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Talya
2008-01-06, 09:54 PM
Rules:
The character must start with spontaneous casting, never branching into vancian. This means you can start sorceror. (I will allow a substitution of bard/sublime chord, if you think you can ramp it up to surpass a sorceror.)

Ability scores are irrelevant here. We'll assume an 18 charisma to start. Do we really care about the others?

Races, Feats, Spells, Prestige classes: Anything from WotC D20 3.5 publications compatible with the forgotten realms or eberron settings is acceptable.


See if you can rival batman.

Iku Rex
2008-01-06, 10:01 PM
What level?

Talya
2008-01-06, 10:01 PM
Since we're rivalling batman, build it up to 20, but keep it viable at every level as you go.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-06, 10:06 PM
Beguiler 20. He may not be as flexible long term, but he is far better than a wiz without time to prep for a specific situation, and he is able to take a few hits before dying, so he is more viable early on.

icthius
2008-01-06, 10:15 PM
Beguiler 20. He may not be as flexible long term, but he is far better than a wiz without time to prep for a specific situation, and he is able to take a few hits before dying, so he is more viable early on.

What makes a beguiler better than a sorcerer?

Jack_Simth
2008-01-06, 10:18 PM
Okay.

We get a Desert Kobold (UA environmental variant), give him two flaws (UA - pick something flavorful), and starting feats:
Arcane Preparation (as a requirement for a PrC, later on; Complete Arcane), Draconic Bloodline (extra spells known; Dragon Compendium and Dragon 311), and Cooperative Metamagic (as a requirement for a PrC later on; Complete Arcane).
Do the Draconic Rite of Passage (Races of the Dragon) as soon as you qualify, take some metamagic feat at 3rd (doesn't matter too much what) and go into the Mage of the Arcane Order PrC as soon as you can (qualify at 5th, to take the first level at 6th). Take Draconic Reservoir (Races of the Dragon Web Enhancement) at 6th, and go on the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (Races of the Dragon Web Enhancement - increases your Sorcerer spellcasting progression by one level). Take all ten levels of the Mage of the Arcane Order PrC (Complete Arcane; picking up two Spell Focus feats and Skill Focus(Spellcraft) along the way (or skip those three in favor of the requirements for your PrC of choice), then finish off with the Archmage PrC (or another, if you prefer).

Spells known: Take a generic batman daily list. Quicken spell is useful (you CAN prepare spells when you want), and Call any specific spell you need.

What do you get?
Well, after the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, you have spell access as a Wizar (4th level spells at 7th!). Thanks to the Mage of the Arcane Order spellpool, you can Call basically any PHB Sor/Wiz spell you could cast on a round's notice, essentially once per day. Archmage gets lots of nifties. And you get to be an open source spellcaster!

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-06, 10:20 PM
What makes a beguiler better than a sorcerer?
Combat ability. Wizards/sorcerers rarely get hit, but when they do, they usually die, and sorcerers won't have a clone waiting in the wings. Beguilers can survive.

SilentNight
2008-01-06, 10:22 PM
I don't know either. My group's power gamer loves their spell list but I don''t see the appeal. In my opinion they lack flexibility compared to the sorc.(yes, I see the irony) As for the build I'd go with sor4/ftr1/thorn knight 10/eldritch knight5. This gives you a caster who can wear mithril full-plate perfectly fine, has a CL18, a +15 BAB, some cool fear effects and the benefits of being a divinier without having to bar a school. The thorn knight is from Dragonlance if that is okay. If not then ftr1/sor4/eldritch knight10/archmage5

Jack_Simth
2008-01-06, 10:23 PM
Combat ability. Wizards/sorcerers rarely get hit, but when they do, they usually die, and sorcerers won't have a clone waiting in the wings. Beguilers can survive.
Mine can at 15th (it's a PHB Sor/Wiz spell)... and he doesn't even need a spellbook waiting for his clone to pick up (but he's going to need to pick up some cash, after, for a new focus).

