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UserClone
2008-01-22, 09:54 PM
This one I'm just not sure about (Hellfire Warlock aside) due to the different Invocation lists, the Warlock has better BAB, but the Dragonfire Adept needs it less due to the breath weapon...how do you think they measure up to one another?

ZekeArgo
2008-01-22, 10:06 PM
This one I'm just not sure about (Hellfire Warlock aside) due to the different Invocation lists, the Warlock has better BAB, but the Dragonfire Adept needs it less due to the breath weapon...how do you think they measure up to one another?

Dragonfire Adept all the way. Gives access to metabreath and other breath weapon feats, nevermind the awesome combos that the breaths themselves can do.

Solo
2008-01-22, 10:11 PM
Warlocks can go Crafterlock and craft WMDs* for the win.




*Wondrous Magical Devices

tyckspoon
2008-01-22, 10:15 PM
Dragonfire Adept all the way. Gives access to metabreath and other breath weapon feats, nevermind the awesome combos that the breaths themselves can do.

Most metabreath feats require you to have a breath with a recharge time expressed in rounds, preferably a random number. Dragonfire Adepts don't have that. Their breath weapons are at-will abilities, usable every round, and don't qualify for metabreath feats with the normal requirements. A lot of their breath essences do mimic metabreath effects.

Alleine
2008-01-22, 10:31 PM
IIRC, there was a feat somewhere that could be applied to the dragonfire adept's breath weapon, but gave it a cooldown. Opening the way for meta-breath feats.

Now if only I could find it.

EDIT: found it, Power Surge from Dragon Magazine #313 can be applied to DFA's breath weapon, and gives it a recharge rate of one round among other things.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-01-22, 10:32 PM
I prefer DFA over warlocks just because of that free identify goodness.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-22, 10:38 PM
Dragonfire Adepts are considerably more potent, because they're good at something--very good, in fact. They start by taking Entangling Exhalation for a no-save debuff that actually *ups* their overall damage at low levels, then take Slow Breath, and wind up with the Chilling Fog invocation, which is basically Solid Fog at will. That, plus utility in the form of, say, Knowledges.

Dragonfire Adepts aren't damage-dealers. They're powerful debuffers and battlefield controllers.

13_CBS
2008-01-22, 11:31 PM
On top of what Rachel just said, DAs can also be useful for either:

1) One hit desperation blast (combine a crapload of damage increasing metabreath effects, Fivefold Breath, and perhaps something else for something like 315ish damage)

2) Providing different elements for attack. Few creatures are immune to sonic or force.

Granted, DAs don't EXCEL at these two fields, but these axilliary purposes can come in handy.

Also, you could be a Dragon Born and get those snazzy Metabreath feats.

Mephisto
2008-01-22, 11:47 PM
Dragonfire Adepts aren't damage-dealers. They're powerful debuffers and battlefield controllers.

QFT. They have quite a few breath effects that are "save-and-suck", still debilitating even if the target saves.

Danin
2008-01-23, 12:04 AM
I'm actually going to throw my vote in for the Warlock. More invocations, better at long range and nifty class abilities. I enjoy the flavor more and I suppose it's just a personal thing but I like em.:smallsmile:

The_Snark
2008-01-23, 12:14 AM
I prefer the warlock, myself (greater range on the blast than you'll get on a breath weapon). They have some nice debuffing effects tooŚChilling Tentacles is handy, and some of the blast essences are good. Noxious Blast, most notably. Eldritch Glaive can force an enemy to save multiple times per round.

Then they have a few save-or-lose invocations, plus dispelling and some utility stuff. They're not the most powerful around, but they definitely have their uses.

JakStone
2008-01-23, 12:20 AM
While I love both, I'm going to play Devils Advocate (pun intended) and throw in my vote for Warlock. The major advantages the Warlock has, as far as damage goes, is a lack of reliance on energy damage and a ranged attack (250ft with eldritch spear) and, thanks to other invocations, can still match the Adept point for point in area damage later on. (Discounting the Fivefold and Discorporating breaths.)

