Team Empire V.S. TEAM Sith Empire

[Midnighter1021]

i was playing KoToR today and I got to thinking, who would win In a tag team match Vader and Sidious vs Malak and Revan.

and let it begin

[king korath]

Malak and Revan hands down. They almost destroyed the republic from the outside while Palpatine had to become supreme chancellor and even from that position he had to start a war to spread the jedi thin. Also neither Malak nor Revan has a serious injury besides the missing jaw while Vader must wear a survival suit.

[Paragon Badger]

The sequel of KotOR pretty much diefies Revan, from being a strategic mastermind to corrupting every single Jedi and soldier under his command (save for two, but they were immune to the force, by virtue of lacking it entirely)

The Empire lost Yavin AND Endor.

Revan would have kept the rebellion alive enough to give the constant sense of 'crisis' that Palpatine used to keep control, but at the same time, the rebels would have never achieved such dramatic victories. It would have been, 'Oh, you tried to destroy the Death Star? Oooh, so close, but try again, later, mmk?'

Malak...maybe; he was clumsy and destroyed too many planets, as well as overusing the Star Forge. :smalltongue: Imagine if he had the Death Star! The whole galaxy would be rubble. >.<

[Dervag]

Malak and Revan hands down. They almost destroyed the republic from the outside while Palpatine had to become supreme chancellor and even from that position he had to start a war to spread the jedi thin. Also neither Malak nor Revan has a serious injury besides the missing jaw while Vader must wear a survival suit.Malak and Revan were only able to almost destroy the Republic because they found a secret weapon that was not available to Palpatine.

[Oslecamo]

Malak and Revan were only able to almost destroy the Republic because they found a secret weapon that was not available to Palpatine.

Even if Palpatine had a secret super weapon he would have managed to use it in a worthless way.

Let's look at the death star:

1-Needs hours to circle around the planet so it can shoot at the moon...Wait, why don't just shoot at the planet?

2-It's design is filled with holes. Literally. An enemy space ship can enter and shoot the vital control system with a good missile, and make the whole station go boom. Also there are plenty of passages whitout railways, and plenty of pits directly connected to the central generator to where you can throw your enemies. Who the hell designed that thing????

3-If the resources spent building the death Star would have been spent training the stormtroopers to shoot decently Palpatine would have been truly unstopable.

[Mando Knight]

The Jedi were actually capable of trapping and stopping Revan: remember that fight between Revan and Bastila?

If you give the ancient Sith the Star Forge, then you have to give the Empire the Death Star. Remember that Revan does not have a plucky droid sidekick until after his memory is wiped and so would have a harder time finding the Death Star plans.

Revan would not have saved the Death Star from Luke Skywalker, since he has, as of yet, shown no innate ace piloting skills. Skills that nearly allowed Vader to kill his son, except that Solo came in with a lucky shot that disrupted Vader's wingmen which in turn knocked Vader out of the trench.

Sidious was also a tactical genius: he managed to create two massive, loyal armies without the Jedi noticing until too late, started a war with said armies while giving the Jedi some semblance of control over one, and then when the Jedi nearly won... BAM! Their army turns against them, brutally and efficiently wiping out the Jedi Order save for a few lucky masters who, for the most part, went into hiding for the next two decades.

He also managed to control the galaxy for nearly twenty five years, and would have done so until Vader pulled off a coup, had it not been for Han Solo and Luke Skywalker, first at Yavin, then at Endor.

Palpatine is also a skilled swordsman: he managed to kill several Masters alone with surprising agility, and managed to fight both Mace Windu and Yoda to a standstill.

Malak is an idiot, and Vader could kill him in about the same amount of time that it takes Revan to do so in the final fight in KotOR. Then, with Master v. Master and Apprentice v. Apprentice, Vader leaps from the corpse of Malak to aid his master in finishing off Revan.

