Why "reboot" the Forgotten Realms? [Archive] - Page 2

EvilElitest

2008-01-23, 07:00 PM

Yes. Yes it is. I've seen far too many "GMNPC" motivational posters with Elminster or Drizz't on them. And they're only the most iconic, not the only ones possible.

For books? Or for the games themselves, because in all my games the PCs have only met Elminster once and Drizzt twice.

A world can react realistically without a metaplot or uber powerful NPCs, which seems to be an extremely easy to gloss over point.

And a world can realistically react with uber powerful NPCS and a "metaplot"

1. You're also trying to tell me there aren't too many. I'm trying to clarify the position of those who feel there are, and am growing to agree with them.
2. Then play 4e in 3.5e Faerun? This slavish devotion to the metaplot is in fact part of my point, about it being a problem.

1. Except those NPCS who are "uber", aren't that big of a hinderence. It is perfectly realistic and easy to never even met any of them
2. No because 4E ruined what i liked about FR. What if Exalted was changed in such a way it lost what you considered some of its coolest factors?

Nnnnnoo, the great big NPCs, if I'm not mistaken, have world shaking epic power that is kept on the downlow so that they don't make their cold war hot. This actually would imply, to me, that they have MASSIVE influence, because they bend all their power towards expanding outside influence, rather then direct combat.
Not really. Give me an example of a high level NPC and i'll explain their role in the 3.5 world

Fixed. He's quite dead. Yes, he was a better martial artist then Chuck Norris, however.
Yeah, he turned into a vampire and was in I am Legend:smallbiggrin:

"Your efforts in risking your life in helping me have been most appreciated! I could have handled that with signifcantly less risk, and more elan, but I was too busy doing important things. Thank you very much!"

except they wouldn't show up. Lets say a band of 8 level PC slay a band of Bugbear orges. None of the Ubers would show up, but the locals will love them

Every game i run, and every FR game i've played in was run that way, and the general idea of the world seems based on that.

That is a fault of the GM, not the world, that is not the aim of the setting

Well, actually, I disagree with that too (Earn power? What is this, the real world? If I'm telling an Epic, why would I want to waste my or the group's time with sessions that amount to a training montage, in terms of narrative importance?), but more to the point, given how iconic the FR seems to have been to, at the least, RPG.net, there is a well founded fear that those other epics will, in fact, stop that.

1. In the real world we lack magic and Exp sadly
2. You seem to like Beowulf like epics for yours PCs, but in my group if they want to be that uber, they have to crawl all the way up to that point. Different styles. However, in your case you can just simple start them off at high level

3. That's called simulationism. While there's nothing technically wrong with that, it has a tendency to breed mundanity. I'm /drowning/ in mundanity as a human being. That's what the real world is. Why, oh why, would I want to /add/ to it with my entertainment and fiction?
Maybe you want an escapist ideal, but other people want to immerse themselves. I've always found that epic fight is so much more epic after a few years of playing to get your self to that point.

4. Drizz't is rather like an NPC within his novels. Except your game isn't his novels. He's an NPC, unless you're actually playing as him.

My point is that he is rather like just another PC plot wise, he does his own stuff, he fights his own monsters, and unless the PCs seak him out, he does his own thing

Actually, you're half wrong; The world does encourage that, because there's a metaplot that glorifies the uber NPCs. The setting information may or may not encourage it, on hits own. It'd depend on the writing of the setting info, really; If there's a lot of talk about these uber levels, as opposed to brief exposition and moving on, then the setting info itself encourages it. Regardless of whether the setting info does, /every single novel/ that has these NPCs as main characters continues to encourage that type of DMing. Just because it's bad DMing doesn't mean it isn't subtly encouraged.

Except the NPC just have a history and how they effect the surrounding area. Some PCs might want to meet up with these guys and acts as their errand boys, some want to compete with them, some want to kill them and some want to avoid them. using them as the "saves the day" idea is just bad DMing

You missed the point. If you ever get a chance, read City of Splendors: Waterdeep. You will be amazed at just how many far-reaching plots are underway by low to mid-level NPCs right under the Blackstaff's nose... and if those lowbies can do it, so can the PCs.
Great book

No, you see what actually happened is that gnomes killed all the halfling and replaced them, just changing their name. Because, come on, read the "new halfling description and tell me where those are halflings. Or they all got a sudden growth spurt? (no, seriously, anybody have an idea about why they make halflings taller?)

A prophet!? Bow to his wisdom

Wish / The Epic Spell "Mirror"
1. What NPCs have access to Mirror?
2. Wait, so the NPCS are going to cast this spell to bounce about the entire realms? Ummmmm

Yes, and if you read the Races/Classes preview, so would you; Halfings, as printed before, were smaller then toddlers, and lighter. They added a few inches and pounds to make it /slightly/ more believeable that these things could do.. jack. It's not a meaningful change, but it's a sensical one.

3 1/2 feet and 100 pounds i think

Sealand? Forgive me, I seem to have a gap. Where's/When's Sealand?
worlds smallest country. Google it, your laugh. It isn't a joke

Well frankly, I hope the new Realms crashes so the rights will revert back to Greenwood. I can state with confidence that he'd do a much better job of it. As for my group and I, we're sticking with 3.5 and the 3.5 Realms with it.
Greenwood is a bad writer, but a good world maker

from
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Kioran

2008-01-23, 07:22 PM

About fragging time! Good freaking God, they essentially kill support for your favorite setting (FR as is) and you god damned whine, scream, kick, and proclaim the suck of the new golden child (The 'new' FR). This is the correct answer; "Screw the metaplot, I'm going home."

It might be the right answer, just like shooting a rabid dog is. It´s an unpleasant thing to do anyway. It sucks when official support and convention events will move along without you. Unless one has a very solid circle of players who boycott 4th Ed. and 4th. Ed FR alongside oneself, one is going to have increasing trouble finding other players and games.
Well, we had something similiar in germany, anyway: There was DSA (Das Schwarze Auge), one of the most popular systems in germany, which had two minor flaws: It was a bit clunky, and it broke down halfway through the mid-lvls, where it was nearly impossible to kill anyone and characters began resembling each othr far too closely, the differences between the classes eroding.
They updated it, from die-rolling and quite fixed tables and progressions to Point-buy, poorly ripped of from GURPS (yes, you didn´t misread this - they had a very similiar list of advantages and disadvantages, with almost identical cost and base point allotments in most cases). They also balanced it very crappily (buying your 8 stats on a 1:1 basis, but with advantages/disadvantages, even minor ones, being worth 5-10 points as in GURPS. They also butchered the backstory/metaplot by having a continent the size of europe subjected to two major civil wars, one demonic invasion and an Ork-Crusade at the same time, to the point of verisimilitude breaking because one couldn´t conceive mankind avoiding slow extinction under such circumstances.

DSA 4th Ed. (coincidence?) crashed and burned. Sure, it is the predominant edition nowadays. It replaced 3rd ed and is the standard nowadays. But 3rd Ed remained the major edition in conventions for almost 2 years, and many who formerly played DSA moved on to White Wolf, D20 or other products and systems.

One botched Edition change cost this system and it´s publisher one of the best positions in the market. And that edition change tanked because the guys writing it were primarily authors/adventure designers, and game designers only in a secondary function, with little talent for it.
I´m now asking myself whether the Designers of 4th Ed are game desingers(like, for example, Monte Cook) or experts at marketing/adventure designers. There´s a difference, mainly creativity with numbers seperate from background (I will not bring myself to say "fluff" - it´s derogatory and implies a secondary role next to the mechanics), and the skills to estimate a rules effect so one can spot a lot of things without major playtesting. Secondly, it´s a creativity in regards to what the mechanics are actually going to represent - you need to have a good basis for your work. The authors and marketing people come in when the game designer is halfway finished, polishing up the entire affair, but until then, it´s almost a one-man show - the heavy lifting is done by a very small group of people (a larger one wouldn´t ever agree on anything or get stuff done).

If these people have no clue (like I fear), it´s going to be a ****show.

Rutee

2008-01-23, 07:29 PM

Your point is more mechanics based, seemingly, and quite frankly, people are, in all probability, massively, massively overestimating the problems. I said what I did of cantankerous curmudgeonery for a reason; I hear the exact same /style/ of complaints about 3e, regarding 2nd ed, and I bet if I looked hard enough, I could find a hardcore proponent of 1st ed.

For books? Or for the games themselves, because in all my games the PCs have only met Elminster once and Drizzt twice.
Your games != the sum and total of the experience with the FR, perhaps surprisingly. Neither is that of the people I know of or know, it's true. But you didn't ask me to tell you whether it was objectively likely; You asked me to tell you whether it was hard to believe. And it is.

And a world can realistically react with uber powerful NPCS and a "metaplot"
That's just super, but nobody implied otherwise.

2. No because 4E ruined what i liked about FR. What if Exalted was changed in such a way it lost what you considered some of its coolest factors?
Horse Hockey. DnD has and always will be setting-independent. 4e mechanics will not affect 3.5e Faerun one little bit. And as to your question? You mean if White Wolf took stupid pills for 4 months, unlearned everything the Old World of Darkness taught them about the futility/idiocy of a metaplot, and caused massive changes to the setting, as opposed to what they've been doing, which is "Here's the setting, here's the rules for everything, go nuts"? I /would keep playing in the same setting I am now/, unless the new one was actually interesting. Or someone came up with an idea for setting changes/a new setting that was still interesting.

[/quote]except they wouldn't show up. Lets say a band of 8 level PC slay a band of Bugbear orges. None of the Ubers would show up, but the locals will love them
[/quote]
Stop asking questions if you're not going to listen to the answer. You directly asked me how a high level NPC could make the party feel unimportant, and then you chose to say "But that won't happen if I run the game" in essence, when you hear the answer. Fine, except you didn't ask about statistical probabilities of an occurence in your game; You asked about the possibility thereof in a vacuum.

2. You seem to like Beowulf like epics for yours PCs, but in my group if they want to be that uber, they have to crawl all the way up to that point. Different styles. However, in your case you can just simple start them off at high level
That sounds like terrific fun. Hint: Making a game into work is a recipe for a bad game.

Maybe you want an escapist ideal, but other people want to immerse themselves. I've always found that epic fight is so much more epic after a few years of playing to get your self to that point.
You live in a world of self deception if you believe RL time is a requisite to Fictional epicness. If you sat through Star Wars eps 1-6, in the course of about 12 hours you would see about 10 epic duels. Regardless, it's not escapism; Escapism would be believing I'm there in a sense. It's about being Epic.

Except the NPC just have a history and how they effect the surrounding area. Some PCs might want to meet up with these guys and acts as their errand boys, some want to compete with them, some want to kill them and some want to avoid them. using them as the "saves the day" idea is just bad DMing
Oh my god in heaven, are you reading? I have never once disagreed that it's bad DMing. You have not once acknowledged understanding of the actual point; That the metaplot and it's presence encourages that bad DMing. How? Through glorification of the NPCs, and of the 'over arching' plot. Respond to /that/.

Gig_Complex

2008-01-23, 07:42 PM

Now, /seriously/, people. If you're not arguing against this change because you play in Living Greyhawk, how can it possibly affect you? Anyone angry for reasons that are roughly "They're killing my games", who does not play Living Greyhawk, is essentially proving my point as to why metaplot is bad.

Just to throw my two cents in,

I've been playing Living Greyhawk for a while now and my friends and I have characters that have a good deal of time invested in them and this 'reboot' just negated all that work we put into them. I know that we're going to keep them alive with a friend DMing but we're going to miss LG and are rather upset by the fact that WotC decided to pretty much blow us off.

On another side I like FR, not a real big fan but I like it anyways, but even I think that they're handling this 'reboot' thing in the wrong way. I personally never minded the Epic Level NPCs or the gods that just seem to sit on their asses as those are common factors in pretty much every Setting it's just how the DM handle things that truly matters.

comicshorse

2008-01-23, 08:41 PM

Prophaniti

2008-01-23, 09:24 PM

Oh my god in heaven, are you reading? I have never once disagreed that it's bad DMing. You have not once acknowledged understanding of the actual point; That the metaplot and it's presence encourages that bad DMing. How? Through glorification of the NPCs, and of the 'over arching' plot. Respond to /that/.

I'll respond to that. Metaplot, as you call it, is entirely necassary to any story or game, even if you want your D&D game to be a very self-contained story. Let's use Princess Bride as an example. Obviously a story that is entirely self-contained (e.g. we know next to nothing about people and locations other than those directly involved) it is still necessary to know some things about the world to fully understand the story. Observe the war with Gilder (I have no idea if that's spelled right). We never see any direct evidence of this war, no soldiers, no battles, no sacked villages. But it is necessary to inform us, the readers/watchers, of the war in order to understand the machinations behind the villians actions.

All FR does is fill in most of the world for you, around 80% or so. This in no way encourages bad DMing any more than other published campaign settings, including Dragonlance, Ravenloft and Greyhawk. Yes, FR has more than most of these settings (but not all, IMO Dragonlance has fewer well-defined points on the map). If you don't like that much pre-defined detail, don't use the setting. That doesn't make it a bad setting, or one that only good DMs can do well.

You do have a valid point about escapism. I play partly for that feeling, and would like my games to feel like they could be real, feel like I could be the one standing there. Feeling Epic is another approach, and if that's all you need to have fun, more power to you. But feeling epic is merely a particular manifestation of escapism, and if you think you don't play (any fantasy game) at least partly for a feeling of escape, you need to more honestly re-examine your motivations. Me, I like my escapes to feel like they could be real, which means a world that turns without me, in which I face dangers, struggles and the very real possibility of being messily killed.

Rutee

2008-01-23, 10:19 PM

If context is going to continue to be ignored within my posts, I'm going to start speaking Lojban; At least that way, everything I say will be unequivocal (If incomprehensible; Meaning it'll come to the same amount of communication either way ._. )

I'm not talking about setting. I'm talking the over-arcing, *Wizards Written* plots wherein <NPC Y or Z> does uber, awesome things that in at least some cases, will shake the world. That NPC is the star. This is to be expected, in a sense; It's in the FR, and he's a high level character capable of doing awesome things. Problem is, and no matter how much it's maintained that "Nobody does this", or "Only bad DMs do this", /those NPCs and those plots get taken as more important then the people sitting at the table/. That genuinely should not be the case; Regardless of your intent, it's just flat out /rude/ to treat people sitting next to you badly.

Talya

2008-01-23, 10:28 PM

Problem is, and no matter how much it's maintained that "Nobody does this", or "Only bad DMs do this", /those NPCs and those plots get taken as more important then the people sitting at the table/. That genuinely should not be the case; Regardless of your intent, it's just flat out /rude/ to treat people sitting next to you badly.

How many campaigns do you have that actually reach levels where this matters, anyway? 99% of the gaming i've done has happened between the levels of 1-10...where you'll NEVER be doing anything worldshaking, and it's EXPECTED that there will be NPCs out there that are more important than you are. It's not rude to treat the player's characters that way...it's how the world works.

Frankly, if you reached level 20 as a wizard, you'd be a force to be reckoned with, even in faerun. Yes, there'd be more powerful, but you could count them on your fingers, and the world is a very, very big place.

ZekeArgo

2008-01-23, 10:33 PM

How many campaigns do you have that actually reach levels where this matters, anyway? 99% of the gaming i've done has happened between the levels of 1-10...where you'll NEVER be doing anything worldshaking, and it's EXPECTED that there will be NPCs out there that are more important than you are. It's not rude to treat the player's characters that way...it's how the world works.

Frankly, if you reached level 20 as a wizard, you'd be a force to be reckoned with, even in faerun. Yes, there'd be more powerful, but you could count them on your fingers, and the world is a very, very big place.

You seem to completely disregard people who think that starting at level 1-5 is old hat, and prefer the higher levels so you can actually play as an epic hero.

Rutee

2008-01-23, 10:37 PM

We are not talking to each other. We're talking at or past each other. Okay, trying again. Communication Powers, go.

How many campaigns do you have that actually reach levels where this matters, anyway? 99% of the gaming i've done has happened between the levels of 1-10...where you'll NEVER be doing anything worldshaking, and it's EXPECTED that there will be NPCs out there that are more important than you are. It's not rude to treat the player's characters that way...it's how the world works.
I'm not talking about shaking the world right now. I'm talking about keeping center stage within the game. Not the whole of Faerun, not even all of Waterdeep. Imagine, for a moment, your roleplay is a movie. The PCs are the ones who should have the screentime, not Elminster, not Elminster's Hat (Big hats are always the true power, not the wearer), not other people. They're the guest cameos, at most. We understanding each other better?

You seem to completely disregard people who think that starting at level 1-5 is old hat, and prefer the higher levels so you can actually play as an epic hero.
I kinda like 8-10. The teens are my favorite levels, til about 15ish I think? 8 means we can take the exp formulae, not think about them too hard, and still have a while before hitting the levels where we have to start jobbing the system for the melee can still be useful. I think you stop seeing Blaster spells at SL 8 or 9 though? I can't recall..

EvilElitest

2008-01-23, 10:43 PM

I lack the time to reply to anything, on account of me celebrating my last mid term done and watching movies, however what i think Rutee is saying is that she disliked the moving "plot" of FR, the idea that as the FR time line advances (prior to 4E) the people moving it are the heros of the FR books, aka the uber NPCS, not the PCs. For example, when a big event occurs, it is Elminister who brings it about, not the PC group. I'm not sure about that though, am i making any sense here, its a little hard to piece together
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horseboy

2008-01-24, 12:18 AM

Wish / The Epic Spell "Mirror"

"I wish I was everywhere on the planet at once!" BAMF! You're now an inanimate, non sentient rock spinning through a crystal sphere. You may wanna reroll there.
"I wish there were more of me." BAMF! Everybody now has your stats.
"I wish there was no long hate in the world." BAMF! Everything and everyone on the planet ceases to exist. Now there's nothing to hate.

No, there's a reason NPC's never cast Wish.

Now, /seriously/, people. If you're not arguing against this change because you play in Living Greyhawk, how can it possibly affect you? Anyone angry for reasons that are roughly "They're killing my games", who does not play Living Greyhawk, is essentially proving my point as to why metaplot is bad.First question: /What's/ /with/ /the/ /slashes/ /around/ /words?/
Secondly: Just because I only do LG in 3.x doesn't mean I don't have fond memories of hanging out at Selune's Smile back in 1st edition. Or that I didn't read all the books up through Harper's #2. Or that I occasionally swipe the setting for some Rolemaster fun.

You're a damn spellcaster. Why do you /need/ to be in multiple places at once? Create magic items that grant food, water, etc all over the place, guard them with higher up Golems. Create a custom version of Alarm that goes off when people try to steal one, keep Teleport prepared.
Because multiple things are happening simultaneously. As has been pointed out in the post create food and drink thread the chief reason it's not done is because it's prohibitively expensive. Especially if you've got golems there to back it up. Not to mention the questions like what are they to do after you're dead from a rag-tag group of misfits busting into your fortress and taking your stuff?

Kojiro Kakita

2008-01-24, 12:21 AM

I don't know if I missed it, and I am sorry if I did, but can someone tell me where this official reboot of FR can be found.

EvilElitest

2008-01-24, 12:25 AM

Stinging remarks horseboys, nicely done
Rutee, am i close to the mark

And by the by Rutee, what is you avater, i swear i've seen it somewhere
from
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Rutee

2008-01-24, 12:39 AM

First question: /What's/ /with/ /the/ /slashes/ /around/ /words?/
Secondly: Just because I only do LG in 3.x doesn't mean I don't have fond memories of hanging out at Selune's Smile back in 1st edition. Or that I didn't read all the books up through Harper's #2. Or that I occasionally swipe the setting for some Rolemaster fun.
IRC junky; Italics are impossible on the IRC Clients I and others use, so / is used to convey them, or otherwise show emphasis. I /could/ use the forum italics, but not only are the backslashes (slightly) less time consuming, old habits die hard. Really, the fact that they convey emphasis ought to be obvious.

Because multiple things are happening simultaneously. As has been pointed out in the post create food and drink thread the chief reason it's not done is because it's prohibitively expensive. Especially if you've got golems there to back it up. Not to mention the questions like what are they to do after you're dead from a rag-tag group of misfits busting into your fortress and taking your stuff?
"Prohibitively Expensive"? Because actual food costs are so much lower? I'm willing to bet that if you could get major cities to give up food for a day, you'd set up free food for X people for life.

Now if you were going to more accurately critique this plan, it would be "The default DnD setting seems to rely on an agrarian economy. Peasants would be less then willing to give up their only source of reliable income", and quite frankly, my only concern was answerring the immediate question. Either way, an Epic Level Spellcaster truly out to do good for the world can make rather large, very, /very/ nice changes if they so wish.

Stinging remarks horseboys, nicely done
Rutee, am i close to the mark
In order,
"Stinging" in the sense that a gadfly stings a horse; An annoyance.
Yes.

horseboy

2008-01-24, 01:02 AM

IRC junky; Italics are impossible on the IRC Clients I and others use, so / is used to convey them, or otherwise show emphasis. I /could/ use the forum italics, but not only are the backslashes (slightly) less time consuming, old habits die hard. Really, the fact that they convey emphasis ought to be obvious.I wasn't sure if you were a foreign speaker using words you weren't sure were right fits, using some font that I didn't have down loaded or what, so I decided to ask.

"Prohibitively Expensive"? Because actual food costs are so much lower? I'm willing to bet that if you could get major cities to give up food for a day, you'd set up free food for X people for life.Well, a cow is 10 gp. The average cow will dress out to about 500 lbs of food. 1 pound of ground beef can feed a family of four. Throw in some buns and cheese for another 2 gold or so. So you could look at feeding roughly 2000 people for 12 gold. How much does a golem cost again?

Now if you were going to more accurately critique this plan, it would be "The default DnD setting seems to rely on an agrarian economy. Peasants would be less then willing to give up their only source of reliable income", and quite frankly, my only concern was answering the immediate question.It's been a month or so since we had that thread, not sure how buried it is, but it's not really that good of an idea.
Either way, an Epic Level Spellcaster truly out to do good for the world can make rather large, very, /very/ nice changes if they so wish.
"The road to Hell is paved in good intentions."

Grey Paladin

2008-01-24, 01:33 AM

Step 1# "I wish that all creatures that the 'Detect Alignment' spell would detect as Evil cease to exit from the moment I finish casting this spell and never return to existence henceforth"

Most of the evil gods die (Some Evil gods will have some Neutral worshipers, some will have followers under "Undetectable Alignment"), shifting the Cosmic balance enough so the remaining Good gods can utterly vanquish the vile bastards that didn't get hit by this spell, and thus, all evil.

