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Theli
2008-01-24, 01:06 PM
How the hell do Lvl 1 Wizards do any kind of traveling in a cold environment? Is it assumed that they all would have learned Endure Elements?

Sure, you COULD start of with winter clothing, but that's only a +5 to the fortitude check.

Do Lvl 1 parties in a winter campaign just lug around the popsicle wizard until they level and/or research the above spell? Is there any other method for dealing with it?

Incidentally, is it just me, or is it pretty much impossible to die from a cold environment as long as the temperature stays above -20 and you're kept fed and given water?

Edit: Regarding the last note, I missed that non-lethal becomes lethal after unconciousness for cold dangers. So nm that.

kamikasei
2008-01-24, 01:42 PM
How does the rogue?

How does any class at level 1 with a poor fortitude save? It's not like all wizards dump CON. I certainly wouldn't.

And if a wizard has some reason to be traveling in an area where exposure is a danger, he probably will learn Endure Elements.

How cold are we talking, anyway? This cold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#coldDangers)?

Aquillion
2008-01-24, 02:07 PM
You're misreading the rules. The first section is for unprotected characters only; characters with winter clothing don't even have to start rolling saves until the temperature is below 0 F, and even then only check once an hour. A survival check by someone on their party is good for another +2.

The wizard doesn't have it that bad, either. Sure, low HD and fort save, but they're SAD, so their con is likely to be their second-best stat, and in a pinch they have Endure Elements, too, which lasts for 24 hours (if you're adventuring below 0 F, you'd better have endure elements). Assuming you want to do anything but walk around, everyone else without a strong fort save has it just as bad (and possibly worse, since they might have to beg for an endure elements); sure, they won't generally be knocked out by one roll, but they'll drop to the point where they can't really fight. Even a strong fort save is only a small advantage at low levels.

I would say the rogue is worse off, and even frontline fighters could be in more trouble. High-fort-save types get +2 to their roll, sure, but that's, what, 10%? They're no more likely than a wizard to prioritize con, and may actually have lower CON than the wizard if they've got MAD, like a Paladin or Monk... it's not a stretch to say that they could have no better chances than the wizard. And while they'll have more HP and be less likely to get knocked out in one hit, they can't really afford any damage if they expect to get into a fight on their level 1 hp... the wizard with +2 con bonus is fine after the first hour as long as he doesn't roll a 6.

Theli
2008-01-24, 02:15 PM
You're misreading the rules. The first section is for unprotected characters only; characters with winter clothing don't even have to start rolling saves until the temperature is below 0 F, and even then only check once an hour. A survival check by someone on their party is good for another +2.

Are you sure about that? It makes references to "unprotected" in the below zero cold range as well.


It's true, rogue, and others, have issues as well. But the whole idea of a d4 hit dice just struck me.

Aquillion
2008-01-24, 02:20 PM
Are you sure about that? It makes references to "unprotected" in the below zero cold range as well.I think the layout makes it pretty clear:


An unprotected character in cold weather (below 40 F) must make a Fortitude save each hour (DC 15, + 1 per previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

...

In conditions of severe cold or exposure (below 0 F), an unprotected character ... Characters wearing winter clothing only need check once per hour for cold and exposure damage.
The clause about 'characters wearing winter clothing' (who are clearly considered 'protected' from the way they're set up as distinct from 'unprotected' characters) only applies to the second, below 0 F set of rules. The below 40 F rules only apply to characters who are unprotected -- in other words, characters who aren't dressed for the climate. Characters wearing winter clothes are unaffected by environmental cold as long as the temperature is at or above 0 F.

And, again, d4 + good con mod is probably going to be better than d6 + poor con mod. A rogue (depending on build) can have lots of stats to worry about; the wizard just has int and con. Depending on the method used for stats, it's quite possible the wizard could hit 6 or 7 hp at first level without too much difficulty.

Theli
2008-01-24, 02:27 PM
I don't get that from a literal reading. There is nothing which explicitly states that characters wearing cold weather clothing are considered "protected" with regards to cold weather. It may be that its only intention is to offer the +5 to fortitude saves.

Well, it might be worth asking this question on the Simple Q&A (By RAW) thread.


Methinks people around here are a tad sensitive to anything disparaging the might of the wizard. Hmm, I wonder why... :D

Aquillion
2008-01-24, 02:37 PM
I don't get that from a literal reading. There is nothing which explicitly states that characters wearing cold weather clothing are considered "protected" with regards to cold weather. It may be that its only intention is to offer the +5 to fortitude saves.Let me show you the full quote:
In conditions of severe cold or exposure (below 0 F), an unprotected character must make a Fortitude save once every 10 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check), taking 1d6 points of nonlethal damage on each failed save. A character who has the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and may be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well. Characters wearing winter clothing only need check once per hour for cold and exposure damage. It says "unprotected characters roll once every 10 minutes; characters wearing winter clothing only check once every hour." Characters wearing winter clothing are protected.


Methinks people around here are a tad sensitive to anything disparaging the might of the wizard. Hmm, I wonder why... :DNot really. There's lots of dangerous things to wizards at first level. People like to constantly imagine random scenerios to 'beat' them, though, and sometimes end up stretching the rules in all sorts of crazy ways. There are some problems with the D&D rules, yes, but characters (wizard or otherwise) don't suddenly drop unconsious from the cold in 35-degree weather while wearing a heavy winter coat... the rules here are straightforward, logical, and obvious.

Why are you insisting on trying to misread them to let barely-freezing (or even non-freezing) weather prove potentially crippling to properly-prepared characters in heavy winter clothing? It's a silly interpretation. It doesn't match the literal reading of the text, it doesn't match the logical meaning of the text, and it doesn't make even the slightest bit of common sense.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-24, 02:41 PM
It's still a bad rule, because it is -18 right now here, and while I think you're an idiot if you go around outside in jeans and a t-shirt, it is possible to do so for half an hour without collapsing, and by RAW I'm probably a 1st level expert, so I should be unconscious from it.

Yakk
2008-01-24, 02:42 PM
Extreme cold (below -20 F) deals 1d6 points of lethal damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Those wearing metal armor or coming into contact with very cold metal are affected as if by a chill metal spell.

hehehehhehehe.

Really.

You can bundle up and wander around in -30 degree weather. It doesn't do 1d6 points of lethal damage every minute. Really.

Now if you where naked, it would be that bad, or worse.

Theli
2008-01-24, 02:44 PM
Because in my experience, RAW doesn't always make great sense.

Why are you assuming that my intention is to construct such a scenario anyway?


Maybe I'm just curious about how the rules, read as written, affect low level characters. It may be the case that RAW still allows reasonably prepared characters to still fall unconscious due to somewhat chilly weather.

It may even be the case that WotC thought that just the +5 bonus was reasonable enough in light of the check only taking place every hour. (Since you heal it on a per hour basis.) And that low level characters should have this weakness.

Theli
2008-01-24, 02:47 PM
hehehehhehehe.

Really.

You can bundle up and wander around in -30 degree weather. It doesn't do 1d6 points of lethal damage every minute. Really.

Now if you where naked, it would be that bad, or worse.

Hmm, "bundling up" in the medieval ages compared to doing so today... It's possible that a collection of furs and fabrics isn't the equal to a modern day coat (or several). I don't know.

Chronos
2008-01-24, 02:59 PM
Actually, Con is more likely to be a wizard's third stat, not second. Dexterity helps with initiative, AC, and aiming rays, and not taking damage in the first place is better than having more HP. Plus, the standard race for wizards (elf, possibly grey) has a Dex bonus and a Con penalty. And it's not quite fair to say that melee types will have lower Con because of their MAD, since Con is one of the abilities that gives them MAD to begin with.


Hmm, "bundling up" in the medieval ages compared to doing so today... It's possible that a collection of furs and fabrics isn't the equal to a modern day coat (or several). I don't know.Even today, the best winter clothes get their insulation from some combination of fur and down. It's hard to make synthetic materials that work as well as the natural ones, for this purpose at least.

Frosty
2008-01-24, 03:10 PM
Actually, Fighters can afford to have non-spectacular con. They have high fort saves naturally, and they have bigger hit-die. I don't prioritize con with my fighters, but I pump Con like no other with my wizards.

Theli
2008-01-24, 03:11 PM
True, but you also have different designs and styles of stitching. The cold weather outfit itself is described as:


A cold weather outfit includes a wool coat, linen shirt, wool cap, heavy cloak, thick pants or skirt, and boots.

So you have a wool coat combined with a heavy cloak (probably hooded) and wool cap. I suppose the wool coat would probably be pretty effective, but in what style? There are no zippers...it may or may not be buttoned, but that's it.

So, again, I don't know.


Edit: Let me just mention how hilarious it is to me how a thick *SKIRT* can be part of a cold weather outfit.

Dervag
2008-01-24, 03:15 PM
Hmm, "bundling up" in the medieval ages compared to doing so today... It's possible that a collection of furs and fabrics isn't the equal to a modern day coat (or several). I don't know.I imagine it's the same. I mean, winters were just as cold in the Middle Ages. In fact, they were even colder what with the Little Ice Age and the whatnot. So one thing medievals definitely knew how to do was stay warm in the winter.


Even today, the best winter clothes get their insulation from some combination of fur and down. It's hard to make synthetic materials that work as well as the natural ones, for this purpose at least.Evolution has gotten rid of all the ineffective ways to design insulating fur, because the animals with ineffective fur freeze to death. And as you say, it's hard to design something more efficient than the product of a hundred million years or so of trial and error.


Edit: Let me just mention how hilarious it is to me how a thick *SKIRT* can be part of a cold weather outfit.Well, medieval women definitely wore skirts in cold climates. So it would be part of the outfit.

Theli
2008-01-24, 03:25 PM
I imagine it's the same. I mean, winters were just as cold in the Middle Ages. In fact, they were even colder what with the Little Ice Age and the whatnot. So one thing medievals definitely knew how to do was stay warm in the winter.

Either that, or most of them actually did die, leaving the survivors with more Con. :p


Evolution has gotten rid of all the ineffective ways to design insulating fur, because the animals with ineffective fur freeze to death. And as you say, it's hard to design something more efficient than the product of a hundred million years or so of trial and error.

Sure, but we're talking about taking those furs and then joining them together for our benefit.


Well, medieval women definitely wore skirts in cold climates. So it would be part of the outfit.

Really?!?!? [citation needed]

:p


Anyway, I really do see your point. But I would just like to see a clarification per RAW. It's this nagging character trait I have. It's really annoying.

Solo
2008-01-24, 03:25 PM
If it's cold enough to need Endure Elements, the entire party is going to have a problem....

Theli
2008-01-24, 03:29 PM
The sad thing is that "cold enough" in this case means 39F or less... Really not all that cold.

Though, again, this doesn't just apply to wizards by a long shot. (Please don't yell at me...)

bugsysservant
2008-01-24, 03:55 PM
Are you going to be in a cold environment for an extended period, or is this just hypothetical. I'm AFB, but IIRC, there is a feat in Frostburn which lets you ignore temperatures above zero and adds a bonus for below. Also, it lets you take a feat that grants cold resistance 5. Those two should cover you in terms of cold, regardless of class.

In terms of real life, I've never really been bothered by cold. In the winter I'll frequently go for walks up to four hours wearing only jeans and a tee shirt. The temperature, since I live in Vermont, is generally around ten degrees (Fahrenheit) with wind chill.

Swooper
2008-01-24, 03:59 PM
...all of this would make so much more sense to me if D&D didn't use the damn illogical Fahrenheit scale. :smallfrown: By straining my head, I can understand feet, inches, yards... even pounds if I try (although all of those should go away too). But Fahrenheit... I can never remember if it's 9/5 or 5/9 to turn it around to Celsius.

Theli
2008-01-24, 04:00 PM
I'm running a campaign where the weather suddenly turned cold and I have an academic interest in game rules besides. :p

I could certainly see a houserule where a cold weather outfit removed all penalties from a 0-39F temperature range, since it does make some amount of sense. But I would like to know if RAW already does this or not.

Besides that, I am curious in other methods of beating the cold...though I kinda hoped they'd be in core mechanic form and preferably not in the form of feats or class features.

Jayabalard
2008-01-24, 04:13 PM
But Fahrenheit... I can never remember if it's 9/5 or 5/9 to turn it around to Celsius.

to convert a temperature from F to C you subtract 32, and divide by 1.8 (or alternately multiply by 5/9)


39 F ~= 4 C

Voyager_I
2008-01-24, 04:15 PM
I'm seconding the "you're wrong" argument. I've personally run around outside for an hour wearing shorts and a T-shirt while snow was on the ground. It wasn't especially fun, but I certainly didn't take any nonlethal damage (on the other hand, I'm pretty cold-tolerant).

To be fair, it's a lot worse when you're continuously cold. I've been winter camping for a few days as well, and it never went below 17oF, even at night. Even properly clothed, it got very cold as soon as you stopped moving. The problem is that once you got cold, you stayed cold. There was nowhere to warm up. Since you don't move around at night, you startedevery morning cold with no real way to get warm.

On the other hand, it sure didn't kill anybody (although the Texan kid wasn't happy), and it was quite easy to work up a sweat while hiking, even with your warmest layers removed.

Theli
2008-01-24, 04:26 PM
It is measured by the hour. And it is just an approximation. And perhaps you just have more HP/fortitude than you give yourself credit for... (Which is very possible if they were basing the average health on medieval standards.) Or maybe 1st level characters just aren't balanced very well, which may in fact be the case.

Anyway, I'm really not interested anymore in real world comparisons for the mechanics. It's not going to be perfect, no matter what. What do the mechanics, that we all love to hate so much, really say?

Theli
2008-01-24, 05:00 PM
*reads Simple Q&A thread*

So Frostburn actually clarifies that that was the clothing item's intent. Awesome.

I'm happy now. :}

Felius
2008-01-24, 05:16 PM
If you wish the bother, you could probably do some kind of regional free trait that depends on the temperature your character was born. One from a cold region would take cold better than heat, and vice versa.

It pretty much reflects reality: I was born and live in tropical region. 86 F is considered normal and comfortable. If things go even near 50 F, it's VERY cold, and most persons will be using at least one coat, with a great deal of them using two or three. On the other hand, temperatures around 100 F most times won't even merit comments most times, or maybe just some "it's a little hot today". Temperatures like 110 F aren't at all rare in the summer, and although it's considered VERY hot, it's unheard of someone dying in this temperature.


By the way: Don't let your level 1 characters enter a Sauna. They will probably die in less than 4 minute.

Edit: Fixed the sauna death time (1 minute is just for the 1d4 low con types)

Theli
2008-01-24, 05:26 PM
By the way: Don't let your level 1 characters enter a Sauna. They will probably die in less than 1 minute.

Hah, hilarious. :p

I'd probably give them a hefty circumstance bonus to the save in light of the attire and humidity. It does make a little bit of sense. I'm sure people have been known to pass out in the sauna if they're not at least a little bit careful.

The regional free trait is certainly interesting enough. DnD seems to overly assume a mostly European world, with European climes, after all. I'll think about it.

Felius
2008-01-24, 05:37 PM
Hah, hilarious. :p

I'd probably give them a hefty circumstance bonus to the save in light of the attire and humidity. It does make a little bit of sense. I'm sure people have been known to pass out in the sauna if they're not at least a little bit careful.

The regional free trait is certainly interesting enough. DnD seems to overly assume a mostly European world, with European climes, after all. I'll think about it.

Nah, by the rules, it's 1d6 lethal damage by minute, no save, if the air temperature is over 140 F (or 60 C), which is a relatively low temperature for a sauna:


Extreme heat (air temperature over 140 F, fire, boiling water, lava) deals lethal damage. Breathing air in these temperatures deals 1d6 points of damage per minute (no save).

Theli
2008-01-24, 05:40 PM
You're right. I missed that the first go around, but I just saw that myself. Wow...

Very odd. And it really makes no real world sense.

Felius
2008-01-24, 05:43 PM
We shoud be making a list of silly things that can kill a level one character:


A house cat
More than one Minute in a Sauna


What am I missing?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-01-24, 05:43 PM
Writers. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale) Is there anything they can't mess up?

Icewalker
2008-01-24, 05:43 PM
Somebody in cold weather outfit + fur clothing according to Frostburn can handle down to -20 with no penalty. If you have just one, at 0 to -20 you have to save against 1d6 nonlethal cold 1/hour. Colder than -20 isn't really in discussion here, but after that you need alchemy, magic, or cold endurance feat or more.

Frosty
2008-01-24, 06:03 PM
According to various fantasy writers and artists, women can regularly go through freezing condition wearing nothing more than a CMB. :smalltongue:

Curmudgeon
2008-01-24, 06:33 PM
Nah, by the rules, it's 1d6 lethal damage by minute, no save, if the air temperature is over 140 F (or 60 C), which is a relatively low temperature for a sauna: Did you check that in Sandstorm? Just as Frostburn expanded on the basic DMG rules for cold temperatures, Sandstorm did the same for hot temperatures. The DMG has the 1d6 of cold damage per minute anywhere below -20 degrees, but Frostburn adds another temperature band and imposes this hazard only below -50 degrees. My guess is that with Sandstorm's rules you don't die immediately in a sauna. :smallsmile:

Theli
2008-01-24, 07:30 PM
Those rule expansions are also present in the Rules Compendium. (I am getting so much use out of this book...)

Suana style extreme heat (141-180F) still does lethal damage according to the RC every 10 minutes with no save... however, they have a protection type of "improvised shelter" which the sauna COULD qualify for. Because of its +3 protection level you actually don't suffer any penalty from that degree of heat. (Though obviously this is supposed to represent getting out of the sun or hot blowing air...so it may not be 100% appropriate.)

Incidentally, I stated earlier that you could recover from non-lethal damage while still taking it in the wild. This doesn't actually work and you have to warm up (or cool off) before it becomes a possibility.

Jack Zander
2008-01-24, 11:28 PM
How about things that can't kill a level 1 commoner, like the venom of a rattlesnake bite?

(Well, it can, but only if the commoner fails two DC 10 saves, and even then there is only a 19% chance of the venom killing the subject if he is completely unattended. As long as a character has 13 Con, he can take as many snake bites as he wants, provided he rests up in between them.)

Dervag
2008-01-24, 11:41 PM
Well, a lot of people do survive rattlesnake bites. But not that many.

Jack Zander
2008-01-24, 11:53 PM
Most of the people who do survive were either tended to properly (Heal check succeeded), or the snake had already bitten something that day and there was no venom (or not enough) to afflict them.

The scenario I assumed was that you sat there and took the bite, and just waited to see what would happen.