Plus, IMO, Warlocks are just cooler. Dark Discorporation, Path of Shadow, and Word of Changing are all extremely strong and fun as all else. :D

Lady Tialait
2008-01-23, 12:29 AM
I had a freind who wanted to play a Warlock for a bit, but he hated the flavor, and it was hard to convence to ignore the flavor, so when DFA came out he jumped at it (he is a dragon freak) ....needless to say, he was right next to Warlock in the party, and i'll have to say, i'll say they are really even, but the DFA wins by a slim margian.

mabriss lethe
2008-01-23, 01:22 AM
I prefer warlocks. flavor is better. More invocations, but that's balanced out by the DFA not needing to learn essence or shape invocations. They learn breath effect's seperately from invocations. From what i've noticed, they're a little easier from a book keeping aspect, but only by the slightest of margins. In combat, they fill pretty much the same role and do it about as well as the other. I like the invocation list for the warlock much more than the DFA. D door and Shadow walk at will? yes please. Defensively, they come out about even. Warlocks get DR vs cold iron, DFA gets DR vs magic. In most campaigns that puts the warlock slightly ahead. Warlock gets fast healing and energy resistance. DFA gets a Natural Armor rating and have to blow an invocation for energy resistance.

DFAs are just kinda goofy... .... ... There. I said it and I'm proud.

Kurald Galain
2008-01-23, 06:20 AM
I believe Warlocks win in the area of versatility and utility. Things like invisibility at will and shatter at will are very useful.

In terms of random combat ability it's probably the DFA, unless you make a very solid W build.

Godna
2008-01-23, 07:10 AM
Im going to need to know more about the dragonfire adept before i can make a judgement that is fair and honest.

Mr. Friendly
2008-01-23, 09:01 AM
I prefer Dragonfire Adept, but Warlocks are very, very cool.

I would love to play a Gestalt game with a Warlock/DFA :D

My favorite DFA invocation (aside from the obvious completely awesome one like Chilling Fog) is the 1st level one that gives you Detect Magic at will and you can burn it off to Identify.

My DM hated me for eliminating the 100gp burn for IDs which, over time, saved us a fair amount of cash.

EDIT:

I am hoping that DFAs appear realtively quickly in 4th Edition.

AKA_Bait
2008-01-23, 09:37 AM
Going to have to throw down with the 'lock. The magic item creation abilities give them just way more versitility than the DFA. Also, as mentioned, their fly/invisibility/flee the scene ability makes them potent snipers and lets them make full use of whatever nifty stuff they create/emulate.

I'll admit, it's close though. Six of one and a bakers half-dozen of the other.

Person_Man
2008-01-23, 09:47 AM
As a DM I've seen them both played. As a player, I've been a Warlock. My take on them is that a Dragonfire Adept is definitely more fun and easy to use, and if you don't use PrC, it's more powerful.

But the Warlock has gotten a lot more support in the splat books. So if you heavily optimize, its more powerful then the DFA. Eldritch Disciple, Demonbinder, Hellfire Warlock, etc.

Burley
2008-01-23, 10:45 AM
Okay, everybody knows I'm in love with the warlock. So, predictably, I'm gonna say that the Warlock is the greatest to ever be great.
But, I will say this: The next character I'm going to play is a DFA. They have the same eternal usefulness that the Warlock does, but with certain abilities that I'm always finding myself lacking. One specific example is: My dice always roll horribly when the baddies are low on health and I just need to hit them to kill them. The breath weapon would help me deal damage each time, even if they can turn it into half-damage. Plus, Warlocks can Detect Magic (which really helps in my current campiagn), but we have NO way to Identify stuff. The DFA could be helpful in that respect.
I love the overall feel of the Warlock, but I think it'd be nice to not be thought of as a Demon-Lover everywhere I go. (I'm a fey-touched Warlock.)

AKA_Bait
2008-01-23, 11:18 AM
Plus, Warlocks can Detect Magic (which really helps in my current campiagn), but we have NO way to Identify stuff.


You are aware that a Warlock, or any character, can make a Spell Craft check to essentially identify a magical item if they are detecting magic on it right? The DC's can be pretty high, but by midlevels you should be able to succeed consistantly.

