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Idea Man
2008-01-27, 12:35 AM
I have a caster in my campaign who's gone to the considerable length of making his ioun stone of regeneration permanently invisible. I just had the nasty notion of a gish with see invisibility up cast an orb spell at it.

How long would it take him to notice it was gone? Would his head be showered in debris? Should that be a wisdom check if he doesn't guess right away?

Ralfarius
2008-01-27, 12:37 AM
He'd probably figure it out at about the point that he stopped recovering from wounds so quickly, if nothing else.

horseboy
2008-01-27, 12:39 AM
How good is his listen skill?

seedjar
2008-01-27, 01:08 AM
Why take it in combat, when he might get hurt and notice it's absence? Surely there are some thieving antagonists out there with the ability to see an invisible object...
~Joe

ShadowSiege
2008-01-27, 01:26 AM
Destroying items is a good way of ticking off a player. Steal it, or dispel the invisibility (I'm assuming he used permanency to accomplish the deed).

Idea Man
2008-01-27, 02:05 AM
Awww, but I wanna break it! :smalltongue:

You're right about the healing thing, Ralfarius, but I think I could string him along for a while. He's not the only one I can hit.

His listen sucks, horseboy. Straight wizard/archmage, no drive to be practical, just powerful.

I suppose stealing it would be a bit more fun. I could use a powerful theives' guild I've been planning on introducing. It has "side-quest" written all over it.

I'll probably save the horrors of destruction of magic items when I conk them with a Mordenkainen's disjunction. Probably. Well, maybe a sunder or two.

Farmer42
2008-01-27, 02:14 AM
Be careful with disjunction. I've seen players very nearly throw the table at the DM when he used it. It's more than kinda cheap. Suddenly depriving players of their hard earned swag makes them sad. Especially the arrow cushions for the casters, who have a vested interest in their weapons and armor carrying a lot of magical potency.

Emperor Tippy
2008-01-27, 02:36 AM
Disjunction is fine, you just have to replace magic items often. Treat WBL as how much wealth the player should have at any given time at that level. IF the player gets disjoined he finds a few scrolls of gate and gets to gate in some solars for free wishes to get his gear back.

Voyager_I
2008-01-27, 02:46 AM
So, you're going to punish him for trying to defend his gear by specifically and somewhat esoterically targeting it for no other reason than that he tried to protect it? I don't think I approve, to be honest.

Also, the player should probably notice immediately. I'm pretty sure you get to know what happens to the magical items you're currently using.

Baerdog7
2008-01-27, 03:16 AM
I see absolutely no reason as a DM to target my players' magical items and equipment with the intention of destroying them, either by sundering or with magic like Mordenkainen's Disjunction. What's the point? The players have worked hard for these items (probably over several levels) and to have them destroyed seems more than a little unsporting of the DM. Remember: DnD is not a DM v. PC game! Both sides have to work together to have an enjoyable time and I can say as a player that the idea of losing my magic loot is not a fun one. :smallmad:

However, IF a magic item on a player's person were to be destroyed (especially one that they specifically spent a lot of money on) they should know immediately. Seriously, trying to destroy their item and then saying that they don't notice it? It's hard to get much lower than that and if you're seriously considering such a thing, get the hell out from behind the DM screen.

SoD
2008-01-27, 03:34 AM
My opinion of Disjunction? It's a nasty spell. Every time a player uses it, I make a mental note. Then I can use it once. He uses it again? I use it again. Three times in one session? Fair game from now on.

Note, the numbers change depending on how I'm feeling at the time, just so my players don't suddenly 'A-ha! I'm only useing it twice a session from now on! Haha!' me.

DementedFellow
2008-01-27, 10:14 AM
IF the OP didn't want the player to have the Ioun stone that way, he should have handled THEN, but as such has allowed it into play. It would be unsporting as a DM to go after a stone you allowed in the first place.

I've seen plenty of DMs house-rule "No Ioun Stones" and no one complains, but if you say they are A-OK then go around and destroy it, it's deceitful and wicked.

John Campbell
2008-01-27, 11:33 AM
My last wizard character had a permanent see invisible up. If he saw an opponent walking around with an invisible ioun stone, he'd totally go after it, especially if the opponent gave some indication that he didn't see invisible. He wouldn't attempt to destroy it, though... that'd be petty and pointless. He'd steal it. Mage hand! Now I regenerate!

Or, hmm, I guess mage hand doesn't work on magical objects. Telekinesis, then, though it's less obviously worthwhile than burning a simple cantrip, and I pretty much always had mage hand prepped, but telekinesis only if I was expecting to need it.

But, at any rate, it's not an unreasonable action, though I would go with stealing rather than destroying. If nothing else, having someone steal it leaves the option open that the PC could track it down and take it back.

Chronos
2008-01-27, 02:01 PM
A rogue can steal something visible which is against your skin without you noticing. For something which isn't even in contact with you, and which you can't see but your enemy (hypothetically) can? I guess I'd make the thief roll a Sleight of Hand check, but with a hefty circumstance bonus (at least +4, maybe as much as +8, depending on the other circumstances). Succeed versus the wizard's Spot (which is probably abyssmal), and I see no reason at all why the wizard should notice, until he takes it off to sleep or something.

It's hard to justify destroying it, though. Remember, the NPCs in a game do not have as their primary goal trying to make things harder for the players. Their primary goal is to make things easier for themselves. Stealing an ioun stone makes sense: I, the thief, benefit by virtue of now having an ioun stone. Sundering a weapon might make sense: A guy who uses a weapon will be a much easier opponent without his weapon, and then I can loot all of his other stuff (and I might not have been able to use the weapon, anyway). But destroying an enemy's ioun stone does not make sense: It probably doesn't provide enough of an edge during a single battle to make the fight significantly easier, and I can definitely use it myself if I can get it.

Roderick_BR
2008-01-27, 02:26 PM
Oh, it's one case of "player wants to try a cool idea, and the DM will go out of his way just to piss him off" scenarios...
If he'll notice it? Maybe he'll notice someone hurling orbs at his head, and the probably explosion of when it hits something above his head
But that's just an idea.

Idea Man
2008-01-27, 03:36 PM
It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy that you want to warn me off about screwing over my players. Honest. I hadn't really intended this to be a post where I'm trying to make them all walk away from my table. If I may explain...

We're playing a high-level game for the first (and probably last) time without any significant houseruling to regulate spells, magic item availability, and prestige classes. This is so I can really get a feel for what's wrong, what's right, what my players like and don't like, and to enjoy high-power butt kicking. :smallbiggrin: As such, I have an almost-over-the-top barabarian, a blaster ultimate magus, a near-batman archmage, and a suboptimal annointed knight. They're easy to please ("Is it time to kill something yet?"), but it's nearly impossible to challenge their magical power without overdoing it, given my campaign setup. I've more or less resolved to not houserule anything unless I absolutely have to.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'd love to abuse my power, torment their characters, and come out on top. :smallamused: But that's not the goal. If they have vulnerable equipment, it could be threatened with destruction at some point, and should occasionally. The warriors have adamantine weapons, heavily magical or reinforced with rituals, so breaking their stuff requires a special encounter. The wizards only have so much stuff that can be broken, although the archmage has a staff-familiar I've been eyeing.

I just finished a section of my game where they got back a ring the BBEG took from one of their characters and used it to scry on them while they went around doing their heroics. I don't want to steal too much, 'cause now they're paranoid (and a little disheartened). Attempting to destroy their equipment will be a more 'honest' way do threaten their equipment. I'm just doing this to spice up the fights, as beating them down only goes so far.

Thank you all for your concern, ideas, and comments. It helps to get other people's perspective, so that I don't come down like righteous fury on my players. I prefer to come from the shadows...

@Emperor Tippy: I agree about the thought concerning the use of disjunction. If I use that, they should get a big payoff to compensate. Sheesh, that's gonna add a day of game design! :smalltongue:

bosssmiley
2008-01-27, 03:50 PM
Why on earth would the gish trash a perfectly good slotless magical item when it can be stolen and used by him against the PC instead? :smallconfused:

Disjunction, sundering strikes, and attacks to specifically destroy items just leave less magic around for everyone. Do the PCs habitually trash potential lewts? Then why should NPCs?

Steal the gear and wave it in the players' faces; you have plot hooks (either a trip to the quasi-plane of Mineral to loot some new ioun stones, or a vengeance kick against the thief). Trash gear and all you have is sulky players.

Mark Hall
2008-01-27, 04:03 PM
Steal the gear and wave it in the players' faces; you have plot hooks (either a trip to the quasi-plane of Mineral to loot some new ioun stones,).

Wow... that's beautiful. That's almost exactly where they came from in Vance's work.

And I was going to suggest an AMF.

bosssmiley
2008-01-27, 04:08 PM
Wow... that's beautiful. That's almost exactly where they came from in Vance's work.

And I was going to suggest an AMF.

Planescape "Guide to the Inner Planes" ($4 on paizo.com) had a great section on mining for ioun stones in the - insanely dangerous - Mineral-Positive border zone. Totally worth the price.

Brawls
2008-01-27, 08:02 PM
As a player, I can definitely tell you that getting your stuff destroyed is full of suck. This from the fighter who failed his save versus Flame Strike and thought he lost his masterwork katana (a major backstory plot hook devised to give his character a reason to be in the area where the campaign is occurring, as he is trying to deliver it to his slain master's family). However, some kind folks on these boards elucidated me to the mechanics of hardness, item destruction, and fire damage, so my sword was damaged but not destroyed in the long run. We play in a fairly low magic (item) and wealth campaign. It is one of our DM's disturbing proclivities designed to keep control on the game.:smallfrown:

Still, we now face a BBEG with an Ioun Stone and I have an irristible urge to step up for some batting practice.:smallbiggrin: My character is not particularly attached to items, beyond their obvious use as tools, so sundering the BBEG's Ioun Stone isn't completely out of line. However, as a player I reiterate, having your stuff destroyed really blows and reeks of DM vindictiveness. As other's have mentioned Mordekainen's Disjunction is really low. The game isupposed to be fun for everyone!

Brawls

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-01-27, 09:29 PM
A rogue can steal something visible which is against your skin without you noticing. For something which isn't even in contact with you, and which you can't see but your enemy (hypothetically) can? I guess I'd make the thief roll a Sleight of Hand check, but with a hefty circumstance bonus (at least +4, maybe as much as +8, depending on the other circumstances). Succeed versus the wizard's Spot (which is probably abyssmal), and I see no reason at all why the wizard should notice, until he takes it off to sleep or something.
Mind you, the character probably notices the sorcerer throw the orb his direction just before it discharges in front of him. And if the stone breaks apart upon being destroyed, we can assume a few shards hit him. That would be automatically noticeable.

Even if those somehow escaped his notice, he'd notice within one hour when his regeneration failed to work. (As has been mentioned above.)

Mark Hall
2008-01-27, 10:30 PM
As a player, I can definitely tell you that getting your stuff destroyed is full of suck. This from the fighter who failed his save versus Flame Strike and thought he lost his masterwork katana (a major backstory plot hook devised to give his character a reason to be in the area where the campaign is occurring, as he is trying to deliver it to his slain master's family).

Gods, I remember Drujjt the Uthgardt barbarian, fighting a fire elemental, having most of his armor and clothing burn off of him... our wizard had to cast Armor on him so his AC would drop to around 5... only thing that survived that fight was the Flame of the North... I think we won by killing the guy's familiar, and him dying from system shock.

Chronos
2008-01-28, 02:32 AM
Mind you, the character probably notices the sorcerer throw the orb his direction just before it discharges in front of him. And if the stone breaks apart upon being destroyed, we can assume a few shards hit him. That would be automatically noticeable.

Even if those somehow escaped his notice, he'd notice within one hour when his regeneration failed to work. (As has been mentioned above.)I was referring to stealing the stone, much quieter than destroying it. You might still get away with destroying the stone without the wearer noticing (the orb that hit it would look like it was aimed at the character himself, and the breaking itself might go unnoticed in the general chaos of combat), but it'd be a much lower Spot DC.

And he'd only notice the lack of regeneration if he were injured at that time, which he might not be (especially if the stone is lost in a non-combat situation, as is likely for theft).

Funkyodor
2008-01-28, 02:45 AM
When I think of this stealing situation, I conjure up images of a lowly street peddler trying to beg for coin through crappy presdigitation, but really using superior pick pockets ability to earn his keep. "Oi, whats that behind your ear gentle sir? Why that appears to be a silver! *opposite hand Yoink! there goes the Ioun Stone* Why thank you kind sir, for the lovely shiny silver!" Make him a Robin Hood type if you want to have him as a recurring "Item Removal" villain.

Cuddly
2008-01-28, 02:58 AM
Why on earth would the gish trash a perfectly good slotless magical item when it can be stolen and used by him against the PC instead? :smallconfused:

Because you're one against four, and you know that at that level, half a character's power is in his equipment. Presuming winning is more valuable than equipment you [i]may[i] loot, but probably won't, since you left the party at full effectiveness, it's better to start smashing.

Voyager_I
2008-01-28, 04:27 AM
Because you're one against four, and you know that at that level, half a character's power is in his equipment. Presuming winning is more valuable than equipment you [i]may[i] loot, but probably won't, since you left the party at full effectiveness, it's better to start smashing.

If you're about to get ganked by an entire party, are you really going to spend your first precious, precious action sundering the Wizard's Ioun Stone? That might rank slightly higher than performing an interpretive dance as a Full Round Action, but below pretty much anything else I can think of that doesn't actively hurt you...and that's just because I'm giving the NPC a little credit for probably not knowing that the particular Ioun Stone is basically worthless in battle.

Also, the Wizard knows he has an Ioun Stone floating around his head, so he'll probably be very aware of anyone street urchins trying to pull "magic" tricks around his ears. Sleight of hand doesn't actually specify anything anyhow, but it probably isn't the best way to roleplay it.

Khanderas
2008-01-28, 05:22 AM
Greater crosbowbolt of OMGWTFSlaying of instant death, without possibility of parole ressurrection from an ambush by a hired assassin / rogue.

