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View Full Version : Casters, and Lowering Saves



Yami
2008-01-18, 06:44 AM
Well, ever since I met the Unseelie-Fey template from some 3.0 dragon magazine, I've wanted to run up to people, freak them out by lowering thier saves and then hit them with save or suck and then die effects.

Sadly, 3.5 seems to have put a damper on this by not carrying over the template.

I was just wondering if anyone else out there has found any nifty ways to lower someone's saving throw.

Anything along the lines of "Any living non fey within 5ft of the unseelie-fey takes a penalty to thier saves equal to the unseelie-fey's charisma."

Spells would also be acceptable, as would anything really. My search came up empty, but I didn't want to abandon the concept just yet.

Nebo_
2008-01-18, 06:52 AM
The Paladin of Tyranny get an aura of despair that lowers saves by 2 within 10'. The Hexblade's Dark Companion (PHBII) gets a similar ability. Hexblade's curse is nice, too. The spell Bestow Curse can impose a -4 on saves. Fear effects also effect saving throws.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-18, 07:24 AM
Limited Wish can lower the next save by 7.

Charity
2008-01-18, 07:26 AM
Doesn't a fatespinner get an ability to nail someones saves once a day?

Nebo_
2008-01-18, 07:28 AM
Yes, but it sucks. You can't use it on an opponent with more HD than you.

Keld Denar
2008-01-18, 07:37 AM
Problem with Lim Wish is that it gets a save too. I'm not as big of a fan of spells with setups like that, or with Mind Fog + will save stuff or whatnot. Unless you are hitting a weak save with the debuff, and then a strong save with the followup, you are better off just casting the 2nd spell twice. If something can reliably make your save vs MF or LW, it'll probably make the save vs the followup. If it fails the save vs the initial, it'll have probably failed the save vs the followup anyways, and casting it straightup would have saved you an action. At mid levels, spell slots are too valuable to use this often, and at high levels, actions are too valuable to make this a valid trick. Unless you are combining spells with an ally who has a higher DC than you, and you have a spell he doesn't is the only time I can think of this being a useful tactic.

Things like Fatespinner and Assay Spell Resistance and Spell Enhancer are ok, since they are swift or free actions, but even at high levels, its often best to cast a quickened spell with no save or something.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-18, 07:42 AM
Problem with Lim Wish is that it gets a save too. I'm not as big of a fan of spells with setups like that, or with Mind Fog + will save stuff or whatnot. Unless you are hitting a weak save with the debuff, and then a strong save with the followup, you are better off just casting the 2nd spell twice. If something can reliably make your save vs MF or LW, it'll probably make the save vs the followup. If it fails the save vs the initial, it'll have probably failed the save vs the followup anyways, and casting it straightup would have saved you an action. At mid levels, spell slots are too valuable to use this often, and at high levels, actions are too valuable to make this a valid trick. Unless you are combining spells with an ally who has a higher DC than you, and you have a spell he doesn't is the only time I can think of this being a useful tactic.

It is not clear that the -7 to save effect of limited wish grants a save. If it did it would be extremely weak as you say, since it applies to the next save only.

Without a save it can be useful, if a bit expensive.

Keld Denar
2008-01-18, 07:44 AM
It is not clear that the -7 to save effect of limited wish grants a save. If it did it would be extremely weak as you say, since it applies to the next save only.

Without a save it can be useful, if a bit expensive.

Most of the offensive things that Lim Wish does get saves. I don't have the text in front of me, but that was kind of the drawback of it.

EDIT: I do have the text:


Limited Wish
Universal

Level: Sor/Wiz 7

Components: V, S, XP

Casting Time: 1 standard action

Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things.

Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.

Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.

Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if its of a prohibited school.

Duplicate any other spell of 4th level or lower, even if its of a prohibited school.

Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.

Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a 7 penalty on its next saving throw.

A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal (but the save DC is for a 7th-level spell). When a limited wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost or 300 XP, whichever is more. When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component.

XP Cost: 300 XP or more (see above).


Nothing in the bolded passage in the discription contradicts the bolded None in the header block. Guess I'm wrong. I seem to be having a poor track record lately...

