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Zeful
2008-01-08, 01:57 AM
Having read a lot of Batman Vs threads, I've noticed that everyone seems to agree that batman wins because of a logical mind and preparation. I have taken it upon myself to find as many people as possible that batman cannot win against, even under the most favourable circumstances. I've found that most of these examples exist in Terry Brook's literature. There are three notable heros that could Batman could not beat under any circumstances.

1st: Allanon: Sword of Shanara, Wishstones of Shanara, Wishsong of Shanara Allanon is, for three books, the Last Druid of Shanara. He is one of the most powerful being within Shanara. He has wrestled down a powerful supernatural creature to a stalemate with purely physical power. He has also defeated a powerful Demonic wizard and sealed away his staff's powers with his own. Lastly all of the druid's knowledge was kept in a hidden repository accesable only to the higher ups in the druidic organization, before the castle just upped and vanished.

Why Batman loses: Batman despite all his strength and skill is outclassed by the Druid's. His gagdets and other toys are beaten through the Druid's arcane might that have turned supernatural creatures to ash. Lastly Batman has no means to research the Druid's capabilities and cannot make any silly gadgets to make an attmept to thwart the mystical capabilities of the druids.

2nd The Weapons Master: Wishsong of Shanara, The Weapons Master is supposedly a warrior without par due to his natural talent and training. He is a trainer of armies so his tactical knowledge is superb. He searched the land of Shanara looking for a challenge to his awesome fighting abilities so that he may die in battle.

Why Batman loses: Batman has the most chance against this opponent but is at a marked disadvantage. First, it's the implied ability to intuitively understand any weapon he picks up. Second is the knowledge of several weapon, stealth and tracking skills. Third is search for a worthy opponent to kill him in a fight. Batman's engagement with The Weapon's Master would be brutally short, as batman often keeps his arsenal in check for a first encounter, the WM (Weapon's Master) would knock him out and simply move on.

3rd: The Paladin: Magical Kingdom for Sale; Sold The supernatural guardian of the Kingdom of Landover. He has existed for as long as anyone could remember. He is an extension of the King's will and has thousands of years of combat experience on his side. He has killed a powerful demon named the Iron Mark in single combat.

Why Batman loses:The Paladin is a magical being with thousands of years of combat experience fighting demons and protecting Landover for invasion. He has no emptions and has superhuman physical attributes. His summoned with full awareness and can jump right into the fight without hesitation. Also there is no information to explain where the Paladin comes from or his capabilities.

Now this seems biased but my assessment are based on three things that are often attributed to Batman victories. If Batman has just one of these he is given the 'win'. They are:

1 Level of competence (physical and gimickal)
2 Experience in their field
3 Researchability of abilities.

Allanon, The Weapons Master and the Paladin have each of these points in their favor. The Weapons Master is a special case because he would fight Bat's the once and leave never to be seen again so the last point is irrelevant in that case.

This post has been spoilered for length.

Eita
2008-01-08, 02:01 AM
Actually, Batman always wins because he's a ninja.

Take away the advantage of surprise. For some reason Batman knows nothing about these guys but these guys won't hesitate to use their full fury.

But still, ninja.

WhiteKnight777
2008-01-08, 02:34 AM
I think Batman wins because Terry Brook's novels are thinly veiled (and poorly written) excuses to publish his bondage/rape fantasies and push objectivist tripe. Also, the man's a basket case.

Then again, I might not be the most neutral party to be judging this one.

Eita
2008-01-08, 02:40 AM
I suddenly have an overwhelming urge to buy one of his novels. For you see, only the madman can judge what is sane.

WhiteKnight777
2008-01-08, 02:42 AM
I suddenly have an overwhelming urge to buy one of his novels. For you see, only the madman can judge what is sane.

But he's not insane in the good way. Also, as I said, he's an objectivist, a philosophy with almost as much logical credibility as Scientology.

Eita
2008-01-08, 02:43 AM
...

Crap.

Speaking of Scientology, one time, when I was bored, I just went to Wikipedia and read their entire belief system. Read it like a science fiction novel, and it actually is quite entertaining.