Step 2# Build a Spell Chamber (Mindrape) ((For the Greater Good TM!, or if you have the patience I guess you can use the epic version of Sanctify the Wicked :smallannoyed: )) and begin, with the help of your godly allies, summoning every living creature on earth and making them pass through the Chamber - Hardwiring hate out of them and making them all Exalted.

Step 3# With your own benevolent slave force, you can now use them to help you create all these permanent water dispensers/ect for free

Step 4# Enjoy your godhood

Step 5# Mindrape yourself into Exalted nonhate-hood if you wish to survive, as the gods are likely to want you dead now, given the fact you are the only remaining non exalted being in existence and thus the only possible source of corruption - losing your godhood (meh, being good never pays off)

Cyclone231

2008-01-24, 01:37 AM

Hey guys, why are you all referencing comic book retcons? Comic book retcons are pretty much all reversions to prior states, or undoing of changes the writers thing are stupid.

Was Forgotten Realms ever like what they're turning it into now?

While I don't read Forgotten Realms, if they did this sort of thing to Eberron (added new nations, removed old ones, killed off major characters, et cetera) I wouldn't mind. Hell, I'm hoping they rename the stuff in the Church of the Silver Flame so it doesn't sound catholic so it won't have inquisitions and witch burnings anymore.

Though killing off some of the gods in Eberron would be weird (as it's even questionable if the gods exist), and it would probably leave the pantheon with a missing character role, I wouldn't whine about it. Hell, even if they wrote out the Blood of Vol (probably my favorite thing in the entire setting), I wouldn't really care. It's not like the Blood of Vol is the end-all be-all of my setting. If they destroyed significant thematic aspects of the setting, oh well. No point organizing a boycott, just let it be bought or not bought based upon quality not upon whether or not my favorite thing is still in there.

Renegade Paladin

2008-01-24, 01:50 AM

EvilJames

2008-01-24, 01:51 AM

They had to reboot the FR so they can force all these nonsensical changes into it. Same reason they destroyed any possiblitiy of a new Planescape, because (at least according to the preview books they put out) everything you enjoyed about the worlds was stupid and despite what they have said many times in the past and much experience to the contrary no body used the stuff we are changing. That was their reason for getting rid of the great ring at least they seemed to think no one adventured there despite the popularity of Planescape.:smallmad:

Rutee

2008-01-24, 01:58 AM

I wasn't sure if you were a foreign speaker using words you weren't sure were right fits, using some font that I didn't have down loaded or what, so I decided to ask.
You sarcastically highlighted it because you thought I had a non-English language loaded? You sure you weren't making a poor attempt at mocking me and hedging with a more multiculturally friendly excuse after I wasn't fazed?

Well, a cow is 10 gp. The average cow will dress out to about 500 lbs of food. 1 pound of ground beef can feed a family of four. Throw in some buns and cheese for another 2 gold or so. So you could look at feeding roughly 2000 people for 12 gold. How much does a golem cost again?
The golems are the second, less important part. If you have the good sense to start small, you need the golems after you have a few cities fed. And really, we're talking about an Epic Caster; *Go make the money* and fund the golem yourself. We are talking about someone specifically out to do good, right? What's a little WBL compared to the good of the world?

"The road to Hell is paved in good intentions."
Heaven or Hell, doesn't make a difference to me, if I'm playing the Caster; It'll be an interesting trip.

*Sigh* You keep going on and on about how the metaplot is a bad thing, while totally missing the fact that without the metaplot, the whole world is static. When the world changes? Yeah, that's metaplot. If there was no metaplot then the campaign setting would be permanently frozen on Shieldmeet, 1372 Dale Reckoning, with no advancement possible because - oops - advancing the timeline constitutes metaplot.
As I said, if people are going to strip context from my posts, I will begin communicating in either Legalese or Lojban*, neither of which is pleasant to the ordinary forum goer. One moment while I quote myself.

I'm not talking about setting. I'm talking the over-arcing, *Wizards Written* plots wherein <NPC Y or Z> does uber, awesome things that in at least some cases, will shake the world. That NPC is the star. This is to be expected, in a sense; It's in the FR, and he's a high level character capable of doing awesome things. Problem is, and no matter how much it's maintained that "Nobody does this", or "Only bad DMs do this", /those NPCs and those plots get taken as more important then the people sitting at the table/. That genuinely should not be the case; Regardless of your intent, it's just flat out /rude/ to treat people sitting next to you badly.
Metaplot is the Wizards Written crap like the novels. The setting can change, on its own, realistically, without the Wizards Written Crap. Trust me, I know these things; I've done them. It happens. It doesn't even need to always be because of the PCs' actions, for those of you who 'don't like the PCs being the center of the world'. Maybe tensions between two countries have been boiling over, and one decides to invade the other, or some other fine mess for the PCs to get themselves involved with (Or not, if they don't care).

*No, I do not know Lojban. I will, however, go out of my way to learn it, for the sole purpose of making good on my threat, if my Legalese proves insufficient.

Woot Spitum

2008-01-24, 02:09 AM

Well, a cow is 10 gp. The average cow will dress out to about 500 lbs of food. 1 pound of ground beef can feed a family of four. Throw in some buns and cheese for another 2 gold or so. So you could look at feeding roughly 2000 people for 12 gold. How much does a golem cost again?Remember that to feed the whole world, you would need enough food for about four to eight billion people. Assuming a population of four billion, that works out to two million gold, already more expensive than several golems. Of course, since most people expect three meals a day, the price increases to six million gold per day. To feed the whole world for a year would cost two trillion and one hundred ninety billion gold (365x6,000,000=2,190,000,000). But since you are trying to eradicate world hunger permanently, you have to keep this up forever. You will have to turn yourself into a lich at some point so that your death will not cause everything to stop, leaving a people dependent on your efforts to feed them suddenly helpless. Fortunately for you, Forgotten Realms (unlike Greyhawk and most other settings) has a good-aligned lich variant, otherwise you would automatically become evil and the whole plan would fall apart.

Note that this doesn't even get into the logistical difficulties such an undertaking would have. So in the long run, it's much easier and cost-effective to get some golems.:smallbiggrin:

horseboy

2008-01-24, 02:31 AM

Sstoopidtallkid

2008-01-24, 02:33 AM

Look who just committed MASSIVE acts of genocide.
Look who just popped up evil.
Look who just ceased to exist.Look at the original poster's name.

Moral Wiz

2008-01-24, 02:39 AM

Apart from anything else, the sneaky evil, who uses UA items, won't register. And they'll end up causing more evil, and more evil beings. So in the end, it just causes more evil. ;p

Rutee

2008-01-24, 02:42 AM

Look who just committed MASSIVE acts of genocide.
Look who just popped up evil.
Look who just ceased to exist.

....He discusses mindraping all of humanity, and then yourself. That was completely tongue in cheek...

horseboy

2008-01-24, 02:42 AM

Remember that to feed the whole world, you would need enough food for about four to eight billion people. Assuming a population of four billion, that works out to two million gold, already more expensive than several golems. Of course, since most people expect three meals a day, the price increases to six million gold per day. To feed the whole world for a year would cost two trillion and one hundred ninety billion gold (365x6,000,000=2,190,000,000). But since you are trying to eradicate world hunger permanently, you have to keep this up forever. You will have to turn yourself into a lich at some point so that your death will not cause everything to stop, leaving a people dependent on your efforts to feed them suddenly helpless. Fortunately for you, Forgotten Realms (unlike Greyhawk and most other settings) has a good-aligned lich variant, otherwise you would automatically become evil and the whole plan would fall apart.

Note that this doesn't even get into the logistical difficulties such an undertaking would have. So in the long run, it's much easier and cost-effective to get some golems.:smallbiggrin:
You're missing one little thing: New cows are free. :smallwink:
I mean, if you really were that interested in that sort of thing, you could just Genesis a giant prairie where you can have a nice cattle farm and then teleport them where they need to go. You don't loose cows, since it's an enclosed system, hit new cows with cure disease before introducing them to the herd, they sit there without predators, growing fat and happy. Then teleport them where the market demands them. If you're feeling generous you could even sell them for 5 gp a head. Then the rest of the cattle barons get pissed at you, hire a rag-tag band of misfits to assault your home, kill you and take your stuff. Nope, you're better off not getting involved in the first place, if you want to live anyway.

edit:

....He discusses mindraping all of humanity, and then yourself. That was completely tongue in cheek...

Yeah, failed my detect sarcasm check.

Talic

2008-01-24, 03:01 AM

I, for one, like it. There are many people who like the concept of the Forgotten Realms, and are familiar with it, but don't like the sheer amount of novels written for it. I mean, a DM can't run FR for 15 mins without a player saying, "uh uh, the layout of shadowdale, according to book 74312.2, clearly shows the inn on the far side of the town, AWAY from the graveyard."

There's a rich background, and there's TOO much detail. Sometimes, a fresh start really is in order.

And, if you don't like it, the old setting has all the flavor still... Just convert the mechanics.

EvilJames

2008-01-24, 03:21 AM

a little reboot to get rid of clutter is one thing , this complet overhaul goes well beyond that making changes for no other reason than they can.

Talic

2008-01-24, 03:25 AM

a little reboot to get rid of clutter is one thing , this complet overhaul goes well beyond that making changes for no other reason than they can.

In order to get rid of the hundreds of books of detail, they must create a situation drastic enough to affect the entire campaign setting, in such a way as to explain all the little voids.

It can't be a "little reboot", if it's a reboot at all.

Prophaniti

2008-01-24, 04:57 AM

Step 1# "I wish that all creatures that the 'Detect Alignment' spell would detect as Evil cease to exit from the moment I finish casting this spell and never return to existence henceforth"Dear Lord, what is it with you people and thinking a Wish spell will let you get a way with anything?! It's seriously starting to aggrevate me. I'll say it one more time:
Wish Spells Do Not Work That Way
Seriously, every time I see a wizard thread or a power discussion thread and someone says 'Well, I'll just cast Wish to . So there!' it makes me want to beat them over the head with my PHB. The only controlable or predictable functions are those listed in the spell description. Anything beyond or above that and it's uncontrollable and unpredictable, and nothing guarantees it will work as you wanted, or even at all. And no matter how powerful you get you will never cast a Wish that can kill a god. They're more powerful still. They'll laugh at your feable attempt, then come destroy [I]you utterly, which they are most asuredly powerful enough to do.

Look, I personally don't care much about the reboot. I have most of the FR books and they can't change what's already printed in them, so I can continue playing the FR I know and like as long as I please. I do think that with a reboot as extensive as I understand this one to be they might as well be honest, slap a new name on it (or at least FR II) and call it a new setting. Because that's what it is.

What I can't figure out is why everyone seems to think that
A) the NPCs in any way detract the attention of a campaign from the players. FR is a whole world and there's no reason for the NPCs to steal spotlight unless someone wants them to, just like any other NPC in any other setting.

B) as soon as someone gets to level 21, they take over the world or blow it up. It's not that powerful! Not even a level 40 character could destroy a greater deity, nor have sufficient resources to feed and clothe the world, while stopping all conflicts, riots, unrest, battles, ect. No matter how powerful a mage gets he can't take over or destroy everything in a setting with active deities. Unless he manages to get them ALL behind him, including overlord deities like Ao, which will never happen.

