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Roderick_BR
2008-01-23, 03:00 PM
This is an exercise I thought about when I was reading about these monk threads.
Now, don't take it as a way to claim that the monk suck, or how to fix the fighter against casters, or whatever, just how a "unarmed" fighter would look like.

Take a 20th level fighter. Elite Array: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Feats (ignoring order):

Unarmed feats(3):
Improved Unarmed Strike (PHB1)
Superior Unarmed Damage (ToB)
Superior Natural Attack (MM?)

Weapon feats(6)
Weapon Focus (PHB1)
Weapon Focus Greater (PHB1)
Weapon Specialization (PHB1)
GreaterWeapon Specialization (PHB1)
Weapon Mastery (PHB2)
Weapon Supremacy (PHB2)
Improved Critical (PHB1)

Two-weapon feats (4)
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (PHB1)
Dual Strike (CAdv)
Two-Weapon pounce (PHB2)

Charger feats (4)
Power Attack (PHB1)
Improved Bullrush (PHB1)
Shock Trooper (CWar)
Leap Attack (CAdv)

Equipment:
Two +6 adamantine gauntlets (enhancement +5, defending) (DMG1)
Mithrall +10 breastplate (enhancement +5, heavy fortification)
Large steel Shield +7 (enhancement +5, animated) (DMG1)
Ring of mental fortitude (DMG2)
Ring of freedom of movement (DMG1)
Scarab of protection against death (DMG1)
Vest of resistance +5 (One of the completes, I think...)
Belt of strength +6 (DMG1)
Gloves of dexterity +6 (DMG1)
Wings of flying (DMG1)
Boots of speed (DMG1)

Ability enhancements by level:
Str +2= Str 16
Dex +3= Dex 18
FInal ability scores: Str 22(+6), Dex 24 (+7), Con 13 (+1), Int 10 (+0), Wis 12(+1), Cha 8 (-1)

Now, here is how this fighter will turn out:
Class/Level/HP: Fighter 20, HP 115 (10 + 19d10 + 20)
AC: 33 (base 10, Dex +5, Armor +10, shield +7, Feat +1), touch 16, surprised 27, touch/surprised 10
Initiative: +7 (Dex +7)
Speed: 30ft (land)/30 ft(fly, average maneuver)
Attack: Unarmed strike +27/+22/+17/+12 (base +20, magic +5, feats +2), Critical 19-20/x2.
Damage: Unarmed strike 3d6+13 (Str +4, magic +5, feats +4)
Fort save: +19 (base 12, Cons +2, Magic +5)
Refl save: +18 (base 6, Dex +7, Magic +5)
Will save: +12 (base 6, Will +1, Magic +5)

These are the fighter's options:
When a battle starts, he'll try to charge, using shock trooper/leap attack to deal 3d6+53 (+20 from P.A., +20 from leap attack) damage on an attack, taking -20 to AC. If he crits (19-20), he deals 6d6+106
Since he has two weapon pounce, he can take a -5 to hit with both hands, dealing 6d6+106, 12d6+212 on a critical.
If he can't charge, he can still attack twice every round, dealing the basic damage every time he hits, attacking with +25 and +25 (TWF penalties applied).
If an enemy is flying, he can fly after it with his cape, or use some ranged weapon (not stated above) as normal.
If he can full attack an enemy, he can make attacks with +25/+20/+15/+10 with one hand, and +25/+20 with the other.
He can activate his boots of speed for an extra AC bonus, and full attack with +25/+25/+20/+15/+10 with one hand, and +25/+25/+20 with the other.
Since he has weapon supremacy, he can choose one of his attacks, other than the first, to gain a +5. The book doesn't say that if it works for each hand, in case you carry two weapons, so I'll assume you can: Your attack is +25/+25/+15/+10 and +25/+25, or +25/+25/+25/+15/+10 and +25/+25/+25 with speed.
The fighter is immune to mental compulsions and ilusions (ring mental fortitude), a number of death effect and energy drains (brooch of protection), and cannot be paralyzed or bind (ring of freedom of movement), and is generally immune to critical hit damage and precision damage (heavy fortification).
You can also add extra effects to armor that doesn't count as a "+1" enchantment (like those energy resistance spells). MIC has many of them, including some for weapons.
If things get bad, he can move enhancement bonuses from the gauntlets to AC (up to +10). There's also an enchantment on MIC that works the same, but moving the bonus to saves.