Kristoss
2008-01-06, 10:31 PM
Dread Necromancer from Heroes of horror plus feats from Libris Mortes.
Choice Libres Mortes Feats:
Corpse crafter feats; Necromantic Might

Pros: d6 hd, light armor, undead army, large array of spells, DR + fortification, at will touch ability (does damage, heals undead, delivers contagion, delivers negative levels), control more undead, cha caster with rebuke undead, negative NRG burst.
Cons: limited spell variety

Chronicled
2008-01-06, 10:33 PM
Combat ability. Wizards/sorcerers rarely get hit, but when they do, they usually die, and sorcerers won't have a clone waiting in the wings. Beguilers can survive.

Um, no. A beguiler tends to be better not because of a d6 and light armor (which hardly matter after a while), but because they get:


6+Int skill points/level with a great list
Int based spellcasting (even more skills)
More spells per day than a sorcerer initially (both still cap at 6)
Way more spells known than a sorcerer
Access to a whole list of new spells as soon as they gain access to that level of spells (while a sorcerer gets... 1).
Free metamagic feats and other abilities


Even then, they give up access to a lot of nice spells in the sorcerer's list; while they can pick up Conjuration and Evocation spells through Expanded Learning and Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, they lose out on Necromancy, most Abjuration, and Transmutation spells. They're not that much better.

SurlySeraph
2008-01-06, 11:03 PM
How about a Sorceror who can out-Batman a Batman Wizard? Use the Bloodline feats (originally printed in Dragon Magazine, you can look them up here (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/featsform.pl)), which give you an extra spell known at each spell level.

I'll start with a human Sorcerer. He's got 8 feats, and takes:

Penumbra Bloodline (provides Obscuring mist, Darkness, Nondetection, Evard's black tentacles, Shadow evocation, Shadow walk, Plane shift, Greater shadow evocation, and Etherealness)

Serpent Bloodline (Cause fear, Hypnotic pattern, Sepia snake sigil, Phantasmal killer, Dominate person, Compulsion, Power word blind, Power word stun, and Power word kill)

Fire Bloodline (Hypnotism, Pyrotechnics, Tongues, Fire shield, Cloudkill, Summon monster VI, Delayed blast fireball, Sunburst, and Meteor swarm)

Water Bloodline (Expeditious retreat, Fog cloud, Water breathing, Quench, Transmute rock to mud, Otiluke's freezing sphere, Control weather, Summon monster VIII, and Elemental swarm),

Air Bloodline (Obscuring mist, Gust of wind, Wind wall, Shout, Telekinesis, Control winds, Ethereal jaunt, Summon monster VIII, and Freedom)

Anarchic Bloodline (Color spray, Tasha's hideous laughter, Rage, Confusion, Mindfog, Mislead, Prismatic spray, Maze, and Weird)

Aquatic Fey Bloodline (Charm person, Alter self, Water breathing, Charm monster, Mindfog, Control water, Control weather, Horrid wilting, and Shapechange)

EDIT: I forgot to put in the 8th bloodline, but you get the idea. Either Necromantic Bloodline for more killing-y spells or Fiendish Bloodline for more mind-breaking spells would be good, though each of them adds 1 or 2 overlaps.

4 spells overlap, but he still knows 68 more spells than a normal Sorcerer. At 20th level, that's 102 spells total. Plus, a lot of them are utility spells and battlefield control spells, exactly what Batman wizards use. And, being a sorcerer, he doesn't have to prepare them in advance; he can use a utility spell if he needs it or just use another Fireball if he doesn't need it.

SilentNight
2008-01-06, 11:06 PM
But he'd get owned in melee. He is a batman but that uses all his feats. As long as there was a skill monkey and tank I guess he'd be fine but it still strikes me as a little too vulnerable. I stand by my choice.

Starsinger
2008-01-06, 11:06 PM
stuff

Now who's mating with dictionaries? :smallwink: Still.. that's kinda neat.

Talya
2008-01-06, 11:16 PM
How about a Sorceror who can out-Batman a Batman Wizard? Use the Bloodline feats (originally printed in Dragon Magazine, you can look them up here (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/featsform.pl)), which give you an extra spell known at each spell level.

I'll start with a human Sorcerer. He's got 8 feats, and takes:

Penumbra Bloodline (provides Obscuring mist, Darkness, Nondetection, Evard's black tentacles, Shadow evocation, Shadow walk, Plane shift, Greater shadow evocation, and Etherealness)

Serpent Bloodline (Cause fear, Hypnotic pattern, Sepia snake sigil, Phantasmal killer, Dominate person, Compulsion, Power word blind, Power word stun, and Power word kill)

Fire Bloodline (Hypnotism, Pyrotechnics, Tongues, Fire shield, Cloudkill, Summon monster VI, Delayed blast fireball, Sunburst, and Meteor swarm)

Water Bloodline (Expeditious retreat, Fog cloud, Water breathing, Quench, Transmute rock to mud, Otiluke's freezing sphere, Control weather, Summon monster VIII, and Elemental swarm),

Air Bloodline (Obscuring mist, Gust of wind, Wind wall, Shout, Telekinesis, Control winds, Ethereal jaunt, Summon monster VIII, and Freedom)

Anarchic Bloodline (Color spray, Tasha's hideous laughter, Rage, Confusion, Mindfog, Mislead, Prismatic spray, Maze, and Weird)

Aquatic Fey Bloodline (Charm person, Alter self, Water breathing, Charm monster, Mindfog, Control water, Control weather, Horrid wilting, and Shapechange)

4 spells overlap, but he still knows 68 more spells than a normal Sorcerer. At 20th level, that's 102 spells total. Plus, a lot of them are utility spells and battlefield control spells, exactly what Batman wizards use. And, being a sorcerer, he doesn't have to prepare them in advance; he can use a utility spell if he needs it or just use another Fireball if he doesn't need it.


Very cool, somewhat outside the rules (dragon magazine wasn't WotC, was it?) but still very cool.

Now, mind you, if I were DMing and someone suggested more than one bloodline feat, I'd have some suggestions for where they could stick the bloodline feats.

Xefas
2008-01-06, 11:27 PM
Now, mind you, if I were DMing and someone suggested more than one bloodline feat, I'd have some suggestions for where they could stick the bloodline feats.

Are you saying those mass multi-planar orgies hosted annually in Sigil never happened?

That's going to offend a lot of templated badgers. Draconic Badgers, Dark Badgers, Umbral Badgers, Axiomatic Badgers, Celestial Badgers, Vivacious Badgers...I mean, really...the list goes on. How else are we to explain the badgers?

I think the concept of the ultimate bastard-sorcerer is a cool one.
"Through my veins courses the ancient and unfathomable power of...EVERYONE!"

Starsinger
2008-01-06, 11:29 PM
That's going to offend a lot of templated badgers. Draconic Badgers, Dark Badgers, Umbral Badgers, Axiomatic Badgers, Celestial Badgers, Vivacious Badgers...I mean, really...the list goes on. How else are we to explain the badgers?


Especially since there was only one Badger at the party...

SurlySeraph
2008-01-06, 11:33 PM
Now, mind you, if I were DMing and someone suggested more than one bloodline feat, I'd have some suggestions for where they could stick the bloodline feats.

Aw, it's not for cheese, it's just to explore the discrimination and feelings of alienation such a person would feel in an often-prejudiced society! Plus, gaining the feats as he goes up in level helps represent the increasing revelation that, on some deep level, we're all related if you look back far enough! *Does puppy dog eyes to gain sympathy. Shadow Half-Yuan-ti Fire-touched Water-touched Air-touched Anarchic whatever-the-hell-an-aquatic-fey-touched-is-called Draconic puppy dog eyes*

Thinker
2008-01-06, 11:39 PM
Very cool, somewhat outside the rules (dragon magazine wasn't WotC, was it?) but still very cool.

Now, mind you, if I were DMing and someone suggested more than one bloodline feat, I'd have some suggestions for where they could stick the bloodline feats.

He would be versatile, but he wouldn't have much metamagic, which would make him decidedly weaker than a wizard who didn't have to spend all his feats on those. I think scrolls might be a better approach for the sorcerer for non-save spells, but I have no build to submit right now.

RandomFellow
2008-01-06, 11:44 PM
Personally I'd just build a Shadowcraft Mage / MotAO Sorc.

Sorcerer 5 / Mage of the Arcane Order 2 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 / MotAO 3-10

Your entire damage dealing repertoire consists of a single spell at level 10. Which helps alot with limited spells known.

That said, he isn't Batman. He doesn't know Karate or Kung Fu or whatever. =-)

SilentNight
2008-01-06, 11:46 PM
I do have another build that is extremely shady. Bard 15/Dirgesinger 5. Just uses the 5th level ability to animate the corpse of the most powerful 20th lvl sorcerer or other character in the world. The shady part is obtaining said corpse and getting it by the DM.