Whether the existing FR has too much pre-set detail is entirely a matter of opinion. Don't like it? Don't play in it. Keep your Wish spell pipe-dreams out of a perfectly viable, rich setting.

@Rutee: You're right, I only responded to that specific part of your post earlier, and it was somewhat out of context. I apologize, I was at work and distracted. I still stand by my basic point, however. Over-arcing plots and powerful NPCs can only enrich a role-playing experience for me. If you don't enjoy them, that's fine. It's your game too. FR just isn't the setting for you.

Talic

2008-01-24, 05:16 AM

What I can't figure out is why everyone seems to think that
A) the NPCs in any way detract the attention of a campaign from the players. FR is a whole world and there's no reason for the NPCs to steal spotlight unless someone wants them to, just like any other NPC in any other setting.

Simple. In a world with so many high power NPC's, it's hard to imagine why they wouldn't get involved from time to time in those massive sweeping cataclysmic plots that DMs love. Especially when they involve cities that powerful npc X lives in. Which is almost everywhere, in FR.

B) as soon as someone gets to level 21, they take over the world or blow it up. It's not that powerful! Not even a level 40 character could destroy a greater deity, nor have sufficient resources to feed and clothe the world, while stopping all conflicts, riots, unrest, battles, ect. No matter how powerful a mage gets he can't take over or destroy everything in a setting with active deities. Unless he manages to get them ALL behind him, including overlord deities like Ao, which will never happen.

One word. Raistlin.

Seriously, though, they don't need all the deities. Just enough, with a good enough MacGuffin, to tip the Deity balance... I mean, those crazy deities are always swiping portfolios from each other. Strictly by RAW, a level 21 character is capable of taking on most anything listed in a MM.

Whether the existing FR has too much pre-set detail is entirely a matter of opinion. Don't like it? Don't play in it. Keep your Wish spell pipe-dreams out of a perfectly viable, rich setting.

Same could be said for anyone who doesn't like the WOTC reset. Yes, it is an opinion. But it's a fact that too many FR sticklers are too in love with their novels to stop nitpicking a DM with less than encyclopedic knowledge of FR. And it's a fact that starting with 4th ed., and material with "Forgotten Realms" on the cover will be post-reboot. To quote you... Don't like it? Don't play in it. Keep your status-quo static realms pipe dreams out of a perfectly viable, dynamic setting.

Prophaniti

2008-01-24, 05:33 AM

I'm pretty sure I said somewhere in my (apparently) incoherent ramblings that I don't really care about the reboot. It remains to be seen if I will play it or not. My rant had nothing to do with the viability or falibility of the restructured world.

EDIT: Raistlin was an exception, not the rule. He found a specific weakness and the means to exploit it. Recall that this was in a novel, not something allowed by the mechanics of the game. Perhaps something similar is possible in FR, but it still has something Dragonlance does not. Ao. An overlord type deity would have stopped Raist cold. (Also, technically it didn't happen anyway, thanks to our friend Time Travel, but that's hardly a valid point of argument.)

Talic

2008-01-24, 06:11 AM

EDIT: Raistlin was an exception, not the rule.

PC's are the exception, not the rule. They do more in 3 months than most NPC's do their whole lives.

The Professor

2008-01-24, 06:51 AM

I've made a post about this stuff before, so I'll try to keep this brief and simple.

Tons of uber NPCs aren't bad. They can enrich a setting. Why aren't they fixing everything the lower-level PCs are trying to fix? Easy, as Elminster had it in the FRCS, all the BAD uber NPCs are just waiting for other folks to let their guard down for a second, and then smash 'em.

I don't like the reboot, because it'll be different then the novels. I've only ever read three of them; (and I'm not attached to them) but what if someone picks one up a year from now, gets excited, and then realizes that all the stuff he just read is old news, and isn't actively supported anymore?

My final beef, is that the old realms, where NOT nearly all deities and all spellcasters of a decent level die, will no longer be supported. No new books, maps, etc. Not even new novels for the same thing.

Eh, longer then I intended.

Serenity

2008-01-24, 08:15 AM

*Sigh* You keep going on and on about how the metaplot is a bad thing, while totally missing the fact that without the metaplot, the whole world is static. When the world changes? Yeah, that's metaplot. If there was no metaplot then the campaign setting would be permanently frozen on Shieldmeet, 1372 Dale Reckoning, with no advancement possible because - oops - advancing the timeline constitutes metaplot. :smallyuk:

Advancement is perfectly possible without a metaplot. It's just incumbent on the DM to make those changes rather than on the company publishing the setting. Why should I as the DM need WotC to tell me how the setting I'm running changes over time? Give me the countries in the setting, the identities of some of the major movers and shakers, the races, the Gods, etc.--basic setting information. That's all I need to run a campaign.

I will say I'm not happy about the way they're choosing to reboot FR, in the main because of some of the stupid causes like Tyr killing Helm. But I have a very hard time getting particularly upset about it. My friend has a copy of the 3.x FRCS. If I end up converting to 4e and want to run FR, I'll just adapt the 3.x setting.

Sstoopidtallkid

2008-01-24, 08:24 AM

I've had groups that could do significant damage to a setting. At low levels. Any sort of metaplot would end up with us burning down the building the next session was supposed to be based in. Last Saturday we caused an invasion of our home island by a group of humanoid lizards from an alternate plane looking for slaves. At the very least any overarching plot will require an adaptable DM or willing suspension of disbelief. One of those is impossible with pre-published material longer than a single module, which is why I never play in LG or FR.

Counterspin

2008-01-24, 10:25 AM

Hey guys, metaplot is the stuff that comes from Wizards. The changes that occur as the result of your game are called *drumroll* Plot. My plot can change lots of things in FR without using the metaplot at all. Again, I write an adventure for my party where they fight a local gang, and that gang get's decimated - PLOT. I read my new FR and there's this spellplague thing - METAPLOT.

CASTLEMIKE

2008-01-24, 11:02 AM

I don't know if I missed it, and I am sorry if I did, but can someone tell me where this official reboot of FR can be found.

The year is DR 1479:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080111a

dwaro

2008-01-24, 11:11 AM

EDIT: Raistlin was an exception, not the rule. He found a specific weakness and the means to exploit it. Recall that this was in a novel, not something allowed by the mechanics of the game. Perhaps something similar is possible in FR, but it still has something Dragonlance does not. Ao. An overlord type deity would have stopped Raist cold. (Also, technically it didn't happen anyway, thanks to our friend Time Travel, but that's hardly a valid point of argument.)

Technically, Dragonlance does have an overlord type deity. Except, it didn't exist at the time that Legends was written and was only retconned in later. So, pretty much the same as in Forgotten Realms.

And I don't think Ao would disallow something like this. As long as the deity's place and portfolio was taken up by the usurper and the balance preserved, I don't think Ao gives two hoots about whether deities are killed. He might object to a single mortal killing all of the gods, though.

Grey Paladin

2008-01-24, 12:40 PM

Prophaniti:
First of all, you fail to address my original question: why isn't the war still raging on?

And now to the discussion on Wish: The nature of Wish was handwaved in the transition between 2E and 3E, unless the Novels somehow retconned with it Wish still works like this: You wish for something - What the Wish spell actually does is translate your Wish into Words of Creation - and if worded properly, it happens if it doesn't encounters an opposing Wish.

Deities are out of the question for Wish to effect, all their followers, on the other hand, can be easily destroyed - and a deity with no followers ceases to exist.

If we actually seek to be realistic as to the reason that no level 21 caster will take over the world - its because that, realistically, the gods with of an opposing alignment to the Caster in question will smite him to oblivion the moment he gains the power to fight them directly, Epic characters are far too dangerous to be left alone.

RedShift zX

2008-01-24, 01:14 PM

Woot Spitum

2008-01-24, 02:00 PM

I mean, if you really were that interested in that sort of thing, you could just Genesis a giant prairie where you can have a nice cattle farm and then teleport them where they need to go. You don't loose cows, since it's an enclosed system, hit new cows with cure disease before introducing them to the herd, they sit there without predators, growing fat and happy. Then teleport them where the market demands them. If you're feeling generous you could even sell them for 5 gp a head. Then the rest of the cattle barons get pissed at you, hire a rag-tag band of misfits to assault your home, kill you and take your stuff. Nope, you're better off not getting involved in the first place, if you want to live anyway.
I think this is why most wizards are true neutral.:smallamused:

Renegade Paladin

2008-01-24, 02:14 PM

Simple. In a world with so many high power NPC's, it's hard to imagine why they wouldn't get involved from time to time in those massive sweeping cataclysmic plots that DMs love. Especially when they involve cities that powerful npc X lives in. Which is almost everywhere, in FR.
No, it's not. Hell, not even all the biggest cities have powerful NPCs in residence. What epic NPCs live in Baldur's Gate? Come on, name one. :smallannoyed:

Starbuck_II

2008-01-24, 02:25 PM

No, it's not. Hell, not even all the biggest cities have powerful NPCs in residence. What epic NPCs live in Baldur's Gate? Come on, name one. :smallannoyed:

There were a few, but they died I think at some point.

EvilJames

2008-01-24, 02:52 PM

In order to get rid of the hundreds of books of detail, they must create a situation drastic enough to affect the entire campaign setting, in such a way as to explain all the little voids.

It can't be a "little reboot", if it's a reboot at all.

perhaps but the changes they've made they may as well just ended FR and started a different campaign world.

Counterspin

2008-01-24, 02:57 PM

Not true. This has clearly been a decision to keep what the designers view as the salvagable parts of the realms, in particular organizations. I think there's a lot of good material which could be created based on those premises, things that got overlooked in the old NPC heavy realms.

mostlyharmful

2008-01-24, 03:12 PM

/Off topic/

Speaking of Raistlen, what character levels would you guys say he is? After his "encounter" With Fisthandantilus -(spelling?) I was thinking Level 38 Wizard With 5 levels in Archmage? Total level 43?

Might be a little too far, bit at the end of the Twins series, he's two of the most powerful wizards ever, Combined...Input? I mean he does have the power to destroy Tahkesis..

If i rememeber from the Epic level handbook, Elminster is only a level 24 Wizard with 5 levels of Archmage..With a bunch of other random multi-class stuff thrown in.

He got stated up in that alternate timelines of Krynn book, he was 27th :smallconfused: . He didn't even have Epic Spellcasting.

And for those that think FR is too cramed with detail from the books.... It's an entire friggin CONTINENT on a planet probably about the size of Earth... If you don't want your PCs telling you the exact layout of Shadowdale then go have fun in Turmish, Sespech, The Vast, Luiren, the Moonshaes, etc..... If you want the kind of setting with big NPCs and extranious details FR has it, but it also has areas that aren't fleshed out and don't have to have wandering Book characters in.

Rutee

2008-01-24, 03:20 PM

And for those that think FR is too cramed with detail from the books.... It's an entire friggin CONTINENT on a planet probably about the size of Earth... If you don't want your PCs telling you the exact layout of Shadowdale then go have fun in Turmish, Sespech, The Vast, Luiren, the Moonshaes, etc..... If you want the kind of setting with big NPCs and extranious details FR has it, but it also has areas that aren't fleshed out and don't have to have wandering Book characters in.

Wouldn't that defeat the entire purpose to playing in the FR, and you'd be just as well served creating a homebrew?

Counterspin

2008-01-24, 03:22 PM

Second Rutee, as I find I do on many things, other than intentionality :)

mostlyharmful

2008-01-24, 03:27 PM

Wouldn't that defeat the entire purpose to playing in the FR, and you'd be just as well served creating a homebrew?

