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Admiral Squish
2008-01-23, 11:27 AM
Can you play one? If so, what is the LA on that? Can they do spells? Or would they have to have natural spell to cast as all? How about vermin? How would you figure LA on that, too? Are dire animals available, too? How about dinosaurs? What about horrid animals? Why don't druids just prepare maximum of this every day, so nature could fight back on even terms with mankind?

Rift_Wolf
2008-01-23, 11:38 AM
iirc, you can't play an awakened animal as it'd be too cumbersome. I guess they could, technically, gain class levels. The problem with awakening all animals means their animal instincts to find food (ie: hunt) would be confused by the fact their food is now sentient and they understand this. Imagine if the Lion King didn't just glaze over the fact the lions food was living, thinking and intelligent.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-23, 11:45 AM
iirc, you can't play an awakened animal as it'd be too cumbersome. I guess they could, technically, gain class levels. The problem with awakening all animals means their animal instincts to find food (ie: hunt) would be confused by the fact their food is now sentient and they understand this. Imagine if the Lion King didn't just glaze over the fact the lions food was living, thinking and intelligent.

Alright, then, why not jut do it to trees, then? We've all seen what that can do to even the most formidable strongholds. (See: the march on Isengard)

Adumbration
2008-01-23, 12:01 PM
Personally, I can see nothing wrong with it. I've often dreamed of playing a druid who fills up each day with Awakened spell and casts it on everything in sight.

InkEyes
2008-01-23, 12:07 PM
There's nothing stopping you from making an awakened animal. This (http://watermark.drivethrustuff.com/pdf_previews/11947-sample.pdf) PDF says the LA is same as the base creature +1. You just have to remember that there are certain limiting factors like lack of hands, and being a talking animal (that stands out in most towns).

Edit-It's also important to point out that just because the animal is friendly towards its awakener doesn't mean they're compelled to put their lives on the line for the Druid's Awakened Animal Army.

sikyon
2008-01-23, 12:28 PM
Personally, I can see nothing wrong with it. I've often dreamed of playing a druid who fills up each day with Awakened spell and casts it on everything in sight.

Hello chaotic neutral.

Use-activated ring would be 206 000 GP.

Level 20 druid, 20 wisdom would be +17 will save. Throw in 4 more slots worth of bonus (other) +7 items, different bonuses like sacred, luck, insight, profane bonus and a +10 resistance item for a total of 490 000 GP.

That would give your Level 20 Druid a total of a +55 will save. Given that you can basically take 20, you can awaken a 65 HD creature, and quite a few of them each day. Just imagine the possibilities.

However, you'd basically have to make the plants that big. You could use your normal spell slots to cast plant growth repeatedly each day, until you got a forest of epic proportions. Then go around awakening the thing, and go take back nature.

Craig1f
2008-01-23, 01:16 PM
Personally, I can see nothing wrong with it. I've often dreamed of playing a druid who fills up each day with Awakened spell and casts it on everything in sight.

Isn't the casting time 24 hours?

Fhaolan
2008-01-23, 01:22 PM
There are no offical WotC rules for how to handle Awakened Animals as PCs. There's technically nothing wrong with it, but it's not handled very well in RAW.

The base rules just don't handle non-humanoid PCs without a lot of houserulling. Worgs, for instance are intelligent enough to take class levels, but what happens if they take levels in Wizard? The way Natural Spell is written, the feat doesn't cover this situation. Are they forced to take Still Spell, to remove somantic components? Do they have *different* somantic components that are possible for their physionomy? They are natural creatures, not magically produced, so how does that affect things? If they can learn how to do this without special feats or whatever, can they teach this to other creatures, such as Awakened Animals?

Even if you go non-spellcasting, you're dealing with a limited list of skills and feats that are appropriate for non-humanoid creatures. Could a blink dog take ranks in any kind of Crafting?

Beyond Awakened Animals and naturally intelligent non-humanoids, there's also the fun 00 roll on the Reincarnate table. Some DMs (like myself) get rather... creative. I've got a fighter/rogue squirrel running around in one of my games right now thanks to a 00 roll on the Reincarnate table.

And then you have animal companions, familiars, and the paladin's warhorse. Some of these creatures are also intelligent enough to take class levels, but that intelligence is dependant on another creature's class features... ??? I actually came up with this for an NPC I built. It was a half-ogre sorcerer. Had all the intelligence of a glass of water. His rat familiar, however, was considerably smarter, and realized that the only thing keeping him sentient was this moron spellcaster. It was desperately trying to find some way to keep itself intelligent after the inevitable death of the walking speedbump, so it was trying, and failing, to take it's own class levels in Wizard and to turn itself into it's own familiar.

Adumbration
2008-01-23, 01:47 PM
Isn't the casting time 24 hours?

Awww, yet another dream destroyed. :(

Blackadder
2008-01-23, 01:54 PM
Well you could still cast it quickened I suppose, only need a 9th level spell slot for it.

Craig1f
2008-01-23, 02:05 PM
And I wonder how they expect a wild animal to sit still for 24 hours while you cast it. Maybe there is an implication that once you begin casting, the animal is somehow paralyzed or sedated, or just "knows" that its best interest is to sit still for 24 hours.

That does seem like a cool spell though. You can't use the animal as an animal companion though. I sort of envision the following scenario.

A Druid hits level 11. He really loves his current animal companion, a wolf, who has been loyal to him. But the Druid also has dreams of power, and wants an overpowered fleshraker as an animal companion now. The Druid doesn't want to just abandon his wolf, so he casts Awaken on it. Now the wolf is his friend, as an actual equal, and member of the party. The wolf can do what it wants, but still regards the Druid as a friend. The Druid doesn't have to feel like he abandoned the Wolf anymore.

Tavenknaughtlin
2008-01-23, 02:07 PM
Worgs, for instance are intelligent enough to take class levels, but what happens if they take levels in Wizard? The way Natural Spell is written, the feat doesn't cover this situation. Are they forced to take Still Spell, to remove somantic components? Do they have *different* somantic components that are possible for their physionomy?


The feat Surrogate Spellcasting from Savage Species allows beastly and non-humanoid creatures cast spells. They replace words and hand movements with growls/barks/screechs and waving their paw/claw/fin around.

I wish they had rules for Awakened Animals as well. I've been itching to play a Deinonychus Warblade and go Jurassic Park on everyone.

daggaz
2008-01-23, 02:09 PM
You take natural spell as a PC because you arent used to casting in your new animal form. You grew up and trained and gained class levels as a humanoid. The feat lets you cast in whatever new forms you suddenly master.

By that reasoning, an awakened squirrel that gains class levels as a squirrel will not need natural spell to cast in squirrel form. Only if he changes into other animals (or a human!).

sikyon
2008-01-23, 02:12 PM
Well you could still cast it quickened I suppose, only need a 9th level spell slot for it.

I guess the item gets abit more expensive then...

kamikasei
2008-01-23, 02:31 PM
By that reasoning, an awakened squirrel that gains class levels as a squirrel will not need natural spell to cast in squirrel form. Only if he changes into other animals (or a human!).

For a second I parsed that as saying squirrels should take levels in Squirrel and get a Squirrel's casting progression... :smallredface:

TroyXavier
2008-01-23, 02:46 PM
Personally I think the two hit dice you have to take when awakened kills any interest I might have in it.

Mewtarthio
2008-01-23, 04:39 PM
Well you could still cast it quickened I suppose, only need a 9th level spell slot for it.

I don't think you can Quicken a spell with a twenty-four hour casting time. Otherwise, you get into all sorts of nasty implications (quickened geas = instant victory, no save).

No, what you need is Epic Spellcasting. Take a look at origin of species: achaierai (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/originOfSpeciesAchaierai.htm). This spell establishes the precedent that a +33 DC to the Fortify seed can give a creature an SLA on par with the achaierai's "Black Cloud" ability 3/day. The trick is to reverse-engineer those rules and figure out what it takes to give a creature the ability to cast intensified awaken 1/day.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-23, 04:54 PM
There is Mass Awaken in the Spell Compendium. It's an 8th level spell, but I plan on using it at some point if I ever get to run epic to make an entire forest protect my keep. :smallbiggrin:

Chronos
2008-01-23, 05:55 PM
The other mitigating factor on Awaken is that it has an XP cost. 250 XP isn't going to break your character, but it's enough that you don't want to be doing it every day.

Fhaolan, I love the story about the half-ogre's familiar.

Stephen_E
2008-01-23, 07:20 PM
Personally I think the two hit dice you have to take when awakened kills any interest I might have in it.


You do realise that those two HD are 2 levels, so basically when you awaken an animal it instantly gains two class levels. They're not bonus HD as per an animal companion.

The biggest decision the DM has to make is how to handle unarmed strikes, ala Monks. If you allow an awakened animal to do unarmed attacks just the same as a humanoid monk then Monk will always be the class of choice, since it gives them all their natural attacks as well as all a monks iterative monk attacks (natural weapons don't get iterative attacks).

For most awakened animal people are likely to take the best classes from both practicality and fluff IMHO would be Ranger, Barbarian, Scout, and for creatures with less than 3 HD (before been awakened) Sorceror and Druid are reasonable choices. Fighter levels are OK. Oddly enough someone was just asking about a 3.0 prestige class that would suit well fluff wise (although the class needed a bit of boosting) Tribal Protector (Sword&Fist).

Stephen

Stephen_E
2008-01-23, 07:41 PM
iirc, you can't play an awakened animal as it'd be too cumbersome. I guess they could, technically, gain class levels. The problem with awakening all animals means their animal instincts to find food (ie: hunt) would be confused by the fact their food is now sentient and they understand this. Imagine if the Lion King didn't just glaze over the fact the lions food was living, thinking and intelligent.

Why would the awakened animal be confused. Humans have no problems with killing and eating animals, and humans are intelligent and sentient. I'd imagine that the awakened animals would take one of the same paths as humans take -
a) "We're special" otherwise known as exceptionalism, where the rules don't apply to you. And lets be honest, in this case they are special, since the other animals are unlikely to have the awakened template.
b) "Ignore the brick wall in front of your face". An old favourite. You simply deny inconvient truths.
c) Religion. The classic "God gave us domain over everything" works wonders for justifying any and all actions against others.

Stephen

A.Sondergaard
2008-01-23, 08:03 PM
You do realise that those two HD are 2 levels, so basically when you awaken an animal it instantly gains two class levels. They're not bonus HD as per an animal companion.Uh. I don't think it works that way. I always thought that unless specifically stated, effects that granted extra HD treated those HD as HD of the creature's type, though...I don't have a book with me, or access to the SRD, (at work, d20srd blocked by websense, giantitp not so much, go figure...) so I can't really verify that.

The biggest decision the DM has to make is how to handle unarmed strikes, ala Monks....Rules are pretty clear on this, you can't FoB with a natural weapon, such as a bite or claw, as they are not specail monk weapons. A wolf monk, for example, could do a bite attack at his highest bast attack bonus for 1d6+strength and a half, or a full attack with with an unarmed strike/manufactured weapon, with a bite at -5 for 1d6+half strength, or a flurry of blows, with only special monk weapons.

That is to say, a wolf monk would have the unarmed strike ability for a monk of it's level, which is a separate attack from the bite.

Stephen_E
2008-01-23, 08:33 PM
Uh. I don't think it works that way. I always thought that unless specifically stated, effects that granted extra HD treated those HD as HD of the creature's type, though...I don't have a book with me, or access to the SRD, (at work, d20srd blocked by websense, giantitp not so much, go figure...) so I can't really verify that.

When you gain HD, unless otherwise specified, you gain a level. Any sentient creature (defined in DnD as 3+ int) can take class levels. Since at the same time as you gain those 2 HD you become sentient, you have the option of taking them as class levels.



Rules are pretty clear on this, you can't FoB with a natural weapon, such as a bite or claw, as they are not specail monk weapons. A wolf monk, for example, could do a bite attack at his highest bast attack bonus for 1d6+strength and a half, or a full attack with with an unarmed strike/manufactured weapon, with a bite at -5 for 1d6+half strength, or a flurry of blows, with only special monk weapons.

That is to say, a wolf monk would have the unarmed strike ability for a monk of it's level, which is a separate attack from the bite.

That's my point. If you allow a animal to make unarmed attacks as a Monk, which the rules support, it's the uberclass for awakened animals wanting to melee. Allowing a wolf, or worse a tiger, to make a full monk unarmed attack regime and then make their natural attacks, at -5, is awesome compared to been stuck with just their batural attacks, with no bonus iterative attacks regardless of how high their level.

Fluffwise you can argue that the combat forms that monks teacj rely on you having a humanoid body to use effectively, and take attack/damage penalties if used by a non-humanoid. Without this you're stuck with the simple fact that all non-weapon weilding awakened animals should take Monk levels from a power perspective.

Stephen

Admiral Squish
2008-01-23, 09:06 PM
There's nothing stopping you from making an awakened animal. This (http://watermark.drivethrustuff.com/pdf_previews/11947-sample.pdf) PDF says the LA is same as the base creature +1. You just have to remember that there are certain limiting factors like lack of hands, and being a talking animal (that stands out in most towns).

Edit-It's also important to point out that just because the animal is friendly towards its awakener doesn't mean they're compelled to put their lives on the line for the Druid's Awakened Animal Army.

This doesn't answer the question of what an awakened animal's LA is. HD? CR? Both? Also, your link doesn't work.


A Druid hits level 11. He really loves his current animal companion, a wolf, who has been loyal to him. But the Druid also has dreams of power, and wants an overpowered fleshraker as an animal companion now. The Druid doesn't want to just abandon his wolf, so he casts Awaken on it. Now the wolf is his friend, as an actual equal, and member of the party. The wolf can do what it wants, but still regards the Druid as a friend. The Druid doesn't have to feel like he abandoned the Wolf anymore.

He could treat the time as an animal companion as a 'job interview' of sorts, seeing if they're good enough to be a boon to the world with their newly-granted intelligence.



You do realise that those two HD are 2 levels, so basically when you awaken an animal it instantly gains two class levels. They're not bonus HD as per an animal companion.

Pretty sure it doesn't work like that. Sorry.

New questions: Armor: would it be treated like barding? Weapons: Can natural weapons be enchanted like weapons? I know there's a few artificer things like that, but those might only be for warforged. Can you awaken a swarm with a sort of hive-mind? Would awakened giant ants still feel the call of the hive-mind? Can one sentient creature allow another to ride it? If so, why don't halflings ride on the shoulders of their larger companions? Can you apply more templates to an awakened creature? Would a wolverine or badger still have the rage racial trait? If so, just think about a fighter advancement, fully optimized, with an untimed rage ability whenever they take damage. Could a monkey or ape still use weapons? Could an awakened animal pose as an animal companion for a druid to further their own schemes? Wouldn't the most sensible feat choice for a awakened animal be Mage Hand (from complete arcane) Which gives you mage hand, open/close, and Tenser's floating disk as SLA's? Why don't they have giant crabs in D&D?

Wow, that's a lot of questions.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-01-23, 09:15 PM
Frankly, I'd be more interested in playing an Awakened Cabbage or an awakened olive just for the fun of 'em. :smallwink:

A.Sondergaard
2008-01-23, 09:27 PM
When you gain HD, unless otherwise specified, you gain a level.Normally, you gain HD as fuction of gaining a level, not the other way around. Effects that just tack on HD seldom ever say what type they're supposed to be, save for a very few cleric spells, and bardic music. To say that HD of a non-specified type are class levels is a rather large leap in logic, don't you think?

Mewtarthio
2008-01-23, 09:37 PM
Armor: would it be treated like barding?

I'd say treat it like custom armor for oddly-shaped PCs (I forget the exact markup, but it's slightly more expensive). The exception is if the Awakened Animal is of a species that normally gets sent into battle (such as a warhorse, or any horse really), in which case they wear the same armor as their nonsapient counterparts.


Weapons: Can natural weapons be enchanted like weapons? I know there's a few artificer things like that, but those might only be for warforged.

A thousand monks screaming for mercy say "No." A nice DM might let you wear an amulet of mighty fists and get that enchanted.


Can you awaken a swarm with a sort of hive-mind?

The awaken spell targets a single creature, so swarms are immune. That would be pretty cool, though (if unacceptable as a PC).


Would awakened giant ants still feel the call of the hive-mind?

Giant Ants are Vermin, so the point is moot. Vermin are considered mindless and cannot be targetted by awaken. Still, since WotC knows that a druid surrounded by armies of insects is an undeniably awesome concept, they've provided an Animal Companion Variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a) to fill the gap. Still no awaken vermin, though.


Can one sentient creature allow another to ride it?

Have you never seen a maiden riding a unicorn before?


If so, why don't halflings ride on the shoulders of their larger companions?

A human being isn't a very suitable mount for a halfling. You could carry a halfling on your shoulders, but I wouldn't let him use the Ride skill or any mounted combat feats (since you're a biped and all).


Can you apply more templates to an awakened creature?

You can always apply more templates. Always. There is no such thing as enough templates.