Craig1f
2008-01-23, 11:26 AM
You are aware that a Warlock, or any character, can make a Spell Craft check to essentially identify a magical item if they are detecting magic on it right? The DC's can be pretty high, but by midlevels you should be able to succeed consistantly.

That's a big negative. You can't do that with magic items. You have to use identify.

Douglas
2008-01-23, 11:29 AM
A spellcraft check with Detect Magic just gets you the school of the item, which is far from enough to identify it. To actually identify an item with spellcraft requires a DC 50 + caster level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spellcraft) check, which you're not likely to be able to make before epic without some serious optimization.

AKA_Bait
2008-01-23, 11:58 AM
That's a big negative. You can't do that with magic items. You have to use identify.

Yes you can. Please see page 82 of the Rules Compendium and below.


A spellcraft check with Detect Magic just gets you the school of the item, which is far from enough to identify it. To actually identify an item with spellcraft requires a DC 50 + caster level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spellcraft) check, which you're not likely to be able to make before epic without some serious optimization.

That's incorrect. Detect Magic with a check of (25 + 1/2 the item's Caster Level) tells you the items functions, its means of activation, and number of charges remaining. I will not quote the full text here because it is not OGL. It is on the same page of the Rules Compendium I referenced above. A check of at most 35 for a 20 CL item is not that hard to make with some help and a spell or two, even at midlevels.

Douglas
2008-01-23, 12:26 PM
If the Rules Compendium says that, then that is a completely new rule printed absolutely nowhere else, and really should have been included in the free errata for the Player's Handbook. It also goes above and beyond what I understood the Rules Compendium to be - namely clarifications and better organization and presentation of existing rules.

AKA_Bait
2008-01-23, 12:44 PM
If the Rules Compendium says that, then that is a completely new rule printed absolutely nowhere else, and really should have been included in the free errata for the Player's Handbook. It also goes above and beyond what I understood the Rules Compendium to be - namely clarifications and better organization and presentation of existing rules.

I pretty sure that it is mentioned in another, non-ogl, source as well. Which one I don't remember off the top of my head. Not every rule or use of a skill has been made OGL. WotC does want to have things that only people who actually pay for their product get and I don't begrudge them that.

Regardless, it is what the rules compendium says, and is still an option.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 12:44 PM
Warlocks have their uses, but to me DFAs are more well-rounded. And qualifying for Draconic Heritage feats? Incredible. You can get wings or claws or make it so you get 2 HP per draconic feat you have (which is actually decent, believe it or not). Couple that feat with Draconic Knowledge, Draconic Senses, and Draconic Heritage (Breed of Choice), you end up with blindsense, darkvision, low-light vision, +5 to all knowledges, +5 to saves vs. one element and one status (as determined by Breed of Choice), and +8 HP.

The Draconic Heritage feats, to me, are great, because the more you have the better they get.

Thrawn183
2008-01-23, 12:55 PM
I think warlocks get a big plus with the the larger number of invocations known.

On the other hand, DFA's don't have to worry about touch attacks (granted, its not often much of a handicap), or spell resistance (hooray supernatural abilities!).

Personally I think the breath effects balance out the invocations of a warlock pretty well.

What gets me on the side of the DFA is being CON based! I really want to play a dwarf DFA 18/Deepwarden 2 that has done nothing except pump CON and taken Endurance and Steadfast Determination. I am actually playing one that is on its way towards that destination right now. Crazy fun, simple to play, works great in a party.

Craig1f
2008-01-23, 01:22 PM
The DFA I play in a campaign is mysterious. Picture a wild-west gunslinger, except instead of guns, he has wands at his hip. Highly charismatic, diplomatic. He hides his powers easily, since he uses wands for most things.

The first time the party sees him breathing fire, they're like "holy crap. Did NOT see that coming."

osyluth
2008-01-23, 03:15 PM
In Complete Arcane, it doesn't seem to say anywhere how many uses per day the warlock has of his invocations. Could someone please tell me where this is?

Fax Celestis
2008-01-23, 03:17 PM
In Complete Arcane, it doesn't seem to say anywhere how many uses per day the warlock has of his invocations. Could someone please tell me where this is?

A warlock is not limited by uses per day. Neither is the DFA from Dragon Magic. That's part of their shtick.

UserClone
2008-01-23, 04:19 PM
In the Invocation description, in the first chapter, under the Warlock. It says that Invocations are at-will SLAs.

Tokiko Mima
2008-01-23, 04:57 PM
This one I'm just not sure about (Hellfire Warlock aside) due to the different Invocation lists, the Warlock has better BAB, but the Dragonfire Adept needs it less due to the breath weapon...how do you think they measure up to one another?

I would say that mechanically, the Warlock is better at level 1 (Summon Swarm) and levels 12-20+ (Imbue Item.) A dragonfire adept does tend to be more fun at all levels, because warlocks are one of those classes encouraged to do one thing very well and that can be monotonous, whereas the DFA has tons of options.

Ganurath
2008-01-23, 05:13 PM
Warlock, for several reasons:
1. Baleful Utterance. If you aren't sure it's safe, shatter anything you don't want for yourself.
2. Spiderwalk. Climb checks are for the weak.
3. Detect Magic at will.
4. The Dead Walk. Stuff a bag of holding full of guard dogs, and you have easy to carry reinforcements / trap triggers that the kobolds won't be ready for.
5. Voracious Dispelling. Can this be used for a counterspell action? If so, move it up to #1.
6. Vitriolic Blast. I got your SR right here!
7. Imbue Item. Imbue Item. Imbue Item. Imbue Item.
8. Dark Foresight. Also known as the Plot Shield, Dominic Deegan class.
9. Retribute Invisibility. I'm sorry, were you expecting Walk Unseen?
10. Word of Changing. Just take a moment and laugh a bit.

marjan
2008-01-23, 05:28 PM
If the Rules Compendium says that, then that is a completely new rule printed absolutely nowhere else, and really should have been included in the free errata for the Player's Handbook.

It is also mentioned in MIC in section about identifying magic items.

AKA_Bait
2008-01-23, 05:30 PM
It is also mentioned in MIC in section about identifying magic items.

There we go. I knew I saw it someplace else recently. Thanks!

Bag_of_Holding
2008-01-23, 07:08 PM
Nightmare Made Real invocation from Complete Mage is quite nice too. Silent Hill anyone? :smallamused:

Craig1f
2008-01-24, 10:08 AM
Nightmare Made Real invocation from Complete Mage is quite nice too. Silent Hill anyone? :smallamused:

Nightmares made real is pretty badass, but you should really just take Chilling Tentacles.

I think the only reason to take Nightmares instead of Tentacles is if you're multiclassing. The Tentacles STR modifier is based on your caster level, while Nightmares is simply based on the spell level.

ZeroNumerous
2008-01-24, 10:20 AM
1. Baleful Utterance. If you aren't sure it's safe, shatter anything you don't want for yourself.
2. Spiderwalk. Climb checks are for the weak.
3. Detect Magic at will.
4. The Dead Walk. Stuff a bag of holding full of guard dogs, and you have easy to carry reinforcements / trap triggers that the kobolds won't be ready for.
5. Voracious Dispelling. Can this be used for a counterspell action? If so, move it up to #1.
6. Vitriolic Blast. I got your SR right here!
7. Imbue Item. Imbue Item. Imbue Item. Imbue Item.
8. Dark Foresight. Also known as the Plot Shield, Dominic Deegan class.
9. Retribute Invisibility. I'm sorry, were you expecting Walk Unseen?
10. Word of Changing. Just take a moment and laugh a bit.

1. Entangling Exhalation. Auto-entangle whoever gets hit.
2. Slow Breath. Save and still suck.
3. Free Identify.
4. Humanoid Shape. Alter Self for humanoids.
5. Voracious Dispelling. Hey, it's damn useful.
6. Breath Weapon. SR means jack to me.
7. Draconic Toughness. Free temp HP!
8. Chilling Fog. Free Solid Fog!
9. Power Surge + Maximize Breath + Fivefold Breath of Tiamat. No, you just die.
10. Charm. You're everybody's friend--As long as they have a poor Will save.