I paid no actual attention to WBL, nor checked at which levels I would take every feat, but this is the final result. I may try to stat a level by level later tonight.
I have 2 feats free, I think, not counting playing a human for a extra feat.
I left Greater Two-Weapon Fighint off on purpose, since it requires 2 more Dex points, and the feat, and that 3rd attack is not really worth it.
For a good brokeness, you could make the classic level dip into barbarian to gain pounce, and dropping the Two-Weapon Pounce feat.
I can use the Impact enchantment from MIC, that is like the DMG's Keen, only for bludgeoning weapons, freeing up the Improved Critical feat.
I could, at the "expense" of 1 base attack bonus, get 2 levels of swordsage to gain the Wis bonus to AC (finding a good item to boost Wis), and some maneuvers like Pouncing Charge to replace Two-Weapon Pounce (or barbarian's pounce), and get additional attacks with the Moongose maneuvers.
With enough free feats, I could get some combat forms feats to enhance even more my resistance.
If I get pounce, I can get that feat from PHB2 that gives me bonuses when I hit consecutive attacks with bludgeoning weapons (I don't remember the name, Weapon Mastery:Bludgeoning is the requisite).
Maybe that jothumbrug(sp?) feat from forgotten realms and Combat Expertise/Improved Grappling, along mage slayer feat (complete arcane?) for a slightly chance of catching casters off-guard, or a psyonic level for those nifty size-changing powers.

Legal problems I can find is if I can use Superior Unarmed Damage and Superior Natural Strike with gauntlets, but since the book states them as unarmed strikes (unlike bladed gauntlets that are light weapons, for example) I think it's fine, and if I can use weapon supremacy with two weapons if they are the same type.

Any more suggestions for good feats/class dips/races? Anything I'm missing, besides UMD for a few extra bonuses?
I'd like to Keep at least the 18 fighter levels for Weapon Supremacy. I want this build to be mainly a fighter, but a few level dips are alright.

Keld Denar
2008-01-23, 03:25 PM
Go Goliath as a race (+1) and take Mountain Rage Lion Totem Barbarian. This combined loses you a feat, so with your other feat take Extra Rage. The size boost will up your damage, as will the rage. The pounce from LT Barb is FAR superior to TW Pounce feat.

Other than that, I just gotta say HOLY WBL BATMAN! You've got easily close to 2 mil in permanent magic items. I know a couple rogues who want to know where you sleep so they can *cough* help you keeping all that gear *cough* inventoried.

Also, you still aren't close to the numbers reached by the least versions of the Ubercharger. Even with the 3 extra attacks, you are losing the potency of 4:1 PA with Leap Attack.

GWF and all that are pretty bad, even Weapon Supremecy is not worth sticking in Fighter for 18 levels. Something with Fighter, Barb, Pious Templar (for Rhino's Rush) and anything else full BAB.

Roderick_BR
2008-01-23, 04:42 PM
Ah, true, Lion Toten is pretty good too.
As I said, I was not caring for WBL :smalltongue: (I noticed that I stacked some itens that can't be used together, like gloves and gauntlets). I'm aware that it doesn't do the same damage as a two-hander, this was just an experience.
And I know that the WF tree is bad. I just wanted to see how a fighter class would look like punching instead of hacking with a sword.

Wordmiser
2008-01-23, 05:02 PM
Claws of the Leopard from Complete Adventurer cost 19305 gp and grant Pounce. Unfortunately, they're spiked gauntlets, so you'll do about 5 damage less per hit (But you'll free up two feats--Greater Powerful Charge would more than make up for the difference). The MIC appendix rules woud let you apply a +6 Dex Enhancement for no more cost than the Gloves of Dexterity would normally cost.

If we're to act like this is for practical play, you could replace your weapon and Armor enhancements with Pearls of Power.

