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Lupy
2008-01-19, 08:23 PM
I was reading along, and while I love fantasy over all other genres, I gamemaster a Star Wars RPG group (Saga Edition!). I'm a new GM, and was looking for tips, but I do know most of the rules, and I'm willing to answer questions also!

My group includes:
A 4th level Soldier,
A 4th level Scout,
and GM controlled 5th level Noble3/Soldier2, and GM controlled 4th level Ace Pilot

I was wondering if anyone here could help me out with planning a space-combat encounter?

Lupy
2008-01-19, 08:30 PM
Wow, I guess Sci-fi in a fantasy forum is like Dnd in a middle school...:smallfrown:

RTGoodman
2008-01-19, 08:33 PM
Actually, there are quite a few people here who like SW and the SW RPG(s).

First off, which SW RPG are you playing? The old version, or the new Saga Edition? That will probably change how you run such an encounter.

I myself haven't played a Star Wars game yet (though we're starting the "Dawn of Defiance" living campaign soon), so I'm not entirely sure, but I think WotC just published a new sourcebook for Saga Edition that's called "Starships of the Galaxy" or something like that. I'm willing to be that it might have something for you about running a space-combat encounter, if the core book doesn't have anything.

EDIT: Also, don't be so hasty. It might take more than the 7 minutes you gave between your own posts for someone to reply to a thread.

Lupy
2008-01-19, 08:40 PM
Thanks, I have the new Saga Edition, and the Starships of the Galaxy, but the Starships of the Galaxy is annoyingly specific to primarily space themed campaigns, and my campaign is not.:smallannoyed: By the way, I tried Dawn of the Defiance, and found the players enjoy it more when the GM alters it to suit what they're into. And about the impatience, I come from a forum with bajillions of people and 2 minute response times, so I was dying 7 minutes in:smallredface:

Talya
2008-01-19, 08:51 PM
SW is good if you don't use Jedi.

If you do, make sure you set it 4000 years before the battle of Yavin, give or take a century. That's the only setting that really works for Jedi characters.

(Note: the more recent post RotJ books don't exist. Jacen Solo did not kill Mara Jade and turn to the dark side. there are no Vuzhon Vong, and Chewbacca is still alive. That is all. Thank you.)

Lupy
2008-01-19, 08:53 PM
I'll trade a great "Shoot the Storm Troopers, save the hostage, and escape the Star Destroyer" encounter for a "Steal the X-wings for the Rebels" I can give and use Saga and Revised Editions, or is this a forum where nice 'know more than me, the evernoob' give away their much needed knowledge? :vaarsuvius:

Lupy
2008-01-19, 08:55 PM
So true Talya, Jedi ruin a campaign, and I also hate whatever moron came up with the Yuzaan Vong, everyone knows the New Republic got along just fine. :wink:

Jack Zander
2008-01-20, 12:58 AM
Agreed, Yuzaan Vong are teh sucks.

Jedi aren't overpowered in Saga Edition though. They do absolutely nothing to break the game. That might also have something to do with the fact that anyone can spend 2 feats and use force powers. Jedi just get one of those feats for free.

Ossian
2008-01-20, 05:26 AM
Here's another SW lover. I played the RCR though (revised core rulebook, much like 3.5 D&D in space with a few changes here and there). I do own a copy of saga, but I've lost my group (Another Dimension....) and didn't feel like digging into another ruleset, balanced as it may be.

Still, if a SW plot is what you need, I'd be happy to help.

So, what about a classic: ship hijack and space pirate? I though that an endless source of SW plots could be the show Futurama, by Matt Groening. After all they are a space delivery service, they have a ship, a crew, and they "do stuff..."

Tough_Tonka
2008-01-20, 12:06 PM
If I knew the rules well enough about star ship encounters I'd gladly help you, but I'm still learning them myself. If you're trying to come up with some ideas for a starship encounter here's a few I was pondering.

Battle at the Black Hole:

This is the planned final fight for a Star Wars campaign I'm working on. The antagonist are a group of powerful dark-side cultist (maybe Sith, but probably not) and they are preforming a ritual to awaken a dark-side entity that has been entombed in a black hole.

The heroes have to disrupt the ceremony and stop the cultist before they unleash an unspeakable horror upon the galaxy. I'm not exactly sure what this horror is yet but needless to say I will be big (colossal+ sized), weird (either gross with lots of tentacles and ooze or ethereal and composed of warped space or pure energy), and malevolent (lots of spooky dark-side effects).

Mechanic-wise I think I'll give the black hole the following effects.
1. The black hole will be fairly with the event horizon (the point where ships get sucked into the black hole) either a 3 by 3 square area to a 5 by 5 square area.
2. Hyper-Space travel even around the black hole will be extremely dangerous and definately damage the ship.
3. The gravity will cause problems for weapons probably giving star ships a -2 or -10 penalty on attacks depending on how close they are to the even horizon.
4. The black hole will cause a sort of maelstrom through space time. In other words space is going to rotate around the black hole clockwise or counter clockwise. If a ship goes against the "current" it will have to avoid debree being suck in and will automatically take so much damage from going against the flow of space.
5. Lastly to avoid getting sucked into the black hole ships would have to maintain a certain speed. For example unless they move at least 2+ squares every round they will get pulled one square towards the event horizon.

There might be mechanics for the entity as the ritual continues. Maybe after so long tentacles from the thing start to reach out and attack the ships randomly. Or the entity could cause morale problems for the crew through dark-side powers or force every force point to be spent in fear or anger causing them to use the dark-side. On the other hand the entity might be able to be thwarted by spending force points to further seal the creature.

Mando Knight
2008-01-20, 12:47 PM
There are a few things that I would like to say here...

1. It's spelled Yuuzhan Vong, not Yuzaan.

2. There are some things in NJO that I like... like Luke finally getting around to having an heir...

3. OP: You can't legally have a 4th level Ace Pilot, it's a 7th level PrC. You could have a level 7 nonhero/level 1 Ace Pilot, but I think that you'll get more of a low-level Ace Pilot by having a Soldier, Scout, or Scoundrel take Vehicular Combat, Skill Focus (Pilot), and (if you have Starships of the Galaxy) Starship Tactics.

4. If you want to run a space combat encounter, definitely get Starships of the Galaxy. (Get it on Amazon--it cost me about $25 there, but at my local bookstore it cost closer to $40...) The rules for custom starships are in it, it provides feat and talent details for use on board a starship, and it gives a much larger number of starships for you to use. Just be careful sending out TIE Defenders, though...:smallwink:

Space combat should have a goal (obviously) known to your PCs. Destroy some Imperial superweapon, get away from the planet so you can jump to hyperspace, destroy the Interdictor Cruiser so that you can jump to hyperspace, ambush and capture/destroy an Imperial convoy (a favorite of pirates!), slip past an Imperial blockade so you can infiltrate a planet...

Once you know the goal, it's easier to put in the ships you'll need. Be careful about slinging in Imperial Star Destroyers left and right, those things are CL 20... more if you use a bigger ship! (Vader's Super Star Destroyer is CL 40, and the Emperor has one up his sleeve that's CL 50!) If you have a CR90 Corellian Corvette, have the ship get better sublight engines (seriously, the thing's called a Blockade Runner, but it can't outrun the ships in the blockade!), which won't be hard to do emplacement-wise, as a Corellian Corvette has 5 emplacement points (more on that in SotG)

Unless your characters become Master Skywalker, they're unlikely to be torn out of hyperspace alone. Rather, have a small fleet of ships come out with you (the heroes' ship, a Nebulon-B frigate or two, maybe a few X- or Y-Wings) that will aid you in fighting the Empire. Maybe your characters just want to leave the other Rebels where they are and flee the Interdictor themselves...

EDIT: If you don't like the Vong, then too bad. They're in the Saga Edition core rulebook, complete with Amphistaffs and Vonduun Crab armor (which is the best armor in the core rulebook...). Coralskips are in Starships of the Galaxy, but that's the only Vong ship I saw in there... and they're deadlier enemies than a TIE Defender, since their SR doesn't go down unless autofire is used. They even appear in a pre-Clone Wars novel, Rogue Planet. They're also possibly referred to in both KotORs.

Beleriphon
2008-01-20, 12:56 PM
SW is good if you don't use Jedi.

Ne'er a less true comment has been made. Jedi are exceptionally skilled characters, but they can't do everything, nor does a character need levels in Jedi to be a Jedi. Keep in mind that they get a good portion of the abilities from being a primary melee class, all of their combat related abilities revolve around swinging a lightsaber, so in situations where you can't do this (such as against a swarms of mooks) then they lose some of their punch.

Mando Knight
2008-01-20, 01:02 PM
They've still got the Force and Whirlwind Attack to use against mook armies, and some of the Jedi talents are pretty nice for all-out brawls.

Starbuck_II
2008-01-20, 01:13 PM
They've still got the Force and Whirlwind Attack to use against mook armies, and some of the Jedi talents are pretty nice for all-out brawls.

Anyone can use the force (except Droids).

Sure they get the starting feat that lets them use Force checks, but a Jedi who can't sense the Force would be weird.

Any human non-jedi can get force powers at 1st. Use the Force and Force Training (that is ione that gives talents, right?).

I perfer
a. Stun: awesomely useful. Errated to Fort Defense because Will Defense was too strong. After all only 3 races have Iron Will ability: everyone else has average Will or bad.
b. Negate Energy: Saves my life if hit by a blaster
c. Surge: When you really need to get somewhere.

The others are good but I found these powers best.

Talya
2008-01-20, 02:07 PM
Agreed, Yuzaan Vong are teh sucks.

Jedi aren't overpowered in Saga Edition though. They do absolutely nothing to break the game. That might also have something to do with the fact that anyone can spend 2 feats and use force powers. Jedi just get one of those feats for free.

That's not the problem. Jedi are not overpowered, it's true (and I think they should be a little bit overpowered.) The problem is, Jedi are only cool when engaged in constant lightsaber duels and battles. Since the sith came up with their rule of two, that rather ruined the fun of playing a jedi in most settings, unless you use some alternate setting where there are a whole lot of darkside force users to battle.

TheThan
2008-01-20, 02:18 PM
SW is good if you don't use Jedi.

If you do, make sure you set it 4000 years before the battle of Yavin, give or take a century. That's the only setting that really works for Jedi characters.

(Note: the more recent post RotJ books don't exist. Jacen Solo did not kill Mara Jade and turn to the dark side. there are no Vuzhon Vong, and Chewbacca is still alive. That is all. Thank you.)

Ha! That cracked me up.

Its also very true.

holywhippet
2008-01-20, 03:47 PM
I played one session of Saga edition when not enough players turned up to my usually D&D campaign. For space battles, you first need to note that your players need to have taken a certain weapon proficiency in order to use the blaster turrets - none of our level 1 characters had (two Jedi and one scout) which ruled out the bit of ship to ship fighting our DM was thinking of (we were on a refugee ship fleeing a planet). So if your players don't have that proficiency, stick to boarding actions.

The second thing is I think one of the other players went and bought that book on ships. I haven't read it myself, but he was complaining that the system was horribly broken. For example, he said the fuel cost of getting a really big ship into hyperspace (or whatever they call it) was more than the cost of the ship.

Shraik
2008-01-20, 04:30 PM
Really If you want to run a SWRPG, go to eBay before any bookstore. This because, in the days of MC Hammer and Full House, There was WEG Star Wars RPG. West End Games Designed the first Star Wars RPG, and was for a decent ten years. Still holds the title for the best. But if you can't, you can't.

I suggest No Jedi, and alot of Homebrew Stuff. Do research to figure out how not to mess with continuity. I suggest wookieepedia, and SW GM's best friend. I use mostly Homebrew planets not to mess with stuff. Like having a republic/sepratists dog fight over tattoine(Cannot spell), we would have heard about it.

Effectively, make sure you know what your doing, and what your saying. What else...

PM if you ever need to know something about Star Wars, such as Racial Conflicts, Physics, Designs of weaponry, or stuff about the galaxy I am the man to ask, Playa

Mando Knight
2008-01-20, 06:19 PM
I think one of the other players went and bought that book on ships. I haven't read it myself, but he was complaining that the system was horribly broken. For example, he said the fuel cost of getting a really big ship into hyperspace (or whatever they call it) was more than the cost of the ship.

The system isn't quite broken... expensive for heroes flying capital ships, yes, but not really broken. The fuel cost of a single hyperspace jump for an Imperial Star Destroyer is less than the cost of a single TIE fighter. Anyone who privately owns a starship is going to have to have the finances to back it up, i.e. the Empire. You could steal fuel, credits, and such from Imperial supply lines, have stuff supplied by a benefactor in return for completing missions, etc. instead of having to purchase supplies from the local Seven Eleven...

The costs of upkeep for an X-Wing would be about 420 credits/week, which isn't all that bad (it includes 1 week of fuel and 1 week of food supplies). The Falcon isn't much worse, since the food is 70 credits/week, and fuel for ships Colossal or smaller is 50 credits/day or 350/week. A Blockade Runner (CR90 Corellian Corvette) has a cost/day of 500 credits for fuel and 480 credits for food for an average sized crew, or only 980 credits/day. It has stores for up to one year's worth of consumables, so it costs about 357700 credits/year. Solo charged Luke and Obi-Wan about 17000 for a single trip to Alderaan, so that doesn't turn out too bad...

BTW, the weapon proficiency needed for fighting well in a turret is Weapon Proficiency (Heavy Weapons). That feat covers all weapons like grenade launchers, E-Web blasters, starship weapons, etc. If you need an edge in space, though, the Vehicular Combat feat and the Spacehound talent both give you proficiency in starship weapons (but not all heavy weapons) as well as an added bonus.