Would a wolverine or badger still have the rage racial trait?

Yes. Awakened animals retain their usual abilities.


If so, just think about a fighter advancement, fully optimized, with an untimed rage ability whenever they take damage.

An Awakened Badger has 2 Animal HD, Small size, -2 Strength, and +4 Con. How is that in any way optimized? An Awakened Dire Badger is a bit nicer, with Medium size, +4 Strength, and +8 Con but those 5 RHD would have been better spent taking actual Barbarian levels. An Awakened Badger still can't end its rage prematurely; it fights until it can fight no more.


Could a monkey or ape still use weapons?

They have prehensile hands, so sure. Somebody's bound to try standing on one leg and using four swords at once (one in each hand, one in a foot, and one in a tail), but aside from that looking really, really silly, nothing suggests the monkey has the coordination of a Thri-Keen. Translation: They fail oh so very miserably.


Could an awakened animal pose as an animal companion for a druid to further their own schemes?

That would prove difficult at best, and impossible at worst. At best, you're attempting to fool a Wis-based caster with a strong connection to nature. At worst, the same link that lets the Druid handle his/her companion lets the Druid tell the difference between a companion and an imposter.


Wouldn't the most sensible feat choice for a awakened animal be Mage Hand (from complete arcane) Which gives you mage hand, open/close, and Tenser's floating disk as SLA's?

How often?


Why don't they have giant crabs in D&D?

*shudder* They do. Oh dear PELOR, they do. Just ask Fax Celestis. Wait, never mind: Don't! As you value your sanity and faith in the workings of this universe, pursue this line of thinking no further! I implore you!

Forrestfire
2008-01-23, 09:39 PM
I don't think you can Quicken a spell with a twenty-four hour casting time.

No, you cant, but you can use the Rapid Spell feat on a 24-hour casting time spell to make the casting time 1 round

Mewtarthio
2008-01-23, 09:48 PM
No, you cant, but you can use the Rapid Spell feat on a 24-hour casting time spell to make the casting time 1 round

I just looked up the feat. It can reduce a twenty-four hour casting time to a single hour, but it can't make it any faster than that.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-23, 10:13 PM
I'd say treat it like custom armor for oddly-shaped PCs (I forget the exact markup, but it's slightly more expensive). The exception is if the Awakened Animal is of a species that normally gets sent into battle (such as a warhorse, or any horse really), in which case they wear the same armor as their nonsapient counterparts.
Aww, man. That would have saved me cash.



A thousand monks screaming for mercy say "No." A nice DM might let you wear an amulet of mighty fists and get that enchanted.

Natural Weapon Augmentation, personal, lesser, and greater, disagree with you. They're in races of eberron, and they're artificer infusions. However, they don't give an enhancement bonus, and cannot be permanency'd. However, Magic Fang can.



The awaken spell targets a single creature, so swarms are immune. That would be pretty cool, though (if unacceptable as a PC).
Curses! Foiled by WOTC once more!



Giant Ants are Vermin, so the point is moot. Vermin are considered mindless and cannot be targetted by awaken. Still, since WotC knows that a druid surrounded by armies of insects is an undeniably awesome concept, they've provided an Animal Companion Variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a) to fill the gap. Still no awaken vermin, though.
Another curse.



Have you never seen a maiden riding a unicorn before?
I can't honestly say I have.:smalltongue:



A human being isn't a very suitable mount for a halfling. You could carry a halfling on your shoulders, but I wouldn't let him use the Ride skill or any mounted combat feats (since you're a biped and all).
I mean, would their intelligence reject being ridden? I personally can't be guided with the knees of the person on my shoulders. It doesn't work well.



You can always apply more templates. Always. There is no such thing as enough templates.
What about a half-dragon half-fiend half-celestial ghost lich lycanthrope awakened badger?



Yes. Awakened animals retain their usual abilities.

An Awakened Badger has 2 Animal HD, Small size, -2 Strength, and +4 Con. How is that in any way optimized? An Awakened Dire Badger is a bit nicer, with Medium size, +4 Strength, and +8 Con but those 5 RHD would have been better spent taking actual Barbarian levels. An Awakened Badger still can't end its rage prematurely; it fights until it can fight no more.
The badger's rage is actually more powerful than a barb's, for the same cost, lasts until the enemy's dead,



They have prehensile hands, so sure. Somebody's bound to try standing on one leg and using four swords at once (one in each hand, one in a foot, and one in a tail), but aside from that looking really, really silly, nothing suggests the monkey has the coordination of a Thri-Keen. Translation: They fail oh so very miserably.
Not quite as cool as other things.



That would prove difficult at best, and impossible at worst. At best, you're attempting to fool a Wis-based caster with a strong connection to nature. At worst, the same link that lets the Druid handle his/her companion lets the Druid tell the difference between a companion and an imposter.
Sense motive is Cha-based. And the disguise check would probably get a +10, since they don't even know which animal their companion is going to be, just a representative of X race.



How often?
only 1/day, but I think there's more feats that can give you more uses of an SLA.



*shudder* They do. Oh dear PELOR, they do. Just ask Fax Celestis. Wait, never mind: Don't! As you value your sanity and faith in the workings of this universe, pursue this line of thinking no further! I implore you!
I must! FOR SCIENCE!

Stephen_E
2008-01-23, 10:17 PM
Normally, you gain HD as fuction of gaining a level, not the other way around. Effects that just tack on HD seldom ever say what type they're supposed to be, save for a very few cleric spells, and bardic music. To say that HD of a non-specified type are class levels is a rather large leap in logic, don't you think?

What spells/effects are there that give you additional HD.

I'm aware of Animal Companions and Special Mounts, which both specifically say they're bonus HD, and say what you gain from the normal level advancement. HD as a plural term is considered synonomous with chracter levels by definition. So unless otherwise specified I can't see any basis for not allowing the character to take these as class levels. If you say they aren't then basically you're saying they shouldn't add to the characters level. If you want to play it that way it works even better for the animal.

If you want to make them racial HD then you must allow them to be taken as Class levels instead since the only reason that animals are restricted to racial levels is that they aren't sentient. If they're sentient they can advance by class levels instead. The books make that quite clear. Sentient Magical Beasts can take class levels. Non-sentient ones can't.

Other issues. If you make a lateral thinking artificer/weaponsmith who likes a challenge you can give them ranged weapons, even if they travel on all fours and have no hands. Mount a repeating arbalest/crossbow on their back, with a built in elohana's quiver so that they only have to top up occasionally, and basically build it so that they can **** it bebring up their rear leg to operate the cocking lever (like when a Dog or Cat scratchs) and a trigger set for a front paw to reach up and set off. If you add the ability to build in a strength bonus (which is actually logical) is becomes quite a nice ranged weapon. I'd suggest the Str bonus is x1for a Light Crossbow, and x1.5 for a Hv crossbow. The Hv and Lt mostly refer to the cocking tension been set higher or lower for speed of reload. A light crossbow is constructed to be cocked by a single pull, which from a strong character can be set with a much higher tension, while a Hv Crossbow is constructed to use several movements via some sort of racheting mechanism, but again with higher str the ractheting can be set to produce a higer tension for the same amount of moves.

Stephen

DementedFellow
2008-01-23, 10:32 PM
Am I the only one who thinks of an Awakened Giant Crab and immediately thinks Garthim?
http://habidabad.com/images/garthim_2.JPG

Admiral Squish
2008-01-23, 10:35 PM
Am I the only one who thinks of an Awakened Giant Crab and immediately thinks Garthim?
http://habidabad.com/images/garthim_2.JPG

You were, until a moment ago.

Stephen_E
2008-01-23, 10:35 PM
A human being isn't a very suitable mount for a halfling. You could carry a halfling on your shoulders, but I wouldn't let him use the Ride skill or any mounted combat feats (since you're a biped and all).

See the 1st sentance of Ride in the PHB.
It specifically mentions bipedal mounts. You take a -5 to your Ride skill.
People don't do it it because -
a) They don't think of it.
b) Most PC's aren't going to be happy about be ridden by another PC, with all the inevitable bad jokes.
c) You have all the problems of normal mounted combat, but in addition you get conflict between the 2 players over what they're doing.




Could an awakened animal pose as an animal companion for a druid to further their own schemes?




That would prove difficult at best, and impossible at worst. At best, you're attempting to fool a Wis-based caster with a strong connection to nature. At worst, the same link that lets the Druid handle his/her companion lets the Druid tell the difference between a companion and an imposter.