TheOOB
2008-01-07, 12:23 AM
We need a situation to make a sorcerer better then a wizard. A sorcerer can never match a wizards versitility, but a sorcerer built for a specific situation, (say one on one arena combat with a predefined rule-set) can outclass a wizard.

Draz74
2008-01-07, 12:32 AM
Races, Feats, Spells, Prestige classes: Anything from WotC D20 3.5 publications compatible with the forgotten realms or eberron settings is acceptable.

If Unearthed Arcana is allowed, then Gestalt is allowed. :smallamused:

Chronicled
2008-01-07, 12:43 AM
How about a Sorceror who can out-Batman a Batman Wizard? Use the Bloodline feats (originally printed in Dragon Magazine, you can look them up here (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/featsform.pl)), which give you an extra spell known at each spell level.

I'll start with a human Sorcerer. He's got 8 feats, and takes:

Penumbra Bloodline (provides Obscuring mist, Darkness, Nondetection, Evard's black tentacles, Shadow evocation, Shadow walk, Plane shift, Greater shadow evocation, and Etherealness)

Serpent Bloodline (Cause fear, Hypnotic pattern, Sepia snake sigil, Phantasmal killer, Dominate person, Compulsion, Power word blind, Power word stun, and Power word kill)

Fire Bloodline (Hypnotism, Pyrotechnics, Tongues, Fire shield, Cloudkill, Summon monster VI, Delayed blast fireball, Sunburst, and Meteor swarm)

Water Bloodline (Expeditious retreat, Fog cloud, Water breathing, Quench, Transmute rock to mud, Otiluke's freezing sphere, Control weather, Summon monster VIII, and Elemental swarm),

Air Bloodline (Obscuring mist, Gust of wind, Wind wall, Shout, Telekinesis, Control winds, Ethereal jaunt, Summon monster VIII, and Freedom)

Anarchic Bloodline (Color spray, Tasha's hideous laughter, Rage, Confusion, Mindfog, Mislead, Prismatic spray, Maze, and Weird)

Aquatic Fey Bloodline (Charm person, Alter self, Water breathing, Charm monster, Mindfog, Control water, Control weather, Horrid wilting, and Shapechange)

EDIT: I forgot to put in the 8th bloodline, but you get the idea. Either Necromantic Bloodline for more killing-y spells or Fiendish Bloodline for more mind-breaking spells would be good, though each of them adds 1 or 2 overlaps.

4 spells overlap, but he still knows 68 more spells than a normal Sorcerer. At 20th level, that's 102 spells total. Plus, a lot of them are utility spells and battlefield control spells, exactly what Batman wizards use. And, being a sorcerer, he doesn't have to prepare them in advance; he can use a utility spell if he needs it or just use another Fireball if he doesn't need it.

A friend who got Dragon Magazine showed me these, and I'm pretty sure that only one bloodline can be taken. Not sure why they didn't state that in the feats themselves, though. :smallconfused:

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-07, 04:50 AM
A variant Stalwart Kobold Battle Sorcerer - 20 using the Kobold Dragonblood Sorcerer racial substitution levels is pretty simple (levels 1, 4 and 7 although it costs the familiar the Kobold picks up a Draconic Heritage feat a few specials including a few bonus spells) 20D8 with an extra +40 hit points, +15 BAB and No ASF in light armor with 2 martial weapon proficiencies and knows a few less spells than a standard sorcerer (Arcane Discipline and a Heritage feat can address that along with Rings of Theurgy and MotAO).

Take 2 Flaws, take the Draconic Ritual to improve spellcasting a level earlier and there is a total of 9 (2 Flaws + 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18) Feats in a 20 level career.

Throw in a UA/SRD Major Bloodline (Draconic or other to taste) since they use different paydown rules than standard LA buydown (IMO taking a Devil or Demon bloodline should open up the Nexus method feat to a Kobold sorcerer (Dragon 319) for spontaneous Summon Monster spells (Nice if pursuing Thaumaturgist or Malconvoker).