I don't know anything about WEG's SW RPG, except that you'll have to homebrew anything from The Phantom Menace or later, since they lost the license in '98 or so... However, it may be still a good idea to get old sourcebooks and try to up-convert, as you can then introduce species, weapons, etc. that weren't in the core book or Starships of the Galaxy.

Hypothetical
2008-01-20, 07:27 PM
The costs of upkeep for an X-Wing would be about 420 credits/week, which isn't all that bad (it includes 1 week of fuel and 1 week of food supplies). The Falcon isn't much worse, since the food is 70 credits/week, and fuel for ships Colossal or smaller is 50 credits/day or 350/week. A Blockade Runner (CR90 Corellian Corvette) has a cost/day of 500 credits for fuel and 480 credits for food for an average sized crew, or only 980 credits/day. It has stores for up to one year's worth of consumables, so it costs about 357700 credits/year. Solo charged Luke and Obi-Wan about 17000 for a single trip to Alderaan, so that doesn't turn out too bad...



I have Starships of the Galaxy, and I have one issue with it.

Food is listed at a flat rate. Personally, I think food should be divided into 4 separate categories.
Cheap Food packs. 40 Creds a weeks on something the size of the Falcon. Think a diet of Ramen Noodles and Mac and Cheese.
Standard Food Packs. 70 Creds a week. Think MREs.
Above Standard. 100 Credits a week. Normal diet for most people. Nerf Chops and Baked Tuberlettes. That kind of thing.
Luxury food packs. 140-200 Creds/week. Gooberfish Tails in braised wine sauce.Baked Hoth for desert.


And to make those fuel costs anywhere near reasonable you really have to ignore Han's statement in ANH that the Falcon was the the "Fastest hunk of junk in the Galaxy" if it can only make .5 past light speed. At 1 and 1 half times light speed, it would take 3 years to get to the closest star to ours. Unless Alderaan is part of a Trinary system with Tatooine, Han would have severely lost money only charging 17,ooo.
The Transit time to Alderaan is never really discussed in the movies, but it can't be less than one day, with everything that happens on the Death Star during it's travels, and was probably more like a week. Even if Alderaan were a paltry 1 light year from Tatooine, that would make the Falcon's top speed between 50 and 350 times the speed of light.

OK, yes, I'm picking nits, but that's my job, it's what I do.

Sleet
2008-01-20, 07:41 PM
Aw. man. The Star Wars game I've been playing in for over 3 years now (we switched to Saga rules in November), set between RotJ and the Thrawn series, with a mix of Jedi and non-Jedi PCs, has been going great. One of the best RPG campaigns I've ever played in.

We must be doing it wrong. :smallwink:

Lupy
2008-01-20, 08:28 PM
Food is listed at a flat rate. Personally, I think food should be divided into 4 separate categories.
Cheap Food packs. 40 Creds a weeks on something the size of the Falcon. Think a diet of Ramen Noodles and Mac and Cheese.
Standard Food Packs. 70 Creds a week. Think MREs.
Above Standard. 100 Credits a week. Normal diet for most people. Nerf Chops and Baked Tuberlettes. That kind of thing.
Luxury food packs. 140-200 Creds/week. Gooberfish Tails in braised wine sauce.Baked Hoth for desert.

I Agree completely, and as GM, I have my own rules about that... if I can ever find them...

Lupy
2008-01-20, 08:34 PM
There are a few things that I would like to say here...

3. OP: You can't legally have a 4th level Ace Pilot, it's a 7th level PrC. You could have a level 7 nonhero/level 1 Ace Pilot, but I think that you'll get more of a low-level Ace Pilot by having a Soldier, Scout, or Scoundrel take Vehicular Combat, Skill Focus (Pilot), and (if you have Starships of the Galaxy) Starship Tactics.
4. If you want to run a space combat encounter, definitely get Starships of the Galaxy. (Get it on Amazon--it cost me about $25 there, but at my local bookstore it cost closer to $40...) The rules for custom starships are in it, it provides feat and talent details for use on board a starship, and it gives a much larger number of starships for you to use. Just be careful sending out TIE Defenders, though...:smallwink:

I know about the 4th level Ace Pilot, but I thought it was okay for GM character the players never know the details about:wink: As for Starships of the Galaxy, it is choppy and overly complicated, but I was looking for more star fighters for the picky scout, and it listed prices for large ships, so I could determine what Bail Organa could reasonably afford (in our campaign the two work for him).

Hurlbut
2008-01-20, 08:36 PM
And to make those fuel costs anywhere near reasonable you really have to ignore Han's statement in ANH that the Falcon was the the "Fastest hunk of junk in the Galaxy" if it can only make .5 past light speed. At 1 and 1 half times light speed, it would take 3 years to get to the closest star to ours. Unless Alderaan is part of a Trinary system with Tatooine, Han would have severely lost money only charging 17,ooo.
The Transit time to Alderaan is never really discussed in the movies, but it can't be less than one day, with everything that happens on the Death Star during it's travels, and was probably more like a week. Even if Alderaan were a paltry 1 light year from Tatooine, that would make the Falcon's top speed between 50 and 350 times the speed of light.

OK, yes, I'm picking nits, but that's my job, it's what I do.As many of us already know; when they refer to lightspeed they are not really refering to the actual speed of the light itself.:smallyuk:

Lupy
2008-01-20, 08:40 PM
Does anyone know if we can post game mechanics on here without ticking off WotC?

Mando Knight
2008-01-20, 08:42 PM
And to make those fuel costs anywhere near reasonable you really have to ignore Han's statement in ANH that the Falcon was the the "Fastest hunk of junk in the Galaxy" if it can only make .5 past light speed. At 1 and 1 half times light speed, it would take 3 years to get to the closest star to ours. Unless Alderaan is part of a Trinary system with Tatooine, Han would have severely lost money only charging 17,ooo.
The Transit time to Alderaan is never really discussed in the movies, but it can't be less than one day, with everything that happens on the Death Star during it's travels, and was probably more like a week. Even if Alderaan were a paltry 1 light year from Tatooine, that would make the Falcon's top speed between 50 and 350 times the speed of light.

OK, yes, I'm picking nits, but that's my job, it's what I do.

That's not nit-picky, that's misunderstanding how hyperdrives work. (Details which, of course, were developed after ANH was released...)

.5 past lightspeed is actually pretty darn fast in Star Wars. It means that compared to the standard Class 1 hyperdrive, the Falcon takes half the time to get anywhere. The class of hyperdrive is multiplied by the standard time to travel somewhere. The details in the RPG are woefully inadequate, and do not take into account the distances between systems. Basically, the ship can pass through an alternate dimension with radically different laws of physics. My guess is that hyperdrives cause a temporary breach between the two dimensions, creating a wormhole effect that allows the ship to travel almost instantaneously between planets, like the quantum slipstream drive that the Voyager tries to use in Star Trek.