:smallconfused: A homebrew world where all the Gods are the same, as are the races usable, the Prc, the Feats, the Organizations to fight (see Cult of the Dragon, Harpers, that cool elven rascist one, so on), the Weave/Shadow weave is the basis of magic, the history and ruins are as well fleshed out in a comprehensive timeline that the DM doesn't need to write and all the background details remain the same (calender, flora, fauna, dating systems, languages, writing systems, etc.. ).

Best of all the DM can reference the rest of the world without having to think about it to give the sense of it being out there at the drop of a hat. This doesn't mean Elminster drops by, it means that when you say the merchant is from Thesk it means something to the players without a half hour interlude to explain what their PCs should know off the top of the DMs head.

Counterspin

2008-01-24, 03:34 PM

But doesn't doing it that way drag all the annoying nitpicking right back in? Either you're using the FR stuff, and you get nitpicking, or your not and you don't. Choose one not both.

Rutee

2008-01-24, 03:36 PM

:smallconfused: A homebrew world where all the Gods are the same, as are the races usable, the Prc, the Feats, the Organizations to fight (see Cult of the Dragon, Harpers, that cool elven rascist one, so on), the Weave/Shadow weave is the basis of magic, the history and ruins are as well fleshed out in a comprehensive timeline that the DM doesn't need to write and all the background details remain the same (calender, flora, fauna, dating systems, languages, writing systems, etc.. ).
Waaaait, so these organizations are globe-spanning, and you know this for a fact within the setting, despite the fact that these other continents and locations are hardly fleshed out? Further, these disparate cultures and continents all worship the same gods?

Best of all the DM can reference the rest of the world without having to think about it to give the sense of it being out there at the drop of a hat. This doesn't mean Elminster drops by, it means that when you say the merchant is from Thesk it means something to the players without a half hour interlude to explain what their PCs should know off the top of the DMs head.

Yes, that's certainly true, with the exception of the "30 minute interlude".

Diamondeye

2008-01-24, 03:52 PM

Wouldn't that defeat the entire purpose to playing in the FR, and you'd be just as well served creating a homebrew?

You mean aside from the fact that playing in FR removes the need to create a homebrew, which is A) timesonsuming and B) not enjoyable for every DM?

No, of course not. It's not an all-or-nothing dilemma where you either play in some location where the major characters and events take place or you play in some place that's never been in a novel and into which none of the flavor of the books and such ever intrude.

That would be like homebrewing a Star Wars setting because your adventures take care in the Ineverheardofit system and the Whodathunkit system instead of on Bespin or Coruscant. The rest of the world/galaxy serves as a backdrop.

Or, think of it another way. You're playing a game set in medieval Ireland during the Crusades. Just because you're not playing in the Crusade area of the world doesn't mean you want to homebrew a new earth.

Rutee

2008-01-24, 03:54 PM

No, of course not. It's not an all-or-nothing dilemma where you either play in some location where the major characters and events take place or you play in some place that's never been in a novel and into which none of the flavor of the books and such ever intrude.
That was, in fact, /entirely/ the suggestion, if I'm not mistaken.

mostlyharmful

2008-01-24, 03:55 PM

Waaaait, so these organizations are globe-spanning, and you know this for a fact within the setting, despite the fact that these other continents and locations are hardly fleshed out? Further, these disparate cultures and continents all worship the same gods?

Some of them are, but with those I was mostly talking about less well stated places in Faerun, see Turmish, Sespech, Luiren, Moonshaes, Impultir, blah blah blah, there are LOTS of places not layed out and finalized. And "know this for a fact"? The entire point is that you can use these areas without someone leaning over your shoulder and demanding that it goes like such and such. Come to think of it that's true of anywhere in FR with a half decent DM, no NPC is essential to the world's FR flavour not even Elminster, neither is any specific God or Organization.

"But doesn't doing it that way drag all the annoying nitpicking right back in? Either you're using the FR stuff, and you get nitpicking, or your not and you don't. Choose one not both."

No, it really doesn't. I can use the passive background details just fine without reference to high level NPCs in almost all cases. With some organizations at high levels recognizable NPCs will occasionally be brought in but at those levels a homebrew world will have the same reactions with similar level opponents.

and "nitpicking"? how does knowing the sorts of trees in the local area or being able to talk about trade routes and accents bring in the high level NPCs that everyone oppossed to FR seem to hate and be the source of all the arguements. Detailed accounts of specific areas and people are great if you want to include them but you don't have to use all of them.

FRs is a great setting for metaplot and high level NPCs if you like that sort of thing. If you don't as Rutee clearly doesn't then don't use it but don't be surprised when those who do like it object.

Diamondeye

2008-01-24, 04:10 PM

That was, in fact, /entirely/ the suggestion, if I'm not mistaken.

Entirely whose suggestion? Certainly not mine; I'm speaking for myself, not picking up someone else's argument.

Besides, the really important part of the post was the beginning, even though it took longer to explain the part you responded to: I have been exceedingly dissatisfied with my attempts at homebrew settings. FR provides a setting for me, relieving the need for cartography (that by itself is a justification for me), the design of the cultures, the creation of a history, etc. All that before you even start designing any of the adventures or areas the PCs will need hard details on.

Yes, I know you can design it bit by bit, not all at once, but this is exceedingly unsatisfying to me, and it also makes it difficult to wing it when I have to, there's little "rest of the world" to draw on for inspiration. It's just me and my imagination, and my imagination works a lot better when it's got a solid "idea base" to draw on.

horseboy

2008-01-24, 04:43 PM

Yes, that's certainly true, with the exception of the "30 minute interlude". The "Who are these [places/people/things] and why should I care?" question is one of the biggest hurdles to players in privately brewed settings. To get them to know enough to care would entail either a 30 minute interlude, reading the 50+ reference manual the DM has written to fill in such details for me or reading two years worth of Forgotten Realms and Advanced Dungeon & Dragon comics.

Rutee

2008-01-24, 05:06 PM

The "Who are these [places/people/things] and why should I care?" question is one of the biggest hurdles to players in privately brewed settings. To get them to know enough to care would entail either a 30 minute interlude, reading the 50+ reference manual the DM has written to fill in such details for me or reading two years worth of Forgotten Realms and Advanced Dungeon & Dragon comics.

You simulationist people seem to lead a much harder life then I do, apparently. It doesn't take nearly so long to explain New NPC Y's possible story role or 3 before moving along.

relieving the need for cartography (that by itself is a justification for me)
Much, much harder lives. Culture's important of course, but exactly how much history do you need? Are you trying to mimic Tolkien, or tell a tale? Because ancient myths functioned without 400 pages of history exposition for the lead in (Arguably, they had less history at the time /anyway/, of course)

Entirely whose suggestion? Certainly not mine; I'm speaking for myself, not picking up someone else's argument.
Perhaps you should look at what I'm quoting when you move to pick it apart/argue against it, as opposed to taking what I say in a void. It works so much better for overall coherence, or give some indication that what I said was predicated on someone else's words?

Some of them are, but with those I was mostly talking about less well stated places in Faerun, see Turmish, Sespech, Luiren, Moonshaes, Impultir, blah blah blah, there are LOTS of places not layed out and finalized. And "know this for a fact"? The entire point is that you can use these areas without someone leaning over your shoulder and demanding that it goes like such and such. Come to think of it that's true of anywhere in FR with a half decent DM, no NPC is essential to the world's FR flavour not even Elminster, neither is any specific God or Organization.
...You listed specific organizations that you could still use, within the context of moving the game to a lesser known location, and I could ahve sworn I saw seperate continents listed there, which would be sensical. Don't get on my case for your original suggestion of bringing those organizations in.

mostlyharmful

2008-01-24, 05:57 PM

...You listed specific organizations that you could still use, within the context of moving the game to a lesser known location, and I could ahve sworn I saw seperate continents listed there, which would be sensical. Don't get on my case for your original suggestion of bringing those organizations in.

Er. I'm not on your case. I Certainly didn't mean to sound as though I was. I find what you've been saying in this thread interesting and worth replying to, otherwise I wouldn't.

Now my original post was this:

"And for those that think FR is too cramed with detail from the books.... It's an entire friggin CONTINENT on a planet probably about the size of Earth... If you don't want your PCs telling you the exact layout of Shadowdale then go have fun in Turmish, Sespech, The Vast, Luiren, the Moonshaes, etc..... If you want the kind of setting with big NPCs and extranious details FR has it, but it also has areas that aren't fleshed out and don't have to have wandering Book characters in."

now looking back on it, yes it's not the clearest since I start by pointing out that Faerun is one continet amoung several and then follow up with listing a few locastions in faerun that aren't overused in the books but the I think the point is mostly valid albeit based on a knowledge of the names of areas in Faerun that a non-Faerun supporter might not be familar with

Again, sorry if there was a misunderstanding of how it was formatted, next time I'll put in more emotive icons. :smallsmile: :smalleek: :smallcool: :smallannoyed: :smallamused: 80% of communication being nonverbal can be annoying sometimes.:smallsmile:

Counterspin

2008-01-24, 06:11 PM

VanBuren

2008-01-24, 06:19 PM

mostlyharmful

2008-01-24, 06:23 PM

If you're using the organizations, and areas which are integrated into greater FR, what's to stop your PCs from telling you exact layout of any of those places, or the structure of those world spanning organizations you want to keep? To the extent you keep existing fluff, you open yourself to the nitpicking you describe, because the FR freak in your group has access to all the stuff you do. The only way to get rid of nit picking is to ditch FR.

Well this page most of what I've been saying FR provides is basic background fluff and if you have a decent group together they'll accept that and might help you out on occasion with pointless stuff that adds to the scene without detracting from anyones enjoyment, things along the lines of the times of year that Blueleaf trees start to turn or that inns in Rasheman often serve stinky cheese with their evening meal.. If you've got an ass in your group then they will be an ass about whatever they choose and it's up to you to show them that the world you're creating is being created by you not the assembled writers of WotC. The same kind of stupidity can be achieved in virtualy any world that even remotely resembles Earth and it's the fault of the player not the DM or the writers.

horseboy

2008-01-24, 06:51 PM

You said this : If you don't want your PCs telling you the exact layout of Shadowdale then go have fun in Turmish, Sespech, The Vast, Luiren, the Moonshaes, etc.....

I said this : But doesn't doing it that way drag all the annoying nitpicking right back in? Either you're using the FR stuff, and you get nitpicking, or your not and you don't. Choose one not both.

If you're using the organizations, and areas which are integrated into greater FR, what's to stop your PCs from telling you exact layout of any of those places, or the structure of those world spanning organizations you want to keep? To the extent you keep existing fluff, you open yourself to the nitpicking you describe, because the FR freak in your group has access to all the stuff you do. The only way to get rid of nit picking is to ditch FR.
Eh, it's more like:
DM: "Guys, I've got an idea for a Corymyr campaign."
Players: *scribble, scribble* "Wait? Corymyr? We're actually going to need Use Rope, aren't we?"
The Harpers are pretty much all over, that's what secret spy organizations do. Sure, they may get an order signed by Elminster once, heck they may even beat him in the Employee Sack Race. But he's not going to get involved in any of their missions.

Oh, and Rutee, There's roughly 300 pages of geographic, historic and cultural information in the Player's Compendium, Game Master's Compendium, and Name Giver's Compedium of one of my preferred systems. The more you can give me, the more I'll care. :smallamused:

Counterspin

2008-01-24, 08:50 PM

Mostlyharmful : You brought up the nitpicking, why am I getting harassed for positing its existence?

Horseboy : Who said anything about Elminster? I have said not a word thusfar about powerful NPCs.

EvilElitest

2008-01-24, 10:50 PM

In order,
"Stinging" in the sense that a gadfly stings a horse; An annoyance.
Yes.
Um rutee, i was talking about my theory on the end of page nine.
from
EE
Edit
Counterspin, you are aware their is a quote function right?

Matthew

2008-01-24, 10:52 PM

The main reason I'm not in favour of the Forgotten Realms reboot is that it will no longer be familiar to me. I only really run/play prewritten stuff in the Forgotten Realms and that's how I like it. I don't want to have to become familiar with a new Forgotten Realms to run/play new prewritten stuff there. Of course, it all depends what you want out of a prepublished setting. Perfect internal mechanical consistancy and believeable economics (or economics of power) are not what I look to the Forgotten Realms for.

Drakron

2008-01-24, 10:55 PM

Well the nitpicking is a non-issue, the only book that the players can use is the PHB and even that one can be voided by house rules.

All others are DM approved, it can be a minor issue if you say you are running the world by the books and someone spots a inconsistence but that is easy solved.

I never had a issue, even if kinda forgot were the hell were my players in Waterdeep a few times.

The issue you can have is the novels, I remember one of the Sembia that did more that just take liberties with the game rules, it destroyed one (only ONE patron god/dess for a divine spellcaster) and no way in hell was I would allow that to be used as a "official ruling".

comicshorse

2008-01-25, 09:51 AM

EvilElitest

2008-01-25, 12:05 PM

Diamondeye

2008-01-25, 12:15 PM

Perhaps you should look at what I'm quoting when you move to pick it apart/argue against it, as opposed to taking what I say in a void. It works so much better for overall coherence, or give some indication that what I said was predicated on someone else's words?

I think it should be fairly clear that I did read what you were responding to, since your sentance, in a vaccuum, could have meant almost anything and would have been impossible to respond to.

Now, do you have anything to say in response to my assertion that using a prepared setting saves time and makes life easier for those of us who lack the inclination and ability to come up with our own?

rickvoid

2008-01-25, 01:03 PM

Diverging slightly from the current posts, but staying true to the original, I think I may stop reading the Drizzt books.

Spell-plauge description+Cattie-Brie learning wizardry= ARGH!!!!! So mad right now.

Why are all my favorite series going straight to Hell? First it was Star Wars with Jacen Solo AKA Darth Vader Ver. 2, now it's D&D. What's next, the Dresden Files? The Noble Dead novels? Those are pretty much all I've got left... Dammit.:smallannoyed:

Trog

2008-01-25, 01:14 PM

Matthew

2008-01-25, 01:20 PM

Just do what I did when they did the first "reboot" of FR (Cyric? Who is that? We only worship Bane, Baahl and Myrkul here.).... ignore it. It's honestly not that had to do. Worlds and Monsters previews the new world which has no map and lets DMs do whatever they want, basically. Sounds like a plan to me.

I think it is fairly obvious that is exactly what a lot of people are going to do. That isn't really the point, which is that they'd rather not have to.

Woot Spitum

2008-01-25, 02:12 PM

I was discussing this whole re-boot with a friend and he raised a very obvious point. Even if all the 14th Level Arcane Casters die, surely most of them will logically be Raised/Resseructeed/etc by their Cleric buddies ?Hah! I can see it now:

Elminster: Greatly do we mourn our fallen brethren on this day, snatched from the prime of life by the vicitudes of fortune, never to return to...

Cadderly: Dude, True Resurrection.

Elminster: ...oh...yeah...forgot about that.

Drizzt: I am conflicted. First I am happy to know that Toril will not permanently suffer the loss of so many of her best and brightest. And yet, is this truly the right course of action? Would we unwittingly upset some cosmic balance that has recently been achieved through the spellplague? And what of so many others that have died over the years? Are we to neglect them merely for their lack of magical talent? To what do we...

Cadderly: Shut up and get me some diamonds already.

EvilElitest

2008-01-25, 05:37 PM

Hah! I can see it now:

Elminster: Greatly do we mourn our fallen brethren on this day, snatched from the prime of life by the vicitudes of fortune, never to return to...

Cadderly: Dude, True Resurrection.

Elminster: ...oh...yeah...forgot about that.

Drizzt: I am conflicted. First I am happy to know that Toril will not permanently suffer the loss of so many of her best and brightest. And yet, is this truly the right course of action? Would we unwittingly upset some cosmic balance that has recently been achieved through the spellplague? And what of so many others that have died over the years? Are we to neglect them merely for their lack of magical talent? To what do we...

Cadderly: Shut up and get me some diamonds already.

Drizzt-Diamonds, look girl, haven't you notice i don't get payed for this job?
from
EE

Tren

2008-01-25, 06:39 PM

Cadderly not Catti-Brie...

Drakron

2008-01-25, 10:54 PM

-Silly double post-

Drakron

2008-01-25, 10:55 PM

...

Spell-plauge description+Cattie-Brie learning wizardry= ARGH!!!!! So mad right now.
...

Come on, look at the irony ... Salvatore designed Cattie-Brie as a 1st ed AD&D Monk despite the fact there was no monks (as a class) in 2nd ed. AD&D and now WotC "computer game designers" ignore the fact the character was created and make it cast spells in the "4 Ed" Dark Sun Forgotten Realms.

Do not be mad, it was WotC that really made me have a detachment of the things I enjoy so I am not mad when someone screws it up later ... heck I own then from not being pissed off with the Star Wars Prequels.

Tren

2008-01-25, 11:21 PM

Have we stepped into some parallel literary universe where Cadderly has become the fiery dwarf-raised love interest of Drizzt and Catti-brie the bookish monk/cleric of the Cleric quintet? :smalleek:

LibraryOgre

2008-01-25, 11:31 PM

Have we stepped into some parallel literary universe where Cadderly has become the fiery dwarf-raised love interest of Drizzt and Catti-brie the bookish monk/cleric of the Cleric quintet? :smalleek:

Actually, she seems to have become Danica...

Woot Spitum

2008-01-25, 11:33 PM

Cadderly not Catti-Brie...

Have we stepped into some parallel literary universe where Cadderly has become the fiery dwarf-raised love interest of Drizzt and Catti-brie the bookish monk/cleric of the Cleric quintet? :smalleek: Who are you talking to? When I posted about Cadderly, I was talking about the protaganist of the cleric quintet. What does Catti-brie have to do with anything I posted?:smallconfused:

On a related note, if Catti-brie does begin to learn wizardry, I wouldn't be surprised in the least. Her class seems to be whatever Salvatore feels it should be at any given moment.

Tren

2008-01-25, 11:38 PM

Who are you talking to? When I posted about Cadderly, I was talking about the protaganist of the cleric quintet. What does Catti-brie have to do with anything I posted?:smallconfused:

EE and Drakon. They seem to have the two confused.

EvilElitest

2008-01-25, 11:42 PM

EE and Drakon. They seem to have the two confused.

That was my bad, sorry

On a related note, if Catti-brie does begin to learn wizardry, I wouldn't be surprised in the least. Her class seems to be whatever Salvatore feels it should be at any given moment.
In salvators defense, the rules keep getting changed on him
from
EE

Woot Spitum

2008-01-25, 11:58 PM

EE and Drakon. They seem to have the two confused. Ah, sorry I thought you were referring to me. Had me confused for a second.

Drakron

2008-01-26, 04:22 PM

EE and Drakon. They seem to have the two confused.

I guess so ... Tren confused me when he put Cadderly and Catti-Brie together and its been years since I read any of the Salvatore novels so mix then up.

And it seems the "learned magic" originate from Salvatore himself so its not like we can really complain about it, also it fits within the current rules (not Salvatore is above of throwing away the rules) ... if you want to complain about the novels impact on the setting then its another subject.

Rutee

2008-01-26, 04:44 PM

And it seems the "learned magic" originate from Salvatore himself so its not like we can really complain about it, also it fits within the current rules (not Salvatore is above of throwing away the rules) ... if you want to complain about the novels impact on the setting then its another subject.
You realize that it's been the entire crux of my argument all along, no? :P

Drakron

2008-01-26, 05:04 PM

There are ... differences.

To say the truth I do not like the novel impact in the setting much but that comes from WotC editorial line but one thing is a writer to make a character multiclass and another is killing pantheons.

Rutee

2008-01-26, 05:13 PM

And yet, I couldn't care less about that kind of nitty gritty (EG, Characters multiclassing). IMO, any true hero /should/ have a diverse smattering of abilitieis on top of their specialty.

My argument has been that metaplots pull the agency of awesome out of the PCs' hands.

Talya

2008-01-26, 05:45 PM

No, the DM does that.

(If she's doing her job and not just letting the players run amok.)

Rutee

2008-01-26, 05:49 PM

It's the DM's /job/ to keep awesome out of player hands? You must enjoy leading a boring, mundane existence.

Edit: notwithstanding, to follow the metaplot by its letter, yes it is in fact not the ST doing it. It was already done by someone else, the ST is merely agreeing with it.

Talya

2008-01-26, 06:39 PM

It's the DM's /job/ to keep awesome out of player hands?

Uh, yes? We aren't in the business of letting the players munchkin themselves out and becoming masters of the universe or anything. There's no fun in that for anybody.

You must enjoy leading a boring, mundane existence.

Just because my PCs aren't ubergods that rule the world? Hardly.

Edit: notwithstanding, to follow the metaplot by its letter, yes it is in fact not the ST doing it. It was already done by someone else, the ST is merely agreeing with it.

"ST?" Qu'est-ce que c'est?

Forgotten Realms is a "Living" setting. There are dozens of concurrent metaplots. The world, being alive, changes with or without the PC's involvement. It's not static. Don't expect the world to wait for you for something momentous to happen.

Rutee

2008-01-26, 06:52 PM

Uh, yes? We aren't in the business of letting the players munchkin themselves out and becoming masters of the universe or anything. There's no fun in that for anybody.

Combat Power != Narrative agency in doing cool things. Second, I'm pretty sure the munchkin has fun, and if everyone at the table has fun with then so be it. Not a game I'd play in, but you can't say that it's not fun for anybody. Incidentally, I'm pretty sure DnD has its roots in that.

Just because my PCs aren't ubergods that rule the world? Hardly.
No, because you're responding to me in ways that portray it as such. You seem to think that I'm thinking that when I say awesomeness, I mean pure combat power or some such. no, I don't. I couldn't care less about the stats on the sheet per se, but rather, the ability of characters to do spiffy things, and whether the stats grant them that.

Frankly, DnD doesn't, or at least, doesn't allow it without some jobbing or reliance on outside buffs. Hence why as a whole, I'm not a fan. But jobbing it to let people be cooler's not /that/ hard. Just irritating and I don't have the rather lengthy list of house rules I end up praying see use/are used on me.

As an aside, given the sheer number of times I have repeated that I'm not concerned with PCs being the center of the setting (Just the narrative, which is utterly rational no matter how you slice it), one would think you would stop insinuating the opposite. Or at least, acknowledge that I'm not referring to it, rather then continuing to beat on your strawman.

Also, on the above note, I have never, ever once supported PCs being uncontested masters of the universe. That's a /retarded/ aim to me. While there /are/ stories to be had that involve you being the equivalent of an Abrahamic God, there aren't many of them, and I doubt I ever really want to tell one. So, another straw man that I imagine would appreciate it if you would stop setting it on fire.

"ST?" Qu'est-ce que c'est?

Forgotten Realms is a "Living" setting. There are dozens of concurrent metaplots. The world, being alive, changes with or without the PC's involvement. It's not static. Don't expect the world to wait for you for something momentous to happen.
Storyteller. I think I'll just use GM though. I never liked "Dungeon Master" as a term. Anyway, I'm well aware that any realistic world is going ot have changes without the PCs' involvement. I'm going to assume, since you're not asserting ot the contrary, that you recognize that this doesn't require a meta-plot. The question is, why should I care? If it's not going to be of narrative importance (For any PC), set tone for the world, or isn't a nod to the PCs' actions, why do I care whether Harry Met Sally, or whether Thay has gone and started smacking Halruaa around, or whatnot?

Talya

2008-01-26, 10:32 PM

Some campaigns rely on the side effects of those events. I'm playing in one that very much revolves around the events of the War of the Spider Queen and Lady Penitent series of novels, despite that we haven't encountered many of the primary characters in it very often. (Hallistra Melarn, Cursed Champion of Lolth, has been a recurring antagonist since we started furthering the cause of the Eilistraeen refugees we rescued.)

We have encountered, in passing, 4 of the 6 surviving "Seven Sisters." We've encountered Khelben Arunsun. We've heard the voice of the old mage of shadowdale (Greenwood's Avatar), cursing some action we took without being introduced to him. We just encountered Gromph Baenre enroute to stealing an artifact from his sister Quenthel. Never have we felt like "errand boys" for them. But their presence added to the campaign, it didn't detract from it.

Indeed, if we've ever felt like errand boys, it's due to the NPCs our DM made up...two of them, both evil, both occasional benefactors, occasional antagonists. And we're still the centre of the story.

EvilElitest

2008-01-26, 10:39 PM

Rutee, it seems to me that you have a specific way of playing D&D. however, that is why you don't play FR but exalted instead. Thats fine. However, you don't seem to get why other people enjoy FR, and why they are upset it is getting destroyed. Wouldn't you be upset if Exalted was fundamentally changed in a way that ruined some of the core elements of the game?
from
EE

Fhaolan

2008-01-30, 02:57 AM

I’m not sure if this is right, because this thread was far enough away from the front page it might count as thread necromancy. If so, I apologize. However, I wanted to say something and this seems to be the best place to do it.

I do think Forgotten Realms needs a boot to the rear, but maybe not as much of one as rumor has it WotC has planned. I agree with points on both sides of the ‘For Reboot’ vs ‘No Reboot’ discussion.

FR has a lot of scope for further exploration in the new edition of D&D, but there is also lot of stuff published for previous editions (specifically 2nd edition) that is swamping the setting. New players can't get the stuff except through eBay and any crunch in them won't match the new system, but old-timers have a resistance to buying new books that are just old books with the crunch switched out. And as far as I can tell, pure fluff source books don't sell well for D&D so you can't just slice all the crunch out for republishing.

But due to the number of supplements and novels and whatnot, there's a big investment that's already been made by a lot of people. Both in the case of old-timers, and in TSR/WotC's own library of works. New players don't have as much of an investment, but there is weight of history there that becomes fairly obvious fairly fast. They may not have access to all of it, but its presence is felt in every supplement and novel they *do* get a hold of. And this weight of history lends a lot of verisimilitude to the setting.

There is also the weight of specifics. Meaning that as the setting gets more and more detailed, it becomes harder to find the gaps that your personal game can exist in. Because that’s where most games are set, in the bits in between. And it increases the chance that events that occur in the setting sources might be invalidated by events that occurred in your game. You can always ignore those sources, but then you start playing the game of needing to keep track of which sources are 'cannon' in your game, and which are 'apocryphal'. And when a game ends, and you start up with new characters, you have to make the decision of whether you start up with all the official sources, or with the history that occurred in your previous games.

However, a true reboot means that the previously published supplements and novels are considerably less useful as setting sources unless you specifically set your games in a past timeframe, and ignore future publications about the setting. There's nothing wrong with doing this, of course, but it's irritating that it's necessary when it seems like there are other options.

Novels, one of the major ways of getting fluff without crunch (and therefore can be edition-neutral), work under different rules. Literally. There are cases of setting novels that the game designers then had to desperately generate and retro-fit crunch in order to match the novels (I'm thinking the Saurials for FR, but I'm sure there are other cases). The more flexible the edition, the least amount of refit is necessary to get a novel to work in the rules. For example: the opening up of race/class combos from 2nd edition to 3rd edition didn't really affect the novels. First off, a good novel is never going to explicitly mention specific rules. Secondly, if an old novel doesn't mention something that the new rules allow for, it simply means that the characters involved don't know that technique, or they have some cultural bias against it.

Oh, and just to add to the mess, there’s something going on that is confusing me, and I’m not sure if it’s deliberate or not. There’s a lot of talk about the reboot of Forgotten Realms, and there’s a lot of talk about 4th edition fluff that’s going to be appearing the core rulebooks (PHB, DMG, etc.) And I’m getting confused as to which is which. I was originally under the impression that the ‘points of light’ pseudo-setting that was going to be in the PHB, et al. was not the same thing as the Forgotten Realms reboot. All the 4th edition FR stuff on this forum seems to be mixing it all up together and I’m having difficulty separating the two. I’m *hoping* that this is accidental on our parts, and that WotC is separating the two.

Personally, I believe that the FR setting needs a boot to the rear. Move the timeline ahead a short distance to get to a fresh point, but not so far that all the novels become irrelevant/ancient history. The novels need to move on. I don’t need yet another Dreary Drow/Elmarty Stu/Yet one more day in the life of the Organ Grinders… There’s a whole world out there, start exploring.

I’m not sure what to do with the actual setting supplements and all that old material that isn't really available anymore. You could always do the old ‘Trail Map’ route with pamphlet-style supplements that cover small areas in middling detail, with compilations available later as Encyclopedia/Atlas volumes, but I don’t know if that will sell that well.

What I *don’t* want is yet another Time of Troubles. It’s old, and boring, and I’ve seen it too many times in too many different places.

If you insist on another Time of Troubles, do something new. For example, don’t explain it. Don’t show it. Don’t going into excruciating detail over every little moment during its occurrence. Simply call it the ‘Cataclysm’, and make it a mystery. Nobody really remembers what happened. Things changed, but people still get confused about what changed. Create a new line of novels/modules/supplements that will slowly explore and reveal what occurred. And I mean slowly, not just a trilogy published over three months. Make it one book every year, just like real fantasy novels. Three connected trilogies, and only at the end is the main picture revealed, and even then there are holes and strange things that don’t quite add up. Make a point of those things, because that’s where we’ll play our games.

In the bits in between.

As always, don't mind me. I'm rambling. :smallsmile:

Ashandrea

2008-02-01, 05:20 AM

Seriously, what are they thinking??

No, scratch that, I know exactly what WotC is probably thinking: There's not much left to publish under 3.5, thematically (all the classes and concepts and whatnot have been done to death in supplements like the Complete XX series, sometimes twice: Complete Arcane and Complete Mage, anyone? Complete Warrior and Tome of Nine Swords?). Forgotten Realms and Eberron have been milked dry of supplements. The power creep has reached astronomic levels. So let's "reboot" the whole thing with 4E, and republished everything again... Core Books, class books... Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, FR Player's Guide, Races of Faerun, Magic of Faerun.... dito for Eberron setting. That way you start "fresh" and can slowly reintroduce the power creep. :smallmad:

The problem with the d20 D&D rules is that they're too strongly interwoven with their settings. The rules system is not "neutral", it's sort of a metagaming system. Change it, and it's like changing the rules of physics in our universe. Looking back, the change from 2nd edition to 3E was still relatively mild... wizards still needed spellbooks, they might have a few more spells available, and some spells worked totally differently, infravision was changed to darkvision, but it was still recognisable. Now 4E comes along and from what I've gleaned from the "Wizards Presents", races and classes and the world will be radically different, especially in the fluff details, where the players feel it the most.

So why the hell are they not simply invented in totally new setting for 4E? If they are going to "retire" World of Greyhawk, why not retire Forgotten Realms, too? Eberron might still be "young" enough as a setting that it can be rewritten for 4e. But this talk of "rebooting" and "cataclysm" to "adapt" an old setting to the fancy new game, shall I tell you what it reminds me of? Way back, in the 1990s, TSR tried the same thing with the Dragonlance setting, to "revitalize" the world, and it pissed off a lot of fans. Before 3E came along, there had been two systems: AD&D 2nd Edition and D&D Players' Options. I really liked Players Options, btw; it didn't try to "rewrite" an existing gameworld. It was merely a more freestyle system of character creation withno rigid classes or races, a point-buy system faintly reminiscent of GURPS or HERO system (I suspect that some of the ideas from PO made it into 3E in the form of PrCs and racial/class substitution levels). But I guess lots of"hardcore" AD&D players who had never played anything but D&D didn't like PO. Anyway, Dragonlance had been in hiatus for some years because TSR had not supported the world... no new maps, no background material. Then, one day, they announced a "reboot" of Dragonlance under the SAGA system, called "Dragonlance Fifth Age". They hired new authors to write about a new world-changing cataclysm called the "Chaos War", which brought the 4th Age to an end and literally smashed whole continents on Krynn, banished the gods of Krynn from the world again, even banished Krynn's trademark three moons and replaced it with one pale white moon. Along with the moons, the old Orders of Wizardry fell... no more wizards, no Towers of Sorcery, no more clerics, and old 4th age magic items were now only useful to harvest mysterical energy from. Thus was the 5th Age born, called the Age of Mortal, a misnomer if I ever saw one, because shortly after, the 5th Age novels and game supplements introduced the new metaplot enemy: the Dragon Overlords; huge gigantic freakishly large and powerful dragons, who ate normale D&D dragons for breakfast (literally) and laid ruin to vast stretches of the world, enslaving and generally being unbeatable opponents of near godlike power while the power levels of player races had been reduced to a post-war state. :smallconfused:

And that was because the 5th Age world had to be "adapted" to SAGA, and SAGA system was completely unlike AD&D 2nd Ed. Wizardly magic was replaced with "sorcery", clerical magic with "mysticism", very reminiscent of the way magic works in Ars Magica RPG; or in D&D terms, imagine a mixture of channeling and psionics instead of "spells". Now, don't get me wrong, I still think that the SAGA system implemented some great ideas. As far as the rules went, it was a solid working system. It had an equivalent of Action Points. I should have loved to use the new magic system, because I dislike the Vancian memorization system. (Just as I technically like some of the changes WotC made in 4E, esp to the wizard class...) And last but not least, suddenly there was a plethora of new supplements for DL!

BUT. I would have loved to play SAGA if they had implemented it in a completely new world setting! But instead the raped the world I knew and loved and made it unrecognizable. (It didn't help that some years later, Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman came back to the writing staff and partically "rewrote" the changes, bringing back the gods of Krynn etc.; then when D&D 3E was published, the d20 Dragonlance books more or less ignored the whole early post-Chaos War stuff and the world was reset to resemble what it had been under AD&D 2nd ed. (Only now with druids and bards and monks which like orcs had never before existed in Dragonlance. Oh well. At least there was a logical place for bards and druids, because gods of music and nature had been part of the setting from the beginning.)

I have nothing against advancing a metaplot. Worlds that never change become static. But if the sole reason for a world-shaking change is the introduction of new rules that rewrite the classes and races, then I get angry. I know GM who ignore the Time of Troubles in FR to this day.

I might love D&D 4E if it had been introduced as a completely new fantasy system, if it didn't try to change existing game worlds. Heck, if I had the chance to try out 4E unbiased, I might even come to the conclusion that 4E is superior to 3.5 system. (Although I find the animé/WOW/Hongkong movie feel of 4E a bit annoying.) But a "reboot"? WTF? Luckily I'm not emotionally invested in FR. But no more Planescape...? :smallannoyed:

Truly it seems to me
The largest problem with "resetting", "rebooting" "retooling" or "remaking"
any of the old worlds is just plain foolishness.
Why?
i have To agree with other posters the obvious reason is money. #.5 managed to generate more broken messed up characters then I care to mention. It became easy to over power a party and took away the creativity of playing the older rules.
I began play on 2nd ed. ad&d. When I watched 3.0 come out i saw a lot of bad changes for the system under way. More then half of core was written as though it had been put oput in less then a year as though one day
wotc woke up and said
wow this really is ours lets make it do something. can we poke it with a stick?

The d20 system is easy and more recognizable then thaco ever was. and although i liked wizards far better in 2nd 3.0 mad it easier to play a caster class.
Retooling the system means cleaning out the garbage they put there
but I believe its only a matter of time before they again reset the cosmo's and bring back the old world system, when enough of the noobs have bought the books and the old gamers are tired of playing with them.

Retiring greyhawk is a bad move and will be revoked.(most of the box sets that are being retooled are from grey hawk)
It means that with the destruction of one of the oldest game worlds
we as gamers will be reduced to even fewer resources that we can look to.
Greyhawk and FR and DR are all gameplay ideas. Getting rid of one causes the narrowing of the fields. It reduces the mental visibility for the next generation of gamers who have little to begin with due to all the video games coming out.

Wotc
Is suffering from second hand stupidity. They see all the console companies retoling old games and feel that they have to as well to maintain profit.

As it is I watched 3.0 flop. It was a relitvly short period of time before 3.5 was released. I am expecting the same with 4.o

Rutee

2008-02-01, 05:34 AM

Too long and poorly formatted, didn't read most of it. This however..

As it is I watched 3.0 flop. It was a relitvly short period of time before 3.5 was released. I am expecting the same with 4.o
2.0 -> 2.0 Revised: 7 years
3.0 -> 3.5: 5 years.

2.0 -> 3.0: 11 years
3.0 -> 4.0: 10 years.

2.0 Revised -> 3.0: 4 years
3.5 -> 4.0: 5 years

I'm using the estimated release date in June, for 4.0. No guarantees it releases then. Just trying to clear up this incorrect and exaggerated misconception that WotC and TSR just recently started saying "BOY HOWDY! Money sure is awesome!" They've been doing it the whole time, and the release times between 2nd ed, 3rd ed, and 4th ed (Assuming June 2k8 for 4th ed), are roughly the same.

CASTLEMIKE

2008-02-01, 11:03 AM

Prophaniti:

Deities are out of the question for Wish to effect, all their followers, on the other hand, can be easily destroyed - and a deity with no followers ceases to exist.

Agree with the first part, disagree regarding easily destroying all the followers 100% (Should be pretty hard to find them all and it should be pretty hard to put the theory to the test) and disagree with the last as it isn't clearly stated that happens for all gods in the various rules.

Dieties and Demigods has quite a few rules and some powers require no believers or followers to exist. IMO most Demigod's who are sustained by follower's belief and worship will have their divine portfolio sensing would kick in before all his or her followers were killed. Many demipowers have other divine power friends and allies with divine sensing. The demipower or an allied power only needs to shield or hide one single worshipper power from the PC's divinations for this strategy to be ineffective or create new ones as others are killed.

Sounds like a lot of Aleaxes (the demipower or power and his friends and allies) from BoED should be coming by visiting in short oder until the PC dies or gets the message.

Matthew

2008-02-01, 12:57 PM

2.0 -> 3.0: 11 years
3.0 -> 4.0: 10 years.

Hmmn. Whilst the thrust of what you're saying is agreeable, it's not really 10 years between the release of 3e and 4e, it's more like eight or nine. The first printing of the 3e PHB was August 2000. The first printing of the 4e PHB looks to be July 2008. Anyway you cut it, that's not ten years.

The 2e PHB was published in March 1989, so slightly longer than eleven years imbetween publications. The 1e PHB was first published in June 1978, which also means slightly more than eleven years (though the DMG did not appear until 1979 and the MM had appeared in 1977)

Rutee

2008-02-01, 02:30 PM

Hmmn. Whilst the thrust of what you're saying is agreeable, it's not really 10 years between the release of 3e and 4e, it's more like eight or nine. The first printing of the 3e PHB was August 2000. The first printing of the 4e PHB looks to be July 2008. Anyway you cut it, that's not ten years.

The 2e PHB was published in March 1989, so slightly longer than eleven years imbetween publications. The 1e PHB was first published in June 1978, which also means slightly more than eleven years (though the DMG did not appear until 1979 and the MM had appeared in 1977)

Hm, it seems that I was crazy or tired when reading Wikipedia, which does agree with you. It seems that 3.0 -> 3.5 is abnormally short, but given the gap between 3.5 and 4.0, I'm not sure I find it too worrisome.

Agent101g

2008-05-30, 06:50 PM

I just today heard about the 4E and all the intense changes to the Forgotten Realms, and after reading so much intellectual debate I wanted to put in my opinion in what will probably seem to many as an over-analyzed fashion via a rather lengthy post.

I have never played tabletop D&D; I've wanted to, but I have never fit into cliques, and I usually stay to myself. Regardless, I've purchased countless D&D 3E and 3.5E books, simply because I find the material to be fascinating. I read through the Monster Manuals purely for pleasure, and my favorite point of interest has been the Forgotten Realms campaign setting.

I should state that, by far and away, my favorite game of all time is Baldur's Gate 2 (and it's expansion, Throne of Bhaal). So much content was programmed into this game; there were over a dozen playable characters in a six-member party system, all of which had distinct personalities. Upon establishing a party, you might find that two of your companions build considerable personal enmity between each other, get along and conspire, or possibly develop romances. The player's interaction with each would be heavily weighed in the results with regard to each character and his or her epilogue stories at the end of the game. Additionally, the player could form romances and friendships with several in-game characters.

The result was a game full of an incredibly amount of programmed dialog (with several branching possible answers and responses which would result in further branching). During any given playthrough, the player is unlikely to see more than 20% of the game's programmed dialogue. As a result, this single-player environment was given a life of its own, mimicking effectively a real, dynamic fantasy environment. Never before had a game of this scope been created, and never again will it be. Why? Simply put, it is wasted money. During the time that Bioware spent putting so much detail into the game COULD have been spent producing three streamlined, colorful-box art boasting games which would sell for just as much and to a wider audience.

I spent a lot of time in high school being socially shunned, and I absolutely loved being able to retreat into the environment of Baldur's Gate 2. Nowadays, everyone talks about MMORPG's, but MMO's are a MOCKERY of true roleplaying. You go on WoW, and all you're gonna get is a bunch of twelve year olds shouting LEROY JENKINS! , as the raid party runs through its routines while discussing football statistics or their favorite type of Mcdonalds hamburgers. THIS IS NOT ROLEPLAYING. This is a sick, imagination-free mockery of what role playing is. WoW is a bunch of kids running around with character names like "DukeNookUm" "UberMightCheeze" and the like.

I was born in '84, and I grew up with video games. Once, they were quality products for a small group of consumers. Now, as more and more players (including a wider age range) purchase these games, the almighty corporate giants are recognizing video games as not simply a hobby, but a full-blown medium RIPE for capitalist invasion. As a result, everytime I load up Fight Night Round 3 (Which I paid SIXTY DOLLARS for) I have to listen to advertisements for cars and watch sickened as The King from the Burger King commercials prances about.

Anywho, what I am getting at has to do with the nature of capitalism. As much as I hate it, it is a necessary evil, as it harnesses greed (which is PARAMOUNT in this world over all other personality elements) in order to provide prosperity. However, all capitalist venues amount to the same pattern...

1. a new market is discovered. 2. businesses spring up to satisfy said market, offering exactly what their consumers demand for fair prices and continued integrity, as such behavior is necessary for future growth - and 3. market becomes saturated, consumer base is large, business is a corporation, now a huge unopposed success, the company no longer says, 'how can we succeed?' rather, they say 'okay, we've succeeded. Now, how can we exploit our past successes in order to make even more money in the future?'

And number 3. is the problem. It happens with so many things... retailers, video games, tabletop gaming, you name it. WotC (a corporation comprised of dozens of consumed enterprises all mashed up into one big freaking MONEYFARM) has, and I guarantee it, sat down and had a board meeting in which some hot shot exec has said, "Look gentlemen... this is an old and antiquated business. We are losing players to new-age RPG platforms such as WoW. How can we stay alive and compete? Simple. We gun for the exact demographic which has proved fruitful and which we feel has eluded us... that's right, the 12 year old MIKE JONES LEEEEROY JENKINS BANG BANG BLOW STUFF UP demographic! These children, these inhabitants of a cultural wasteland rife with stagnation, are now the demographic aimed at by corporations such as WotC.

Simply put, they are betraying long-time fans, using the successful status which they garnered through grade A service to carry momentum forward into a sleeker, streamlined product which will appeal to fans not of high intellect and creativity ('cuz let's face it, these people are a minority and their money does not talk as loudly as LEEEROY JENKINS does) but of a generic, "cool" crowd of lollipop-suckin' hipsters who play what's cool, do what's hip, and ignore their brains' more intricate functions in favor of bright colors, cool names, and easy-to-use mechanics.

As far as I am concerned, FR is dead. It's become their new poster-boy for the next generation of their marketing, and any positive feedback or "receptive discussions" you have received is simply placation. WotC feels that the table-top RPG industry is in need of a massive COOLOMGWOOT injection to appeal to younger, simpler little monkeys (to paraphrase a certain Thayvian). This is stagnation... this always comes after the peak of a business's success has passed and all that is left is to improve the bottom line by any means possible. You think they care that they are betraying their long-term fans? Money talks, and nothing else will they listen to.

I simply don't understand it. Why aim a distinctive product at a demographic which is already owned by simplistic bullcrap like WoW? Is there no bastion for the intellectual who actually wishes to Role Play? No, there is not.

EA acquired Bioware, 4th Ed. sodomizes FR, and I once again jump ship in search of greener pastures, but there are none. Windows Vista, EA's ads in gaming, WotC's rehash of similar material in forty dollar books, and now their insane brashness of releasing more than 3 core rulebooks (classes such as barbarians and druids will be released in future core rulebooks)... cuz yeah, it's too cheap to just require three, lets making every F#%#@%ing book a core rule book.

Well that's my rant. I have become ashamed of my country and what it has become, and this ugliness continues to seep into every single thing I enjoy, and this FR universe was one of my new fascinations, branched off from playing earlier computer games, bears the newest headstone in a graveyard stretching as far as my mind's eye can see.