Yeah, the kicker is empathic link. Even the best bluff in the world ain't going to get past the lack of empathic link. Maybe if the Druid has mediocre Wisdom and Int of 8 or less......, but otherwise no.

Stephen

Chronos
2008-01-23, 10:36 PM
If you want to make them racial HD then you must allow them to be taken as Class levels instead since the only reason that animals are restricted to racial levels is that they aren't sentient.So why do smarter creatures (like gnolls and bugbears) have any racial HD? And why do some sentient creatures (like Blink Dogs, for instance) even have their advancement given in RHD instead of class levels?


They have prehensile hands, so sure. Somebody's bound to try standing on one leg and using four swords at once (one in each hand, one in a foot, and one in a tail), but aside from that looking really, really silly, nothing suggests the monkey has the coordination of a Thri-Keen. Translation: They fail oh so very miserably.A book I was reading recently* had a scene where an awakened orangutan swings on a rope towards an enemy, while wielding a heavy pike. While the book didn't specify, I pictured him holding onto the rope with his right hands, and two-handing the pike with his left hands.


*A cookie to anyone who can guess which one

Irreverent Fool
2008-01-23, 10:37 PM
I must! FOR SCIENCE!

You will have been better off not knowing.


Science, already oppressive with its shocking revelations, will perhaps be the ultimate exterminator of our human species -- if separate species we be -- for its reserve of unguessed horrors could never be borne by mortal brains if loosed upon the world.

Stephen_E
2008-01-23, 11:06 PM
If you want to make them racial HD then you must allow them to be taken as Class levels instead since the only reason that animals are restricted to racial levels is that they aren't sentient.



So why do smarter creatures (like gnolls and bugbears) have any racial HD? And why do some sentient creatures (like Blink Dogs, for instance) even have their advancement given in RHD instead of class levels?


Monsters with racial HD have racial HD because they're designed that way. Their racial levels, including their lev adj, are where they get all their racial abilities from.

After those set levels you can advance by race type levels or by class type levels. The writers tend to assume that humanoids will advance by class levels and non-humanoids by race types, but the rules don't specify this as a restriction last I looked. The monster advancement rules make it quite clear that even things like monsters can continue to advance by race type levels if they wish. The only restriction against taking class levels I can ever recall seeing (and I don't have it it front of me) is that you must be sentient (Int 3+) to take class levels.

Basically if you're playing it as a PC it's going to be gaining class levels, at which point I think your logic fails if you're trying to say "these additional HD/levels have to be racial levels, and these don't" when there is no text saying differentiating the levels.

Stephen

DementedFellow
2008-01-23, 11:22 PM
I think the 2 HD added to an awakened creature is so they won't die easily. I mean you shelled out 250 xp, and so it would just be unfair if your awakened cat ends up getting rent in twain the first round of battle.

I don't think these are levels or classes, merely racial HD.

I do believe that the HD would be equal to level though. so let's say you had a level one cat 1/2 d8 hit dice. When you add the two HD per the spell, it would be 1.5 d8 HD. And I would say that as soon as they reach level 4 xp wise, then they can take a class as a regular pc. If i heard another person saying that there was a reason why they could take the PC classes sooner, then I would totally be for it, though.

Stephen_E
2008-01-24, 12:33 AM
I think the 2 HD added to an awakened creature is so they won't die easily. I mean you shelled out 250 xp, and so it would just be unfair if your awakened cat ends up getting rent in twain the first round of battle.

I don't think these are levels or classes, merely racial HD.

I do believe that the HD would be equal to level though. so let's say you had a level one cat 1/2 d8 hit dice. When you add the two HD per the spell, it would be 1.5 d8 HD. And I would say that as soon as they reach level 4 xp wise, then they can take a class as a regular pc. If i heard another person saying that there was a reason why they could take the PC classes sooner, then I would totally be for it, though.

1) When the rules say "gaining HD" and "gaining levels" they generally mean the same thing. The PHB definition pretty much says this, and if you go through the books and SRD this happens all the time.

2) Racial HD ARE levels. They're levels in the race type.


Increasing Hit Dice
As its Hit Dice increase, a creature’s attack bonuses and saving throw modifiers might improve. It gains more feats and skills, depending on its type, as shown on Table: Creature Improvement by Type.

Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type.


A table follows with the various racial levels and what they give, but I haven't worked out how to cut/paste tables. Size increase occur from racial HD/levels, as indicated by the specific monster entry.

Stephen

Admiral Squish
2008-01-24, 12:51 AM
Wouldn't an awakened rat be, like, mobility central? They have tiny size, a climb speed, a swim speed and these skills, taken from the SRD.


Rats have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks, and a +8 racial bonus on Balance, Climb, and Swim checks. A rat can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. A rat uses its Dexterity modifier instead of its Strength modifier for Climb and Swim checks. A rat has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

Imagine a sneaky spellcaster. Size is too much of a hindrance on damage for a rogue. Warlock would make up for it's damage-dealing lack and size problems. Though maybe just plain wizard would be better. Though he'd be tempted to get a cat familiar, just to rub it in the poor thing's face.

Give it ranks in gourmet chef, and you can act out Ratattoile! Hehe. That was totally dominate person, that thing he was doing with the hair.

Fhaolan
2008-01-24, 12:54 AM
This doesn't answer the question of what an awakened animal's LA is. HD? CR? Both? Also, your link doesn't work.

The link worked for me. It's a third-party document that has the results of the awaken spell in a template form. They estimated that the LA is +1 for Awakened Animals. I'm not sure that's accurate though, as each animal has it's own advantages and disadvantages, so I'm not sure a blanket +1 works.


New questions: Armor: would it be treated like barding?

Yes. Since barding is specified as being armor for quadreped non-humanoids, quadraped non-humanoid armor is by extension barding.


Weapons: Can natural weapons be enchanted like weapons? I know there's a few artificer things like that, but those might only be for warforged.


I beleive so, but I can't remember the exact procedure.


Can you awaken a swarm with a sort of hive-mind? Would awakened giant ants still feel the call of the hive-mind?


I don't beleive the spell works on vermin, although I could be wrong there. Usually they draw the line between 'animal' and 'vermin' types.


Can one sentient creature allow another to ride it? If so, why don't halflings ride on the shoulders of their larger companions?


You mean yours don't? If you can use the Ride skill on a paladin's warhorse with an Int of 6, there's nothing stopping you from using it on any other creatures. Of course, they need to be trained to *accept* riding commands. You can't just jump up on a horse and start wiggling up there. The horse has to be trained to understand the commands. :smallsmile:


Can you apply more templates to an awakened creature?


All that matters is whether the base creature is 'valid' for the spell. Which means that when the spell is cast, it has to be an animal, I believe.


Would a wolverine or badger still have the rage racial trait? If so, just think about a fighter advancement, fully optimized, with an untimed rage ability whenever they take damage.


Yep.


Could a monkey or ape still use weapons?


That appears to be valid, as one of the standard Druid wildshape tricks is an ape that can use weapons.


Could an awakened animal pose as an animal companion for a druid to further their own schemes?


I believe there is some way to get an magical beast as an animal companion, with the right PrC. I assume an awakened animal would qualify for this.

Oh, do you mean the creature *pretends* to be an animal companion, trying to fool the druid themselves? I guess it would be some insanely high DC on a bluff check, especially if the druid has had animal companions before.


Wouldn't the most sensible feat choice for a awakened animal be Mage Hand (from complete arcane) Which gives you mage hand, open/close, and Tenser's floating disk as SLA's?


Not familiar with this feat. If it's as you way, it would make sense.


Why don't they have giant crabs in D&D?


Oh, yes they do. :smallbiggrin:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-24, 01:01 AM
Rat Artificer. When you awaken an animal, it gains 3d6 to int, wis, and cha, so you'd need to roll pretty well on 2 stats, but how awesome would it be to see a rat building a sword?

Adumbration
2008-01-24, 01:02 AM
You could always cast Maximized Awaken for the delicious 18 intelligence.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-24, 01:13 AM
Rat Artificer. When you awaken an animal, it gains 3d6 to int, wis, and cha, so you'd need to roll pretty well on 2 stats, but how awesome would it be to see a rat building a sword?

Or, if the swarm thing works, a whole swarm working together! That would be AWESOME. But not all that good on their own.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-24, 01:16 AM
You could always cast Maximized Awaken for the delicious 18 intelligence.Mmm, that's some good Gouda. I think a bolt of purple DM lightning would happen if I used spontaneous maximize with greater awaken to make a Forrest of Geniuses. I'm still going to try it at some point, though.

Stephen_E
2008-01-24, 01:21 AM
You could always cast Maximized Awaken for the delicious 18 intelligence.