Furthermore, Sidious can hide his presence in the Force: how else can you explain that the Jedi Masters could not detect his status as a Force-user in time to save the galaxy from the Clone Wars?

EDIT: ninja'd. Now, think about the Death Star versus what Revan has. Does Revan have the firepower to annihilate a planet? No. Just level cities: Taris survives, and rebuilds, eventually once again becoming a planet-wide city by the time of the Empire. Dantooine also rebuilds, though does not seem to be an academy for the Jedi Order ever again. The Star Forge was infiltrated even more easily than the first Death Star: the Ebon Hawk was able to land in the Star Forge, even though Bastila and Malak knew Revan was on board. No one knew that Vader's son or his master were on board the Falcon, nor did they know that they were on a mission to save Leia. Furthermore, the Star Forge was destroyed by a Republic fleet, even though Malak had a fleet there himself. Neither Death Star could have been destroyed from such a frontal assault. The first was destroyed by an excessively lucky shot by a Force user, and the second was destroyed because it wasn't done yet.

[Emperor Ing]

Well, Sith Empire has a space station, the Star Forge, the size of the death star in unknown regions that can build an infinite number of ships, and droids for no costs
The Empire has bigass ships, and the death star

I think that AS LONG AS THE STAR FORGE REMAINS ALIVE, The sith win hands down.

And Revan is a lot better than Vader. :smallbiggrin:

[NerfTW]

Even if Palpatine had a secret super weapon he would have managed to use it in a worthless way.

Let's look at the death star:

1-Needs hours to circle around the planet so it can shoot at the moon...Wait, why don't just shoot at the planet?

2-It's design is filled with holes. Literally. An enemy space ship can enter and shoot the vital control system with a good missile, and make the whole station go boom. Also there are plenty of passages whitout railways, and plenty of pits directly connected to the central generator to where you can throw your enemies. Who the hell designed that thing????

3-If the resources spent building the death Star would have been spent training the stormtroopers to shoot decently Palpatine would have been truly unstopable.


It's not really relevent. Sidious and Vader were made for movies in an era when the good guy had to win and the bad guy had to suck.

But also, the Death Star couldn't have destroyed the rebel base by shooting the planet. It's a gas giant. The explosion wouldn't have affected anything, and then they'd have to recharge. At worst, the moon would have been thrown out of orbit, forcing them to chase it, hit a moving target, and give the rebels even more time to evacuate. A planet knocked out of orbit is still habitable for years, depending on how much of a greenhouse affect it has.

Stormtroopers could shoot just fine when not aiming at PLOT CHARACTERS (tm).

Again, it's really not fair to consider characters written 25 years apart, for completely different cultures and audiences. I'd dare say they're about even, since Bioware stated they modeled the plot closely on that of the movies. Both Sith Lords formed an army in a short period of time and in secret. One succeeded, one didn't. Both were betrayed by thier apprentice.

[Nerd-o-rama]

To be fair to the Stormtroopers, Revan's Sithtroopers couldn't shoot for crap either. At least not when I played.

Anyway, I think I might give this one to the Sidious/Vader team, just because Malak is useless deadweight: an abysmal strategist and a mediocre (if potentially resilient) swordsman. In a swordfight, Revan is skilled and resourceful, but one great duellist and a mediocre duellist vs. two great duellists...smart money's on Sidious and Vader. If Revan can distract Vader somehow, perhaps putting his legedary charisma to use to convince him he doesn't need to fight, Revan and Sidious are pretty evenly matched.

In a strategic battle, given the full resources of the Galactic Empire and the full resources of the Second Sith Empire, Palpatine's forces have an advantage early. If Revan can keep the Star Forge hidden, he can catch up in troop numbers and make respectable hit-and-fade attacks. Once the Emperor manages to find Rakata Prime, though, he'll probably have a whole fleet plus the Death Star right on his doorstep. Then, it's basically down to who boards whose battlestation and assassinates whom mid-battle. Without a leader, both sides tend to go to pieces. As Revan would be on the defensive, he's left at a disadvantage since he has to be there commanding his forces (seeing as Malak is demonstrably retarded when it comes to defending that particular installation). Unless Palpatine comes along with the fleet to gloat...his overconfidence is his weakness, after all.