Person_Man
2008-01-23, 05:07 PM
Your damage output isn't anything impressive. A good unarmed combat build can get to 12d8 damage by mid-high levels. For example, Shifter Monk 3/Psychic Warrior 3/Warshaper 1/Fist of the Forest 3/Psychic Warrior X with a couple of feats, the Expansion Power, and a Monk's Belt. There are many other ways, just scroll down on this link (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=662842) to the Increasing Monk Damage section.

The Weapon Focus/Supremacy feats don't scale. There are a lot of other better options out there.

Unarmed Strikes are not Natural Weapons (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Natural_Weapons). They're Unarmed Strikes (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Unarmed_Strike), which are a distinct category. They do not use the Natural Weapon attack routine. They do not qualify for feats that require Natural Weapons. If you want to take Improved Natural Attack and apply them to your Unarmed Strikes, you need to take a level of Monk. Monks have a special ability that allow them to treat their Unarmed Strikes as Unarmed Strikes, Natural Weapons, and Manufactured Weapons.

Powerful Build does not apply to Unarmed Strikes. So Goliath is a bad idea for any unarmed build.

A 1 level dip in Barbarian using the Complete Champion variant will give you Pounce. There are plenty of other ways.

Most unarmed builds should also use Grapple, since its generally a much easier way to deal unarmed damage. Scorpion's Strike from Sandstorm gives you a free Grapple attempt whenever you hit an enemy.

shaggz076
2008-01-24, 06:37 AM
My DM is planning on running a lvl 25 game and I have done something similar. I have taken the fighter lvls up to 15th adn then taken 10 levels of Thayan Gladiator. Instead of Shock Trooper I have taken Cometary Collision. In my epic feats I had taken Keen strike making my unarmed attack slashing if I choose and Vorpal strike giving my fists the vorpal magic effect. I also took weapon mastery blunt (pre-epic) and slahing (post-epic). So in all my fists are silver, adamantine, magic, shock, vorpal and speed blunt or slashing weapons that deal 2D6+21 damage that crits on a 19-20/x3. I have 7 attacks a round and can bump that up to 8 by taking a -5 (Slashing Flurry) on all attacks that round. Not too bad as I have a total of +43 to my highest attack.

Nebo_
2008-01-24, 07:26 AM
You can't use unarmed damage with spiked gauntlets.



My DM is planning on running a lvl 25 game and I have done something similar. I have taken the fighter lvls up to 15th adn then taken 10 levels of Thayan Gladiator. Instead of Shock Trooper I have taken Cometary Collision. In my epic feats I had taken Keen strike making my unarmed attack slashing if I choose and Vorpal strike giving my fists the vorpal magic effect. I also took weapon mastery blunt (pre-epic) and slahing (post-epic). So in all my fists are silver, adamantine, magic, shock, vorpal and speed blunt or slashing weapons that deal 2D6+21 damage that crits on a 19-20/x3. I have 7 attacks a round and can bump that up to 8 by taking a -5 (Slashing Flurry) on all attacks that round. Not too bad as I have a total of +43 to my highest attack.

Where to start on this...

Fighter 15? Bad! Never take odd fighter levels. Dealing 2d6+21 damage at level 25 is terrible. Why would you take cometary collision over shocktrooper? The latter is so, so much better. Augh!

shaggz076
2008-01-24, 07:41 AM
So how would you propose doing more than 2D6+21 damage that overcomes Silver, Adamantine and magic damage reduction can be either slashing or bludgeoning, has a 19-20/X3 crit and has a chance to behed the person with a simple human? Oh yeah and just with teh fighter/Thayan Gladiator. Not to mention that would be 8 attacks so if all hit, a minimum of 184 damage a round or a max of 264 a round. With a X3 crit could be 792 dmage per round.

Akennedy
2008-01-24, 10:01 AM
Umm... Just throwing this out there... If I'm not mistaken, which I think I am... monks fists are natural "light weapons"... Right? So, if that's so, aren't you not allowed to power attack with them? I thought I read this somewhere... and sorry in advance if I'm wrong...