This one is a very debatable trick.
If you are treating the spell as giving a template then I really think the answer has to be it doesn't work. The spell give a single template, no variable involved. It's the same way that casting Maximised Summon Natures ally gives you the maximum number of creatures, not maximum hps for each HD and all their stats.

Also if you decided it did work then the hit points gained from the 2 additional HD should also be maximised, or even better maximise+empowered for 19-27 Int and Wis, + 3+(1d3/2) Cha and hps = 2 maximised dice + 1/2 two rolled dice.

Stephen

Stephen_E
2008-01-24, 01:28 AM
Back to part of the original question.

The ECL of an animal.
From what I've seen looking at various animals and simple magical beasts with 3+ Ints I'd say that generally animals have a lev adj +0. At most +1. Adding the Awaken template would increase that to +1 or +2.

If you're allowing full use of monk abilities/unarmed attacks without penalties you might want to weight the lev adjustment up slightly, i.e. most are +1 rather than most been +0 before awakening.

Stephen

Admiral Squish
2008-01-24, 01:52 AM
AHA! I just looked! The swarm is a subtype of animal! So, in theory, it would count as a single awaken! Not by fluff, though. However, that's a bit steep, six HD for a single awakened beastie. I think I'll stick with an awakened rat, +1 LA, 3HD.

Wait. Stupid fractional HD. Would it be 2 1/4 HD, or 3/4 HD or 2 HD or what?

Irreverent Fool
2008-01-24, 05:16 AM
AHA! I just looked! The swarm is a subtype of animal! So, in theory, it would count as a single awaken! Not by fluff, though. However, that's a bit steep, six HD for a single awakened beastie. I think I'll stick with an awakened rat, +1 LA, 3HD.

Wait. Stupid fractional HD. Would it be 2 1/4 HD, or 3/4 HD or 2 HD or what?

If a creature's HD is 1/4 d8, that is one hit die. So if the creature was advanced to 4 HD, it would have a full 1d8.

DementedFellow
2008-01-24, 05:46 AM
Could someone post the stats for a Giant Crab? I'm jonesing to make a Garthim. My players would love it so much.

BlackMage2549
2008-01-24, 07:29 AM
So much for my dreams of an Awakened Puppy Reaping Mauler.

And I'll have to crush my friend's hopes. He wants to play an Elephant Ninja for the humor of having a Ghost Stepping Elephant Sudden Strike you with it's trunk.

Obrysii
2008-01-24, 07:38 AM
I apologize if my post is redundant, but here goes:


I have, and will continue to allow, Awakened animals in my campaign. They're a staple of fantasy, and to be frank, why not? They are limited by their physical forms - except for apes and monkeys.

And so, this is how I've ruled it: Baseline Awakened animals are LA +0, but you gotta remember the racial HD plus the two from the Awakened spell. So an Awakened Horse would be ECL 4 (before class levels). However, if the animal can handle objects and easily fit into armor, such as an Ape or a Monkey, then it has an LA based on its HD and overall abilities.

In my "modern" campaign, there is an Awakened Ape PC, whom it was decided would be LA +2. That makes him an ECL 6 creature, and as it turns out ... Apes are very similar, statistically, to Centaurs ... which are ECL 6.



Am I the only one who thinks of an Awakened Giant Crab and immediately thinks Garthim?
http://habidabad.com/images/garthim_2.JPG

Actually, I've always wanted to play a Half-Mindflayer Werecrab ...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/obrysii/Dr_Zoidberg.jpg

Rift_Wolf
2008-01-24, 10:18 AM
Just worked something out; If you cast Awaken as maximised on a tree, not only do you get a really strong tree, you get a GENIUS tree. 18 Wisdom, Intelligence and Charisma!
This is how high level druids wile away their evenings. Awakening their gardens so they can have heated and informed debates.

Lochar
2008-01-24, 10:22 AM
Hope they're doing it to saplings, because the Will save for a big tree would be stupidly high.

I think someone around here statted out an intesified Awakened colossal sized tree. It had over a hundred HD, went into Paladin, and used a small continent as it's mount.

Zenos
2008-01-24, 10:31 AM
And having a maximised awakened puppy in a team of barbs and a druid with low INT... Party wiz!

Irreverent Fool
2008-01-24, 10:33 AM
Could someone post the stats for a Giant Crab? I'm jonesing to make a Garthim. My players would love it so much.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a

Ocean is more ancient than the mountains, and freighted with the memories and the dreams of Time. - Lovecraft

RagnaroksChosen
2008-01-24, 11:14 AM
I'd like to start out with saying yaa for awakend animals.

To add to your funny animals that are awakend.

Octupus. With druid levels. Like 10 levels...mmm wild shape.. heh
and that isn't homebrew ... check out I belive FR: Shinning South. Its sweet.

I ususaly just let pcs take the Racial HD's no LA That includes the +2 hd from awakening spell.

InkEyes
2008-01-24, 12:12 PM
This doesn't answer the question of what an awakened animal's LA is. HD? CR? Both? Also, your link doesn't work.
Huh, the link is working fine for me. I believe total LA is HD+LA; animals naturally have no LA, but they do have HD. A wolf has 2 HD, when its awakend it gains a +1 LA and 2 more HD (whether these are new class levels or animal HD is being debated in this thread) so its already a level 5 character.

Edit:
why don't halflings ride on the shoulders of their larger companions?

Our Kender did that all the time with our Minotaur Barbarian

RagnaroksChosen
2008-01-24, 12:39 PM
A wolf has 2 HD, when its awakend it gains a +1 LA and 2 more HD


Where did you get the +1 from?

Admiral Squish
2008-01-24, 12:45 PM
So, more questions: Are there any feats that boost alternative speeds? Would Speed of Thought apply to all modes of movement, or just land speed? What class would an awakened animal favor? Would monkeys be rangers? I think most other sorts would favor spell casting, due to the lack of hands. What was the feat that let you substitute animal movements for arcane casting? Should I just go straight to Natural Spell and hope that works? Just a maximized awaken would make most animals 20 int, crazy wis, and crazy cha, wouldn't it? Would you count ECL by total dice? (I.E, would a 3/4ths HD beastie be ECL 1 or ECL 3?) How awesome would a dragonborn wolf look?

Irreverent Fool
2008-01-24, 01:24 PM
Would you count ECL by total dice? (I.E, would a 3/4ths HD beastie be ECL 1 or ECL 3?)

When adding class levels to a creature with 1 or less HD, you advance the creature like a character, which means you drop whatever racial HD it has along with base saves/attack/skill points and it instead gains those of its class.

Now, after looking at that I really don't think that answers your question... I imagine that a creature with 3 1/4d8s would still be a 3-HD creature, despite the fact that it would have fairly low HP (not factoring in a high Con score). So I'd have to say it would be ECL 3. Of course, assuming this were allowed in my game, as a GM I think I'd make some adjustments if it didn't work out well.

I suppose this is a reason one wouldn't go about awakening small mammals.

Chronos
2008-01-24, 02:49 PM
As I understand it, racial HD are always based on the creature type, and animals get a d8. So if you start with something with 1/2 d8 (a housecat, say) and give it 2 extra HD, the HD it gains are d8s, and the first one replaces the half. So an awakened housecat would have 2d8 + 2*con bonus HP.

Admiral Squish
2008-01-24, 04:22 PM
As I understand it, racial HD are always based on the creature type, and animals get a d8. So if you start with something with 1/2 d8 (a housecat, say) and give it 2 extra HD, the HD it gains are d8s, and the first one replaces the half. So an awakened housecat would have 2d8 + 2*con bonus HP.

it would be 2d10, because they type changed to magical animal.

DementedFellow
2008-01-24, 05:08 PM
As I understand it, racial HD are always based on the creature type, and animals get a d8. So if you start with something with 1/2 d8 (a housecat, say) and give it 2 extra HD, the HD it gains are d8s, and the first one replaces the half. So an awakened housecat would have 2d8 + 2*con bonus HP.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree. Size affects hit dice as well. Which is why I can see a cat having smaller HD than a dog.

I think the 2 extra HD gained would be a racial hit die and they would be 1/2 d8. You just made the animal gain intelligence, you didn't make it grow.

Stephen_E
2008-01-24, 06:18 PM
So, more questions: Are there any feats that boost alternative speeds? Would Speed of Thought apply to all modes of movement, or just land speed? What class would an awakened animal favor? Would monkeys be rangers? I think most other sorts would favor spell casting, due to the lack of hands. What was the feat that let you substitute animal movements for arcane casting? Should I just go straight to Natural Spell and hope that works? Just a maximized awaken would make most animals 20 int, crazy wis, and crazy cha, wouldn't it? Would you count ECL by total dice? (I.E, would a 3/4ths HD beastie be ECL 1 or ECL 3?) How awesome would a dragonborn wolf look?