EDIT: Come on, I take TEN MINUTES to make a somewhat informed post, and I get ninja'd!

Lupy, Bail Organa can afford anything you need him to afford. After all, he is the official benefactor in WotC's Dawn of Defiance campaign...

Lupy
2008-01-20, 09:08 PM
Bail got involved because for my first session I used some Dod stuff for ideas, the reason I'm limited I stupidly *smacks head* told the scout a number...45-100 mil credits, and that not all of those are put into the Rebel Alliance because the Empire would keep tabs on that large a fortune, so the transfer is in small amounts.

What is "ninja'd"?:smallconfused:

Lupy
2008-01-20, 09:34 PM
Does anyone know if vehicular combat is mandatory, or if the soldier can use it untrained somehow?:smallconfused:

Sundog
2008-01-20, 09:44 PM
For those of you who have said Jedi are overpowered, I should point out that they have fixed this in SAGA. Power levels are roughly the same for all classes.

We started Dawn of Defiance last month. We've got a Human Soldier, Trandoshan Soldier, Twi'lek Scoundrel and I'm playing a Human Noble. We all looked at Jedi, and decided it didn't do what we wanted.

Lupy
2008-01-20, 09:48 PM
From my point of view Jedi in Saga are over powered, because the lightsaber is overpowered.

Mando Knight
2008-01-20, 10:46 PM
Actually, the lightsaber was nerfed for Saga. It does less damage on average than a blaster pistol (9 vs. 10.5), and requires a weapon proficiency that only Jedi get for free. Everyone else has to spend one of their character feats (the ones at 1st level and every multiple of 3) to get it. The only reason why the lightsaber is still a viable weapon choice is because of the characters that use it. As a melee weapon, yes, a lightsaber is the strongest 1-handed melee weapon in the game, but when compared to even a blaster pistol (max damage 18, minimum damage 3, compared to max damage 16, minimum damage 2 for the lightsaber), it's weak. The power of the lightsaber comes from a Jedi's feats and his possible use of the Battlestrike Force Power.

Vehicular combat is a feat, not a skill. Pilot is the skill for Vehicular Combat. So no, you can't use Vehicular Combat untrained. However, you can do most Pilot checks untrained. Also, you need Vehicular Combat in order to get Starship Tactics or a level in Ace Pilot. If you have Vehicular Combat, also invest in Skill Focus (Pilot), as that will allow you to succeed at the Pilot check required for Vehicular Combat more often.

Lupy
2008-01-21, 09:05 PM
I'm glad for all the help, the encounter is tomorrow, and I think I'm ready for it.
:elan:

Talkkno
2008-01-21, 09:07 PM
Actually, the lightsaber was nerfed for Saga. It does less damage on average than a blaster pistol (9 vs. 10.5), and requires a weapon proficiency that only Jedi get for free. Everyone else has to spend one of their character feats (the ones at 1st level and every multiple of 3) to get it. The only reason why the lightsaber is still a viable weapon choice is because of the characters that use it. As a melee weapon, yes, a lightsaber is the strongest 1-handed melee weapon in the game, but when compared to even a blaster pistol (max damage 18, minimum damage 3, compared to max damage 16, minimum damage 2 for the lightsaber), it's weak. The power of the lightsaber comes from a Jedi's feats and his possible use of the Battlestrike Force Power.
.

You add your strength bonus...and 2x it if your wielding it two handed.

Starbuck_II
2008-01-21, 10:17 PM
You add your strength bonus...and 2x it if your wielding it two handed.

Same for all 2 handed weilded weapons.
Clubs, staffs, Force Pikes (better than a lightsaber in damage), etc.

Lightsaber is only cool because ignores most DR.

Saga is awesome because the Sling is better balanced now: same damage as stones (no ammo cost), but no move action wasted to build momentum.

Granted, it sucks in damage compared to a blaster, but who is going to take away a piece of cloth and stones when searching you.

Jedi are pretty strong with 3 Talents: Block, Deflect, DR
DR uses a Force point but gives DR for a minute. Granted, anyone with Use the Force feat can take Force talents like these, but since jedi start with feat they are basic users.
Block lets you parry melee attacks.
Deflect lets you parry ranged.

Talya
2008-01-21, 10:32 PM
Same for all 2 handed weilded weapons.
Clubs, staffs, Force Pikes (better than a lightsaber in damage), etc.



However, the point is, a lightsaber does not do less damage than a blaster pistol...or even a rifle.

2d8+6 (the minimum a jedi is likely to have to damage by level 8, probably even more) averages 15 damage. A blaster rifle is still 3d8, averaging 13.5. (That's not including level based damage increases.) And that's with a strength or dexterity of only 16. It's likely to be 18-20 by level 8 which boosts that damage to +8 or +10.

Mando Knight
2008-01-21, 11:16 PM
2d8+6 (the minimum a jedi is likely to have to damage by level 8, probably even more) averages 15 damage. A blaster rifle is still 3d8, averaging 13.5. (That's not including level based damage increases.) And that's with a strength or dexterity of only 16. It's likely to be 18-20 by level 8 which boosts that damage to +8 or +10.

Which is the same as a Force Pike, which, though 1 kg heavier (come on, that's nothing...), provides the same damage for the same size, is more common, is cheaper, uses a more common feat for proficiency, and can be used by Elite Troopers for Greater Weapon Specialization. The lightsaber isn't all that great except if you're a Jedi, but the original point I tried to refute is that the Jedi are great because of the lightsaber. It's actually neither. The Jedi are a good class in Saga because their weapon of choice has neat abilities, but those abilities only come into play when you have a Jedi using it.

At level 8, the player with the rifle probably also has Point Blank Shot, which increases both accuracy and damage for ranged weapons, and Deadeye can increase the average damage at Point Blank from 17.5 (with level bonuses, no Point Blank or Deadeye) to 23 (4d8 +1 for Point Blank, +4 for level). If a Jedi spends two ability points to level up STR from 16 to 18, then that's still 2d8 +8 for strength, +4 for level, or average of... 21. That's two points lower. Point Blank and Deadeye aren't obscure feats, either, especially for snipers. If the character's lucky enough to get his hands on a heavy rifle by level 8 (not too much of a stretch), then the damage for that with Deadeye becomes 4d10 +5 (level & Point Blank), or 27 average damage. Lightsabers are good for Jedi, not so much for other people. If the player has Far Shot and a scoped heavy rifle, then the bonus applies for distances that the Jedi can't cover in one round, even running.

Talya
2008-01-21, 11:19 PM
Which is the same as a Force Pike, which, though 1 kg heavier (come on, that's nothing...), provides the same damage for the same size, is more common, is cheaper, uses a more common feat for proficiency, and can be used by Elite Troopers for Greater Weapon Specialization. The lightsaber isn't all that great except if you're a Jedi, but the original point I tried to refute is that the Jedi are great because of the lightsaber. It's actually neither. The Jedi are a good class in Saga because their weapon of choice has neat abilities, but those abilities only come into play when you have a Jedi using it.

At level 8, the player with the rifle probably also has Point Blank Shot, which increases both accuracy and damage for ranged weapons, and Deadeye can increase the average damage at Point Blank from 17.5 (with level bonuses, no Point Blank or Deadeye) to 23 (4d8 +1 for Point Blank, +4 for level). If a Jedi spends two ability points to level up STR from 16 to 18, then that's still 2d8 +8 for strength, +4 for level, or average of... 21. That's two points lower. Point Blank and Deadeye aren't obscure feats, either, especially for snipers. If the character's lucky enough to get his hands on a heavy rifle by level 8 (not too much of a stretch), then the damage for that with Deadeye becomes 4d10 +5 (level & Point Blank), or 27 average damage. Lightsabers are good for Jedi, not so much for other people. If the player has Far Shot and a scoped heavy rifle, then the bonus applies for distances that the Jedi can't cover in one round, even running.

I don't disagree with you above, although the jedi will also take Rapid Strike (3d8), and can get greater weapon specialization as a jedi knight/master.

I agree, that the lightsaber truly shines in the hands of a jedi, and non-jedi are probably best to take something else. However, in the hands of a jedi, a lightsaber does comparable damage to most ranged weapons. Problem is they actually have to get up close to do it.

TheThan
2008-01-21, 11:54 PM
I really donít like the space combat rules for saga. I loved the revised edition rules for space combat. It felt and played like a minis game. In fact Iíve felt they should have just copied and pasted the rules from that book for the space ships for the SW minis line.

Lemur
2008-01-22, 01:49 AM
I don't disagree with you above, although the jedi will also take Rapid Strike (3d8), and can get greater weapon specialization as a jedi knight/master.

I agree, that the lightsaber truly shines in the hands of a jedi, and non-jedi are probably best to take something else. However, in the hands of a jedi, a lightsaber does comparable damage to most ranged weapons. Problem is they actually have to get up close to do it.

Note that I don't disagree with the point you're making, but Rapid Strike probably isn't the best feat for a jedi, unless he's holding his lightsaber in one hand all the time (and why should he do that?). The feat doesn't provide noticeably greater average damage than two handed power attacks with a lightsaber. The jedi is better off just taking power attack and using that for all it's worth.

Unless I'm missing an important passage somewhere, this also applies to double weapons- you get the 2:1 conversion from power attack and twice strength to damage with both ends of a double weapon, since they're held in two hands. So yet again there isn't a very good incentive to take Rapid Strike over the more versatile Power Attack, unless you're still hitting all the time with full power attack.

Now that I think about it, you might be able to pull that off by tumble-charging someone. If you're trained in acrobatics, and take Acrobatic Strike and Powerful Charge, and you start your turn in melee with someone, you can tumble a square back, then charge your opponent you can get a +9 to your attack (and half your heroic level to damage). A funny tactic, but a bit situational as well.

I'm still familiarizing myself with the system, so if anyone finds anything wrong with what I've posted by RAW, feel free to point it out.

Sundog
2008-01-22, 03:42 AM
Note that I don't disagree with the point you're making, but Rapid Strike probably isn't the best feat for a jedi, unless he's holding his lightsaber in one hand all the time (and why should he do that?). The feat doesn't provide noticeably greater average damage than two handed power attacks with a lightsaber. The jedi is better off just taking power attack and using that for all it's worth.

Unless I'm missing an important passage somewhere, this also applies to double weapons- you get the 2:1 conversion from power attack and twice strength to damage with both ends of a double weapon, since they're held in two hands. So yet again there isn't a very good incentive to take Rapid Strike over the more versatile Power Attack, unless you're still hitting all the time with full power attack.

Now that I think about it, you might be able to pull that off by tumble-charging someone. If you're trained in acrobatics, and take Acrobatic Strike and Powerful Charge, and you start your turn in melee with someone, you can tumble a square back, then charge your opponent you can get a +9 to your attack (and half your heroic level to damage). A funny tactic, but a bit situational as well.

I'm still familiarizing myself with the system, so if anyone finds anything wrong with what I've posted by RAW, feel free to point it out.

Just checked out the rules, and yeah, it works. You have to tumble back two squares, though, not just one, since you must charge a minimum of two squares.

Jack Zander
2008-01-22, 04:56 AM
Who says the lightsaber is the best melee weapon?

Have you seen a wookie soldier with a vibroax? Jedi have been made completely obsolete in the melee dept. Not even block (or all the other defensive abilities) can save them from that kind of wrath... *shudders*

Starbuck_II
2008-01-22, 08:41 AM
Who says the lightsaber is the best melee weapon?

Have you seen a wookie soldier with a vibroax? Jedi have been made completely obsolete in the melee dept. Not even block (or all the other defensive abilities) can save them from that kind of wrath... *shudders*

Block can save them if they make the check.Saved me from a Vibro ax once.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-01-22, 08:59 AM
Starships of the galaxy has some ideas for non-spacefaring classes to be useful in a space combat situation. People with mechanics or computer skill can operate sensors or repair battle damage...fooling sensors or keeping the shields up is often crucial in a combat situation.

If they have proficiency, the turret is also a great place to be.

Aside from that...the best thing they can do is to lend leadership where able, or barring that...provide boarding actions. Either to defend the ship against people boarding them, or to take a shuttle and try and sabotage operations on another ship to keep it out of the fight or perhaps some other objective.

Nobles with trust can be very useful in C&C...an ST can rule that a noble with the Trust talent can give actions and bolster people as long as they are in radio contact with fleet command...if that isn't a reason to have some nobles around...I don't know what is.

Lupy
2008-01-22, 09:08 AM
The encounter is today, and I wanna thank everyone who talked about space combat, but the Jedi stuff may come in handy later on. And if you can get one, the Haevy Blaster Pistol is the best weapon. 3d8 from an easily concealed pistol! Is there anything that can't do?

SpikeFightwicky
2008-01-22, 12:32 PM
SW is good if you don't use Jedi.

If you do, make sure you set it 4000 years before the battle of Yavin, give or take a century. That's the only setting that really works for Jedi characters.

(Note: the more recent post RotJ books don't exist. Jacen Solo did not kill Mara Jade and turn to the dark side. there are no Vuzhon Vong, and Chewbacca is still alive. That is all. Thank you.)

:smallfrown: Spoiler tags next time?

Anyone run into any problems with block/deflect? At mid levels, the bonus is actually quite high, all things considered (at level 10, your use force bonus is 5 (level 10) + 5 (proficiency bonus) + Cha + 5 (if they chose 'skill focus "use force"') for a +17 to +20ish bonus (for Cha score of 14 to 20). At that point, that's about one free deflect/block every round.

Starbuck_II
2008-01-22, 02:00 PM
:smallfrown: Spoiler tags next time?

Anyone run into any problems with block/deflect? At mid levels, the bonus is actually quite high, all things considered (at level 10, your use force bonus is 5 (level 10) + 5 (proficiency bonus) + Cha + 5 (if they chose 'skill focus "use force"') for a +17 to +20ish bonus (for Cha score of 14 to 20). At that point, that's about one free deflect/block every round.

Drawback is you need to declare you are blockming this attack before DM resolves the attack.
So you might use block on a attack that missed accidently prior to the one that would hit. The penalty to secondary blocks in a round sucks, but better than nothing.

Talya
2008-01-22, 02:33 PM
:smallfrown: Spoiler tags next time?


Sorry. I would assume that the statute of limitations has run out on those spoilers, years ago.

Jade_Tarem
2008-01-22, 02:55 PM
The problem is, Jedi are only cool when engaged in constant lightsaber duels and battles.

Say what?

A Jedi Character is as cool as you make it.

And there are enough "unnamed jedi" in New Jedi Order and Legacy of the Force for you to run a campaign with Jedi in it there. If you want your Jedi player to hate you, run it in NJO, towards the middle of the war when everyone hates the Jedi.

About the more recent stuff, if anyone cares for a non-mainstream opinion:

After reading the first 3 or so NJO books, I pretty much hated the series. The Yuuzhan Vong appeared to be a bunch of god-moders who could win at no effort. There was literally something of a reboot to the entire species after that, though, in the way they were written. (Most obvious sudden change: In the beginning the Vong are obliterating worlds left and right. After that, they suddenly have a religious prohibition on killing too many planets). If you just ignore the beginning of the series it's much more enjoyable - the Vong start out at a position of strength, but unlike before they have the occasional exploitable flaw. Then they run out of "mans". :P It's interesting how the New Republic, and later, the New Republic Part 2 (or The Galactic Alliance, if you have to be that way) slowly develop one device after another to counter the Yuuzhan Vong's mostly stagnant tech.

That's actually what changed the most. In the first three books, whenever the New Republic did something amazing to counter the Yuuzhan Vong, the Vong brought out their new "win" creature and called it a day. No strategy, no effort, no entertainment for the readers. Also Nom Anor changed from Thrawn-like schemer to, well, comical buffoon. The same thing holds for Tsavong Lah, only he wasn't as funny at the end.

Also, the Yuuzhan Vong killed Anakin Solo and Vergere and Ganner Rhysode and Lusa. That's pretty much their crowning achievement, as far as I'm concerned.

As for Legacy of the Force, well...

SpikeFightwicky
2008-01-22, 02:57 PM
Sorry. I would assume that the statute of limitations has run out on those spoilers, years ago.

I knew about the whole chewie thing, but not the Jacen dark side thing. No real biggie, I suppose, I probably won't be be reading the books for a while (every Chapters nearby was missing book 2 of the trilogy right after 'Unifying Force'), so I gradually lost interest. I take it Jacen's 'descent' was as emo as Hayden Christensen Anakin's?


After reading the first 3 or so NJO books, I pretty much hated the series. The Yuuzhan Vong appeared to be a bunch of god-moders who could win at no effort. There was literally something of a reboot to the entire species after that, though, in the way they were written. (Most obvious sudden change: In the beginning the Vong are obliterating worlds left and right. After that, they suddenly have a religious prohibition on killing too many planets). If you just ignore the beginning of the series it's much more enjoyable - the Vong start out at a position of strength, but unlike before they have the occasional exploitable flaw. Then they run out of "mans". :P It's interesting how the New Republic, and later, the New Republic Part 2 (or The Galactic Alliance, if you have to be that way) slowly develop one device after another to counter the Yuuzhan Vong's mostly stagnant tech.

That's actually what changed the most. In the first three books, whenever the New Republic did something amazing to counter the Yuuzhan Vong, the Vong brought out their new "win" creature and called it a day. No strategy, no effort, no entertainment for the readers. Also Nom Anor changed from Thrawn-like schemer to, well, comical buffoon. The same thing holds for Tsavong Lah, only he wasn't as funny at the end.

Also, the Yuuzhan Vong killed Anakin Solo and Vergere and Ganner Rhysode and Lusa. That's pretty much their crowning achievement, as far as I'm concerned.

I was mostly annoyed at anything involving the Jedi in the NJO, but anything written by Allston or Stackpole were the only redeeming books (didn't focus entirely on Jayna freaking out or Jacen being all exasperating).

Mando Knight
2008-01-22, 03:17 PM
Jacen fully turned to the Dark Side about a decade after the Vong are driven from the galaxy, and also involves a secret mate and child... not really a wife, as they went into that much secrecy...

I never really cared for Vergere, except that she cured Mara somewhere in the middle of NJO...

NJO is better if you jump in the middle, I think.

Fortunately, Aaron Allston is one of the authors in the current 9-book series detailing Jacen's fall from grace (and sanity).

Closet_Skeleton
2008-01-22, 03:24 PM
Unless I'm missing an important passage somewhere, this also applies to double weapons- you get the 2:1 conversion from power attack and twice strength to damage with both ends of a double weapon, since they're held in two hands.

No.

You can get x2 your strength when using a double weapon, but only if you attack with one end of it. If you use both ends as a full attack action then you only get x1 strength. There's been an official clarification for this but I'm not bothered to find the link.

Jack Zander
2008-01-22, 03:42 PM
Block can save them if they make the check.Saved me from a Vibro ax once.

You obviously were a higher level and the creature wielding it wasn't a Wookie (or you got lucky dice).

Level 20 Jedi with an 18 Cha has a +19 to block.

Level 20 Wookie with a 20 Str has a +25 to attack.

Sure, the Jedi probably has Skill Focus: Use the Force, but the Wookie probably has things like acrobatic strike. No matter what the Jedi does, the Wookie can match in terms of bonuses, and most likely the Jedi will have focused his character into a little more than simply deflection (like force powers), while it is not unreasonable for the Wookie character to have spent every last resource on attack and damage.

Yes, I am sorry to say but soldiers truly are the best at melee. Not Jedi.

Lupy
2008-01-23, 07:18 PM
Does anyone know a way to get my players to put points into their dump score (Charisma for [I]both[I] of them!)?

Talya
2008-01-23, 07:34 PM
You obviously were a higher level and the creature wielding it wasn't a Wookie (or you got lucky dice).

Level 20 Jedi with an 18 Cha has a +19 to block.

Level 20 Wookie with a 20 Str has a +25 to attack.

Sure, the Jedi probably has Skill Focus: Use the Force, but the Wookie probably has things like acrobatic strike. No matter what the Jedi does, the Wookie can match in terms of bonuses, and most likely the Jedi will have focused his character into a little more than simply deflection (like force powers), while it is not unreasonable for the Wookie character to have spent every last resource on attack and damage.

Yes, I am sorry to say but soldiers truly are the best at melee. Not Jedi.