Take the Extra Ring Feat so your PC can wear 2 ( or even 4) Rings of Theurgy in addition to standard Rings from Complete Arcane (20,000 gp each is nice for giving a sorcerer an extra 3 known spells per ring) this is really nice with 1, 4 or 7 levels in MotAO or something similar like GWoW 2, 6 or 10 for the Spell Pool for increasing Known Spells through magic items and the Spell Pool.

A Complete Mage variant Stalwart Sorcerer -15, Abjurant Champion is strong and only requires a single feat Combat Casting out of your 9 feats (PRC requires +5 BAB, being able to cast a single Abjuration spell and the weapon proficiency from going Stalwart or the Battle Variant) and gets the PC +16 BAB.

The Battle sorcerer variant isn't a good ideal if the PC will be taking lots of PRCs (15 or so PRC levels).

Consider taking Two Flaws at first level for the Precocious Apprentice feat and the "Scorching Ray" spell which can fuel the Reserve feat Fiery Burst and is good for several levels and can always be traded for a Heritage feat and an Arcane Discipline (I really like the Spell Domain for both Anyspells (You can do so much with a little down time and a spell book (Arcane and Divine spells up to level 5 like the Adept Heal Lesser Planar Ally if you want to go Thaumaturgist) and Limited Wish), down the road for more spells at higher levels since only requires a single feat Combat Casting for the PRC and casting a single Abjuration spell and Battle Sorcerer fulfills the weapons proficiency requirement.

Three strong FRCS feats leveling up from first level: Godsight from Lost Empires of Faerun or Magic in the Blood feat PGtF is nice with LA buy down and a strong +2 LA template like Half Fey (A fey template would be rather odd on a Kobold though) or Spellfire Wielder from MoF.

The Magic in the Blood feat PGtF is nice with LA buy down and a strong +2 LA template like Half Fey (A fey template would be rather odd on a Kobold) or Phrenic with Transparency.

A single level dip or more into Sandshaper brings a lot to a Kobold sorcerer despite losing the caster level (Draconic ritual is nice for balancing it out) lots of extra known useful spells.

Dracolexi and Fiend Blooded PRCs are interesting and the PC picks up a few bonus known spells.

Something I rarely see used in game with sorcerer is learning new or orignal spells via scrolls like meta spells, instead of all the various meta feats.

A sorcerer could learn a level 1 sculpted Caltrops or a level 2 Scupted Grease spell from a scroll and it wouldn't be considered a meta spell or require having the feat.

This is really nice with learning a Augmented Summoning spell from a scroll.

A ECS House Sivis Gnome with a Dragon Mark and the Ultimate Scroll PRC could be pretty interesting also.

Tweaking the Ultimate Magus PRC classes (Making the Ultimate Sorcerer PRC) and allowing Beguilers and Sorcerers would be pretty amazing with practiced caster feats and a Kobold.

An Eldritch Theurge could be nice if using Sorcerer - 1 with Precocious Apprentice would qualify for entry since a Kobold PC could end up with level 9 spells due to the Draconic Ritual. Sorc -1, Warlock -3, Sorc +1, Eldritch Theurge - 10, 5 Sorcerer PRCs to taste.

Reinboom
2008-01-07, 05:13 AM
A friend who got Dragon Magazine showed me these, and I'm pretty sure that only one bloodline can be taken. Not sure why they didn't state that in the feats themselves, though. :smallconfused:

They were reprinted in the Dragon Magazine Compendium, which is honored by wizards of the coast, and this statement is correct. You can only take 1.


Sorcerer 6 (using phb 2 variant and decent int)/Incantatrix 10/Ruathar 1/Abjurant Champion 3
Would net you some decent metamagic capabilities, and make you at least versatile on that end. As well as give working room.
You have 5 + int modifier metamagic without increase of casting time a day. (3+int from variant, 2 from incantatrix)

But... still doesn't quite overshadow a wizard.

Edit:
Also, there's feats in Ghostwalk that give +2 and an additional +2 (2 feats for a total of +4) to Charisma for all caster based effects. (bonus spells, DCs)

Gorbash
2008-01-07, 06:05 AM
For the last time... It's sorcerEr, not bloody sorceror...

valadil
2008-01-07, 01:11 PM
Right now I'm playing a human sorc aiming for incantatrix. He can't compete with a batman yet, but he's leaps and bounds beyond the party's wizard. I didn't powergame him too much because it's not that kind of group (and I doubt we're passing level 12, let alone hitting 20). If I were to powergame him he'd look more like this:

Sorc 6, Mage of the Arcane Order 4, Incantatrix 10.