I was most amused when I received information that is kept from Scientologists until they reach a certain OT level.

WhiteKnight777
2008-01-08, 02:44 AM
...

Crap.

Speaking of Scientology, one time, when I was bored, I just went to Wikipedia and read their entire belief system. Read it like a science fiction novel, and it actually is quite entertaining.

I was most amused when I received information that is kept from Scientologists until they reach a certain OT level.

How else would they bilk people for mounds of loot?

Eita
2008-01-08, 02:47 AM
Sell the books in individual chapters for extremely high prices?

FoE
2008-01-08, 02:50 AM
Batman beats the **** out of the Paladin. Why? Using his detective skills, he quickly figures out the connection between Ben Holiday (or whoever the current king of Landover is at the time) and uses that to his advantage. He's just a knight with a sword; the Batman can easily get around the Paladin to strike at his controller (who can't defend himself because his soul is inhabiting said Paladin).

And Batman could probably stomp the Weapons Master as well. He may be the greatest swords in the Four Lands, but Batman is a match for the greatest hand-to-hand combatants in the DC universe. And if they were battling under cover of darkness, Batman would have the clear advantage.

Allanon is a bit trickier. You've entered magic in the equation, and that's a pretty big wild card; Allanon might pull out the win.

Eita
2008-01-08, 02:53 AM
Batman killed (Silver?) Superman with Kryptonite bullets. And is a ninja.

WarriorTribble
2008-01-08, 06:34 AM
I think Batman wins because Terry Brook's novels are thinly veiled (and poorly written) excuses to publish his bondage/rape fantasies and push objectivist tripe. Also, the man's a basket case.

Then again, I might not be the most neutral party to be judging this one.Where did you hear of these things? Granted I've only read one book, where the protagonist berates an entire order (they later die) for selfishly caring about their own hobbies instead of the fate of the world. That sounds rather anti-Objectivist no? I think you're confusing Brooks with Terry Goodkind.

Zeful
2008-01-08, 07:18 AM
Batman beats the **** out of the Paladin. Why? Using his detective skills, he quickly figures out the connection between Ben Holiday (or whoever the current king of Landover is at the time) and uses that to his advantage. He's just a knight with a sword; the Batman can easily get around the Paladin to strike at his controller (who can't defend himself because his soul is inhabiting said Paladin). But only Ben Holiday knows that he is the Paladin, everyone else believes that it's the soul of the land or some such. And the Bat couldn't make that logic jump. Why? Because he [Ben] doesn't do anything, he just watches the Paladin like many other rulers watch their champion fight for them, if he's where the battle is. There's no tell that the sensitive and intelligent man is also this ruthless, emotionless killing machine. and you know Batman has to survive the battle before he can move against Ben, who can summon the Paladin at any time.


And Batman could probably stomp the Weapons Master as well. He may be the greatest swords in the Four Lands, but Batman is a match for the greatest hand-to-hand combatants in the DC universe. And if they were battling under cover of darkness, Batman would have the clear advantage. Except the Weapons Master isn't just the greatest sword (his weapon of choice) in the four lands he's also the best archer, axeman, staff user etc. He's also a very good tracker. I feel that the fight would heavily favor the weapon master.


Allanon is a bit trickier. You've entered magic in the equation, and that's a pretty big wild card; Allanon might pull out the win. Might? Allanon has better than human strength (but not quite supernatural) has enough magical power as an evoker to take down a colossal or larger dragon by himself, has decades of experiance, and you say might?:smallconfused: I'd be surprised if we could sweep Bat's into his urn after the fight.

Now I would ask that off topic discussions such as the Mr. Brook's alleged sexual fantasies and Scientology stop immediately as this thread is about me attempting to prove that batman can't always win.


Batman killed (Silver?) Superman with Kryptonite bullets. And is a ninja. Just because no one else took advantage of superman's weakness in such a manner doesn't necessarily make Batman smart.