Tough to call, but the advantages stack up on the side of the Galactic Empire.

[NerfTW]

I think it would also depend on the point in the character's lives. Vader would defend the Emperor with his life, right up until he discovered Luke was still alive. He did try to convince Luke to help him overthrow the Emperor in ESB.

At that point, he probably would have teamed up with Revan against the Emperor.

[Dervag]

Even if Palpatine had a secret super weapon he would have managed to use it in a worthless way.

Let's look at the death star:

1-Needs hours to circle around the planet so it can shoot at the moon...Wait, why don't just shoot at the planet?On account of it's a gas giant and it won't explode the way a solid planet will?


2-It's design is filled with holes. Literally. An enemy space ship can enter and shoot the vital control system with a good missile, and make the whole station go boom. Also there are plenty of passages whitout railways, and plenty of pits directly connected to the central generator to where you can throw your enemies. Who the hell designed that thing????The pit connected to the central generator seems to have been a unique feature of Palpatine's chamber. Beats me why he included it, but I suspect he insisted on that feature. That was pretty stupid, yeah. As for the 'no railings' thing, you're right and that was a mistake, but it's also a fixable mistake. Welding railings onto the walkways isn't hard, but it's the sort of step that gets left until after the ship is ready to fly when you're in a hurry.

As for "full of holes," I can think of some reasons to want hollow spaces. They tend to limit the transmission of shocks that could warp corridors or machinery. They limit the effects of thermal expansion and contraction- always a problem when building planetoid-sized constructs in a vacuum. And distance is one of the best and cheapest radiation shields known to man. Since you're already committed to making the thing huge so you can put a planetbusting beam weapon aboard, why not add a kilometer or two of open space around the reactor core?

Well, first of all, I suspect that nobody would have been able to fly inside the DS2 and make it go boom once it was operational and its own shields were up. The thing was still under construction. Also, forgetting to install torpedo baffles on what amounts to a warship funnel is by no means out of line with the kinds of mistakes real-life naval designers have made (look at WWI British battlecruisers for an example of a real doozy of a design flaw).


3-If the resources spent building the death Star would have been spent training the stormtroopers to shoot decently Palpatine would have been truly unstopable.Keep in mind that the rebels were supposed to escape. Stormtroopers were actually pretty good shots when fighting an opponent they were trying to kill (remember the Jawas on Tatooine? Or the boarding at the beginning of Episode IV?).


Well, Sith Empire has a space station, the Star Forge, the size of the death star in unknown regions that can build an infinite number of ships, and droids for no costs
The Empire has bigass ships, and the death star

I think that AS LONG AS THE STAR FORGE REMAINS ALIVE, The sith win hands down.

And Revan is a lot better than Vader. :smallbiggrin:On the other hand, if the Empire can find the Star Forge they can kill it with the Death Star much more easily than the 'Old Empire' can kill the Death Star with ships built from the Star Forge. That superlaser has a tremendous range. I suspect the Death Star could kill the Star Forge from beyond the range of its own disruption field. Or, for that matter, blow up Rakata and disable the disruptor field that way.

On a side note, it occured to me that Revan predates the Rule of Two, and would feel no qualms about enlisting Vader. Vader's fairly biddable; I wouldn't be surprised at all if he changed sides.

[Celitholar]

Vader=The Chosen One
Enough said.

[Talkkno]

KOTR ships are much less powerful then a Star Destroyer, consirder that the players had time to get out of Taris when Malek bombarded it, while the burning of Cammas, not one person got off the person the planet alive, it was considered more ecomonicial to terraform a barren planet to Cammas's specifications then terraform Cammas, demonstrating the speed and lethality of a Imperial Base Delta Zero far beyond Darth Malak could muster.

