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Talya
2008-01-23, 10:09 PM
Two combatants are grappling. One happens to be a big nasty cat so is getting rakes in.

Party member attempts to trip the cat. Apart from the 50% chance of hitting the other person in the square with the trip attempt, is there RAW what happens if someone in a grapple gets tripped?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-23, 10:10 PM
I'd call it an auto-pin for the other character, but I think RAW is silent on the topic.

playswithfire
2008-01-23, 10:41 PM
I'd call it an auto-pin for the other character, but I think RAW is silent on the topic.

Maybe not an auto pin, but if your party member successfully trips, you make another grapple check, you win, you get the pin. Fail, make a balance check. Make that, you stay standing, tripped guy falls prone in front of you, fail and he drags you down with him and you're either both prone or still grappling.

Or auto-pin if that seems reasonable, but i think it'd take some effort to keep control while going down

Fixer
2008-01-24, 07:20 AM
Negative. 1st of all, unless the tripper is using a ranged weapon there is no 50% chance of hitting either person. The 50% chance to hit the wrong person only applies to ranged attacks into a grapple. Melee attacks into grapple are handled normally.

Grappling does not assume that the players are lying on the ground. It generally assumes that both parties are standing. Even if someone is pinned they are still considered standing unless something knocks them prone.

If a participant in a grapple falls prone (by being tripped or any other source), they suffer a -4 on all attack rolls (including grapple checks, which are considered an attack roll) and their AC.

Person_Man
2008-01-24, 10:48 AM
Two combatants are grappling. One happens to be a big nasty cat so is getting rakes in.

Party member attempts to trip the cat. Apart from the 50% chance of hitting the other person in the square with the trip attempt, is there RAW what happens if someone in a grapple gets tripped?

There is not a 50% chance of hitting the other person in the square unless its a ranged attack. That was a 3.0 rule that was eliminated in 3.5.

Grappled enemies lose their Dex bonus to AC. (It also does not threaten any squares, which means it can't make AoO). Other then that, you attack the cat as normal. If you succeed in your Trip attempt, the cat is knocked Prone. If it tries to make a melee attack, it takes a -4 penalty to hit. It gains +4 AC to ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to hit against melee attacks. If the cat breaks free of the Grapple, it can take a Move action to stand up. If it does so, it provokes AoO from everyone threatening it.

There are no other special effects, as comical as it might seem.

Theli
2008-01-24, 10:52 AM
Is it possible to trip someone you're in a grapple with?

Yami
2008-01-24, 08:15 PM
It is, but you take a -4 penalty for attacking in a grapple.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-25, 05:03 AM
If a participant in a grapple falls prone (by being tripped or any other source), they suffer a -4 on all attack rolls (including grapple checks, which are considered an attack roll) and their AC.

Person_Man already gave the correct answer, but I think it is important to stress that grapple checks are not attack rolls and are not considered as such either, so you do not apply the -4 modifier from being prone on grapple checks.

The reference in the grapple description to melee attacks is just to tell you that you use BAB to determine your grapple modifier:


Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

Talic
2008-01-25, 05:32 AM
It is possible for a grapple to have all of the following combinations:

both participants standing: wrestling clinch, thai vice, etc.
One participant standing: standing ankle locks, standing figure 4, etc.
Both participants prone: Rear naked choke, top mount, side mount, partial guard, full guard positions, kimora<sp>, etc.

One person falling prone need not affect the other (though I would likely rule a balance check for the other to remain standing as an unexpected force drove their opponent to the ground, this would be a house ruling, and not RAW), and any prone opponents take all usual penalties for being prone.

Theli
2008-01-25, 09:45 AM
Person_Man already gave the correct answer, but I think it is important to stress that grapple checks are not attack rolls and are not considered as such either, so you do not apply the -4 modifier from being prone on grapple checks.

The reference in the grapple description to melee attacks is just to tell you that you use BAB to determine your grapple modifier:

A tripped grappler would still suffer the -4 to AC against Melee Attacks from being prone. Since attacking in a grapple gives you a -4 to your attack roll...

It seems very beneficial to make someone prone in a grapple if you're capable of doing decent damage with an unarmed strike, light weapon, or natural weapon. And since you can attempt a trip by using the -4 attack action mentioned above... (Since improved trip gives you a bonus hit against the target you may not even lose any damage...)

This seems to be an incredibly underused strategy for grapplers.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-25, 09:53 AM
A tripped grappler would still suffer the -4 to AC against Melee Attacks from being prone. Since attacking in a grapple gives you a -4 to your attack roll...

It seems very beneficial to make someone prone in a grapple if you're capable of doing decent damage with an unarmed strike, light weapon, or natural weapon. And since you can attempt a trip by using the -4 attack action mentioned above... (Since improved trip gives you a bonus hit against the target you may not even lose any damage...)

This seems to be an incredibly underused strategy for grapplers.

If you are the one being attacked by the grapple freak it can be rather useful, but tripping someone is almost always useful.

Just remember that if you want to attack with your weapons you are still often better of attacking your tripped opponent outside of grapple. :smallwink:

Theli
2008-01-25, 10:45 AM
But grapple has the advantage of controlling someone's movements. And acting as the ultimate flank for allies.

It also nullifies power attack monkeys a little bit. :p

But yeah, trip outside of grapple is still better for straight melee damage.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-25, 10:51 AM
But grapple has the advantage of controlling someone's movements. And acting as the ultimate flank for allies.

It also nullifies power attack monkeys a little bit. :p

But yeah, trip outside of grapple is still better for straight melee damage.

Absolutely, grapple (and trip) are great for everyone but your ranged ally. :smallsmile: