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wadledo
2008-01-22, 08:29 PM
The Ultimate Classes, found here:
http://www.liquidmateria.info/wiki/Ultimate_Classes
are a very interesting, and in some cases good, alternative to the normal classes.

Aside from some problems (Gadgeteer's not having Gadgets, monks doing less damage with unarmed strikes, few races/classes having all the fluff, etc.), there are few hitches, and as a whole they are very well done.

So, what do y'all think of 'em?

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-01-22, 08:48 PM
I'm almost done making an "Ultimate Warlock", combining the Warlock and Binder.

Partysan
2008-01-23, 06:04 AM
I'm working on them myself because I love them so much^^
I do play a Ult. Fighter 6/Ult. Skirmisher 14 at the moment, using fantastic feat fix. He's pretty awesome and very fun to play.

I like those classes because they are very flavourful, very versatile and already incorporate many prestige classes.

However, some are not yet finished (eg the sorcerer or, as you pointed out, the gadgeteer)

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-01-23, 05:33 PM
I'm also making a Ultimate ToB style class.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-01-24, 10:03 AM
Very interesting. I would love for my players (and myself) to use these classes, it defiantly seems like it would make them much more fun to use. The only problem is convincing them...

GoC
2008-01-24, 08:10 PM
These look awesome! Better than the "real" classes!:smallcool:

Parvum
2008-01-25, 02:57 PM
I really like the provided classes (especially invocations for nearly everyone), though I have yet to read all of them. How often have these been feild tested, would they work in a normal campaign (I'm terrible at determining things like compatibility)?

There isn't any reason why normal person D couldn't make a prestige class or something similar, is there? I can't quite find what Ultimate Classes are and their details... here is what I found on the wiki:


Ultimate Goals
From LiMaWiki

What are we trying to accomplish with the Ultimate Classes?

It's always been about options, but there has to be more to it than that. What do you want from the Ultimate Classes?

This page is here to solidify our goals and give us something to look back on when we are questioning our direction.

Retrieved from "http://www.liquidmateria.info/wiki/Ultimate_Goals"

...

Yakk
2008-01-25, 03:48 PM
Ultimate classes always seem fiddly to me.

One runs into the problem that with all of those fiddly abilities, a GM would need to know the entire character progression planned to determine if the build is broken in either direction...

But still, a good effort.

wadledo
2008-01-25, 10:05 PM
@Parvum:I'm going to be running a game, and I know of a couple others that are around.
Also, the whole point is that you don't need to a PrC, because they're so open ended.

@Yakk: So that's not the case with the normal classes?:smallconfused:

Parvum
2008-01-25, 10:11 PM
@Parvum:I'm going to be running a game, and I know of a couple others that are around.
Also, the whole point is that you don't need to a PrC, because they're so open ended.

Curses. I had an interesting idea for a wilder/vessel with emotion trigger... hm... what about multiclass feats...

But speaking of the wilder... though I'm noone to argue with mechanics, the flavor of a wilder being one sort of emotion... forever... never changing... just seems revolting to me. Aren't wilders unpredictable sacks of emotions, as opposed to pre-programmed robots?

END MILD UNSUPPORTED RANT.

Good luck in the Ultimate game.

wadledo
2008-01-25, 10:20 PM
But speaking of the wilder... though I'm noone to argue with mechanics, the flavor of a wilder being one sort of emotion... forever... never changing... just seems revolting to me. Aren't wilders unpredictable sacks of emotions, as opposed to pre-programmed robots?

END MILD UNSUPPORTED RANT.

Good luck in the Ultimate game.

Also, I view the wilders as being extremely *that emotion* but capable of all others to a lesser extent.
Like an Excitement wilder will be really hyper all the time and other emotions will be lessened, so if something horrible happens they don't get depressed for long.

Also, thanks.:smallbiggrin:

Yakk
2008-01-26, 03:24 AM
@Yakk: So that's not the case with the normal classes?:smallconfused:

No, not to the same extent.

First, most of the classes have 6 different sub-versions with different paths.

Or they have huge pools of abilities they pick between.

Now, the problem of "lots of abilities to pick between" existed in the cleric, druid, wizard and sorcerer core classes -- but that is one of their main problems. It doesn't matter if 90% of their spells are balanced and OK and not a problem -- if 10% or 5% of their spells are too strong, then the classes get to pick those to-strong spells or spells that break the game.

The flurry of abilities that many classes have in the Ultimate make every class as difficult to balance as the Wizard was in core. I'd have to read over every single ability they can pick, and ponder on how it could be abused, and figure out how useful it is. And if one allowed carte-blanch of the classes, one would also have to do a cross-class ability comparison to make sure there isn't a synergy between two classes that breaks the game.

So, I agree that the classes contain neat ideas. My problem is that they are full of fiddly bits, and that they where designed via fiat, and that their authors aren't known.

So I can't even say "I looked at 2 of the classes, and they where designed well -- so I can trust the rest somewhat", because other classes might have been tossed together by someone completely different...

Still, some very neat ideas. Just ... fiddly.

wadledo
2008-01-26, 10:11 AM
Very valid, and I'm not saying anything against you but from what I've looked at:

All the spellcaster have a max Spells-per-day of 4,
They don't have 8th or 9th level spells,
And while they do get Invocations, those are some of the least over powered spells in the game.

Though I have no clue what C.L. means.:smallconfused:

Also, the Melee characters special abilities are on par with ToB(not that thats saying anything), and I don't allow multi-classing.

@V: Dur!:smalltongue:
Thanks.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-01-26, 01:19 PM
C.L. means Caster Level.

wadledo
2008-01-26, 11:26 PM
I just had a conversation with one of my possible players over PM, and I was informed of the Weakening/Draining Invocation Ancestral Mark's, which allow a Sorcerer to have a fireball that bestows 1 negative level and 2 points of ability damage.
Infinitely.
I mean, WTF!?:smalleek: :smallconfused:
Is it that these don't apply a second time or is this just a horrible oversight?

Fizban
2008-01-26, 11:57 PM
I was under the impression that all of the Ultimate Classes were made by the same person. I think he was Szatany on these boards, or something similar. Though now that I think about it, he did say he was done with them, and I could see someone else continuing it, though I'd expect they'd have oaky'd taking over from him first.

Edit: oh, yeah, the link above goes to a wiki, right. I first saw them on the WoTC boards, and there's a single thread archive of them somewhere on there. That might go a way towards assuaging the fear of multimple authors. I don't seem to have the link anymore though.

wadledo
2008-01-27, 12:01 AM
Only thing is that I despise Wiki chat, and several posters seem to be working on them as well, so I get to kill two birds with one stone as it where.

dyslexicfaser
2008-01-27, 02:13 AM
There are those iffy spots, yes, Wadledo. Rogues on the assassin path, for example, can get two of their rogue bonus feats to get Weakening Strike and that other Strike, so that each time they hit with a sneak attack, they do 2 points of str and con damage.

With TWF and at higher levels, this would make them horrible ability-draining monsters, using just these two feats.