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Vespe Ratavo
2008-01-16, 08:43 PM
(Note: If you don't know what AMEN or HALO are, head over to Structured Games and click one of the threads that says something along the lines of "(AMEN or HALO) (number): (Witty comment)." Then again, if you don't already know what they are, you probably aren't very interested in this.)

So this is the AMEN/HALO d20. Let me say first that we have the permission of both the leader of HALO and some significant members of AMEN to use the groups. We will not use any characters or make any reference to them (except maybe minor ones) unless the owner of said character allows it.

Here are the ground rules (they're not confirmed, and subject to change, if you have any questions or changes please ask).

1: Maximum character level is 50. If you'd like to go less than this, fine, but you won't be given anything special.
2: Gestalts are not allowed. Epic + Gestalt = Bad.
3: A mixture of D&D/d20 Modern rules will be used, mainly for the d20 Modern classes. Where they significantly differ, D&D takes precedence. (May need some balancing)

Here's what we need and what we have done:

Classes (Prestige and Otherwise): One. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3802269) Something tells me we're going to need a lot more.
Factions: AMEN begun, need HALO, maybe a few more.
Feats: None
Skills: None
Maps (of the bases, maybe The town [Town?] at the base of the volcano): None
Extra Rules: None
Other: None

AMEN
The Association of the Malicious, Evil, and Nefarious
Half corporation, half super villain base, half battle royale, all bad at math. AMEN is one of the most powerful organizations in the world, and have access to experimental technology, ancient magic, and the pure military might of a large country. Unfortunately, they spend their time fighting each other instead of their enemies...

Agenda: Spread evil and corruption, take over the world, maintain profit, and have fun.
Structure: Small and feuding central council of super villains that spends most of it's time laying around and watching TV controls mostly autonomous branches of mercenaries, girl scouts, stock traders, ninjas, zombies, etc.
Symbol: (None, any ideas?)
Most Common Allegiance: Evil

Overview

AMEN was created when an insane Drow lord named Psyke D wanted to create an army to destroy the surface world. Unfortunately, instead of the highly trained army he was hoping for, he got a few lazy supervillains. He vanished soon after, likely to go get a refund from Armies R' Us.

Meanwhile, the few remaining members set to expanding the volcano base that Psyke D had left them, and eventually spread underwater, deep, deep underground, and the kitchen was even in another dimension.

Eventually, super villains from far and wide came to join. Today, the organization mainly is content to sit around and watch TV, with the occasional attempt at doing something, but these are usually ended fairly quickly.

AMEN was the original big, alignment based organization and still one of the most prominent, EVIL (Evil Villain Intervention League) and NEON (New Neutrality Network) were crushed rather quickly, although HALO (Heroic, Anti Lawbreaking Organization) is quickly becoming a thorn in their side.

Structure
The main members of AMEN are the super villains. They number about 20 or so, with a few other members who are rarely seen, and a few ex-members. The "leader" is officially Saurous, although he holds no real authority. The members mainly do whatever they feel like. The main members are prone to arguing, conflict, espionage, betrayal, and out and out violence at the drop of a hat.

The legions of nameless soldiers, pies, zombies, etc. only have an allegiance to those that created/hired them.

Bases of Operation
The main AMEN base is hidden inside a volcano, so as to keep it a secret from snooping NPC's, but anyone who really wants to can find it. The main living area is where the AMENites hang out most of the time, and a great many of the rooms go unused. The base extends hundreds of miles underground, and the lower levels are warded against teleporting; no one who's tried to go all the way down to the central power station has ever returned.

Aside from the underground part, a few levels down there is a bathysphere port to the underwater base. If you've ever played Bioshock you have the basic idea: steampunk underwater utopia gone to hell, filled with mutated former members. Vespe is really the only one who goes down there, no one is quite sure what he does there, although based on his personality he probably just kills the mutants for fun.

There is also a fallback base in the mountains to the north, without most of the luxuries of the main one, and would only be used in EXTREME emergency (world wars wouldn't be enough).

Resources

AMEN has access to millions of dollars worth of resources: the finest technology and the best spells are available to them. In one of their few true group efforts, their individual fortunes have been pooled together into a large vault, filled with cartoony-looking bags of gold, as well as piles and piles of coins. Unfortunately, due to a mistake in programming, the AMENites must break into their own vault to obtain anything more than petty cash. The defenses are self repairing, so simply destroying them won't work.