Burley
2008-01-24, 10:58 AM
The DFA I play in a campaign is mysterious. Picture a wild-west gunslinger, except instead of guns, he has wands at his hip. Highly charismatic, diplomatic. He hides his powers easily, since he uses wands for most things.

The first time the party sees him breathing fire, they're like "holy crap. Did NOT see that coming."

My Warlock is a gunslinger two, but instead of wands, he uses wooden pistols to fire his Eldritch Blast. Think of a rubber band gun that fires searing energy.

Craig1f
2008-01-24, 11:08 AM
My Warlock is a gunslinger two, but instead of wands, he uses wooden pistols to fire his Eldritch Blast. Think of a rubber band gun that fires searing energy.

Haha. Nice.

I did play an Eldritch Disciple in another campaign. That guy was an overpowered freak. He was a serious powerhouse. So I have nothing against Warlocks. The DM ruled that my eldritch blast could be made to have more of a moon color, since I was a cleric of Selune. That way, I could play it off as a divine power. The fact that I could fire healing blasts made it easy to believe.

The DFA just has such interesting flavor to it though. It's fun to play.

Burley
2008-01-24, 11:20 AM
The DFA just has such interesting flavor to it though. It's fun to play.

True, the DFA has a nice flavor. But, to me, it's not a flavor I like to get behind. I always have more fun playing mischevious characters, and while I can play a character however I really want...the invocations for the Warlock are more eccentric. Disembodied Hand and Eye? Those are awesome. Besides the fact that they are great utilities, making your hand fall off is a pretty great way to escape handcuffs. Plus, they make great pets, which a warlock never gets thanks to stupid rules. (I'm not bitter...:smallannoyed:)

Another great plus (contrasting the Draconic Heritage feats) is the Demonic/Fey heritage feats. Lots of nifty extra abilites, and if you use them, they may save you from taking an invocation that'd only be useful every once in a while. Plus, Demon/Fey Skin gives you bonus DR/Cold Iron, which stacks with your warlock levels. (I dunno if there is a draconic heritage feat that pumps the DFA...I can't remember).

Plus, on top of ALL of that: Fell Flight. Okay, yeah, it's not as good as the perfect maneuverability of that really high DFA invocation. But, you don't sprout wings, which means you can fly in confined spaces, and hover without taking extra feats. Plus, since it's magic floating for 24 hours and not wing flapping, you don't have to make endurance checks if you've been flying all day, even if you're "running". (Show me a rule that says I'm wrong, and I'll show you a player who will never show that rule to his DM because I don't wanna.:smalltongue: )

Craig1f
2008-01-24, 12:33 PM
True, the DFA has a nice flavor. But, to me, it's not a flavor I like to get behind. I always have more fun playing mischevious characters, and while I can play a character however I really want...the invocations for the Warlock are more eccentric. Disembodied Hand and Eye? Those are awesome. Besides the fact that they are great utilities, making your hand fall off is a pretty great way to escape handcuffs. Plus, they make great pets, which a warlock never gets thanks to stupid rules. (I'm not bitter...:smallannoyed:)

I also like redeemed characters. My eldritch disciple's backstory was that he started out evil. He inherited his powers, so he still had his soul, but he was an evil guy. Falls in love with a chick, gradually becomes neutral. Eventually, she gets him interested in her religion (Selune). He starts to become good, joins, takes some levels of cleric. She disappears, he falls to pieces, leaves the church, and starts killing lycanthropes. Realizes he can do a lot of good with his power, and notices his power growing (eldritch disciple levels).

One time, when we were in the Abyss, I roleplayed that as he cast spells, he'd start to feel his "demonic" side take over. Every spell that he cast reduced Selune's grip on his conscience, and he started becoming bloodthirsty and violent. When he was able to pray for spells, he returned to normalcy.