Take the PHB2 variant to allow for spontaneous metamagic. Also take residual metamagic to get free metamagic on repeated castings.

MotAO and Incantatrix will bring you 4 bonus metamagic feats. I'd go with sculpt, empower, quicken, and heighten.

MotAO 4 gives you spellpool II, which is enough for level 6 spells. You can't rely on MotAO for long term casting in the first place, and most situational utility spells are below level 6 anyway so this should be plenty. The other levels are nice as you get free spells and metamagic, but Incantatrix will get you metamagic anyway.

For other feats I'd go with even more metamagic. Abuse residual metamagic with twin spell and maximize. Split ray can work nicely too depending on your spell choices. I'm aiming to take a lot of battlefield control, a couple damage spells (scorching ray, fireball, orb of force) to metamagic up, and a few abjurations (shield, resist energy) to use up the free abjuration slots from incantatrix.

I'd consider a bloodline, particularly penumbral. I'm not sure if the extra spells are really needed with MotAO 4 though. You'd probably have to play a bit and see how it works out.

Indon
2008-01-07, 01:24 PM
Jack Smith: is there anything about your Sorceror which would have you not benefit from using the metamagic variant in the PHB2?

Lose: Familiar.
Gain: Spontaneous Metamagic.

ErrantX
2008-01-07, 02:24 PM
The build I'd use is Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 6 / Knight Phantom 7 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5.

You'd have a BAB +17, sorcerer spellcasting of 18th level ability for 9th level magic. You could also cast spells in light armor (mithral breastplate anyone?) or take the Battlecaster feat and wear heavier armors, and your defensive magic would be pumped through the roof. You go the level in Spellsword for slightly better saves and the ability to ignore a little bit of spellfailure so if you wanted to, you could use a shield of some variety. A bunch of different ways you could go from there as far as feats, including the draconic/fiendish/celestial heritage feats.

-X

ashmanonar
2008-01-07, 04:07 PM
For the last time... It's sorcerEr, not bloody sorceror...

Sauceror? >.>

Gorbash
2008-01-07, 04:15 PM
I loathe you. :D

Arbitrarity
2008-01-07, 04:41 PM
Whatever the build is, try to make it a white dragonspawn kobold. Use LA buyoff, and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, for 2 extra levels of casting above your level, i.e. 9'th level spells at level 16.

Charlie Kemek
2008-01-07, 04:47 PM
personaly, i think gnome sorcerer or war-mage 6/sujuna 4/mystic thruage 10, or beguiler.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-01-08, 05:32 PM
Something different "The Wishmaster":

+0LA Planetouched Dwarf without LA buydown and +2 LA Phrenic template with LA buydown and using a UA/SRD Major Bloodline which are cheap to pay down since they use different mechanics. Taking 2 Flaws would probably a good ideal if the PC can choose them.

Marshal - 1 (Motivate Aura Charisma and Heavy Armor Prof (Diplomacy Skill and Skill Focus feat also which is nice for a Sorcerer) MHB at some point in the build. (Dragon Shaman could be sweet if you can talk your DM into letting you get Motivate Aura Charisma)

Sorcerer -4

MotAO -7

Runesmith - 5 (For Permanent Rune Limited Wish or Wish 2/Day (Without daily experience point costs for the spell like abilities (For no experience points Wishes the last level of the PRC needs to be taken at level 20 (or 21) when acquiring Epic level spellcasting unless you can use the retraining rules to upgrade from Limited Wish to Wish)), the Arch Mage PRC High Arcana Spell-like Ability and the Arcane Discipline Luck the PC can cast no experience point Miracles as a spell-like ability 2/day.