Admittedly, at level 20, the game isn't balanced. Skills don't scale as well as attack bonus or (especially) defenses do. It's trivial for a jedi to have 45+ reflex defense at level 20. Block/deflect are only useful at that point vs. lower level opponents who roll lucky 20's. In order to even begin to balance it, they should have made "Skill Focus" a scaling bonus that starts at +1 and increases to +10 over 20 levels.

Now with that said, your wookie is still toast.

1. Soresu and Juyo/vapaad make all the difference there. I'd rather have Soresu on a block or Juyo on an attack than +5 to my roll. Soresu means that if your UTF bonus is within 5 points of their attack bonus, most of the time you'll block it...not that it will matter, because their attacks aren't hitting your reflex defense anyway. Juyo means that almost 10% of the time, your melee attacks will come up natural 20. (And only come up a natural 1 about 0.25% of the time), so even if they have that same high reflex defense that you do (which will be lower. Other classes don't have access to all the same ways to raise your reflex defense that Jedi do.)

2. If you're going with the 20 strength for the wookie, you can always have 20 charisma on the Jedi.

3. A jedi who maxes out Jedi Knight (which should in all honesty be all of them) will be spending force points with abandon...generally, 4-5 per encounter (and getting them all back at the end.) This makes a big difference on those rolls.

4. Nothing says the jedi with the lightsaber is not also a wookie. Which makes them the more competent and scarier wookie.

Mando Knight
2008-01-23, 07:57 PM
Does anyone know a way to get my players to put points into their dump score (Charisma for both of them!)?

Fixed the parsing...

Force them to use more Charisma-based skill checks. Then, when they start facing inappropriate encounters because of their inept social skills, they will start taking etiquette lessons from Princess Leia... and like it.
BWAHAHAHAHA!!!:smallbiggrin:

Jerthanis
2008-01-23, 11:35 PM
I never really cared for Vergere, except that she cured Mara somewhere in the middle of NJO...

NJO is better if you jump in the middle, I think.

I have to say, Vergere is actually my #1 favorite part about the entire Star Wars Mythos. She presented a philosophy with more substance to it than the EU and prequel movies would have you believe exists in Star Wars, but that I believe is alive within the Original Trilogy, but which no one really noticed. That the line is always between wisdom and foolishness, knowledge and ignorance, self-delusion and inner calm, not between temporal, perspective based truths of Good and Evil, or between Anger and Emotionlessness. I stopped reading Legacy of the Force the moment I heard that later she and her teachings were declared Sith... which is a COMPLETE misunderstanding of her fundamental philosophy... and of Jacen's essential nature.

*Cough* Enough of me being a huge Matthew Woodring Stover fan.

I have to say though, your assessment of NJO is pretty accurate. I jumped in around Balance Point, and thought it was barely good enough to go on. By the time I got to Enemy Lines I was more on board for the series, but when I went back to Vector Prime it was just completely lame. God-modding describes the Yuuzhan Vong perfectly in the first sets of books.

As far as running Star Wars, I think the really interesting part of Star Wars is in the nature of the Force, and probably wouldn't consider running a game devoid completely of Jedi, because I might as well just run Cyberpunk or Firefly, since the only other cool part about the setting is all the crime that can get done.

As far as the WEG system goes... I wish I liked it, but I don't. WEG Star Wars was actually my first gaming system in Middle School, and I played a lot of it back in the day. Coming back to it in College felt like I had been betrayed by a close friend. The way Skills and Attributes worked was lame, there weren't enough degrees of aptitude. I didn't like the way the Force worked, because it made a weak Jedi exceptionally hard to manage, because even the most trivial tasks were impossible when rolling a single d6. The amount of time spent to get Lightsaber Combat to work AT ALL would be somewhere in the ballpark of 30 game sessions with a lenient DM who gave lots of character points and allowed the Jedi character to be returning to his master all the time. But once that character has Lightsaber Combat? Combat God, nothing stops them, it's ludicrous. Also, having no real balancing factor to having force sensitivity was annoying. There's only one period where being force sensitive is at all a disadvantage, and even then, making things harder for one player is just making it harder for the whole group. I've really never played the D20 Star Wars, so I really have no place commenting on that, but I have read the books. I don't like the way Jedi are split in two. There shouldn't be a classification difference between Jedi who are great killers and those who are great diplomats and masters of the force. Jedi are Jedi, and in my mind, that should be that. Also, I found vehicle/spaceship combat to be completely incomprehensible.

I also like running games about intensely personal problems, and setting the time period when there's not a galaxy wide war going on. Think about the Star Wars time line for a minute. Practically every movie, game and EU novel is about some galactic scale war from Vader's rise to the Legacy of the Force it's like every time you turn around the galaxy is on fire. Considering Kotor1 is also set to a backdrop of a galaxy spanning war, you have to wonder if this Galaxy even knows the meaning of the word "Peace"

To be fair, this is fairly accurate to human history, which seems to really like having at least one big war every generation or so. Still, it makes an RPG refreshing to actually explore what peoples' lives are like when they're not killing each other all the time.

The Star Wars game I really want to run is a game set in the far past of the Old Republic, before the Jedi Order was as much a strictly enforced part of the government. It would be about a group of young Jedi Apprentices, and their Master, who dies suddenly. After their Master dies, they have to travel around the galaxy to find a new master to teach them the rest of the mysteries of the Force. Along the way they'd run into a host of situations. Border disputes, succession rights of dynasties, conniving businessmen, and Jedi Masters who refuse to take them, but who give them a bit of wisdom and perspective on the situation they just dealt with before sending them on. This game would start with each of the characters not having constructed their lightsabers, and would end with the characters being finally informed by the final Master they found describing them as already having become everything a Jedi Knight is, and they needed no more training.

Unfortunately, I'm in a group that doesn't really care for the Star Wars Universe. I've also got some ideas for Call of Cthulhu games that I can't run because my group can't take horror seriously either.

Rutee
2008-01-23, 11:51 PM
(Note: the more recent post RotJ books don't exist. Jacen Solo did not kill Mara Jade and turn to the dark side. there are no Vuzhon Vong, and Chewbacca is still alive. That is all. Thank you.)

Why would you even think any of that happened?
>.> <.< >.>

North
2008-01-24, 02:18 AM
Gah Spoilers!

My eyes, no its in my brain! Ah hell.

I just picked up the last five books...:smallfrown:

Id recommend the Legacy setting, the first comic one not the book one. It takes place 132 yrs after Endor. Really awesome. Lots of Sith, three galactic sized factions. Jedi remnants. Imperial Knights (Imp force users sworn to the Emperor) and more. Great setting to use.

Lupy
2008-01-24, 05:01 PM
Fixed the parsing...

Force them to use more Charisma-based skill checks. Then, when they start facing inappropriate encounters because of their inept social skills, they will start taking etiquette lessons from Princess Leia... and like it.
BWAHAHAHAHA!!!:smallbiggrin:

Just evil enough to work! >=)

Mando Knight
2008-01-24, 05:29 PM
Just evil enough to work! >=)

Ya think so? I liked the last bit myself, just picturing random tough-guy soldier types having tea and biscuits with Leia on the Home One, with their pinkies extended and speaking Victorian English.

Lupy
2008-01-25, 09:30 PM
The Scout will cry, he expects a shoot-out and gets a lesson on table manners >=). Do they get ability points?

TheThan
2008-01-25, 10:05 PM
The Scout will cry, he expects a shoot-out and gets a lesson on table manners >=). Do they get ability points?

Wait, they get to hang out with Leia?

What ever happened to 3P0, thatís his job. You know etiquette and protocol.

Lupy
2008-01-25, 10:07 PM
And I quote "Now Thog, I'm still civil." -Nale
:smalltongue:

Mando Knight
2008-01-26, 12:04 AM
They only whip out 3PO for those with <7 Charisma. Besides, 3PO can't drink tea or eat biscuits.:smallwink:

Lupy
2008-01-26, 10:43 AM
Hmmm... Maybe Leia's ettiquette class can be the boss in a session... Mwuhahahahahahahahahahahahaha:biggrin:

Starbuck_II
2008-01-26, 11:04 AM
You obviously were a higher level and the creature wielding it wasn't a Wookie (or you got lucky dice).

Level 20 Jedi with an 18 Cha has a +19 to block.

Level 20 Wookie with a 20 Str has a +25 to attack.

Sure, the Jedi probably has Skill Focus: Use the Force, but the Wookie probably has things like acrobatic strike. No matter what the Jedi does, the Wookie can match in terms of bonuses, and most likely the Jedi will have focused his character into a little more than simply deflection (like force powers), while it is not unreasonable for the Wookie character to have spent every last resource on attack and damage.

Yes, I am sorry to say but soldiers truly are the best at melee. Not Jedi.

Nope, he was the higher level (most NPCs are). Non-heroics have this slow moving CR. So fighting higher level non-heroics guys is the usual.

I used a force point.That was the deciding factor (non-heroics can't use them). I'm glad it wasn't a non-heroic multiclassed into heroic.

He was Level 7 non-heroic and we were 3rd level (or 4th I forget). Granted, after that I force Stunned him to knock out (rolled a 20 and have Skill Focus: use the force making him go down alot).

I am lucky it worked.

A tougher battle was prior when we fought a sith Witch (well, it was a Witch of whatever they called with Force lightning). She had a beast that was huge I think.

This was before we read errata that it was Fort defense not Will for Force Stun. So the beast went down inatantly to that.

The Force Lightning attack was terrible. I negated the energy damage, but t doesn't stop the down condition effect so I was being slowly beaten down.

I used a Force point to gain it back after using because I knew she would again. I was right she did (this one missed, so no condition at least issue).
The third one I negated, but after that she wasted me. I spent destiny to stay alive.

Luckily the rest of party was beating her down too. The main badguys always beat down on my ewok jedi :smallfrown:



This game would start with each of the characters not having constructed their lightsabers, and would end with the characters being finally informed by the final Master they found describing them as already having become everything a Jedi Knight is, and they needed no more training.

So you would force them to go 6 levels before they can get a Lightsaber? In Saga, only 7th level characters can make a Lightsaber. You start with one if take Level in jedi, but that is it.

Beleriphon
2008-01-26, 11:42 AM
So you would force them to go 6 levels before they can get a Lightsaber? In Saga, only 7th level characters can make a Lightsaber. You start with one if take Level in jedi, but that is it.

An important point to remember, any character of any class can make a lightsaber provided they are proficient and Force Sensitive

Starbuck_II
2008-01-26, 01:45 PM
An important point to remember, any character of any class can make a lightsaber provided they are proficient and Force Sensitive

Still only level 7 heroics can. True, non-Jedi heroics can at that time.

Closet_Skeleton
2008-01-26, 01:56 PM
I don't like the way Jedi are split in two. There shouldn't be a classification difference between Jedi who are great killers and those who are great diplomats and masters of the force. Jedi are Jedi, and in my mind, that should be that. Also, I found vehicle/spaceship combat to be completely incomprehensible.

The latest edition merges the two Jedi classes and completely re-writes Starship combat.

Mando Knight
2008-01-26, 02:39 PM
And then it adds in two Jedi Prestige Classes: Knight and Master, so they aren't all one class exactly...

Jerthanis
2008-01-26, 05:48 PM
So you would force them to go 6 levels before they can get a Lightsaber? In Saga, only 7th level characters can make a Lightsaber. You start with one if take Level in jedi, but that is it.

Yeah, the idea behind the game was to take a young Jedi from adolescence to being a fully fledged Jedi Knight, and from what I understood from Return of the Jedi, the construction of your own lightsaber was a key step towards the very end of your training period. I was also going to push the idea that a Jedi is more than just a lightsaber, but a philosopher, diplomat, and mystic, as well as a powerful warrior.


The latest edition merges the two Jedi classes and completely re-writes Starship combat.

Man, sounds like I really need to get Saga edition.

Talya
2008-01-26, 06:32 PM
Before you get all excited, I should point out that due to the incredibly limited number of talents that one gets, and the number of "must have" talents in the jedi list to master something, you very much still must choose between diplomat and lightsaber combat expert.

Closet_Skeleton
2008-01-26, 08:01 PM
And then it adds in two Jedi Prestige Classes: Knight and Master, so they aren't all one class exactly...

That's a progression of skill, not a division of types of Jedi.


from what I understood from Return of the Jedi, the construction of your own lightsaber was a key step towards the very end of your training period.

Yes, but you should give them not self built lightsabers before hand or they have 7 levels where any lightsaber focusing feats or talents are useless.


Before you get all excited, I should point out that due to the incredibly limited number of talents that one gets, and the number of "must have" talents in the jedi list to master something, you very much still must choose between diplomat and lightsaber combat expert.

I tend to ignore the supposed "must have" Jedi talents. You can still choose to be a diplomat Jedi, but the game doesn't tell you that you have to be one or the other and allows the diplomat Jedi to be okay at fighting, even if he doesn't rush into fights.

Lupy
2008-01-27, 01:18 PM
In addtion to the two Jedi prestiege classes there is the Sith Master Class, which also requires you start as a Jedi.

Mando Knight
2008-01-27, 01:40 PM
In addtion to the two Jedi prestiege classes there is the Sith Master Class, which also requires you start as a Jedi.

Sith Lord doesn't require any Jedi levels. You just need Force Sensitivity, Weapon Proficiency (lightsabers), and a Force Technique, which can be gained from Force Adept or Sith Apprentice. (and you need to be level 12 and a member of the Sith, but that's besides the point)

You could just as easily make a Sith Lord from a Level 7 Soldier/ Level 5 Sith Apprentice/ level 1+ Sith Lord. No Jedi levels at all.

Lupy
2008-01-27, 08:09 PM
Thanks, I dont have my book with me. Did it in revised, cuz I think I read that in 1 of them.