In general, anything on the regular equipment tables (for D&D or d20 Modern) may be requisitioned (using the requisition rules). Anything not on those tables must be procured by other means. Usually, this means befriending the specialist in that topic (i.e. Magtok for ultra-tech, Saruous for necromancy, Moon Called for mind-scarring-anime, etc).

All members of AMEN have the AMEN Life Insurance plan, which insures you never die. If you don't have your own way of resurrecting yourself, you can use the AMEN clone banks free of charge. You can change any of your feats, levels, race, gender, etc. by simply putting in the changes into your genetic material (requires a DC 0 Computer Use check) and killing yourself. The downside to this is that anyone else can modify your genetic code as well...which is why most members stay away from the clone banks.

Members

The members of AMEN range vastly, from mad scientists to necromancers to rock stars to everything else.

Vespe Ratavo - Rock Star, Barbarian, Military Leader (http://www.roguepenguin.com/castellar/profiler/view.php?id=1409)

Any other ideas for sections here?

Lady Tialait
2008-01-16, 08:50 PM
ooo, I'm the Alchemist of HALO, and i'm a old hand at DMing..hence a okay hand at Homebrewing...i'm soo into this...

*snuggles it*

hmm...time to try to stat out the Tiamite..

PirateMonk
2008-01-16, 09:19 PM
Should I try to come up with a Munchkin class of some sort, try to fit one of the normal classes to PM, or just not participate?

Uncle Festy
2008-01-16, 09:55 PM
Hm. Uncle's probably a Necromancer of some sort, but I don't know what PrCs. Suggestions?

Raistlin1040
2008-01-16, 10:01 PM
How're we going to do stat gen?

Also here's Raistlin's race (Made up by Rex and I a while back)

Demon (Fallen Angel) Template

+2 Nat. Armor
-1 All saving throws
Fire Subtype

+2 STR, +2 INT, +2 CHA

LA+1

I assume LA won't really matter? Assuming not, Raistlin is a Bard (Harbringer Variant) 21/Rogue 11/Hard Rock Rockstar 10

Inigo Montoya
2008-01-16, 10:39 PM
Meh. If anyone knows what the heck Inigo is, I'm in.

Vespe Ratavo
2008-01-16, 10:41 PM
Inigo...I'd imagine is a duelist/rogue.

Raistlin...we're either going to have to scale your character down, or scale the levels up. We'll probably end up doing the latter...

My character WAS almost done...but seeing as how we might be changing the levels, I'm probably gonna have to level him up...

So, any new choices for max level? Raistlin appears to be 44....50, maybe?

wadledo
2008-01-16, 10:54 PM
Yea, I'm a Waddle Doo:

Small size
Low light vision
Immunity to ingested poisons
Single eye receives -2 on ranged attacks, search checks, and spot checks
+2 racial bonus on Sense Motive and Diplomacy checks
+2 Constitution, +2 Charisma, -2 Dexterity
LA +0

And my ninja friend here has
36 ninja//Sorcerer 11/Arcane Trickster 9/Shadowdancer 10/Birdlord 3/Fatespinner 3 Waddle Doo Worm That Walks.

Lady Tialait
2008-01-16, 10:58 PM
If we cap at 44 i'll say

20 Druid/10 Master of Many Forms/5 Heirophant/9 Bard For Tialait.

Inigo Montoya
2008-01-16, 11:01 PM
Inigo...I'd imagine is a duelist/rogue.


Thanks, I'll give it some thought tonight.

Shas aia Toriia
2008-01-18, 07:56 AM
Can I suggest something? Change anything regarding "levels" to ECL, otherwise I could be a paragon, half-celestial leshay all of a sudden, with my 21 levels, but have my CR jacked up to about 50.

Secondly, if we're doing gestalt, we should stay away from epic, because at that point we have double the epic options to choose from. Don't get me wrong, I love gestalt, but if we do that, maybe only go up to level 20.

Vespe Ratavo
2008-01-19, 09:49 PM
Okay, so no gestalt, and epic going up to 50.

*scraps character sheet since it had gestalt*
*sighs*
*gets to work on another*

Raistlin1040
2008-01-19, 09:56 PM
Can we go level 21? Because at level 21, I get a boost to my harbringer music, and if I can't I have to either cherrypick a level in a PrC or take 20 levels of rogue.

Vespe Ratavo
2008-01-19, 09:57 PM
You do realize that the current level cap is 50, right? *needs to change the first post*

Also, nice Ziggy avatar. :smallbiggrin:

Raistlin1040
2008-01-19, 10:00 PM
Whoops! Thought you said no epic.

Raistlin: Harbringer 21/Rogue 19/ (Hard Rock or Glam) Rockstar 10.