PRC-3 to personal taste (ACM, Abjurant Champion, Loremaster, remaining MotAO levels, Sandshaper and Ruathor (could be interesting for a Dwarf who regularly interacts with Elves))

Spellcasting as a Sorcerer - 19 (18 with something like Sandshaper - 1)

Chaelos
2010-01-10, 02:42 PM
Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 10/MotAO 4 (Or Archmage 4, depending on your preference)

Longcat
2010-01-10, 03:14 PM
Sorcerer5/Mage of the Arcane Order10/Shadowcraft Mage3/Archmage2
->Replicate any Evocation and/or Conjuration(summoning) and Conjuration(creation) spell of 9th level or lower.
->Gain access to rarely needed but useful spells via Spellpool
->Utilize "Shadow Miracles" to basically replicate any spell

FMArthur
2010-01-10, 03:30 PM
Ursinal Sorcerer 2

There is nothing about this build that is useful, optimal, or even relevant to the topic. But you get to be an upright-walking, intelligent spellcasting bear.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/boed_gallery/75112.jpg

Keld Denar
2010-01-10, 03:43 PM
Elf Paladin2/Sorcerer6/Arcane Archer2/Sublime Chord2/AbjChamp5/SacEx3

Using the Harmoneous Knight Paladin ACF from the Champions of Valor web exert. This gives you bardic music in place of a couple of your paladin abilities.

You are a bad ass elf who loves to plug people with AMF imbued arrows of badassery.

Longcat
2010-01-10, 03:43 PM
Ursinal Sorcerer 2

There is nothing about this build that is useful, optimal, or even relevant to the topic. But you get to be an upright-walking, intelligent spellcasting bear.


So, essentially, a druid? :smallbiggrin:

FMArthur
2010-01-10, 03:50 PM
So, essentially, a druid? :smallbiggrin:

Ordinary bears can't walk around like a human. :smallamused:

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-01-10, 03:53 PM
Joker Bard.

Granted, his biggest source of cheese isn't spells, it's Diplomancy, but still... if you want to throw in Sublime Chord into the mix, you get 9th level spells, and many of his tricks become easier.

He was, in fact, specifically designed to fight Batman Wizards, and has counters for the majority of their tricks.

Probably not as lethal as a Killer Gnome Sorc/Shadowcraft Mage build, but more versatility, and more mundane tricks up his sleeve.

Optimystik
2010-01-10, 04:27 PM
Ordinary bears can't walk around like a human. :smallamused:

Planar Shepherd can Wild Shape into an Ursinal, and gets all the regular druid benefits plus many more.

Alternatively, Sentinel of Bear-Eye from BoED lets your sorcerer become a bear.

Kallisti
2010-01-10, 04:32 PM
Whisper gnome Illusionist/Shadowcraft Mage/Incantatrix/Shadowcrafter. Much more flexibility than Batman right there, and all of the spells on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list are available to him via Shadowcraft Mage abuse.

Signmaker
2010-01-10, 04:36 PM
How much absurd optimization are you willing to have done? Depending on your answer I can qualify for Sublime Chord as early as, say, 3rd level, which leads to obvious consequences.

Soranar
2010-01-10, 05:00 PM
I think I agree that a sublime chord bard build might be superior to a sorcerer, even with bloodline shenanigans

a harbinger bard lowers saves significantly, which gives an edge on spell DCs

once you add 9th level sorcerer spellcasting through sublime chord you're in business

not sure if you need to go further than level one though (sublime chord), and maybe switch to a different PrC to get a better progression

Keld Denar
2010-01-10, 05:03 PM
2 levels of Sublime Chord are typical, with 1 being seen when something really tasty presents itself. The 2nd is kinda a freebee since it gets +1 BAB, which most gishy Sublime Chords thrive on.

taltamir
2010-01-10, 05:11 PM
people have done a very good job of milking the race and class and feat choices... but real power (contrary to what xykon thinks), is in spells (well, actually it is in knowledge and planning, but making a powerful plan usually requires just the right choice of cheesy spells).

I am thinking:
1. Celerity (once per round, make it your turn)
2. Contingency (Celerity) when I say "celerity" (a free action, can be done on others turn, and can stack with the regular celerity.
3. Craft Contingency (celerity) when I say "cel1", "cel2", "cel3" etc... (have as many of those as you can stack).
4. Consider dual progression cerebremancer so that you can use the psion methods of "i go first" to ensure you win...
5. Choose one "i win" strategy and pump it through the roof. (as cindy shows, even blasting can have an "i win" button)

Roland St. Jude
2010-01-10, 11:29 PM
Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 10/MotAO 4 (Or Archmage 4, depending on your preference)

Sheriff of Moddingham: This is a thread from two years ago. Please don't resurrect old threads.