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Avor
2008-01-27, 06:33 AM
Does takeing it allow you to wield what would normaly be two hander weapons with only hand?

The Compleate warrior is iffy to me, and in Never winter Nights, that's exactly what it allows you to do? Or is it just a thing for halflings so they can use grown up weapons for a change?

Leon
2008-01-27, 06:51 AM
As a Small PC you can use a small Longsword (1d6) in one hand, you can use a medium Longsword (1d8) in 2 hands

Monkey grip allows you to use that 1d8 in one hand

So with a 2hander by default it should be the same,

Lolzords
2008-01-27, 06:55 AM
As a Small PC you can use a small Longsword (1d6) in one hand, you can use a medium Longsword (1d8) in 2 hands

Monkey grip allows you to use that 1d8 in one hand

So with a 2hander by default it should be the same,

Yeah, somewhere it's got a list of weapon equivilencies, a medium greatsword counts as a large longsword.

Avor
2008-01-27, 07:18 AM
Swords are one thing, I was thinking along the lines of pole arms, glaves, long spears, stuff like that.

Fighters with towershields and spers are funny. I was wondering if that's how it works.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-27, 07:21 AM
Does takeing it allow you to wield what would normaly be two hander weapons with only hand?

No. You can wield a weapon one size category large without increasing effort.
A small character can wield a medium long sword in one hand etc.

It does not allow you to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand.

Charity
2008-01-27, 07:24 AM
Monkey grip does not work that way should be stickied.

Adumbration
2008-01-27, 07:32 AM
By the way, has anyone seen the picture of the epic feat Oversized Weapon Fighting, or along those lines? It was in Unearthed Arcana, and it is the sole reason why I may one day play an Epic Halfling.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-27, 07:33 AM
Monkey grip does not work that way should be stickied.

It has been a while since we had the last question relating to Monkey Grip though.

The problem is that if you have no experience with this board and the question about Monkey Grip is your first you might get the wrong impression if you are jumped by 20 posters all screaming "Monkey Grip does not work that way."
It doesn't, of course, but still.

Charity
2008-01-27, 07:41 AM
It's not as bad as it used to be...

i think in these guys defence it used to work that way in 3.0... though don't quote me on that.

Kioran
2008-01-27, 07:46 AM
If it worked for a guy wieling one longspear and a tower shield, it would actually have a purpose and wouldnīt be that bad. But then, thereīd be people whoīd use double guisarmes or whatever. Numbnuts, the same kind of people that double-wield lances. *facepalm*
So, thatīs why monkey grip doesnīt work that way.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-01-27, 07:50 AM
i think in these guys defence...

Now don't you go around making up excuses. :smalltongue:

#Raptor
2008-01-27, 08:42 AM
If it worked for a guy wieling one longspear and a tower shield, it would actually have a purpose and wouldnīt be that bad. But then, thereīd be people whoīd use double guisarmes or whatever.

I thought its already possible to TWF a reach weapon - the Kusari-gama... wich is kinda like a 1-h spiked chain, so unlike with a guisarme you can attack enemys 5 and 10 ft away.

Charity
2008-01-27, 08:54 AM
As it goes I think you can dual weild lances already as well.

Gardakan
2008-01-27, 08:58 AM
It's simple. It's make a large weapon one category less...

Roderick_BR
2008-01-27, 02:38 PM
Newer Winter Nights 1 or 2? I don't recall NWN1 having monkey grip, but if it does, it's the 3.0 version, that allowed you to use a great sword in one hand. In 3.5, it allows you to use a weapon one size category larger.
For example, you can use a medium longsword (1d8) one or two handed, and a (2d6)greatsword two handed. With this feat, you can use a large longsword (2d6) one or two handed, and a large greatsword (3d6) two handed.

Arutema
2008-01-27, 03:02 PM
Somewhat confusingly, Neverwinter Nights 2 still uses 3.0 weapon size rules, and has the 3.0 implementation of Monkey Grip.

Mark Hall
2008-01-27, 03:20 PM
Somewhat confusingly, Neverwinter Nights 2 still uses 3.0 weapon size rules, and has the 3.0 implementation of Monkey Grip.