Theli
2008-01-24, 10:12 AM
The power attack feat makes an exception for unarmed strikes.

leperkhaun
2008-01-24, 10:14 AM
Umm... Just throwing this out there... If I'm not mistaken, which I think I am... monks fists are natural "light weapons"... Right? So, if that's so, aren't you not allowed to power attack with them? I thought I read this somewhere... and sorry in advance if I'm wrong...

Special
If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You canít add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)

Roderick_BR
2008-01-24, 11:40 AM
@Person_Man: I didn't claim to have an optmized build, or even try to out-damage a two-hander damage output, I was just seeing how a guy hitting with his hands would look like without being a monk.
I'm aware that the Weapon Focus tree is not good, and I did say I wanted to keep this guy mostly a fighter, just to see how it would turn out.
Yes, I only now remembered that I need a level in monk to make my unarmed strike count as a natural strike, my bad.
The Goliath thing is to use the barbarian substitution level, where he turns into a normal large creature (instead of a medium creature with powerful buld) when raging. I'd need the Extra Rage feat, though. Hmm... an interesting variant would be the Frenzy barbarian. If my HP drops to bellow hald maximum, I grow, and deal more damage. hah. That would be funny.
I'm considering dropping some levels of fighter, if I don't get the Weapon Focus tree, and get some levels in that wrestler class.

@Nebo_: I did say that spiked gauntlets are light weapons, not unarmed strikes.

@shaggz076: I'll have to agree with Nebo. At epic level, you could get a lot of better stuff, but cool selection of abilities, still. How do you make your unarmed damage become critical x3? Is part of that prestige class?

Btw, lussmanj: I did my math, and I'm bellow the WBL at 670,304 gp :smallbiggrin: Of course, I took out some itens (like the Dex gloves), and I'm not counting potions, scrolls, and ranged weapons.

shaggz076
2008-01-24, 12:29 PM
Yes, it is part of the prestige class. You get the Silver, Adamantine and magic enhancements to your chosen "Natural" attack. You also gain Improved Critical, an Improved multiplier, a stun on a critical and the ability to imbue your unarmes strike with a choice of different abilities. Now I chose to go with the extra attack from the Speed magic enhancement. The other thing to think about is I only have the Amulet of mighty fists+5 for any enhancement above his own Strength and specialization.

shaggz076
2008-01-24, 12:35 PM
(+20 from P.A., +20 from leap attack)??????

I thought the most you could take on Power attack was -5 to attack to gain +5 to damage. As for the leap attack... Umm... Where is this feat that you can get a +20 to damage?

Darrin
2008-01-24, 12:36 PM
Yes, I only now remembered that I need a level in monk to make my unarmed strike count as a natural strike, my bad.


You could also try taking a level of the Unarmed SwordSage variant, or Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion). Both of these would give you the equivalent of the monk's unarmed strike (which would count as a natural weapon) without necessarily burdening you with the suckitude of actually being a monk. Fist of the Forest is definately worth looking at, since you get two unarmed strike damage increases in only a 3-level PrC.

Do a search for Person_Man's "Frozen Dwarf Hulk Smash" for an interesting unarmed strike build.

Theli
2008-01-24, 12:42 PM
(+20 from P.A., +20 from leap attack)??????

I thought the most you could take on Power attack was -5 to attack to gain +5 to damage. As for the leap attack... Umm... Where is this feat that you can get a +20 to damage?

Unfortunately, no such restrictions was placed on this feat as it was for combat expertise. You can power attack up to your BAB.

Darrin
2008-01-24, 12:43 PM
(+20 from P.A., +20 from leap attack)??????

I thought the most you could take on Power attack was -5 to attack to gain +5 to damage. As for the leap attack... Umm... Where is this feat that you can get a +20 to damage?

You're confusing Power Attack with Combat Expertise. Power Attack has no cap limit other than your current BAB. So a +20 BAB character can PA for +20 damage, and leap attack adds another 100% of that damage on top of the original +20 from PA (there's something screwy about how it multiplies damage in the errata for it). Combined with a two-handed weapon and some other charge-related feats, you can get a PA multiplier up around x6 to x8, with damage well above the thousands if not tens of thousands.

shaggz076
2008-01-24, 12:45 PM
Wow! I could have sworn there was. Well if that is the case my character would be able to do 20 points more than I stated originally per attack since Cometary collision needs Bull rush which needs Power attack. lol

Roderick_BR
2008-01-24, 01:19 PM
Yeah, the Leap Attack + Shock Trooper is a classic combo for uberchargers. If you get levels in Frenzied Berserker, you gain another +100%, meaning that for every -1 to attack (or AC), you gain +3 to damage, or +6, with a two-handed weapon!
The errata was made because the way it was written, first you multiplied your power attack (that was already 1:2 with a two-handed weapon) by 3 (2 x 3 = 6!) Then you multiplied it all by 2, being a frienzied berzerker (6 x 2 = 12!!!!!), so you could get -20 to your AC (to be sure you won't miss), and get +240 points of damage. Before applying strength, magic, etc. And before rolling the dice.
With the errata, you get the normal bonus from power attack (1:1, or 1:2 with a two-hander), then you add that bonus again with leap attack, and again with the frenzied ability.
Leap Attack is from Complete Adventurer.

And that's an awesome PrC. Only 3 levels? Neat. I'll look it up.

shaggz076
2008-01-24, 01:30 PM
Ok now you have me really interested. Can you list for me the books and prerequisites needed for the above feats. Also where is the Frienzied Berserker located? My DM has all the books for 3.5 so I will be able to find them all.

Frosty
2008-01-24, 01:32 PM
I think Frenzied Berserker is from Comp Warrior?

Person_Man
2008-01-24, 02:42 PM
Power Attack is PHB.
Improved Bull Rush is PHB. It's a pre-req for Shock Trooper.
Shock Trooper is in Comp Warrior.
Leap Attack is in Comp Adventurer.
Combat Reflexes is in the PHB.

Charge with a two handed reach weapon. Use Leap Attack to boost your damage by +4 damage per BAB. Shift the penalty into your AC using Shock Trooper. Your AC will be piss poor for 1 round, which is why you need Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon (or some similar combo) to defend against counter attacks.

FYI, Leap Attack has been errata'd (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a). DM's still argue about whether it grants a +3 or +4 bonus. Talk to your DM about it.

Also, there are much better ways to get even higher damage without Frenzied Berserker. For example:

Headlong Rush (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a) with a reach weapon.
Spirited Charge with a lance two handed (+6 per BAB with Power Attack).
Battle Jump from Unapproachable East.
Valorous Weapon Enhancement from Unapproachable East.
Rhino Rush spell from Spell Comp.
Cavalier PrC from Comp Champion.

shaggz076
2008-01-25, 06:53 AM
Power Attack is PHB.
Improved Bull Rush is PHB. It's a pre-req for Shock Trooper.
Shock Trooper is in Comp Warrior.
Leap Attack is in Comp Adventurer.
Combat Reflexes is in the PHB.

Charge with a two handed reach weapon. Use Leap Attack to boost your damage by +4 damage per BAB. Shift the penalty into your AC using Shock Trooper. Your AC will be piss poor for 1 round, which is why you need Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon (or some similar combo) to defend against counter attacks.



Just to check, are there any other pre-requisites for the Shock trooper and Leap attack feats? I am looking into a Warblade character but I am at work and only have the TOB with me.

So far I figure i'll take Power attack and Bull rush as my first level feats and then i'll take Leap attack for my 3rd level and Combat reflexes for my 6ths level. Once we get to 9th i'll take Shock trooper. Fit him with a Bastard Sword (Katana) for flavor and go from there.

Theli
2008-01-25, 09:51 AM
My, what cheese is wrought from only two splat books.



Standard disclaimer:
Yeah, yeah. Casters can do more. Yadda yadda yadda.

shaggz076
2008-01-25, 10:18 AM
lol. I know! I just think it will be funny to see if my DM allows me to play this character set. He has a habit of just glazing over the characters and letting them pass. I want to see if he will make the connection...

So to confirm, at level 9 I will be able to, while using a 2 handed weapon add +72 damage (from the 3 feats) and take a -9 to AC?

Roderick_BR
2008-01-25, 11:57 AM
Yeah, something like that. Leap Attack requires being 6th level, and some ranks in jump, while Shock Trooper also requires being 6th level with improved bullrush (a fighter could get both at once at 6th level).
If you charge with a two-handed weapon, at 9th level you can get -9 to AC, and add +18 (basic power attack bonus) + 18 (add 100% of the bonus thanks to leap attack) for a total of +36.
If you want a two-handed reach weapon, guisarme is a good weapon, since it gives reach and allows you to trip enemies. If you are willing to spend a feat, look up dwarven warpike from races of stone.
And the errata said 100% of the power attack bonus. The original mistake is that the person that wrote it forgot that using a weapon with two hands already enhances the base bonus from power attack, and added even more. The errata said that you "only" doubles the original bonus, and if you get the ability from frenzied berzerker, you "only" tripple it, instead of multiplying by 12.
Just be careful that Elusive Target can negate your power attack bonuses, leaving you stuck with the penalties.
Btw, Hold the Line or a reach weapon with and Stand Still is better than Cometary Colision.
Hold the Line (Complete Warrior): You gain an attack of opportunity from someone charging you.
Stand Still (Complete Psyonics): If you hit someone with an attack of opportunity provoked by movement, instead of damage, you can make an resisted strength check to force him to finish his movement in the square he was when you hit him. (it's not a psyonic feat, so you can get it as normal).
If you have a reach weapon, the moment the enemy enters your are, he doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, but when he moves from 10ft to 5ft from you, he does, since he is moving through more than one threatened square, meaning that you can hit him. If you do, since you can make a normal single attack, you can use a tripping weapon (like guisarme or spiked chain) to trip him. This tactic saves you those two feats.
Any of these tricks will make you get a bit of a battle field controller, meaning that your DM will hate you :smalltongue:

In retrospect, don't go frenzied berzerker, since you're likely to kill your friends. (My friend played it, and almost killed an ally with a cleave maneuver alone!)

Hmm.. now I'm wondering how a barbarian/fighter/swordsage?/reaping mauler goliath would look like. As a 1st level barbarian, I replace rage with goliath's mountain rage (when I rage, I become large sized, with all benefits/penalties) while getting +4 to grapple checks all the time. Then I replace the rage part with frenzy (PHB2, if I get bellow a number of HP equal to my level, my rage stays active), making a mountain frenzy ability (technically, I can do it, but no sane DM would allow). Then I replace my fast movement with the lion toten pounce ability.
Hmm...... I will write that down.

Person_Man
2008-01-25, 12:45 PM
Just to check, are there any other pre-requisites for the Shock trooper and Leap attack feats? I am looking into a Warblade character but I am at work and only have the TOB with me.

So far I figure i'll take Power attack and Bull rush as my first level feats and then i'll take Leap attack for my 3rd level and Combat reflexes for my 6ths level. Once we get to 9th i'll take Shock trooper. Fit him with a Bastard Sword (Katana) for flavor and go from there.

Shock Trooper requires Improved Bull Rush and Power Attack.
Leap Attack just requires Power Attack and ranks in Jump.
You can look up most feats at Crystalkeep.
I suggest a reach weapon, like a guisarme or lance. You'll get extra AoO from enemies crossing through your threatened area to attack you. That's far more valuable then a few extra points of damage, especially when you consider the damage output from two handed Power or Leap Attack.



My, what cheese is wrought from only two splat books.


Everything tastes better with cheese on it.




So to confirm, at level 9 I will be able to, while using a 2 handed weapon add +72 damage (from the 3 feats) and take a -9 to AC?

4 feats. Power Attack, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush (pre-req), Shock Trooper. The bonus to damage with a one handed weapon and Leap Attack is +2 per BAB. The bonus to damage with a two handed weapon and Leap Attack is +3 or +4 per BAB, depending upon whether or not your DM uses the errata and how he reads it. So at 9th level with a two handed weapon, your full BAB class would get up to +36 damage on a charge, which can be multiplied with other feats.