Does LA matter?

Vespe Ratavo
2008-01-19, 10:07 PM
I don't think so. Check this out. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)

I think we can all more or less just assume that any character with level adjustment has done that and be rid of it.

Also, if you can't decide if you're going to be Hard Rock or Glam, Vespe's going to be Hard Rock (should that effect your decision).

PirateMonk
2008-01-19, 10:23 PM
So, any ideas on classes for PM?

Raistlin1040
2008-01-19, 10:52 PM
Yeah, I'm leaning a bit towards Glam.

PM should be a halfling (The subrace with the STR bonus) Fighter 20/Cleric 20/(Useful PrC) 10

edit: Also, I'm going to get started on my character sheet tonight, so I think that we need a wealth level.

Marek
2008-01-19, 10:59 PM
Meh. If anyone knows what the heck Inigo is, I'm in.

Not afilliated with either group, but just thought i'd say he probably has a couple levels in the Dashing Swordsman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29882) PrC

Vespe Ratavo
2008-01-19, 11:16 PM
Wealth? I honestly have no idea what to do there.

Help? :smalleek:

Some possiblities:

(1) Use the Wealth-By-Level guidelines (which I don't have)
(2) Use the requisitioning rules for d20 Modern, and replace all mentions of "Department-7" with AMEN/HALO
(3) Say "screw it," and let everyone take whatever they want
(4) Something else

Raistlin1040
2008-01-19, 11:47 PM
I'd say that everyone should have what they want, within reason. No artifacts, but everything else is fair game. I'll look up the wealth by level guidelines for Epic, but it'll most likely be a huge number.

Vespe Ratavo
2008-01-19, 11:51 PM
Yeah...sounds good. Are a +10 Lightning and Fire Blast Rapier +10 Icy and Sonic Blast Rapier within reason? :smallconfused: :smalltongue: They're perfectly acceptable epic weapons...

Raistlin1040
2008-01-19, 11:55 PM
I don't know.

I can't find epic wealth by level in the SRD so I guess it's whatever.

Raistlin1040
2008-01-20, 01:47 AM
Double post. How are we generating stats?

Vespe Ratavo
2008-01-20, 01:50 AM
Well...I just did what fit Vespe (i.e. Very high Cha, terrible Wis, average Int and Con, Good Str and Dex), so just pick them, within reason.

Also, Epic Leadership and Legendary Commander FTW. I can have a cohort of 34th level, and 32,000 followers of first level, 3200 of second level, 1600 of third, 800 of fourth, 400 of fifth, 200 of sixth, 100 of seventh, 50 of eigth, 25 of ninth, 13 of tenth, 7 of 11th, 4 of 12th, 2 of 13th...

38,401 Followers in all. Holy boop.

Must...resist...temptation...to...terribly...abuse ...feats...

Anyway, Vespe is done, I'll fine tune him and post him tomorrow.

Shas aia Toriia
2008-01-20, 08:16 AM
ECL 50?!? Aaaargh!! That's far too high a level for actual play!!

Also, are you positive you want to do away with level adjustment?
'Cause there's a few templates in Epic Handbook I'd like to take. . . And a new race for me to be. . .

*coughcoughECLover100coughcough*

And if we're going to such a high level, it be time for me to some levels in Divine Emmisary. And I'll have enough feats to get Miracle at will. :smallsmile:

Please, I beg of you, cut down the ECL!!! And gestalt 20th/21st level characters would be fun!

Uncle Festy
2008-01-20, 09:13 AM
Yeah, I'm with Shas on this one.
I've been imagining Uncle as a lv. 21 necromancer, not a lv. 50 insanomancer... thing. Er... anyways. Seriously, lv. 25 even would be fun, and Gestalt sounds awesometastic.

Lady Tialait
2008-01-20, 09:19 AM
Well, tialait is usally stated out as a 20 Druid/5 Heirphant.....Half-nymph...um..that is a homebrewed thingy, it gives her Cha bonuses, and some deadly prettyness effects, but they are pretty weak, so it's like a LA +1..i'll have to get them typed here when I get back home from Vacation.

Vespe Ratavo
2008-01-20, 10:51 AM
Gr....

BOOP!

And I had just gotten done with my character sheet too...

All right, what are we going down to...20th? 21st? *sigh* All right, make a decision...but I'd like to be able to keep Epic Leadership and Legendary Commander, even if the size of my army will probably go down to zilch. I liked my army...it fit my new backstory...*sniffle*

Raistlin1040
2008-01-20, 10:56 AM
20th is way too low though, at least for flavor. AMEN at least could kill all the gods in the universe no sweat. Gestalt and epic are unbalanced together, so the best we could do would be to gestalt 20, which might work, but would also limit us a bit.

Vespe Ratavo
2008-01-20, 10:59 AM
Gr...fine, but I'm holding out for at least level 23 gestalt. I'm already giving up my prestige class...at least let me keep my army, tiny as it may be.boopboopboopboopboopBOOP!

Raistlin1040
2008-01-20, 11:02 AM
We should get 50 levels. It fits perfectly into my character plan, and it fits the flavor of AMEN/HALO, and it's a high enough level that having everything we want with whatever stats we want doesn't shatter the game into a bazillion pieces.

Vespe Ratavo
2008-01-20, 11:07 AM
We should get 50 levels. It fits perfectly into my character plan, and it fits the flavor of AMEN/HALO, and it's a high enough level that having everything we want with whatever stats we want doesn't shatter the game into a bazillion pieces.

Yes. I agree with him. Besides, I don't want to have to redo my character sheet and backstory AGAIN.

PirateMonk
2008-01-20, 11:13 AM
Gestalt and epic are unbalanced together

Do you mean game-breaking or headache-inducing?

Shas aia Toriia
2008-01-20, 11:16 AM
Yes. I agree with him. Besides, I don't want to have to redo my character sheet and backstory AGAIN.

50 levels is far too high. At that point, one should play purely spellcasters. Want to here an example of epic brokenness easily attainable at that level?
Epic spells. Here's an example of a spell:


Death
Spellcraft DC: -99999999999999 and so on and so forth
SR: No
Saving Throw: No

This spell causes target foe to instantly die. This can be stopped in no way. Unaffected by magic resistance. Unaffected by psionic resistance. Unaffected by divine powers.
The caster of the spell takes 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 and so and so forth d20 of damage.

So, we're both dead now, but I have contingent True Ressurection as well. And I can cast that spell 5 times a day.

Regardless of AMEN being able to kill gods, can we please not stray too far into epic? Especially with gestalt.

By the way, who'd DMing this?

PirateMonk
2008-01-20, 11:17 AM
By the way, who'd DMing this?

This is a setting, not a game.

Vespe Ratavo
2008-01-20, 11:18 AM
Well...seeing as how this is more of a homebrew than a game, actual games will be GM'd by whoever wants to. I'm up to GM, I guess.

And AMEN is epic. We've conquered dimensions, killed gods, defeated armies, stared into the face of insanity and laughed, and destroyed the universe several times over. I think we qualify as epic.

Epic gestalt, though, is really broken, even for us.

Shas aia Toriia
2008-01-20, 11:27 AM
Well...seeing as how this is more of a homebrew than a game, actual games will be GM'd by whoever wants to. I'm up to GM, I guess.

And AMEN is epic. We've conquered dimensions, killed gods, defeated armies, stared into the face of insanity and laughed, and destroyed the universe several times over. I think we qualify as epic.

Epic gestalt, though, is really broken, even for us.

OK, so no GM.

However, even though we're all epic, once you get to ECL 50, it just gets harder and harder to get actualy monsters to fight, rather then just, say, a vermiuge with an extra 80 HD.

Raistlin1040
2008-01-20, 11:28 AM
Do you mean game-breaking or headache-inducing?

Both. It's so hard to follow, with epic rules and gestalt rules, and it also makes the already somewhat broken epic into a munchkin fest.

Vespe Ratavo
2008-01-20, 11:31 AM
OK, so no GM.

However, even though we're all epic, once you get to ECL 50, it just gets harder and harder to get actualy monsters to fight, rather then just, say, a vermiuge with an extra 80 HD.

That's why you're going to be fighting ARMIES. :smalltongue:

You make a good point though...homebrew monsters anyone? :smallconfused:

Shas aia Toriia
2008-01-20, 12:40 PM
That's why you're going to be fighting ARMIES. :smalltongue:

You make a good point though...homebrew monsters anyone? :smallconfused:

The problem with armies boils down to "how many natural 20's can we roll before we're all dead?". For example, Shas'aia, by him/herself, using my character sheet in my sig, could likely take out several thousand level 1 archers before s/he died. It just comes down to how big the army is.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-01-20, 08:04 PM
I think a cap 30 should be acceptable.

That would make Gwyn a level 10 Sorcerer, lvl 20 To-Be-Homebrewed-Once-I-Get-Around-To-It-Warblade-Swordsage-Mix. Maybe cut out a level or two of ToB to make up for the Crazy LA of having Fallen God as a race...

Raistlin1040
2008-01-20, 08:05 PM
Nope! Vespe and I are already done, and level 50 is fine thank you!

Lady Tialait
2008-01-20, 08:15 PM
I agree with ECL 50, i really do.

Um..one of the monsters i've got in Homebrew is Tialait's Tiamites, just a green one for now. But i plan on makeing the other ones. Heck, maybe even make a few more. I do love Tiamites so.


Druid 20/Heirphant 5/ Druid of Seelie Court 15 (i'll homebrew this one i know what it does)

Half-Nymph +2 LA, I'll homebrew this one

Fey Touched +2 LA, I'll homebrew this too.

Favored of the Fey Court (General)
Prerequite: Cast 3rd level Divine Spells and Wild Shape 1/day or the Nature Domain.
Effect: A Favored of the Fey can use summon a pixie to send a message to the Courts there is a 10% chance the request will be fullfilled, but equal payment must be given, this ability can be use times equal to the charitor's CHA modifier.


she has that feat too....>.>

PirateMonk
2008-01-21, 10:07 AM
I think Feytouched already exists.

Raistlin1040
2008-01-21, 03:10 PM
I think you're right, but maybe she wants to change it around to fit her character. I'm sure there's a Demon (Fallen Angel) template somewhere, but Rex and I just homebrewed mine to fit Raistlin better.

Shas aia Toriia
2008-01-21, 05:47 PM
Fine. ECL 50 :smallsigh: Are we still doing that crazy idea of ignoring LA? If so. . .

Shas'aia Toriia
Paragon Half-Celestial Half-(elemental - all) Pseudonatural Monster of Legend Half-Fiend Half-Slaad Half-Inevitable Titanic Leshay Favoured Soul 18/Hierophant 5/Warblade 17/Divine Emmisary 10

By the way, all those templates essentially negate the cosmetic changes they give, so I can look like whichever template I so choose. :smallamused:

Vespe Ratavo
2008-01-21, 06:55 PM
Fine. ECL 50 :smallsigh: Are we still doing that crazy idea of ignoring LA? If so. . .

Shas'aia Toriia
Paragon Half-Celestial Half-(elemental - all) Pseudonatural Monster of Legend Half-Fiend Half-Slaad Half-Inevitable Titanic Leshay Favoured Soul 18/Hierophant 5/Warblade 17/Divine Emmisary 10

By the way, all those templates essentially negate the cosmetic changes they give, so I can look like whichever template I so choose. :smallamused:

Sounds fine to me...

Reminds me. Vespe is a mixed breed/mutant, so maybe I should start abusing the No LA rule as well...

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-01-21, 08:20 PM
Dude. That is alot of Halves. What, are there 4 of you! :smallbiggrin:

Shas aia Toriia
2008-01-21, 09:05 PM
Actually, yeah. Exactly 4 of me. Plus I'm a leshay, which is the strongest WotC made playable race.

Lady Tialait
2008-01-21, 09:08 PM
Leshy are like everything else considering Elves....a specialized subrace....it's kinda sad really. oh well..

The Bushranger
2008-01-21, 09:17 PM
Hmm...Bushranger is...difficult. I believe I baselined him at Rogue 5, and...well, 32 levels of some weird combination of sorcerer and wizard.

And then there's the ghost powers, which are whole 'nother kettle of fish...

Shas aia Toriia
2008-01-22, 05:10 PM
Leshy are like everything else considering Elves....a specialized subrace....it's kinda sad really. oh well..

No, the Leshay is the most powerful plable race before we get into playing Adcanved Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons.

I believe a Leshay with no class levels is CR 32.

Vespe Ratavo
2008-01-22, 05:13 PM
No, the Leshay is the most powerful plable race before we get into playing Adcanved Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons.

I believe a Leshay with no class levels is CR 32.

O.O

Maybe I should reconsider the whole "no level advancement" thing...

Or just use my giant army should I ever have to fight you. That sounds easier. :smalltongue:

PirateMonk
2008-01-22, 08:39 PM
Hmm...Bushranger is...difficult. I believe I baselined him at Rogue 5, and...well, 32 levels of some weird combination of sorcerer and wizard.

And then there's the ghost powers, which are whole 'nother kettle of fish...

5 levels in rogue. Lots of Undead Hit Dice. Ability to cast as a 32nd level sorcerer/wizard/wizard-sorcerer thing. Alternate Form.

As for LA, assign an amount of XP that is within the ECL 50 area, and say anyone with LA can buy it off with the UA system.

The Bushranger
2008-01-22, 11:52 PM
*eyes cross*

...um, sure. You're the expert here. :smalleek:

Alternate Form might not be applicable anymore, though. He hasn't been seen in human form since that accident with Castaras...

Shas aia Toriia
2008-01-23, 04:41 PM
As for LA, assign an amount of XP that is within the ECL 50 area, and say anyone with LA can buy it off with the UA system.

This. The only feasible option. Oh, I checked and the leShay is only CR 28. :smallfrown: 'Course, with all the templates, it goes skyrocketing up. :smallamused:


O.O

Maybe I should reconsider the whole "no level advancement" thing...

Or just use my giant army should I ever have to fight you. That sounds easier. :smalltongue:

Rethinking it would help. And even against an army, none of their attacks would hit unless they rolled a natural 20 (while you spent your money of +28 weapons, I spent it on AC, saves and abilities). If we use a better rule, in which a Nat. 20 is only a roll of +20 to your next roll, they'll have to roll about 4 20s in a row.
Meanwhile, I can just use AoE spells on them, like Cloudkill or Fire Storm.

PirateMonk
2008-01-24, 07:49 PM
I don't think it's legal to have a leShay with class levels.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-01-25, 09:34 PM
Even if it is legal, it shouldn't be.

Shas aia Toriia
2008-01-26, 08:12 AM
I don't think it's legal to have a leShay with class levels.

It is perfectly legal. :smallamused:
That's like saying its illegal to play a Mind Flayer with class levels, or even a dragon with class levels.

PirateMonk
2008-01-26, 09:04 AM
It is perfectly legal. :smallamused:
That's like saying its illegal to play a Mind Flayer with class levels, or even a dragon with class levels.

Dragons and mindflayers actually have advancement and level adjustment rows. leShay do not. Creatures without LA are not suitable for PCs, creatures without advancement can't advance (e.g. take class levels).

Lady Tialait
2008-01-26, 11:51 AM
I hate to say it....and I REALLY REALLY hate to agree with PM...but it's true.

If there is no listed Advancement, you CANNOT advance the Race, so. LeShay cannot be advanced because they do not have advancement.


Then again, for the sake that I wanna Argue with PM...Dragons Advance by Age Catagory, so they can't have class levels, but Draconomicon has PrC for them. How are you to use those?


And to be perfectly Honest with everyone, LeShay have 50HD, that is according to the D&D rules, equal to LA +50. So, there you have it. They are REALLY underpowered for their HD, so, enjoy them. After all we arn't counting LA or HD into the formula, but I would suggest we did. But that is just me.

Oh, and sorry for any spelling or grammer errors, I'm half-sleeping and needed to vent this or i'd never get any sleep.

AmberVael
2008-01-26, 12:14 PM
*sighs*
First off, the thing about advancement is wrong. I direct your attention to the SRD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#advancement
Relevant section:

Often, intelligent creatures advance by gaining a level in a character class instead of just gaining a new Hit Die. (See Improving Monsters.)

The listed advancement under races is the most common method of advancement for said creature- but that does not mean they are limited to that advancement- otherwise imagine the devastation polymorph and reincarnate could wreak.


On the other issue, each HD does indeed count as one ECL (just like a character level would), and you would combine that with any class levels and level adjustment you might have.
I further point out that LeShay have no listed level adjustment, which means they are not intended for players to use. Now, this doesn't mean you can't play them- it just means that if you do play them you also have to figure out what LA they will have, which would likely shoot up their ECL even more.


Furthermore, I'd like to point this fact out since people seem to be missing it: CR has nothing to do with ECL. It is not an appropriate substitute for level adjustment, and it does not tell you the ECL of the monster. The actual ECL would likely be much much higher. CR is meant to show how appropriate of an encounter said creature is for what level of party- nothing more. Thus, CR 28 indicates that an ECL 28 party of four could likely challenge a LeShay.

ALSO I'd like to point out that the LA reduction rules as listed in Unearthed Arcana have a very confusing formula behind them that will make you lose experience and be behind the party. If you are inclined to use the LA reduction rules, you should not set an ECL limit, but instead an experience point limit which will account for that.

I'd also like to point out that ECL 50 is about the time when you start challenging gods and beating the tar out of them, and I'm not sure that is quite the level you guys intended things to be at. I'd suggest that ECL 30 is a bit more reasonable.


...
All that said...
I'm willing to help you guys out. I think you may need it. >.<

Raistlin1040
2008-01-26, 12:18 PM
You make some good points Vael, and I skimmed most of them, so I can't really comment. As for ECL, I think 50 works. Even if we're fighting gods and the tarrasque, that's kind of how AMEN works. If we go 30, it doesn't let us have as much freedom in customizing our characters, and it limits the ability to be incredily badass.

AmberVael
2008-01-26, 12:22 PM
There's a difference between 'badass' and 'I'ma go blow up the world now and recreate it, then eat that galaxy over there for breakfast, then start a new pantheon after I read the funnies.'
Really, Epic spells are that insanely powerful. An ECL 50 fighter, perhaps, wouldn't be quite such a problem- but once you throw epic spells into the mix, Hadoken looks like a bacon frying spell.
Perhaps the easiest way to solve this would be to get rid of epic spells altogether, but I'm sure people would go crazy about that...

Raistlin1040
2008-01-26, 12:24 PM
I wouldn't. Of course I'm a Bard so I don't get epic spells. We could make it ECL 50 and throw out epic spells, or we could say that primary spellcasters can't go over level 20-25, and need to Multi-class for 50 levels.

PirateMonk
2008-01-26, 12:26 PM
I'd also like to point out that ECL 50 is about the time when you start challenging gods and beating the tar out of them

Isn't that ECL 21? :smallconfused:

Raistlin1040
2008-01-26, 12:28 PM
Another thing I just thought of is that if we involve both AMEN and HALO, there will probably be more PvP than PvE. And as long as no primary spellcasting classes get to be higher than 20-25, it won't be incredibly unbalanced.

Lady Tialait
2008-01-26, 12:30 PM
Vael, your right, Like i said, i'm a bit tired.

I think setting us at a Experiance limet would be nice. but I do agree the limit being enough to be at level 50 would be correct. Challenging the Gods is something both AMEN and HALO do quite frequently.

I mean do you really see Draken as a Level 30 charitor? he throws around epic spells like candy, As do most AMENites/HALOers. If they have something, they use it almost continuously, but such is the nature of freeform Roleplay.

Not everyone should be that High, some of us cannot stand against others. I mean, look at Inigo who is a duelist and isn't very epic. then look at Shas, who is Epic and Proud of it.

There should be a limit, It should be huge, and not everyone should hit that limit. Then again, i'm not exactly thinking at 100%

AmberVael
2008-01-26, 12:34 PM
@ Raistlin Nah, limiting spellcasting class level really isn't going to do all that much- once you hit level 20 in a spellcasting class you don't really get much more- except epic spells.
Getting rid of the Epic spell thing altogether would solve the problem. Sure, there are other ways for a caster to advance, but they aren't nearly as problematic.
Well, they still have extremely disparate power in comparison to the other classes, but that's always going to happen at high levels. This way they just don't go crazy like I said above.
I would suggest that someone homebrew up some new epic feats for melee classes and give the poor guys a boost. The feats already listed for them are pretty terrible.
I think there are some already made around this section, come to think of it...

@ PM: ECL 21? No. Gods have 40 class levels, plus their own powers, which make them pretty insane in comparison to ECL 21.

@ Tialait: Draken is an exception to the rule. I don't think you should base the entire system around one person's creation. He might deserve ECL 50- but frankly I could recreate him easily with lower class levels, the only thing that boosts him so high is his insane level adjustment due to his template/monster choice of race.

wadledo
2008-01-26, 12:37 PM
Draken is an exception to the rule. I don't think you should base the entire system around one person's creation. He might deserve ECL 50- but frankly I could recreate him easily with lower class levels, the only thing that boosts him so high is his insane level adjustment due to his template/monster choice of race.

And his amazing SL ability to be as pig-headed as a rock.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-01-26, 01:17 PM
I try to play Gwyn as around power with Inigo.

At the moment, Im thinking lvl 20 sorc, lvl 20 fighter thing, lvl 5 warlock, though all in all, i think less than that is better.

Lady Tialait
2008-01-26, 01:32 PM
I think we should cap ECL at 50, not meaning everyone should be ECL 50, it's the limit, not the goal.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-01-26, 01:34 PM
That's right. That allows you to have characters with weakness if you want too, or you can have Uber McCoolness, the 50th level Wizard. Or whatever. You can even have a first level character if you want!

Uncle Festy
2008-01-26, 07:55 PM
May I suggest home-brewing higher-level spells?
I suggested this a while back, but it never really took off.
Say, summon monster X-XXV, fireball-style spells that cap off at 35d6, cure lethal wounds, Finger of Death, Mass... basically, use an extension of the previous system rather then using something totally different.

Shas aia Toriia
2008-01-26, 09:21 PM
[QUOTE=Vael;3841651
@ PM: ECL 21? No. Gods have 40 class levels, plus their own powers, which make them pretty insane in comparison to ECL 21.[/quote]

However, Vael, this is the same book that says that making a +6 weapon should count as an SDA (Salient Divine Ability).
That book was designed for a lvl. 20 cap. Once we get into epic, the gods are too busy wearing their Belts of Ogre Strength +200
while handling their 500 class levels to worry about us mortals.

Also, Tialait, darn right I'm proud of my epic. :smallcool: :smallamused:

Shas aia Toriia
2008-01-26, 09:23 PM
May I suggest home-brewing higher-level spells?
I suggested this a while back, but it never really took off.
Say, summon monster X-XXV, fireball-style spells that cap off at 35d6, cure lethal wounds, Finger of Death, Mass... basically, use an extension of the previous system rather then using something totally different.

Two words:

Epic. Magic.

((which is far too broken - I can have a never ending True Ressurection effect starting the second several dozen days after I get Epic Spellcasting.))

Uncle Festy
2008-01-26, 09:37 PM
which is far too broken

Which is why I made the suggestion in the first place.

AmberVael
2008-01-27, 09:46 AM
Actually, the idea of higher level spells can easily be created with two things.
Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity) and any metamagic feat you might want to add.
There is an epic metamagic called Enhance Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#enhanceSpell) that will increase the damage cap, but personally, if you are going to go with blasty spells, I recommend going with Energy Admixture (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Energy_Admixture,all) to add in more damage. The classic Empower (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#empowerSpell) metamagic is lower level and still adds a pretty hefty amount.

Seriously though, with improved spell capacity, or maybe (my favorite) Improved Metamagic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMetamagic[/url) you can be casting better and better spells with metamagic, virtually creating spells 'above 9th level.'

Dallas-Dakota
2008-01-27, 10:06 AM
Count me in as a foodamancer/cleric. Maybe a few levels of priest...

Shas aia Toriia
2008-01-27, 10:06 AM
Actually, the idea of higher level spells can easily be created with two things.
Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity) and any metamagic feat you might want to add.
There is an epic metamagic called Enhance Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#enhanceSpell) that will increase the damage cap, but personally, if you are going to go with blasty spells, I recommend going with Energy Admixture (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Energy_Admixture,all) to add in more damage. The classic Empower (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#empowerSpell) metamagic is lower level and still adds a pretty hefty amount.

Seriously though, with improved spell capacity, or maybe (my favorite) Improved Metamagic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMetamagic[/url) you can be casting better and better spells with metamagic, virtually creating spells 'above 9th level.'


Better yet, if you have the feats to spare (8!!), you can gain Miracle at will. :smallamused:

Lady Tialait
2008-01-27, 02:18 PM
What do you guys think of this:


No Higher then ECL 50, lower is fine, Higher is not. LA counts. and such.

Epic Magic requires Three Feats to gain, (That is what I used when my campaign reached Epics...Three Feats and you get to use Epic magic, before that you get no Epic magicals...) and the feats are NOT on your Epic Bonus Feat list. so nah nah.

If the Race doesn't have a LA, then you consult the Project Board and we'll give you one. (or use some common sense...)

Try to create your AMEN/HALO charitor as best you can, don't just go for cheese.


oh...feel free to tell me i got it all wrong..

Vespe Ratavo
2008-01-27, 02:59 PM
We need to get more content than just characters, you know. Any HALOites up to make a profile of HALO (like the one of AMEN in the first post)?

AmberVael
2008-01-27, 08:13 PM
What do you guys think of this:


No Higher then ECL 50, lower is fine, Higher is not. LA counts. and such.

Epic Magic requires Three Feats to gain, (That is what I used when my campaign reached Epics...Three Feats and you get to use Epic magic, before that you get no Epic magicals...) and the feats are NOT on your Epic Bonus Feat list. so nah nah.

If the Race doesn't have a LA, then you consult the Project Board and we'll give you one. (or use some common sense...)

Try to create your AMEN/HALO charitor as best you can, don't just go for cheese.


oh...feel free to tell me i got it all wrong..
Epic magic should not exist at all. Period. It is far too powerful to ever be balanced. Three feats is not enough.

Also, there should be a clause that LA reduction can't be used, or you have to at least follow the XP guidelines when using it. Seriously- otherwise, at this level, you can just drop the LA off of any template.