Because, quite frankly, 3.0 size rules were better. They fit better with the genre (q.v. Bilbo getting Sting), made treasure more flexible within a party (this is either a shortsword for the fighter or a longsword for the halfling), and simply required less book-keeping.

UglyPanda
2008-01-27, 03:27 PM
Those rules are still there, it's just that you take a penalty (-4 or -2) for doing it. The FAQ has a chart for it.

Kioran
2008-01-27, 03:32 PM
I thought its already possible to TWF a reach weapon - the Kusari-gama... wich is kinda like a 1-h spiked chain, so unlike with a guisarme you can attack enemys 5 and 10 ft away.

Yes, by the rules it is a light, thus one handed (not the weapon category) weapon. Common sense, however, tells you it isnīt - a Kusarigama is a length of weighted chain attached to the lower end of a Kamaīs grip. It can only be used two handed in real life (one to swing the chain, the other for the kama - the kama holds the chain taut, otherwise slinging around the chain would create a counterrotation below the hand swinging the chain, most likely hitting the user in the face). Itīs light because one should be capable of using it with weapon finesse and is easy to conceal, not because itīs light andeasy to wield in one hand. They also made it to light, but I digress.

And yes, one can already dual-wield lances per RAW. Any player, however, who has his character "swing a lance two-handed" or dual wields them at my table sees the Character die painfully because the lance splinters and those splinters embed themselves firmly in the characters left eye and brain.
Seriously, that rule was written to enable a character to wield lance and shield on horseback, and nothing else. That is mainly because the rider doesnīt need his own strength save for keeping himself in the saddle, b ut has considerable difficulty aiming with the lance. That means that:
- the rider doesnīt have any attention to spare for a second lance
- normally wouldnīt even be able to apply his own Strength bonus - Iīd perhaps use the mountīs strength bonus, since the horseīs muscles do all the heavy lifting that goes before all the stabbing and impaling.

For simplicities sake I still use the riderīs strength bonus - x1. But both are cases where common sense does and should trump RAW.

Instead of risking rules-lawyers picking apart a rule for the sake of twinkage, WotC worded 3.5 Monkey Grip in a very restrictive manner. Seems a bit heavy handed, but experience has clearly shown it to be necessary..........

UglyPanda
2008-01-27, 03:44 PM
I think the only reason anyone bothered dual-wielding lances in 3.0 was that power attack didn't work the way it does now and ambidexterity removed most of the penalty. I'm not exactly sure.

Of course, in 3.5, it's much better to always hold your lance with two hands.

Worira
2008-01-27, 03:45 PM
Yes, by the rules it is a light, thus one handed (not the weapon category) weapon. Common sense, however, tells you it isnīt - a Kusarigama is a length of weighted chain attached to the lower end of a Kamaīs grip. It can only be used two handed in real life (one to swing the chain, the other for the kama - the kama holds the chain taut, otherwise slinging around the chain would create a counterrotation below the hand swinging the chain, most likely hitting the user in the face). Itīs light because one should be capable of using it with weapon finesse and is easy to conceal, not because itīs light andeasy to wield in one hand. They also made it to light, but I digress.

The spiked chain is finessable, and it's two handed. The rules are completely clear here: light weapons can be wielded one-handed. Common sense isn't a good argument for DnD rules: common sense suggests that getting shot 20 times with a crossbow would kill you, but it won't even slow a 20th level barbarian down.

Mark Hall
2008-01-27, 03:47 PM
Those rules are still there, it's just that you take a penalty (-4 or -2) for doing it. The FAQ has a chart for it.

Hence the note about the problems with 3.5s rules. Unless you are trying to use something beyond your size to handle, the RAW in 3.5 is pointless complication.

Voyager_I
2008-01-27, 04:47 PM
For the record, Two-Handed lances (known as Kontos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kontos[/url)) did exist historically, so it isn't actually beyond the realm of possibility. However, they weren't lances in the Medieval sense of the word.

Kioran
2008-01-27, 05:51 PM
The spiked chain is finessable, and it's two handed. The rules are completely clear here: light weapons can be wielded one-handed. Common sense isn't a good argument for DnD rules: common sense suggests that getting shot 20 times with a crossbow would kill you, but it won't even slow a 20th level barbarian down.