[Talkkno]

Keep in mind, Darth Revan only has the Star Forge, the Empire can easily churn out tons of small Death Stars given that a pitiable Hutt crime lord that a sliver of a fraction of what the Empire could command, built the superlaser and the power source required to power it.
And to counter all stormtroopers are crap debates.

"During the Endor battle, the most likely reason for the lack of grenade use is volatility and simple overconfidence. Inside the bunker, with its important equipment and the Rebels' explosive charges all over the walls, it would have obviously been insane to use grenades. Outside the bunker, they were felled by simple overconfidence. Their light armament reveals deplorable overconfidence (the scout troopers had handguns, the stormtroopers had carbines, and they didn't bother carrying any of the heavy weapons we saw in ANH or TESB), so it's really no surprise that they didn't bother carrying grenades. Before we leap to the conclusion that such foolishness is impossible in the Emperor's "finest troops", I would urge readers to study the example of the US Army's elite Rangers, SEALs, and Delta Force commandos in Somalia. During a disastrous mission in which two Blackhawk helicopters were shot down, they demonstrated exactly the kind of overconfidence that I'm describing. They arrogantly performed what should have been a night operation in broad daylight, and they didn't bother bringing any "unnecessary" dead weight, such as water canteens, bayonets, or night-sight equipment. Some of them even removed the armour plates from their flak jackets, so they would be more comfortable in the heat! Worse yet, mission security was horrendous; Somali staff at the U.S. Embassy easily discovered the time and place of the mission, and forwarded this information to Aidid's men! The problems didn't even stop there; they had no heavy reinforcements or armour in case of serious resistance, and they only had one rescue team, which became a huge problem when not one, but two choppers went down. They couldn't even co-ordinate their activities; the Rangers and Delta Force commandos butted heads over tactics and chain of command, and an Orion spy plane wasn't permitted to give direct instructions to the men on the ground even though it was the only platform with a clear view of what was happening. The litany of mistakes continued with the rescue convoys, which literally got lost and ambushed en route to the crash site because of unfamiliarity with the city streets and poor direction from the helicopters above. In the confusion, the Americans fired on anyone with a gun, and then anyone who was around someone with a gun, and eventually, at anything that moved, thus causing hundreds of civilian casualties. A simple mission to kidnap two men turned into a chaotic 12 hour firefight, in which nearly a hundred American soldiers were killed or wounded. If this were a fictional war story, it would have been lambasted for being hopelessly unrealistic. People would say "no real soldiers would be so incompetent". But these men were not incompetent; they were overconfident and inadequately prepared. They demonstrated to the world (at least, the part of the world that reads books instead of getting all their information from action movies) that even the best trained, best equipped soldiers can still can be stymied by poor preparation and the inherent difficulties of combat in difficult and unfamiliar terrain."

[Nerd-o-rama]

But they're still terrible shots.

[Premsyl]

I think this has been left out, but I feel like it plays a major role in the outcome of this battle. That's that the SITH empire indoctrinated many, many of it's recruits as dark jedi, or at least dark apprentices. This is a double edged sword. How many stormtroopers can a single dark jedi kill? On the other hand, the nature of the dark side is to betray one another, which really led to the downfall of the Sith empire anyway.

I believe, though, that in a battle/war, or whatever, that the Sith empire would win based on the use of Dark Jedi. Luke and Anakin Skywalker were ace-pilots due in part to their use of the force, so the Death Star is moot, as it would have likely been destroyed in much the same way. I'm not even accounting for the Star Forge. Malak is a bitch, granted, so if it came down to blows, Vader v. Malak... Vader would own Malak. Revan's a badass, but Vader... I dunno. I don't believe that Vader would win it for the Galactic Empire, though.