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-18, 07:53 AM
Most of the offensive things that Lim Wish does get saves. I don't have the text in front of me, but that was kind of the drawback of it.

Duplicated spells grants saves, no questions asked, but effect in line with the power level is not mentioned.


Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things.

...

- Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a 7 penalty on its next saving throw.

A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal (but the save DC is for a 7th-level spell) ... .

And this not just hair splitting, considering that Greater Bestow Curse is a Clr 7, Wiz/Sor 8 spell that grants -8 on all saves forever, but allows a save, I think it is reasonable not to require a saving throw for the -7 on next save effect.



EDIT:
Well, at least you are an edit ninja and I am really slow... :smalltongue:

Keld Denar
2008-01-18, 08:00 AM
AH HA! I ninja edited myself to change what is wrong.

My point still stands, though, for most non-Lim Wish debuffs. With Greater Bestow Curse, what is the point in giving a target a -8 on all saves for the rest of their life, when the rest of there life consists of the 6 seconds until your next turn when you Finger o' Death them to death? Even with Lim Wish, if you don't have another caster friend with a killer lined up, or a way to get a free spell in a round (quicken, belt of battle, etc) then it would probably be most advantageous to just take the spell twice, and cast it twice. If the first succeeds, you've saved a spell slot. If not, you haven't lost anything that you wouldn't have already expended. If both fail, then your debuff spell probably would have failed too.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-18, 08:09 AM
My point still stands, though, for most non-Lim Wish debuffs. With Greater Bestow Curse, what is the point in giving a target a -8 on all saves for the rest of their life, when the rest of there life consists of the 6 seconds until your next turn when you Finger o' Death them to death?

No, should it succeed it would be overkill. I think it can be fun to throw at PCs though.


Even with Lim Wish, if you don't have another caster friend with a killer lined up, or a way to get a free spell in a round (quicken, belt of battle, etc) then it would probably be most advantageous to just take the spell twice, and cast it twice. If the first succeeds, you've saved a spell slot. If not, you haven't lost anything that you wouldn't have already expended. If both fail, then your debuff spell probably would have failed too.


I agree that the use is limited....

But if it is an 8th or 9th level spell that you really want to hit home with, using a 7th level spell to increase the chance could probably be worth it under some circumstances.

Keld Denar
2008-01-18, 08:26 AM
No, should it succeed it would be overkill. I think it can be fun to throw at PCs though.



I agree that the use is limited....

But if it is an 8th or 9th level spell that you really want to hit home with, using a 7th level spell to increase the chance could probably be worth it under some circumstances.

Yeah, but there are also a decent number of lower level options that either require fewer actions, or don't allow saves, or both. Take Split Ray Enervation, a fairly common debuffer. A Metamagic Rod of Quicken would allow you to dish out 2d4 neg levels as a swift action. This would not only give -2d4 to all saves, but if the foe survived, they would have -2d4 to hit and lose some top shelf spells. This is a much better debuff than Quickened Bestowing Curse or Mind Fog IMO.

Benejeseret
2008-01-18, 09:55 AM
I have seen a Harbinger - Bard work with a Dark Companion - Hexblade with empowered greater curse to really mess with somethings saves

Craig1f
2008-01-18, 10:24 AM
Doesn't a fatespinner get an ability to nail someones saves once a day?

Yes, but it sucks. You can't use it on an opponent with more HD than you.

The capstone skill I think, can only be used against an opponent with fewer HD. That's the one where you can give someone a +10 or -10 to their next save. That level of Fatespinner sucks though, because you don't get spell progression.

The first level of fatespinner allows you to increase the DC of the next spell you cast, by as much as your fatespinner level. Assuming you get to level 4 of Fatespinner, you can increase the DC of one spell by 4. I don't think this is HD dependent, and isn't too shabby.

The real nice thing though, is that you can use the level 2 ability, which allows you to force someone to reroll their save. Since you already know the result of their roll (but probably not their Will modifier), you can use this ability if they roll really high.

Forcing someone to repeat their save roll is very powerful.

I've been taking a close look at this for my beguiler.