Also I am using a premise that Batman doesn't know about the Paladin, the Weapons Master or Allanon as two are from (according to the Shanara series) several hundred years in the future and the Paladin is from another dimension. He has little reasonable way of knowing anything about them, especially Allanon and the Paladin due to the fact that the information is either hidden (Druid's library) or lost (Paladin's Origin's and after Elfstones of Shanara the Druid's library)

Mr. Scaly
2008-01-08, 08:07 AM
[QUOTE=WhiteKnight777;3763504]I think Batman wins because Terry Brook's novels are thinly veiled (and poorly written) excuses to publish his bondage/rape fantasies and push objectivist tripe. Also, the man's a basket case.
QUOTE]

...What the spork?

Swordguy
2008-01-08, 08:22 AM
Where did you hear of these things? Granted I've only read one book, where the protagonist berates an entire order (they later die) for selfishly caring about their own hobbies instead of the fate of the world. That sounds rather anti-Objectivist no? I think you're confusing Brooks with Terry Goodkind.

THIS.

Seriously, though, Goodkind has some issues. That first book, it's like it's describing my Tuesday nights some crazy sado-masochistic fantasy.

Zeful
2008-01-08, 08:28 AM
This is not a discussions of particular authors alleged sexual fantasies so can you all please stop.

Swordguy
2008-01-08, 08:36 AM
Bah. You just can't deal with normal thread drift.

Anyway, Batman wins because he has more fanboys who will argue that Bats can beat anyone up to and including himself in a mirror match. Terry Brook's better writing, more interesting characterizations, blatant LotR ripoffs (see also: Sword of Shannara) and a lack of random homoeroticism can't beat that.

Zeful
2008-01-08, 08:50 AM
What do fanboys have to do with anything? They don't provide anything substantial to argue against besides "Batman wins with preparation." or "cuase he a 1337 n1nj4!!!!1!11!!!!!!!!111!!111!!!!"

This thread defeats those arguments with the premise of Batman can't beat these people. Period. Why? Because he A knows nothing (two are from the future and Wayne industries can't track every single substantial money transaction in the world (and even if he did a $1 million dollar time-share just isn't worth the effort to investigate)) B he outclassed via skill (Allanon, Weapons Master, Paladin) magical powers (Allanon, Paladin) or sheer experiance (Allanon (decades), Paladin (centuries)) so the fanboys have to produce actual logical arguments as to why Batman won't die against these people.
Lastly preparation will only help against the Weapons Master who is no longer interested in fighting Bats making the preparations useless.

Indon
2008-01-08, 09:03 AM
I think Batman wins because Terry Brook's novels are thinly veiled (and poorly written) excuses to publish his bondage/rape fantasies and push objectivist tripe. Also, the man's a basket case.

Then again, I might not be the most neutral party to be judging this one.

Terry Goodkind: Sword of Truth novels.

Terry Brooks: Landover, Sword of Shannarra, and Knight of the Word novels.

Nothing alike, really. (I wouldn't call Goodkind an objectivist, either - his ideas, to me, seem stranger than that)

That said, while Alannon is somewhat of a powerhouse (more powerful than his predecessor, if I recall), he's got one big weakness: Druid's sleep.

Zeful
2008-01-08, 09:34 AM
Granted the druid's sleep is a limiting factor but like the Druid Archives where he chooses to sleep is either A. Hidden so well that no one but Druid can find it. B. Warded so strongly that only druids can survive entering or C some combination of the above. Otherwise one of the two great evils (the Sauron-esk fallen druid, or the Illidatch) would have killed him before he was a threat.

Verruckt
2008-01-08, 09:55 AM
2 things, as I have read none of Mr. Brooks' work you will have to bare with me here for a moment.

1. As batman has no time to research, the neither do his opponents, are any of these men the kind of people who randomly kill men in black leather capes?

2. Depending on protections and immunities of which I am unaware, wouldn't Bats simply just pick up a gun and shoot them? (in the gloves off scenario obviously)

Darken Rahl
2008-01-08, 09:56 AM
I found Goodkind's philosophies an interesting take on what might otherwise become boring fantasy. Where other author's set up worlds and try to make new magic rules, Goodkind set up a world with fantasy philosophy, which may not work in our world, but nobody complains that "oh noes magic isnt real so this author must be a nutjob."

I figure he's simply thinking outside our world's logic to try and make his stories a little fresher, cuz Lord knows a lot of his other plot devices are stale as old bread...

Indon
2008-01-08, 10:09 AM
2 things, as I have read none of Mr. Brooks' work you will have to bare with me here for a moment.

1. As batman has no time to research, the neither do his opponents, are any of these men the kind of people who randomly kill men in black leather capes?

2. Depending on protections and immunities of which I am unaware, wouldn't Bats simply just pick up a gun and shoot them? (in the gloves off scenario obviously)

1.As in most vs. threads, I think we have to assume animosity from the start. Otherwise, Bruce Wayne would probably get along quite well with Alannon, at least.

2.Bats doesn't use guns (when being written in-character) - he's quirky that way.

sikyon
2008-01-08, 10:09 AM
As long as there is information, batman can find it. Doesn't matter how well it's hidden, he just has this ability to find his opponent's weaknesses. Also, he has connections. All part of being a superhero. When he needs help against magic, he uses his antimagic resources, such as Zanata.

Besides he has super-tech, not just stuff on his belt. Bikes, Boats, Batmobile, airplanes, spaceships, spacestations, satellites that turn people into superheroes, etc.

Everyone has a weakness, and batman's power is knowing how to exploit them, or finding out that weakness. He beat silver age superman for goodness sakes. Silver age superman was a god. Kryptonite may seem like an obvious weakness, but everyone has one, be it physical or mental.

If they don't, then really they're an intensely flat character that is terrible and we might as well be talking about how batman can't catch the road runner.

Zeful
2008-01-08, 10:29 AM
@Verrukt: Your right none of these characters from Mr. Brook's novels have a chance to do research but none of them actually need to do the research to begin with. And assuming for what ever reason they fight (not the purpose of this thread) Batman will get owned.
My reasons are simply that Allanon could simple wipe Batman away with his magic (described as a lance of blue flame), the Weapon Master and Paladin simply outfight him due to superior skill and experience (Paladin) or due to a quest to die at the hands of a warrior that would give him his greatest challenge (Weapons Master, and he died presumably killing the demon that killed Allanon.)

And while all of these characters are mortal Batman's only chance would be to simply shoot them dead, but Batman generally doesn't carry one on him and to do so would be more or less preparing so for this it's a no no.

But look at it this way you've proven my base premise wrong, if batman prepares for this situation he'll win, but the situation has to come up first and he's unlikely to survive that initial encounter.


As long as there is information, batman can find it. Doesn't matter how well it's hidden, he just has this ability to find his opponent's weaknesses. Also, he has connections. All part of being a superhero. When he needs help against magic, he uses his antimagic resources, such as Zanata.

Besides he has super-tech, not just stuff on his belt. Bikes, Boats, Batmobile, airplanes, spaceships, spacestations, satellites that turn people into superheroes, etc.

Everyone has a weakness, and batman's power is knowing how to exploit them, or finding out that weakness. He beat silver age superman for goodness sakes. Silver age superman was a god. Kryptonite may seem like an obvious weakness, but everyone has one, be it physical or mental.

If they don't, then really they're an intensely flat character that is terrible and we might as well be talking about how batman can't catch the road runner.
Yes all of these characters have a weakness. Allanon's is the Druid's sleep, the Paladin's is the king of Landover and I don't know what the weapons master's is but it could be the suicidal attitude.

As for information there's not really any to be found, in Allanon's case the druid's archive is well hidden(and I believe magically cloaked) and after Elfstones it vanished. The Weapons Master is looking for someone to give him a good fight so that he may die a warrior. The Paladin's weakness is known only to the king of Landover and the fey that made the Kingship Medallion and they distrust humans. Also the sword of Shanara series takes place thousands of years in the future. Making reconnaissance a mite past impossible.

My point is that unless Bats takes extreme measures (using guns) he won't survive past the first encounter with any of these three. Or if he does survive then the level of preparation doesn't actually matter unless he decides to get a .50 cal rifle with a 500x zoom scope and hit them from a mile away. Which he won't because as has been stated before Batman doesn't use guns.

sikyon
2008-01-08, 11:04 AM
As for information there's not really any to be found, in Allanon's case the druid's archive is well hidden(and I believe magically cloaked) and after Elfstones it vanished. The Weapons Master is looking for someone to give him a good fight so that he may die a warrior. The Paladin's weakness is known only to the king of Landover and the fey that made the Kingship Medallion and they distrust humans. Also the sword of Shanara series takes place thousands of years in the future. Making reconnaissance a mite past impossible.

My point is that unless Bats takes extreme measures (using guns) he won't survive past the first encounter with any of these three. Or if he does survive then the level of preparation doesn't actually matter unless he decides to get a .50 cal rifle with a 500x zoom scope and hit them from a mile away. Which he won't because as has been stated before Batman doesn't use guns.

Batman can just magic inclined friends to help rediscover elfstones, weapon master may be vulnerable to the kind of mental games batman plays and as long as someone knows about anything batman can get it eventually. Information spreads fast. Also, batman probably has a time machine lying about somewhere. Batman can always just call on his superhero friends to help in out in a fight as well. By himself, he doesn't need guns. He could just bust out some sort of giant robotic supersuit or the batwing and fire missiles.

But honestly if he met some sort of super druid he'd pound it with explosive tech, if he met a martial arts master he'd outwit him, and if he met a demon he'd call in magical backup. He's not stupid enough to just try and fistfight someone, in that sort of scenario 90% of the DC population could probably stomp him anyways. He runs, plans, and then regroups to attack. It's no big feat to beat batman in a cage match. Try having them fight silver age superman if you want a real cage match.

Zeful
2008-01-08, 11:31 AM
I've refrained from giving any of the characters any allies but if Batman get the superfriends then Allanon gets Brin Ohmsford and her reality-bending Wishsong. Garet Jax (the weapons master) gets Jair and his illusion-crafting Wishsong. The Paladin gets the court wizard. And then Batman gets erased from existence, slaughtered by an invisible enemy and wins in one of the bouts, respectively. And if we decide to include supertech then well enter the Sword of Shanara, the sword that reveals the unbaised truth of one's existence to them. The Elfstones, three stones that hold much magic that is formed by the wielders will alone. And fianaly the Unicorn spellbooks capable of making even the least competent wizard a valuable tool to the crown of Landover. When people start adding other people you get some very ridiculous situations.

Indon
2008-01-08, 11:37 AM
The Paladin gets the court wizard...and [Batman] wins in one of the bouts...

He doesn't _have_ to be Questor.

puppyavenger
2008-01-08, 12:03 PM
Batman can just magic inclined friends to help rediscover elfstones, weapon master may be vulnerable to the kind of mental games batman plays and as long as someone knows about anything batman can get it eventually. Information spreads fast. Also, batman probably has a time machine lying about somewhere. Batman can always just call on his superhero friends to help in out in a fight as well. By himself, he doesn't need guns. He could just bust out some sort of giant robotic supersuit or the batwing and fire missiles.

But honestly if he met some sort of super druid he'd pound it with explosive tech, if he met a martial arts master he'd outwit him, and if he met a demon he'd call in magical backup. He's not stupid enough to just try and fistfight someone, in that sort of scenario 90% of the DC population could probably stomp him anyways. He runs, plans, and then regroups to attack. It's no big feat to beat batman in a cage match. Try having them fight silver age superman if you want a real cage match.

The Shanara books take placer thousands of years in the future after a nuclear holacaust. And if he getrs allies and supertach then the Druid gets All of the parties from the Shanara series, The Combined Forces of the four lands, the ghost of Bremen and the historey of thwe elves that goes back to the begining of time. if we include supertech then he is erased from existence by Allanon.

Verruckt
2008-01-08, 12:13 PM
My point is that unless Bats takes extreme measures (using guns) he won't survive past the first encounter with any of these three. Or if he does survive then the level of preparation doesn't actually matter unless he decides to get a .50 cal rifle with a 500x zoom scope and hit them from a mile away. Which he won't because as has been stated before Batman doesn't use guns.

waaaait a second, are you telling me that there are people that the Punisher could paste quite easily that Batman wouldn't be able to take down?

Does that sound horribly wrong to anyone else?

WhiteKnight777
2008-01-08, 02:15 PM
As has already been pointed out, I am a schmuck. Don't know why I confuse Brooks and Goodkind. Anyway, I withdraw my comments. Carry on.

sikyon
2008-01-09, 08:50 AM
I've refrained from giving any of the characters any allies but if Batman get the superfriends then Allanon gets Brin Ohmsford and her reality-bending Wishsong. Garet Jax (the weapons master) gets Jair and his illusion-crafting Wishsong. The Paladin gets the court wizard. And then Batman gets erased from existence, slaughtered by an invisible enemy and wins in one of the bouts, respectively. And if we decide to include supertech then well enter the Sword of Shanara, the sword that reveals the unbaised truth of one's existence to them. The Elfstones, three stones that hold much magic that is formed by the wielders will alone. And fianaly the Unicorn spellbooks capable of making even the least competent wizard a valuable tool to the crown of Landover. When people start adding other people you get some very ridiculous situations.

Yeah it get's rediculous, but batman usually just calls in the firepower he needs. But the point I was trying to make was that batman doesn't stand up and fight an unwinnable fight. He runs like a little girl and comes back with everything he needs to wipe the floor with whomever he needs to.

And yes, universe spanning fights would become rediculous. I'm sure there's some ally somewhere in DC that can stand up to all of that, or some convoluted technology.

Gungnir
2008-01-09, 09:38 AM
Heh, I forgot about the Sword. Best idea from the series is that one of the BBEGs is still around simply because he doesn't think that he is dead. I wonder how it would work on Batsie?

Indon
2008-01-09, 12:01 PM
The Sword of Shanarra wouldn't affect Batman. He already knows he's a sad man who has devoted his life to vengance, and accepted this.

This is implied because whenever Batman gets brain-drained or whatever, the information gleaned is never Bruce Wayne's, but instead, Batman's. Wayne thinks of himself as Batman, internalizing the identity and all it implies.

Edit (spoilered for those who have never completed a Sword of Shannara trilogy):

Though, the Sword could theoretically bring the fight to a halt by showing both the wielder and batman that they're just a book and comic book character (respectively) fighting in a message board battle.

:P

Ossian
2008-01-09, 12:41 PM
The sword of shannara was such a piece of junk (item and book). Whateverhisnamewas was a Druid that could not accept death and became a Sauron lame ripoff instead. Once hit with the SOS he'd just be put before the truth.

Evil Overlord: I'm Immortal! I cannot die!
Hero (swings the sword of shannara, hits): Lie! You died 3000 years ago
EO: What? It's true...oh sh...(disappears)

What's the shock for the caped crusader? Unless the SOS made it plain to him that he's abusing the utility belt scenario (http://www.howitshouldhaveended.com/Divx%20links/Superman.html), I really see no use for it.

O.

Zeful
2008-01-09, 10:41 PM
Except that the sword of Shanara reveals all truths, even ones that the victim/wielder has repressed. And granted Batman's got a strong mind, the sword could be used against his allies that aren't so strong willed (compared to batman their all weak willed).
I agree that the sword of Shanara is weak compared to some of the other stuff in the Shanara series but I could have specified the Ildatch for my teams side. It can corrupt anyone within it's direct presence. Batman becomes a villian and and suffers from a chronic loss of insight and intelligence (see Voldermort) and then Aquaboy could beat him.

WarriorTribble
2008-01-10, 04:22 AM
I forget, does the Black Elfstone work on non-magical beings?

puppyavenger
2008-01-10, 07:41 AM
I forget, does the Black Elfstone work on non-magical beings?

/I think so.

Woot Spitum
2008-01-11, 12:39 PM
I forget, does the Black Elfstone work on non-magical beings?Nope. It's power is to absorb magic. If there is no magic to absorb, it can't do anything.

WarriorTribble
2008-01-12, 01:17 AM
Nope. It's power is to absorb magic. If there is no magic to absorb, it can't do anything.In "Fist King of Shannara" Tay Trefenwyd wipes out a party of Gnomes (who I think are non magical) and two Skullbearers with the stone. A bit of retconning perhaps?