Speed - Monk speed increases don't specify movement type.

Classes - Ignoring fluff - Monk, Monk and Monk.
Counting fluff - Scout, Barbarian, Ranger, Fighter. For low HD creatures - Druid and Sorceror areworthwhile to consider.
Yes, they don't do melee weapons (although you can rig up crossbow harnesses on the backs of of some animals - I've an early posyt that went into this) but Scout in particular gives you skirmish which works fine for a single natural attack, and spring attack allows you to move away avoiding a full attack, and with the Boots of charging allowing you to chrage as a standard action, you can pounce, full attack, and then move away with Spring Attack. Add in Shock Tropper, using Fighter feats, and you have serious nastiness with pounce animals. Barb gives decent skills, good HD + Rage, but is probably only worth dipping. Ranger is primarily for a missile attack build.

Anything with more than 1 Racial HD suffers as a spellcaster.

Maximised Awaken - !st you don't seem to understand how maximised awaken would work, even if it is allowed. Int would go to 18 (max of 3d6) not 18+2. The 3d5 replaces existing Int. Wisdom is unchanged. Charisma would increase by 3 (instead of 1d3).
2nd - When someone cast Maximised Natures ally III and summons 1d3 Dire Badgers do you give them a) 3 standard Dire Badgers, or b) 3 Standard Dire Badgers with max hit points and max stats (Str 22, Dex 24, Con 26, Wis 20, Char 18, 48hps ).
If you do a) then you can't maximise Awaken. If you do b) go for it. Maximise it as much as you like (but remember for animals Wis doesn't change, and Cha gets a +3).

ECL and HD - I'm not aware of general rules regarding this but I'd be inclined to round 1/2 HD down and higher partials up for ECL purposes. The +2 additional HD give are whole HD. Partial HD are a feature of race design and represent something that doesn't have a full racial HD/level for the base creature. HD type are not effected by creature size (despite someones claim to the contrary).

Stephen

Stephen_E
2008-01-24, 06:27 PM
I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree. Size affects hit dice as well. Which is why I can see a cat having smaller HD than a dog.

I think the 2 extra HD gained would be a racial hit die and they would be 1/2 d8. You just made the animal gain intelligence, you didn't make it grow.

Your claim is completely unsupported by the rules. If you were correct then spells that changed your size would change your HD! They don't, therefore creature size doesn't effect HD type.

Creatures have partial HD because they're considered to only be part of a level. Can you point to any creature that has, as it's basic description, multiple partial HD.

Stephen

Mewtarthio
2008-01-24, 06:38 PM
2nd - When someone cast Maximised Natures ally III and summons 1d3 Dire Badgers do you give them a) 3 standard Dire Badgers, or b) 3 Standard Dire Badgers with max hit points and max stats (Str 22, Dex 24, Con 26, Wis 20, Char 18, 48hps ).
If you do a) then you can't maximise Awaken. If you do b) go for it. Maximise it as much as you like (but remember for animals Wis doesn't change, and Cha gets a +3).

This would be true if the awaken spell granted the "Awakened Animal" template to creatures. In that case, the spell would just apply a template, and said template would be as unaltered as a summoned (or called) monster's stats. However, there is no "Awakened Animal" template. What the spell actually does is permanently set Int to 3d6 and permanently increase Cha by 1d3. Those are both variable, numeric effects, so the metamagic feat can effect them.

InkEyes
2008-01-24, 07:02 PM
A creature's favored class is its monster class, so that would probably be animal or magical beast. I don't think that would change when an animal is awakened.


Where did you get the +1 from?

The template says to add a +1 LA.

Stephen_E
2008-01-24, 07:08 PM
This would be true if the awaken spell granted the "Awakened Animal" template to creatures. In that case, the spell would just apply a template, and said template would be as unaltered as a summoned (or called) monster's stats. However, there is no "Awakened Animal" template. What the spell actually does is permanently set Int to 3d6 and permanently increase Cha by 1d3. Those are both variable, numeric effects, so the metamagic feat can effect them.

As I said early on this when it 1st came up, if you treat it as a template, which a 3rd party book source did, then no question, maximise can;t work.

Otherwise it is debatable, but to my mind if it walks like a template, talks like a template, and semlls like a template, it's a template.

I'd also point out that summon spells creat a creature, so you can claim that all variables are affected, and the only reason you use set stat blocks for summoned creature is ease of use. The RAW makes no bones about this as does say you can do otherwise. Therefore by the same argument you use it would be perfectly reasonable to maximise all the stats and hps for summoned creatures. That would certainly make Summon spells more popular. While Maximise Rods are exspensive, Empower Rods are relatively cheap, and would be almost as good.

Stephen

Stephen_E
2008-01-24, 07:15 PM
A creature's favored class is its monster class, so that would probably be animal or magical beast. I don't think that would change when an animal is awakened.


Actually when they went to 3.5 they seem to have changed that. Look at Savage Species - 3.25, and the Monster Manual 3.5. I SS the monster class was the favoured class. In MM all the monsters I've seen stated as suitable for PC play have a specific favoured character class.

Most animals would be Scout, but some should probably be barbarian (Wolverine, Badger ectere) and a hanful should be Fighter (Warhorse ecetre). Possibly some Rogue as well (Monkeys).

Stephen

Bag_of_Holding
2008-01-24, 07:21 PM
Hmm, something just came to mind that I'd like to share with you guys. A normal animal would have LA of -, which means it is not suitable to be played as PC. Adding Awakened template would 'add' +1 LA; supposedly making it playable as a PC.

Similarly, an animated object has LA of -; while Soulfused Construct template adds LA +1 to any construct without Intelligence score or the living construct subtype (which AO fits). Does it mean that we can play a soulfused handkerchief?

InkEyes
2008-01-24, 07:37 PM
Actually when they went to 3.5 they seem to have changed that. Look at Savage Species - 3.25, and the Monster Manual 3.5. I SS the monster class was the favoured class. In MM all the monsters I've seen stated as suitable for PC play have a specific favoured character class.

Most animals would be Scout, but some should probably be barbarian (Wolverine, Badger ectere) and a hanful should be Fighter (Warhorse ecetre). Possibly some Rogue as well (Monkeys).

Stephen

The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm) still says it's the creature's monster class. What monsters are stated?

Lochar
2008-01-24, 07:57 PM
The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm) still says it's the creature's monster class. What monsters are stated?

Janni, Gargoyle, Gnolls, Minotaurs, Rakashas, Satyr, Doppelganger.

Rift_Wolf
2008-01-24, 08:08 PM
Maximised Awaken - !st you don't seem to understand how maximised awaken would work, even if it is allowed. Int would go to 18 (max of 3d6) not 18+2. The 3d5 replaces existing Int. Wisdom is unchanged. Charisma would increase by 3 (instead of 1d3).
2nd - When someone cast Maximised Natures ally III and summons 1d3 Dire Badgers do you give them a) 3 standard Dire Badgers, or b) 3 Standard Dire Badgers with max hit points and max stats (Str 22, Dex 24, Con 26, Wis 20, Char 18, 48hps ).
If you do a) then you can't maximise Awaken. If you do b) go for it. Maximise it as much as you like (but remember for animals Wis doesn't change, and Cha gets a +3).


In my post I was talking about plants, which get a better deal than animals from awakening. As for the Maximised Natures Ally argument, I don't see it as having much relevance. RAW, Summon spells say you can summon 1d3 or 1d4+n animals. It doesn't say anything about the stats of the creatures. Awaken, however, states that plants get 3d6 to Int, Wis and Cha. Maximise Spell lets you maximise stated dice rolls, not implied ones.
Hell, with an empowered rod, you could get the trees stats up to 27 each. Oh to be a high level druid, creating roses more charismatic than I...

A.Sondergaard
2008-01-24, 08:53 PM
What spells/effects are there that give you additional HD.
The spell's name escapes me at the moment, but I believe it was in Complete Warrior. On the other hand, I believe it's inspire greatness, again, bardic music, that grants an extra Hit Die.
HD as a plural term is considered synonomous with chracter levels by definition. So unless otherwise specified I can't see any basis for not allowing the character to take these as class levels.Probably the best reason not to allow them to take them as class levels is that it isn't specified that they are class levels. Awaken doesn't specifically grant them as class levels in the PHB or SRD, and has not been errata'd to do so. The only time you should be gaining a class level after you've got your first hit die/dice, racial or otherwise, is if you move up an experience level.
If you say they aren't then basically you're saying they shouldn't add to the characters level. If you want to play it that way it works even better for the animal.And of course, that's not what I said at all. The rules for determing ECL count all HD as levels, regardless of whether or not they're racial HD. So, uh, no, it doesn't work out better for the animal. They've got +2 ECL taken up by two, more often than not, lame animal HD.

DementedFellow
2008-01-24, 09:12 PM
Your claim is completely unsupported by the rules. If you were correct then spells that changed your size would change your HD! They don't, therefore creature size doesn't effect HD type.

Creatures have partial HD because they're considered to only be part of a level. Can you point to any creature that has, as it's basic description, multiple partial HD.

Stephen

My bad, you're totally right. Sorry. But why would they include a partially-leveled cat in the MM when a dog is fully leveled?

InkEyes
2008-01-24, 09:27 PM
Janni, Gargoyle, Gnolls, Minotaurs, Rakashas, Satyr, Doppelganger.

Ah, thanks. I'd say those are exceptions rather than the rule, especially because none of those are animals and all of them are normally sentient. Personally, if I ever played an awakened animal I'd just replace all animal HD with class levels and make it my favored class for simplicity's sake. You'd think Wizard would make sentient animal rules a little more clear-cut. It's not like the idea of animals as PCs has never occurred to anyone before.

Chronos
2008-01-24, 09:43 PM
My bad, you're totally right. Sorry. But why would they include a partially-leveled cat in the MM when a dog is fully leveled?Because dogs have more HP than cats. In the real world, this is primarily because dogs are bigger than cats, but the game rules don't explicitly make that connection.

Stephen_E
2008-01-24, 11:48 PM
My bad, you're totally right. Sorry. But why would they include a partially-leveled cat in the MM when a dog is fully leveled?


My guess, and I stress it's a guess, is that they regonise that a cat (kobold ecetre) is weaker than a dog, but they don't want to give it sucky HD because that srews up any advancement. Thus by saying that the base creature only gets part of a level, that part been everything bar the full HD, you keep a functional monster, which can be advanced decently, while retaining the fact that your basic cat IS a lot more fragile than a dog.

Keep in mind the core concept with hps is that your 1 HD or standard racial HD represents basic actual damage the body can take, and all addiional HD are largely instincts that allow you to move in such a way as to minimise the actual damage your body takes. So it makes sense that additional HD for all animals should be the same regardless of size because their ability tolearn to roll with the blow is the same for all.

Note: This is all guesswork on my part.

Stephen

Stephen_E
2008-01-24, 11:59 PM
Ah, thanks. I'd say those are exceptions rather than the rule, especially because none of those are animals and all of them are normally sentient. Personally, if I ever played an awakened animal I'd just replace all animal HD with class levels and make it my favored class for simplicity's sake. You'd think Wizard would make sentient animal rules a little more clear-cut. It's not like the idea of animals as PCs has never occurred to anyone before.

Exceptions!? What are you talking about. I don't know a single monster race that is considered by the designers as a possible PC race that isn't given a actual favoured class.

Of course animals aren't given a favoured class. They're animals, they don't get to take character classes unless they're sentient, and odlly enough they haven't bothered to go through and add "if someone awakens this creature, and you decide to play in as a PC, despite us not considering these species as suitable for PC play, then it's favoured class should be "x". ".

My guess is that wizards hasn't made sentient animal PC rules clearer because the official line is they don't want you playing them. It would sort of be like traffic police issuing recomendations on how to behave when breaking the speed limit.

Stephen

Stephen_E
2008-01-25, 12:17 AM
The spell's name escapes me at the moment, but I believe it was in Complete Warrior. On the other hand, I believe it's inspire greatness, again, bardic music, that grants an extra Hit Die.

The Bardic song grants bonus HD and specifies what they do. Bonus HD aren't level HD as such and only do what they specify they do, although in the case of animal companion bonus HD they do almost everything that HD do, but it still isn't the same (and this was something that I thought differently on until a long argument months past convinced me I was wrong).
The only spell I can find in the Comp Warriors refers to temporary hps.


Probably the best reason not to allow them to take them as class levels is that it isn't specified that they are class levels. Awaken doesn't specifically grant them as class levels in the PHB or SRD, and has not been errata'd to do so. The only time you should be gaining a class level after you've got your first hit die/dice, racial or otherwise, is if you move up an experience level.

Your argument strike the problem thatDnD rules treat gaining HD asn synonmous for gaining levels throughout the rules. So saying it shouldn't be done here bacause they havn't specified is saying we shouldn't treat it as default because they don't say it's default. That's the whole point of default, it's what appies when you don't state otherwise.

I'd also note that claiming you can only gain character class levels through gaining xp is complete nonsense. Monster gain character levels when ever the DM assigns them. Awakened Animals aren't designed to be played as PCs! So, no, they don't need xp to gain character levels! Thus while a PC normally advances through XP, the spell awaken gives you two levels/HD as if you're a monster (animal) because that's what it's designed for.

Stephen

Stephen_E
2008-01-25, 12:30 AM
In my post I was talking about plants, which get a better deal than animals from awakening. As for the Maximised Natures Ally argument, I don't see it as having much relevance. RAW, Summon spells say you can summon 1d3 or 1d4+n animals. It doesn't say anything about the stats of the creatures. Awaken, however, states that plants get 3d6 to Int, Wis and Cha. Maximise Spell lets you maximise stated dice rolls, not implied ones.
Hell, with an empowered rod, you could get the trees stats up to 27 each. Oh to be a high level druid, creating roses more charismatic than I...

The post I was responding to appeared to be talking about animals, not trees.

I'd point out that RAW does say animals have variable stats. You just have to go to several different spots to put it altogether. As for complaining about implied points. The whole discussion on the awaken spell relies heavily on implication for both side of the arguments. You're sort of burning your own house around you suggesting implied statements don't count.

Just a reminder on Empowered Maximised. Casting Empowered Maximise on a 3d6 variable roll won't normally give a result of 27. It gives 18 + (3d6)/2.
This would normally be around 23 or 24. (18 + 10.5/2).


An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.


Stephen

A.Sondergaard
2008-01-25, 06:53 PM
I'd also note that claiming you can only gain character class levels through gaining xp is complete nonsense.How exactly is that nonsense? Even if they are NPCs, it's patently stupid to assume that creatures with class levels just appear out of nowhere as level 3 fighters or level 8 wizards. Even though the exp an NPC has is relatively unimportant, it should still be assumed the character has enough experience to have gained whatever class levels it has.
Your argument strike the problem thatDnD rules treat gaining HD asn synonmous for gaining levels throughout the rules. So saying it shouldn't be done here bacause they havn't specified is saying we shouldn't treat it as default because they don't say it's default. That's the whole point of default, it's what appies when you don't state otherwise.Advancing a monster through adding HD is not the same as gaining levels. The quote from the PHB pg 309, for those of you following along at home..
Hit Die/Dice (HD): In the singular form, a die rolled to generate hit points. In the plural form, a measure of relative power that is synonymous with character level for the sake of spells, magic items, and magical effects that affect a certain number of Hit Dice of creatures....and the Monster Manual pg. 5...
A creature's Hit Dice total is also treated as its level for determining how spells affect the creature, its rate of natural healing, and its maximum ranks in a skill.The rules never say that gaining hit dice is synonymous with gaining levels. You say that it is, but the rules certainly don't. I'll say it once more; gaining Hit Dice is a function of gaining levels, not vice-versa. If they wanted the spell to add to class levels, they would've said so, because being told to gain two class levels implies gaining two hit dice. Instead, the spell says add two Hit Dice, which at no point in any book does it say that you gain two class levels by gaining hit dice. The only section of rules that covers permanently adding HD to a creature is the Monster Manual, which again, suggests you add hit dice of the creatures current type. They have a separate section for adding class levels to a monster.

Logic says you add 2 magical beast hit dice, not add two levels of whatever you want.

Signmaker
2008-01-26, 11:51 AM
I've currently got an Awakened Butterfly Dragon Shaman at CL4 (ECL 6 by DM's ruling, RHD+Class Levels, no LA), with Flight-based feats. Very annoying to hit, due to being fine sized, fun as your enemies look up in shock as pretty Butterfly goes FWAH! I plan on somehow tweaking its intimidate check to go above and beyond the -16 (versus medium) penalty, and have the most scary butterfly PC evar.

kentma57
2008-01-26, 04:16 PM
Use activated Quickened, Mass, Awaken costs 331,500gp caster level 18 so 6 canimals/planrs a casting... I am getting one of these next time I play high level...

Chronos
2008-01-26, 04:33 PM
Strictly speaking, you can't have an awakened butterfly, since a butterfly is a vermin, not an animal. That said, though, that's a great application of Rule 0. The mental image sure sticks with you, at least.

Signmaker
2008-01-26, 04:35 PM
Strictly speaking, you can't have an awakened butterfly, since a butterfly is a vermin, not an animal. That said, though, that's a great application of Rule 0. The mental image sure sticks with you, at least.

That's why Rule 0 can be fun. If the image is cool enough and reasonable enough, why not?

Admiral Squish
2008-01-26, 04:37 PM
Loopholes for all! In eberron, ther is a feat: Child of Winter. It lets you summon vermin with Nature's Ally, and it lets you treat vermin as animals for any spell you cast. So, vermin aren't illegal no more! Rejoice, my chitinous brothers!

Mewtarthio
2008-01-26, 04:51 PM
Loopholes for all! In eberron, ther is a feat: Child of Winter. It lets you summon vermin with Nature's Ally, and it lets you treat vermin as animals for any spell you cast. So, vermin aren't illegal no more! Rejoice, my chitinous brothers!

Nooo!

The fools, the mad fools... Now it is only a matter of time before the servants of the Nightmare From The Deep awaken our mighty crab overlords...

Mark Hall
2008-01-26, 05:12 PM
And then you have animal companions, familiars, and the paladin's warhorse. Some of these creatures are also intelligent enough to take class levels, but that intelligence is dependant on another creature's class features... ??? I actually came up with this for an NPC I built. It was a half-ogre sorcerer. Had all the intelligence of a glass of water. His rat familiar, however, was considerably smarter, and realized that the only thing keeping him sentient was this moron spellcaster. It was desperately trying to find some way to keep itself intelligent after the inevitable death of the walking speedbump, so it was trying, and failing, to take it's own class levels in Wizard and to turn itself into it's own familiar.

Is that official? We've been running it that once a familiar becomes intelligent, they remain so.

Rift_Wolf
2008-01-27, 04:42 AM
Just a quick sidenote; this thread had me thinking of the stupidest thing a drunk druid could do involving awakened animals. This started off the idea of 'We taught the Octopus Kung Fu'. This idea was carried on during five hours of drinking and waiting for friends to come to the pub into what else you could teach an octopus (Bushido, ESP, to love, etc). This may have spawned a t-shirt design.

Fhaolan
2008-01-27, 01:20 PM
Is that official? We've been running it that once a familiar becomes intelligent, they remain so.

I honestly don't know. I don't think it's specified in any of the rules. It's possible to interperet the familiar rules is so many different ways it makes it difficult.

For example, is the familiar a normal animal boosted by the familiarization process, is it a magical entity *created* by the ritual, is it a magical spirit of some kind that is inhabiting an animal body, or is there a land of magical beasts that just happen to resemble normal animals? It's all fluff, but this is one of those cases where fluff and crunch have to work together.

Stephen_E
2008-01-30, 05:37 AM
Been offline for the last few days but since the threads not past the dead line I'll answer Sondergaards response to my posts.



I'd also note that claiming you can only gain character class levels through gaining xp is complete nonsense.

I withdraw this point since on reflection of the rules they do talk about NPCs getting XP, even if it isn't tracked.

The point is that it doesn't track xp for NPCs. The spell Awaken doesn't create a PC creature. Sure, I, and probably everyone reading this thread, doesn't have a problem with using them as PC's, but the rules don't intend it, so unlike the DoMT Comet card which increases a PC a level, and tells you ta gain enough xp to bring you to the minimum of the next level, the Awaken spells just says gain to HD. Even if the spell said gain to levels, it still wouldn't mention xp because you don't track xp for a NPC, which the rules default assume awakened creature are.



Your argument strike the problem thatDnD rules treat gaining HD asn synonmous for gaining levels throughout the rules. So saying it shouldn't be done here bacause they havn't specified is saying we shouldn't treat it as default because they don't say it's default. That's the whole point of default, it's what appies when you don't state otherwise.


Advancing a monster through adding HD is not the same as gaining levels. The quote from the PHB pg 309, for those of you following along at home..
Quote:
Hit Die/Dice (HD): In the singular form, a die rolled to generate hit points. In the plural form, a measure of relative power that is synonymous with character level for the sake of spells, magic items, and magical effects that affect a certain number of Hit Dice of creatures.

...and the Monster Manual pg. 5...
Quote:
A creature's Hit Dice total is also treated as its level for determining how spells affect the creature, its rate of natural healing, and its maximum ranks in a skill.

The rules never say that gaining hit dice is synonymous with gaining levels. You say that it is, but the rules certainly don't. I'll say it once more; gaining Hit Dice is a function of gaining levels, not vice-versa. If they wanted the spell to add to class levels, they would've said so, because being told to gain two class levels implies gaining two hit dice. Instead, the spell says add two Hit Dice, which at no point in any book does it say that you gain two class levels by gaining hit dice. The only section of rules that covers permanently adding HD to a creature is the Monster Manual, which again, suggests you add hit dice of the creatures current type. They have a separate section for adding class levels to a monster.

Try looking at the SRD "Monsters and Class Levels" under improving monsters.
It does say that any HD gained are considered to involve gaining the XP required for that ECL (taking in account Lve Adj, Racial HD and class levels) so the Awaken spell must be considered to give the target enough xp to gain 2 levels

Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level
To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. The monster is considered to have experience points equal to the minimum needed to be a character of its ECL.

If you choose to equip a monster with gear, use its ECL as its character level for purposes of determining how much equipment it can purchase. Generally, only monsters with an Advancement entry of "By character class" receive NPC gear; other creatures adding character levels should be treated as monsters of the appropriate CR and assigned treasure, not equipment.


It's difficult to read this and claim that HD and levels aren't considered synomous for everything, and more..



Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases
A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.

and..


Increasing Hit Dice
As its Hit Dice increase, a creature’s attack bonuses and saving throw modifiers might improve. It gains more feats and skills, depending on its type, as shown on Table: Creature Improvement by Type.

Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type.

This is followed with a table giving the details for advancing by Racial HD detailing everything they gain exactly the same as when gaining a Class level.

I could go on.

My point is that since we're talking about Awakened animals been PC's I think we've accepted they can gain class levels, so we're left with can the 2HD the spell gives the target be Class levels instead of Racial HD.

Whether the Racial HD or Class Levels the target gains HD, hps, skill pts, saving throws, feats, ability increases, and xp.
The rules also make it clear that a monster capable of gaining class levels can advance with class levels instead of Racial HD. Basically when all is said and done Racial HD are simly a form of class level, much like NPC class levels are.

This isn't something that you can say RAW clearly indicates the answer is "x", but I think the balance of the evidence is such that I feel the likelhood is 80%+ in favour of stating those +2HD can be taken as either Magical BEast Racial HD or Class levels, or even NPC class levels if you really want to.

Stephen

whisperlupine
2009-12-13, 06:22 PM
ok, weird question, but having scoured ELH and every other sourcebook I could think of, I can't figure this out.

What about using the Epic Spell Fortify Seed to add HD to a creature or character...is this considered a class level? What about skill points, feats, ability bonuses, etc? I have a player wanting to design an epic spell doing just that, and I'm not sure how to handle. Thus far, I'm thinking not class level, because then he'd just keep using it to make his character higher and higher level wizard, but not sure about whether he gets skill points, character level feats and ability increases, or CON bonus to hit points per HD added.

Also, the character is multiclassed, so it's added HD would be based on which character class, or would it be based on racial HD standard or on the 5 hit points to make it an HD?

He's making it permanent, so what would this do to his XP total?


On an unrelated sidenote...there has been some argument over whether the number of epic spells per day are based on Knowledge (arcane or religion) ranks (how many skill points spent, max CL+3) or the total (including INT modifier). Any advice on this one?

Darius Rae
2009-12-13, 10:37 PM
Similarly, an animated object has LA of -; while Soulfused Construct template adds LA +1 to any construct without Intelligence score or the living construct subtype (which AO fits). Does it mean that we can play a soulfused handkerchief?

I have been reading the forum for a while, but just now made an account to say YES PLEASE!!! I was planning on running a winter campaign but i think a campaign where everyone has to be an awakened animal or solfused construct would be hilarious!

How do you go about adding the soulfused construct template? I was running a cleric with a camel mount in an old campaign and was scared to death of loosing the camel. I decided that I could just create undead it, but this would be wonderful. You take your favorite mount that has died, stuff it, animate it, and finally soulfuse it!