Plus, on top of ALL of that: Fell Flight. Okay, yeah, it's not as good as the perfect maneuverability of that really high DFA invocation. But, you don't sprout wings, which means you can fly in confined spaces, and hover without taking extra feats. Plus, since it's magic floating for 24 hours and not wing flapping, you don't have to make endurance checks if you've been flying all day, even if you're "running". (Show me a rule that says I'm wrong, and I'll show you a player who will never show that rule to his DM because I don't wanna.:smalltongue: )

First, the dragon wings are incorporeal, so they don't get in the way. Second, the warlock still sprouts a long, dark, tattered, cape-like thing that is quite obvious. The cape is easily as obvious as the dragon wings, except of course that a black cape is harder to see than glowing metallic wings.

RAW says that magical flying is as exhausting as walking. You have to make endurance checks to fly. The description of fell flight is basically that you are using the spell "fly", except it's 24 hours, you have good maneuverability, and you sprout a tattered cape thingy.

Also, the ability to hover is a function of your maneuverability. Because the Draconic Flight, Fell Flight, and Fly all have maneuverability of "good", you are able to hover. Overland Flight, for example, would not allow hovering, because it has maneuverability "average", and requires a minimum forward movement to maintain flight.

The dragon wings are actually superior, unless you are successful at rules-lawyering. You should look up "aerial movement" rules in the DMG.

ChaosDefender24
2008-01-24, 01:11 PM
I think that the DFA does the Warlock's job better. Ultimately, the Warlock is best if you're doing battlefield control, such as with chilling tentacles, the cone shape, and the force push (don't know their real names, AFB).
The DFA has a one-dimensional emphasis on battlefield control from the very beginning with entangling exhalation and sickening breath, and it gets even better with slow breath and the like, and I think that the extreme focus on that outstrips the warlock by far. They even get a chilling solid fog just to add insult to injury. Finally, especially if you go to town with metabreath, the DFA can in the end run in and do massive damage with the Fivefold Nuke of Tiamat, doing one of the Warlock's other jobs much better (who needs that stupid utterdark cone, anyway?). I don't see the Warlock ever dishing out too much damage if the situation is ever called for.
You also don't have to put up with SR if you're a DFA (for your breath weapons, anyway), and that's a real setback for the warlock.
UMD is harder with the DFA, however.

Wizard_Will
2008-04-28, 08:30 AM
I'm actually playing a gestalt DFA//Warlock right now and I don't use my warlock side very much. Entagling Exhalation has already sent my DM into a fit of rage twice. Maybe if the breath weapon was only the 15 (eventually 30ft) cone it'd be different, but I can use the line effect to hit anything within EB range (I took spiderwalk, baelful utterance, and see the unseen). Since nothing has had evasion yet, even when they save the enemy is entangled for 1d4 rounds.

I find my warlock invocations are more useful just because theres more, but my group loves me for identifying items when we find them and being able to control an entire hallway (from the ceiling). The very best DFA least invocation has to be Endure Elements though. That way I can blast without even bothering where my allies are. I don't need special feats to fire into a melee and ensure I don't accidentally EB someone, because I can just breath fire over thataway instead.

Detect Magic at will also takes some of the challenge out of search rolls, so even though I don't have search, I can tell people to keep looking (even though he gave us a cloak with "Nystul's Magical Aura" once). I am loving my DFA though. I'm not sure that I'll craft, because I don't want to lose out on the XP, but it is a neat idea for my Lock side.

JeminiZero
2008-04-28, 09:16 AM
10. Charm. You're everybody's friend--As long as they have a poor Will save.

Warlocks get that too.




I think that the DFA does the Warlock's job better. Ultimately, the Warlock is best if you're doing battlefield control, such as with chilling tentacles, the cone shape, and the force push (don't know their real names, AFB).


The Warlock also excels at utility actually, Imbue Items, limitless Shatter, and a Bag of Holding full of corpses.



(who needs that stupid utterdark cone, anyway?).


The stuff that comes out of the Bag of Holding Full of Corpses? Any Undead Party Members you might have?

AmberVael
2008-04-28, 09:28 AM
Having played both, I personally prefer Warlocks to Dragonfire Adepts.
Why?
Customization.
Frankly, with the way Dragonfire Adept is set up, it's downright obnoxious to try and change around what they do, what they're supposed to be, or anything about them. You have to choose a certain number of breath effects, and a certain number of invocations. You have to be related to dragons. You have to use a reflex save breath weapon in a line or a cone.
Warlock doesn't really have these restrictions. A warlock could focus on damage, has the templates and versatility to change around his eldritch blast in many more ways than an adept can. They can choose to focus on eldritch blast, invocations, or both. You could make them a ranged, melee, or arcanist type character. There are a ton of ways to explain their abilties, because they are mostly left vague.

In the end, maybe Dragonfire Adept is more effective at what it does.
At what it does. It can't do anything else.
Warlock can. Thus, I choose Warlock.
Oh, and why did no one mention Dark Discorporation in their list of invocations? Is perfect flying, immunity to targeted spells, abilities, and weapon damage, and a nauseating swarm attack all in one invocation somehow bad?
Not to mention the +6 dex and charisma bonus deflection mod...

Craig1f
2008-04-28, 09:42 AM
Having played both, I personally prefer Warlocks to Dragonfire Adepts.
Why?
Customization.
Frankly, with the way Dragonfire Adept is set up, it's downright obnoxious to try and change around what they do, what they're supposed to be, or anything about them. You have to choose a certain number of breath effects, and a certain number of invocations. You have to be related to dragons. You have to use a reflex save breath weapon in a line or a cone.
Warlock doesn't really have these restrictions. A warlock could focus on damage, has the templates and versatility to change around his eldritch blast in many more ways than an adept can. They can choose to focus on eldritch blast, invocations, or both. You could make them a ranged, melee, or arcanist type character. There are a ton of ways to explain their abilties, because they are mostly left vague.

In the end, maybe Dragonfire Adept is more effective at what it does.
At what it does. It can't do anything else.
Warlock can. Thus, I choose Warlock.
Oh, and why did no one mention Dark Discorporation in their list of invocations? Is perfect flying, immunity to targeted spells, abilities, and weapon damage, and a nauseating swarm attack all in one invocation somehow bad?
Not to mention the +6 dex and charisma bonus deflection mod...

I agree with this. DFA is better out of the box. It's very good for new players, who are excited at the prospect of being a dragon, and can't be expected to figure out how to make magical items. Also, having Con as their primary stat to raise their attack DC, they tend to have more HP on average than a Barbarian that pumps his STR instead of his CON. For a new player, this is good, since they won't get killed as easily. When I was new, I was VERY attached to my characters, because they were more difficult to make. Now that I can throw a new character together in 30 minutes, I don't get as upset if I lose one.

Warlocks are easier to customize, and have better PrC options. Eldritch Disciple is a lot of fun, as is hellfire warlock. Making items can be cool. But I get sick of playing a demonic character. Warlocks, without the fluff, seem like super-heroes to me. They have a strong set of skills that they can use non-stop.

Edit: I'd argue that the DFA is better to play the first time. But after you've played it once, it's no fun to play again, because there aren't many different ways to build it that are any good. So after you've played it once, you probably never play one again.

On the other hand, you can build a Warlock a few different ways. So it might actually be worth playing one more than once. There are at least a couple builds that are pretty good. You can be a blaster, glaive-lock, UMD-lock, battlefield controller, etc. You can get at least 3 or so decently fun builds to play, that are sufficiently different from each other to get a fun playing experience.

Chronos
2008-04-28, 02:50 PM
Plus, they make great pets, which a warlock never gets thanks to stupid rules. (I'm not bitter...)You do know, do you not, that warlocks are eligible to take Obtain Familiar (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Obtain_Familiar,) at 3rd level? The feat does not require spellcasting, just "arcane caster level 3rd", which warlocks have.

DrowVampyre
2008-04-28, 09:07 PM
I've never played a DFA, but they look awesome. I've played a Warlock and loved it, though. Given that, I'm not going to say which is stronger or anything. However...all the p[eople talking about free Identify on a DFA as an advantage, let's not forget the MIC gives us the Artificer's Monocle...which lets you use Detect Magic as Identify, provided you have a minute or so...which means Warlocks, for the low cost of 1,500 gp (I think), get free Identify too...