Only it cinematically hits the invisible ion stone that breaks into useless shards. But it saved the Wizards life. (Deus ex-DM)

(Over the top here and it IS a thin plot, but still better then just a random disjuncion. Speaks volumes about disjunction really, though I admit it could be a desperation move in the face of overwhelming odds. A disjunct or die and get looted deal)

squishycube
2008-01-28, 05:36 AM
Also, the Wizard knows he has an Ioun Stone floating around his head, so he'll probably be very aware of anyone street urchins trying to pull "magic" tricks around his ears. Sleight of hand doesn't actually specify anything anyhow, but it probably isn't the best way to roleplay it.
And how would you model that in d20? Ah yes, with spot.
Hmm, what? Oh he didn't take ranks. Okay then...

Roderick_BR
2008-01-28, 06:22 AM
Hmm. I didn't intend to say that your intention was to screw with playes, but that may sound like it. I have too many DMs that actually went out of their way to screw with players, for no reason.
Players get lots of fire resistance and cold weapons. Suddenly, lots of ice creatures pop out of nowhere in an area not suitable for ice-subtypes.
Player get cool magic gear. Some random NPC just happens to have the exactly power to render it useless/steal/destroy the gear.
Player has an tactical idea combining spells, and abilities from the party's members to avoid causalities. The next enemy knows exactly what spells and features are being used and how to counter it.
Cue the player with maxed move silently, and hide skills, waiting motionless for several rounds, waiting for the orc guards to get distracted, before shoting an arrow into the small goblin, from inside the jungle, and the ENTIRE ORC CAMP notices the player hidden, pinpointing perfectly where the arrow came from (happened in one campaign a friend wrote, I swear).
I'm just saying that you need to be careful to not force the story too much. "What? someone stole my invisible ioun stone? Why? And how they knew I had something invisible? Why they just happened to use see invisibility against me, when I'm fully visible?"
A well played steal may sound fun, but when it becomes DM fiat, things get weird and boring.

But yeah, stealing it is better than try to destroy it (the character will definitively see it), or dispell it (the ioun stone will become visible, and fall, either hitting the character's head or shoulder, or hitting the ground and making a sound anyway).

Voyager_I
2008-01-28, 06:42 AM
And how would you model that in d20? Ah yes, with spot.
Hmm, what? Oh he didn't take ranks. Okay then...

I know, I'm just saying, if he tries to roleplay it with someone pulling a coin out of his ear, don't be surprised if the Wizard immediately leaps away and checks his floaty little friend (possibly followed by Hold Person or some such). Just have some unknown miscreant operate discreetly, roll the dice, and let him know he didn't see anything. Be fair, though: it's entirely reasonable for his Ranger buddy standing beside him to have a chance to notice Mr. Shifty fingers in action.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-01-28, 08:43 AM
I was referring to stealing the stone, much quieter than destroying it.
Mm. Okay. Thought the bit about stealing was mostly a baseline comparison for what a character can and cannot notice.


I know, I'm just saying, if he tries to roleplay it with someone pulling a coin out of his ear, don't be surprised if the Wizard immediately leaps away and checks his floaty little friend (possibly followed by Hold Person or some such). Just have some unknown miscreant operate discreetly, roll the dice, and let him know he didn't see anything.
Indeed. Why should the would-be theif draw attention to himself or herself? Just use a bit o' Hide to get behind the wizard in a crowd, and he's got the stone just fine. :smallbiggrin:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-28, 08:51 AM
Just use a bit o' Hide to get behind the wizard in a crowd, and he's got the stone just fine. :smallbiggrin:

There is no facing in D&D. :smalltongue:
(This is a joke)

No, I suggest the kleptomaniac pixie rogue with nondetection (just in case) as a solution to all treasure balancing worries a DM might have. :smallcool:

Charity
2008-01-28, 09:12 AM
Silvanos I am shocked, that's not nearly sneaky enough steal it in the night, after having passed a few notes to the other players that prevoke responses... get them to think someone in the party has robbed them.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-28, 09:21 AM
Silvanos I am shocked, that's not nearly sneaky enough steal it in the night, after having passed a few notes to the other players that prevoke responses... get them to think someone in the party has robbed them.

Yes that does give it another layer I did not even think about....

I think the reason I did not think of that is that I only hand out treasure if enough popcorn tribute has been paid.:smallamused:

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-01-28, 09:34 AM
There is no facing in D&D. :smalltongue:
(This is a joke)
Yes! Behind is an abstraction! So get behind the wizard abstractly!

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-28, 09:42 AM
Yes! Behind is an abstraction! So get behind the wizard abstractly!

Ahh you mean as a support for the wizard. Now I get it. :smalltongue: