PDA

View Full Version : Whats the lowest level save or die spell?



Emperor Tippy
2008-01-25, 02:05 AM
As the title says.

Phantasmal Killer is level 4 but requires 2 saves and is mind effecting.

So whats the lowest level save or die for each save type and what type are they (mind effecting, etc.)?

I'm making an Incantatrix that can drop a -20 level Enervation on a target and I'm looking for a spell to use as the finisher.

All 3.5 books are fair game. Oh feel free to mention any other save or lose spells. Or any save-or-die/save-or-lose that don't allow SR.

sikyon
2008-01-25, 02:18 AM
Are you talking about the level they become available at? Ie. are you looking for the best save or die spells at each level?

Rachel Lorelei
2008-01-25, 02:19 AM
Hideous Laughter, level 2, shuts them down for long enough to easily kill them. But once they have -20 to everything (and -100 HP), why not just have someone hit'em a couple of times?

sikyon
2008-01-25, 02:24 AM
I would suggest sleep over hideous laughter. Minutes per level instead of rounds per level, helpless instead of just prone, and it affects animals and different types don't get a pesky bonus to their saving throw. Of course, there is the HD limit but at level 1 when you get you don't really fight anything with more than 4HD.

Nebo_
2008-01-25, 02:30 AM
I'm making an Incantatrix that can drop a -20 level Enervation on a target and I'm looking for a spell to use as the finisher.


I'd say that a -20 level enervation is a pretty damned good finisher on its own.

Voyager_I
2008-01-25, 02:31 AM
The -20 HD thing would probably help qualify for sleep, although it's not really a guarantee with the big ones...

Charm Person?

Khanderas
2008-01-25, 02:57 AM
The -20 HD thing would probably help qualify for sleep, although it's not really a guarantee with the big ones...

Charm Person?
The irony involved.
*rips out 20 levels / HD with negative energy*
"- Hey. Lets be friends. "

Tola
2008-01-25, 03:05 AM
I dunno about that....

*Blasts with Energy as before....*

(Saruman-Voice)"It would be wise to serve me."

"A....Alright....I'll...do....whatever you want...."

(Saruman)"A prudent decision."

Adumbration
2008-01-25, 03:08 AM
Then there's the Death domain ability, which let's you roll d6s equal to your cleric level, and possibly kill the enemy. Not a save-or-die spell, though. Just a nice finisher against low-hp enemies.

Talic
2008-01-25, 03:10 AM
Sudden Maximize, Sudden Empower Enervation?

That's the lowest "no save, just die" I can think of. At least, at the earliest level you can cast it.

Voyager_I
2008-01-25, 03:28 AM
Wait, I know! How 'bout a -20 level Enervation?

"Die!"

"No, really."

Then control the Wraith Wight and have it finish off the next person you Enervate, creating another Wraith Wight under its (and vicariously, your) control. Continue until bored.

Dhavaer
2008-01-25, 03:43 AM
Wait, I know! How 'bout a -20 level Enervation?

"Die!"

"No, really."

Then control the Wraith and have it finish off the next person you Enervate, creating another Wraith under its (and vicariously, your) control. Continue until bored.

Enervating someone to death would make a wight, not a wraith.

Voyager_I
2008-01-25, 03:52 AM
Oops...

"One, two, five! three!"

Demented
2008-01-25, 07:01 AM
As useless as they come:

Death Knell - Kills anything that's already dying. Level 2.

Chronos
2008-01-25, 05:18 PM
As useless as they come:

Death Knell - Kills anything that's already dying. Level 2.I think the primary purpose of Death Knell is to get the temporary HP and caster level boost. It provides a game mechanic to use for the iconic scene where the evil cultist is sacrificing someone on a dark altar to gain power.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-25, 06:13 PM
Well...there's Power Word: Pain, which metamagics nicely. Maximized Chained Empowered Power Word: Pain takes a 9th level slot (or a 6th, if you Arcane Thesis PW:P, or less if you have Incantatrix and/or some other options), but hits the primary target for 32+2d4 rounds of 6+1d3 damage (average: 35 rounds of 8 damage, or 280 total), and hits all the alternates for 32+2d4 rounds of 4+1d2 damage (average: 35 rounds of 4.5 damage, or 192.5 total). No save, SR Yes, and verbal component only. Tack a Fell Drain on there too for some extra negative-levelage if you've got the space, or make it Silent so that you cast it with but a thought.

It's a slow kill, but a kill it is.

bosssmiley
2008-01-26, 09:32 AM
Level 1: Sleep
You fail the save, they stab you to death while you slumber. :smallwink:

Armads
2008-01-26, 11:20 AM
Eh, a -20 level enervation kills everything with 40HD and below, due to the way negative levels work (they -1 off the effective level, and kill when they equal subject level, so 20 negative levels kill 40HD creatures). Is a Save-or-die really that necessary?

Otherwise, sleep or color spray might work well.

Theli
2008-01-26, 12:31 PM
Eh, a -20 level enervation kills everything with 40HD and below, due to the way negative levels work (they -1 off the effective level, and kill when they equal subject level, so 20 negative levels kill 40HD creatures).

I really don't get what you mean by this. Why exactly is each negative level considered double?


Edit:


-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).


A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain.

Hmm... I'm not sure about that interpretation. I don't think the reduced effective level affects that part of the negative level... That's really iffy.

Douglas
2008-01-26, 12:38 PM
Each negative level gives a -1 penalty to effective level. So a 40th level character with 20 negative levels has an effective level of 20. A character with negative levels equal to his current level dies. 20 negative levels = effective level 20, so the level 40 character is dead.

This ignores the rest of the sentence ("or drained below 1st level"), however, which clearly indicates that the instant death rule is meant to relate to the undrained level total.

Theli
2008-01-26, 12:56 PM
The rules compendium clarifies it somewhat by referring to "current level or Hit Dice". Since drained levels don't actually reduce hit dice, the correct interpretation seems to be that you must drain all 40 levels to kill a level 40 creature this way.

Voyager_I
2008-01-26, 02:39 PM
Each negative level gives a -1 penalty to effective level. So a 40th level character with 20 negative levels has an effective level of 20. A character with negative levels equal to his current level dies. 20 negative levels = effective level 20, so the level 40 character is dead.

This ignores the rest of the sentence ("or drained below 1st level"), however, which clearly indicates that the instant death rule is meant to relate to the undrained level total.

Seconded.

By the power of words!

Mark Hall
2008-01-26, 02:49 PM
Outside of ones that require a secondary action (like sleep), I think your best killer is, indeed, Phantasmal Killer.

Kurald Galain
2008-01-26, 03:18 PM
Second edition had Chromatic Orb, a first-level spell which was a straight save-or-die effect (requiring a touch attack, iirc) as long as its caster was 11th-level or higher.

Fax Celestis
2008-01-26, 03:27 PM
If you could find a way to consistently get the high effects (like petrification) on spells like prismatic spay or prismatic ray, that'd work too.

Douglas
2008-01-26, 03:45 PM
prismatic spay
Does my cat end up rainbow-colored after using that? :smalltongue:

Fax Celestis
2008-01-26, 03:46 PM
Does my cat end up rainbow-colored after using that? :smalltongue:

Depends. Did you roll an 8 on the 1-8 table?