have your caster down there, have them have prepped the action to dimension door you both out of the pit. You could also do this same subterfuge as soon as you have conned your way into his heart if your DM's definition of friendly works in your favor. There's a low-level spell which allows you to 'switch' positions with a friendly individual if necessary. It's quite a nifty spell to help you out, and if the mage is observing him by means mundane or magical, you definitely have the problems of distance and line-of-sight covered.

12.) Most creatures he can Wildshape into which would be effective in this situation will have a tough time (i.e. they're going to be in dire straits when it comes to burrowing out of a manmade structure, and a heavy door with a properly placed Wall of Something over it will make it even worse to lift/break). Now, place a Widened (if possible) or multiple Silence spells over the location. The Mage should target at ground level; the overlap of the two spheres, if done properly, wouldn't give him the room to cast his spells in the pit.

13.) Now, while you have him silenced down there, just touch that metal and chill or heat it. Make him work hard for his money. He's probably not going to be able to blast his way out just yet, and he'll have some time to think (of course, don't give it to him). If at all possible, pump water into the location using that Decanter on Geyser. If he attempts to wildshape and climb out, you're dealing with geyser force (at least strong rapids). If you can hold it long enough, you'll have him drowned like a rat in an hour or three.

Of course, this is highly convoluted. It's not foolproof. But if a Druid has prepared for ALL of these contingencies... well, he's a far more crafty man than I.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

FlyMolo
2008-01-12, 08:57 PM
Okay, let's get back to basics on this one. There's a weather-controlling thing out there, that's going to freeze your caravan to the ground. Short of grinning and bearing it, your options are tactical sneakiness and dispelling.

Yes, you can dispel it. The stacking rules don't cover dispelling. Darkness dispels light, despite the fact that if the two just encounter each other, one or the other might win. You can still use darkness to dispel light. Also, stronger is not necessarily more effective, and vice versa. The stacking rules in the SRD are designed to keep people from wearing a pair of gloves of dex and getting a huge bonus, not to prevent people from dispelling magical effects.

Tactical sneakiness is multiple columns, alternative means of transport(fly, etc.), and illusionary false caravans.

shadow_archmagi
2008-01-12, 08:58 PM
I really have to ask...

How is sleet so lethal? I've been outside before, it wasn't THAT bad. Not if I had, you know, a covered wagon with blankets and coats and such. Real danger is the lifestock and oxen freezing so you lose your wagons.

So what you need is a collapsable stables.

Murderous Hobo
2008-01-12, 09:08 PM
This thread reminds me off Hunting Chris Ryan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting_Chris_Ryan) because you'll basically have to go on a man hunt if you want to catch that druid.

Though this will be slightly easier, because there will be a 3 mile circle of bad weather in the sky to indicate his position and it should be quite easy to see if you're in the center of that bad weather.

So if you can get the Druid to use weather control -by using a decoy caravan- he'll essentially give his rough location away. It should then be easy to use magical means to search for it.

PaladinBoy
2008-01-12, 09:47 PM
I think what some people have said is the problem here is that if the druid continuously moves, it will be more difficult to use the 3-mile circle to extrapolate his position, particularly given that they don't have a weather satellite that can see the whole thing. That's probably correct, frankly.

What I don't see is why it's impossible to fight fire with fire. The spell itself is maddeningly silent on what happens when two people try to control the weather in the same area. I don't think the stacking rules are the appropriate answer to that question, though, since neither effect is strictly more powerful than the other. Yes, one is bigger and can stay up longer, and that would require more power, but that power doesn't necessarily make the control stronger. - just longer lasting and covering a wider area. The power used per unit area per second is the same for both spells, if you want to look at it that way, since the druid's spell is longer lasting and a wider area. I rule it as a caster level check, myself. Basically, I view it as a struggle to determine whose magic and control is stronger, hence the caster level check.