I do not contest your reading by RAW. I also think common sense shouldnīt trump all, but if you cannot visualize, in a serious fashion, whatever your character is doing, itīs going to kill verisimilitude, and, by extension, the gaming experience. Can you seriously imagine some spinning two chains of 2-3 meters length, with sharp sickles attached?
I canīt. I also canīt imagine spiked chains, so I usually have the Kusari-gama kill the spiked chain and loot itīs remains. I like a bit of verisimilitude, even in more cinematic sequences (which I do like). Anything that is "on screen" for more than maybe a few minutes should have an explanation consistent with the game īs world. I can ignore multiple wounds of more impressive calibre if thereīs a change of scenes in between. Like, for example, in Max Payne 2 - He should be dead halfway through the second level, what with all the untreated gunshot wounds and only painkillers for treatment. But the scene changes, and since the wounds are not glaringly obvious, one can ignore them and sustain suspension of disbelief, as long as one isnīt thinking too hard. Two Kusarigama? Not so much. That doesnīt even work if you ever catch more than a glimpse of it.

But then, Iīm also likely to be a grognard/too old fashioned (at 22 :smalleek: ).

Deepblue706
2008-01-27, 05:55 PM
Of course, in 3.5, it's much better to always hold your lance with two hands.

Are you absolutely certain of that? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69760)

Voyager_I
2008-01-27, 06:16 PM
Ubercharger says "yes".

(I couldn't find a link)

Fhaolan
2008-01-27, 06:29 PM
If it worked for a guy wieling one longspear and a tower shield, it would actually have a purpose and wouldnīt be that bad. But then, thereīd be people whoīd use double guisarmes or whatever. Numbnuts, the same kind of people that double-wield lances. *facepalm*
So, thatīs why monkey grip doesnīt work that way.

At one point I was investigating joining the SCA, and I was turned off by the fellow who was the top knight, or duke, or king, or whatever the title was, because he insisted on dual-weilding halberds in his sparring. That was a while back, so he's probably not there anymore, but it really put me off the organization.

Fawsto
2008-01-27, 09:59 PM
Since MG does not allow you to 2WF with bigger weapons in the offhand, you could ask for the DM to allow you Spartaness for you. But, serioulsy, Tower Shield + MK.... -4 on attack rolls... That just hurts... I'd go for Heavy Shield + Spear, just that. Reach and a decent AC against closing opps. That and Short Haft would get you a nice 1st lvl fighting style. One that is poorly covered in D&D. Or you could go for (if money is availble) MG + EWP: Elven Thinblade for 2d6 18-20/x2 crits... Both can be considered subpar.

Well, unfortunatly, this isn't the way MG works. I am a personal fan to it, but only for flavour and the fact that your weapon has more HP and is better for disarming other guys. As I said... Flavour.

#Raptor
2008-01-28, 11:47 AM
The spiked chain is finessable, and it's two handed. The rules are completely clear here: light weapons can be wielded one-handed. Common sense isn't a good argument for DnD rules: common sense suggests that getting shot 20 times with a crossbow would kill you, but it won't even slow a 20th level barbarian down.Heh, thats pretty much what i was just about to answer before I read your reply.

@Kioran: I'd view it as RAI.
The folks at WotC might have simply had no idea how a Kusari-gama works (and to be honest, so did I untill I looked it up, despite having some martial-arts experience). Looking at some of the other weapons in the PHB, this regulary seems to be the case. Lets see... Two-Bladed Sword? Orc Doubleaxe? Gnome Hooked Hammer? DIRE FLAIL?!? What where they thinking?

I can't blame you for replacing the spiked chain with the Kusari-gama. Its not a bad houserule.
But TWF'ing 2 Kusari-gama's doesn't seem any weirder than the dire flail to me. So yeah, I believe they intended it to be a onehanded (light) reach weapon.

The question isn't can you or I imagine it - the question is, is it possible that some of the folks at WotC could have imagined it to work that way.

For me personally... well. Wielding two Kusarigama is something I doubt much people in the real world could pull off. Thought few people in the real world could survive getting clawed, bitten and swallowed by dragon either. So, for me it wouldn't be game-killing, but each to his own. :smallsmile: