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penguinreich
2008-01-08, 08:45 PM
I'm wonder if anyone made a wizard variant using mechanics from the novel/tv series. I'm reasonably upset by the current wizard class and I'm looking for alternatives.

Or any variants that make more sense. I have a fluff explanation for the wizards, but the whole memorizing spells thing seems kind of weak.

penguinreich
2008-01-10, 07:56 PM
So that's a resounding no.

I might be able to whip one up, I'd just have to totally change the spells and abilities of the wizard. Easy stuff.

[Insert Neat Username Here]
2008-01-10, 08:09 PM
http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/

I have no clue when this will be finished.

Raroy
2008-01-10, 08:25 PM
Eleven minutes is a resounding no now? Sometimes it takes hours for a response.......when did this fact come about?

penguinreich
2008-01-10, 08:27 PM
I posted a day or two ago.

Goofy

BRC
2008-01-10, 11:19 PM
Personally I think a sorceror would be the closest, its been awhile since I read the books but from what I remember the casting is spontenous. I don't know how to handle the whole "Can only do with magic what you feel is right" thing though

Raroy
2008-01-10, 11:22 PM
.............I............I..............oh....... *shame*

ashmanonar
2008-01-10, 11:56 PM
Personally I think a sorceror would be the closest, its been awhile since I read the books but from what I remember the casting is spontenous. I don't know how to handle the whole "Can only do with magic what you feel is right" thing though

I think it would be somewhere between the two. He can spontaneously cast, but he also kinda needs to know ahead of time what he's facing so as to have the proper foci/materials/etc. His spells seem to vary wildly WRT how he casts them.

Plus, it would probably be based more off of a Psionic Powerpoint-type system than spells per day. He seems to be more restricted by his general energy level rather than a set formula of spells.

On that note, I would kill to play a Harry Dresden-style magic user in a d20 game. He would probably be really cheese weasel though. It would certainly work better than a game in a modern time, because of the restrictions he faces in dealing with modern technology.

Moribundus
2008-01-11, 01:04 AM
Well, they'd have to be able to make 'focus items' in order to utilize their magic. . . I believe in this world, most of the other wizards are better at controlling their magics, Dresden is obscenely strong as wizards go -- he lacks control. . .


how about some sort of class ability(s) where the crafting of 'focus items' is core. e.g. the crafting of a 'blasting rod' 'shield bracelet' et al.

what about a PRC for the enforcer type folks. . . (what are they called again?)

magic_unlocked
2008-01-11, 01:40 AM
This seems rather interesting. Though, I've only seen a few Dresden Files shows. I planned to watch it regularly then my TV decided to die and lack of money dicated that i had to forgo a TV >_>

Cieyrin
2008-01-11, 02:08 AM
This seems rather interesting. Though, I've only seen a few Dresden Files shows. I planned to watch it regularly then my TV decided to die and lack of money dictated that i had to forgo a TV >_>

Unfortunately the series got dropped by Scifi after the first season, which you can now pick up on DVD as a set. The books are definitely worth the read if you get the chance. They make quite a few things in the series far more understandable but its not required by any means.

Inyssius Tor
2008-01-11, 02:30 AM
I think that, with the mostly spontaneous casting (except for the really powerful stuff) and the focus items, 4th Edition will have more Dresden-y wizards. One major point in its favor, there.

Also, I liked what the TV series did with Bob (and that one scene with the Archive lady), but that was it for improvements. Also, they showed the episodes out of order, and the pilot came three weeks after the premiere--what the hell is up with that? Come on! Is showing first seasons completely out of order--and then cancelling them when watchers complain they don't make any sense--the hip thing to do now?

Anyway. It would require a major alteration of any spellcasting class's mechanics, and you're starting out crippled if you try to force the D&D Wizard into a Dresden mold. Power points are a good starting point, though.

EDIT: I didn't actually see Magic Unlocked's post. Read the books. They're awesome, and the TV series is but a pale and distorted shadow of that awesome.

Amotis
2008-01-11, 02:49 AM
Having only read some of the books I think I'll say that the systems of supernaturals are a mix of common mythologies (at least the right ones, not the modern-ly changed ones), some of his own word, and white wolf. So I see a lot of the "don't mess with that natural order of thing" aka pseudo paradox going on. Which is akin to oWoD Mage. But there's also a bunch of weird uncontrolled and seemingly random laws going into that. Which can just be chalked up with Dresden being basically untrained and...well Mage is kinda like that too.

It's sum cool reading though.

Rumpus
2008-01-11, 03:12 AM
Yeah, definitely read the books. The TV show did it's best, but trying to cram several hundred pages of book into each episode made it much less good than it could have been. Not terrible, but nowhere near as good as the books.

Jim Butcher's wizards definitely operate on an MP type of system (as in HP/MP). Actually, a better system to represent it might be the original Shadowrun system: you get worn out, and eventually continuing to use your magic drains your health if you keep pushing it (and a huge shot of adrenaline or righteous fury can give you the power to burn down a whole estate).

Paradox isn't a factor, Harry's done magic on television before ("People complained the special effects looked cheap"), people just refuse to believe in it for the sake of their own sanity. For a more expanded discussion on that, see the beginning of Dead Beat.

The big twist that will screw up most gaming groups is that you aren't supposed to use magic to kill. Doing so will get you hunted down by the Wadens of the White Council. There are exceptions, but that's why Harry always carries a firearm (he can kill, just not with magic). You also can't animate the undead or exert mental control on another. This unfortunately means a good portion of the standard spell list will get you killed.

Orzel
2008-01-11, 03:17 AM
A Dresden style wizard would be cool but it would need much combat boosting since 50% of D&D would get you stabbed by Warders. No killing, no mind control, no necromancy, "no divination", no offensive transmutation,...

might as well be a "petless" ranger...

Amotis
2008-01-11, 03:19 AM
Paradox isn't a factor, Harry's done magic on television before ("People complained the special effects looked cheap"), people just refuse to believe in it for the sake of their own sanity. For a more expanded discussion on that, see the beginning of Dead Beat.

I haven't read Dead Beat, but paradox is more reality lashing out if the consensus of the non-mage beings contradicts the magic. If they were expecting special effects, and the whole "it's on tv" thing, well then I don't see paradox doing much besides something subtle, not bad stuff instintly happening but more of "I saw what you did there, that' doesn't fly with me" sorta thing. Though I recall that Dresden does have almost some paradox spirits, or what not, falling him around and I remember hearing that his openness about magic ain't the highly regarded among the other mages. Which may or may not lead back to paradox.

Inyssius Tor
2008-01-11, 03:35 AM
EDIT: Whoa, mega-post!

Paradox isn't a factor, Harry's done magic on television before ("People complained the special effects looked cheap"), people just refuse to believe in it for the sake of their own sanity. For a more expanded discussion on that, see the beginning of Dead Beat.
That's not all, though. A large part of the supernatural world is convinced that normal humans will freak out and go witch-hunting if enough people find out (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Masquerade). Most beings stay quiet, but there's no penalty (beyond being publicly branded as a psycho and a loony, and giving you a pretty similar, if much less extreme, reputation in supernatural circles).


The big twist that will screw up most gaming groups is that you aren't supposed to use magic to kill. Doing so will get you hunted down by the Wadens of the White Council. There are exceptions, but that's why Harry always carries a firearm (he can kill, just not with magic). You also can't animate the undead or exert mental control on another. This unfortunately means a good portion of the standard spell list will get you killed.
There are major loopholes in most of those, though. You can't kill Humanoids with magic (anything from Monstrous Humanoid through Plant and Ooze is fair game), you might get away with it if you aren't a Humanoid (you'll still get hunted down for standard villainy, but the Laws of Magic are mostly for people, by people) and you can get away with self-defense if you have enough clout with the White Council.
Likewise, you can't animate Humanoid undead, speak with dead and several other skirting-the-line Necromancy spells are all right, and ghosts are already animated--as long as you didn't make them yourself, they can't get you on that account (but again, you might get hunted down for general villainy).
Same goes for reading and controlling minds--Humanoids only, but most nonhuman minds are too weird for any mortal man to mess with in Dresden's world.

@Amotis: Well, consensus reality isn't that powerful in the Dresden Files. Belief can empower artifacts, and believing in yourself (or the deity of your choice, if you and He both swing that way) is a pretty big part of doing anything, but that's all we've seen it do so far.


"no divination", no offensive transmutation,

Actually, you just can't time travel or look into the future yourself. Looking into the present is fine, as is asking oracular spirits for help--so moment of prescience, foresight, and vision are the only Core spells that skirt the line--unless you cast them as divine spells, in which case you're fine. And, again, nonhumanoids are fair game for all your Polymorph-school spells, and you can use them on yourself with no trouble--and really, isn't that whole line ridiculously broken anyway?

More info on the Laws of Magic here (0 (http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/news/archives/2007/06/the_laws_of_mag.php), 1 (http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/news/archives/2007/06/the_laws_of_mag_1.php), 2, (http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/news/archives/2007/06/post.php) 3 (http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/news/archives/2007/06/the_laws_of_mag_2.php)--eh, you can find the rest yourself).

penguinreich
2008-01-11, 05:18 PM
Well, I was mainly asking about just a class with the mechanics of Dresden, not one set in the world of Dresden. So you could kill with magic, and other such things that are 'inadvisable' in the series.

So that would most likely have a Mana/ability point system, but would it be mana for a day, an hour, or per encounter. Also there would be certain items that you would need for certain spells. Some spell would be on the fly, while others need to be prepared. Throw in some rituals. Most combat spells need a focus (his 'magic staff'). How am i doing so far?

So how would you go about learning new spells?

Unscrewed
2008-01-11, 05:44 PM
what about a PRC for the enforcer type folks. . . (what are they called again?)

They're call Wardens. They have really cool silver swords that disrupt any wards they touch.

As for learning new spells, I'd do it the sorcerer way. Seems to closest flavor wise.

With foci for spells should be divided by school and descriptor. In the books, Dresden uses his staff for Force and Wind spells, a bracelet to create a shield (abjuration), a blasting rod for Fire spells, and he uses a cane the few times he does Earth Magic.

So I guess the caster should have a different foci for each school he uses. In addition, Dresden can use magic without his foci, but it's harder. So maybe the foci grant a bonus when they're used, or negate some sort of penalty?

StickMan
2008-01-11, 10:16 PM
OK time for a shameless self plug. Awhile back I made a class that blurs the spontaneous/prepared spell line. It might work well for this so I give to you the: Mage. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67908) Notably the tread is not dead yet so feel free to post in it.

A spell point system may also work well using the sorcerer class. Converting my class to spell points might destroy its balance.

Rumpus
2008-01-12, 05:38 AM
I haven't read Dead Beat, but paradox is more reality lashing out if the consensus of the non-mage beings contradicts the magic. ... Though I recall that Dresden does have almost some paradox spirits, or what not, falling him around and I remember hearing that his openness about magic ain't the highly regarded among the other mages. Which may or may not lead back to paradox.

Right, I understand, but Paradox as you describe it does not exist in the Dresden Files Universe. Most magical beings (especially older ones who remember the Inquisition) do their best to hide from the mortal world, but Harry's in the phone book under "Wizards". This is one of the reasons the old guard on the Council don't care for him.

Not sure what you're thinking of for the Paradox Spirits. [Spoilers!] He bargained his life away to a Fairy, he's on death row probation with the White Council on and off, demons take an unhealthy interest in him because of his family history, and certain fallen angels either want to bring him to the dark side or do unspeakable things to him in retribution. Oh, and there's Bob the Skull. No Paradox Spirits, though.

jindra34
2008-01-12, 08:40 PM
Dresden does fine as a sorcerer classed character until you consider the width of Dresden's spell repitoire. He knows (or at least can knows someone who does) a large volume of spells though most take serious time and money to cast. How would you represent that.

JaronK
2008-01-12, 08:49 PM
Dresden is a Gestalt Binder 20//Warlock 17/Hellfire Warlock 3. Seriously, it works perfectly, though you'd need to take Obtain Familiar for Bob. He uses circles that give him power, binds daemons, and launches blast of eldritch energy. Occasionally, he lets loose with hellfire.

JaronK

magic_unlocked
2008-01-16, 04:04 AM
From what little i understand, based from the TV show and the posts here is that the core mechanic would have him needing a Focus for each school. The "boomstick" for evocation, a bracelet/bangle for abjuration and prolly a skull/shrunken head for necromancy. Among others, subject to DM speculation and player creativeness. Perhaps the Focus should have a GP cost? Like, it should cost 5 GP per spell level? Though, this may hurt low-level "Dresden-Wizards" a lot.

Perhaps this is the Sorcerer class in spell slots but with a "domain" spell to represent the prepared spell? I think the extra spell slots is moderated by the requirement of the many Focuses. Also, I don't think this "class" should be allowed to be Specialist Wizards. As for the spells to "fit" into the Prepared Slot, why not let this class gain another spell every level, but this extra spell can only fit into the prepared slot?

As for the mana system, why not use the Unearthed Arcana spot for sorcerers? Though, that may be a bit much, but, I'm not too sure about that...