As a conquering imperial government, though, the Galactic Empire is a stronger enduring force. Simply because they rely less on the Dark Side and more on domination, conscription, and government. Emperor Papaltine is a politician first and a sith lord second. The Sith empire was doomed from it's inception, because dark jedi can't go any time at all without trying to kill each other.

[Arcwell]

The Sith empire have a legion of Dark Jedi which I suspect would be a pain in the Empires side and a fleet that doesn't really have to worry about resources due thanks to the Star Forge which is hidden in an pretty unknown location. Assuming Malak doesn't try anything silly you have two incredibly powerful dark Jedi to compete and one incredibly good leader and tactician .

The Empire has Vader, the man who could of became the most powerful force user in the galaxy but never really reached his given potential thanks to some physical and emotional crippling, I would argue that Malak and Vader would be a very close match.

The Emperor is without doubt the most powerful Sith since the destruction of the Ancient Sith and he's hardly the type who enjoys a nice clean fight either. He could probably take down Revan and Malak if he was pushed and has the agents of the Emporors hand to look after him if things get to much.
The empire doesn't have to worry so much about manpower thanks to cloning and the Deathstar is a major threat to Revan and Malak if they decided to just go nuts and destroy every planet his troops inhabitated.

In a straight battle army vs army battle I would probably say the Empire but it would be close.

[Dervag]

But they're still terrible shots.Actually, in most of the places we see them being terrible shots, they are either suppressed (which is bad for everyone's marksmanship), or they are actually supposed to let their target escape alive (Death Star escape).

In the Death Star, stormtroopers miss constantly, but they aren't actually supposed to kill the heroes; they're herding them back towards their ship so that they can track the Millenium Falcon to the rebel base.


The empire doesn't have to worry so much about manpower thanks to cloning and the Deathstar is a major threat to Revan and Malak if they decided to just go nuts and destroy every planet his troops inhabitated.

In a straight battle army vs army battle I would probably say the Empire but it would be close.For that matter, the Death Star is also effective in a fleet battle. The Sith can't destroy or conquer a planet except by attacking it with overwhelming capital ship strength and battering down its planetary shields. So they have to concentrate most of their forces in a few large concentrations to overwhelm enemy defenses, and the Death Star can do a lot of damage to those concentrations.

Sure, the Sith can build a potentially infinite fleet, but the rate at which they can build ships and weapons is still finite. Military technology also appears to be at least a little better in the Star Wars era in general (planetary shields, especially, have gotten so strong that the Empire needs something like the Death Star to crack them without a long siege). That's a serious handicap from the perspective of a fleet of 'small' capital ships trying to take individual planets, because it forces them to spend more time hammering on the shield for each planet. Time in which the Empire can bring in a powerful fleet of reserves or reinforcements.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Important thing: Can the fighters be from any period in their lives? If, for example, the Palpatine fighting is the one from Dark empire which can conjure force storms, it's an almost de facto win for the empire team.

[Paragon Badger]

The Jedi were actually capable of trapping and stopping Revan: remember that fight between Revan and Bastila?

She would have been boned if it wasn't for Malak's opportunistic strike, though. Notice how easily Revan dispatched some of her comrades. :smalltongue:


As a conquering imperial government, though, the Galactic Empire is a stronger enduring force. Simply because they rely less on the Dark Side and more on domination, conscription, and government. Emperor Papaltine is a politician first and a sith lord second. The Sith empire was doomed from it's inception, because dark jedi can't go any time at all without trying to kill each other.

Despite all of Malak's shortcomings, the games do state that his greatest strengths were A. His command over the force, and B. His force of personality. The Dark Jedi stayed fairly in line (enough to continue the fight against the Republic) while he was in charge, but quickly destroyed one another when there was a vacancy for the spot of numero uno.


Important thing: Can the fighters be from any period in their lives? If, for example, the Palpatine fighting is the one from Dark empire which can conjure force storms, it's an almost de facto win for the empire team.

Yeah...not much they could do to stop that. And with Anakin in his prime, too. >.>

Still, Without that advantage, I'd say Revan wins simply because of his strategic genius. Palpatine was a politician, and Vader was a warrior- neither had a particularly strategic mindset. Revan and Malak had a decade of frontline-experience as not only warriors, but leaders, commanding a third of the republic fleet at one point (And using said fleet to turn on the Republic)

If you doubt Revan's strategic brilliance, just talk to Canderous in either games, He's got a little mancrush for the Sith Lord. Kreia also idolizes the guy, and even admits he was superior to her a few times (Mainly, her lack of leadership.) Revan started with a 'disorganized and demoralized rabble army' and overcame Star Wars' equivalent of Spartans. With the Star Forge at his disposal...

Also, note that Revan and Malak had better PR than Palpatine (at least during the times of rebellion). In fact, Revan and Malak were a rebel alliance, against a fairly decent non-tyrannical government, too! And they still managed to get a constant influx of defectors to their side, even a certain main character's son!

As for personal combat... I'd say Revan would be wise enough to bring Malak as well as at least a dozen of his best Sith warriors with him if he was going to take on Palpatine and Vader in combat. Revan has the number advantage in force-adepts. Like, 10,000+

[Emperor Ing]

In the lightsaber fight, Darth Revan and Malak vs Darth Sidious and Vader, Im really gonna have to give it to Revan and Malak. Malak might die, but if Mace Windu can show the emperor that he can be beat, then Revan might fulfil the obligation. The Emperor only managed to kill windu AFTER Anakin's intervention.

3rd Star Wars trilogy spoiler Ive heard rumors that Windu might return in the 3rd starwars trilogy

[Talkkno]

Still, Without that advantage, I'd say Revan wins simply because of his strategic genius. Palpatine was a politician, and Vader was a warrior- neither had a particularly strategic mindset. Revan and Malak had a decade of frontline-experience as not only warriors, but leaders, commanding a third of the republic fleet at one point (And using said fleet to turn on the Republic)

If you doubt Revan's strategic brilliance, just talk to Canderous in either games, He's got a little mancrush for the Sith Lord. Kreia also idolizes the guy, and even admits he was superior to her a few times (Mainly, her lack of leadership.) Revan started with a 'disorganized and demoralized rabble army' and overcame Star Wars' equivalent of Spartans. With the Star Forge at his disposal...


*Cough* Thrawn *Cough* Thrawn didn't have any super weapons and he manged to bring the New Republic to a stand still using 3 Star Destroyers and a few rocks.

[Talkkno]

In the lightsaber fight, Darth Revan and Malak vs Darth Sidious and Vader, Im really gonna have to give it to Revan and Malak. Malak might die, but if Mace Windu can show the emperor that he can be beat, then Revan might fulfil the obligation. The Emperor only managed to kill windu AFTER Anakin's intervention.
But the Emperor can come back from the dead if he is defeated.

I3rd Star Wars trilogy spoiler Ive heard rumors that Windu might return in the 3rd starwars trilogy

You don't actually buy Supershadow's website do you? Not accusing you of anything, just curious.

[turkishproverb]

*Cough* Thrawn *Cough* Thrawn didn't have any super weapons and he manged to bring the New Republic to a stand still using 3 Star Destroyers and a few rocks.

Wait a minute...your right


Team empire would logically include thrawn.

THerefore. Team empire wins.

[Zenthar]

In the lightsaber fight, Darth Revan and Malak vs Darth Sidious and Vader, Im really gonna have to give it to Revan and Malak. Malak might die, but if Mace Windu can show the emperor that he can be beat, then Revan might fulfil the obligation. The Emperor only managed to kill windu AFTER Anakin's intervention.

3rd Star Wars trilogy spoiler Ive heard rumors that Windu might return in the 3rd starwars trilogy

If that's from Supershadows site, it's not true.